Château d'Yquem: Exploring Wine, Noble Rot, and Human Emotion with Lorenzo Pasquini

Wine is by definition very human. It's how human being has been capable of stopping the process of transformation of wine into being it and create this beverage that creates emotion into human beings bodies and souls. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with All Ks. Welcome to my talk with Paul K and we are at an away game today out in Beverly Hills at Wallis. But to have a conversation with Lorenzo Pasqueini of Shepard de Kim. And I'm just going to go right into it because it was such an interesting tasting. You are the chief, you are the director, chief, what are the colleagues? We say CEO, but indeed it's the director of the estate. The CEO seems like an American term. It is. It's a director. It will be director and yes, in English, you will be CEO. Do you think, you know, as I was listening and watching your presentation at lunch and then also here at Wallis where Wallis in Beverly Hills, by the way, everybody, it's incredible restaurant in Bar and Wine Bar, if you're interested in coming out or if you are in Beverly Hills for sure, you swing by Wallis. Do you think the Shepard de Kim is potentially the most iconic brand of wine from France, from Bordeaux? I don't know. It's certainly a name that resonates very high. Then I don't know if he can be a brand or a name or where it sits in the ranking. Definitely we believe it's one of the most beautiful wines in the world. And definitely it's a wine that creates emotion and that resonates in a lot of people's money. The Gladiouc said it that way. And for the listeners, you'll hear why Shepard de Kim is so special and so emotional. We're going to get into that in a minute. But my father was a very academic wine person. He bought a wine shop right here in Southern California, made it one of the top five in the 70s and 80s. And his most momentous moment that he would tell. And there's lots of stories. He stood in line at the Hugh Blind auction. And they were auctioning off how many bottles of the 21 de Kim? And he couldn't wait to taste. He stood in line for like an hour. And then they gave him this little thimble full of this wine. And it was one of the highlights of his career in the trade. And he did a lot. And I think it's because of that emotion. Why, and I was going to ask you this during our tasting, what is it about the wine that's been hung on the hangs on the vine, gets literally rotten, can create so much emotion. It's a combination of things. First of all, the name itself already creates something. Then the wine for us has the capacity we like to say to be universal. Meaning that it's a wine in our mind that it's capable of creating emotions into a savvy wine people, but also into people that are new in wine. And the reason of that is also multi-factor, factorial, meaning that it's definitely first of all the relationship that this time has with time. This is a wine that can travel through decades, centuries, but also wine that you can enjoy in its most vibrant youth. That's I think very touching, very emotion. And two, it's aromatic complexity. We like to call it the aromatic brightness of the wine. The wine is very bright, very, you know, involving in a way. Since the first moment you put the nose on top, it's a bouquet that it's very intense and very complex. And then in terms of palate, of course, the sugar, the wine is sweet. The sugar, it's a big ally to, you know, involve people to bring people in. But then together with the sugar, there are plenty of other dimensions. There is this bright acidity, this long bitter and salinity, the taste that comes with the sugar and the dynamism you like to call it, the dynamism of the sugar. And so all this, it's, you know, a combination of sensations that usually molds you and that stays with you for a long time. We like to think that drinking again is an experience that stays with you. Probably the most emotional wine I've ever tasted. Unfortunately, I have shetu de kimono. I don't know if I've ever opened it every day. I have some bar sack shetu de kimono. But it doesn't matter because even today, you have to take a pause when you put that wine to your nose. And you have to stop and it almost stirs up thoughts. It almost brings back something. Something happens. And I suppose that is the ethereal connection of wine to the earth, to the soul of the human being. Right? We talked about that. It's how human being has been capable of stopping the process of transformation of wine into vinegar. And create this beverage that creates emotion into human beings, bodies and souls. I think that he can, and more generally the wines are based on this natural phenomenon called noble rot, has probably a supplement of emotion. But thanks to this thing of the noble rot, which itself, it's incredible. It's the transformation of the worst disease in vitic culture into something that brings the grapes to a second life. But the result is even more incredible because the result is a wine that is more concentrated, more aromatic, that has this relationship with time that it's unique. It's a wonderful transformation. And what's beautiful behind all this is that this is only based on nature. It's not something we can replicate or fake. Whether you have the myoclimate for it or you don't, and that's it. That was one of the questions today and I wanted to bring it up again because we could probably do this for three hours and so we don't have that much time. But you know, this late harvest recently is their gorgeous, just California late harvest wines. And that's