Chat Was Us | Success

This is a HeadGum Podcast. Exemplifies the spirit of the institution. Of course. There you go. Not surprising. You are Randall. End of chat about success. Yep. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners. Sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9% of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's new series, East of Eden. A bold reimagining of John Steinbeck's masterpiece following generations of the Trask family through love, betrayal, and the choices that shape humanity. Starring Mike Feist and Christopher Abbott as the Trask brothers and Florence Pugh as Kathy Ames, the complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants, no matter the cost. Watch East of Eden now, only on Netflix. Welcome back. Yeah. To another installment of Chat With Us. Chat, chat, chat, chat. Yeah. Chat With Us. Where we take a break from our rewatch podcast and we dive into a topic inspired by the themes of our show, This Is Us. And today's topic is a big one. You ready? What is it? Success. Okay. Success. Oh, here we go. We're talking about ambition. Tell them about it. Achievement. Yes, sir. Fulfillment. Chasing dreams. Changing dreams. And that feeling. That we all have when we just get to the next thing. Then we'll finally feel successful. Or will we? Or will we? This is us exploring this constantly. Kevin had fame, but searched for purpose. Randall checked every box, but was still anxious. Kate spent years redefining what success meant for her. So today we're asking, what actually makes a successful life? But first, let's do a little catch up. How are you guys doing? Let's do a little catch up. I can talk about a little personal success. Amari Brown. One kid's basketball championship. Final score was 31 to 30. We were winning at halftime by four points. The other team came back and got up by six points. We climbed back to a tie. Amari Brown got fouled on a layup. It was an and one hit his free throw, right? The best part of this whole game is that the coach of the other team, who I don't know, but we had to play him once in the regular season and once during the playoffs. He's a very loud and passionate man. And he sort of chafed Brown in a way that Brown is not accustomed to being chafed. If you ever want to see something funny, watch Brown coach in the playoff game. Cause it is, it is. Oh, you were coaching. Oh yeah. Okay. I'm assistant coach. We turn it up to 11 all the way up. Right. Then watch Ryan, Michelle Bathay in the stands. You guys, my wife will go after any parent that she thinks is sort of like attacking her child of the kid. If she's the parents like. No, that's a foul. She's like, it was not a foul. Like Ryan is hysterical. I've had to keep Ryan from at least three fights that I can think of once in like a little league, Superbowl games and flag football. And once yesterday, or when, when, when she had the, the playoff game, the, the. You gotta invite me to these things. I will invite you because like from, from like coaching, I'm talking to the kids. I hear my wife, and I turn around and say, Hey, it's okay. And she'll. Be like, ah, like it is absolutely hysterical, but the game is over. We win 31 to 30. Andrew Brown, who acts like he's too cool for school for everything, runs out onto the court and grabs 10 year old boys. It's like, let's go. Let's fucking go. Like it gets so hyped. There's one of the few times that I see him and his brother, like jump and embrace and like hug each other and everything like that was as far as success is concerned, because the winning is one thing. What you feel more than anything else is relief because the sadness is too much. Oh gosh. Do you guys remember? You guys may not be old enough for ABCs to do something called the wide world of sports. And they were talking about that and how it comes over the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. I think the agony of defeat probably hits harder than actually the thrill of victory. So I feel like, okay, we made it through that one because when the, when the 10 year old, like, even as I'm shaking the hands of the other. Kids, and the tears are streaming down their eyes. I'm like, Hey fella, you played a great game. You played a great game. I even, even better than us, but pretty good. I even dapped up the coach and I said, good coach. He tried to slow the game down. So we have offensive players who are pretty good. And the first half of the basketball game, you're not allowed to press full court. So you can set up your offense and the second half of this league, you can press full court. So things get a little helter skelter. So in the half court, we dominate because we have two kids who I would say are Sullivan. S. Ski in terms of stature, they're like big boys, hairy chested, that sort of thing. Where parents are like, is he really 10 full beer? Yeah, that's the, that's the whole thing. So the guy would literally hold the ball. Right. And because we didn't want to press them, he would spend two minutes just holding the ball to slow the game down. Yeah. So I got a little frustrated, but it was okay. We got the w in the end. So I'm just sharing a little story of success and what happened to us recently. That's it. What's going on with you guys? Why does it, why doesn't victory last as long as defeat? Yeah. Right. Why doesn't it stick? I, you know, why don't we hold onto it? Why does it not hold as much weight as failure? It goes back to the reticular activating system. We as human beings, the reticular activating system, R A S it is the thing, what you were talking about a negativity bias. It's why people hold on to bad news, right? Longer, you know, for every 10 pieces of bad news or every one piece, 10 pieces of good news, you, one piece of bad news sort of equals. That's sort of thing. It just, it's the thing that lingers in our mind. Yeah. Losing hurts. I think also it's like safety wise. Oh, if this is bitter, I could die. Like there are things that were legitimate dangers in the past. It was like, I got to remember if I touch that, that's hot, that sort of thing. And so it's still present here, but not as relevant. If I'm not victorious in battle, I'll never find a mate. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, that's basically it. You're right. So yeah. And I will lose and I will die alone. I mean, that's like that, right? The fear at the base of everything, I will end up dying alone. Yeah. Seriously, that's a tough one. Yeah, I think that's what much comes back to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you, okay, wait, do you have any other stories to share before we, because there's a game to play, but I want to make sure we talk about what's going on with you people. I mean, I'm trying to think about how I can, how I can relate to this, this story because I was a highly competitive athlete as a kid and yeah, there's just those. And, and in the last episode, or I don't know if it was the last episode, one of the recent episodes, we were talking about the inner critic and just that, like, eh, you're no good, eh, you, you're not good enough. Yeah. Yeah. And as soon as something confirms, something agrees with that voice, then now that's just, that's just confirmation. That's also the RIS. Confirmation. Confirmation. And I've, I've talked about this with Rachel in, in, uh, in couples therapy where our couples therapist is like, you know, that you need a couple of things. You need to, to, to, for any bit of criticism that you have for your partner, you need to deliver 20, 20, it's 20 to one, 10, 20 to one, uh, compliments or encouragements. Yeah. And that's a lot of work. And I was telling Rachel, it's like, yeah, Rach, I, if you point out, if you point out where I failed, I, there's a voice in my head that told me I was gonna fail before I even did. And then I did fail and then you slightly mentioned it. Not even with any malice, but now I'm being ganged up on by you and myself and it comes off like, yeah, I know it's it gets defensive. Right. Um, and I, and I still, you know, I'm 45 years old and still have a hard time with that. Yeah. I think it's something that we continue to battle through life, you know, about you, Amanda. I'm trying to think, I don't really have any relation to this. I don't lose. You only win. Yeah. I'm only a winner. You're like Sean Carter, Jay-Z. I will not lose. Uh, no, I mean, and it's, I don't have any experience yet with my children. They're so little and yeah, guys, I can't believe that like we're, we're on the precipice of summer. I guess summer's sort of already started. There you go. We're about to get out of school. Yes. Over an hour. You're not out yet. We're out. We have one kid out. Okay. The other is gonna be out in like a week and change. Yeah. Um, and then like, yeah, I feel like already, I don't know if you guys are feeling this way, but we have a lot of summer plans. You're working. You're going to be working too. Yeah. But it's like, okay, we have camps and Taylor's on the road. And then we have one little trip here. And then we have more camp. And then we have another trip. And then it's like, and then school starts. Yeah. Summer's tough. Summer's tough. And I think back now to my parents. Again, we were talking about earlier, like all the things that you just like, you don't know until you know them, until you've experienced. Now being a parent, I'm like, oh my gosh, not everybody has a summer vacation. I just loved summer as a kid. I loved those like lazy days with no plans. And now as a parent, I'm like, that must have been the world's worst circumstance for my parents. Because like they had three kids and like just trying to make sure that everybody had plans, that everyone had something to do. Yeah. But then there's those days where every other kid on the street is gone. Yeah. On their trip. Yeah. Sure. And it's you and your brother. And it's Sacramento. And it's hot. And it's 105 degrees outside. And your mom is like, get out of my house. Yeah. Yeah. Go outside and play. Go do something. Go outside. Go do something. I'm going to melt. It's 105 degrees. You're drinking that brassy water from the hose. Yeah. It's so hot. Yeah. Out here. And the hose water's still kind of hot too. Yeah. It starts out hot. You got to wait for groundwater to make its way up. Yes. Yes. Too hot to drink. You're like, I can make tea with the first. I can make tea with the first 30 seconds