Chef Todd Richards!

Welcome to Sky's The Limit with your host, yours truly Sky Estra. Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of Sky's The Limit podcast. Today's conversation is with the Todd Richards. Chef Todd is an absolute icon in the world of food, making waves, bringing creativity and sharing his contemporary southern cooking style from Atlanta to all corners of the world. He is a four times James Beard semi-finalist, the executive chef of Waldorf Astoria at Wanna Buckhead, distinguished two times cookbook author, soul food and culture at Crog Street Market Owner and owner of the new concept curiosity in McDonald's. Today we're going to talk through Todd's story career journey, his food preferences, his thoughts about that Lanna restaurant scene, top spot see frequents and more. We'll just see where it goes today. Welcome to Sky's The Limit podcast Todd. Thank you for having me. Oh, I'm so excited. It's going to be great. The only thing that would be greater that we were just talking about is if we had a little champagne bottle to pop but like maybe after. So if anyone knows me from Atlanta seeing though, I had a nickname called Champagne Todd because my ritual is a glass of champagne and a shot of espresso every morning. Did you do that today? Absolutely. I am obsessed. When did this begin? You know, honestly it probably happened when my youngest son mom passed away. Okay. And when you have to figure out how to celebrate living and waking up every day, you know what other better way is to pop a bottle of champagne and toast, you know, the universe and everyone around you. And then you know, you need a little espresso to get you going. So I mean, that's pretty much how my day is starting. I am on this ride with you. I think my new habit is going to be for starting tomorrow. Yeah, I mean, but just think about it. I mean, like we go through so much stuff every day. If you live in Atlanta, you're driving through traffic, which is a mind boggling thing by itself. You know, you sit at home and you try to decompress and but you have devices in your hand, which prevent that, you know, and you go to sleep and you hear everything. So, you know, we take on a lot of stress and when you wake up in the morning, you should be ready to go and how can you not be ready to go with a good glass of champagne to start? It's a great reminder every single day. I mean, first of all, just the hearing of the pop. And then the hearing of the fizzy in your glass, that already enough. It's like signifying to you, this is a celebration. Then you take that sip and it's just like, you know what, here I am. A second to reminisce and just be alive and be grateful for that. I mean, you know, it's all types of forms of prayer in the world. And it's, you know, it's always a reminder of self and where self is. And that to me is part of the ritual, you know, of a reminder of where self is. Where am I at right now? You know, and what am I doing the rest of the day? And not only how I'm going to make my life better, but people around me live better. It sets the tone for your whole day, your whole life, really, to just start out with that moment of appreciation and presence in your morning. I mean, being a chef is the most selfless job you can ever have because it's all about sacrifice. Absolutely. The sacrifice does not go on notice, especially with you. I'm like, oh my gosh. If you weren't starting the day with champagne and espresso, I don't know how you would do anything. You're right. Right. Um, it's, we're going to get all into your career journey. The crazy thing is when I was preparing for this interview, I'm like, we have so much ground to cover and I don't want to be speed talking the whole way through it. But we're going to hit the high numbers and talk through some interesting things. But your career is just amazing and what you bring in the world, like what I said in the intro about creativity in all forms and just using that for good, your messaging of good, like the good food movement, sourcing sustainably, sourcing ethically, every way that you put food in your life, you're doing it with intention. And I just respect and appreciate that so much and what you do. You know, kind of selfishly it makes a fall the wrong guy didn't like you know, too, you know, I'm no, no, no, no, enjoy you know here. But you know, it's really thinking about the guests in that standpoint that I'm responsible for whether, you know, things live or things die. Yeah, I mean, think about it. I take from the earth every single day and then I put it on the plate and allow someone else to be sustained and live their life. So in a lot of ways, you know, it's kind of, I always say that chefs are probably, you know, the pure definition of insanity because we do all this work. We put it on the plate and we dress it up and soon as it leaves the kitchen, we never have that moment again. I don't care how many times you try to recreate it, you know, we want to be that precise, but that moment has gone. I mean, every, every fish is different. Yes. Yeah. When you really, I mean, thinking of it in like such a granular level too, not only is that plating of that moment gone, but then like you said, like the fish is never going to be there again or like that grain that was grown for that specific mode of being there for somebody's enjoyment and nourishment and like, you're providing to who somebody is going to be like that becomes of their body. Like it's just, it's such a grounding thing to think of it in that way. And that's in this moment in time, like in the year 2026 and you've been a chef for longer than this year. We'll get into, but it's just like so many people see food from a distance from social media or want it to just be seen in this kind of like, Artifice of how it's plated and how it looks pretty and how it looks Instagram bull. But the real thing that is the plate, the realness of all of those ingredients and what you're providing as you as a chef with your sacrifice and you're and you're putting forth some nourishment to another person and then the person being able to enjoy that that's that's what's real about it. You know, social media has a great point about food being presented correctly. I understand that point. The downside of it is is that things are so mass-produced just like we saw Cisco buy restaurant depot at this point in time. So, you know, in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, how many different products that they have and how many of those products are now going to become the same. So, to see a sameness, you know, the cellophane generation that we created that no one knows how to break down a chicken because it comes in the store all with parts. No one knows how to break down a fish, suffer a snapper maybe because snapper is still popular and now bear a moon day or something like that, you know. But we've created the cellophane generation. We created this this instant gratification society and food and that's why you find you go to places that things could be over salted, overseas and over sugar drinks have become sweeter than ever before, you know, across the country. And it's because people are looking for that moment to say that I captured your attention. Yeah. And the great thing about being a chef for a long period of time is that I understand how to extend that period into a dining experience, which is really what the home market, what a chef is supposed to do. I mean, I can't say that any better, but I did think of something funny to add to this. So, one of my friends, Chef Elisa Oliver at Riverwood, I do know her. Yeah, okay. She knows everybody. She's out and about. One of her students asked her and it's not funny, but it is. One of her students asked her if a chicken nugget was a baby chick. And that's where the cellophane generation comes in for me when I'm so grateful that student has Elisa as a teacher to teach them that. No, that's a piece of a chicken that's inside. Like that's a chicken breast or a tire. That's a, you know, we don't know. It depends on the brand. It's a Tyson chicken nugget. Are you getting it from fine street market? But, you know, it's not going to be a baby chick. But also, think about our educational system. I know we're varying, you know, away from the topic a little bit, but think about where it's home, that can school. It's gone. You know, where is German school? You know, it's gone. And then where are the cafeteria lines that they're really are still cooking food and not warming up food? That's gone. So, we've read it this generation of them. We've read it the generation of chicken tenders, which is nothing wrong with it because I love chicken tenders. Anyone knows me? I want you to chicken tender all day. I mean, Richard. So, but we've read it this kind of homogenized society in food. And whereas the sea of sameness has been prevalent and it's up to us as individuals to break up the monotony. You're so right. I'm just really drinking in everything that you're saying right now. And it's, it hits home for so many things for me. One is that I went to school and study dietetics. So, I really was intentional about what I was studying in that way. To and I also was so impacted when I was like younger in high school watching Jamie Oliver's food revolution. Absolutely. And that was like such a groundbreaking show in so many ways where he would go into schools and help re-institute what they were doing in their cafeterias of let's have a garden. Let's teach the kids what food is being grown and like what makes it to their plate. And let's also nourish their bodies with some different things. So, um, fresh foods, you know, but I agree. Yeah. So, I don't know. I'm not that's like, you know, So that is the idyllic dream that could happen, but you're right. I think there's something to be said that we've bred this generation with the actions that we put in place. I mean, I remember there has to be 10 years ago when we did a garden that burches Peterson elementary school off of 20. Okay. You know, we planted carrots, planted everything out there. Then everything grew. We came