Chelsea Gray Proves Why She Belongs on Team USA

Hello and welcome to the Ringer WNBA show. I'm Seria Zohi. I am joined by Stephen Pugeon Gardner. He covers the Chicago sky and the Phoenix Mercury for all city sports and I've been wanting to have Stephen on for a while. We're going to get into a ton of different stuff today. We're going to talk about the teams that are in No Man's Land in the Colipso of the WNBA world right now, but we have to have to start with Chelsea Gray going nuclear in the fourth quarter and in over time in the aces win against the Indiana fever tonight. Just to preface everything, there was a meta debate going on on Twitter and all social media following the release of the team USA roster for the FIBA World Cup, which we'll get into, but the biggest point of contention or one of the biggest points of contention was Olivia Miles not being on the roster and specifically not being on the roster over Chelsea Gray. I've been tweeted about it where I've maybe lean Olivia, but I understand especially with seven new players coming in, going with the calming experience, veteran player that has been on that stage is known for making clutch buckets. Chelsea Gray tonight, with her three-pointer sending it to overtime in the three-pointer winning the game, really just told the world, "Hey, I'm the point, God. This might be a golden generation of point guards, but I am the progenitor and I will be passing the torch when it feels good to me." All right, look, she announced herself. That's just what she does. I think that was my earliest intro to who Chelsea Gray was back in the Sparks days, just knock it down time we shot after time we shot. Flash, she passes yes, but the time we shot making blend with the playmaking wizardry is something that just kind of really separates her from most other guards in the history of all of basketball, which I ever saw as you want to look at. Last night was an example of it. I think on the quiet side, she had those two turnovers in the final two-ish minutes, maybe the final like 90 seconds. One was on her account. The other one was just the past that she wasn't able to catch, and you can see the frustration. But in the back of my mind, I was like, you know, on the road against that team in particular, this is setting up for Chelsea to do what she does best in. Sure enough, she did exactly what she does best two times. I think Alexa, Philippine Mission, it was the first time, so whenever, simply game the overtime and then also ended it in overtime as well. If that isn't the most Chelsea grade sequencing of events, I'm not sure what it is. Honestly, yes, I was going to talk to you about that too. There are, even in NBA history, there are only two players who have hit two buzzer beaters in the same game. Do you want to guess who they are? I mean, obviously Chelsea grade has to be in this conversation. I'm not sure who else it is, though, who is it? Kobe Bryant, who did it twice. One of them in the playoffs, Lakers vs. Suns, game four, and Larry Bird. Oh, interesting. Very interesting. The Kobe Bryant, I guess, makes, because why not? And then Larry is very interesting on the side of that too, because I think that's another guy in the similar light to Chelsea that just doesn't, never really got the shine that he needs to from this current iteration of fans. And then you look, you're going to do your history and you have instances like this that pop up and it's like, you know what? That person was really good. We should have gave them more flowers. So this is what we're hoping that Chelsea, we're not going to allow Chelsea's name to get to that point. Well, I don't think Chelsea is going to allow it to get to that point. Like no more than indication of how important a player she is, then to hit the pull up three to tie the game off a scramble of all things to see, oh, there's less than two seconds left on the clock. I still have time to dribble into a pull up three, get myself an open look. And then the second one was also not a play that was designed for her for her either, but she is always always ready for that moment. It's just something that we know about her at this point, one of the best clutch performers in WNBA history. And I think, I mean, I think it's an interesting moment to pause and have a legacy conversation about her. I think that this is a bit of a legacy season for her. She came into the season talking a lot about that. She was the big voice inside the aces that really wanted to publicly talk about how she wanted to cement the aces as a dynasty. And that being her biggest motivation for this season. And it felt to me less like ego and more, more like resolve like this sort of understanding that they are in a very special place right now, having won three of the last four titles, knowing that she won't get to exist at this peak forever, knowing that very few people get to ever be in this situation. I think that she has a very keen understanding of that. She is also the only active player in the WNBA with four titles. She is one of the rare players who has multiple titles with two different teams. There is only one player in WNBA history, Rebecca Brunson, who has more titles than her in training camp this season. Chelsea Gray, when she was asked what motivates her, name checked Rebecca Brunson. And that came from a great question by Megan Hall from USA today, who we have to shout out. But I think that Chelsea probably not through the active sort of day-to-day minutia of being in the season right now. Probably isn't thinking about this. But I do think that that's a big motivator for her this season. And this is a season which this is her second buzzer-beater game winner like not buzzer-beater, but game winning back-to-back play of the season. You go back to the Atlanta Dream game like early early this season. One of the first games of the season where she hits the game winning shop and then also has the game winning steal in the most Chelsea Gray fashion possible of saying, "Hey, I know Alicia Gray is going to try to get to her left." It's just, it's the IQ at this level. And those things just compound. And I love to think about all the players that she seems to have taken different things from or just kind of seems to emulate. And there's a combination of WNBA players and NBA players in that. I'm reminded. I mean, honestly, I've never thought about Larry Bird. But when I think about Larry Bird, it was really a small forward mask rating as a point guard. And I think about that with Chelsea sometimes because of her size, she's able to drop down and play a lot of different positions. She can guard a lot of different positions. She's like, she reminds me a little bit of Dremond in that way. It's like if you combine Dremond Green and like Chris Paul, except he actually did it in the final, sorry to your Chris Paul Jersey. And then in the back there, sober, seven years now. Sober, what? Sober five years now. That's my bad. That's my bad. But I really do. Sorry. I don't I'll throw it to you in a second, but I do. I really don't want one thing to get lost here. We are in a golden generation of point guards. Caitlin Clark, Paige Beckers, Olivia Miles are doing things that statistically we have never seen before doing things for the league that we have never seen before as far as like putting it under a spotlight. And I don't want to downplay any of that. But when we think about Chelsea Gray's legacy in the future, I want people to remember that Chelsea Gray came into the league at a time when point guards were not empowered to be the faces of these Helio centric offenses. And if you gave prime Chelsea Gray the ball in her hand to run 50 and 20 pick and rolls a day like these point guards now get to, I think Chelsea Gray would be putting up similar stats to what to what these players are. And look, it's not like I'm not trying to like put one against the other. One follows the other, right? Like Olivia Miles idolized Chelsea Gray. That's like one of her heroes, one of her basketball heroes. It's a ladder. It's a ladder. But she is such an important part of this legacy of point guards in the WNBA. And I think that she's gunning and she's bolstering her case every single day of being the greatest point guard to have ever played the game. I think the so play guard in particular is a second language of mine, only second to English. And when we talk about point guards and you talk about the guy that's over my shoulder right now, it's a very specific cloth that the best ever are cut from. They all can blend kind of like what I talked about a little bit earlier, that sense of playmaking and being able to process the game outside the box while also being players that can get the job done on the defensive end of the floor to also showcase that same IQ they use on offense. But also, which is usually what the separator is, being a three and a half to four level score. And that's what Chelsea Gray is through and through. Because you start with the defense and her hands. I think you bash the hands with her. You said three and a half four level score I've always called it three level score. Can you okay? Yeah, what is a three and a half four level score? Yeah, can you get to the strike? Can you get to the free throw line? Yes, talk about controlling game flow and being able to do all of these different things within the floor the game if you're also able to influence whistle and with Chris it was to swipe throughs and things like that. They look like aimless floor fouls But then you get to the six-minute mark of the fourth quarter and this team's been in the bonus for two minutes now That stuff adds up when you're talking about dictating and manipulating the game. Chelsea Gray has all of those qualities the same And I think she puts her teammates in positions to not even receive she doesn't always receive the box scores The statistical measures for it, but Jackie Young gets to the free throw line so often are doing the things that she's doing in the fourth quarter Asia Wilson before anybody else a lot of that starts with Chelsea And it's not always just the assist or the playmaking ability there. So I think that really just tells the story of who Chelsea Gray is Just a winner through and through and I think that This kind of not necessarily resurgence, but this new chapter of her career when she made them move to Las Vegas and everything that's come with that It's not by accident. It's not by happenstance you put a winner with other winners in a winning environment and you get this You get this just kind of behemous this juggernaut that every team is just always searching for ways to try to figure out They're always chasing them and a lot a lot of that starts with just the brilliance of Chelsea Gray It compounds right it all compounds one thing I wanted to talk to you about so obviously offenses are Producing at a level that which we