of this water. Was the water better? Or was that something we were never supposed to do? That water was so refreshing to me. We probably hadn't ruined it quite as much yet. Yeah. But it probably wasn't. 100% we hadn't ruined it as much. But it wasn't made for mass consumption. Gotcha. OK. But yeah, I used to see if I could stop the water with the pressure of my mouth. Bro. I can't do it. It came on my nose. Did you do that? Did you fill the water gun up with water and just. Oh, yeah. Yeah. What was that? Just squirting the water gun in your mouth? Yeah. Yeah. I'm thirsty. Oh, my God. Just water. Just skating around, getting into trouble. Microplastics. I would go. Just getting some of that microplastic. No, no, no. Microplastic. We had a 7-Eleven, like, kind of at the end of our subdivision. It took, like. Oh, my God. Like, 20 minutes on the bike to get there. That's the quick trip for us. That must have seemed like Narnia. It was. Shangri-La, bro. You guys, let's go to 7-Eleven. Let's go to 7-Eleven. Let's ride our bikes to 7-Eleven. All right. And, like, my mom gave us, like, five bucks. Five bucks? Going crazy. You could raid the place. Oh, totally. It was, like, 39 cents. Oh, yeah. It was, like, Jolly Ranchers. Yeah. For me, my order was always, like, Jolly Ranchers, strawberry preferred. My order. Okay. Hello, my good man. Hello, my good sir. My name is Amanda. I would like to place an order. Here's my 7-Eleven order, okay? Give it to me. The long. Remember, they used to have the long Jolly Rancher strips? They were, like. Yeah, I do. They used to have a tab of solid, like, lollipop, but they were Jolly Rancher. Yes. You don't remember this? No. Absolutely. Oh, my gosh. Long and thin. Long and thin. Yeah. Okay. They would have, like, cherry, watermelon, strawberry was the mecca. That's your jam. So, a strawberry Jolly Rancher, a Coke Slurpee, obviously. Yeah. I'm not mad at that. And then, like, either a Reese's peanut butter cup or pieces. Peanut butter and chocolate. Or, like, a whatchamacallit bar. Whatchamacallit. So, I could have a chocolate and a little bit of, like, a salad. Or, you know, and maybe a gummy bear situation, too. I would spend too much money on some Big League Chew. Oh, really? And would just wear my jaw out. Oh, my gosh. And Big League Chew loses flavor. Instantly. After about five chews. Yeah. So, you do it or not. And then, you make a big. You don't spit it out. No, no. You put a bigger ball. You make a bigger wall of, yeah. And then, at the end. Your poor jaw. Jaw. Just jaw. Yeah, but that's why you got this strong jaw now. Mewing. I was mewing. I was mewing before anybody even knew what that was. Mewing. There you go. Summer. That's what I think about when I think about summer. Yeah. This is a game to play. As we get into success or whatnot. The producers came up with this. We're going to compliment each other. Okay. As we compliment each other, you're not allowed to smile. I've already lost this game. Not necessarily. Not necessarily. I'm not betting on myself in this one. I'm not betting on myself. All right. Christopher is strong. He's ready. He's locked in right now. Look at him. I mean, I bet it's low. He's got self-esteem already. None of your compliments can get through my negative inner voice. I'm working right now just to keep it. Yeah. Just trying to let the. Keep it loose. I've already lost. I'm already. Chris, would you like to give Mandy a compliment? And then I'll give Mandy a compliment. And then she'll be the first. Do I have to keep my eyes open? Yes. Yes. You have to take this in. Yes. Drink all this in. And you have to watch us one day early on Hulu. There you go. Here we go. Who, me specifically or just the world? The world and me. Mandy. Wait, I have to look at you guys while you're complimenting? You can look at me while Chris compliments you. Oh, my God. But don't know? Amanda. Amanda Lee Moore. I've already lost. You look at me. I've already lost. I haven't even given you the compliment. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Let me know when you're done smiling. I'm not going to do it. You're not going to do it. I got it. So is a woman thinketh in her heart, so is she. You got this. That's biblical. Yeah. Come on. So is a woman thinketh in her mind. This is not helping. So is she. You got this. Here we go. Okay. Mandy. I love that you're always smiling. It's just your voice. Your voice makes me laugh. Thank you. All right. Now I'm going to get Sterling. All right. Come on, Brown. Get it together. Get it together. Get it the fuck together. You're not that special. Oh. Yeah. Don't look at me. I got mischief in my eyes that I will transmit across the airwaves. This is for our listening audience. And our Hulu watching audience. All of the big pauses are for people watching a day early on Hulu. Sterling K. Brown. Yes, sir. You might be. The greatest kisser I've ever experienced. Thank you, buddy. You're welcome. I appreciate that. It's my turn. You want to say something? No, no. Go for it. Just very considerate. You're talking about me as a kisser? Oh, no, no. Just as a person. You're kissing very forceful. Very inconsiderate, actually. Almost too aggressive. Um. Beard on beard is not ideal, but I'll take it. My man. Thank you. I almost got him. Thank you. I almost got him. Thank you. I almost got him. More That Was Us after this short break. Sitting around the table. Everyone talking all at once. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9% of grease. Leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier. So you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. A bold reimagining of John Steinbeck's master. A masterpiece following generations of the Trask family. Through love, betrayal, and the choices that shape humanity. Starring Mike Feist and Christopher Abbott as the Trask brothers. And Florence Pugh as Kathy Ames. The complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants. No matter the cost. Watch East of Eden now. Only on Netflix. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full. Use Palmolive Ultra. For more information visit palmolive.com. Listen, I'm not even going to try to make you smile or laugh. That's not the thing. I'm going to tell you about how incredibly moved I am to be your friend. And how your transparency as a human being is something that I think is worthy of emulation for all human beings. The way that you've talked about your addiction in the past, the way that you talk about how you're still moving through this. I think you're one of the most beautiful people I've ever met in my life. And you don't have to smile at that. You don't have to do anything. I just want you to receive it. Because I absolutely mean it. I love you. I love you too. So this game was just designed to make me look like a dick? Just to not smile and. I get it. That's it. You've. I love you. I love you too, buddy. I love the way you play the game. Thank you. And I do. I do receive that. Thank you. I wholeheartedly. I appreciate it. What about you, Mandy? Mandy's still smiling. I'm still smiling. I just haven't stopped. stop smiling. I think Mandy Moore is the heart and soul of This Is Us. I think the work that she did as Rebecca Pearson is probably one of the greatest performances over six years of television that anybody has ever put down. I think she is undersung because people knew her as a singer first. And so sometimes they're like, is she really an actor? Watch the work. All you have to do is watch the work, experience how connected she is in every moment on camera. This chick is a fucking beast. And if you guys don't recognize it, fucking recognize. Love you. Oh, love you. Thank you. This is a wild game. Loser. I'm a loser. I'm a loser and a winner. There you go. Yeah. There you go. Should we move on to the next? This game sucks. This game sucks, guys. I love this game. It was great. This was great. Well, now I want to give a real compliment. I know. I changed it. You didn't expect me to flip it. I tried to. I was like, I'm just going to go sincere. This game was called Sterling Takes the High Road. We're talking about success. And I'm curious for you guys. Have you ever had a working definition of what success is? What success means in your mind? When this came up as the topic, I was like, I have no idea what they're talking about. Really? Yeah. Because you don't feel like you've come up with it. It's ethereal. It's a hard. I'm so stuck on not getting to compliment both of you guys, but. Did you want to? I mean, yeah. Sorry. We moved too fast. No, no, no. I just like. I don't know. Is it weird now? No. I don't think Andy went. No, yeah, it's. I just feel. Yeah. I mean, for both of you, like, I echo what Sterling said, Chris. Like, there's something so profoundly human about your vulnerability and your generosity as a friend. You're the reason we're here. If it weren't for you, Chris, this podcast wouldn't exist. You are the muscle and the heart behind this whole operation. You do so much silently. You never ask for credit. You never ask for gratitude. And there is. You deserve all of that. And you're just such a wise human. You're never afraid to, like, you know, reveal every side of yourself, not just to us as your friends, but, like, the world at large. You're an unbelievably talented human. It is so. Such a joy to watch you do anything on camera, always. It's a joy to watch you on. It's a joy to watch you on stage where I feel like you really come alive in a way that, like, the camera doesn't get to capture. And you're just, like, one of my favorite people to be around. You make me laugh, and you do, too. Like, nobody else. And I feel so surprised and lucky that this opportunity for the three of us to pair up came about because I feel like as much as I knew you and loved you before, I know you in such a, like, profoundly holistic way that I wasn't expecting. And I'm really grateful for that. Yeah. That's very nice. Thank you. I smiled for a second. I think we all can smile. Yeah, I'm smiling. You. It's hard to pay you a compliment, Sterling. It's hard to, like, even begin to, like, dig into the treasure that you are as a human. It's, like, we all come across people who know you, who love you, and who have, you know, worked with you or even just, like, met you in passing. And they're like, I love Sterling. And it's. It's so universal. Everybody feels the same way about you. You. You are the