CHEM SESSIONS N°13

[MUSIC PLAYING] Hello, hello, hello. I'm Tina Burner, and you're listening to ChemSessions at Pawsbyb Podcast. A collection of episodes focused on ChemSex in a queer community. We're so glad you could join us. Let's build a tea honey. Leda, this is the last of our series of their ChemSessions. Wow. Wow. What a trip. Yeah, it's been really good. Congratulations, Robbie. Oh, yeah. It's been great. I think we've covered a lot of ground. We've got a lot of great expert interviews. And we've had great lived experience stories, shared with us. And I've learned a hell of a lot. We really got to interrogate sex and what sex means people, but also what community means for people. Like exclusion can mean for people. What support we need to fight for, what support to work, what don't work. I just feel like-- I can't wait just to really listen to this whole season, because I just feel like we've got so much from it. And we hope that you got a lot from it too. We're going to pivot into something new in October. And we're just going to take the rest of the summer off after pride. Well, not off. We're going to a conference. And we have a couple of things to do. But we'll be back in October with something new. And we just want to say thank you to everybody who shared this story and all of the experts who shared their knowledge and their wisdom and of course to you. We're listening. But also, this will not be the last of chem sexes in our blood at the moment. And so probably we'll be for life. So we're going to keep on the fight for to make sure that we get the support that we need. But also just to make a bigger conversation. OK, so I'm so happy to introduce our next guest. I had the privilege of listening to this guest at the Gay Health Forum last year. And what I loved was just how you could talk about chem sex, bring kind of the academic perspective, or just make it digestible, and make us think about it in a kind of different way from maybe the more medicalised way that we talk about chem sex. So it's just such an important advice to have. I'm so happy to have you here. Everyone, welcome Dr. Morris Naghitan. How are you doing? Hello. It's an active or Naghitan. Uh, why are you watching? Yeah, I did the really good. My name pronounced correctly. That was the way that I say it. So anything that's fine. Anything goes here. So you're a lecturer in University of Manchester. Yeah, ready? Wow. And have you been kind of studying the area of chem sex? So chem sex, about seven years have been doing like this main project now. So yeah. Well, so you're going to be a bastion of knowledge for a tear today. [LAUGHS] Actually. So you are in Dublin. Welcome. Welcome to Ireland. I'm a district property secretary at our time. Thanks to John Gilmore for introducing us, and making this all happen. You just came from a lecture in UCD entitled from HIV to chem sex. What can queers teachers at about morality? Could you just tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah. So it's kind of like two pieces of writing I've been doing. So the first was just a book chapter that is what can queers teachers about nursing ethics. And then the second is based on my book, The Morality of Chem Sex, that we're coming out early next year. And-- Yeah, basically, the basic premise of both of them is that so often we've had this idea of like, oh, how can we teach nurses to better look after LGBTQ even like that's great. But actually, LGBT culture has this really vast archive of caring practices and activism and just ways of relating to each other that I think are incredibly valuable and that we can kind of take lessons from to learn yes about nursing, but then also to learn about society and the kind of dominant culture as well. So yeah, that's what it was about. And I was drawing on lots of previous HIV activism. And then also looking at chem sex subculture and what that can maybe help us think in ways that value those subcultures. Gives an insight into the Manchester chem sex scene, just contextualizing a little bit. So I think I'll probably start about slightly broader. So I mean, Manchester for a long time has been a relatively affordable city to live in. I think that is changing. Like rental prices have kind of gone up quite a lot in the past couple of years. But there is still a really affordable LGBT scene. That's the really affordable queer scene. I would make a distinction between the two. You're on the kind of Camel Street, which is your main commercial gays scene. Many great nights out on that too. Yeah, it's wonderful. It's a great place. But then you also have this whole interconnected venues and nights that are kind of like the queer rave nights that are very cheap. And you're talking either anything from 0, 3, up to maybe 10, 15 pound. And I think that creates a real sort of sense of community. But also kind of some of the cities that have been written about in relation to chem sex, they've maybe sort of had that ability to go out and socialise and use drugs kind of hollowed out a bit. And so you end up in this sort of very London is maybe a very clear example where the gay scene is kind of maybe shrunk a bit, or is very expensive to go out on. So people socialise in relation to chem sex