have never seen before right like you have the new rules You have player development improving you have players getting to rest throughout the course of the off season You have the skill level of the players coming in from college you have the influence of analytics all of these things have compounded this season to a point where scoring is at an all-time high and the three best offenses of all time right now are Las Vegas is the Indiana fever Minnesota links Obviously the three best offenses in the WNBA as well, but even you can take the Dallas Wings are the ninth best offense of all time New York Liberty are the seventh best offense of all time All these teams have something in common they all have that point guard, but they also have the they have that combination of You have the point guard that sets your offense That is that sort of heliocentric force that you can you can build an offense around they can score and play make I don't think anybody struck that balance as well as Chelsea has like I think when you bring up CP she reminds me a lot as far as just having that metronome in her brain Constantly of knowing what the game needs, but I also think that one thing that stayed true with her is that she's never lost the feel Like as much as as mathematical as everything in her brain is it all to at all times She's never lost a sense of like the magic of the game and hey This is a moment for Asia Wilson right now. This is a moment for Jackie Young right now This is a moment that costs for me right now. She has always been so deeply Aware of all of that um, and she's obviously the master of it But you have all these other players that are kind of coming up in her ilk All of these off like you are these teams. I mentioned Caitlyn Paige Serena UNESCO Olivia Miles Chelsea Gray um, and they also have Like that four that you want to have and they also have they have that third score As well like is this I mean they and they go about it differently, but I feel like it's also like is this the formula? Is this like what the modern WNBA is going to look like going forward if you want to be a successful offense Is this what you should be trying to look for? I think so and I think you said it perfectly when in having this kind of three-pronged process to it If you don't have all three You're going to be at a talent deficit. You're going to be at an execution deficit when it matters most and I think that I you spoke so well and we've spoken so well in the point guard stuff I would like to shine some light on that front court position Because that's where you really start to look at some of the all-time greats and women's basketball If you have a big they can dominate the game and do so in a two-way manner You put yourself in the contending conversation every given season You put on tanner with that in the modern sense the ability to invert your offense So if you can use your guards and screeners if you could have your big grab and go if you could have your big Just outright initiate offense at times That's where you really put a strain in the pressure on the principal's because now everybody's rolled shift around Guards are used to navigate in screens. They're not used to having a hedge against a big or Even potentially switch at times in emergency situations And similarly bigs are not used to navigate in screens They just want to drop under but if you try to drop under and it's the night where Asia Wilson is filling herself with deep Good luck dealing with that The Fisa Cali is drawn from deep the last handful of seasons good luck going under on those Brianna Stewart has her woes, but recently she's been knocking down her throes if you want to dunk under those That's a that's a tough that's a tough thing to deal with And if you look at Jess Shepard, Jess Shepard isn't necessarily popping the three But if you give her a space and you can see that for the drive. She's taking that space up. Give you one bump A la list of Thomas who is another person that you can speak to with that and It's gg's at that point. You're at their mercy. So I think that's the fun part of where where women's basketball is heading right now because You even look at Alia Boston. I've really enjoyed the way they've been able to invert there With the forwards. Yeah. Yes. It's been so fun to see her add the three-point student But also the growth with the handle navigate in some tight quarters at times and Caitlin or Kelsey What's a sudden inverted basket for her or just keeping it sometimes in dribble handle situations and getting to the cup like That's a separator for teams that have that and some teams have that in multiple space And I think that's really what's gonna drive teams that are ultimately contending this season and going forward Yeah, one of the okay, I actually I want to jump to the mercury because this fits so well Well, we'll get back because I want to talk about Jackie Young and everything like And everything so we won't we'll get we'll get back to this game But one of the things we wanted to talk about was the mercury and a number of these teams, but I do wonder if part of the reason that the mercury traded for Kelsey plum is that they were looking to build a big three that fit This is exact configuration the mercury look the Suns. This is a matte ishbia Team they are gonna want their big three they had their big three last year with Satu Sabheli Lysatomas and Kalea copper now they've recreated it but with Kelsey plum and So far that experiment with her and Lysatomas is working really well They're obviously incredibly small sample size but plus 33 net rating so far together on the court But I think like what you're getting at and what makes this partnership so special is that positional differences just make the game sing like I think When you have a guard that works melodically in contrast with a big And using the pick and roll and the dribble handoffs, which is the best way to exploit the differences There and create those mismatched frenzies that you talked about Once you have that you are cooking with gas and with Kelsey plum in particular I think one of the most underrated parts of her game I think it's why she should be on the team USA roster. She is on the team USA roster. I will For all the guards you can talk about being on the team USA roster I will argue for Kelsey plum being on team USA roster to death simply because of how great not good how great how all time for a guard She is as a screener It's her strength and her ability to demand separation as a guard on screens is something That creates so many problems for opposing defense is especially when she can then Flair out and you can't get for any space on her three pointer at all she can play on and off the ball She can fake dribble handoffs you did a video on all the different ways that they are already playing off of each other because of her ability To read the game when you have two players like that that can both screen for each other both apply downhill pressure Both make plays and one of them in Kelsey plum is Having the best isolation scoring season that we have ever seen in WNBA history Look, I'm not a huge fan of old teams getting older and making risky plays for rentals But I get it. I get why they wanted to bring her there. I get why they thought They could sell her on this because I'm watching this and I just know that this is appealing to Kelsey plum's basketball mind Yeah a hundred percent I think there there comes a time where and I'm speaking as if I'm Nick Urin or that I've been in any of these High leverage decision-making positions. I am not But I can imagine that you get to a point where you have all your analytics You have the age factor that you want to bring into these conversations Just out of respect for the long-term plan and trying to uphold that for whatever your franchises desires are And then there's the basketball side I feel like Kelsey plum is to your point entirely to great to big brain the decision on whether you want to bring your into your team or not. When things make that much basketball sense, you can't not roll the dice. And this is definitely a dice roll considering what's on the other side of the conclusion of this season with free agency for unrestricted free agency. You have to imagine that you think you're able to sell Kelsey enough on the basketball fit with the list of Thomas and Khalia Copper to make her want to say, I'll listen to what other teams have to say, but if I can't see the vision playing out to the extent that I imagine it's going to be able to play out with and stand in Phoenix, you have to think that's something that sells the market and the team itself to her before she even has a chance to, you know, kind of play through those hypotheticals for others. And I think the other part of it which Nick brought up in his pressure with Kelsey is that they felt like her being just in there for a while and being able to spend that time side by side with them is a selling pitch that you can't even put together. It's just something that doesn't for itself and she's actually able to spend that time in the fire with the group. So I think it's all worth it. I know it's tough, but I also think that they don't necessarily see talent in the upcoming drafts plural with the picks that they have that made it make more sense to stand pat versus going and getting who is one of the three or four best guards in the entire WNBA. Yeah, it's an interesting draft. It could be really good. I mean, it will be really good at the top at the top, and I think that they're a really interesting high level role players available at where Phoenix will be playing will be picking. I look at a Clara Strat type of player and I'm like, yeah, look, if Kelsey walks, yeah, you're going to wonder if, you know, running it back with Manika Komakani, Clara Stratk and random free agent that you could get in the offseason wasn't a better option. Sure, at the same time, when you, when you, when that's the risk, like it's a marginal risk, it's not, you're not in the Juju Madison Hanna cap is Phoenix, like you're just, you're just not. And then there's also who knows if Juju even comes. Like that's just a big, that's just a big X factor in all of this. What if Juju wants to decide her own destiny and she wants to wait till 2028 when there's a better shot at like an L.A. team and in particular, having that lottery pick. And now with the call, it's like with the new college rules, it's like, man, she could, you could venture at two years if she wanted to, like not, not saying that she will, but there's a lot of X factors in this trap. So I understand why they made this decision. And I'm also like, you know, like, Kelsey, I'm like, like, this is their cell of like, would you rather do this or would you rather run ISOs? Like you've been doing for the last two years with the, but with the Valkyries instead or look how much easier we can make your life and look how seamless this is a basketball fit. And we fit the sort of like, yeah, we're going to have to figure out our defense. Yeah, we're going to have to find some floor, like a, probably a floor spacing big and those aren't like the most easy to get, but we trust our scouting. That's the other thing. They managed to scale really well from overseas without ever having draft picks. So I understand why they don't necessarily value it as much either. Like it's just, it's just a bet that I'm okay with and I was kind of, you know, when, when the trade happened, I was dubious because it was like, this can't be them trying to make a playoff run like with this. I mean, obviously, granted, obviously they're going to try, but they have a 2.7% chance of making the playoffs. They would basically need the mystics to go eight and seven while they go, well, they need to be mystics to go seven and eight while they go 12 and L. Now they do have three games against the mystics, so they control that a little bit of what the mystics do, but it's incredibly long shot. And I was really confused by it. Then I, you know, kind of took an oppressor and took the first two games and I was like, oh, this isn't about this year. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's the, yeah, that's the, that's the fun, that's the fun part about it right there because it's like they're making the long-term play, they're betting on themselves in the way that we really haven't seen any W team do, especially considering the in-season trade dynamic of it all. You make this trade, you're already in diet strates and you know that, but you're betting on the culture that you've established, you're betting on what all of the players that return from last season talked about in how they cultivate community and the way they evaluate human beings within the franchise. You're betting on all of these things and your daily habits to sell for you. I like to say one of my favorite rappers from Chicago, Meg Jenkins, and he talks about one of his songs. You do too much talking and it sounds like you're trying to sell something to somebody versus it just naturally being brought to their attention just off of the way that you present yourself. And I feel like that's the way to murder, remove it. I feel like that's the way on the different side, the, the way the songs move as well. Let your organization do it for yourself. If you don't really have to sell them too much, if someone is attracted to a certain type of approach, they'll naturally meet you in the middle and there'll be a natural connection there. So it seems like that are already considering how well Kelsey played in her debut with the Phoenix Mercury. It also seems that way, just based off of how well they operated with her Alissa Thomas and Khalid, a couple of Arlen, a floor together, it didn't feel like there was much of any of your turn. My turn, it felt like they honestly shared an IQ in certain respects and that kind of articulated it to their second game against the Atlanta Dream as well. I'm curious what you make of Nate Tibbetts in this moment, you know, he takes a team to the finals last year. I think that he showed his, his, his heft as a modern thinker of the game with how he unlocked Alissa Thomas's game and gave her more opportunities to handle the ball than anybody had ever done. And he's always been a coach who thinks in the future. I think sometimes too far in the future, I think he projects NBA principles onto the WNBA sometimes in a way that's a little bit counterproductive. Like I do think that this, this team, if they had a little bit more size, a little bit more rebounding, a little bit more physicality, a little bit more postplay, I do think they'd be able to counter some of the things that, that WNBA teams do. However, like there's clearly a vision here, this is a type of team, type of offense at Kelsey Plum, would naturally be able to integrate herself into, we're, but at the same, like at the same time I look at Mercury fans, just seem very keen on what the Christy Talliver experience would look like. And I understand fans in the season like this are never going to be a fan of the coach, but I'm just curious what your read is on, on, like how hot is that seat for him? Yeah, for sure. I think if we go, if we go the color out, we go green being, he's in the clear yellow meaning. There are some conversations to be had or read meaning, you might want to look over your shoulder. I would probably say he's in the yellow side of the spectrum of those three. I'm definitely on the mindset that when you have a season that underwhelms like this, knowing this, knowing this is all the blame. Now the blame pie I can get dispersed and told out in many different ways, many different ways that I might not back too much of an eye at, but I feel like, and this is something I've mentioned on our power podcast as well as on the timeline with fans, I'm like, just because team does not meet expectations does not mean coaches the main culprit of it all. I think there is a very nuanced conversation to have about the mercury and why they did not see the successes that they that they set up for themselves expectation wise this season. I think it a lot of it starts with defense. I'm at blaming Christy Tyler for this specifically, but Nativity was quoted saying that he gave more leeway to his assistants, Megan Vogel on offense and Christy Tyler on defense. So if we're looking at the story of the season for the mercury and we're trying to decide on what side we maybe feel like deserves a little bit more quote unquote blame for things. I go with defense because that's the side of the bar that their identity specifically is tied to. You're supposed to have no less than the top four defense based off of what her track record is over the course of her career. They're a far cry from that at this present moment. I think they're 12th in defense if I'm not mistaken. And they've been around there all season and past just the number itself. I think it's the execution level that doesn't feel like it doesn't feel like for me. It's been to where it needs to be. They haven't forced turnovers nearly even close to the rate that they did last season. And I think that ties in for me with the lack of ball pressure, the lack of ability to execute on the ball. And I think that they lost their they just kind of lost that that competitive edge that they played with last season. It feels like when we've seen them at their best this season, they've been kind of been able to chest the basketball at the point of attack, be able to dictate the terms and directions that players are going that they don't let you get to the second side comfortably. This season, it feels like teams can kind of get what they want in far too many pockets of games this season, they don't feel the mercury defensively as much as they did in. That's what feels like for me, it's kind of hung them up the defense and the lack of that is kind of played into the office and then it ends up having them look like a mess at times. Yeah, this was a mystifying problem just from the start of the season, right? And you told yourself, well, when you can become a connie, we'll be back like Yovic is figuring out WNB defense was definitely struggling with that. Rocha is not necessarily a great defender either, all like, you know, Yovic goes back overseas, McCone comes back, nothing changes, you know, and it has been one of those strange, like, I don't know how much you throw away, how much you consider this all an outlier and just try to come back next season and hope that things are just different. But I'm curious, when did Nate give that quote about the defense and about defense want to do this? Yeah, he talked about this and this was like, maybe the first day of training camp, if I remember correctly. Okay. So we have a long time. Okay. [BLANK_AUDIO] asking to see if there's any shakane right going on there. So no, this was at a tie when it was like he was trying to I mean he's always been pretty like pretty pretty good about trying to get his assistant coaches in the spot. Oh, yeah, he empowers, he empowers his assistants in a way that I don't know many other coaches to do on the W side for sure. Yeah, okay. Okay. Yeah, a lot of big question marks with with the Mercury, but I had to get your thoughts on on all of that. Okay, so let's go back to this game for a little, a little bit here because I mean, A, we got to talk about Jackie young and this 22 and O run that she spurred seemingly by herself. What did you, what did you make of that? What do you think was the biggest factor in that run? Jackie is Jackie is the piece that has really shifted things for Las Vegas at a time where we knew what Chelsea Gray was obviously we knew what Asia Wilson was and what she was becoming right before our eyes. We really started to separate them was obviously the Kelsey Plum sparks, but Jackie young being able to step up and roll to graduate from all. Yeah, she's a really good 3 and D player that can do a little bit extra to like no, this is just firmly. A well-rounded basketball player don't put her in the box because she will punch her way out of that with production. And her being able to initiate offense her ability to run picking roles run handoffs make decisions off of getting the paint such a deep paint touch the flat in the defense and then stretching with a kick out pass. The ability to finish inside the 3 point line to be another four level score, you can't go under picking roles with her can't go under on handoffs to try to switch those softly because. She searches out those pull up pockets as good as anybody genuinely one of the best pull up 3 point shooters in the league and it feels like all of the combination of those things in 10 with the foundation that she already had established has really turned her into a true difference maker. She's not a player that benefits from playing with the aces she's a player that helps raise the ceiling for the team and I think that kind of poetry of her skill development over the last 3 to 4 seasons has really been what. Just kind of change everything for this team and make them just unguardable because you can't hide players on her you can't give her soft coverage is you already have to spin defensive capital on Chelsea Gray and Asia Wilson it's like man we don't have much else we can spin on someone else and that's where she comes in and she does what she did tonight to spurn her. That's a big formula that's a big formula yet well she had they they also ran Caitlin and Kelsey through screening action over and over again. With Jackie being empowered to be that pull up threat that you talked about like first play they get a switch on Caitlin she pulls up from mid range hits the shot and then. She gets on Kelsey just tries to get her to the line number of