brightest light in any room. You radiate a warmth. You radiate a curiosity that I find inspiring. I'm like, wow, that is such a great reminder to never stop learning, to never stop being open. And as someone who has found who can do anything, truly, you can do anything. You. You are everything. You are hilarious. You are the smartest person in every room. You knock us out with your vocabulary, your knowledge. You are truly what keeps this train running on this podcast as well. But it's just, like, you just never cease to amaze me that you are. You find the time for everything. You find the time for your family. You find the time for friends. You find the time to watch every single television show somehow. You know about every movie. You have this encyclopedia. You have this encyclopedic version, like, of everything. It's. You are. You're just a human, and I love you, and I feel so lucky that, like, our little corner of the world, our little six years of being together means that, like, I'm going to get to know you both for the rest of my life is the best gift I ever could have imagined. I love you, Mandy Moore. I love you. This is a fun game. Thank you. Now I'll do a real one. Now it's a real one. The idea of doing this together. Yeah. is not haphazard, right? It's not. Sure. It's not slapdash. It's very. From my part, I have always viewed both of you as two of the most self-realized people and artists that I've ever encountered. And that. Makes me feel alive. I love being around you. Likewise. And I love learning from you, both as parents and as people and as artists watching you work. And to be able to sit down and have heartfelt conversation and also make jokes and be silly. Yeah. And then. Yeah. And then stop and eat lunch and still be talking. Totally. You know what I mean? And then. It's a rare thing. So I'm just. I'm on. Every time we schedule another day of this, I'm like, I can't believe they're coming back for another day of this. This is incredible. I get to sit down with these two for another day of this. And I just. Driving here, no matter what is happening, I am always so excited to be here and so excited to see you and to talk to you. Because I can be going through like the. I told Mandy on the way, like right before I walked in, it was like life was just like. And I almost didn't care for the first time. I was like, but it's all right, because I'm going to do this and then I'll get back to that. And so I'm just. Every day I'm honored that you've taken the time to. Likewise. Times a million. And I just. I learned so much from you both. And so I'm very grateful for that. Likewise. Namaste. Namaste. What a nice little. Because, by the way, like to me, this is success. Yeah. Like to me, everything, every lovely word we all just said about each other, that is success. That is legacy. Like that to me is a big part of what's most important to me is, you know, the people that I am lucky enough to get to work with and respect them regarding me well and being able to learn from one another, learn from these. These collective shared experiences we're having. Everyone has a different definition of what success is. And I know this sort of, you know, piggybacks on everything that we're going to be talking about in this episode. And I feel like the definition definitely ebbs and flows and it shifts and it evolves as we get older in the same way that like our definitions of what love is, romantic love. Sure, yeah. But that's something that's always been constant to me is like. There's so much that's out of your control. Yeah. The things that you can control, like, I don't know, is there's so much value in that to me. And that is what I equate a lot of success to. All right. This is Mandy specific because I think you are the most known of us for the longest period of time. Let's not even talk about success, but let's talk about fame and how they're sort of in conjunction with success to a certain extent. What was it like to deal with fame early? Did it feel like, especially compared to the average teenager who was around you or whatnot? But I don't know. Yeah, it's like I don't know anyone else's experience but my own. Well, tell me about that experience. Did you feel isolated in the experience or did you feel welcomed in the experience? Both. Both. At different times. Yeah. I think I was aware that my situation was incredibly lucky. Sure. And other. Yeah. And so I had gratitude and grief and sometimes for what I was missing out on. Sure. I was sad to not like have the regular high school and college experience because that was something I had always sort of imagined for myself and envisioned for myself. So grieving that while also being grateful for like, oh, but I'm on a film set in Prague. Right. And not at my high school graduation or at prom. Yeah. Is like. to hold both of those things at the same time. Did you go to junior or senior year? Did you get a prom? I went to homecoming junior year. You got to homecoming, okay. Or sophomore or something. I think maybe it was sophomore. Did you win homecoming queen? No, no, no, no, no, no. I wasn't in school. No, I told you that was the one where I went back and like the girls were talking about me in the bathroom, like in a rom-com. I was like peeing. You were like in the stall. I was in the stall and they were like, she really, she thinks so highly of herself. Like, I can't believe she would come back. She doesn't even go to school here anymore. Like, who does she think she is? And then did you kick the door open? Yeah. And walk out? And do like a hair flip? Walk up to the mirror and put your lipstick on. And then you kiss the glass. And you're like, see you later, bitches. I should have. The movie version of me did that. This is very funny. The real life version waited in the stall until they left. Yeah. Obviously. Obviously. Obviously. That would have been my move. Yeah. So I'll start with the beginning. That happened to me a couple of nights ago, accidentally. Are you serious? Well, not that. I had to wait in the stall. I was at the director's guild and I wandered in to the restroom. And I'm in the stall. And then I hear high heels. And then I hear two ladies talking. I'm gone. And I'm like, oh, no. Oh, no, no, no, no. Oh, I'm in the. I'm in the wrong place. I'm in the women's restroom. Oh, God. Oh, dear. Oh, what's the play here, Sullivan? What's the play here? So I hovered. I almost woke that up. Waited for silence. I was able to get out of there without being arrested. That was my fear, is that I was going to come out. So someone was going to scream. Wee-oo, wee-oo, wee-oo. And security. Chris Sullivan found lurking in the women's restroom at the director's guild. I've totally done that. This is a star. I was on my phone. And the entrances were right next to each other. And I just wandered in. Well, the lettering wasn't clear on the outside. I went outside of the restroom, and I thought, like, oh, well, this is a unisex restroom. Yeah. And I was in the stall. And when I came out, it was nothing but women. Yeah. And I was just like, hey, guys. What I'm saying is my experience the other night was exactly like your experience. Got to wait it out. Got to wait it out. Got to wait it out. I got to wait this one out. Success. Well, OK. Yeah. Back to you. Sure. Do you feel finding fame later in life, both of you, actually. Yeah. How does that. Maybe, like, what is the perception you had of what it meant to be famous. Yeah. Versus the reality of your lived experience now for both of you. And your relationship to fame versus success. Like, what you were hoping for or dreaming about. Or did they ever go hand in hand. Yeah. There is some sort of overlap between the two. But they're not the same thing. For me, when I first got out of grad school, I said I had a conversation with God. And the conversation said, God, I paid all this money for this degree. Can I please make a living at doing the thing that I love doing? And paying the bills as an actor was what I defined success as being. Yeah. And I've been successful. I've been successful in that way since I got out of school. Right? I would say for me, the tipping point in the career was OJ, followed by This Is Us, followed by everything that's come after it. Right? There was a big turn between being a journeyman actor. Right? You're like, oh, I remember that guy from this episode of Supernatural. He was on Without a Trace. Oh, I remember. He did AR back in the day. And then be like, oh, I said this. I remember. People know your name without Googling you. This is it. Yeah. When they refer to you specifically, this is, and I knew this was a definition of success for me. If you don't call me the character name and you call me by my name. That's success. I remember thinking that. I remember thinking that like, oh, people think that I'm rolling. I mean, it's different from Army Wives, or I'm Randall, or I'm this character. But when people say, are you Sterling K. Brown? It means it's completely different now. Yeah, yeah. It hits you in a whole nother way. You say, no, get away from me. I said, leave me alone, ma'am. So that was also a part of it. But like, I think it's a much more sort of holistic thing. And it has more to do with life in general than it does about. The career specifically, because going home and knowing that I'm going into the arms of a woman who's loving and looking forward to seeing me, kids who are well provided for and are happy and are excited to go out into the world and make a contribution. I feel like that's when you're young, you don't necessarily think all you're thinking about is a career, probably. But like, by the time I got to 25, 26, I knew that the career was not. The end all. I knew it was a part of a successful life, but it wasn't the only thing in a successful life. Like, I've wanted to be a dad since I was 16, 17 years old. I think because I had all the nieces and nephews and everything. And I was like, ooh, children bring life. There's vitality whenever I'm in the presence of these beautiful, pure people that have like this curiosity and engagement with the world and they're seeing it with new eyes. Like that was something that was always going to be a part. Of the equation for me. So I think when that all came together and especially, honestly, in my mind, I always had two kids in my head. And Rai sort of like, she's like, how did you know this? And I was like, I don't