just a wine that has dried on the vine, hasn't gotten rotten. And if it does get rotten, it's not going to be what we're calling noble rot, botritis, which creates this character. But the thing that I thought was fascinating, you said, was that that's completely out of your control. And that dynamic that it creates is nothing the wine maker can do about it. And you have to wait. It positions you in a position of humbleness. Yes, yes, humility, yes. Humility. And meaning that indeed you are a little bit less in control. Of course there are things that we can do in order to put the grapes in the best conditions to receive the noble rot and to express it. But if the microclimatic conditions of the year are either too dry or too humid, there is not much we can do. We just have to accept and observe and be ready to react. At each time there is a window to capture the grapes at the best spot. That's phenomenal. And I think what's nice behind this apart from the humility or humbleness if I can use this word. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Humility. It's the fact that it's very artisanal. And I think the word needs stories that are natural, that are artisanal, especially as of today where a lot of things are very much under the control of technology. I think it's nice to say that there are still things that are just under the control of nature and the sky and what the sky wants to do. It is a sense of humility that forced you into just waiting and understanding and helping that the thing. It was fascinating to me about the region of this part of France, which is south of Bordeaux basically in the South of Le Penque, is that it only happens there. And so it's part of the terroir. So whatever it is that the climate creates the humidity you talked about and the humility that Chris created that it landed in Bordeaux and why? How did it come to humanity? You talked about it for a minute, you have the whole story. But how did it come to humanity that this was something so special that we had to see what was going to happen if we made wine from these literally rotten grapes? I think if any consumer listener of the show saw the grapes they go, "Yeah, right, they throw them away." What's fun is that if you look at the bunch of grapes that is rotten, it's very ugly. But if when we brought these grapes to our laboratory and we looked with the laboratory inside the grape, we saw the blooming of the fungus that is wonderful. for the looks like a flower. that teaches you that sometime beauty is about perspective. - What? - So you have to look from very close to see beautiful. And this picture that you can find on the internet that I can show you, it's really fantastic. It shows all the poetry also behind this white making. - I would love to frame a picture like that 'cause it's probably really cool. - It is. - Did you like an X-ray photo kind of thing? - No, it's just a, you know, you'd zoom it a lot, 400 times, until you see the actual if of the fungus and it looks like a flower, I will show it to you. - How interesting. So we were talking a little bit about the marketing of wine and the way that generations are reproach-wine. And I was talking about the collector friends I have that seek all the great vignages from the Bordeaux and Burgundy region. And I think that element of time travel, which you were talking about earlier, is really the key to the substance and the longevity of wine. It's been around thousands of years, we know this, we already know there's a 6,000 year old winery in Armenia, it's not going anywhere. And I think you really set it right. You articulated the fact that it's a time travel. You are experiencing a place of sense of time in a sense of place. And every time you open a different vintage, you're taken to a different time. - We like to say that tasting an old vintage of Ikeb is the most elegant way to travel through time. - Yeah, that's so cool. - And it's true, wine is itself a traveling time and space because when in Los Angeles, you taste a wine that is made in Sotern decades before, you're traveling together with the wine. I think that that travel is even more intense with Ikeb. It's, you said something to what you're tasting and I had not experienced that. And I don't want to get into the wine geeky stuff, but the salted caramel idea, this salinity concept, boy, when you said that, I never thought of it before in the wine, I think because for the listeners, the wine is, there's a fair amount of sugar in it, right, if you calculate the amount of sugar, it's the fair amount. But that extra salinity, that actually complexity changes, the slum-ish question, are there, you didn't make it since 1900, you said 10 times. And that's because the rot was the wrong rot or it's never happened. - Exactly, because the weather was either too dry or too humid. - But that's pretty good record, right? I mean, that's not bad, 10 times. - No, that's not bad. I prefer it to stay like this and not to increase it. - Yes, right. - Because I prefer to make the wine anyway rather than don't make it. - Because my thought is this, if you're particularly here in this case, where you were both trying to set in and you have to wait and be patient for the but try us to develop and that could happen at any time and it could develop further, I was gonna ask you during our meeting what that metric was, like we know phonolic ripeness, we know bricks, we know pH, we know all those things. But what is the metric with mold? - That is not metric, it's said. Of course we have an idea of the level of sugar we want when the juice is in the press, but the