and like Jamie Hakeem, and people write about that. The Manchesterist sort of, I would say, still has both. You can go out drinking, you can go out raving, you can go out and doing chem sex. And maybe there's not quite the same hierarchy of being able to afford a space to host a chem sex party. And that's the reason that the city is. So I think Manchester has, it's only like slightly unique ways of doing chem sex. They're still slightly more egalitarian than maybe some other cities like London. Interesting. I love the expression hollowed out that puts it perfectly. And that's what worries me for Dublin is that the scene is going to be hollowed out by-- Yeah. --and Kens. And the price of going in-- Yeah. Like 100 euro is probably the minimum you go on a night out. Especially with me with shots and with Tren. As I said to you last time, Robbie, we can give you a night out for 10 euros. Yeah, yeah. No. The invite is there. The invite is there to you as well, mate. We can do it. I can guarantee you the night. Let's say a few weeks time, it's £5. And you can find other substances for-- So we can be hollowed out. [LAUGHTER] So-- Yeah. So tell me, Marys, because you were talking a little bit about your research. And you interviewed 20 people, right? 20 people, ganged by men. But you'd done it over a period of time, right? So it wasn't just one interview. You saw over two years, like the day you'd ever had your experiences grow. Or tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, it was a real privilege. I think 13 of them stayed with me for the whole two years, did four interviews. And then, I think, three or four, it was just one interview. And then the rest was two or three. I mean, it was a real-- we were chatting about this just for a while. It was a real privilege to meet people often in their own homes and to get to know them a bit. The interviews kind of became more informal. So one of the interviews with one of the guys, like the last interview he'd like cooked a meal for us. And it was really lovely, because we got to know each other. And I think one of the other things of doing longitudinal stuff is that at the end of the interviews, I was able to set it because we'd got a bit of relationship. What was it like being interviewed for you? And for a lot of people, I was almost-- almost everyone actually-- I was the only person they'd really spoken about it at length, because the interviews were two hours each four times. So that's a bit of a matter of time, speaking with someone. And I think that was one of the things that surprised me that people actually found it quite easy to talk about when they were given permission to talk about it. But there was also just space to talk about other stuff as well. So it wasn't the only thing we were talking about. We strained in all sorts of topics and chit-chat. They weren't necessarily very structured interviews at all. And so it was a real privilege having 20 people to talk with. And also it reflects with as well. Because yes, I was interviewing them, but they would ask me questions and we would talk. And it was a great two years of just having really interesting conversations. We get that here a little bit, don't we? And sometimes we talk to people who come out to the podcast beforehand. And I've been told a couple of times, so I never really get the space just to talk about this for so long. And when people were genuine interest and holding no judgment or anything, it's just having that friendship, key key almost, whereas like anything's on the table and just let us know and whatever. And then we talk about whatever they're happy discussing or not discussing. It's almost very liberating for the people. So yeah, it's great to normalize things. Fisting is the best example of this season. I don't think we ever talked about it. The first time we talked about it, we both were like, wow, if this is a milestone. And now I can't stop talking about it. I don't know. I'm talking about my lecture just now. I don't know if you had any red text or something, but I was talking about Paul and I was mentioning how he met through co-wants and how he didn't realise who it was until afterwards and what he learnt about him and doing that and that's what very intimate activity. So some things that we often hear about inside the Kins, and that's naturally where a lot the conversations have gone, but through this whole kind of season of the podcast we've heard about how it's allowed people to explore themselves sexually and there's been many positives for people. Do you know we have a lot of hang-ups maybe on their bodies or general isolation and there's this community and it may last for a long time, it may not last for a long time. But I guess people, so much, but one thing that we do here is that they understand their sexuality or maybe to expand their sexuality a little bit more, that's the correct way to say that, such as this thing or a bondage, you know they really get to explore things that maybe they wouldn't do so far as this is things that have shown up in your research? Yeah totally, and like people definitely talk about sort of chemisex to explore, yes experiences but also just ways of thinking about the self and other, I think the thing