know. Like I would have these like lucid dreams back in the day of like what it was going to look like. And it wasn't necessarily two boys, right. But it was two people like climbing on me and just like doing stuff. And I'm like, what are you doing? And they're like, I don't know. And I'm like, stop climbing on me. But I always just made me happy. Like when you went to the zoo and you saw like the bear cubs, I was like, that's that shit right there. I was like, that's what I'm saying. Like, I'm like this eternally youthful person. So I think like being in the presence of youth and having youth to be able to shape and guide and mold and sort of like turn them into the kind of people that I want to hang out with some day was part of it. Merriam-Webster defined success as the accomplishment of a desired goal. Okay. Or the favorable outcome of an endeavor. It is a highly personal concept that can range from achieving wealth, fame, and status to finding personal fulfillment, inner peace, and good health. Yeah. Yeah. So the idea of being successful is maybe too overarching of a term. Yeah. Phrase. Okay. Being successful. Yeah. Having successes. Sure. Successes. I can. I can. I can relate to and identify. Yeah. That was a successful endeavor that I achieved this goal. So I succeeded in achieving that goal. Yeah. But to be a success is a different thing, I think. Different concept. Especially now. What was the question? When you were young, what was the idea? Well, yeah. And this idea of fame and success. Right. That sort of. I. I. I definitely think there are huge pros and cons to fame. Yeah. And I don't want to listen. I want to maintain relatability. So I want to share it in such a way that people aren't, you know, oh, don't cry for me, Argentina. You know what I'm saying? There is. Also, also unrelatable. Right. The access to people want to be around you. Yeah. They want to invite you to galas. And, and things and to be on their shows, et cetera. And it's fun and it's cool and it's exciting, right? Then there is, um, the assumed knowledge of, I know who this person is. Right. And this person is here for my benefit and I am, but not only for your benefit. I'm also just like a dude in life. And that gets forgotten sometimes when you're just out in public. Yeah. Right. And you have to. I've had conversations about this recently. Like you have to draw these very firm boundaries about what you will allow and not allow. If you want to continue to be a person who is in communion with people. Right. Because my wife will ask me sometimes, you should get a gate. We should get a gate. We should. And I was like, no, I don't. And it's not a safety thing per se. I don't like the idea of keeping myself at arm's length because I love people. Right. But you can see how, as people sort of like grow in their fame can become more isolated because it's hard to just be out amongst people and then receive you as a person. Right. And you are just a person, like at the end of the day, like that's, that's what you are. Yeah. And so like people will be out and I say, oh my goodness, can I get this picture? And I'll say, no, but you can't get this hug and you can't get this handshake because right now I'm with my kids or right now I'm with my wife. Right now I'm with really close friends that I haven't had a chance to catch up with in a while. I want to make sure they get the time that they deserve. And you know what? People are real cool. They're like, once you sort of like lay it out for them in that way, they're like, you know what, bro? Completely get it. Thank you so much for your work and everything like that. Because I don't want to be someone who just stays in the house. Right. Yeah. Because you see like how that can happen. Yeah. Right. Right. So that's why fame and success are sort of like they run parallel sometimes. Yeah, they merge together at certain points, but they don't always have to. No, no. Yeah. Yeah. - Are you about to ask your question? - Oh, bother. - What's your question? - No, oh, bother. Lost my tail again. Is there anything that you thought, like, once you make it to a certain thing that you felt like you've made it? It was the same, like, when I was, I was living in Chicago and I, and I bought a condo. Yeah. - And was paying for my mortgage on this condo. - Yes, sir. - As a theater actor. - Yeah, man. - I was like. - I made it. How about this? How about these? - How about these boards? - Well, I got it. - Treading these boards. - I got it. You know, um, you know, the stuff like that has always been. I, it's, it's easy because it's physical, like it's a physical thing that you can point to and be like, I pay for my housing. - Yes. - With a thing that I do. - Sure. - But as I've gotten older, you know, I think it's, it's more it's, it's evolved into, into I re, overarchingly realizing that, that I, I am a, I am successful if, if the people around me feel - like the fullest versions of themselves. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - I like that. - If that, if that makes sense. - It does. - Yeah. But, so that's been a big shift from like, you know, in my journals, I was like, if I get an Academy Award. - Sure. - That will be a thing that I can put on a shelf. - Sure. - And point to and be like, success. - Yes. - Yeah. - You know, and, and so there's all these like physical things. - Yeah. - You know. - Yeah. - The car I want to drive. - I got you. - The, the, whatever it is. - I remember as a kid, even as a, you know, like teenager thinking, if I could have longevity, that is success. - Longevity in, in career or? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Longevity in career. If we're just talking in the professional world, if we're just talking in the professional realm. - Yeah. - That is success to me. - Is there a, is there a person, like a tent pole that you would look at and be like a career like hers would be, or his? - I've said it so many times lately, but I loved Bette Midler. - Mm-hmm. - Oh, yeah. - Loved. - Yes. - I still love, still love. She's still with us, thank God. - Yes. - Yeah. - But I mean, when I was a kid, my mom had this like tour book of hers that she went and saw her like in concert. And I would flip through and see her in all her different costumes, - Yeah. - but like I loved beaches. - Yeah. - And to know that she made records. - I've not seen beaches. - Oh. - Oh, look at that. - Yeah. - The tables have turned. - And I shared it just because I knew. - Thank you. - I've roasted so many times. - That makes me feel warm inside. - I need to see beaches. - We listened to two kinds of music in my mom's car growing up. - The Beaches Soundtrack? - Yep. - And what, wept, like? - And Paul Simon. - Wow. - That was it. - Graceland and The Beaches Soundtrack? - Literally, yes. - Wow, those are two real. - I love that. - Did you ever know? - ♪ I know that you're my hero ♪ - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But I loved that she made music, was on Broadway. Like I remember Gypsy, like she had just done Gypsy. She was in movies, obviously. - Yeah, yeah. - She did TV, she had a kid, she was married. Like I was like, "Oh, she does everything." And she's also like very much an individual. - Yeah. - Like she's not everyone's cup of tea. - Sure. - And I was like, "And she's been doing this since she was like, you know, in her 20s, like playing with Barry Manilow." Like, I just thought that was so cool. I'm like, I wanna do everything like her and she's still doing that. - Yeah. - So people like that, that I just was like, yeah, and Diane Keaton. Like there was actresses too that I was just like, wow, people that have really like carved their own path. That was really inspiring to me. But yeah, just longevity. I was like, I wanna do this forever. Like for as long as I'm allowed, as long as I'm interested still. - Yeah. - And I feel like in many ways, like my definition of success again, in the professional realm is still defined that way. - Yeah. - Because there's so much out of our control. - Sure. Was there ever anything else you were gonna do? - No. - Nothing? - No. - Ever? - From six on, I was like, I'm going to sing and act. - I love it. - You? - You? - I didn't find acting until, I didn't, my first play freshman year of high school, I did Godspell. - Same. - Was in the ensemble and I was like, ooh, this is fun. And this is a high that I can receive that I get on the football field and the basketball court and nobody's hitting me and that feels nice. - Yeah. - And then I didn't have the- - And there's girls. - There's girls too. And then it wasn't until, you know, sophomore year of college where I sort of like actually chose it as a pathway. So up until then, I had dreams of being like, a football coach. I loved kids. Like I loved being a, although the two times I've been a counselor, I was not asked back the next year because they told me that I played too much with the kids. - Like a camp counselor? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I could see that. - They told you like you- - Like you were one of the kids. - Yeah, basically. - Sterling, if you would like to attend the camp, you're going to have to pay. - Yeah. - We're not going to pay you. - Right? That was the rep that I got there, but I knew I wanted to do something with kids, but it wasn't clear exactly what it was going to be. - Yeah. - Something with sports or maybe even in the theater, but what about you besides tennis? - I mean, yeah, there was, you know, around 14, 15, there was the possibility of trying to play professionally. - Okay. - That's probably about the crossroads for most young men, 13, 14, 15, whether you're all in or you're all out. Being a coach, my coach, I would coach tennis during the summers at Stanford. - Okay. - And then there were brief little like four years into, I had looked up and actually sent an application in to the FBI because I loved the X-Files so much. - Cute. - Yeah. - I love it. That's awesome. - And I was like, I'd like to be a part of your ghost division. I was like, whatever it was. But I was like, that'd be interesting. And then I had a friend at my church who was a sheriff. And I'm like, oh, law enforcement, that's interesting. I thought about it, I looked into that. - Okay. - It was like one of those like, or high school things were like, what do you want to be? And you're like, I don't know, well, how about this? And then, yeah, once, I think once high school, once I started doing plays, I was like, how do I do this? - Okay. - And it wasn't even about like, 'cause I was in Sacramento. I was like, I don't, there's no movies or no TV. Like, I'm not gonna do that, I'm gonna do theater. - Yeah. - For the rest of my life. And then I found Chicago, which is like, oh, you can actually do theater. - Yeah. - For the rest of your life and own a house and put your kids through school. - Sure. - But then I thought, you know, speaking of success, I thought Broadway's the thing. Once I do that, that will be. - That's the ticket. - That's the thing. And it was for a short time. - Yes. - And then you're like, well, yeah. - We'll be right back with more "That Was Us." - This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments, it's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. - That was awesome. Shop now at Palmolive. Palmolive.com Okay, but speaking similarly to the question you just asked me, was there anybody in both of your lives who you sort of looked to to emulate? You're like, that is, that's my idea of success. That's what success looks like to me. I got five people in my head. But there's a very specific sort of five people because the first two just passed away, not too long ago, are Hackman and Duvall. I was always fascinated by the fact that they were roommates in New York City. Wow, yeah. I was like, these two dudes, like, knew each other, and they went on to become, like, these people. I was like, that's insane, right? You know, I remember watching To Kill a Mockingbird, and I was like, that's his first movie? It's Boo Radley? Like, Duvall's first role is, like, Boo Radley in To Kill a Mockingbird. I was like, are you kidding? He was 35. I remember when he got his first film role, and I was like, all right, still got time to know that people like, hit it a little bit later because sometimes when you're young you're like oh if it hasn't happened is it gonna happen that sort of thing right but i remember just two master craftsmen who like put in their time and work they knew it i don't know there's something that just touched me and i have like these friends of mine whether it's andre holland or brian kenry and terrell mccraney and i was like oh this is we may kind of be like them one day yeah like people may talk about us the way that i'm thinking about hackman and devol right okay then as a young black man two biggest stars i think at that time in in entertainment outside of michael jackson eddie murphy and denzel washington eddie murphy in terms of comedy denzel washington in terms of drama whatnot and it's like oh man like these brothers are huge but it's also is this feeling this weird thing is like it was kind of a highlander mentality with regards to brothers that there can be only one right you know what i'm saying i was like i don't know if i can just be the one you know hopefully there'll be a little bit more space when you when we get used to be the state of things right it really did yeah really and they've i've heard them talk about that to a certain extent right then the last person i mentioned is don cheeto because i felt like he's he's got his wife and long-term partner and he's got kids he would do film he'd do television i saw him uh at the public theater do top dog underdog with jeffrey wright and i remember watching it just just out of grad school and being like that's it that's it that's it and i remember seeing him do interviews talking about like you know i could go around and doing movies all the time and it'd be great but i would miss so much of my children's lives that i made conscious choices to be present for them so i can see this happen too and i'm like yeah i can do all of that that's it that's the shit and so like those five people right but like don towards the end really just being like oh man there's balance here there's a there's a thoughtfulness like there's an intentionality to it that he created something that he wanted to do that could sustain not just his career but his family yeah around him as well his universe yeah yeah what about you bud only tom hanks i mean those movies one after the other just like your forrest gump's your philadelphia's your apollo 13s you're all and there's something about and there remains to be something about him that's that's you never catch the guy acting right so when i was growing up i didn't really even understand that he was acting yeah it was just like he's a guy yeah who everyone different situation yeah who everyone seems to like yeah who seems to be a very likable person and he's like the most special unspecial person you know what i mean like i i don't know how to say that without it sounding derogatory but call him an everyman is what yeah yeah yeah yeah and and to have the opportunities to to play all those different roles and and he was definitely like in our house and in my house and in my mind like that's it was bosom buddies part of your youth yes okay yeah maybe in reruns okay okay yeah let's check it let's check it yeah yeah well for sure i was like i i remember watching it i was like oh the the dude from bosom buddies and then yeah and then he was just like it you know i feel like something similar happened um mcconaughey had this like mini run of things when he turned 40. i was like this dude just took some sort of magic acting pill because he's killing it like he mcconaughey from from uh um he took like a true detective like a decade off yeah true detectives and then like the dallas bias club and then i was like oh bro he's killing it yeah right because he had to walk away he had to he had to walk away from his rom-com sure identity yeah right uh hanks is a great one i i love tom hanks love tom hanks the end of captain phillips you were talking about somebody not acting sometimes like there's 90 seconds there's a few moments where i watch people and i think i've said this before and i was like oh that's a good choice i like that choice i would have made a choice similar i would have made a choice different i like that then there's a moment where you go oh no he did that yeah i don't know i did that and that's one of those i haven't seen the movie oh boy i mean that's not surprising you could just watch that youtube the last scene of captain phillips and understand that a captain has been yeah has has been taken hostage on his ship and then just watch that scene it's like man it's stupid it's stupid it is it is michael jordan dunking from the free throw line stupid you're just like how what the stupid never seen before yeah okay and it's just him you should probably watch the movie i'm only saying that because it may add the context of it because sometimes if you jumped it you remember i showed you guys you remember i showed you guys the clip of oh girl explaining death yes yes yes i've shared that with so many people paul appell paul appell oh i forgot about the rally paul there will come a time 48 hours before you die yeah so good um okay i'm jumping around so there are different tent poles for success for me like what you were talking about buying the condo like using your wage off of your art to provide a life for yourself right paying back my student loans was a moment mm-hmm where i was just like oh boy i didn't i know i think my brother it's i don't know my sister i think my brother's still paying back student loans my brother's 14 years older than me remember this right they can they can get you and kids coming out of college now if you don't have a lot of help or oh boy um so that's the rest of your life paying that getting the condo with ryan yeah right but also like my wedding was like one of the best days of my life like success bro it felt so good yeah it to be surrounded by friends and family of celebrating your love or what have you i mean i had a very similar feeling with the with the roast like honestly it was this is success like the cultivation of of relationships you can tell the people my me roasting you was as good as as marrying ryan hands down that's what you can tell hands down that's basically what that's basically what he was period yeah right period but is what you were saying earlier mandy there are these moments when you think of yourself in a particular way and i think i'm this way or whatnot but then you're able to see something in the reflection of the relationships that you have nurtured in life and you're like if these people love me yeah i'm doing something right correct and it doesn't even feel like self-congratulatory this is like no i'm friends with dope ass people i must be dope in order to be with these people yes you know what i'm saying that's right like that's pretty fucking awesome too yeah now i will also talk go into this there's a couple of other ones where friends of mine would say this when it happened first time i was on sesame street oh yeah friends were like bro you're on sesame street you're like talking to ernie i was like that was pretty cool yeah had the privilege of doing snl yes that was another one where friends were like all right milestone it's happened yeah it's done right like i mean i had a buddy send me a text he was like fuck your emmy you're on snl yeah yeah a lot of friends were like oh my god you're on snl you're on snl yeah but also don't fuck david like yeah they're sharp you can't you can't yeah they're very pointed yeah yeah it would hurt yeah um so there are these moments but like there's nothing that feels like you're done because there is this other part like if you use that as like sort of the tentpole thing then you also have to recognize that you're only as good as the last thing you've done yeah right and and then you just go like i think there's instead of like a moment of arriving at something there's a moment of a appreciation i was like that was cool it was cool to be recognized it was cool to be this now i want to go do something else right right because there's always something else to be done yeah yeah yeah and it's not on to bigger and better it's just on to the next what's next what's next like you mandy like i don't want to stop doing this i i have this vision of myself at whatever age like saying lines and being you know one day i'll be the grandpa like i've been the dad and you'll be and i loving every bit of it yeah yeah being on set is is my church and i don't mean that to sound like sacrilegious to anybody or anything like that but like