CHEMSESSIONS N°14

[Music] Welcome to POSVive Podcast, a podcast for HIV positive people, their friends, family and allies. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back everyone to the KEMS Sessions. KEMSession number 14 and our first POSVive podcast of 2026. I know we have been away since you know the start of a year, but KEMSX has not gone away. Yeah, that's true. And we're back there folks. And you know it's a heavy topic. It's controversial, it can be weighty, but we really need to have conversations about it because it's become a real situation in our community. You know, I keep thinking back to when I was at the gay health forum last year and I was asked to kind of give a reflection on the national sexual health strategy. And so when I was reading this 80 page document of what this sexual health strategy is for the next five years, I found myself shaking a little bit where anger I suppose because there was only like one bullet point on KEMSX and there was not really definitive about what they were going to do about KEMSX. And the reason why I felt shaky was not only because we've done the KEMS Sessions previously and we heard who KEMSX really affect people negatively, but I went on a hike with my friend and to near a few days beforehand. And we counted off to people who we knew died of a Geoverdose. And we counted to four, four people who died of a Geoverdose. And yet we have this bullet point in the national sexual health strategy that really committed, and I've been into nothing of substance. I was so let down by it that when I was given this five minute reflection, that's all I could talk about. And I talked about one of the loveliest people who I've ever met and he was a very young lad and he was found one day dead in this bedroom, dead of a Geoverdose. And I really wanted to use his story to highlight how big of an issue this is, our crisis for people and how much attention we need to bring to it. So I'm so happy we brought this KEMS Sessions back to talk about it. It is heavy. People can use KEMSX to explore kinks, to have fun, to enhance sex, and we know that that can be used if it's used correctly and responsibly. But we also do know there's another side to it. And I think what we'll try to do today is what we've been trying to do all the time is to try to balance the messages and with those stories. And we have that with two fabulous guests today. Yeah, two wonderful guests, one who we've had on the podcast before, Graham Royal from St Andrews Community Centre. And our newest member, Ralph. How are you Ralph? How are you getting on? So happy to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me. Ralph, you're a public health consultant and all around FabGuy, right? So not yet a consultant. My mind you are. So public health doctor working for the HSC and I'm leading out on the KEMSY survey, so the first national survey in KEMSX and Ireland. So really, really happy to be here. We'll be right back to that survey. And a positive I just promote, a due to consultancy. So I hope that HSC pays you accordingly. Thank you. And, Graham, can we bring you in straight away? You, it's just true positive I've been general. I think was one of the most powerful and impactful interviews we've ever done that has stayed with me. Anyone who I talk about, which, about you loves and adores you and they love how straight talking you are about this topic. So thank you for all the advocacy you have done behind the scenes and in front of the scenes for so long in this. Do you want to kind of discuss in your kind of service the new trends that you see emerging around KEMSX? Thanks, but it's absolutely an order to be invited back in here with every one of you. Because one of the first things was ever mentioned to me when I really started working in this whole area in 2015 was we have to get this conversation going. And it's brilliant our health and this study is happening because it's it's taken 11 years. You've hit upon so much in your introduction to two of you and I've just put a note here you've highlighted the two major emerging teams from 2025 for me. And that is number one, the number of individuals now consuming KEMS in isolation. And there are many deep sometimes dark reasons for that, you know, and again for the complexities this already incredibly complex phenomenon. And that's what this KEMSX thing is. You wouldn't think it in Ireland or in Dublin and those who were in it, see it, but outside of that. And hopefully you know the KEMSX study will actually highlight that, but the other one then is really sadly. Not a week has come by and this is I'm not sensationalizing here. Not a week has come by since October that someone has not mentioned to me, someone close to him who has died. And the silence has just had right to me speak so loudly about that. That these things are not being discussed. Yeah, I remember on the sorry, I remember on the KEMS session I did, which is number 10. That was one of the things I highlighted like there's no no conversations about these things. And then you know when you're when you're supporting someone who has lost someone very, very close to him. Survivors guilt for the isolation loss and isolation loneliness and loss are the biggest teams I work with people. And when I'm doing talks, I put up a slide of the the money on the lane determinants of what is driving the kind of more darker KEMSX participation and chem use. And they are isolation loneliness and loss. And that silence adds to that. It reminds me of a people dying of AIDS in the 80s and 90s that people don't want to bring it out as if it's a terrible shameful secret. So I know even in my world, the people who I know who've passed who've been part of a KEMSX community, it's not something that we ever tied to them when we talk about them. Yeah, that can remain that of that excellent documentary on Vincent Hanley. And I can hold enough to remember M2SA, you know, back in the mid 80s and the corn side of the AIDS epidemic and how his family silence the actual reason why he was sent to America. And you know, and this isn't for one second damning families or anything, but you know, there's no mention of KEMS, you know. So we're not getting any numbers about this. I was talking about Ralph about it like that these figures are not being highlighted. And yet in the summer's coming up, right, and music festivals and I've worked at the motor festival and stuff. You know, within two hours of the motor festival starting on that Friday afternoon, on the big screen behind the main stage was high-strand MDMA, please be careful. But yes, there are people, you know, there are fatalities happening. And I am again, I am not sensationalizing anything, being tabled about it, creating a moral panic. I only talk from the experience of working with people. And this is what's happening. And it's again, for the isolating people. And on the last time I did the number 10 KEMS X podcast, numbers of people contacted me and from the country, I can't believe what you were talking about. I thought I was the only person, you know. So you're absolutely spot on. It's retrygaring so many traumas for individuals, but also for the community as a whole. I don't think we should brush past this because if we are hearing about so much debt, right, if me as one person can think of four people, you know, Veda has people in their lives, UC or clients, talk about it all the time. Surely there's a number with that that would shock all of our lens that is this phenomenon that's happening and people are dying from it. And yet there's very little harm reduction happening, just little to no outreach happening. Where is the resources, where is the well being all of this, but the reason we're not collecting the data on debt related to geoverloses or whatever, it's because we're not collecting that data. Did you want to give kind of and that our listeners understand why that is? I'd one question I genuinely cannot answer because I mean advocate and at times agitate and highlight this. I have a theory a little bit of a theory. It's like I think it's got to do with the isolation that you're talking about too, is that oftentimes people come into this community, feel this great connection and togetherness through these