is really interesting though is then like if and how people can or can't bring that back into their sort of day to day life and I think that's where some of the tensions start appearing, you start asking well why can't that way of relating that type of sex, that type of being with the gay men, why is that so difficult sometimes to bring back? And sometimes that's to do with stigma, sometimes that's to do with like kind of what work, forces, uponers and what societies, expectations of being a productive member of society. Yeah, so I think, yes people definitely have those really positive experiences, but then it's almost like how do you drag it back out of that special space? And maybe you can't, maybe there's a certain acceptance that that space is valuable, but then you do then also have those people who had kind of problematic experiences of chemisex for a whole range of reasons, but then it was really because people found it so difficult to speak about sex and speak about chemisex and to do about what they were doing during chemisex, actually it made it really difficult for them to have sex sober because it was so hard to talk about it. So I think what you're doing with the podcast is actually just letting people talk, destigmatising it. I think it's so valuable, I think it's really important that we provide those spaces for people, either just as like friends or actually you've spoken to kind of clinical people as well, but I think creating those spaces where it's more just a conversation without a problem is so important. Yeah. Spaces are a problem, I really like that. So you're a registered nurse and how did that come about? How did you go from being a registered nurse to being a chemisex lecturer? So I started off at Moontopant just when I was 18 and studied BNS and I ended up going into palliative care and hospital care stuff and I loved that. I really enjoyed working in hospital care so I really enjoyed that kind of relationship building. Then my PhD was around, I would badge it as like the ethics of community palliative care, looking at how the relationship developed between the patients. I was really lucky to get that PhD student shift, I just kind of saw it, I applied for it, I got it, I then did it, it was great. It would make it sound easy. I had 10 breakdowns of my PhD. Yeah, the abridged version of it without all the trauma, we're not like that for every session. But it was like an advertised student shift so the project and the idea was set. I had always had that interest in gay men's health and stuff. After that I then was looking at doing more research projects. I remember I was in a place in between Liverpool and Manchester and David Stewart, a bless him. He came into the talk and David Stewart was one of the speakers. I was very captivating speaker but even at the time I remember seeing more trips than this, like you're presenting a very specific version of what comes next is. I think the first thing David shifted his perspective over years. That was what got me interested in doing some more work and I thought there's more going on than just the clinical perspective on it. Also a lot of my PhD had been around cultural theory and stuff. It was sort of a logical next step in some respects. Let's go on to some kind of critical perspectives. David Stewart. I often invoke some of the words and I've done it on this podcast. David Stewart quite a few times because he's had such an impact on me and I understand terms of thinking about it and he was great. Of course he was at the kind of nascent stage. Of course these things are going to be critiqued as we learn more and more. What things has David Stewart kind of said specifically or areas and how do you think that we need to problematize them a little bit more? So my biggest response to David was to the round. I haven't quite started. I mean I didn't know David very well. I'll say that. We knew each other. But I think I would have loved to have this conversation with him. He started out and I think made a lot of difference in a very different social context. His own one and two in London is very different to Manchester. He was the thing that I mentioned to a lot more affordable. The scene is completely different. I've experienced that scene in London and it is much more cutthroat. Before it was incredibly problematic I went to the club my XXL. And I remember being on dance floor and thinking everyone is looking to be looked at but not by you. So whereas the dance floor is in Manchester you smile at someone. 