times gets the end one gets another gets another set of free throws gets a pull up jumper. And then you know start spring it out to jewel Lloyd for three start spring it out to Chelsea Gray for three that screening action was so so good for them it was it was incredible to watch and it was like it kind of got me thinking a little bit about so. Like offense is the story of this season right and for Indiana. They've been they've settled into this like offense optimal defense optional sort of system here where even step white has conceded. That they aren't going to be an incredible defensive team but they need to just get better at certain things like against Minnesota was really their back line defensive rotations it was trying to figure out a way to be solid as she calls it right and I think that there are a lot of moments in this game especially in the first first half where Indiana was solid and I actually dare I say defense other like that Jackie that Jackie run was obviously ugly defense wasn't the biggest problem in this game though like I don't think that. Like offense optimal defense optional is a system doesn't really work when you're not doing a good job of running your offense you know like the headline here is obviously Caitlin Clark misses the free throws that lead to Chelsea Gray. You know her her her hit in that first three then there's a turnover where Caitlin tries to pass when she's isolated against Asia Wilson Asia Wilson naturally makes an incredible defensive play because of course she does. Shocker right and I think you know there's a conversation to be had about Caitlin being lays a fair in these moments certainly a game where she was overpassing and this is where Becky Hammons defensive adjustments are so genius because I think that she takes a tactical into account but she's also just such a good player tendency scout her as well like that first half of the game. Caitlin's definitely overpassing but she's getting away with it in a lot of instances she's got the turnovers for sure but I think what Becky did in the second half is she got them to play defense in a way that really punished Caitlin for trying to overpass you know first half it's a lot of. Fletzing and fever kind of getting whatever they want getting the Aliyah Boston threes that second half it's a lot of a lot of like that for on three action now we're going to try to make Aliyah Boston shoot and Aliyah Boston doesn't naturally want to shoot in those positions and they essentially I mean ultimately they got him out of whack and just playing dumb basketball. You know you had KK with three turnovers out of out bounce passes AB had one of those Caitlin had a bunch from like the overpassing not wanting to finish over Asia Lexi had a couple head scratchers but they just I mean they got him they got him kind of right where they wanted them so for the aces it was sort of the story of. Maybe it is ultimately about the defense I think the ACES defense got got got the fever offense a little bit discombobulated but ultimately also look at it and I'm like it wasn't so discombobulated that you guys couldn't execute basic stuff where do you fall on that. No I agree with you I think that's that's the the tactical side of Becky Hammond and not just the X's and those but I think the understanding of players again going back to the conversation we had a little bit earlier point guards when you are that naturally. And you've seen the success is doing that like Becky has you see things a little different you understand what Caitlin is trying to do for her office because you get in those positions so many times before and that you understand the feel for timing of when the press certain types of buttons to switch things up. Not necessarily to take a player out of the game but to disrupt rhythm you cut off the head of the snake usually there's domino effect today and if Caitlin has some turnover. Now all of a sudden Kelsey Mitchell's having some moments where there's a little bit of indecision that there's there's a there's a there's a domino effect that kind of comes with that we definitely saw that I missed that very same run that you're speaking to that Jackie young went on scoring wise like yes you was scoring but defensively the ACES did what they have shown to be for quite some time they've never truly been like a top tier like top three type of defense but what they do exceed in is if you need to stop you can spark a stop in the after time. Our situation and then going one of those three four or five stopping the road kills where they score and get stopped and all of a sudden the game's run the games kind of a momentum flips upside down and all of a sudden they feel and seem unbeatable in certain pockets that's what Becky him and does they they're just a very good timely stop type of team and this was just another example of that in this win tonight in Indianapolis yeah absolutely I think that's that's a great way to put it Becky as a point guard under standing what a point guard want to do and thereby figuring out a way to make her her life difficult it's almost like a dock rivers level of I don't dock doesn't get a good very good rep these days but it's like a like early 2008 dock rivers like lived in Lebron's head in a way that like 2010 dock rivers lived in Lebron's lived in Kobe's head in a way that I don't think a lot of coaches are able to really think it out in that psychological level Becky has been the best at that both in thinking about what her players need but also what the opposing team is trying to do I think she completely like she got in a Lea's head to they're just like okay Lea like I know you don't want I know you know that that floater on that for for on three is the most inefficient shot that you can get to right now I know you want to force it to KKK I know you want to try to hit that corner like do you have the discipline to either be patient enough to try to get it back around the second time or just take that shot and that's a difference to like I look at this Indiana team they have all the ingredients right they're just like you know like I look at kind of like what I think about contenders I think about Minnesota and Las Vegas are on a level of their own New York is in a different level of their own derogatory and then Indiana Indiana Atlanta are in similar spots for me yeah where you have all the pieces but I don't like I don't see it like I see all the potential but I don't see it executed like you have the Minnesota game you're the eight like where you know like Aliah passes up a three in the Minnesota game and and you know like you had Caitlin Kelsey both miss really good looks that you know you're going to live with those looks you had the dream just finally they just they just need to beat the aces at some point and they just can't they just they get they get little brother they get little brother when they play against them and you can feel the hierarchy of the league really starting to announce itself right now in these in these games we're going to get more of them like there's a Minnesota and Vegas. I believe are playing this Sunday. That's going to be a fantastic game. You're going to get Liberty versus Fever on Tuesday. There's some really, really good games coming up that are going to tell us a little bit more about who these teams are and look, they're still six weeks left into the playoffs. They're still 14 games like both these teams can figure it out. But it's very clear like who has who has been here before and who has not like that says that obvious right now. That's what's showing right now for sure. I think the fact that we were able to see both Indiana and to a lesser extent Atlanta do some things on the playoffs stage last season, not necessarily in their full capacity or in the iteration that they're in right now their team. We're starting to see some of those kind of growing pains if you will. We got to kind of go through some things with the team that were intended to be contending with to figure out how to solve XYZ or ABC problems when they when their pose are presented to us whether it be by ourselves or whether it's by certain opponents that can kind of poke in dictate terms to us. So I think this is where it starts to get fun. Like you said, there is definitely some tearing establishing itself amongst the standings right now for sure. And this is where we're really starting to learn and see a lot about these teams. We're starting to learn and see a lot about these coaches within all of this as well. Because you can get kind of comfortable in setting your ways like this has been working for us. This is a this is a habit of ours. Let's continue to write this out. But what about when someone can counter punch that? How do you respond? Do you have solutions? Do you have answers to those questions that people are going to pose you with when it comes meaningful time at basketball? And I think Carl Smesco and Stephanie White have some some answers that they're going to have to figure out for their teams to get to where their potential and expectations suggest that they can be. Well, what is like what are the two things that you'd like to see out of out of each of them? Yeah, for Indiana, I want to see so I want to see more confidence from them. It feels like at times, I mean, tonight was a great example of it. You're on this kind of highest of highs and all of a sudden you kind of get hit with a little bit of a pin in the balloon. And then it's like, oh man, instead of coming out of a time out and getting right back to what it was that got you that comfortable that you would establish. It's like the things they start to compound. Like you said, good things compound, but bad things compound too. And it's when the bad ones compound. If you don't have something or a solve this internal that can put a stopgab to that, that could ultimately be a demise when it matters most. So I want to see the confidence side of that them being able to take the runs that they go on and find a way to either sustain those in the pockets where teams start to meet them with some resistance or just outright find another way to kind of win games. We've seen them win a lot of games with their firepower on offense. But you have to have be able to kind of win games in multiple ways. And if they're able to start to find that down this home stretch, I think that's where they can start to separate themselves. And on the Atlanta side, Atlanta, before you go to Atlanta, two two things on that one. I wonder if harder that is just a way that Indiana is constructed. I think of all those contenders. Like they have the highest highs and the lowest lows because of, I mean, Caitlin's logo threes are a great example of it. She hits two of them in the fourth quarter and it completely gets them back into the game. Alia Boston, because of the way that she plays and like how much play you