Kimsex parties, but go through this process that ultimately leaves them drug addicted isolated and alone. And I think oftentimes their death is not at a Kimsex party. It's not attributed to this scene, but the negative outcome started at that party. But when if a young person dies or just anyone dies unexpectedly or on the wrong, a post mortem does happen, right? But as part of that, as the toxicology report doesn't look for G. So if we're not collecting that G is the thing that killed someone, we're not collecting that G related debts. Therefore we can go to the Department of Health saying give us money, people are dying, you know, it's. So it's really a structural issue and then a very individual issue as well. Graham, I have a question about isolation, right? So you're seeing more and more isolation within the-- and really just connecting to what you are saying. Anytime we hear about cams and the communities 'cause people feel that connectedness, the intimacy, that feeling of, do you know being part of something and having their mates? And especially if you're coming from Kerry to Dublin and you're just coming out as gay, you're like, "Woo, five somewhere, all these gorgeous people." And drugs are making sex way better because you grew up without any intimacy 'cause you were afraid of being called queer or fat, got to be in bed up. How did we go from this force feeling of connectedness of grade sex to maybe smoking met while you're still from your house? Tina, 'cause no one's ever mentioned met me. You know, it's all was Tina. Tina, yeah. That's been, that's been, we were all, and language is so important because you know, if someone, if an individual engages with a service undergone, okay, well, what do you mean? Are you injecting Christian, methamphetamine? That person's gonna go, right, this person does know what I'm talking about, and they're not going to come back. So language is so so slanting. Slaming tene. But I think that when someone. and listen, the vast majority of people who engage on the Chem-Sexing, it is a very enjoyable, pleasurable, disinhibiting. I'm a former experience for people, I'm very positive. But there are those, and again, this touches upon that, again, those deeper, underlying issues that are then tapped into and triggered the more someone gets into the scene and gets into the Chems themselves, G and T, G H B and Tina. And, you know, a cocaine hit is 350 on dopamine. A Tina hit is 1200. Okay, walk us up, comes down. And when Tina comes down, it comes down very, very quickly. And when someone has been set party for two or three or four days or whatever, probably very little sleep and suddenly, what's this feeling? Why am I thinking what I did when I was eight years of age or 19 or whatever? And you go, I don't like this. And that's where people then, very more than likely, continue to what I call self-medicare. And it's addictive, right? It's a semi-medicare. It's a psychologically addictive substance. G, H, B, a very physically addictive substance. So there's a huge difference between the two there on that one, right? But the vast majority of individuals engage in Tina's much more prevalent on the scene than G, H, B. Really? Yes. For the first two years, for me, anyway, right, 2015 to mid 2017, certainly the vast majority of first time engages was G, H, B, but from the summer of 2017 onwards. And for last year, right, 51 new people who engage last year. And just a breakdown of that is that of that 35, sorry, 51, you know, second, T related was 43. Wow. G related 31, all right? No, in that, that would say B, T and cocaine, T and methadron, T, G and ketamine, you know, yeah, absolutely. Very few people just take one substance. Are we talking about slamming or smoking more? Certainly slamming is increasing, right? And there are again, complex issues for that. There's the fetish about it. There's the intimacy of slamming people are being coerced into it, right? It's seen as something forger illicit. So there are money, you know, and it could be just down, I'm not getting what I used to get from small container. So I'm going to start slamming, right? So again, like I said, area on all parts of this, there are so many complexities to it. But I think that it's people's response to the come down. And that deep, dark place that they are brought to that, you know, was on very, very small fine print, the first time they ever experimented or recreationally or used any of the chems, right? Everyone knows the positives. And first of all, educated, you know, cohort of individuals, very few of them know the downside of the chems and the scene. And that can then lead to people being very vulnerable and open to exploitation. And that's one of the really dark areas that has really come to the foreover. And it's not just because it was COVID, but over the last number of years is the exploitation that is going on out there in relation to people. Can you give us exploitation seems a bit abstract or incensed, right? When you say, because it could mean many things as quite part, could you give it maybe an anecdote or something or it doesn't have to be a specific case. Have you seen death becomes her? Yeah. You know, when they say, now a warning after she's already taken the potion, that's what I'm getting from it. All right. Listen, the first one that comes to mind and again, these would be some of the extremities. But again, these are the issues that I'm working with. The reality is, yeah, is where someone might be put under. And when they come true, they are being raped. And that's wanting itself. But what can also come from that is that that has been filmed. And that person could then be blackmailed. And the effect of that for an individual, because, you know, not everyone who is on the scene is a gay man. I'm not quite a few heterosexual individuals who would classify themselves as being heterosexual. But again, have been drawn to the scene and, you know, the openness and the inhibitions being literally blown apart when you take the camps. And they're not aware of the consequences or complications of what they may be involved in. But again, I am working with a number of people. Can that individual and have done a number of talks across the country alongside a very good colleague, Derek Bourne from Enzerd and some of the teams that we would be talking to there and some of the groups as in the Shia Kana that given them those scenarios and go, well, can that individual who's been raped at a paratino hotel or someone's house or whatever, and who has been blackmailed can they come to the police and report that. And chances are they can't. The can, of course, present, but are they going to do that? And they answer that sadly in most cases as no, because if they press charges, whatever, and doesn't investigate, well, then if it goes to court, they're in the paper. And if you're a professional or working class area or whatever, right? And that is in the paper of your where you've been and what happened. You know, so the perpetrators of this violence and that's what it is. They know they're more or less safe than known is going to go forward with this. And let's be honest, I think the queer community, we have an interesting relationship with the police to be honest, right? Not the tarnished piece I can't generalize to some really great allies. You know, I think GeForce, they're doing great work if that's the name. Scridge. Yeah, it's a great name, right? GeForce. But at the same time, we also hear horror stories and the history of the police and the community that alone, dealing with all the internal shame of coming with sex, going to a sex party or being raped at a sex party, you know, and doing drugs and all that fair wrapped up in it. It's a concoction to make us not want to report this, but then the perpetrator could be a serial rapist. It's just mind-boggling that's happening. Under is grooming going on on a power play and people are being coerced into the scene by what has happened, right? I'm being again, exploited. And certainly the exploitation of escorts and trans escorts is horrendous. And I want to also bring out the issue of intimate partner violence. Please do. You know, a study, a really good study into intimate partner violence within Samsex