truth is that it's based on observation and actually the quality of a grape of noble rod is defined by its purity, meaning that it's only noble rod and not other microorganisms there that developed on the budge. And that assessment has to be done either visually or by smelling the grapes. - Smelling them. - We asked to put their notes on the grapes to make sure it's only the best rod that they are harvesting. But as I said, there is no metrics, it's more experience and observation. - What are they smelling for? Like my wife would say, that's disgusting. - They just have to make sure that there are not other microorganisms that can smell something specifically. - And is that, are they trained for that? - Of course, yeah, we have the chance to have this incredible group of pickers. Their average age is 60 years old. - Wow. - A third of them is above 70. - Am I qualified? - Yeah, some of them have retired from the camp that keep coming for the harvest. And it's a real community that makes it. And for us it's super important. There's also that since our wine is so artisanal, it relies not only on the technical team, it relies on the unity of people that is proud behind this boat. - It seems like that, if given that circumstance, pickers know what to smell for. You are basically waiting for nature to come around and develop this grape in a way that represents Chateau de Kim. That there really are no bad ventages. There are different ventages, but if you make an honest wine from the grapes you're given, then that's a good advantage because it expresses that sense of time and that sense of place. - Also because it's the vintage bed which just don't make the wine. - Yeah, as well, yes. - So when it carries the label, it means that it has had the level of properties at the level of quality that is required to carry the label. And then inside that, of course, there are different ventages. There is a small yard sheep between the different ventages. But if it's no good, it just has a resistance. - No good, if you do put it in the bottle, then it is gonna be a representation of that time. - That of different. - That's standard. - Because there's a huge difference. And I'm not sure that I would have detected that without tasting inside by side between the ventages we tasted today, which is 1713 to 5 and the 23, which is fascinating to taste. And a huge difference all the way down. And one of them, I forgot which one it was, you were talking about, you get the expression of the rod, the noble rod over the expression of the grape. - 13, because 13 is a vintage where the weather was pretty cold, let's say, and cloudy. And so we don't have a big concentration of fruit compared to other ventages, like, let's say, 17 that were tasting today or 23 that were launching at the moment. And so 13, a little bit like 2007, are pure expression of the rod, it's. - Yeah, let's create it. - And it's very interesting to see that, because people don't really know what these funbues can bring to the grapes by tasting these wines. You can have an idea. - When I open a bottle at home, now, I'll admit, we don't have roasted chicken on Sunday as the French, I do make pâtâthol, quite frequently, I love it. - I pronounce duet, actually. - Yes, and that goes with this. But every time I do open a bottle of bar sack or sout turn at the house, the first impression that people give it, and I learned something today, I do use cordial glasses for that and that's wrong. So we're gonna go back to white wine glasses. - White wine glasses, yes. - You can't say that. - Okay, I get that. But a lot of times somebody says, no, I don't drink dessert one. It's like, no, you gotta taste this. - And. - Especially, it's not because it's a sweet wine that it's necessarily a dessert one. - Yes. - It's a sweet wine that can go with dessert. - Yeah. - But it can go with plenty of other things. - And everybody will rave and say, what is this? And they'll ask that question, and they'll wanna know the stories, and then all of a sudden becomes an experience for them. - And all of a sudden, to both of these empty. - Yes, exactly. And that's the good thing. I don't wanna say that. - You had the seller. You were talking about, and when I studied French, the language, you know you learn a language, you kinda gotta study that culture in order to make things happen. And, you know, Josephine Baker, for instance, was a huge subject of mine. I love it. Napoleon and Josephine, Josephine does girlfriend. - Yeah. - You know, that's a fast-being subject for me. And, Ujani, there's a book out on Ujani, and you were talking about Brittany today, and she built that, I mean, Beerets, there's a famous chateau down there. But you brought up Josephine, he came, you call her, but what was your real name? What was your function at the whole chateau? - So her name was Francois Josephine, two sauvages married with two lures elves, very long name. So we call her Josephine Dicam, very simply. Josephine was the one who held the estate from 1785 until 1851, very long. - Wow. - She had a very long life, and she also was positioned at the top of the estate very young, because she lost her parents when she was only 17. And so during this long life, totally dedicated to Ekeb, she has done plenty of things that were somehow of a revolution, or at least a before and after. I think that probably she is the one that positioned Ekeb where we know it today, and actually the proof of that is that four years after she passed away, Ekeb was classified a super-first growth. So it's clear that it was thanks to her that we had this unique positioning, because