Chat Was Us | Caregiving

This is a headgum podcast. Gang, welcome back to another installment of Chat was Us. Where we take a break from the rewatch and dive into a topic inspired by the themes of this is us. Today we're talking about something that touches nearly every family at some point in life, caregiving. That's right, whether it's raising children, caring for aging parents, supporting a spouse through illness or helping a loved one through a difficult season. Caregiving is one of the most universal experiences we have, and one of the least talked about. This is us explored caregiving in so many forms and ultimately helped millions of viewers feel seen. Today we are joined by Lydia's story to talk about why those stories mattered, how they changed real conversations, and what we can all learn about caring for one another. Welcome Lydia. Thank you so much for having me, it's so good to be here. We get to share the couch, I'm so cozy on this couch. Chris has been having this while, you have loomed large in our unconscious, she's coming. She's coming because we crossed paths, I guess two years ago now, two and a half years ago, I was at Sundance with the movie and I wandered into this, they had Sundance, they set up all of these artist spaces where people are doing conversations and Q&As and all of these things. I walked in and I got a cup of coffee and I was stood in the back and I was listening to what this panel was talking about, I looked down at the table, and there's a picture of Mandy Moore and they had had a handout and I'll just say what it was, you were discussing a survey that the Norman Lear Center had done with a thousand adults and they had analyzed social media to compile a presentation. This is what art is supposed to do, how a caregiving storyline on this is us helped audiences feel seen. Yes, that's right, and that's how we met. Yeah, I was moderating this panel where we were sort of sharing for the first time publicly, the results of a research project that carrying across generations, which is the organization I work for, engaged the USC Norman Lear Center's Media Impact Project to really look at the effect that the show in particular. Clearly, the final season, season six of this is us and an impact campaign that we were fortunate enough to collaborate on with NBC and our friends at hilarity for charity, to really amplify the representation that the show gave to family caregiving so this research study really wanted to kind of analyze how the story lines impacted attitudes for viewers and then how the impact campaign that we produced led to different kinds of engagement and conversation. And it was really incredible to be validated in our assumptions that it was a very, very meaningful representation and a really meaningful opportunity for people to actually understand their own experiences differently relate to other people's experiences differently and also feel comfortable actually sharing more publicly what they've been going through in their own lives. So that's a big deal. And we had cross paths too. You reminded me. Thank you so much that like towards the end of the show, Chrissie and John and I sat down and had a conversation with your CEO or your co-founder, your co-founder, as well as Lauren Miller, Rogan and Seth Rogan, to really kind of focus on the ground, honestly ground breaking representation of caregiving across the entire series, but in particular that final season. We posted that content online and reached about three million people with it. So thank you for doing that. That's our pleasure to continue the conversation. When we met, I was like, we're starting a podcast. We should have a conversation. And now here we are in season six. Here we are in just really admire the tenacity that you have that idea and you've stuck with it for 10 years. Sally is the reason the entire reason that we are here doing this podcast to begin with. So it's not uncommon and unheard of to think that Chris is just he has a vision and he sees it through the show has tackled a lot of subject matter that maybe isn't popular subject matter for television because there's not really the context for especially a caregiving storyline like this with Rebecca and and Miguel. I mean, there's the whole other side of that the caregiving storyline that that focuses on Miguel and the position he has has taken him that the position he's taken on in the family the responsibility that he's taken on and how difficult that was for him as a as a character in our show. Yeah, it was really important to you because we've understood for a long time that many, many people in this country, so there are about 130 million people who are kind of in the sick of care right now if you take parents anyone who's caring for an older adult or disabled family member. The care workers and disabled people themselves or anybody who needs to take paid leave so if you're kind of encompassing that entire spectrum of the population it's quite a lot and of those people men often feel the most isolated because our sort of cultural norms and our gender norms in the society make it seem such that like it's something that women do so if you're a man and you're finding yourself in this role it's even more taboo so to speak to like kind of. Be open about it or if you're having a hard time ask for help so that was a really like incredible and important like representation and the study that we were sharing at Sundance actually saw that in the key episodes that we looked at where care was a dominant theme of these four to five episodes every one of them spiked the conversation on social media about the top of caregiving but that episode in particular that really