back in and we cooked with the kids and everything like that. And I can just concede the ideas of them understanding that food actually comes from someplace. And people say, "Well, where can I start?" I said, "Get a tomato plant. Get a cherry tomato plant. Get a bucket. Put dirt in it. Drill a hole in it. Plant it. Throw all your eggs, shells, and all that stuff in there. And just eat fresh tomatoes. Eat fresh cherry tomatoes and cherry tomatoes season." I mean, if you just do that, you've changed your whole idea of food. Get a basil plant. Now you got a basil plant and you got cherry tomatoes. It costs you what, $7? You know? And you get tomatoes for an entire season. You know, right. And if you do that, then your whole idea of what food will change automatically. You'll start seeing it a little bit different just by planting a tomato plant. And I'm not saying that you have to have a space. You can put it on your balcony. You can put it in a window. Which one's sunlight? That's all it takes. Yeah, it's so true. You know, it made me think when we were talking about social media, I was just generalizing that like what people are searching for in this kind of influencer economy with everything is that like just pristine plate and they're not really attaching, you know, touching grass with that. But when you're saying to grow stuff, I wonder if there's anybody doing a series where they're side by side tasting like a fresh cherry tomato off of the plant that they have in their backyard versus like a grocery store tomato that's been, you know, was plucked weeks ago or whatever. And just that has been enjoyment to me when you're having fresh produce and you're just like, you don't even have to do that much to something. Like it is so good on its own. Well, one of the greatest chefs in the world, Sally is not longer here with a Charlie Trotter set that he was a great chef because he bought great ingredients and did nothing to them. Yes. I mean, that's really, you know, just being able to procure great ingredients. And greatness does not mean expensive and I have to really clarify that with people because you, well, yeah, you could be a great chef here. You can buy Poulon Rouge. Who needs Poulon? You don't need a Poulon Rouge chicken. You just need a good chicken. Yeah, yeah. You know, you know, Brian, if we're a day, you know, cook it at the right temperature and that's it. So we're not talking about, you know, rocket science or anything like that. We're just saying just sourcing good ingredients that are close to home that makes sense to you, you know, to feed your family, you know. And then we understand that social media influencers, you know, are part of our economy now, especially in food, but I have to remind all chefs that they are talking about us. Yes. And if you're not influencing yourself, then people have the opportunity to influence you. And you can see that the people that post the most about their own restaurants, their own being, their own things like that, the less influencers actually go to their restaurants. Really? Yeah, just look it up. You'll see that because they have nothing to say, you know, it's the restaurants where they don't have a voice. They don't have, you know, a presence that people go to and they talk about those places, you know, in mass, you know, but places that, you know, have well established, I mean, how many influencers you see go to LeBernardin? True. Well, because they're not going to pay out a pocket for LeBernardin, but it's obviously and continues to be such an incredible establishment with the most talented individual. But you think about the places here. I mean, you see reviewers, you know, which are a little bit different, but still, I mean, you don't see that kind of a societal social media influence on places that really promote themselves better than anybody. How can you tell my story better than me? That's a great question and just put into the ether for everybody listening to is just, what are you not seeing? You're seeing so much on social media, but what are you not seeing? Yeah. Yeah. You know, and that's why the restaurants, you know, I know we're talking about curiosity, but that's one reason why we named it that, you know, what are you curious about? Confute. Well, dot, dot, dot, dot. Did we continue to like our say? Because see, this is what I knew was going to happen, time. I'm like, well, do we want to go back into the day of growing up in Chicago and like, you know, Chicago, Chicago is still influencing me to this day. Sorry, Atlanta, I'm still a bearish fan, you know, not because of anything else that this will air in off season, so you'll get better reception now than later. Yeah. No, no, the baseball wise, you know, I'm split between braze and cubs and white talks, but you know, it's just a falcon to have it one. And you know, I'm a person who like winners. So, you know, but you know, Chicago is such a fascinating city to me. Now not living there. I still believe that it's one of the best food cities in the country. Not the best one. It is one of the most diverse food cities. And it takes on influences from around the world, but still makes it its own. Yes. And it's a meat and potatoes town, but also it's a potato and meat town, you know, where vegetables can be first. And that's what makes it delicious. Growing up on the south side of Chicago is a really interesting dichotomy because where I grew up was between the far south east side. So I have the Latin influence and then the black influence. And so it was nothing different than having barbecue with tacos or, you know, eating pizsole as a kid, you know, and things like that. My sister is seven years younger than me and she learned how to cook greens different than me, even though we lived in the same household. So that's the kind of, yeah. So hers is so colored to me, a straight colored. And hers is colored, scaled and turned out. You know, so. But okay, was this like her influence of like the people she was hanging out with? People hanging out with her. We are neighbors next door. Right, preferences of taste. Yeah. You know, our neighbors next door, you know, every gathering birthday holiday, all that was always at our house. So, you know, and I can remember birthday parties of 50, 75 people at the house. So, you know, we always picked up these other influences. We had a lot of great cooks in our family, both women and men, you know, in a sense of cooking food. You know, our neighbors, you know, extended non-leaf, you know, in the next door, but all we have in down the block. There was a big community of us, you know, my friend and grandma school, Patrick Bayard, his Haitian, and most people understand that Chicago is the one of the biggest places for Haiti and things like that. So understanding eating Haitian food as a kid. And never knew how it was going to influence me to, you know, to write a book like Routart Soul and just for the Caribbean understand why Haiti is so important to the foodways of America. So all these things as a kid is Chicago, you know, my dad worked downtown next to Chinatown. So going there as a kid, dropped him off at work eating a Chinatown, you know, once a week. You know, why do I make collard green fried rice? I mean, again, you know, we got fried rice left over and my mom or dad made collard green cheese, mixed them up together, they're collard green fried rice. I've been eating this since I was a kid. You know, this is what you're doing. This is here. This is your birthday. You got a dish. Right. So, I mean, these are all influences. Yeah. And then the scientific part comes out of just my family being nerds, you know, you know, my mom was a biologist. My dad was a data processor, almost like war games that old movie, where you can see the big old data tapes. That's when my dad did. So, and then I decided my old parents love music. So, I mean, that's how I became what I am today. The formula upbringing is just absolutely mind-blowing to me. I've just, that you could have creativity, openness, and then also have like a science of the mind and there too, like that is kind of the best of all the worlds put together. Well, if you read my cookbooks, you see all the recipes are in even numbers because everyone could do two, four, six, eight, ten. But as a musician, you know, the creative side of me, because my parents put me in music school, you know, I think one, three, five, seven, nine, because that's where chords are. So, it's all kind of number based in my mind how I get to a certain place with food. And most people will say, you know, is it a pinch of this, a pinch of that? Yeah, that's, you know, the basis of it. But when you get down to brass, tax, and understanding how many masses of people, you know, you have to get into that number formula. And I know everyone can do two, four, six, eight, ten. Wow. That, I mean, that is next level. That is, that is making my mind go too. But it's so true. It's just that, like, familiarity of like, okay, I can handle this. Like, I can read Todd's cookbook and I feel like I can accomplish this because I can handle a two, four, six. Yeah, that's it. I mean, everything's written in even numbers. Did you know that you were going to write the cookbook in that way before you wrote it or as you were going on and having to like, recipe test, you were like, let me just make this a little easier for everybody. When I wrote so, they told me that you cannot write a chef's cookbook. You have to write a consumer cookbook, which gave me a different perspective because I am a consumer of cookbooks. Yeah. And a lot of cookbooks that work very, very well, and it's a lot that don't. And I wanted to make it as simple as possible for people to cook. If it's a coffee table book, which it is, they're both coffee table books, but there's no grease stains on it. You know, no, then it's not a cookbook. Do you know, it's a coffee table book. And I wanted to write cookbooks. And so I wanted to have that. I mean, there's a playlist in the cookbook, in both cookbooks. Because you put on music and music as a beat. You know, right. So if you chop