we were the only one who were though to be positioned as super-first growth. And what she has done was polish the technical approach of harvesting by successive passes, set the effect of aging the wine in new barrels, built the bar, the barrel. seller that we still use today and actually today will reach the 200 years of existence. Wow. She started to position before with her husband and then alone with her husband, passed away. He came on the best tables and the best courts around Europe. She did the label as we know it with the letters and the crown. So she was the manager of a luxury brand that might wait before these words would exist. And the impressive thing is that she has done that during the course of the French Revolution, which was a. Well, she was around with Madam Clucoden. But at the time during the French Revolution, I know that was an issue for her. Yeah, it was the same people. Interesting. Because I do think it's interesting. I tried to articulate this. A lot of French women are here in the wine business in America. I saw the one today, Clarisse. But it's a very patriarchal society, at least it was for a long time. It was very much. And there's really strong women that are making. Actually, she was an only child. That was probably the reason why she was raised as someone who would take the estate. Even though at the time it was not very common to have a woman taking over the estate. But it was great because there is also a big feminine touch to these wines. Thanks to her and her feminine touch here. We set a style, a vision that we continue to respect almost 200 years later. So what's the oldest vintage you've tasted? Myself, in 1811. Wow. Yeah. And I had the chance to taste some vintage of the 19th century. I have in mind very precisely, in 1865, that I tasted three years ago. And it's incredible when you taste these very old vintage of the cam. And what's the most incredible thing is that you still can imagine the future of these wines. Like you're tasting a wine at the end of its run. Right. It tastes a wine that you feel it's still running and it will continue to run. And that is the most incredible thing. That's so interesting. So obviously the colors are changed and the balance of acid fruit, sugar, and sugar being a preserved in itself. You said something earlier today and I wanted to peel it back. We were talking about the export of Bordeaux to England. And of course that was the huge market for Nale Bordeaux, but as an Augustean, but for Champagne as well. And their Cuvé was different than the Russian Cuvé. And you talked about the technical changes that have occurred. But here's a wine from 1811, from 1865, that you are fascinated with the taste. And so how much difference does the technical play in the. There are, I cannot say exactly which are the difference since 1865, but the cam has always kept a will of improving. And I think that is the most important thing that we have to be reminded as a team who today has the chance and the privilege to be at the Hermony cam. Which is that we have this incredible past that we have to respect. We have this incredible wine that is based on some things that define the style of the wine that we need to transmit and enhance. But at the same time our mind doesn't have to be only the one of respecting and transmitting. Because it's not by going the same things that you will necessarily have always the same result. Actually, I think that we need to keep alive this flame of trying to struggle for that 0.1% of improvement. Because it's that that will keep you having the same result, I think. So always striving to try to do better and better and better. And if we look at the history of again, this is what happened. And so this is what we have to continue to do, balance that vision of transmission and protection together with the vision of challenging some aspects in order to try to do even better if possible. And so over these last 200 years, of course, there have been improvements. Which doesn't mean that the style changed. It just means that it's not because our brand is so established that it's steady. And it's actually the other way, as I said, it's trying to keep the best and improve the rest. Is that a tough balance? And we're going to get into your career here in a second where you've learned all this. But it always seems to me a tough balance to now you've added this whole element and complexity of noble rot. But to express the wine, use technology, do other things you need to do to prove it a little bit, whatever how slow it is in our business. You know, you've got one chance a year to do it. But also maintain what is Shatter De Cam. Like making sure that that customer knows when they put it in the glass, this is who we are. But it's progressed from where we were. It just, I think it's based on two things. One is not rush, meaning that it's true that you make wine only once a year. But Ecam is a very long story. And if it's not this year, it could be next year. And I think we have to view the evolution on a long-term vision and change things that could be repeated and that could stay for the next decades or so. So first of all, it's position of ourselves on a vision of long term, long term on how we do things. And the time frame where those things that we will do will continue. And the second is also no. What things, no, so well Ecam that you're able to make the difference between those things that are vital to keep and those things that are important to evolve. And the only way to be able to judge is by knowing the state so precisely that you can understand which