making is predicated on her style. A lot of her productivity essentially depends on whether the players that she's spraying out to are hitting their threes or if they are finishing their shots. And right now, we're getting a version of KKK tips and that is finishing her shots and KK somebody I definitely think has gotten more of a role continues to deserve more of a role. Like I think they're figuring out their rotation in that way too. Getting a little bit more Tye Harris involved as well. So those things help. However, I truly, I look at Kelsey Mitchell is the only player who I think I trust to get a big bucket where I also don't worry about them doing something that is going to be a high voltage mistake at the same time. Like I was watching this game with my roommate and literally like I'm not even lying about this. I like as Caitlin is dribbling the ball up the floor on the fever's final possession of the game. I go to him and I'm like all she has to do is like not do something dumb and turn it over right now. And I wasn't even saying it from like a place of like not having confidence or I just meant I meant this hey okay cool this game is over. And it's like come on, you know like and I think she has done a lot of work to stabilize her game this year. I think she I really think she has I think that her being more of a threat with her layups is a big part of that. So that she doesn't have to always rely on the past. I think her being more of a mid-range threat. You saw this against the Minnesota links where she would pull back and fake the step back and try to find a passer and a lot of those like one of those went to Alia and she didn't and Alia didn't finish it. So it's like okay like but those are coming along like that is coming along but she's still very much in the stages of figuring out when to play which no right. For a team that you know has has his title aspiration. So that's that's the first part of it like this feels like part of the fever DNA because of their style and because of how young they are. The second part Becky Hammond was calm those timeouts the second there was even a mini run the second there was even the slight threat of a potential fever run she doesn't let it get to the point where like they're up to or whatever like it's like oh you guys have like cut it to eight cut it to six Becky Hammond is calling that time out. Yeah that's the that's the I think that's the just the growing the growing kind of pain side for them right now I think that's also and I want to get your thoughts on this too I think that's where a team like Indiana misses someone like Odyssey Sims being in the room and that's that calm and presence she's been in a fire so many times before a high-level situation is that she doesn't even blink in the face of adversity she just understands what buttons to press how to go about pressing them to a complete different extent than Chelsea Gray because they're not the same type of players at all but I do think they both have that floor general ship cloth that they're kind of individual player dynamic is cut from and I think the way that that wears on the team in a positive light it's something that kind of is missing for Indiana when it comes to whether in some of the storms like we saw tonight against the aces. Yeah that makes a lot of sense um this is not that type of player necessarily but but Nigelini Hamilton was recently waived by the New York Liberty and this is before we get into where she could go I have to do justice to our producers to find Anderson who if he was here today he would be coming on the pod and pouring one out for Banagia Laney Hamilton he is a Liberty super fan and as everybody knows Liberty do not go on this title run without uh Banagia Laney Hamilton there's a great thread on Twitter from Miles Ehrlich about what everything that she has meant to this Liberty team as far as being like the identity the hustle um her relationship with Liberty fans I think that you know just being one of the original players that were part of this run like the I think I mean like the longest tenure your player I believe on on the team um she has a special connection with that fanbase and you know when she came back from her injury and was warming up like they're they're all cheering for her and stuff and Miles had this great anecdote about Sandy basically like saying like hey we need to have a more competitive practice Banagia bouncing on a practice player and like that player had no idea what was coming to them and she just getting getting the easy layup but you know being someone who always wanted the biggest perimeter assignment um being the player who wanted to pick up full court this is all for Miles um being the disruptor that tilted games into New York's favor um and all of that even if she batted like battled the injuries that was why fans embraced her now Banagia is you know I think it's a really tough spot for her because like with the way that she's performing she's a less person in the world who's happy with how things are going for her she's such a competitor um but she's had a very very tough season coming back from what was a devastating knee injury that took her out for the entire season last year and with her and the Liberty and Christa Marco it was clear that at some point like trust was just lost and it's hard to say if it was like what came first was it the chicken or the egg like because she not getting to her then because she wasn't playing was she not playing because she wasn't getting to her then I think that there are nights where you could genuinely make arguments for both sides of that equation I think like her against the aces and the commissioner's cup was complete Banagia Laney Hamilton Renaissance there were also frankly games where she just looked unplayable so it's just it's hard to know but I do think that like for a player who just got waved who can do so many different things for you there are so many different teams that she could be such a great fit for um like I don't know I have my favorites for sure um but I'm curious like where where you like her I think Dallas should be trying to have a conversation yeah 100% on the same page uh just to kind of pick up the baton off of off of your run another lay Banagia and Kayla Thorn unsung heroes for everything that was the New York Liberty championship run team I think the way that they played off of each other very important I think those blue collar qualities are ones that not just get the job done in terms of time on task but it grows contagious now with sudden Sabrina and that's who can defend the little been more comfortable because Bonagia just picked up the ball three force court and forced the shot clock within 10 and now you limit the options that the team has now Sabrina can funnel towards JJ or or Stewie or Stewie can just go switch on the perimeter and you can live with the back end of those results because whatever they get into after that is predictable because the shot clock is against their back like that stuff matters so much. You talk about the story that Miles brought up of Bonagia bringing a fire to the practice player who didn't know what was coming I think that just really embodies who Bonagia is. When you go to Rutgers and you play under C Vivian Stringer for one to even have made that team you have to be cut from a certain type of cloth you have to have a certain type of care factor about defense in particular and naturally what comes with that is winning in a sustainable manner and impacting your basketball team like the story for the story for Bonagia is not surprising when you kind of connect those dots and I think they're 14 like Dallas who has lacked a lot of those qualities especially on the perimeter defensively to have someone like that in the room to go with who they hope to get a resurgence from in Atlanta Smith and Jessica Shepard and everybody else that they have on that team they need that type of injection of blue collar dynamic to their group because they have a lot of offensive talent and that was never a question coming into the season it's the questions on the other end that Bonagia could come in and give them a sense of a song of almost immediately on arrival exactly exactly I honestly I just feel like they need to get easy for some relief there yeah I had a stat I was looking up a stat earlier today on Sony a Citron because I feel like Sonya Citron should have made this team USA roster she is so good she is so good she is guarded more possessions as a primary defender than anyone else in the WNBA and she also holds opponents to 33% shooting from the field which is number one among the top 40 players in that possession in that possession guarded designation. So basically quality and quantity is going on with her she's carrying a very heavy load easy foot is second right behind her and her percentages I can't remember exactly what they are but they're sub 40 like they're they're right there with what Sonya Citron's doing they're very close to what Sonya Citron's doing and when you when you consider also that Sonya is placed for the number one defense in in the mystics and Dallas as far from the number one defense you can argue that easy is potentially even doing a better job for the numbers as well she's been fantastic and she she needs a relief picture yes she needs she needs it holds it needs it because I fear for I fear for his well being if they keep losing games because of the lack of touch and a sense of urgency and just the kind of IQ and field that comes with knowing what to do defensively like the defensive decision making part is something that benign should helps a lot with too I know her on the board just a lot of attention yes being able to understand when the switch takes place and she's off the bar she can kick somebody out like page off of a switch with a big but doing with the timing that doesn't compromise the backside of the defense obviously understanding angles and timing as a help defender like all of that stuff is what feels like it's really missing when I do watch the Dallas Springs play and if you're able to get someone like Benazza for just a couple of weeks to be with your team and impact your defense like that that could be the difference between them being an early out team and a team that maybe makes a run like Indiana did last season and having a chance to potentially get to the finals oh wow yeah I mean look if you get if you get Benazza like 2024 Benazza she's absolutely that kind of game changing player for sure especially for that Dallas team in particular where that's what they need like they have the offense I also still like look she actually still is like a good finisher to like she's been finishing really well this year despite the injuries she can still be a bit of a downhill force she's a really smart playmaker as well she's just like one of those really