when the zone is happening yeah and the spirits are flowing 100 you know what i'm saying like that there's nothing more magical there's a day there's a day in particular where i remember this and it had nothing to do with me it was the day and it'll come up in this season season six where mandy moore is sort of explaining to her kids like what's about to go down and what she expects from them when it goes off i remember getting up from the table walking away i like you get you won't be able to get this on camera you won't even hear it i was just like this is what i'm fucking here for bro this this bro is acting so hard i can just do it over and over again i was like yeah let's go oh awesome there were so many times during the course of our show that i felt not like that but just like what like i would leave and i'd be radiating like oh this is how it's supposed to feel yeah this is electric this is magic well to succeed to succeed as an artist right the for the longest time i was trying to figure out what it what it is right so we identify this passion right this passion for performing or or for for collaborating with other people or or for whatever the thing is and and the and the passion leads us to a to a purpose as as we get older maybe we identify our we do has a deeper purpose than maybe we we first identified and there's i was talking about this at a fyc event the other night which is probably not the place to talk about it because nobody an fyc event wants to hear about the oneness of everything you feel that i do you could feel the room turn they're like oh uh okay the oneness of everything um but that that's what all art every every art form in any form is trying to do is trying to remind us of the oneness of everything yeah and to give you a way into that oneness whether it's through this family or this character or a s or a song lyric to remind you of a universal truth something that is true not objectively not subjectively something that is true yeah with a capital t yeah and we as as actors from the inside of it know when it's happening we can see when another actor has gone there and they're like oh and that's when you have to drop in and and and support as much as you can and participate as much as you can and not interrupt and not get in the way and lift and and participate and for a moment it's like those moments in church where where ever well everyone's singing really nicely today moving baby people are at harmony in church where where everyone's singing really nicely today moving baby people are at harmony harmonizing wow harmonizing wow harmonizing wow people are in rhythm yeah which is also why people are in rhythm yeah which is also why people are in rhythm yeah which is also why it feels so painful on those days when it it feels so painful on those days when it it feels so painful on those days when it doesn't feel that way sure you're like oh doesn't feel that way sure you're like oh doesn't feel that way sure you're like oh my god oh my god yeah we're missing the my god oh my god yeah we're missing the my god oh my god yeah we're missing the point today right or the or whatever point today right or the or whatever point today right or the or whatever we're doing is not getting at any we're doing is not getting at any we're doing is not getting at any truth yeah you know that doesn't have truth yeah you know that doesn't have truth yeah you know that doesn't have to be high art right but as long as it to be high art right but as long as it to be high art right but as long as it gets at some kind of truth absolutely gets at some kind of truth absolutely gets at some kind of truth absolutely then we will have succeeded yes you know then we will have succeeded yes you know then we will have succeeded yes you know and i think we've found on on this and i think we've found on on this and i think we've found on on this podcast that podcast that podcast that our show succeeded in in doing that in our show succeeded in in doing that in our show succeeded in in doing that in ways that we never ways that we never ways that we never even imagined agreed yeah even imagined agreed yeah even imagined agreed yeah become an artist it became from me it become an artist it became from me it become an artist it became from me it came from me but before when i was an came from me but before when i was an came from me but before when i was an economics major and i had the job at the economics major and i had the job at the economics major and i had the job at the federal reserve bank and i thought that federal reserve bank and i thought that federal reserve bank and i thought that money was the end-all be-all right i was money was the end-all be-all right i was money was the end-all be-all right i was definitely following a track that i definitely following a track that i definitely following a track that i think it laid down was laid down for me think it laid down was laid down for me think it laid down for me but not by me just what what was but not by me just what what was but not by me just what what was expected yeah expected yeah expected yeah of me as soon as at age 20 i was like of me as soon as at age 20 i was like of me as soon as at age 20 i was like no no no no no no no no no no no no money's not that important right money's not that important right money's not that important right i got and i had to and it's not that i i got and i had to and it's not that i i got and i had to and it's not that i wanted to live destitute or i had some wanted to live destitute or i had some wanted to live destitute or i had some sort of glamorized version of a starving sort of glamorized version of a starving sort of glamorized version of a starving artist like i wanted to artist like i wanted to artist like i wanted to live but it wasn't the end game the end live but it wasn't the end game the end live but it wasn't the end game the end game wasn't game wasn't game wasn't the pursuit of finance the end game was the pursuit of finance the end game was the pursuit of finance the end game was the pursuit the pursuit the pursuit of of art of joy of that oneness that of of art of joy of that oneness that of of art of joy of that oneness that you're talking about of purpose you're talking about of purpose you're talking about of purpose and once you find that then the other and once you find that then the other and once you find that then the other things are the windfall from it things are the windfall from it things are the windfall from it right but if you're chasing the external right but if you're chasing the external right but if you're chasing the external without sort of finding the reason for without sort of finding the reason for without sort of finding the reason for it it was an empty pursuit of money it it was an empty pursuit of money it it was an empty pursuit of money right yeah and i'm sure i'm people right yeah and i'm sure i'm people right yeah and i'm sure i'm people probably have that thing probably have that thing probably have that thing that they do and they may have a lot of that they do and they may have a lot of that they do and they may have a lot of money but they don't have money but they don't have money but they don't have the other thing that's like lighting the other thing that's like lighting the other thing that's like lighting them up from within right you know right them up from within right you know right them up from within right you know right then there's this other thing that then there's this other thing that then there's this other thing that happens where i say i thank god at age happens where i say i thank god at age happens where i say i thank god at age 20 i made it because 20 i made it because 20 i made it because my brother is a brilliant barbecue my brother is a brilliant barbecue my brother is a brilliant barbecue artist i think i've talked about this artist i think i've talked about this artist i think i've talked about this like earlier on in the podcast like earlier on in the podcast like earlier on in the podcast and has this this big pit and will cook and has this this big pit and will cook and has this this big pit and will cook his meat for like 16 hours his meat for like 16 hours his meat for like 16 hours over a day and it's just falling off the over a day and it's just falling off the over a day and it's just falling off the bone delicious and he's a pharmaceutical bone delicious and he's a pharmaceutical bone delicious and he's a pharmaceutical salesman salesman salesman because it was the practical thing to do because it was the practical thing to do because it was the practical thing to do and he had responsibility he had kids and he had responsibility he had kids and he had responsibility he had kids earlier whatnot he said if i had to do earlier whatnot he said if i had to do earlier whatnot he said if i had to do it over again i may have gone into this it over again i may have gone into this it over again i may have gone into this thing it over again i may have gone into this thing i'm glad for me that i don't have i'm glad for me that i don't have i'm glad for me that i don't have that conversation with myself i did the that conversation with myself i did the that conversation with myself i did the thing thing thing i made the switch right that's the i made the switch right that's the i made the switch right that's the greatest gift i've ever given to greatest gift i've ever given to greatest gift i've ever given to sterling brown and saying like you know sterling brown and saying like you know sterling brown and saying like you know what what what this might be dumb but it feels right this might be dumb but it feels right this might be dumb but it feels right yeah and i gotta see where this goes yeah and i gotta see where this goes yeah and i gotta see where this goes otherwise i'm gonna be asking myself otherwise i'm gonna be asking myself otherwise i'm gonna be asking myself that question that question that question that was probably my greatest success that was probably my greatest success that was probably my greatest success yeah yeah yeah right if we can if we can identify our right if we can if we can identify our right if we can if we can identify our passions passions passions our passion will eventually reveal to us our passion will eventually reveal to us our passion will eventually reveal to us our purpose our purpose our