is which. So that's interesting thought. When I was in Wine Paris, I went to the Armenian booth. I spoke to an old friend named Juliana. She was consulted by a bugger there. And by Michelle Rolong when they were growing grapes in the valley. And she said, he said to me, yes, you can grow grapes here and they're probably going to be good grapes. But we have to wait 100 years to find out what's going to happen. You've been there six years. So how does that feel like? It feels like you're just a young and here. The state like Ecam, the time feels different. It's still there 30 years and it's still small compared to the history of the estate. So what you rely on is also what the people before you passed. And so we have things written. We have records. We have things that are being transmitted by word of mouth. So the first thing that you do when you enter in a word like Ecam is to study, to try to learn, to read and to listen to the people that have been there before. And also, of course, Ecam is not only myself. We are 80 in the estate, 50 in the technical team. We have three as the managers within the very technical core, myself, the seller master and the vineyard manager. We have some consultants also that have been there for a very long time. Our president, Michel Toune, has been there for 20 years. My predecessor has been there for 40 years and he's still a consultant for us. So you see, it's a group of people. And it's a group of people who are working on the same way and that also are aligned on the same way of doing things. It's a community and culture that allows us to go beyond the timeframe of ourselves. You were born in France and you were at the helm right now of one of the most prestigious brands. And not only brand of wine that's so recognizable, but in the luxury segment, which is a huge segment for obviously LDMH is all about that. But you were born in Tuscany. What's up with that? I mean, you're a sange of Vasi guy. Yeah, yeah, I was raised in Italy. I was actually born in Rome and raised between Rome and Tuscany where my family has a small vineyard estate. But very quickly, I wanted to come to Bordeaux to finish my education. And actually, the opportunities made me stay in Bordeaux or related to Bordeaux. So I have very much a son of Bordeaux. So I've also been trained in Bordeaux and learned in Bordeaux. But I was very lucky and very privileged to be part of this story. Now we have more to be appointed CEO. And this definitely went above what I could dare to expect for me. It's a huge difference in cultures. I mean, I always fascinated like, we've been the monocle a couple of times for the Grand Prix, which is just one of my favorite things to do. And you just drive 45 minutes in the San Remo and it's a different culture altogether. And I suppose because of Catherine de Medici coming from Florence to Mary the King and that there's a blending of cultures, but it just seems like they're so different. Not much. French and Italy are very, very close. I like to say that there are two faces of the same medal. There are plenty of things that put us close. The Mediterranean culture, the love for cuisine, the love for wine, the historical heritage, the love for artisanal and agricultural products. So there are plenty of things that make France and Italy close. French people love to go to Italy. And Italian people love to go to France. There are plenty of Italian people working in France and French people working in Italy. Also in wine, there are these exchanges. I'm not the only Italian guy making one in France and there are plenty of French guys making one in Italy. So it's, I think there are two countries that are extremely close and welcoming one with the other. I'm glad to hear that. It's true. I'm sure it is. Have you ever made wine in the new world? Like North America, South America, the chance to live four years in Argentina, I mean, in my point. And that was just between my first period in Bordeaux and my second period in Bordeaux. You know, it seems that even Argentina, chili, even those new world because it's a younger appellation and there's less tradition to worry about. It still has a very traditional feel about it. Argentina? Yes. I always like to say we were working for Chevalga Zomb, which is the extension of Chateau Chouard Blanc in Argentina and also part of the V&H group. And I always, when I was there, I always like to say that Argentina is an old, viticulture in the new world. There are centuries, more than a century of history, of viticulture in Argentina. That's a good way to put it. Malbec arrived there in 1861 and I had the chance to sell the Zomb, they still have vineyards from the 20s of last century. So I mean, that positions Argentina, not necessarily in the new world, per se, as we consider it. Of course, the story of the Argentine, one is different from the French or Italian and there are things that are new, but there is a real wine and vine culture in Argentina that days back. So Chevalga Zomb is in Mendoza? It is. And is it high altitude, malbec type thing? Yes, it's around 1,000 meters above 11. You know, I had, you see, I know part of the French royalty family that you could have called them Chevalga, I could have called them Count. I forgot the first name, and he was making wine there. And there seems to have been a movement in Argentina about really testing the height of the Andes as to what's going to do it. Yeah. And I just wonder about the wine world, like the consumer. Are they understanding that? I think so. What that means. I think so. Of course, there are different types of consumer. There