vegetables, you know, so you chop vegetables, your chop vegetables according to the rhythm of the music. So I'm giving you a way to. If you're intimidated by chopping, just put on some music and the music will guide you to how to chop. - Yes. - So that's the way I really thought about it from a cookbook standpoint. And then, you know, some of the, you know, and soul, you know, like there's a sea urchin dish in there. You know, and why is that important? Well, it's important because it links it back to Africa. You know, and I didn't not want to tell it that way so forcefully, but I really wanted to let people know, like, you know, Charleston has some of the best sea urchin, you know, you could find, you know, on that South Carolina coast. And why is that important? Why are all these dishes important? Why can't you take collard greens and make 15 different recipes out of collard greens? - Yeah. - Why was my dad so frugal with collard greens stems that he would save him, wash him, and cook them with vinegar, and we had collard green pickles? Why was he doing that? Because we learn how to use everything. - Yes. - So that to me is all those kind of mixed up formulas. And I had a great producer of the book, you know, Sean Shavers, you know, for so Amy, you know, definitely for a butcher. - And Amy last year, I had no idea that that was the collab that I didn't put together in my head. We're at a LaDom's disc golf a thing and now she's for last year. She's awesome. - Amy's brilliant. And she wrote books for some of my great friends like Matthew Rayford. She wrote his book with him. And we wrote "Rupt Hard Soul" in COVID, you know, which is one of the craziest things you can ever do. E.T.M.O. some stress. - Uh-huh. Especially when you write in a book about West Africa to the Caribbean, coming up to Louisiana, veering to New York, Chicago, and out. - Oh my god, and you're doing what this, while the world is like going through it too. - Yeah, so we did it, you know, and then, you know, our producer was on maternity leave as well. So we had another producer come in and say, it was a lot to get this book done. - Was the book already sold during COVID? And so you already had like deadlines of pages or are you? - Oh yeah, we definitely had deadlines of pages. - Oh damn. Okay, so yeah, the pressure cooker was on a high. - Yeah. - And all forms of that. - But you know the thing is about being the chef is that you learn how to do ingenuity. So I took my apartment at Pond City Market for the photo shoot. We took all the furniture out, put it in storage, and we shot the whole, all the photos and everything for the book we shot in my apartment. - Love that. I say troubleshooting and doing things like that, creative thinking in that way, that's completely outside the box. That is the biggest resilience strategy that people can have. - Yeah, only thing is I didn't get my styling credit 'cause I styled all the food myself, but that's okay. - We need to do us another print. - No, another print. - Another edition of this. - I styled all of them myself, which I never imagined. - No, many behind the scenes, you should start posting them. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Clay, Clay, Williams did the photos. He's great, great photographer. But you know, it was so crazy. It's like, I never imagined in my life that I would be styling a cookbook. And we just did it. - I'm sorry, I didn't put that in your intro, that you're also a food stylist. - Good to know. - Yeah. - No, I have too many jobs already. - The list is wrong. I know, I was like, how do I just break this cap and make a touchest for everybody? - Yeah, I have too many jobs. - No, I was wondering about that, because you started working as the culinary lead and culinary director of Waldorf, Waldorf Astoria Atlanta Buckhead. It's got four names to it. We're sitting here today. You started working here in February. - November. - November, okay, okay. Solid big announcement in February. So just a few short months ago. And then you open curiosity in March. So that's a lot on your plate, just those two things right there, I feel like. - You know, previous, my previous job at Jackmott, I had about 16 outlets under me from L.A., New Jersey, Philadelphia, DC, Atlanta, and I feel like I'm missing some place in between. So it's not necessarily out of place for me to have multiple places under me. That job was a great job, but it was a lot of travel. In two years, I had one full calendar year on the road, you know, away from home and things like that opened with, we opened eight restaurants in a year and a half, you know, from L.A., all the way to Jersey. So, you know, it was a lot of managing multiple restaurants is something that, you know, I've done for a very, very long time. - You have the tolerance for sure. - You know, it takes a lot of planning and it takes less questioning and more doing. The house, you know, always getting the way of progress. - Yes. - And people ask me, it's time, how are you doing it? And that, the first thing I say, I don't ask how. I plan, I'm meticulous, I understand what the goal is, and, you know, I work with my team to get there. Not to say that guests are not important. I have to focus on the team. The team has to then focus on the guests. So, my number one job is protecting the assets of both Waldorf Astoria and Curiosity and the number one asset that I have are the employees. - Yes. And when you are relationship focused first, everything falls into place in that way. But, okay, let me back it up. Being relationship focused is, I think, the most determining factor of success, besides the other things that you mentioned, of being action oriented and not getting too stuck in the weeds of all the, like, micro decisions that you could be making at any given time, as long as you're moving forward and taking actionable items forward, then you're going to see progress and hiring the right people, and also probably having champagne and espresso in the morning. The mix of all of those things together is like your recipe. And then I would also add on just the experience that you've had in doing this for years. You know what works, you know what doesn't work, and so you can make those quick decisions. You're just, you're the guy for the job for that. - I mean, the thing is, it's not a failure until you give up. You know, and, you know, that's when it becomes a failure. - Yeah. - If you're working at it, and you understand that things change, you know, we have brunch in a couple of days, you know, the weather says 75%. You know, I have an outdoor grill area set up. I don't know what we're going to do. - I mean, it is it, we don't know what it's going to be at all. - So, you know, where's the pivots? - Yeah. - How are we going to pivot? What are we planning for? What is the worst case scenario? And we always have to keep that in the forefront of our mind. You know, we order fish, you know, it's a living organism. You know, if it doesn't come in, it's not because of the fish fog. You know. - Right, right. (laughing) - Because we need that, just to make it together. - Right. - But yeah. - I mean, so those are the things that make it, make it wholesome, and it's important to focus on the team. You know, and how do you make any chef that has work with me, they will probably know and tell you this, that my number one goal is for them to be better than me. - That's all they want. You can open a restaurant, you can make millions of dollars. You know, you have no legacy, if no chef comes out of your kitchen's better than you. - I'm just, I'm seriously just taking everything in that you're saying. And I think that it's just such a beautiful form of leadership to pass on that sentiment to the people that work with you, of that I want you to learn, I want you to work hard, and I want you to surpass what you're doing right now. - Absolutely. - Keep growing, that's amazing. - Absolutely, because if they're stagnant, I'm stagnant. If they're not getting better, then I mean, who's pushing me to be better? - Right. - You know, if they're accepting, if they're not challenging some of the things that, you know, chef, this just doesn't work. You know, if somebody can't tell me that, then I'm not doing my job either, you know. - I feel like you touched on this on a recent episode of your podcast as well about just that the mentality that you're bringing to your own kitchen is not the old school, like hyper-masculine mentality of just like fear-based in the kitchen. It's more of improvement in organization and development, but not in the way that it used to be in a certain form. - Well, you know, we just saw Habib and Noma, you know, which is, you know, it's sad, you know, because it's a restaurant that I looked up to. And a restaurant that I wanted to be a part of, you know, in that same realm of being one of the, you know, top 50 restaurants in the world. And-- - For a long time. - Right, but if that was the cost it took to get there, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if that's the right way, you know. And if it is the right way, then we're really pretty much a pretty sad society at that point. - Yeah. - I don't think that takes anything away from the skills that the chef has. - Yeah. - I believe that all chefs have trauma. We are in the trauma business. We have some of the highest rates of, you know, mortality rates, drug abuse, alcoholism, sexism, all the isms, you know. But we take on any cast of character in our business, you know, if you want to work in, and hopefully, we don't fall prey to that, you know. - Yeah. - But the reality is of it is that we're serving people at the end of the day. And if it causes that much stress, it's not for everybody. - Yeah, it's not. But I think what you're doing is, seems like to be the antithesis of that. And what you're doing, not only with your team, to grow them as leaders and to support their growth in a positive way and bringing a positive impact and a positive experience with your diners. But you're also even having like an ode to different Atlanta icon on your YouTube. - Absolutely. - I saw the Miss