dove into Miguel. Yeah a drove almost six times more conversation online yeah so pretty incredible it's wild to think of the impact right yeah but it's like the I feel like our writers are especially so nuanced and so sort of like targeted in terms of like ex like they they know what they're doing yeah and they do their research and it's like I think everything is handled with kid gloves it's handled very I don't know responsibly I don't know how is to say that we're talking about. We've talked about it a lot on the show about how these subjects are hard they're not that hard to talk about it's just hard to find the right context or time to talk about them so a lot of people in there when caregiving is their reality and they're and they're on all the time when are they going to who are they going to talk to about it when are they going to talk about it when when is a when is a right moment a right time to bring it up in social conversation and the show actually gave that context and it's so fascinating to me because social media at this point we've we've analyzed how how it can detract we've analyzed how we can harm we've analyzed how it dictated it can be we've analyzed all these things but it can also provide this opportunity yeah for people to connect yeah yeah when something like this comes into the zeitgeist that's the original intent right you know no that's actually exactly what they all told us it was about right connection right right and I think in this case it's definitely it's definitely is true and the other you know very important part of it though is that there was a the story itself the show itself was that like catalyst that like prompted people to have an opportunity to like reflect on this and engage with each other about something that's been you know very much a part of their lives but culturally in this country we've been sort of conditioned to overlook it as as like an issue right like it's just something that we do it's part of your family responsibility or it's part of your you know just kind of the fabric of life that is happening at home and so all of those things combined kind of tell us or signal to us collectively that it's it's not really like anything that we need to think about or worry about but in fact most of those 130 million people out there having a really hard time and managing it all and so to prompt conversation and to prompt awareness that this is not something that you or I or any of us are going through just by ourselves and in fact it's affecting a lot of people helps us start to see that this is maybe actually more of a social challenge yeah that we need to think about it's a priority in our lives that we could actually you know support butter and and have different like resources this up for a man this is something that's not just like a job to you I was reading your bio you got skin in the game you want to talk a little bit about your what led you to to this yeah what's funny eyes reflecting on this on my way over I came into this role having been a fan of this is asked for five years and I was so excited to join the team and to see that this this particular final season was like really diving deep into the topic it had become personal to me and In 2019, I became a mom, and at the time I was working, I was working inside entertainment, I'm a reformed creative executive, where I always wanted to work on storytelling and champion writers and projects that were helping us to actually see each other in new ways. I think that the power of entertainment, the power of TV, the power of film, I'm a girl from a super small town, the middle of this country, and stories have always made me more curious and excited about learning about the world. I've approached my entire career, really believing that story brings us together, if we allow it. But I became a mom, I'm sorry, this is a roundabout answer, but I became a mom in 2019. Right at the time we were starting to hear about the COVID-19 pandemic, I came back from my leave with my son the same day that everything in LA and most of the country sort of shut down for good. March 19th, March 13th, 2020, March 13th, 2020. We get the news that nobody's going back to the office for two weeks or two years. I also had my five-month-old baby assessed for developmental progress, and he was diagnosed with global developmental delay. And so right when everything was shutting down, I also had to start figuring out how to get him supportive services to help him and his motor skills and his cognitive development and his speech, well eventually speech. So it became really personal to me in that way, where I was not just a mom, which is a whole caregiving journey of itself, but it was a mom to a kid who needed additional needs. And those needs were not actually readily available during a pandemic shutdown. Yeah. Child care, I continue to work in full time, and I came around to you wanting to put him in daycare when the time felt safe right about a year later, only to find out that COVID-19 decimated the childcare industry. It's already like thin, but it was really just like devastating for that industry in LA in particular, but across the country. And so I did not have any childcare until he was almost 20 months old. Well, working full time, the whole time. So it was really, yeah, it became extremely personal. And I always say like I kind of ran right into my like care cliff very unexpectedly. Like most people do, we don't talk about it and we don't prepare for it. We don't think it's going to affect us in any measurable way until it's the reality. Yeah. So I was so lucky to kind of start putting myself out there and talking to friends. Someone told me about carrying across generations who was looking for somebody who had entertainment storytelling experience to come and join the team to kind of be a bridge. So right now, my job is really working within the realm of storytelling to help us shift the way that we relate to you think about, see and value the role of care in all of our lives. So somehow, after all of that experience, I found like sort of the perfect place to bring it all together, the melding of all the world. After that was us, after the short break. One thing that this is us did really well. Well, it did many things really well. Let me just say so. What? 