are those who just like the taste of wine and don't want to get deep. And then there are others that like the story, like to understand. But definitely, it's the same as talking about noble wealth. There are people that understand that the word of complex that it is and other people that just want to taste the wine that creates an emotion. And so, yes, I think it's something that it's very interesting for the question. I mean, I find it fascinating, but I'm a wine guy all the time. And so here's that analogy I was trying to talk to you about lunch. And I may be able to make sure as I can, which is, if you're in-- and I came to this conclusion the other day watching a baseball game. And I realized that I understood everything was going on in the field. I'd love the game. I study it. I've coached it. I read books on it. I told my wife that I said, I just love this game. As I study wine, I love the study of wine. But not everybody does that. So you go to the stadium. You go to your football stadium. It's 50,000 people that obviously like football. But they're not interested in reading about it, studying it. They know when a good play happens. They cheer. And then they go home and they go back to their regular lives. And I think that's most of the wine-drinking public. They enjoy it. They want to know about it. They don't want to know too much about it, because then it just falls to fun for them. So how do we get to those people to grasp on to the idea that we can serve shut to Canada with chicken dinner on Sunday or that it's not just dessert or those kinds of things? How do we get that experience to them? What do we-- First of all, I think that there is not the consumer of wine. There are plenty of different consumers. There are those that go very deep. Those that go deep in technical things, or in historical things. Those that like the very good food. Those that don't like to pair it with food, that just like to pair it with the moment or the view. And then there are young people, older people. People that are very sad, people that are not. And so I think that we need to consider this. Because as you said, it's like for our sport event. There are those who really are into the sport. Those who are just sick to the event or to the moment. And our job needs to be the one to be able to bring the story, the same story, to all of these different people, of course, in a different way, without betraying who you are, but maybe adapting the speech to these different people. And definitely what you do is part of this. Oh, thank you, sure. This is bringing the story with a megaphone. It's different than the megaphone that you use for other types of consumer. I think the most important thing is to educate in general, is to explain what makes your wine unique and why it has a story that is different from another wine. And I think the real base of everything is the education. And I really believe that our exercise, rather than commercial, is educational. Well, and I think this is not saves the industries. I don't think it's in that much peril, but it's what establishes this industry. And I had this conversation in the day. We were in Paris. We went to the local tourist bistro in front of the Eiffel Tower, to Riffel. And they brought me a quiche that I ordered. And I had to stop for a second, because it was like my mother's quiche. My mother's a great cook. And she always made quiche. And I had to smell it like this since then. And my wife's like, what's wrong with you? I said, you can't believe the memory that just brought back. And I think that we've developed those experiences. And I don't think the experience, for instance, and I used to say it's all the time, is buying a wine on the internet for $5. That's not the experience that you want to have. It's not having a pouch. I think we were discussing with Rafael that somebody came out with a pouch, like a child's applesauce pouch. And he squeezed the one. That's not the experience. And it's part of the movement right now. Everybody's trying to find this either billion dollar idea, which is around packaging, or low alcohol, or whatever they're trying to do, instead of developing the story, instead of telling the story. This is what it's about. I think so. I read that the industry does have to be saved, because it's not at that level. But what will keep the industry dynamic is definitely, I believe, much more educating and get the story out, rather than find a solution with the pouch, as you said. I mean, with all due respect. Yes, of course. Through all the strategies. I'm not here to judge. Just giving my vision. That's actually the reason why the packaging of the camera is still the same, because we believe that what we have to do is to bring the story. How many cases are bottles? You make 750s, 375s. I thought we were pouring magdoms today. What, how many bottles are you making? It depends. The average is between 60 and 80,000 bottles per year. But to give you an idea, we prefer to speak about the average per plant, which is one glass per plant, while-- OK. That wine in Berto usually is one bottle per plant. One bottle per vine, yeah. I use that analogy the other day. So I was really talking about it. I go, yeah, you get one bottle of still wine per vine. One of the questions I was going to ask today, which I didn't, was, what do you lose because the wines, the grapes, are dried. And now you're telling me, you get one glass, which is a fifth of a bottle. Yes. We lose that. We lose four fives. We lose the old crop. Sometimes we have to renounce to the old production, because the climate was not-- and