95% will smile back. Does that kind of happy address? That's not my experience in London and it's not my experience to the apps on London either. I think David was absolutely writing into and making intervention in a very particular time and a very particular place. I think as you think about chemistry you have to realise that it's not just this. You can't transpose from London to Manchester. You can't transpose from Manchester to Dublin. There will be certain things that are commonalities of course. But you kind of have to think about why is it like that in Manchester? And what questions might that make us ask about Dublin or Amsterdam? Because Ireland has a completely different history. A very different history. You can't recognise us for years. No, completely different. Right. Maybe obviously. He'll determine if I can finish the subject. If we could finish this subject. Just stay out of Europe. I should be saying darling. I'm going to say, like, decriminalisation in homosexuality. So, obviously, that happened in the 60s in the UK. It was like 93 in Ireland. So, like, we, the UK did most of the AIDS pandemic with like decriminalising homosexuality. It was not exactly the heyday of homosexuality in the UK. So, it was working in completely different legal frameworks. Just in the aromatics. So, I think there are those kind of things. You can't transfer across. You have to realise these kind of embedded ways of being gay and your cultural references and your recent history. How long history is that? I'll, like, you know, you can't tell what's going on there's a maybe. We just like to bring it in. Let's go back to kind of like, researching people over a long period of time. I read part of your book. Thanks for sending them. Now, when I say part, I really mean part. I don't know. It was a hot cover. It was a really hot cover, by the way. Oh, I can't wait to see it. I've seen it. No, not yet. Oh, just show me. Okay. I mean, show me your own. But the thing that really came about, like shocked me a little bit was the actual interview itself with one participant about erotic cherish, the whole idea of that, especially when you think about talking about something about sex. And you had experience where you know, I think one had that kind of a little bit of experience. Oh, I know. Yeah. I feel like you're like in the right of cherish between you and him. Well, it's kind of a pro-dynamic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because he was almost like inviting me back to that one. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you sort of had to sort of almost move swiftly on from it, but it was. slightly because I recruited mostly by a grinder and I think he thought it was a pretense like to be fair to him and I remember he met at a coffee shop and he did this is a pretense by the way for the yeah I mean met at a coffee shop but like in some respects like it wasn't the most productive, strange one interview, it wasn't really the most productive interview with the project but yeah it was quite telling for like maybe sort of the investments that people have in talking your outcomes X and then like how you broach it as some things then do and like yeah it was it was a weird it was a weird dynamic and I say I sort of skip over it quite quickly in the book but if you read like the whole interview there was he did kind of keep on going back to this sort of flirting style that was yeah there was odd I mean like when you talk about sex and stuff with like some other participants like does that certain connection as a gay man talking to mostly gay men like one or two of my that you just kind of understand each other yeah but it's kind of on-stunning each other in a way that wasn't about how sex was each other but like he was he kind of kept on trying to drag you back to that which almost sort of made it so you couldn't actually talk very productive. But the reason why I kind of bring it up in a way struck me in your book and is in the first chapter is because I want to talk about your other paper the per support for sex and how erotic charge may happen there and not to be paternalistic and say it doesn't work and it's one factor that I'd be interested to see what happens so we're not confusing this all and let's go back to another paper that I read and I think that was your PhD if on that mistake and now that this how peer support can play a factor in support of people engaging in sex. I wasn't a PhD actually but that stuff didn't sort of fit in the book but I think I thought there was a lot of stuff to talk about with regards to support and peer support in case that kind of went into a great yeah so join and talk about it like tell us about it. Tell us about how to peer support people who are engaging in sex. So I'd go back to that earlier thing of like actually it was a lot of it was just the interviews almost started to act as peer support because I've got to know them like I mean most of the guy is like we would have the you know the few text messages between the interviews not lots but like you know they would be like how you need to know I so we'd always text message people like a couple of days after an interview and then there would always be like the kind of preamble like you know a few weeks before the next one and these like three months apart but then there would always be like a few texts in between but if you got to know people so then the interviews themselves function a bit as peer support but I think what was so clear there was like professional support and peer support and actually the professional support they don't come out particularly shining examples in the in the in that paper because a lot of the people who really needed support were HIV positive and they were going into clinics and I mean one guy with the way he tells the story and pretty soon that story is in the paper and not in the book. The way he tells the story he was going into clinic he was obviously