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And oftentimes, I feel as if my man is pouring from an empty cup and is, like, on the brink. And so I'm just curious from your own personal experience, like, the best practices, like, how to take care of yourself as you are taking care of others. Yeah, that's so important and so challenging. I don't know if I'm any kind of expert at this, but it's certainly something that I realized in coming into this work. We think a lot about our storytelling in terms of representation, but I think storytelling in terms of, like, our interactions and the norms that we have as a culture. We're not a culture that prides ourselves on asking for help or admitting we need it in the first place. I think that might be the first step, honestly, is when you find yourself at that place where you are pouring from an empty cup or you're just overstretched understanding that it's okay to tap out and you're not messing up by doing that, like, you can't actually, I mean, I think this is true of a parent, too, right? Sure. Do we all have kids? We do indeed, yeah. We all have kids, so you know that they're very demanding as well, and so for one of the first things that people told me in becoming a mom is like, make sure you also, like, take care of yourself rest when they rest all of that. Yeah. Sure. There's a lot more than that. That's a lot of advice, but I think just to go back to, like, we need to, like, actually remove this stigma that it's shameful to need other people, right? Yeah. We all need other people. um it's it caretakes a village it's amazing that you have that village and it's amazing that actually the show modeled what it can look like to have a village not just a family but with also professional workers in the medicine um that that is something that more people need and we would love to support people getting more of that so um but i think just recognizing what you need in asking for it and allowing people in to help when when you can um is a huge step so yeah on a macro level what are some examples of caregiving that people don't realize or caregiving you know what i mean like i i think you so many takeaways from your worker that is that care can look so many different ways and just curious to like expand upon that yeah and actually um coming from like storytelling and my work as an entertainment executive i was always like thinking about what are the stories that we're not telling what's the white shirt stuff that like that that feels like what audiences are always gravitating to like you know so when i came into this work i actually approached it in the same way like what are we actually seeing and like what are all these experiences people are having that aren't showing up honestly anyone managing to balance work or try to balance work and care responsibilities um or care needs at all like we're not seeing that a lot in our culture um we don't recognize things like shopping for somebody for their groceries or picking up their medications um not always thinking about that as caregiving um we're not thinking about things like um helping uh people with their technology or their financial management as care or helping to pay for services as a form of care right yeah so a lot of people especially living on Los Angeles a lot of people have moved here from other parts of the country and met a lot of people in the same year yeah other people in the industry who are kind of like well i'm not really a caregiver because um i just send money back home to help my brother do this right and that is also care so you know just understanding that we all have a different way that we're contributing to it yeah is important too are there other pieces of media that you can provide as examples that you think has done an excellent job of portraying caregiving and maybe examples of caregiving that aren't often depicted in media so i don't mean to make this the sterling show but yeah american fiction was another um film that we actually collaborated with oh yeah because the one thing that doesn't come up very often is the challenge people face of 14 care whether that is um for you know facility-based care or the help of professional caregivers in the home or even a 14 child care um we really wanted to like lift up the fact that the story did address that um and overall i thought that was just such a wonderful example of um it's a great thing again the like more nuanced approach to how the family is like interacting and planning and coming together and trying to kind of figure out this like sort of sudden um it's it's funny because like that's not what that movie was marketed about right right right it's about a lot of things but it is part of that driver underneath the kind of big absurd um sort of thing that that is the like novel that he's writing is all to pay for the care sure yeah yeah but that's but that's sort of subtle like underlying part of the story is also what like that nuances what makes it exactly so interesting because you're not you never want to hit people over the head you know yeah