Coppels in America refers to IPV or IPA as the double closet. It is not talked about. And I've looked into this quite a bit. There are higher rates of intimate partner violence, domestic violence within Samsex Coppels as there is in heterosexual couples. And yeah, it's only in the recent campaign, which is a really good campaign that Samsex Coppels were actually used within that campaign, which was great because I've had to sit with people and go, what do you call what is happening to you? And there's an added power play of say, if someone is HIV or even if they have not come out, you know, that coercive control psychological abuse of, well, if you leave me or whatever, I'm going to tell people you're HIV positive. I'm going to go to your work and tell them that you're a gay man. So there's so much more power play. And again, I work with people who have unforstly presented to the guard and have not got a good response back. Like in one case, which again was, you know, you're a man, aren't you? You're a man. Man up. But to look at the world that we're living in, look at the news right now, the Imagine Triggers that we're all consuming through social media about Epstein, Trump, Prince Andrew, and no prosecutions, no one being arrested, nobody being called out on the carpet. You filter all of that down into the culture of a sex party, it's really understandable how people feel powerless to do anything about the rapes that they're experiencing. It's a really good pie, and again, I am being completely honest a couple of weeks ago, one of the guys, he relapsed and so listen, what happened? I don't know, Graham, I just, you know, park and true it, and I just said to him, you know, you're reading the newspapers at the moment or watching your news or whatever, and you know, I just, it's that effect on you at any level, and it was the Epstein thing. Yeah, and we talk through it. I find it very hard to be treated. I think anyone who's experienced Charlottes' Exhibition, we know it's like epidemic levels around the world, and especially in Ireland, and then see no accountability, the survivor's not being listened to, Prince Andrew is getting charged for giving government secrets away now for actually the rape of young women. It's extremely, extremely hard, extremely difficult, and then the heaviness, we ingrain the way we think it's conscious or unconscious, and then it can lead to behavioral issues. And also, I think we have to have a lot of sympathy and compassion for people who relapse, because it's part of the recovery journey, isn't it? Absolutely. I think that's why people like you are so important, and you know, people to reach out to people in the community, because we're like, what do you think, sort of that relapse? We're not judging you. This is happening, let's start from here going forward. I think we really need to, because it's a very hard recovery process, right? And like for someone to engage, like we're a community drug team, the Royals Community Drug Team is a community drug team established to address the heroin epidemic in the South University in the early 90s. And for someone from the LGBTI community, GBSM, MSM community, to come into a project in the South University is incredibly brave. And they will come in, and it's like they have an own core of guilt, shame blame. I never thought I'd wind up here. Look at me, I'm an addict. And when we start talking, you know, I'm going, are you really an addict? Are you self-medicating? And like, you know, people come in, they're so anxious, so tense. And I go, I promise you, within five minutes, you are going to be relaxed. And it's about breaking down that guilt, shame blame. Again, that it does underlying determinants that have been trusted upon the community from day one. And that's what you start to break down, because as Gabor Matis says, addiction isn't a problem, it's the attempt to solve the problem. And to say to someone in that compassionate and pathic way, listen, it's not an addict. It's a horrible label. So yeah. There's so much healing even in that. I've never heard that before. I've heard it said differently, but when you say it like that, it kind of hits you a little bit different, but it's, it is the case. You know, like people just see the person and the substance, right? But not the reasons as to why that person is behaving that way. Like as I said to people, you know, I said this to a guy yesterday, would we be having this discussion 25 years ago? And the issue, because he's on the scene, and the issue is no. It would be cocaine, it would be ecstasy. I'll call. Right? Yeah. But it's this new phenomenon since the late 90s, which has, you know, come across the world. So it's just another way of looking at it. Right? That why is it that TNG are confined to this community? And as David Stewart said, it is responding. And what he says to answers, I would actually say it's responding to questions within the community, you know, because if you have an answer, well, then do you really know the question? You know, can I ask you, if someone is self-medicating like so many others do, but let's say functioning, what is the alternative? That's a really good question. Right. And the second medication against or four, and like, again, one of the teams over the last number of years, and I touched upon this the last time we spoke, is neurodiversity. There are higher rates of neurodiversity within the LGBTI community than the generic, the general population, sorry. That way I call general population generic too. Yeah. You know, and if you're working with someone and, you know, they've been two or three days on Tina and, eh, I'm sitting down and I'm relaxed. I'm chilled. I don't feel bored. I feel like I did the session last night with a guy and this, he, he says to me I'm working six days a week. And I said, oh yeah, he's working five days in his job all day Saturday when he goes home at night. He's having a few puffs and he is working until two or three in the morning. He's literally working 18 hours a day, six days a week, right? But he's actually using, because he contacted me at last Sunday and said, can I please come in and say this week and need to say it. And he was in arm, I'm using a lot of Tina. But when we broke it down, he was actually using us to actually work. He's using work and Tina. Yeah. That he's able to focus on it, right? So just, I think that the neurodiversity, to go back to your question, the neurodiversity is that it calms people down. The madness is in their head that it, the feel calm and the word on a head when they say it, I feel normal. But people say workaholic a lot. I grew up with that expression because you know, there might have been a lot of alcoholics in my family, but they were also workaholics. So they have that, I guess, a shield that protects them socially because they drive Mercedes and you know, live in nice houses. And so workaholic was always something to aspire to be and we still have some workaholic. So I might aspire to that myself at times. But it is, you know, as a workaholic, believe me. But it is a form of self-medicating as well. And I find that my thing can be a mix like you are. I'm not smoking Tina currently. It's not been my experience. But self-medicating and working at the same time or using work to self-medicate, I can relate to you completely. And I can think of friends of mine who have had amazing educations while I've known that they have been using a lot of Tina, for example, or really excelled at their job for a short while, you know, while I know that they have been using Tina all day every day. Yeah. And for me, if someone say, you know, six months physically addicted to the GHB, taking 2.5 mills every 90 minutes, they are not taking that for any euphoria. They are not taking that for any incredible sexual experience or any incredible social experience. They are literally taking that to stay off withdrawal. Yeah. And withdrawal from G is absolutely horrendous. In extreme cases, it can be fatal. For someone using Tina to self-medicate, as I would say, it could be in relation to undiagnosed or unmedicated neurodiverse condition, or in most cases, to stay off that withdrawal, that darkness coming into their head, that they're having a couple