Anne's like ghetto worker, like your version. I was like, that is so amazing. - You know, you can't forget about the rich history of food in the lab. - Yeah. - And you think about, when I got here in '91, '92, you know, we have four master chefs here, you know. And think about, you know, we had Catharol, Helmeth, you know, we had Seager, you know, Gunther, - Yeah. - that's the bucket, you know, then Joel came shortly after. So we had this really rich dining tapestry of the leading thing about Atlanta was the only city in the entire world to have four master chefs. Not Paris, not London, nowhere in Germany. - I did not know that. - It was the only city at that time to have four master chefs. - Well, where's our medal? - You know what I mean? So think about it. So think about the influence of that on having the Olympics in '96, as a dining destination, having World Cup here. It's not only because Atlanta's a great city, what built the city outside of not only civil rights and things like that, but the food was part of that during that time when people were all trying. I mean, think about why did Calico come here open craft? - Well, because people were receptive to food. I mean, I think there's another whole conversation about chefs that aren't from here coming in. - They all fail miserably. - If your intention is to make money, it's not gonna we see through that a little bit. - Well, I mean, the South gets a bad rap, to be quite frankly, they think what we cook down here is unsophisticated, or it doesn't require any scientific know-how. And if you have never cooked fried chicken in your life, you can say that. I mean, fried chicken is one of the most difficult things to cook properly. I'm not even talking about seasoning and all that. I'm just-- - Just a technical element of it. - I mean, you're gonna cook five foods between 280 degrees and 355 degrees to do a well. Anything below that's gonna be cooked and soggy thing above that's gonna be crispy and raw. - Yeah. - I mean, come on. I mean, and the bird is not one bird. If you overcook the breast, it's dry. As you're gonna cook the leg, it's gonna, you know, I mean, come on, it's not a easy thing to cook properly. - No, well, and I think I don't even remember when I was having a conversation about this recently on a public forum, I don't remember which one. But just about growing up, it was like told upon us that our food was not at that level. And then, like as Southern people, and then as we saw, like top chef finally recognized certain like Southern cuisine, or as we've seen certain accolades come to, like, I mean, you've been nominated for James Beard Award as a semi, you've been a semi-finalist four times. Like, there's been recognition that has been peppered throughout the years. So we're finally seeing Southern food get raised to a more elevated state where it's been deserved to be the entire time. And there's a lot of layers and a lot of contributing factors to why the food wasn't regarded as highly as it should be and should have been. But do you feel like it's seen a little bit more of, like, wow, that's a respected cuisine, that is like an elevated cuisine at this point, or do you think we still have a lot of work to do? - So the South has considered a very one place. It does not talk about diversity very, very well when you say the South. - Yeah. - Now, if you say barbecue, you can start talking about diversity. But the South and Southern food is considered a linear, monolithic thing, which is the biggest fallacy ever. All things don't grow in all places in the South. - Yeah. Charleston has a seaboard. It has an ocean. They should have really great seafood. - Yeah. - I mean, it makes sense why, you know, when Sean was there, and everyone, you know, and Mike Lada and all the, you know, when they were, you know, really putting Charleston in a different way, they had the best seafood because they had the best seafood right there, you know? When we look at Gullagucci community and why everyone's using red rice there, and you understand the history of red rice, and why do they have the best rice? Because it's right there. - Yeah. - Why do we grow green, collagreens here in Georgia? Why are collagreens better than anybody else? Because we grow them right here. So the regional aspect is one thing. But also in our country, you know, we have a way of celebrating things. When tragedy happens, think about it. No one was talking about fried chicken in New York until 9/11. It wasn't so that the world, you know, our world, our country, need the comfort that they wanted to talk about the South. - Wow. - So it's always been historic ways. No one wants to talk about the South, and you know, post, you know, pre-1950 until the Civil Rights Movement. And then everyone wants to talk about, you know, food. And then soul food war came out, you know, which is, I mean, to me it's-- - A blanket statement. - So blanket statement, because, you know, fried chicken, everyone has a fried chicken. - Yeah. - You know, it's the way we apply spices that make it different, but everyone has one. - Yeah. - And soul food, you know, is about a movement. It's not necessarily about a certain cuisine in its whole part. Because, you know, when I grew up, I grew up, and you could say that catfish is part of that culture, but my grandmother, broiled catfish. We ate more broiled catfish than IE fried catfish growing up. - Yeah. - One of the dishes I did in Louisville, on the O'cream, on the tasting menu, was catfish eel style. Because if you really cut a catfish, and you, you know, kind of simmer it like you do a eel, and then you broil it. The texture of it is the same. So we did it on sushi rice, wasabi, and we broiled the catfish eel style, you know, made our own eel sauce, you know, with it. And to me, like when you understand that, how a fish actually can mimic other things. - Mm-hmm. - And people was like, wow, this is really so, I mean, so familiar, but it's so different. But think about it. Both river, muddy, water, creatures, and, you know, similar symmetry, you know, similar oil content. So those are the things that always have happened in our country, that, you know, that whenever there's a tragedy, they want to go back to the South. I think what's happening right now, especially in the city, like Atlanta, Atlanta's not waiting for a tragedy anymore. - See that again, yeah. - You know, we're not waiting on people to discover, quote unquote, which the worst were in the world, food to someone saying they discovered somebody. Oh, I discovered this restaurant. Oh, you, oh, wow, thank you for your pleasure. - Like, restaurants have been here for 10 years. And the first thing has been working on this cuisine in the entire world. - Right, right. - Like, no. - Oh, between you and Columbus, I don't know these words. (laughing) - It's too funny. It also makes me just think about the conversation because I think in Atlanta, specifically, we all have just a different, I think that at Lantins, we have so many people that have been, that are from here, but we also have so many transplants. And we have so many people that are transplants that are like, we wish we grew up here and like are trying to understand the culture. Like Atlanta culture is amazing. And it's something that we take a lot of pride in. So what it makes me think about is like, when Michelin Guide came to Atlanta and we had a couple years of Michelin's, and we used that word Atlanta-specific. And now it's just a more broad and general category of the southeast. Do you think that that was like a positive change in Michelin for seeing Southern food in that elevated state that we, or kind of that pedestal that we want it to be on? Do you think that that opens up more opportunity for Southern cuisine to be seen in a more diverse way? Or do you think that Atlanta should have maintained Atlanta and then there should be each Southern entity should have its own? - So I have to think about it from two different standpoint. So from the chef standpoint, what chef doesn't want to be a one Michelin star? - Yeah. - You can't take that away. - Yeah. - Just like James Beard, nomination or James Beard Award. You can't take that away. You know, my good friend Katie Button, you know, who I say is the Susan Lucci of James Beard, but nominated more times than ever want. You know, I feel like I'm right behind her and understanding that's in it. - Right down the road. - You know, from that style. From entrepreneur side, there's a political part of it that we understand that Atlanta needed to do it. I'm not sure if I liked the way it was done. I don't think that they asked the right people. - Who do you think they asked? - Well, I'm just saying that the list was very, very easy to say what was there, but Atlanta has so many great neighborhoods. - Yeah. - And if you cannot talk about the tapestry of Atlanta without talking about each neighborhood. And in that discussion, there's a lot of places that I would have said could have been Lees Bibb, you know, or Vermont, and not someone just looking at a role of decks of all our great writers in here. And they know they had a lot of influence, but I think they just, not just say Mr. Mark, I think they should have opened it, made it more broad. And also understand that, you know, when I first got here, Atlanta was only 1.7 million people. - And now we're at 7,000, right? - Yeah, almost, yeah. So 285 was outside, it was still farmland. So it just, you know, and so you cannot talk about Atlanta without talking about the whole metropolitan area. - It's very, yes. - And I think it really just focused on a few mile radius, which if you look at Michelin historically where they've gone and the places they've gone, especially in Europe, of course, it's way more landscape, more tapestry of restaurants. - Yeah. - And hopefully, you know, we'll all get there, anything like that. But think about also too, look at their influence on it and with the World Cup. - Yeah. - So Atlanta has, you know, already been a, you know, worldwide city. I think it's even great to have someone recognize us in that way. But, you know, I