absolutely um so obviously this is on my mind because we're sitting here but there are many and in fact i've been lucky to be an executive producer on a forthcoming film um that is called um take me home it just premiered at Sundance this year okay Liz Sargent the filmmaker was on that panel that you saw Chris so coming full circle again yeah to that moment um it's really incredible to see the response to this it's um the story it's fictional but it's largely inspired by sort of the realities of their family um her parents adopted a number of kids um many of whom had disabilities and so this uh this story is centered on a disabled woman in her 30s who's also a caregiver to her aging parents um and then when some sort of difficult things strike the question comes up like what is her future gonna be and who gets to decide that and so it's all about her kind of like figuring out the next phase of her life um and it's funny and heartbreaking and joyful and you know um really real at an alternating times but we have gotten such an incredible response and it will be coming to theaters this fall so yeah i it's just like those kinds of things like there are more and more stories like where people are bringing their own lived experiences and perspectives and like just like weaving them in in a way that feels really organic and um authentic and i think that really resonates with viewers yeah you actually created a tool for storytellers yeah who want to talk about this in an enlightened or well educated uh uh fashion and i was realizing that even now even outside of of being a storyteller this is valuable information for anyone to have as far as understanding what caregivers go through or what is involved in caregiving can you talk about that tool yeah absolutely and i think it goes back to your question Andy about like how do we understand like what are some things that we're not thinking about it's called the care inclusion playbook it was designed um initially with screenwriters and other entertainment and creative storytellers in mind but we are actually finding it to have application outside of of that space so caring across generations was founded in 2011 to really address the the sort of systemic um sort of gaps in care in this country and we do that by bringing people together across their diverse experiences with caring for older adults disabled people um needing paid leave becoming parents or providing professional care work so we kind of build that community um we transform cultural norms um and representation as we've been speaking about and then we also advocate for policy solutions and so i say that to say that we've actually ever since the beginning of the organization have run a program where we um train caregivers in their own community to become leaders and advocates in their own communities and year after year we turn out cohorts of what we call our care fellows and um this is a space where we're hearing from people about what's going on in their lives in addition to you know other focus groups and types of gatherings that we've hosted over the past 15 years so from all of these people from these these events we know what's going on in people's lives people write to us all the time about like what they're seeing in the culture what they're not seeing in the culture and so across all of that we've analyzed what is missing and so the care inclusion playbook is kind of the answer to that like here's what is missing right these are these are not real people's stories but they're a magnum nations of a common themes that we're hearing from all the time for the past 15 years and what are some examples of the glaring gaps yeah so i think um i arranged it you know kind of through different storytelling elements so different types of characters different types of challenges different types of um stakes and also i think world building which i'll come back to but we're not thinking oftentimes about siblings or children who are caregivers right we we see a lot of adult children who are caring for aging parents obviously that's showed up in this show yeah but one thing that also showed up in this show are parent caregivers um parents have disabled uh children or children with additional needs sure uh we don't see a lot of um caregivers of color to be honest like family caregivers of color and we don't see a lot of professional care workers on tv so these are different types of characters and profiles that we could actually elevate more in our culture and and through the kind of work that we do in media and you know storytelling and beyond um challenges uh a couple of things i already mentioned um challenges of 14 care um i just read a statistic i'm not gonna get the exact number right but it's it's absurd actually the percentage of an annual average family income that child care takes right now it's it's it's like 50 percent or something yeah it's crazy but uh there are challenges such as not being able to find care and many many people who actually qualify for state-based support can't get it because there aren't enough people providing it um the waiting lists are enormous for in-home care workers or home and community-based services yeah um it's getting worse yeah um due to federal cuts to Medicaid and um yeah so these are some of the things that we just we don't really think about but i also think that especially when it comes to creativity and art and um when we are able to kind of craft our fictional worlds we we have the opportunity to model different opportunities different worlds different solutions right um and one of the things i i think we talked about when we filmed with you um and christian john at the end of the run was the the