of puffs that they don't want to go into that condom. But, you know, it's only literally kicking the condom in the rope because it is going to come back eventually. Isn't it true that Ritalin is an amphetamine or whatever? It's like met in a pill, basically, right? Obviously, much more controlled and manufactured. But it's basically given people with ADHD, that clarity of mind, right? So you can see how people feel, quote, "normal." Like one of the unfortunate kinds of consequences of it is that, and again, a lot of the individuals who would engage with me, you know, are in very good jobs and stuff like that. So, financially, they can go for that assessment, right? Which is expensive. Those that are not as affluent, they cannot engage for that assessment for ADHD or whatever other neurodiverse condition they may have. And what's staggering for me is that of those who have a controlled process of assessment, diagnosis and medication. In 2024 to 25, either 11 individuals who went through that process, only one of those have relapsed. Wow, that's amazing. There is no access to neurodiverse, the neurodiverse assessment through the community sector. You are saying about the one that's highlighting all this, right? Getting into trouble sometimes, but anyway, community mental health are adverse to addressing neurodiverse. neurodiversity. Are you being told by services, Graham, can you get the GP to refer that person again, but not to mention neurodiversity because it will not be looked at? Wow. And yes, we are seeing huge reds. right across the population only the LGBT or GBMSM. And this, to me, this is the next thing it should be on the same level as trauma. And for people working in addiction, it's all around trauma and formed cares. We should now have neurodiverse informed care. - When I was a kid, you are either a good kid or a bad kid. - The ball by disease. That was as far as it went in terms of diversity or neurodiversity. I'm sure things are quite different now. Ralph, you would have a different perspective. - Yes, dig a young man. (laughing) Get in on the conversation. (laughing) - So let me bring it in, Ralph. You, we've been screaming for so long that there's been a dirt of information around chem-sex or data around chem-sex. - That's what's going on. - We want to get dirty. Because we know we need data to advocate, right? We really do. There's no policy without data. So first of all, do you want to give people kind of an overview of the research that you are doing? But also from your research previously, what research is out there about chem-sex in Ireland and what can that tell us about our current situation? - If I could tell us anything. - Not course. So thanks so much, firstly Ravi and Veda for having me on to talk. And it's an honor to be with both of you and also to be on with Graeme. And actually I can't just thank Graeme enough actually for how much he has helped in informing the survey and just how much he's doing for this issue in Ireland. It's actually quite incredible. And that's already coming through on the survey. I can't really give the results more than that, boss. Already there's a huge amount of support for Graeme. So I suppose just to highlight what the survey is, which is the first national survey on chem-sex in Ireland. So it's building on, there was a previous survey done in 2016 by Ronin Glein and a group of people working in the gay man's health service. And that was a really important piece of research. It was kind of the first, it was quantitative piece of work, like the first piece of research involving statistics, you could say, on chem-sex in Ireland. And that was based on people attending the gay man's health service. There was over 500 people that filled in that survey. And about a quarter of them reported using a chem-sex drug within the previous four weeks, I think, or no, previous year, I think it was of kind of completion of the survey, which I think was used to a lot of people. OK, this is actually-- What a four is huge. What a four is huge. So as I was told again, this is a really important issue. The thing is, since 2016, Ireland has changed hugely. There are other pieces of research looking at chem-sex in Europe. And they would say that Dublin was a relatively late adapter to the chem-sex scene. Like we're not London or Berlin or Paris. But now we probably-- maybe not quite at some extent, but we don't really know, I suppose. So it's really important to have more data. Certain, like, stressors, you could say, are the same in Ireland. There's still homophobia. This arguably-- certainly a lot more transphobia. Certain things are better, particularly in the world of HIV. We have things like SH-24. There's a lot to celebrate. But there's also maybe other factors, like housing is an issue. And many other factors that affect people and may affect how people use chems. Racism. Racism. 100%. 100%. So the idea of this survey, it was from-- there's a group of incredible people working in the HSC Sexual Health Department. They're out at home. Yeah, no, shout out to them all. So led by the amazing professor Fiona Lines. And Fiona and her team is Caroline Hurley, Jean-Aidwoods, Rachel Matrusty, Nicoloconical. Nicoloconyl, all fabulous people. And together with another icon, Derval Igo, from Public Health, they kind of realized we really need to have new data on what is happening within Ireland. So that was back in the summertime. And kind of over a period of months, then we were planning, like, OK, well, what questions do we need to ask to get more information about what is happening? And we deliberately didn't want to ask exactly the same questions as before. Like, we weren't interested in like, oh, how many sexual partners somebody has had, over a given period or things like that. We weren't even necessarily interested in exactly the proportion of people using chems, because we specifically wanted to hear more from those using them. But we wanted to find out, like, firstly, what kind of population are using chems? Like, where are people using them? Is there some Dublin? Is there in rural areas? Like, what ages are the people? Are they people that are from a particular background, et cetera? So that services can be better designed. And that's really the key thing is that there is a need and urgent need for better services. One of the other key aspects is mental health. People's mental health be they people within the queer community that are using chems or that aren't using chems. Because certainly, I suppose the theories might be that there are people that are using chems and having positive experiences and are using them to have great sex and connection. But there are also people that may be using them in a way that may have just more vulnerabilities in general. And I think something that has-- when talking to people and even my own experiences of the healthcare system both as somebody working in hospitals for a long number of years and as a person myself, as a family member, as a friend, is that there is a massive crisis within mental health care in Ireland more generally. So we wanted to figure out what are people's experiences-- what are people's mental health experiences and what are their experiences of mental health care, both people using chems and people that aren't using chems. And then kind of lastly, we wanted to find out what chems people are using and what are people's experiences of chems services and the effects they're experiencing from chems be they positive or negative. Yeah, it's a fantastic survey. I feel to know, have you felt it over yet? Not yet. It's well worth doing. You could see it has it been informed by a PPI, public-private investigator. Because you can see that there is a bit of community voice, whether it's you, Graham, or someone because one of the questions that I really liked was something on paraphrasing, you'd notice Ralph Boy, it was kind of like, if you are a party, how would you help someone if you see them go under or whatever? And it was kind of nice because I think that started that we need to collect it. And it'll help us inform toolkits then for the community. Because this is not other than people don't do chems. It's about harm reduction ultimately. So it's a really great insight