unique connective pieces that look there's any playoff team would be lucky to have her the aces would be lucky to have her for for depth and to be able to play Steph Talbot a little bit less to be able to mix in some defense with their guard heavy lineups people to go small big user in the post fever can absolutely use her for all the similar reasons as well and set up Caitlyn and and and and Kelsey and like she would be great for their for their perimeter for their for their transition attack balkyries she just fits right into everything that they are like she just she just spiritually is a golden state balkyries to a degree where I'm like look like I don't we don't need more but actually any Hamilton's on the balkyries like almost like I'm like not rooting for that one but any team any team would be like like like you know lucky to like take a shot and see if they could they could just provide help her revive some of what she's been so good at as well like maybe she needs a change of scenery as well maybe she needs consistent minutes but you know honestly just somebody that I'm rooting for somebody that I really hope sland somewhere that you know gives her what she needs to help her find her way back to to being the player that you know we know that she's been she's been capable of being all right once I wanted to talk about we got to talk about the the team USA roster yes it was announced for for the FIBA world cup in Berlin which starts in on September 1st I believe as a first game but the the roster is Paige Beckers, Caitlin Clark, Chelsea Gray, Chelsea Plum, Kalea Copper, Ryan Howard, Brianna Stewart, Jackie Young, Angel Reese, Asia Wilson, and Fisa Collier, Alia Boston. What was your initial reaction? The first thing I thought was the versatility I think the two way versatility is truly a weapon if I had to pick a favorite for style of play and how they can kind of bridge together line-ups with this team and I definitely want to get your answer with this too. My eye immediately gravitates it as it did in March with the FIBA the FIBA qualifying round for them all Ryan Howard. It's such a fascinating basketball player I think the position the position of versatility that she provides obviously the shooting of basketball stuff is great but I think being able to poke at mismatches in from two point range is something that she continues to grow into. The defense is she's special I think the best way I can kind of round that out because I'll talk for 12 minutes not stop on Ryan she's so good but I think her on this particular stage with this collection of talent around her really weaponizes her in a different type of way. I'm really curious about how much Carol Lawson and really Nate Tibbetts will want to play small because Ryan Howard really got unlocked when Carol Lawson went back to coaching Duke and Nate Tibbetts so go over the offense because he started playing her at the four and that's when you got to see this version of Ryan Howard that I wish we got to see a little bit more in the WNBA but this version of the roster now you have like that they didn't have they had to be honest to where it there she wasn't playing but they didn't have Asia Wilson didn't have a piece of collier Aliyah Boston had recently gotten hurt so they're going to have a lot more front front court depth so I think like one of the things that's going to be really cool is just seeing how big they can get with like these with the lineups that they're going to need against like a France or against a Spain. The other things I start was thinking about the original Aces title roster that went back to back is reunited. Paige and Angel was really fun last year and it's always really fun when they team up so that'll be fun. She, Stewie and Paige the Yukon trio that's going to be really cool as well I you know I thought about Chelsea Gray versus Olivia Miles and I think I think you can make the case it's not it like it's not a case I would argue against but I think Chelsea Gray made the great the best case for herself tonight so I don't think that we need to talk about that too much more. I wish Sonya Citroen was on this roster. Collier Cooper to me is somebody who and you know maybe you can make me see the other side of this because you cover her very closely or I don't know if you agree or disagree here but I just she's kind of the only ball stopper on this roster to me and I think that her defensive effort has just been really on and off this season there's been a lot of cheating there's been a lot of plays taken off and you know maybe that's just part part and parcel of this being that kind of season for Phoenix but you know I just talked about Sonya Citroen and what she's able to do on defense I got a little blowback for calling her the best American wing defender in the world look if you want to give that title to Ryan Howard you absolutely can. Gabby Williams is French so after that like I don't know where we've been talking about after Sonya Citroen right because even Jackie Young who's on this team like she hasn't been the same defender as she's been in years past as well and when you consider the fact that like this is like a blip that is in the actual season like I do think that somebody was like the youth of Sonya and like the stamina just really would have like helped them. Yeah I definitely get where you coming from with that I think from me with Kalea and there's gonna be there's gonna be moments where she's definitely challenged with this in the international circuit actually was in 2024 but I don't know if you get the the 2024 gold medal if you don't have a Kalea on your roster and I think it's that sense of timing and the ability for her with the accountability for defenses to have to worry about everything goes someone they can just go and get downhill whenever they want to but For her, there's a different type of physicality that she can play with getting down hill. And the way that that can just kind of, just create a domino for a team. I think it changes things for them if they're having someone like that. Obviously you have it in certain capacities with someone like Jackie Young and you have it a little bit with Ryan Howard as well. But I do think that with Kalea having someone that can just generate that type of rim pressure to the extent that she's wanted to be able to, yeah, it hits a little different when you have that. I mean, if a team like France wants to start switching things and whatnot and you end up with your guard, your point guard on Kalea, that's where they're gonna end up. Somewhere in the paint, somewhere off a postup and it's probably gonna end up in points or free throws if not both of those. So I think that's the type of dictation piece that they kind of have in vision with keeping Kalea on the roster. But to your point, she's definitely gonna be challenged to be more sharp with the defensive side of the ball in the sustainable manner in ways that she maybe hasn't necessarily shown with the referee this season. - I do get that argument because I do, when I think about the team USA roster, I think about having a lot of versatility. I think that's a big reason that Sabrina UNESCO didn't make this roster. We did a podcast with the Kais during the feeble qualifiers where I didn't put Sabrina on this team and I didn't put her on the 2028 Olympic team. And a lot of that was because I just looked at the glut of point guard talent. This was before we even knew the Olivia Miles who's gonna come in and be a generational talent in her rookie year. We just looked at the glut of the talent and I was like, okay, well, you can shoot, but you don't shoot better than Caitlin. You can make plays, but you don't make plays better than Paige, Caitlin or Chelsea. And Olivia at this point, the defense is gonna be a liability the way it is with the rest of the guards. So I don't know how many two guard combo lineups you can actually play in. And if we wanna have that combo guard lineup, I'd rather have Paige at the two than anybody else because she does that better than anybody else. And it was sort of just like, yeah, it's not an insult to her. It's just that she's 80th percentile at a bunch of things that you already have players that are 90th percentile. And with Kyle, yeah, like I do see the point of like, you probably do not have that type of downhill ring pressure especially 'cause that's not really what Ryan does. Like somebody who at her size and her athleticism can go and get you a bucket. And I think if anything, it speaks to the fact that type of player is still such a rarity in the WNDA as well. - It is, it is. It feels like, and now we've talked about this. - It's a lot of you will get there. Sonya will get there. - Sonya will get there for sure. - Yeah. - For sure. We talk about it a lot on our podcast. We always talk about the Elite Slasher conversation. It's really caught in Jackie Young. That's in the Elite category with that. And to your point, Jackie's kind of rounding her game out to where she's a little bit more smooth where Khaled is more rugged in the complimentary way of being forceful about getting downhill and that just being something that's just kind of, it's kind of never ending. Every time she gets it, the threat of that is always there. And she obviously, she can shoot the three bars. She's done it very well this season. The pull up three is still coming along. But I think the kind of incessant nature of, she gets the bar, defense knows that she wants to get downhill but defense also knows that even if I win on this angle and trying to take away her right hand drive, she might just, you know, step past. You know, she might just give me a bump. And now I'm out of position. And I'm either fouling her or she's getting to the cup. So I think that's something that the team still really needs, especially to compliment the spacing that they have. That you can get into your picking roles and your cuts and everything. And I think that's something where she really helps too is the sense and timing for cutting and being able to, sometimes we've ever seen. 100%. And I think where she's grown from me this season, most is understanding that her cuts can also double as offensive rebound opportunities. You might not get it on the cup, but you're in perfect position to use that same bump that you would to post up to then go and get a board. Kind of iteration of tagging up, if you will. And that's something that she's really grown with another way for her to kind of put her forceful nature on the game. So I think that's something that really helps them. They need players that have that certain type of physicality from the non big kind of side of their offense. And if you're looking around, it's really just Chelsea Gray. Kelsey brings it to a certain extent, but I think because of her size, it doesn't necessarily hit the same. So it's really just Chelsea, Jackie, and