episode where rebecca sits down and has her family sit down and say let's talk about how this is going to go old yeah um most people have not had a conversation about their future or their end of life care planning and we can use story to actually make that a little bit more normal if people are not all yeah it doesn't have to be so revolutionary like you can yeah it can just be that kind of you know element i remember the show the show actually sparked in in our in for rachel and and myself that conversation on end of end of life wishes. We got all of that, all of those documents in place. We put people in place, we told them our plans, we told them what we wanted, and then all of our friends started doing the same, and we all started compiling. We had like a full file with like six or seven people's final wishes. If this were to happen, we want this. If both of us go, the children need to go, and it was, again, it was the show's context that opened these conversations for us, but mortality and the end of life discussions are hard to have at any point, especially with strangers. The unfolding that you saw on social media when the show came out, what is the follow-up, what is the support that follows that conversation? That's a good question. We put together some resources, so HFC put the full-film conversation that we did on their websites. It's that we are hfc.org/thisasus. You can watch the video that we made, but also underneath that, we created a few resources for how to start that conversation, actually, that kind of conversation. We can link to all those. We did see that people looked to places that could help them with different resources, or ask people to help guide them through some of that, or to reach out and ask for help generally speaking. I think that when people, I don't know this, that actually there are resources out there, and so stories can help make sure that that is known as well. One example of that, I think, is we don't actually see a lot of TV representation of what policies or types of either workplace or state-based policies exist, and people don't know what to ask for. Obviously, we know about paid leave, but we may not know that there's caregiver paid leave. It's worth asking in your workplace if you need to take time to care for a loved one or receive care for yourself. We don't know that there are programs like in California, it's the in-home supportive services where a family member can actually get paid to provide care. It's just about how do we find ways to also like let people know there is that they're there. Never mind if there's any underlying shame around asking for help, but having no idea who to ask, or what to ask, or where to look. It all just seems so daunting anyways, especially when if you are a caregiver in this position, it's essentially, if you looked around at society, that it's just expected of you to just do it and carry on. Without complaint. We have several parents in our circle who have children who have needed additional support in school and like going through L.A. U.S.D. to get these kids the advocacy and the support that they need just in day-to-day schooling with such a minefield of bureaucracy and retap and all these things. So now we have these couple two moms who like know everything you need to do, all the ins and outs and they've become almost consultants for not just friends in our, but like now friends of friends are hearing and friends of friends of friends and they're getting phone calls, but it becomes a part-time job for them. It's statistically a part-time job. Yeah, to never mind be a caregiver for their child, but now all of these other parents who need the same help who don't know what to do are coming to them for support, and now they're caregiving all these network of parents. It's harrowing to watch. Yeah, it's really frustrating how complicated and sort of, I don't know, obtuse the system is, right? I was going to say that I don't think, if I didn't have a friend whose son was diagnosed as neurodivergent a few years before my son had his developmental delayed. I wouldn't have known what resources were out there and what I should have done next, right? And we were lucky that I was able to get him set up with all of the different therapies, even though then I had to fit in six hours of therapy a week on top of my full-time job, right? Right. So yeah, it's never mind to and from. Yeah, to and from and then the paperwork and all of the ongoing administration, like it's, I think the I think the statistic is that most family caregivers spend somewhere around 20 to 24 hours a week on caregiving responsibilities, unpaid, unpaid. Yeah. Yeah. There's a tangential sort of question and you were talking about changing cultural norms with regards to caregiving and whatnot. I'm curious like, what do we know about norms in this country, vis-a-vis other countries or other cultures? Like, are there different countries that have different ways of practicing care that like the West does differently? Or do you even know any differences between those things? Yeah. We sort of made cultural strategy a core part of caring across generations from the very beginning, even from the inception of the organization and the theory of change, which is we actually looked at how we understand and relate to care, broadly speaking, as a culture in the US, and water those barriers that are sort of holding us back. And the things that we identified and then thus the things that we are sort of seeking to change have to do with gender norms. Assumptions about whether or not care labor is skilled or valuable. Assumptions around, well, really ideas that we have about aging. We're a very youth