in what's working for people who are engaged in chems or what's not working. Can we answer that question? Because since we bring it up, what do you do if you're at a party and someone goes under? I think that you would need to look at the-- Because not every chems expert is the same. Yeah. Yeah. And again, say those that are far more stable and managing their participation and use, they would very possibly be someone there that's making sure everyone's OK. Or that kind of unwritten contract between those that are at the party. But again, especially with the individuals I'd be working with, which again are at that the current of the scene, and more chaotic. Is there someone that's going to mind people in that situation where it's literally an open door? And people are coming in because there's a dealer present. And again, this is the reality of it. There are a number of apartments across the city. And I have absolutely no doubt in other cities or towns across the country, because this is not a Dublin-centric phenomenon. That if someone gets into difficulty, they are put out the door. I have had phone calls from hospitals, from garter stations, of the picked up someone and of giving my name a number. And that individual has been put out of an apartment because they've gone under. And again, not everyone who goes under, because into that slow sleep, some of them go feral. And the last thing anyone wants is someone scream and shout and be non-predictable. That person is put out. When you say mind someone, that's the point. But what can you say about CIG? Because again, it's the first two or three hours. You know, right, I've taken G at six o'clock, so I'll have me next mill or mill and a half at seven o'clock. But if you're there two, there three, there four, and you've not had no sleep, you've probably had a range of substances, of camps, that, OK, it's half three, I've had a shot at half two, so time for another shot. You could be sitting there. And this is where, because the delusion is such a kind of a common factor with people. Did I have a shot? Did I have a shot in the last hour? Or I don't think I did. And they take another shot. And yet the puppy had one five minutes earlier. And that's where the risks of overdose happen, right? Because again, the unpredictable nature of the cocktail of chemism, whatever, and lack of sleep and food and stuff, right? So the risks are highly increased. And again, like a back day, it's one thing about in the party situation. But if someone's doing that by themselves and said, the run is Zoom, party room, or watching pornography, or whatever, did I have a shot recently or whatever? That's when risks can happen. And that's why I think some fiddlies are happening. But the thing about the safety person is people are a new couple of years to go, oh, I'd be the one that makes sure everyone is OK. And that the runny, they're getting the right amount of G. And there's no one taking advantage of anyone. and farcely so much. those people are now in a chaotic situation and they are not minding people and nobody is minding them. And you know what I think again commonly discussed is that paranoia and delusion, everyone in the room was talking about me, everyone's you know what are they putting in that G you know. And that conspire of someone's mind to a really dangerous place. So you know when someone starts behaving, no one wants that and they are not politely asked to leave. You know. Oh my God. I could ask a million questions based upon that. But first of all, I want to hear from you because I will call you the hostess with most sisters in general. Now it comes like Sparrow. But what do you think works when you're hosting? You feel like people are a little bit off. And I know it's a different situation when those drugs involved. But you know, can you give any tips to our listeners about what you think might work? Well, in general, as a hostess, when things are going left with an individual, if there's a window there for me to find out what their story is, it's normally how I try to go. Like if there are an argument or upset about something or you know what's like as Graeme said earlier, what's driving that? What's behind that? So I think in general, that's a good way to deal with conflict. But as a hostess, there's so many things that come to mind. I read this amazing post earlier today by Acon, which is a HIV/AIDS organization that Robby and I worked with in Sydney and Australia. And it was a great post about party planning, essentially. It was about how to be a good host, as we used to say all the time. But it was about planning the details of the party to build in some safety measures that might not usually be there in a more chaotic situation, which are things like clear notes on how to get in and out of the venue or things like which one that never occurred to me before is where the pets, what's happening to the pets? They're going out to the doggies on this three day vendor. They're going out to the doggies, you know what I mean? Like just stuff around that. Having, for example, a number of hosts, because people's moods change or situations change or the host goes under. So this idea of a tag team of two or three hosts where you are now the host, I'm no longer the host, I'm now just going to throw myself into the party, but having a clear plan around things like that. Please grant me when they get in there. I've often got phone calls. They didn't do night or early into the morning, right? Of people just looking, grand listen, something's kicking off here. You know, I could be someone going under in that kind of ferreels there or whatever. That's about getting the namelands, you know, and it's always better to err on the side of safety like right? We can't do that, Grimm. We can't get namelands. There's no way we can get namelands. And when they're not the police, they are not going to confiscate our resties around. They're here for the safety of that individual. That is what is paramount. If someone hosts a party in their apartment or a hotel room in their name and something happens, a fatality, they are done for manslaughter. Well, I did not know that. Yeah. Because it's if it's their apartment or house, they will host them. And if something, and again, these are the extremes, but the extremities are happening. We have to discuss them, right? Can I ask that just as a practical, if I was hosting and someone went under and I was afraid of calling the ambulance because I, do you know when you see ambulance, police and fire brigade, I'll come in that one sometime. Could you just say just the ambulance is someone going under for drugs or like it doesn't have to have the police involved? Yeah. Just what should that's what it is. Yeah. And just to listen, be honest, tell the ambulance guys what they've taken, they need to know that information, right? One of the again, a reminder of one particular person that engages with me. And to see them, they will get a text about five, half five of where a venue was happening. And there's a 10 or 20 euro. This is something completely new now. There's a 10 or 20 euro charge sent on revolutions. And you are given the address of the venue. And yeah. So that's happening in Dublin at the moment as well. That is not just someone's house or apartment or a hotel room. That is now a warehouse. Wow. And people are making money that way. Yes. Obviously, people selling drugs are also making money, but now people are making a lot of hosts making money as well. Listen, this is capitalism and this pure problem. I just got to say as I capitalist will be capitalism. Yeah. And listen, sorry, just on the safety thing because it's really important because again, this comes back to an experience I had that one particular gram it's ground. We don't need to get the ambulance. He's asleep. He's in the room now asleep. He's calm down and went right, will you just go in and check him. He come back and he's scrimmly, fine, he's snorring. And I went, now you have to get the fucking ambulance because if a person was in that deep, deep sleep or snorring, that's their body starting to close down. Ambulance has got to be to be called because that person is in danger and all of it. It's so easy if you're high as someone else is