obviously Kalia that really bring that from the guard slash wing room for them. - Yeah, no, honestly, super valid, super valid. I made an all fee bus snub team. And I told you I was going to make a board. Did you end up making a board? - So I didn't end up getting around too, because I did started and I was like, okay, that's probably going to be some overlap. So I let you run it and then let's see if there's any names that you might have had that I didn't. - So this speaks to just how much talent there is. - For sure. - Olivia Miles. - Of course. - Obviously. - Kelsey Mitchell, obviously. Also just one of those players, it just doesn't seem like, there's like a political aspect of this. We're certain players just don't get into the mix with all this in a way that has changed to me. Sonya Citron just talked about it. Alyssa Thomas, I think is just somebody, especially if I have, you know, Kelsey and Sony, just the way that they would play off of Alyssa, like who's guarding that. And then Sarah Strong as well as somebody I was kind of, I was wondering if one of Juju or Sarah would kind of make this roster as a sort of tag along. I know Sarah Strong has been dealing with her Achilles injury. So maybe that's figuring into why that wasn't done or maybe they'll just wait around until 2028 to integrate those players. But, like, if the baby Yokech is available to me in a team setting, like I'm going to take her. And then I had Alyssa Gray. - Yes. - That's the name of Alyssa Gray. - Oh yeah. - She should, yeah, I mean, that's another, she's kind of doing their three on three for them. So I get it, like that's kind of her niche now, but I think she's great, great on the actual Olympic 12, women roster as well. Sabrina Unescu, Caleb McBride, Neko Gumake, another player, seems like politics there. She never gets to really be part of this. Bre Jones, then I'll, I'd run it out with Shakira Austin and Hannah Hattano. - Yes. So I think Shakira gets a little bit of the, the Alyssa Gray treatment on the three H3 component of things and how she's kind of factored into that part of it for them. So I do agree. And the way she's been playing over the last like seven games or eight games, wow. I think another name that stood out for me is Sonya Citroen. You mentioned her a handful of times. What a fun basketball player. Like someone who can have so much impact. You talk about, we both talked about Kelsey Plum being one of the best guard screeners that we've ever seen. Sonya is quickly starting to find her way into that same conversation. Used in a lot of those kind of same rib screen DHO situations. And you can obviously see her being someone that can set those kind of inverted ball screens. The same way that Kelsey is going to be too. She gets out of there. And I think the speed to your point, the cadence that she plays at is so complimentary to running that type of action with any type of big that she can run it with. She's, she's special. And I think she's going to be someone that finds her way into the international circuit for Team USA and provide an impact on that because of it. I also think more than anything, she is a high level processor of the game. Her IQ is, especially, like you can feel it when you have a conversation with her. Like the way her, the way her brain is working and the way she articulates herself. Yeah, it's like motion picture is going on in her brain and she's kind of speaking through why she makes certain decisions in a way that she operates. So I think big out for sure. Big out at least she grays Sonya Cedron. And the other name that she brought up in Shakira, I think it's someone who will be fun on the international circuit, too, because of her versatility. Yeah, it just speaks to, I mean, there is so much talent. There is for the Americans. It's amazing. Another person that I think has a fascinating scouting job ahead of her is one of the assistant coaches in Natalie Nakasi, because she is like had experience coaching most of the French team who is going to be the biggest threat to USA both this year and in 2028 when they're older as well. We ranked like the top 25 players under 25 and the W. And I think we had like eight or nine French players on it. But this France team is going to be really, really good. Like you have potentially Carla late, Carla late. It's an interesting situation with the French federation there because she didn't come up in like Incept, which is basically their Yukon. And that might impact how much of a role she has on this team if she does have a role on this team because they do have a lot of guard talent. I personally would say it's a no-brainer for Carla late to be on this team. She is a most improved player candidate. The downhill threat that she is has caused so many problems for the players particularly on team USA's roster. So to me, she has to be on this team. Then you have Layla Lacan, one of the best guard defenders in the league, great downhill threat, great mid-range shooter, Gabby Williams, one of the best wing defenders in the world like has improved her game. Janelle Salon, Closer, Dommel Longa. Like that's your starting five. And then you can still have Pauline Estier, Marie Nihonis, Valorio Yaya. It hurts some Iliata repairs is out this year. And look, I don't know enough to know who they'll close it out with after that. But like that's that eight. That eight is giving you a lot. They're giving you a lot of defense. They've got some mismatched nightmares on there. They've got some shooting. They've got some creation off the bench. They have an understanding of the rules. Look, Team USA should win. They're supposed to win. But if there's any team that is going to give them a challenge and you can have that sort of conversation of, okay, if this team played 10 times, like how many times out of 10 would France win? I feel like two out of 10 times. Like I think, you know, right circumstances, they get hot. They shut down the right American stars. It's basketball, anything can happen. Dom Malonga has already shown herself to be able to shut down some of these American stars. She's one of the better Asia Wilson defenders that we've seen. I'm not saying it can happen or that it even will happen. I certainly wouldn't put any money on it. But this French program is coming along in a way that I think forces Team USA to have to send their big guns. Like I don't know if Team USA would have had to send their big guns or even wanted to, maybe would have wanted to wait until 2028 to send some of these players. But I think they know that the world is catching up. Like this almost happened to them last year by the grace of a foot on a two-point line and Brianna Stewart being very, very active in communicating the referee Team USA one last time. So that gap is starting to close. - It is, it is. And I think it's all this fun for all of basketball. It speaks to the level of play internationally that's growing and rising. And France in particular, I think they can space it five out to where it can put a stress and strain on the individual defense because someone might not necessarily be as dug in in the gap. And as you know, all it takes is a crevice for Pauline Asciator to find herself at the basket. And if she finds herself in a comfortability so as she could just go and navigate and get down hill and do all of those things that she's shown to do for the Liberty, Liberty and Drove's this season, that's something that can game bust for you. Especially if you're talking about single-game elimination, you don't have a tomorrow that's guaranteed. If you don't know how to put this fire out or if you can't solve it quick enough and this run persists for an opponent or maybe they set the tone for the game instead of you kind of setting that tone. You find yourself in another situation like it was in a gold medal game. And if you don't strike that same bit of kind of luck and being able to kind of force the game on your will, might be a different conversation we're having for sure. - Yeah, I think the other thing too is that something just happens to these athletes sometimes once they put on their national team jersey. Like they go from, if you are a six-woman, you go to like full-time starter. If you're an all-star, you turn into a superstar. Like we saw this with Gabby Williams last time around and I think that like it could happen with Carla, I think you could absolutely happen with Dom Malonga. It's just something to watch out for, honestly. - Yeah, I think another example of it. I think with the French team in mind is they're captain Valoura Yagi. She goes from being like a seventh and sometimes eighth player with the Mercury tool. No, she's a culture bearer for this team. She is what stirs the drink, whether she's literally in the starting lineup in that sense, or if it's just her leadership and setting the tone for them from the bench before coming into the game and then kind of figuring things out from there with what the team needs. I think that part matters a lot. I think to your point, there is a certain level of pride that comes with when you do put your country's jersey on and you have your country's name across the chest of your jersey, it hits a little different in. I think naturally you spent a lot of time playing with a lot of these players as well over the years. So there's a certain sense of I wrote this bike before. It might have been a while, but once I hop on there, I remember the kind of grooves and the way that the gears turn and things like that. And once you get rolling, it's just like you never stopped riding it before. So I think that's something that definitely hits for a team like France in particular. And naturally they're eager and hungry to kind of add to the successes that they've seen internationally over the last handful of years. And news to say they have it out for a team USA as much as anybody else does. - Absolutely. I mean, I was like men's and women's sides. Like they are actually keeping that all in mind. It has been, honestly, I think sports and gender. And it's been a big French versus USA year in general. So we'll see that continue with the W. Can I just say something before I let you go, by the way? - Listen, talk to me. - Your basketball IQ and your ability to communicate what you're seeing on the court and what makes certain players special, what differentiates certain players from the others, like it is fantastic. Like you are such a natural at this. Like you are so good at talking about what matters in the game in a way that still feels accessible. Like have you, do you have like a coaching background? Is that something you've ever considered doing? - It's something I've kind of sort of considered. It's been more so me just having fun talking about it and being able to parlay this journalism degree into a career and being able to have fun doing it, you know how that goes. So I haven't