on drugs he really needed to talk to people he really needs support and he was I've got to exactly what I say about him because I want to make sure it stays confidential. He he he ended up being sectioned because he was very clearly a danger to himself and it's a really sort of difficult story to read and he's fine now but if I'm not mistaken with that story he asked for a help a few times yeah didn't get any help but it wasn't until you were shaken furiously from G with drugs yes that's what they're doing something as well and he was a dangerous person yeah and because he couldn't afford to have G I think that was part of the quote yeah and that's only then when they sectioned him but yes but no I guess not no actually okay so the first time you got sent to a medical ward so it wasn't under a mental health section so first time you got to a center medical ward and we're just kind of given this very medicalized withdrawal so he liked to give him Dazy Pam to stop him having fits basically and then just reducing Dazy Pam and the way he describes he was very over on the ward just went out smoking and then came back for his Dazy Pam and then basically he went to bed and got like no support and then it happened a second time and he was he was sectioned and taken on to mental health ward and even that was really difficult because people didn't know some chemisex so they did get more support but then he said people weren't allowed their phones he was like well actually I had to learn to manage having a phone because that was my primary way into the chemisex world so it was like the minute I am then back out of the world and he gave you your phone back it was like it was like from north to 60 so I think there's some really specific things to learn from professionals about like how to a we're talking about this in the lecture about actually how to assess people but also just how to have how to have these rounded conversations because sometimes assessments can nurses are very good at like these sort of formal assessments and they can sometimes be very ideologically asumptive but yeah he was very clear as with several other people that they needed help and they just weren't getting it and so that was like the professional side of it but then he had the peer support side of it and like sometimes people did have like friends who were very supportive sometimes they were gay men sometimes they weren't and there was one guy who I talk about later on in the book who his like so his best friend a woman like kind of took him in also after having been in hospital and he found it really difficult to talk to and the way phrase is almost something like he's like she doesn't understand what it's like to shove needle in your own one cough to pull and it's like there's no one I can talk to about it so actually he kind of got there was a probably that's probably the hardest interview I've done in my life actually and he kind of off-loved all of the time me and I should never have heard from him again and like you know I kind of understood maybe why he wanted to kind of do that and then like meeting up with me again might have been difficult for him to come back into that headspace but so we had that kind of peer support with regards to like you know you have a shelter you have to be you have someone who genuinely cared for him but he found it really hard to speak about what he was like for him because this didn't have those cultural references so but then there were like then there was another guy who who had really good peer support initially and then went to his GP and the GP was like well we're not going to put your answer to press and twice you're still taking the drugs and then he became suicidal did eventually get a psychiatrist referral but actually the reason one of the reasons why he's mental health came worse is because the friend who's giving me a lot of support was not redeems give as much support so I kind of talk about the the very value of peer support but also the fragility of it because if you're two or three it usually probably would be two or three really close friends and if things fall apart a bit for them then it can fall apart for you but and it's hard to negotiate relationships and maintain healthy relationships when you're you know abusing drugs so it's understandable I think when the the peer support gets challenged I see that a lot and hear that a lot now that we're in this space more people who partners or really close friends who are just so angry at this stage and and righteous anger even for being lied to or you slay or whatever you just run out of compassion and I guess there's the enabling element too it's like where does peer support stop and become enabling I for me it kind of I always see peer support through at HID lands and we talk about the HIV and KEM sects and the connections there but I was assumed per support was live at HIV so you understand what's I to live at HIV thanks to the stigma and to analyze stigma so you are about prepared to kind of talk other people live in HIV and there's a couple mechanism for us and from what I'm hearing is like their peer support could be a friend who doesn't have so much of a connection to KEM so they wouldn't understand what's