the quality was not the quality of the camp. And so I think it's by being ready to lose a lot that you preserve also the promise of excellence of the camp. That's the price to keep the excellence of the camp. So in the world that I had, you've Delonane. here, nice guy. And you know, he's been a luxury brand representative. I think he was with Nakavasi, but with Louis XIII, the Nakavasi, yeah. Is that a different world? The luxury brand, the LVMH world of marketing, the LVMH world of hotels, the LVMH world of wine. Is that a separate standard or just across the board? You guys are just doing the best you can to make the best you can to represent. No, I think the core of the approach is really the same, which is make as best as we can and have a long-term vision rather than just a short-term performance vision. That's what I think it's really what Michelle knows has in mind for all his meso. Then of course the way this is applied to each brand is very different because brands are very different. But the core values are the same, the across the board and they are held by the family itself. So my daughter was my friends are gonna laugh because they bring this up quite differently, but she went to Atlanta, has a pastry school outside of Lyon and she baked in Paris and in fact I was watching Midnight in Paris with movie and her bakery is in the background of one of the shots as I took a picture center. But Alandacoss came into the bakery, it was just a corner bakery and tasted her wares and she was like them all that and I thought how interesting is that this guy is so involved with the brands that he would show up in a little corner bakery. And another friend of mine who is a song, Louis the 15th and Monaco, I said I worked there a year and never saw him. But is there that kind of hands-on representation from corporate to available image to come see, make sure you're doing the right thing? Yeah of course we are. We have a certain degree of autonomy but of course we belong to a group, to a family and so we have a board of administration that looks after us. Plus we have plenty of interactions with the administrators but also with other people of the group and it's very very valuable for us to have access to this incredible knowledge that is very cross-thinking of skills that goes very very very far especially because they all have also the respect for each maison and so it's a strong mutual respect between those who have very broad skills and those who know very well the place where they are and anything that's the best of both words. What's next for you in the context of Shachar Dekam? Now tomorrow now to Texas to continue to present the victims and in general what's next I think it's to continue to make the best wines as possible, one of the best wines in the world I hope so and to make it as environmentally friendly as possible and as socially valuable as possible and then make this story of the number rod shine around the world as much as possible. Actually there's one of the things I want to bring up and I didn't bring it up and we'll wrap this up but I think in the world of business industry doesn't matter that sustainability probably the wine industry is probably most susceptible most inclined and most obvious to be in the sustainable world. So Ekem has moved that direction. Ekem has always been animated by this idea of sustainability which for us means an environmental sustainability and a social sustainability and environmentally wise we have never seen any herbicide we have always fertilized our vineyards with manure produced on site and now since 2022 we are organic we also stopped to flower our soils we work with corn crops we are very much engaged in a plan that will divide by two the total carbon footprint by 2030 so there are plenty of things that we do on that site plus we are doing a lot of things to enhance the biodiversity of the estate in general and on top of that we believe that we have we need to preserve our positive social impact. And so we have a team that is made of almost 90 people plus there is a community around Ekem especially those speakers that come during harvest there are a hundred more people plus there is all of our country, our rural community around Ekem plus we are in the French viticulture context and we want to have a positive social impact on all of those circles. That's excellent. Somebody told me once look at the glass is recycled sand and the cork is a recycled piece of bark right? It's kind of part of the deal. Well it's just your head is in Texas tomorrow my daughter just moved to Paris. Nice. Texas. They have an Eiffel Tower. That was a little tiny Eiffel Tower. It is a very good community it's about two hours north of Dallas where you're going to be in Austin and you're going to be in Houston. Well and you're going to be doing a similar thing you're going to be tasting buyers and restaurants. Yeah they're presenting the new vintage spreading the word. Excellent such a pleasure to meet you and have you on the show and I hope when we get out to Bordeaux next which I will be there for sure. I was able to when we were there for the wine Paris I would tell the Uber drivers you know like I could live here you should probably need to be a bit and they're like no you don't want to. I'm like you know for me it's like it's a vacation. The grass greener is greener always on the other side. Exactly Paris is wonderful there's that either with a traffic or when you're in you're completely on the traffic but the city is the biggest Paris not bad to live in Los Angeles. No right. Thank you again. Cheers. Thank you.