high to be in denial about these things, isn't it? So having these clear indicators are when to call the ambulance is so important. And I think this is where it reaches so important. People need to know this. I don't think this is readily known. These conversations. Well, we're a culture of binge drinkers as well and drinkers in general. So this idea of oh, he's grand, he's asleep now. And that's that's what we think of as being the state of the state. And right across the board in relation to drugs and chems Irish people and British people are very different to Europeans in my experience that we want to go to them as quickly as possible. And guys would say to me, Graham, I want to get as fucked up as quickly as possible. Especially if you have insecurities as well, right? And all of this. And like, and that, this is where the sociality, because it's not just about chems or about sex, a huge part of the parties. And this is where the isolation thing then is really important right for people that are doing it by themselves. But the sociality of that environment is so important. It is so important. And the amount of talk in the cause of it, because people can relate to who they're with, right? And that is such an important part because that's what attracts people to the scene is that I'm with my own people here, right? And so that's a huge factor. And I think absolute credit to the kinder group. Yes, that it's not only peer support meeting two or three times a week, but the social element of it. And I have, you know, I think they've done the that walk and span. You know, recently, and the dolphin got the various places down the country where, but that whole social aspect of it is so, so important. Can we just say for anyone listening, kinder is a group that meets in outhouse and it's a support here. It's a peer group support. Yeah, people who are using it. And that's, it's true that the 12 step model, right? You know, and that's important to say, right? And I think I'll highlight as well that solcher are starting off a Kimsek support group as well. And that's for people who are absent because that, you know, and that's very, doesn't that's absolutely that's them, right? But that's another support. It's great that these supports now are happening and especially peer support because an individual knows right then on my story because I can relate to that and they can relate to me and that is so, so important. Especially if you're isolated, you might not want to go to a social group initially, but even having that one person might help. And Ralph, if I can bring you back in because we're talking about the sociality of Kim's initially, right? And then leading to the isolation. And we're talking about kinder which is based in Dublin. We're talking about, you know, the previous survey that was based in Dublin. But of course, Kimseks isn't localized to Dublin. Of course, it's a capital city. We're gonna see lots of it. But what do you know from your public health experience, from the data, or even anecdotal, I don't know, like what's happening outside of Dublin? - It's great. Crack-rubby. (laughing) - Cozzie's gone hand on. Cozzie's gone hand on her. - Oh, Kim's better than Dublin people. - There's no problems outside of Dublin alone. - But, it's, no, it's really actually such an important question and something we really wanted to answer, I think because there really, there is no real data there. And I think what's also quite shocking is how limited the services are. Now in Ireland, generally, but like particularly in rural areas. So like part of the work in putting together the survey was kind of scoping out, like, well, what services do exist? If you do have, if you do want support with your Kimseks, and unfortunately, like outside of Dublin, there honestly isn't any specific service for people experiencing Kimseks. Now there are the sexual health center in Cork. They've kind of said they would be keen to take and Limerick is well to help people, which is fantastic. But kind of after that, for example, it's really just kind of the look of the draw, you could say based on what mental health supports you might be able to, or addiction supports you might be able to get locally, which can vary hugely. And I think that is so problematic. And the services in Dublin are seeing people from the top of Dunne Gaulle, and that's just nice. Fair for people living in rural Ireland. I'm from rural Ireland. And it isn't just, I suppose, that if you're from a rural county, that is just so much harder to receive support. And when you think of the barriers it takes for somebody to access support, if you have to take a day off work to travel up to Dublin, that's a massive barrier for so many people. Yeah, and it's really important to talk about that. And I think even like where people live can affect, for example, like the mental health care support taken getters in the public system. One thing we kind of wanted to figure out in the survey is also where people are using chems. Like because if you or somebody say that is from tipi-rary, but you're coming up for a chemist party the weekend in Dublin, your access to public mental health supports will still be based on your address in tipi-rary. So it's important that we actually know where people are living so that they can get the supports they need. And how do we do that? I hope to feel like people, it applies to people living with HIV, I think as well. Often it has to be peer support, and it has to be peer to peer support because the services don't extend far enough for them to have actual services. I think the community as a whole needs to speak up as well. Because again, that silence, and I've highlighted this at the game and health conference, and when I speak at LGBTRI service and stuff, I always call these conversations not happen. The not only like I touched upon to really dark areas, but not a one is, or I mentioned deaths, I mentioned the isolation thing, I mentioned IPV, intimate partner violence. Rape, I can't silence. The amount of individuals on the work of my experience serious sexual assault and rape on this scene. Because again, that's happening to our vulnerability and exploitation. And again, we're getting into something that people struggle so hard to talk about. The total concentration is so important. When you said that, this is not my ego, it's just that I think the truth that I pride the last couple of years, the only people holding up science that are about chem sex and looking for chem sex services are us. Yeah, and we're a very big community, I mean the queer community, not us. And you would think other people would care. Like it's almost like listening to the hot potato situation. It's like the two of you and the stuff you're doing, I'm just absolutely delighted to see on the HIV campaign, and listening to yourself that morning, driving up stock and traffic. You're only think more than an early or something. But it's almost like you're the act up in relation to chem sex, you're the only ones that are highlighting this. And we struggle to do it too. To be honest. It's heavy. It's heavy. It's just not denying it's heavy. But it's important, we kind of let people die in our community for no reason. And we know statistically that people in the HIV are more likely to engage in chem sex. It's very much a health issue within our health issue. And it's for many reasons that we talked about, you know, issues around intimacy, community, connection, not having people don't care if you're undetectable or unprep, you know what I mean? It's all of these different things. And it's chicken egg, you get HIV from being a chem sex paris or you get it before a bubble. We don't have the data that even the back nut up so much. But it's something that is very much within our community. And we're not going to hide it in the corner because it's my stigmatized or small. It's something that we actually say, actually, no, this is a health issue within our community. That's showing a light in it in a non-judgment way. And say, come talk to us about it. That's what we're here for. You shouldn't have shame. And if you think it's getting to problematic use, please go see someone and these are the pathways. And we're going to fight for extra pathways for you. And can we say also if you've experienced rape, please come and talk to someone, get some help, talk to friends, don't try to go through that on your own. I think it will drive you further into addiction. Most rapes are not reported. Most rapes are not prosecuted. But to be honest, most rapes are not even spoken of. Yes. You use the term there, "fordor into addiction" to me, "fordor into self-medicine." Sorry. And, you know, sorry for being so evident. No, no, no. Or even, and listen, come here, the, you know, the Dobbermer Crisis Center, absolutely phenomenal service, often incredible support for people, right? Self-medicine. However, self-love, though Graham. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. But, you know, certain services are not open to people if they are perceived as being in active addiction. Wow. Oh, yes. OK. If someone wants you to talk about mental health, someone wants to access community mental health services. Again, from my experience of various community mental health areas, a person has to be at least six months, drug-free, camp-free, substance-free, sober, before a referral can be sent. Yeah. So, I don't you. Yes. I mean, he doesn't. We help people. Oh, you're not a good candidate for light a hell to that doctor. If you want Dr. Pepp, light a hell to that doctor, I can't get the same with the character. Yeah, light a hell to that. And I would ask me that, I say lie. Yeah. Not, you know. But even with that, I'm just wearing a therapy, but just to get therapy. I think it's not so much that even, you know, if someone has done the six months, camp-free and all of that, this is where the cultural competency comes into it. And they may engage with a psychiatrist or a red or whatever. If that person is not tooled up in issues around the community, around sexuality, around campsites, that person, the individual sent me for them, is not going to open up. Because if they say, "Oh, I've been small container." What's that? You're gone. Yep, you lost them. I kind of interrupted a minute ago, going with a question and then it kind of went by the wayside, but it interests me, so I wouldn't bring it up. Oh, I so-- I struggle with self-love and self-care. I think older gay men is quite a common thing. And I think also living with HIV and the challenges, as well as surviving abuse, so many things, that all are themes that we're talking about when it comes to chem sex. So I'm going to ask again about self-medication, is self-medication self-care? I think it'd be really-- that's a really interesting question because you could all-- because what I'm seeing in my head is, on one hand, self-harm, self-injury, and on the other hand, extreme then, self-care self-love. And I think what comes to mind first off-- and this is actually some model I'm going to use now with people. And almost do that, one to ten on both sides, where do you see yourself and your use at the moment. So thank you for-- and the genuinely, when you will do that, I think it's a really excellent point, that I think at various times where someone might be, it could be that self-care self-love, right? But on other instances, then, it could be that self-injury, self-harm. And I'm one person comes to mind, and there's quite a few actually, right? And when life is going good for this guy, he will engage with some friends that he would party with every so often, T, G, cocaine, and would be a very pleasurable experience. And there would be very little of a calm down or a psychological fallout or consequences, right? But if his life has not gone well for a period, he will engage with others, and they will humiliate them. And they will bring him to a pest where he believes, this is where I belong, Graham. This is who I really am. The George. Just get-- [LAUGHTER] You know, all the time, don't worry, I'll tell you. That's my self-preservation, I'm going to go to humor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When my triggers are being-- when Annie opens-- Yeah. But you know, so among areas, among areas will be absolute self-care, self-love, right? But if things aren't going well from-- and that guilt chain blame really kicks in, and this is my fault, or something wrong with me, right? That it's a very-- the same chems, right? The same hotel. But a very different context. And he will, consensually, put out to be absolutely humiliated. And this kind of psychological fall out from that will go on then for a number of weeks afterwards for him. It's very complex, isn't it? I talk into a few-- a couple of alcoholics that just to me, and I found a fascinating, that-- actually, the alcoholism saved their lives, because they couldn't cope. We're coming to terms with the sex abuse to hurt those kids, like losing their families. And actually, it was that escape momentary as it was, but allowed them to live for a few years when they thought they were going to top themselves. And then they eventually were able to find help, because they had to rock bottom. And it's not to say-- and I think it was-- it was the only medicine that they thought that they could kill the king in at the time, cling onto until they eventually were able to find a way out of the vicious cycle of Annie Ism. [LAUGHS] And so-- Or not. That's due to the function. Yeah, sorry. Now, that's why it's so complex. I'm just hearing from the people on the other side when they speak the-- I just don't know where they're side. Exactly. I just do this. And this is how I self-medicate now, I get by. Like as David Stewart said on the chem-sex documentary from 2016, now I think it was. People just think it's gay boys going out, taking drugs, and having sex. It's far more complex than that. Due to the complexity, we need that to help unpack this complexity. What do we want from Kenzie? Like, oh, how many people do we want to gain access to this? What can people in the community do to make sure that so many people-- because do this survey? We know who important it is. We want to get as many voices represented true Ireland. So what can people do to sign up to do the survey? And Kenzie. It's the Kenzie survey, exactly. So we'd really love, like, as many people as possible, to answer the survey. [BLANK_AUDIO] Basically, we're looking for gay, bisexual, and other menu of sex with men, trans people, and non-binary people living in Ireland. Like that is the population, and we want as many people as possible to fill this. - Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. - Republic of Ireland. We would have loved to have Northern Ireland included, but we couldn't for kind of practical reasons. So you don't have to use chems to take part. That's actually really key to mention. We do, we are particularly interested in hearing from those who use chems, but it's also really important for us to hear from people who aren't using chems in the community because being honest it affects everybody within the community, like, you know, and those who are engaging in like chems spaces, like attending like chems parties that maybe might not be using chems themselves, or even if you're not in that bracket, because it's useful to be able to kind of compare and contrast to see like what people are using and the effects that it's having. But the aim ultimately is to build better services. So the more people that fill in the survey, the more experiences we hear, the more diverse the people filling in the survey. Ultimately we can say, well, this is what people want. So we can say, you know, like I am now in the HSC, but we can say, okay, we can get funding and say, well, this is what like people want, for example, like a one stop shop model or people want care in, you know, in a particular way online, you know, peer support and then say, well, this is what people want, this is what we need. And there are kind of models abroad that I think we can, you know, learn from. Like I've spent time in France before and they have like this kind of really nice kind of, yeah, one stop kind of shop approaches. So like in Paris, there's a really grace center called checkpoints and you can basically get like all of your sexual health care there. You can get like trans related care there. You can guess and they have like, kind of like, yeah, addiction