like the salmon much porn or just to watch porn super high and and what that could mean too so it's just like am I wrong in taking my peer support is or should be or is this a role that people who are on the other side of KEM someone that kind of helped people who just want to have that peer will have the understanding could we have peer support networks as like we see within HIV could we build upon that because one as we see HIV per support needs to be consistent it can be coordinated and there needs to be a level of care for one given peer support and a person getting per support and that takes training that takes coordination that takes funding a lot of the time we can only do so much as community peers or friendship peers so it's just something that has been talked about Ars Ieithio Lblwy. It's a *How Ilowerth Laffeig. Ieithio Lblwy. "Enduro'r d politicianshop that I am a surpr [Geneff yel vaethasized j себя a ACP] Gael 1.11 am yr healed a pweryfyniad dro oedd potato ac F Flour czy Dir Germ sy'n cael ob curious oedd y ffyrddio sy'n gael oedd yn ffyrddio sy'n gael oedd yn ffyrddio sy'n gael oedd. Mae'r ffyrddio sy'n gael oedd. using a way that's never going to be fulfilled. So yeah, I think addiction we can't get away from. And we have to, yeah, we have to give it the weight that it deserves. - Absolutely. - Yeah. - Do you know what I think we're kind of failing that? I think you've all been getting to it. And you mentioned it in one of the papers again, we've got back to your research because it's very pointy into what we're talking about. But you say that there's a kind of a different views or I think you say it's polemic in terms of the more like kind of medicalized pathology discourse or kind of tropical framing of chem sex. And then there's the more like so cultures of chem sex as pleasure. And you know, from that kind of perspective. And what we're trying to be do, what we've done through this whole team is like, where does the middle meet? And because these two approaches, our effect and our way that we talk about chem sex in different fora and a gay drug community. And we find it even difficult to find that balance between saying, enjoy drugs if they're great for you. And you know, you don't have a need. But then there is this like, other medical side to it. But I just think by doing that, where we're not, we're missing something. We're missing something in the middle. And I just want to know what that is potentially. That's something that come up in your, you're taking your book your way of understanding chem sex. God, my six-minute middle. I totally are way of trying to get up. But yeah, I'm just not quite dare where I'm at, but I just think it's. - I think there's, I think to some extent, what I try and do is like, trying to like think what that movement tells us about moving from, it beat, they're being addiction and then also moving over to thinking about it being pleasure. And what do we learn in that movement? Yeah, I think there is a lot, there is a huge loss of nuance. - Well, what I keep thinking too is that you can't regularly say, and I can't say, happy user, and I say nothing. And someone even pointed out to me the other day, yeah, there's been a theme. And it is that conflict, it is that push and pull from us, that you're going snaps and I'm going, (laughing) you know, because G, for example, is so addictive. Not like E, it's totally different. But vibe. So I don't know, I don't want to stigmatize or shame anyone for experimenting with drugs, but at the same time, the momager in me is kind of going, happy user, I don't know kids. (laughing) I'm a glass of wine. (laughing) - E not you, I'm mushrooms. - You're a mushroom. But anyway, yeah, you're right, there's just is, I don't know if there is a way to meet in the middle. It's a scales and it's constantly moving, I think for each of us, you know, alive. - Yeah, depending on different lived experiences. - Yeah, I know, I would probably about say, it is about moving between the two. And actually being able to have that conversation or moving between the two, like I think, you know, unfortunately humans are great at lying to ourselves. And I'm like, oh, like I'm fine. Like you might have been fine two years ago, honey. You are not fine now. - Yeah, yeah, go on with that point, because you're absolutely right there. - Because I mean, yeah, and some of my participants like moved from not doing drugs at all when we first started interviewing to starting doing them in a way that was fine. And not causing the problems, as some of them I still know them, they're still not causing me many significant problems. And then some of the other way around, like actually, they recognize they were doing it a bit too much and they need to slow it down. And, you know, kind of one guy sort of was doing it like every week. I'm going to go to every two weeks. No, two weeks are still not too much room. I'm going to go to every month, but for six weeks. I think people do have the capacity for self-reflection. And again, I think people need that space to, it's really hard to do that on your own. - Yeah, you need yourself control. And yeah, one of the people should be doing this. - Oh, oh, oh. The more brand against self-control. But