purpose and the people in my life who i deem and the people in my life who i deem and the people in my life who i deem a a a a quote-unquote success are people who a quote-unquote success are people who a quote-unquote success are people who obey their purpose obey their purpose obey their purpose above all else yes yes yep above above all else yes yes yep above above all else yes yes yep above partner partner partner above finance above finance above finance above circumstance above circumstance above circumstance above above above whatever it is this is my purpose whatever it is this is my purpose whatever it is this is my purpose yeah and i know that yeah and i know that yeah and i know that and i will do anything to stay true to and i will do anything to stay true to and i will do anything to stay true to that right first yeah because if you're that right first yeah because if you're that right first yeah because if you're not true to that not true to that not true to that then you then you then you can almost instantly be identified as can almost instantly be identified as can almost instantly be identified as inauthentic to yourself bro if you stand inauthentic to yourself bro if you stand inauthentic to yourself bro if you stand for nothing what do you fall for you for nothing what do you fall for you for nothing what do you fall for you that's right waffling yeah that's right that's right waffling yeah that's right that's right waffling yeah that's right that's right yeah i didn't mean for aaron that's right yeah i didn't mean for aaron that's right yeah i didn't mean for aaron bird of castrays they're just like bird of castrays they're just like bird of castrays they're just like hamilton oh no that's all sorry aaron hamilton oh no that's all sorry aaron hamilton oh no that's all sorry aaron when appropriate when appropriate Call into the speak pipe. Yeah. Let us know what your thoughts are. So what do you want your children? Ooh. How do you want them to relate to success? We had an interesting thing with Bear. Bear wants to be first. Okay. Wants to be first in line. Wants to be the first one walking in a door. Yeah. He wants to be first. Okay. He wants to be the leader. Yeah. And Rachel reframed it for him in a way that was like instantly helpful for him. And she was essentially just saying, you know, being a leader doesn't necessarily mean you're always in front. It means that everyone you are with arrives safely. I like that. And it was like a way for him to like reprocess what that means. For a five-year-old. Yeah. So he wasn't always literally like knocking people over. He's a big boy. To be first. Yeah. To be the winner. Yeah. To be a success. To be the champion. Whatever the, you know, it's like, and you can see it. It's kind of really, I don't know what the word is, in children's entertainment where it's like, we got to win this race. It's like every cartoon. It's like, whatever we do, we can't lose. You know, and it's a bunch of monster trucks, like knocking each other over to like, and so bear bears the same where he gets, gets an arm going. It's like, I got to win. I get it. There's nothing to win. Yeah. You know, the four just going in to eat lunch or whatever. The four of us, the four of us walking in to eat lunch. The first one inside wins. Oh, no, totally. Gus is like, I got upstairs first. I'm like, it's not a race to go to the bath. My friend. Yeah. You did. You got upstairs first. What, what does it mean? What's the point? What is it? What is success? What do I want my kids to think about? I feel like there is a great joy in extending effort towards something that you enjoy doing. I want to see, I feel like a lot of teenagers sometimes will go through this moment of like, an extension of effort looks inherently uncool. Right. To try too hard. To look thirsty. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I want everybody to work through that time and phase. Yes. Stay thirsty, my friend. Because there is, I feel like, and this is sort of just mincing terms to a little bit, but like, I feel like work when it's its best is hard, but not arduous. Like you, you have to put something into it. Right. Right. In order to get something out of it that is of some value. But while you're putting that something into it, there's a certain joy just in the process of doing it. Yeah. So I hope that they find joy in the process of whatever they're doing, because I think that's a lot of what we're talking about is that it's not an end result. To get good at failing. It is, it is to learn through process that that is everything. Right. The process is it. Like you can ask me for another take. What is it? And another take or whatnot. And I was like, there's no perfect take, right? There will be a take that I'm like, all right, that was a good one. I like that one. So I know if we don't get anything else, I know I got that one at least. But like there's times where you can ask me, I could do it over and over again. And then I'm like, all right, we got to make the day. So that's solid too. But like each time is an opportunity for me to do the thing that I love. Yeah. So it's like, I try to resist the idea of being frustrated and be like, no, I signed up for this shit. This is the fun part. Right. And so I want them to find something that they have an equivalent level of joy where whether anybody sees them doing it or not, they know they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. Like, I hope they don't have a lingering thought in their head about like, is this it for me? Like, is this what I, like, I feel like what you said, Chris, when that revelation happens, it's almost inignorable. You're like, no, no, no, this is it. And you have to listen to that. And go. Yeah. I hope my kids also just are, are aware of creating their own idea of success or what success. looks like or just how how they define it individually and to not feel burdened that they have to measure some version of success alongside me and their dad you know it's like i don't want them to my husband and i talk about this a lot like i don't i am incredibly lucky to have found the success that i have in my life i am by no means there are people that are far more successful at what we all do than i am but i don't but i don't want i don't want my kids to look at what i do or what their father does and say like oh we were just lucky i want them to realize the work that we put into it yeah but i don't want them to feel burdened and i don't want them to feel burdened and i don't want them to feel burdened and i don't want them to feel burdened by not achieving some perceived level that's equivalent to like where i've yeah found myself or where taylor has or you know with whatever path they choose in life i mean i'm i'm not sure that either of the kids are any either the boys just because i i know them a little more they're a little older than lou but um i'm not sure either of them are are going to be artists but if they choose to be especially i hope that they don't feel that's a good point you know what i mean i don't know notoriety has anything to do with success well sure or if for some reason they don't achieve whatever level of success they believe i've achieved that they've somehow failed or that i don't want them to feel like burdened by that sure sure i have a question it's not a hot take but i want to i want to ask for a clarification of terms and for definition what because you used it twice how do you define luck what is luck because you said lucky twice and i want to i'm pushing back in the gentle way but like what is luck how's it luck showed up in your life i feel like it's what did they say the marriage of opportunity and preparation and yeah yeah i mean i do feel that way yeah like what sets me apart from any other successful i'm sorry talented person out there sure i happen to be in the right place at the right time i am not negating that i haven't worked hard for it that i do you know what i mean okay but i absolutely believe that a huge part of why i sit in this chair today has to do with luck yeah what do you think about luck what do you how do you define the same thing yeah i used to i used to talk about you know my acting career as like we all show up to a sandwich shop and we all take a number okay and you know sometimes your number's called 247 you all right well they just called 36 i guess i guess i gotta you gotta wait for my sandwich here yeah in the meantime i guess i'll think about what i want to order right you know the metaphor falls apart pretty quick but um uh but it's about persistence yeah you know there are there are people you know by my quote-unquote egotistical estimation who are less talented than i am that are more successful and there are people that i've encountered who are more successful who are way more talented than i am yeah who don't have the same notoriety yeah yeah or or or that i have that i have yeah and so what's the difference what's it's it's an it is there's a certain amount of preparation there is a certain amount of training yeah and then when the opportunity arises are you prepared right you know and and there have been plenty of opportunities that have arisen that i've not been prepared for okay and it and it didn't work out for me yeah you know what i mean yeah and and for for the thing that i i've said it in here before but the thing that i think about when i get a role is like every role that i do get has everything to do with me and every role that i do not get has nothing to do with sure the things that need to align yeah for me god i really hope i don't look like the casting director's ex-husband or you know what i mean or i you know so or or i hope i hope uh the person they're partnering me with isn't uh isn't five foot one yeah right you know like you know what i mean like there's all of these things that go in sure that are that are by chance yes like not necessarily luck by the by the proper definition but there's so many things that need to go right yeah do you take objection to that idea no no i don't i i think what i my mom used to always like uh talk to me about luck and she would have this thing about i don't even know if mom's definition even works for me i think i'm more sort of like in in a quantum field sort of uh image and reality place in my life and where like the the life that you see the out picturing of the life that we live is just a