think it's a great way to have someone But where I think the failure is, is that I don't think they recognize southern food. I think they recognize the city of Alantins. I don't think they necessarily recognize the food of Atlantis. Of Atlantis of the South. That's a really interesting distinction. Absolutely. Absolutely. We recognize that Atlanta has creative people creating food, but we don't recognize Atlantis like instinctual cuisine. I think it still has a difficult time of saying what Atlantic cuisine is. Well, it's not like you said, it's not just one thing. There are different subcultures. Within Atlanta, there's 7 million people here now. It can't just be one thing, right? I think the hardest thing is for people who come here from other places to move to Atlanta, that the word is, well, this doesn't taste like this at home. And it never will. And so grateful that Portillo's opened here as a Chicago one and go out there. And all of my doctors saw what I ate. He was really so. And the question was, did it taste like home? And I said, it didn't matter. It was nostalgic nonetheless. My hands were greasy. What's your order? You got to have a Italian beef, extra hot peppers, extra gin and auto. Now there's a debate. My family catch up with fries. My dad never had catch it. It was always either male or mustard. Okay. So I'm not a catch up, you know, fried person. But the thing is, is that their first bite is the most important bite. Have they make you close your eyes on that first bite than everything else? That's like when I grew up watching American, I don't want my family right? And my dad would be like, if I get the goosebumps and I have to close my eyes, then they're going to win this thing. And if you don't close your eyes, it's not you're not having that moment of presence. That means it's a winner like at Portillo's. But that's the great thing about Atlanta though is that from the chef community, you can be anything that you want to be. You have the opportunity to tell your story here unlike other places. What I, people think that, you know, chefs here are all get along everything. It's all competition. You know, like, do I notice, is my closest and dearest friend him and I came up in the kitchen together. You know, we worked together for four years at the Ritz and still I'm in competition with him. You won't even mention his restaurant right now. Oh, of course I was mentioned. It's one of my favorite. You know, but you know, him working and I working together for so long, especially understanding that at that point in time, there weren't a lot of prominent black chefs gang up that we went to an event and he got called my name twice and I got called here. His name three times by people that we knew. Dwayne is six six five. You guys look nothing alike. And we had to really stop working together because for black chefs in general, we became one person. And when you think about it from that standpoint that we had to make a conscious decision that was almost we had to divide. That kind of just makes me a little nauseous like to think about that had to be a conscious step that you guys had to make in order to clear that from happening and the world that you're in. What you think about when I was nominated, I was one of maybe two or three each time. You know, the amount of work I did behind the scenes, you know, to change those things to really speak out. Not only that, I'm not just only focusing on black chefs, just about equality in general. I mean, everyone tells you. I mean, women can't work one station in my kitchen. They have to work every single station. I mean, I won't, you know, that does not work. You work with me. You work everywhere. You know, and, you know, to really do that much work behind the scenes to understand to watch Mashama win and watch all these other people, you know, when I know that the work wasn't in vain. And I know that beard has changed a great deal openly and publicly. And I see it, you know, and I tell people, you know, that you really have to watch it. And understand it and see where food is going. Like you see, you know, where, you know, Indian food is going right now. Look at the nominations. Look at the celebration. They would look at, you know, deeper dives into African food. Yeah. You know, standards like French cuisine is making a different comeback, which I think is really great to see it in a different light. Look at what David Chang did for Korean food. You know, no one was talking about it. You're even like, I know, not to mention another person that has a restaurant, so a K A, your competition. But how Heritage Supper Club is about to open in Somerville. Absolutely. And that's a different take on French cuisine because it's about the diaspora. And it's also influenced with French like cuisine types in that too, but it's just a different take on the cuisine that people have been eating this entire time. I mean, you know, so where did all come from? You know, it comes all from still from technical. And where I believe that a lot of the misnomers come from is that these techniques in African American communities weren't recorded. And we know the reasons why they weren't recorded. But now they're being recorded at a much almost breakneck speed. Yeah. You know, look at the amount of cookbooks are out. You know, look at, you know, look what Seoul did. And as since, you know, in 2018, you know, when we had that number of collagory dishes, when I talked about lamb, you know, being part of African American fabric of food and why these degrees are so important and why C.R.J. belongs in an African American table. Those things like that change a lot of, you know, historical things, but also, you know, giving gratitude to, you know, chef Evans, you know, who taught myself in Dwayne's and Reggie Washington's and, you know, you know, all the majority of black chefs in Atlanta who have provenance. You know, we all came out of that same kitchen, right? At the, you know, four seasons hotel, you know. Yeah. So, so we all understand that that that you know, I talk about the sacrifice. You know, this was instilled in me because that man would stay up, you know, 24 hours with us to do culinary competitions. Oh, God. You know, after working on a line Saturday night, the competition is due in nine in the morning. We would stay up all night, you know, plating our food, dipting in the aspect, rescuing our food. He did that for us. Look at Dariel Schuller. You know, certified master chef, you know, he came out of our kitchen. So there's a whole, that's why I said you cannot have a legacy without having chefs come out out of your kitchen is doing something. Mm-hmm. That are surpassing, you know, absolutely. Absolutely. Those who came before did. But when you talk about soul, your first cookbook that was published, I believe 2018. That's correct. So when did the epiphany hit that it was your time to start recording all of this stuff, all of what you've learned, all of the recipes that you're putting in to even numbers to digest for other people. And also, by the way, it is a gorgeous cover that could be a copy table, but you need to use it accordingly too. You know, when I started reading Ed and Lewis's cookbook, and there was no pictures. Really? I didn't realize that. And there was no pictures. And so I had to use my imagination to visualize it. And as a chef, you know, I wanted to write something that had visualization for people to really grab it to it. And her recipes were so solid and you know, and look at Joe Randall's cookbook. And then I looked at French laundry and Charlie Charter's series of books. And there was a meld, I think, that needed to happen to tell that story of the South, the South influence on, you know, me as a kid in Chicago and area and give a, not only a recipe guy, but a pictorial guy of what this fool can actually look at, you know, in a fine dining setting. And an audio guide. Yeah, yeah. You know what I play with this. But truly, like, I mean, because that's not an unintentional. You didn't just smatter the names of songs on there. That made sense for the cookbook as well. Absolutely. And if you don't, if you think about me as a person, you know, who was in music as a kid, you know, still plays a lot, you know, who was an artist, you know, who paints, you know, who's an abstract artist. All those things kind of melt together. And food, you know, pivoting to art, you know, to painting right now, as part of what I do on a daily basis is because food is such a temporary art form. And it can be finicky, you know, a lot. So having all those there, but so gave me a temporary, me, a permanent place to tell the world my story. And that's what was important to me and through the lens of what delicious food should look like. That's a really great way of putting that. And I also think, you know, if you need to just publish a few more, that's, gives you the credit of food style. You know, I feel like it might be time. It's almost been ten years. You're right. You know, it's funny. We root hard. So we wrote it. You know, so there's a whole another. I heard a rumor about that. I didn't know if it was true. Oh, yeah, we overwrote the book. That never happens. Like that is that publisher cut out. That is never the case. So we got. to California and we had probably another 50 to 75 pages just on California alone. Was this just like you just having that creative spirit of just being like let me just go I don't know if you can capture I mean you know look back on it now that roots are so probably five books. Damn. So can you reserve those other hundred pages and make part two? Well we are I think we're going to you know I mean I think about how to do it you know because publishing world is finicky right now you know and everyone's consolidating and things like that. And there's a lot of books in that genre so I you know I want to wait a little bit to tell you. But California is a whole I mean it's a whole nother country anyway inside the United States but the influence of you know Crenshaw Avenue in 1940s and 30s you know and the big band area and then watching this Cuban