it really is about controlling the-- - I'm not kidding about my friends. - Well, I didn't understand the words you've said all day. (laughing) But I'm still awake. - Em, I'm just kidding, babe. But, you know, controlling is really what it's all about. And I think when people lose the ability to set some kind of boundaries for themselves, whether it's how much they're going to take or whether I'm going to do two weekends this month or just one. It's such a small move, I think that really can give you though a map out if you want to get out, you know, to start with small steps, small controls and try to stick to them. - Yeah, yeah. But I guess I think it's so important to have those people around us that we can talk to about it, because it's so easy to, when you move towards that kind of a ditch, when things are so easy to like have that narrative or it'll be okay, I'll be okay if I'm just whatever. - Yeah. - And yeah, so I think that's why having people around you, you can reflect with and talk about what your aims are. Not necessarily in a professional way, I think that can be very important. - Yeah. - Some people. - But just saying something to other people, you're making a commitment more strongly than if you just say it to yourself as well, right? Because you're almost like given the pressure of you, given it up for an extra two weeks, to someone else to kind of oversee a little bit as well. - I don't bring you back to the peer support thing really, and it is great, I think that we encourage people to do that. Check in texts, I think, are fantastic idea after you've been on the sash with people. If you're close to them or you follow them on Instagram, a couple of days later, just check in. - Absolutely, I've got friends that I would have known that I've been out all the weekend or something, and Tuesday, Wednesday, just like, hey, how you doing, love? Like, I think it's so important, 'cause it just gives people, and sometimes I would even say, like, you don't need to reply, like, it's up to you. But I think just that people knowing that they are being thought about is really important, 'cause it's not about me. It is genuinely about them, like, it's just checking that you are okay. I'm fine if you don't reply to me, it's my ego will survive, it's my best. So, yeah, I think giving that genuine space for people to be and talk is really important. - Well, look, we're coming to the end of this podcast, but I want you to kind of share with us one of your favorite anecdotes from your book, and then I want you to let people know when we can get to work. - Oh, yeah, yeah, I think I'm going from book, or something. - Really struck you that we haven't talked about that. - I think I think, okay, maybe, maybe the thing that, the thing I really love is, it's a film that I really want to like screen at some point, but I'm quite a family that this is it. There's a film by Warren Sonbert, who was like, contemporary of Andy Warholed, and it's from 1966, and it's called "Banffetter Me," and he has these, it kind of centers around to you guys, but also you can see their friends in a flat, and there's these two guys, injecting drugs and then kissing, and it's kind of quite far house cinema, but it's soundtrack to the Supremes, I don't know. And I think it's just none of that kind of fear of, you know, it was at the time when gaming were just kind of starting to come out and live a life that was kind of, they could see each other and know each other in New York in the '60s. And I think it's such a different representation of what we see about Kempsex now. Kempsex now, so many representations have some sort of trauma, tragedy, less than to learn from, but this form is just so kind of, it's just like, I'm in free. So I think that's one of my favorite bits in the book, 'cause it's such, it's like a 10 minute film, but it's a great other thing. And what's the thing you're asking? - Lend your book, when you get to do that. - So the book is out, it'll be out in New York, like January, every time in New York, because I've just got the final edits to do from publishers, and then apparently it takes six months for them to do something with it. - And tell us the title again? The moral lessons of Kempsex. - Amazing. - Well, thank you so much for being here, for being one of our final guests. And I think it kind of just encapsulates everything that we've learned throughout this season. And what I'm taking is just Kempsex for me, even after all these interviews, it's still that pendulum, and I'm still figuring it out between the medical side and the pro-placer side too. So that's gonna keep coming up in a lot of our, our discussions around Kempsex going forward. - What swinging? (laughing) - Swing your party, so let's bring it back into fashion. - Okay. - Okay. (laughing) - Kempsex. - Kempsex. - Kempsex. (laughing) - With my dignity. Okay everyone, thank you so much for listening to the Kempsex. - Yeah, that's it for this season. - So remember to stay powerful, and stay positive. Bye. - Bye. - I'm Tina Werner. Thank you for listening to Kempsexs by PauseVib Podcast. Please tune in again soon. And in the meantime, don't mess with my man. Loads of love, bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)