really given it too much thought, but it's definitely not something that would shy away from if the opportunity came up. And I appreciate it, that definitely means a lot. And naturally, not saying this is just because I'm here talking basketball with you now, but you have it a lot the same. But I think that's something that stands out and something that really differentiates the level of conversation that we're having about the game. And I think there's something that we definitely need more of. And I think also especially specific to you coming from or women about the women's game, you could never have enough of that. So I appreciate you for your many contributions in that respect. - I appreciate you, man, that's very kind. No, but for real though, like I feel like you communicate in a way, I think that like players would respect. You know what I mean? - I appreciate that, thank you. - I think you simplify the complicated stuff and you still make it clear that you know what you're talking about, which is I think kind of what they're looking for a lot of those times. So seriously, I appreciate the kind of words, but I also just like, man, I appreciate you coming on the show and us getting to, yeah, about some basketball. And just like, I feel like I learned some stuff from this conversation. - Like what? - You turned me on car to a totally, I can see that now as well. So yeah, this was just a really fun conversation. And you know, I know we were going to talk about all of these like kind of no men's land teams, but this day of basketball and like the fever announcement, I'll just end up blending itself to a day of basketball that was super fun. And I found myself, you know, I'm a little bit more concerned with the contenders more than I am with anything else right now. Like there's definitely some interesting things to monitor when it comes to, you know, the sparks of the world. It was great to see Cameron Bink, Brink I thought had an important game for her trajectory. I'm enjoying watching Anita Moro kind of show flashes of her potential. - Just real quick on her. - Yeah, sure, we can hit Cam and niece. Let's hit Cam and niece, and then we'll get it. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. - Sure, I'll start with the crib for me, start with Chicago and niece of Moro. She wears her Chicago qualities beautifully. - Mm-hmm, she got that hard hat lunch. - Yes, yes. Her hat lunch, pale blue collar, all of that fun stuff. She brings it all to one sweeping blow. I think she's a lot of what Toronto's needed. All season long in the front court. I think that edge that she plays with, I can never get enough of the two smiles and the floor slabs and the flexes from her. But it's fun, it's fun to see it, but I think it also infuses confidence in her teammates as well. It's a different form of leadership and it's one that you can't wear unless you bring that every single second that you're in play whether it be practice or on the game floor. And I think Anita bringing that up to the competitive level that Toronto can kind of punch up to collectively until the can brings side. I think this is the fun part of what could potentially be a lot of season for Los Angeles with so much going on that's out of her control. I think if they just continue what you brought up it's just to lean into her and this kind of home stretch of the season and you just kind of write that out for her. However far it takes them for the duration of the season. That would be something that's positive that they can kind of add to it. They can look back on this season like, okay. Yet a Kelsey situation then workout. Our organizational lacking of alignment continues to get in our way in terms of trying to turn corners and go forward. But if we figure out how to continue to put Cam in positions and Cam can naturally grow from a up usage and a up different feature in within the office and the defense, that's something you can build around going forward. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Like on niece, I just love that she is somewhere that values what she's doing, I'm really happy for her 'cause it just felt like in Connecticut with her and Rashid Mezzanian, it just wasn't working. They just weren't, they just couldn't seem to get on the same page and niece I think came into this season improved her stamina, really, really worked hard in this off season on developing her three point shot. - Yes. - To try to become the type of player that could fit in the modern WNBA at her size. And her, she's so unique with her ability to rebound from her size as well. And I think it's going to take a while for her to sort of figure out exactly what her perfect niece is. And then in the W, look like she's an imperfect player but she's gotten stronger, she's gotten quicker. And I appreciate that she's somewhere that will value what she has improved on instead of punishing her for the things that she isn't. even the flashes today splitting the double team on Emily Anxler of all defenders and finding he a nurse in the corner for three. Like that is just downhill threat basketball IQ awareness. Like you see these flashes of someone who could be so special. She's fun to watch and I hope she's able to find a home like where she can be a productive WNBA player and I think Toronto's perfect place to do it. I'm really glad they didn't trade a first round pick. - Yes. - It was looking like they were going to do that, looking like they were gonna pull sparks, trading a second round pick to get someone, like Amisa Moro, who's just in her second year, who provides rebound, who provides something that you need. Like Toronto's kind of been a perfect position right now. 'Cause they've got really unlucky with the injuries, but they're seven and two and four, either five of their starters play and they're not set, no, that doesn't reflect their record. They're gonna have a lottery pick in this year's draft and it's gonna allow them to get better. If they can, if they can stave off the desperation to be too good too fast, they could build something really, really special in Toronto. And then with the sparks, look like Cam is, they've already, I mean, they've already done that. They've already paid for trying to be too good too fast, right? And Kelsey Plum is elsewhere now, but I think Cam, I think I'm just glad that Lynn Roberts let her stick it through the late stretch of this game. This was an important game for her development. I need refs to give her a better whistle. I feel like they still refer like she's in Stanford. She had a couple blocks, she had a couple beautiful blocks, including blocking the fate away on the FISA Collier. I do think that WNB refs need to understand it, that's something that Cam Brink can do without fouling. That's what makes her special. She was great. I think that she prevented Olivia Miles from getting to the rim in the way that she normally used to. She controlled the defense in that game in a way that is so special for a young player that hasn't had reps to be able to do. And just hitting the jumpers, looking comfortable, she's just always needed the reps. She could be such a special player. So it was nice to see her have a game like that. Yeah, I think the confidence is big for her. And naturally, you extend the wrong way that you usually have for her in a game like tonight. And you see the potential benefits of it. It's gonna come with some A, you know better than that or A, you should maybe try to approach this a little differently at times, but you don't get to the learning part if you're continuing to kind of hedge that and kind of keep it her in the box to a certain extent. So we saw her be able to kind of spread her wings and kind of fly a little bit today. We saw, what could be, what could be a more sustainable version of herself, even potentially as soon as next season. But you know, again, you just don't get to that point if you don't get these opportunities. And I think to your point, having a direct matchup with someone like the Fisa Collier to have to match up with and do the things that you do in Tenderwood having to worry about one of the best downhill guards in the league and Olivia Miles and be able to affair as well as she did with that defensively tonight. It was special. Yeah, it was, it was just happy for it, it was happy for it. - Stephen, thank you so much for making the time. Is there anything that you want to plug before I let you go? - Oh, yeah, I'll just say you could follow me on Twitter @Steven@stphtnpg3. That's probably the easiest way to keep up with the many different things I'm doing because sometimes I have a hard time keeping up with the many things that I'm doing. But you did mention it a little bit earlier in the podcast that I did have a film session. I did on Kelsey Plums Mercury debut against the Chicago sky just kind of looking at the fit, the ways that she can add to what they've already done well but also kind of give them some punch up ability, the three point shooting, the pull up three point prowess, the ability to unlock a list of Thomas as a screener, how she can put Collier copper at home to play off a close-outs and things like that more frequently. It's a fun dynamic to your point that just compliments peace after peace after peace. And I kind of dove into the basketball poetry of all of that in her debut. And we'll definitely be doing a lot more of those going forward with her being around. So we only look out for those. - That was such a fun video. I really enjoyed it. Like I love the way you slow things down and go over them. And like I just the way that you talk about basketball too. Like you do add that poetry element to it. So I never really feel like I'm just watching a beautiful film breakdown as well. It's really, really well done. I'd recommend anybody who wants to just get smarter throughout the game to watch that and your other videos. Huge fan. Thank you so much for taking the time today. I enjoyed this a lot. I'm sure our listeners did as well. So definitely would love to have you back on at some point. - Sure, I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to it. I definitely enjoyed it the same. Learned a lot, had a fun conversation didn't realize we'd been offered as long as we had. - Thank you. - We touched on so many different topics. It was just a genuine conversation. - Yeah, we'll have to do the post-mortem for the non-playoff teams in different time. I'm able to bring you back on for that. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you so much to Ben Cruz for stepping in to help us with the producing today. We wish Stefan Anderson well as he mourns a loss of Benazza, Leni Hamilton alongside all New Yorkers. But you know what, New Yorkers, you've had a pretty good summer so I don't feel that bad for you. And we will be back next week. Hope everybody has a good and safe weekend. (upbeat music)