influence come in you know bringing all this you know different type of African food to landscape melting with the Chinese and Asian culture over there and then the produce that they grow and the landscape of of seafood you know I'm ready to buy this book. Right. Yeah. I mean you know just going through Texas though I mean Texas you know and I suppose have favorite chapters in the book what Texas to me was one of the favorite chapters to for me to write talking about the Buffalo soldiers and we you know and part is Elipamur to help me you know really understand that that part of that that Buffalo trail and it and I did a event in DC at the African American museum and the one recipe they took out of Routart Soul was the Buffalo the Bison chili and to this day like that is one of my favorite recipes out of the book because the bison is just so tender and what it has flavor and the beans are just salt and you really just want to sit you know by yourself you know with a bowl of chili and and just be you know by yourself you don't want to disturb you want to sit to you know to be nicely warm and grilled and to me that it makes for a luscious luscious meal. Oh my gosh and then you need a nap after yeah you know yeah and then you know something to wake you up after that but you know but sorry go ahead. No but on the trail you know but think about it I mean these people were traveling they're discovering different parts you know and they're surviving you know as some of the best food could does come out of survival you know we have to recognize that you know I mean how else can you make somebody say how do you make chitlin stays good let you try to survive you have no reason in the world to want to go and just say oh I'm gonna kill a pig and make some chitlin so you don't have any reason to do that no no so I mean surviving food has always been a hallmark of great cuisine because it tells a deeper story that just eating a beautiful you know smoked pork chop can. Gosh hanging on everywhere. Your brain is working at a faster pace than mine. So for some of this too I'm like oh and yes. It's so different being being on this side of the fire. I'm usually doing all the interviews you know but you know on this side though it gives a different perspective of what you know what people really want to hear and understanding that food tells such a dramatic story. It does. It does. Like what you're saying I mean food is art and it is art that cannot be reproduced no matter what no matter what you try it will never be an exact replica of what you've produced on that plate that day and it requires this other worldly understanding of what you're using like when you're talking about turning you know understanding that your catfish can operate like eel and then you could do it with rice and like but for that epiphany to even go through your head yes it can be super granular and scientific or you have the instinct with it too and think this goes with this this goes here like that's and that is such a beautiful art. Well you think about things you want to introduce to people as well so there's not a see a same as like you hear you know at the ward off you know our Caesar salad is made with Chickery you know which is a classic way of making a Caesar salad you know and it's a little bit more bitter but it's you know such a delicious way of eating a Caesar salad and you know then we have some guests say well we want traditional romance well we have that in the back if you would like that I have no problem serving that but think about it too you know that you hear to explore not only here to stay yes and and and part of what we're doing here now is creating a way for people to explore you know and really understanding what this restaurant is going to look like moving forward understanding what we're going to do in this garden that we have the garden if anyone has never been here I mean the garden is always by itself yeah and we're going to be doing great things out there in the garden so you know it feeds you know you know the high brow in me and the mid brow me a curiosity feeds that and it's the best of all worlds and the calming part of life too like just sitting down and truly being able to work the land and like do some dirt digging like right now we're in the garden in my backyard strawberries are starting to go I'm like seeing them but I'm like any day now and my husband just planted some chichitos and jalapenos and cherry tomatoes and some other heirloom tomatoes this week and it's just being there and being in the dirt it's so cool I can't wait to see what you do with the garden here yeah you know and I don't know if Gary's gonna let me use my fertilizer recipe I hope he does because I have my own like well what what what chef would not have their own fertilizer you know recipe you know I have a recipe for everything but you know it really just makes it so much fun yeah just to sit there and watch things grow yeah chef doesn't have their own fertilizer oh my goodness but I mean truly just to think of you're taking every element that you can at the Waldorf uh story at Lanta Bucket and just making it your own and like you said it's for exploration if somebody's coming here they're going to get that chef driven experience through your eyes through your lens through your team's lens of what we want to put on the plate here and so we have to touch on your version of Miss Anne's Get Em Worker first I can too because hers had chili on it back in the day yours has black truffle but it's your interpretation and reflection on a really great character and a great icon in the world of food in Atlanta as well you know sadly she's not here with us anymore and the building is you know is I'm not sure if it's gone but it's pretty much dilapidated and you know when you have icons like that if we don't talk about them they just go away right you know and it's no it's not a exact replica of what she's doing but but you know every time I see someone order I think about it you know and and to me you know she had rules and she had rules of dining she had standards of dining which is even you know greater than the rules you know that this is my place you know and this is what I want you to eat yeah and this is how I want you to eat it you know and if you don't want to do that then maybe this is not the place for you to come and that is a standard all chefs want to want to have you know and that's you know where I have so much respect for what she did and how she changed the neighborhood and it could be 78 cutlets out there next to a Lamborghini it didn't matter you know you can't drink beer in a restaurant but you can sit on on that stupa front you know and drink your beer I mean come on I mean what else do you want I mean if that's not iconic about Atlanta then what it is you know you know the the same guy in the Lamborghini is listen to this guy play crank music in his 78 cutlets over here you know in 24 it's like let me what else do you want you know it's the heart of yeah like that is how it is and you want to be like guided under the leadership of somebody being like these are my rules take it or leave it like this is what we do here right I mean what she did for Kirkwood I mean no one was even talking about that area you know unless you know the real estate goes up you know what which is a sad part of though that that is the truly the sad part about success and especially in the growing city is that eventually we push everyone out and Atlanta has had a problem with that I mean I you know all these leases that are up and all these restaurants are closing and being the city has to do something about the tax payment you give them to the the real estate people why don't you give me two of the restaurants are in there I've lamented about this a lot on this podcast actually and it's interesting when it's just come up in conversation whether I'm speaking to somebody who is in west midtown or you know it really any part of Atlanta that's being touched on is affected by this but some people don't push back with me they're like oh everybody's great in the world of development in Atlanta and I'm like interesting but I do not feel the same way so I agree with you and I think that that it is like almost they're doing something that's temporarily easing their lift of like money stuff but overall over time that impacts the what we're breeding into culture into Atlanta at this moment in time and moving forward economics will never work that way yeah I mean because because you know it takes a good restaurant at least five years to see a profit so at the end of that cycle of that tax cycle that you gave the real estate person and now you're doubling your rent or you adding on taxes to it so it's not profitable and if you want to do a nonprofit open a restaurant you know I mean I've heard of and I don't know if this has been common since the beginning of when you started working and opening restaurants in Atlanta too but like I've been hearing of agreements where the developer is then asking for like a significant cut of profits for their lease agreement as well you know the restaurant business is not for the fate of heart yeah you know 11 since 12 cents on the dollar is really good you know for for for a a a restaurant the biggest issue is that you never own your land and if you don't own your land that means you can't pivot and if you can't pivot sooner or later you close yeah then you're trapped I mean that's just story of And there's always people who think that they are great cooks at home and they can translate to a restaurant. It doesn't work. The economy is so different. Real estate developers have a big part of the growth of a Lancer. However, the city has an ominous of capital. I'm not just talking about Lancer, I'm saying in general, has a lot of misunderstanding about restaurant business. Case in point, you know, and I'm sharing this because I told the tax commissioner this, you know, myself face to face in Henry County. The restaurant that we took over for curiosity was had a previous liquor license. Right? The place next door to us has a liquor