reflection of the image that you already have in your head and and so in that same sort of res way you know we find what we're looking for is you know we find what we're looking for sort of thing and i think for me because success has never been attached to um a particular achievement of something but just the work itself the work itself and the ability to make a living to live off of right i i don't want to say like i i do it for free but the ability to make a living but not necessarily have to have you know all the things in the world i feel like i feel like we find what we're looking for and i feel like that clarity of thought that you had at age six leads to a certain life right like nobody was going to tell you that it wasn't going to be so you're like this is what i'm going to do and i think there is something about that clarity of thought and vision that creates its own luck if that makes sense sure do you know what i'm saying because i think for most people i believe that there is something about that clarity of thought because i think for most people i believe we allow the doubts to shroud that level of clarity to the point where it's like maybe i didn't really think that maybe i wasn't actually yeah maybe that was never intended you know i'm saying and they sort of like talk themselves out of it it's easier to accept if we have some control do you know what i'm saying but i do think that there's something about a six-year-old girl who's like this is it there was something about a 20-year-old brown was like this is what we're going to do like once that choice is made i feel like that is part of the creation of luck right also okay i like that totally yeah that's all i'm saying yeah there's ownership in the luck and the dedication to never-ending preparation yeah yeah yeah because it's it does it's not the each audition is a new preparation that's what it is you know what i mean like that thought process yeah is the beginning of something it's not the end of something sure do you know what i mean because i'll make it this way back in the day when i'd be at home and be like well pray for so-and-so all right what are we praying for just pray that they and then folks would sit and they would pray and i think that there is extreme power in prayer but i feel like prayer is the beginning of something right if you're using prayers like the end of something like like whatever it is that you're doing is going to inspire some kind of action and it is the action that comes from that prayer which is the thing that you really need to pay attention to because i feel like the prayer in and of itself if you're just sitting there and and nothing else comes from it then i don't know how authentically you really prayed that's interesting interesting hot take not so i've always i've always been intrigued by the idea of in the midwest south even even the church i grew up in sure praying for other people uh-huh yeah and and especially when it's public yeah i was like what's going on here and we pray for daniel that he gets another job that he gets his life together in front of like in front of people yeah and let's hope he has a wife soon and some kids yeah like i've seen it happen okay you have seen it happen where it's like it's like people very specific putting their putting their hopes on someone else yeah in the form of yeah of prayer that's always that maybe has nothing to do with what you're talking about it's just it was reminding me that the idea of connecting with that unity yeah can be can be a very personal but also telling thing again i don't want to get to you i'm going to get to i want to talk about success i guess i can't offline with you on this and the lord said to me offline with you on this one let's talk about the end the end of life well one of the things that that popped into my mind i have the same feeling about um about a little bit of everything taylor's song ah okay that that song is the idea of success oh well the message of that song or the the song that i that i looked up there's a song by the avid brothers called no hard feelings okay one of these songs that i was like oh that if if if this i'm just gonna read the lyrics here when my body won't hold me anymore and it finally sets me free will i be ready when my feet won't walk another mile my lips give their last kiss goodbye will my hands be steady when i lay down my fears my hopes and my doubts the rings on my fingers and the keys to my house with no hard feelings and to live a life that amounts to no hard feelings when i leave it yeah not from me to anyone else yeah or from anyone else to me those hard feelings yeah that's pretty succinct is beautiful the song is just like right on the nose you're like wow okay there there it is yeah some of the questions in our in our format we're just talking about like the end of your life like like what would you want people to say about you or to i don't know i don't know it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't matter to me almost what people say yeah when i'm gone or or when i you know at my funeral or whatever the thing is but to but to leave the world with no hard feelings is an interesting concept i like the concept i i i always when i think about sterling brown jr and like so many the nature of memory becomes more ephemeral as time passes and remembering specifics is hard to sort of remember right but the feeling that he left me with of being loved unconditionally is a feeling that won't go away right like it's just it's like it's eternal right right and i hope my mom used to say this thing when i would go spend the night over somebody's house and i try to tell my kids and i hope they're doing something of it although i think we can all do better it's like leave things better than you found yes you know i'm saying and she would say if you leave things better than you found them you'll always be asked back right that's that's pretty much what i i try to do just try to leave it a little bit better than you found it actors who don't and i'm sure you guys are in the same camp as me i've i've heard this from certain people in the trailer who don't like hang up their clothes when you're done at the end of the day and man don't let people clean up shit for you you know i'm saying like that is your number one here's my question because i don't hang up some things something if they need to be washed you can lay them lay them close next to the shoes so they can pick them up and do it i fold that's fine and put everything in one spot but i thought that was all getting taken off the hanger anyways sometimes sometimes i think they stay on the hanger i just put i put things back on the hanger there are certain things there are certain things in our industry there are certain things in our industry that you never see anybody else do of course and so you're like what do we do here and i was like i just put everything here if it's they gave me socks or underwear i'm not putting them back on the hangar yeah sure use them and they've been close to my body dirty sweaty shirt if it's dirty and sweaty i may fold it up and put it on the floor but sometimes i just put back underwear you just take those home i give them back oh i take them home i wear them home i'm like i'm wearing underwear you can buy some other underwear got it you don't want to wash my dirty underwear ew yeah i would what what what did you say i always take that home socks no always undergarments yes yeah but your underwear probably maybe not a bra not a not a bra but like underwear for sure i'm like that's intimate i'm not yeah yeah not it's not as close not not doing that yeah aren't they washing the clothes every night but by the way i usually like there's very few times they only provide underwear a dress like a certain you know what i mean like a slip dress then they have the underwear i think this episode of this podcast has been a success i think it's been an absolute success it is you know what like the career i think is success is about life is is about i don't know i said it at the the roast like the relationships that you have like when i think about the milestones that i've that i've achieved and they've been numerous and i've been deeply appreciative and they're awesome i'm not going to be able to take any of those awards with me i was going to say in the casket but i'm going to be cremated right but but i do know i i like i know that the love goes forward right like because i still feel sterling brown i still feel lurline banks who's arlene brown's mom i still feel andrew jacob dare who's my best friend who's my best friend who's my buddy who passed away the year that we graduated from school like i still feel their presence right and so i think obeying that thing that still small voice yeah inside of you that is guiding you towards your own truth right because he who can name the way doesn't know the way taoism is my path is different than yours is different than yours is different than yours and you gotta listen gotta listen to that thing man that says like oh this is for you and whatever that thing is for you man the greatest gift you can give to yourself is is to listen that's yeah that's it that's it yeah good convo that was us chat chat oh sorry chat was us dog that was us is filmed at rabbit grin studios and produced by rabbit grin productions music by taylor goldsmith and griffin goldsmith that was us that was a hate gum podcast this episode is brought to you by netflix's new series east of eden a bold reimagining of john steinbeck's masterpiece following generations of the trask family through love betrayal and the choices that shape you humanity starring mike feist and christopher abbott as the trask brothers and florence pew as kathy ames the complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants no matter the cost watch east of eden now only on netflix at zoc doc we know you care about your health you wouldn't do that early morning cardio if you didn't so the fact that your annual physical is overdue just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor sorry that doctor's not in the network press one for more options you've reached us outside normal business hours the next availability is in three months but zoc doc makes finding the right doctor easy download the app and search by specialty insurance and availability read real patient reviews then book instantly zoc doc ready to be seen