support, mental health support, you can guess, you know, syringes, like equipment if that's what you need. And kind of everything is there. And I think there is an interest like say, in the game and health service, like David Fields and the team there, they're doing incredible work and they want to be able to do more, but it's just we don't have the resources yet to have like more David Fields or more grames in this world. But that's really what we want is to have again, like community builds centers, you know, where people feel at home because within the healthcare service, and I'm saying that some just worked in it. Again, as Green was saying, like there still unfortunately is like too much prejudice in the healthcare service at large that we want places that are culturally competent. That's a great clarion call. And we're gonna learn and clear and there's something that we all have to fight for. But I'm gonna ask you one more question Ralph, for you to give the last word to Graham because I think we're coming up at the time. You are a polyglot, is that true Ralph? How many languages can you speak? I suppose it's kind of like a hobby really. No, come on, stop be humble. Like a decent handful I'll say, but come on. How many? You could say like between six and nine, depending on what you, there are a definition for, he's reading all of the surveys. Yeah, exactly. The reason I asked this is because you put a new word, a scale get, right? Do you wanna just say what the word is? No, true, so I was actually a really fun thing to do. So the word for chem sex and Irish that I suppose I came up with was chem-chines, so it kind of literally translates as chem sex. So when we were getting the survey translators and we wanted the survey to be as successful as possible, we got it kind of officially translated into Irish, but it was translated as kind of like Gnese, Huijun, Kermikon, which is like, so much of the influences. Chemicals and it's just not a very like, you know, sexy combination of words to put in a poster. So we said we should just make a new word. And there's actually an official way of kind of like applying to have a word registered. So kind of went about that process and it's now in the dictionary, which is exciting. Wow. It's important to mention actually that David Stewart initially came up with the word chem sex. And I was blessed of met him back in 2017. So you came up with chem-chines, so all those who have sex and con-em-ara, you can now, I got my chem-chines, party. That would be a pretty name for us. Faster. If and when we do, it is needed. Of course. That standalone service is. That would be an excellent name for it. Oh, that could be good for, actually. Yeah. Graeme, I want to give you the last word. Okay. And I've been doing this for all my research participants. I want to give you a magic wand. Right. Because you have to forefront of this battle to be heard about chem-sex or chem-chines. Or chem-chines. So I want to give you a magic wand. Department of Health is listening to you over there. And I'm going to give you all the resources you need, with the HSC. And I know they do think this as an issue now and that you want to address. So this is fantastic. Based upon all your experience, everything you've heard, what do you think the Irish government can practically do? The community have to be involved. And we can do our practical things. But what can the government actually do that you see that we need? Very simple. Number one, a much broader conversation, because it's not happening. Right. And that's right across the board. But services across the country, based on the English model of the club drug clinic, that one stop shop that Ralph mentioned earlier on. We don't have to reinvent the wheel here. Yeah. Right. Heroin wasn't probably-- wasn't properly addressed until the mid '90s, with the National Drug Strategy and the drugstores forces. In the intervening years from the late '70s, until the mid '90s, a lot of people died through heroin, through HIV, through hepatitis. And this has happened then again. OK. There are waiting lists that are too long for GD talks. And that's not right. Like I said, we don't have to reinvent the wheel here. We have a model across the UK, across Europe. We can learn, like Ralph mentioned, the Australia area around. This isn't just a phenomenon in Dublin. We have something that we can work off. And that's what we need to do. It does take money. But listen, prep, how much-- you know, it can be done. We need that. I just hope it doesn't take some absolute crisis or a celebrity or something dying. The put this to give it a gravitas. It requires the state responded to cocaine within 18 months because it wasn't confined. And this is my own personal thing, right? And a community perspective. It wasn't just confined to working class areas, right? That cocaine was across all structure of society. And it was responded to much, much quicker. Yeah, well said. The kind of moral panic that was created in relation to the head shops that was responded to within 12 months. And we had legislation introduced that got them shut down. I'm working on this on a daily basis since March 2015. Because we're the gairo. Yeah. And we're gairo by bai bai. And just one last point, one minute. Because it clicked me on that every year. And like, 2025 was the first year that international engagement was greater than Irish engagement. That for new people, there was 27 international engagements last year last year of new people. And 24 Irish. Overall, in 2025, I worked with 212 separate individuals. Be that one-to-one, therapeutic and support, counseling mark, be it harm reduction, crisis intervention, relapse prevention stuff, but also advocate and unagitate for people. And that's a health equity issue, then, isn't it? Because we need to make sure that everyone who is in Ireland gets the health that they deserve. So there can be language barriers. And that's something they are very passionate about, or people just don't know the services that are out there for them. So they go through it along because they don't know what's there. My fear is that if we have an increase in HIV numbers or STI numbers, that that will be responded on a public health issue. This is not just about people using drugs. It's not just about addiction. It's, again, far more complex than all dandes. And we need to respond to it in that broad consensus. OK. I don't know if all of the listeners at home, but I found this hugely informative. I could listen to you all day long to both of you. I'm so happy that you're doing this survey that we're collecting the data. And I'm so happy that you're advocating and agitating. And we're all in this together. For anyone who feels that they need extra help after hearing this, they identify, actually, maybe I am going to more problematic chems use. How do they get in contact with you, Graham, or where? How can we refer to them? Where's number one? I would be anyone who's listening to this that in anywhere needs at whatever level they are at, right? Or even just a conversation, please contact me. OF5, 1.33, 7536, or [email protected]. I'd be happy to take that call. Graham, you are a straight man, but I think you should be the grand marshal of next Dublin project, can we just say? And for everyone who wants to do the survey, it's man-to-man.ie/chemsex-survey. Everyone needs to do it. The more voice is the more power and statistical power we have, and we can fight for more resources and funding. Yeah, please take the survey. It's really important that we get to hear from you and that the services are tailor made to be the services that we really need. OK, everyone. Thank you for listening to this podcast. It's been-- it's usually important and important for whether Kim Sexx is part of your audience. life are not, I think it's very human. And shows all the obstacles and hurdles that we still need to jump through. Oops. Oops. Okay, everyone, remember to stay positive. It's day medicated. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to Pazify Podcast. If you enjoyed this week's episode, show us your care by leaving a review wherever you listen. And don't forget to follow us on social media at Pazify Podcast for all the latest news and updates.