license. The place 100 feet down has a liquor license. Yeah. We had to pay roughly $1,500 for a survey to say that there is no schools, churches, or alcohol treatment facilities within the city. But then a certain percentage of our door. That survey is redundant, obviously. It's in the shopping center. Yeah. So it was owned for that. Yeah. So now, I mean, I think there's 12 or so restaurants in there. So think about the economy that we just spent every restaurant spent that just to get it done. And we were lucky because we found a person. There's other restaurants there who pay three times as much because if you don't have the survey, you couldn't get it. So really, what are we doing? You know, what are we really saying, you know, to this restaurant that we don't believe you? Or that we just want you to spend more money? Or that you have no other choice but to buy into this so that you can then have a liquor license to have some margins to actually make money and profit in this industry. Which are still not like coming away with like boat loads of money every day. But it's just like it's giving you an opportunity to have a liquor license. Yeah, I mean, and we understand that consumers are not drinking as much. Yeah. Which is quite fascinating in the world that we live in that the people are drinking less. But I understand that. Yeah. Now, I understand why you want to drink less, which means food has to taste even more delicious. You don't have a crush. Well, I mean, after this episode though, everybody's going to be on the champagne and espresso. Oh, yeah. And so we're going to at least get those champagne chips. I really, I see that. I see that coming to fruition. Absolutely. Yeah. But that's just the way the world runs. Sometimes you want to do things less. People want more of a clear mind in order to find how to pay for $5. I understand. I mean, we're all pensioning it right now. And so it all makes sense. But it's just the barriers to entry for all of that. That don't even make sense of like that redundancy of a survey. Like that just doesn't. There's no logical explanation. They can word salad at all day long. But it doesn't. That should not be the onus of the business owner when the survey's already been done for the businesses in that community. It just means I might have another job when I run for office. Why are you going to run for office? I mean, I that's right. So Gloria, my wife, I said because I should because because if no one on there understands what they're telling restaurants by that action along. No one has any idea what a restaurant is about. And if you don't know that then you have to either do it one way. You have to do it by voting or you had to do it by participating. So whichever way that we know we as a family decide we're going to do it. We're going to figure it out because I can't, you know, I can't be an entrepreneur and understand that I have to find a location. That I don't have to spend extra $1500 for a person that literally took 37 minutes because I watched him. 37 minutes. He took two pictures. I take measure. One just car. Pulled his laptop. I sent his paperwork. $1500 with $30. I said I'm in a wrong business. That just gave me the idea. I'm like, no, I only fans for sale of my fee. I'm giving me a mistake. But I'm going to do that because I have a conscience too. But you know, the people you're taking the money from are not the right people. But damn. Yeah. I mean, but we also pair our fair share of taxes. I'm not saying that. I mean, just say redundancy is. Yeah. There's just certain things that should be. Should be looked over a little more. Closely. Well, keep me posted with your running for office potential because that would be amazing. I know. My background is too jaded for that. I was just, you know, no, I mean, I mean, just, you know, or finding the right person to support to do so. Yeah. I mean, we have to participate. Yeah. Thomas Keller, right or wrong, you know, what he, you know, his opposition to the homes going near his restaurant, right or wrong, whether he is on the right side or wrong side. That's not my point of saying is he's participating. Yeah. Chefs have to participate. Yeah. We are the biggest policy drivers in the country. Yeah. Everything happens in food goes through every trend, you know, starts with us. You know, no one was doing bacon jam. You find bacon jam everywhere. Yeah. You know, you know, fresh pasta is frozen at grocery stores. Everyone was using dry pasta. So that's just started driving them. Yeah. And you touch every single part of life. Really. Absolutely. If we do something, you know, think about salt, when he was on there and everyone started flinging salt all over the damn table, you know. Like I'm not paying, you know, the dishwasher and money that clean up after you people throwing salt all over the place, you know, clean up your damn stuff. Sorry for the rant, but think about it. Cocks being up there. Because when you really think about it on a zoomed out perspective, you just like, life is so weird. It's a guy making a duck hand. They're only salt everywhere. And it's like, why? Yeah. Okay. I guess we saw makes things taste good. I don't need a duck hand to do it, you know. But he created a whole industry online about it, you know. I wonder what his, what his influence on steak sales was, you know, by throwing salt everywhere, you know. We need a back, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. We don't really need that. Full, full, full is a weird place to be. Yeah, it really is. You deal with a lot. That's why there are, like, yeah, you said you went on a rant. There are a billion, there's infinite amount of rants that could happen. This is just what's topical of today. Like this is just what's happening. Well, I mean, if you don't laugh, you will cry. Yeah. That's the only way to get people out of it. It truly is. To read some stuff and then to laugh about everything. And just, and then have your morning routine and ritual. I do want to close out with, I've asked you actually some of my hot topics from earlier, so that's good. But I know we were talking about how, you know, every restaurant, every chef, it's competition. I get it, but they are some of your friends too. And sometimes you go out to eat, I hope so. Especially when I think it says on your website, for curiosity, you work with your high school crush. Okay. Yeah. Yes. So I'm sure she might want to leave the restaurant and go somewhere else every once in a while too. You know, typically we eat close to home in McDonough. Yeah. We start there and that's the reason why we open curious. Okay. Because we didn't want to drive to the city every time. Yeah. You know, to eat. And there's a lot of chain restaurants out there. You know, and some of them we eat at. Yeah. Naturally, you know, we have different tastes. You know, where, you know, where that is. That's a whole different debate in the aisle. We have different tastes, but you know, that's what it is. It makes it great to have all that, you know, naturally I go to where my friends are. Because I don't get to see them. I mean, they come to us or we go to them because of how we're going to see each other. So naturally go to Southern National and Bombay. Oh, yeah. Okay. What about like patio season? Where are you going? So, you know, I am not a patio person unless it's way up in the air away from. I do not. With the breeze. I do not like the noise and bustle of patio dining for me. I get to distract it because I hear and see everything and I get to distract it. So I can tell you where we did. We have a really great meal. We went to Devon. Oh, yeah. And that's a long standing restaurant. Long standing restaurant. And you know, second floor patio. It was great. Yeah. You know, just sit up there and that person, everything like that. Or the way too much food. Like I always do. So that was great. You know, for. It just depends. What about like, okay, you said Devon for a restaurant you've eaten recently. Any other restaurants that you've eaten recently that have come to mind? You know, I would say that one of the great places to eat to me is Walflows. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's food and entertainment at affordable price. You know, you never know exactly where the entertainment is going to go. But you're going to get entertainment. But this is Belgium for me too, you know, because my granddad love raisin toast. Yeah. And he loved burnt raisin toast and they burnt the raisin toast for me all the time. So that is always fun, fun to eat. Any place with oysters, you know, we went to Optimus not not so long ago. Yeah. You know, eating there. There's so many new places out there. I have a whole list of places. Yeah. Do you keep a list on your phone? You know, I do. I look at him and I say, well, you know, why would they do that? Yeah. And I'm more curious, you know, why they would do so. You know, Terry Covell, what he does over there. During the time. I mean, that is that is great. You know, I don't get to the north side much anymore, you know, before being at the water, I very rarely went above e-spons. You know, but that being said, you know, some places I just have to go and I go selfishly by myself, like going to Hector's place. Oh, yes. I was super part of that. Yeah. You know, I just eating, you know, the plantains with, you know, chit-churon and to that is. -Impactable. -That is just fun for me. -Yeah. -You know, and it's hard sometimes going out to places to eat because people know who you are, and it's hard, you know, and there I can go sit in the corner, you know, and put my headphones on and, you know, drink a Modelo air and that's fun to me. -Yes. -And I just. -I find trying to find places where I don't know anybody. Is there a restaurant that's on your radar to try? -You know, there's a restaurant that I want to revisit. And, you know, it's really a great one. You know, it's got an initializ-- it's Lazy Betty. -Oh, yeah. -And-- but there's a reason why I want to revisit it is because. the experience I had there, I was rushing. It was in my fault. You know, it was in your take that something just happened to have to rush through the meal. And I always-- I don't think that I had enough time to understand the complexity of it. And it was already delicious. So I wanted to understand more the complexity of it. There's other places that I'm sad that are gone, you know, like, you know, that whole West Midtown area to me. That's really disappointing. So, you know, I'll never get to, you know, try some of the places that close over there. -What would you bring back off the top of your head? -You know, Guy Wong is always a fascinating character to me. You know, and being a great friend. And I don't get to see him at all. You know, and it really saddens me. But just, you know, know how hard he did, you know, to work on that restaurant and saw him, you know, just really pulling his hair out, trying to get that going. And then to see what happened. You know, I know it's all real estate-based, you know, things like that. You know, watching forage restaurants, you know, go, you know, at a Lazy Speed, and then the same thing happens, you know. -Yeah. -I don't think that people understand how devastating it is to other chefs to see other chefs' restaurants close. -Yeah. -But I'm really a simple eater, to be honest with you. I mean, to me, a great play to soft scrambled eggs is something I look forward to. You know? -I mean, me too, every single day. And I have to be cooked perfectly because if I'm cooking my eggs, and there's any, like, if I'm over-browning them or over-- Oh my gosh. No, it's just-- it will change my whole day. Like, if I had to turn away for a minute, and then my eggs are done, I'm like, mm-hmm. -I mean, you think about it, dear-- you know, a dear park, you know. -Yeah. -You know, watching Steven re-event himself. You know? And I think we're close to the same age. And just watching, you know, him re-event himself helps me continue re-eventing myself, you know? And this is a re-evention of me. This is not me 10 years ago. It was not even me or five years ago. It's not even me three years ago when we had Lincoln Oak, you know, which reopened in COVID, which was the most craziest and the same thing to do in the world. Especially since I was almost dead from COVID, you know? -Oh my god. And you're writing a cookbook at the same time, too, and just now beginning about 1,000 things. -Mm-hmm. -Dang. That's just a lot. Like, but yeah, this moment in time is taught in the now. Is taught in this moment. It's not-- it sounds just to me from this conversation. And from me being an observer and an admirer of your work for many years at this point, it's just that you're constantly growing and changing. And you can't ever be fixed on permanence on something. -Well, food is not. I mean, food is not. It doesn't grow the same. You know, like you talked about, you know, heirloom tomatoes. heirloom tomatoes don't taste any way the way they used to taste before, even though they're heirloom, you know, because the seeds have been so, you know, they're looted across, you know? And then you look at your friends and see what they do, see how they change. And then you look at what Sean's doing, you know? You know, how Sean re-evented himself from almost, you know, having a life threatening disease, how he re-evented himself. How he left Charleston and go to Nashville. Look at a person like Gary Gregory Gordon and all the way out, you know, Western Pacific Northwest, you know, who won a beer award, who talked about Haitian food and the different lights and re-evented the whole community of Caribbean dining out there. And he looked at Texas as big as it is. And now, you know, it celebrates Tex Mex, but also, you know, talks about Mexico and Louisiana and things like that. So there's such a great tapestry of landscape of food that it's always changing. But I find now that there's dishes that I only want to keep cooking, you know? And those are the dishes that show up on menus everywhere, you know, like Seattle and Ripes and rice, you know? And things like that. And using truffles not as a, just a super ingredient, but an enhancer, you know, like the mushroom toast here, you know, with the truffle ricotta. I mean, I could eat that dish every single day, because the mushrooms are always changing. Where does country, country, you know, and all that stuff, but the mushrooms have so much depth of flavor. And, you know, and then I know where they come from. - Yes. Are they coming from this garden? - Oh, not this one, but you know, I-- - But you know the garden where it's coming from, yeah. - I do, you know? And then, you know, there's this small farm. I forget the name of it out in North Carolina, and they're growing these, they almost look like across between wood ear mushrooms and chanterelles. - Okay. - And when you grill them, they're the most nutty as mushroom. And they look like a little nokey mushroom, like a bloomed and nokey mushroom, and you grill them. There's so much depth of flavor. And they have this, they're called chestnut mushrooms. That's what they call them. And it's like, man, I would never have even heard of this mushroom if I wasn't thinking about mushroom toast. - Yes. - So we have to try the mushroom toast here, is what you're saying, too. - Yeah. - But even out in curiosity, you know, understanding, you know, the way that we smoke pork belly out there. And we do nothing, so we just smoke it. We slice it, we grill it on the plate, barbecue sauce, and pickled onions. And that's the whole dish. - Keep it simple. - I mean-- - But that's the best way to do it when you're starting with good ingredients and a good town. - You know, we had a great run of them, like a gastronomy, you know, which I think is strict. I think it has so many still permanent uses in cuisine across the country. I still use a lot of those techniques that we did at Elk Room and Lowell Volkentocque. I still use a lot of those same techniques to do so. It's just that I don't have to tell you that I'm doing it. - Yeah, that's okay, too. And I mean, that just goes to show that you're all about providing that art form that is a great experience that it's not over sharing. And it's not salt-being, like, you know, performative, like food. - No, I'm trying to give you a great meal experience with great ingredients and some creativity, but I'm not trying to throw it in your face so that you're just hanging on everywhere that I'm saying before enjoying it. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's a different kind of way. - I mean, you know, each chef has their own way of doing so. You know, I mean, look at Ramsey and his evolution of throwing potions like-- - Did you watch his documentary? I watched like a few minutes of the first episode. I watched the first episode. He owns 96 restaurants. - Yeah, I mean, he owns Vegas right now. - It is absolutely mind-boggling. But I mean, that's, yeah, that's what he does. That's his line. That's what he's doing. That's great. - But you know what he does also is, he tells a fantastic story about the places that he opens. - Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's got a gift for what he's doing. But it's just, that is just in my mind, I'm like, 96, how can you name all of them? That's a lot of restaurants. - I know you have a big team and everything. - Yeah, he does, you know, but you look at a person like Jose Andreas, you know, who is changing the world in a different way, you know, who has the same mutual respect among chefs, you know, that he goes out and takes his money and feeds people that needed the most. And to me, they, you know, what Ramsey is doing is that he's feeding people that needed the most too. He's employing a terrific amount of people. You know, and so they both have the same parts. - Yeah. - You know, I'm affecting two different cities, two different counties, you know, by employing people. - And potentially changing policy. - In changing policies. - I mean, but that's the requisite for all chefs to be great. - Yeah. - Well, Todd, this is just truly an honor to have the time to sit down with you. And I appreciate you being just so open to having a really good conversation with me. And like just sharing what's inside your mind when it, in regards to food, restaurant, the world, like everything in Atlanta, culture. Like I just, this was, you can say here all day, but I just don't want to take up too much of your time because you are a busy man and I don't want your espresso to wear off. But it truly is an honor. And I just really want you to know that I am just cheering for you on the side of everything that you're working on right now. And I'm really excited to visit Curiosity in Macdonough as well and I think everybody who's listening should as well. And you've got to come to the Waldorf Astoria at Atlanta Buckhead and try the mushroom toast at the very least and try Miss Anne's, oh, to her burger at the very most. You've got to try it all. But really thank you, thank you, thank you for the time. - I appreciate it. I will just like to let everyone know that I am at both places. - Yes. - I'm here five, six days a week at the hotel. I'm at the restaurant five, six days a week. And there's no sleep is for those who die. (laughing) - But for the day. (laughing) - My dad says that too. Yeah, he's like, why would I do that? This was not enough time in the day for that. Gotta enjoy life while we got it. - Absolutely. - Yeah, well, I definitely think you keep yourself busy but thank you for still delivering and being so intentional with everything that you do while you're awake as well. And for even having the time to sit down with me. me. Thank you for everybody listening. Please follow Chef Todd Richards on social media at Chef Todd Richards at Curiosity_ATL at WA Atlanta at Brasica Atlanta and then go to q-reacity.com but you'll see all that in the bios of the Instagrams too. Thanks so much for listening. Thank you so much for listening. Join me every Tuesday for a new episode of Sky's The Limit. Available wherever you listen to podcasts. You can follow along in the meantime on Instagram @sky.estral or sky-estral.com. See you next week.