obsessed country. We're scared to age. Many other cultures have a different relationship to aging. We are uncomfortable with disability. It's sort of taboo and stigmatized. Much more so than other places. I don't actually know, like, if I could answer that directly, but I think we do know that we have hang-ups or on disability in this country for sure. I'm sure other countries do too, but there are cultures where we understand that that sort of have a different understanding of the value of people and of all different types of people. Whereas in this country, it kind of all comes down to productivity and we're able to contribute to the economy. So if you think about people who have aged out of the traditional workforce, if you think about disabled people who may not be able for different reasons to have a conventional 40-hour week job, we don't value people in the same way. And then it all kind of also comes back to this individualistic mindset. We are a country of individualism and individual heroes and bootstraps and all of that. So one reason that we think about care is something that we are supposed to handle on our own is that we're sort of told from birth essentially that the way that you make it is that you work really hard and you earn your way and then if you didn't make enough money or whatever and have the right things in place to provide the right kind of care to your kids or to your parents or to whoever else in your life, that was not on you. So we are kind of moving using storytelling, creating conversation, and really hoping to prompt new norms that kind of shift us toward thinking about this is really, you know, as you said at the top, like it's something that's going to affect all of us at some point, it past, present, or future, right? We all have a care connection and it's actually what makes it possible for us to participate in our world, right? If we didn't have parents that raised us, if we don't have people to take care of our kids, if our disabled loved ones and parents, aging parents didn't have care, like our society actually wouldn't function. So like we've just invisibleized it. So now we're we're we're moving channels invisible to make it visible, right? And then, you know, actually encouraging people to celebrate what you do as a caregiver, how you're part of this sort of care economy and see it as a strength, right? It's the thing that keeps us connected. It's that it's it actually is like fundamentally what makes us human is that we care for each other, right? We wouldn't have survived as a species if we didn't do that, right? Right? Absolutely. And it seems it seems it's this invisible thing that we all seem to be working so hard to support, but don't talk about exactly. We spend all of our all of our time. You said 50% of our money on child care, you know what I mean? Like on on this on this thing that we are all experiencing in in one way or another or at least witnessing if we're not experiencing it, we're witnessing it. Yeah. And it can be when you zoom out and look at it, it can, it makes sense to me why no one wants to talk about it. Because it seems like too big an idea to talk about. It seems so huge and so overwhelming that where do you even start? And so all of these tools that you've created and these storylines that these writers take on, you know, to tell is like is a good place to start? Yeah, absolutely. us after these words from our sponsors. - I wanna tell you about these baskets and not the products I've been using. Now what I love most about these products is that they work whatever length my hair or beard is. When my hair is long, it keeps my curls well defined. It's great at making my texture soft and manageable. 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Beyond seeing it represented on screen 'cause we understand the immense value that seeing these different kinds of experiences have, but like, what else can we do? In terms of not to get political, but from a policy perspective. - Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing anybody can do that I always say is you can just talk about it in your life. - In your life. - In your friends, your family. - Yeah, exactly. Talk about it and don't be ashamed about it and just honor it, right? And talk about the challenges. That said, carrying across generations this year is anchoring what we're calling a deep listening research project where we're trying to understand what families in this country, what people in this country who have care responsibilities and needs at any point in their lives, which really is all of us. What is it that we're actually going through and what is it that we actually need? It's called the One Million Care Conversations Initiative because the goal is to actually hear from a million people across all walks of life, all backgrounds, all parts of the country, and really collect those responses, not just in terms of like share your story with us, but we want you to tell us what you're going through and what you need. So those needs can be then analyzed and assessed and converted into a real like solution for a new system, right? Something that we can propose at the policy level. - Great. - That people can feel like actually is responsive to what they need in their life and believe in so that it has sort of built in by and in support from the jump, right? It's a solution that is really of the people for all of us. - And how can people partake in that particular study? I don't know if we can put it up, but we do have a QR code that if you're watching this, you can scan the QR code. It'll take you directly to the survey. Takes about five minutes to fill it out. - Okay. - There we go. - There we go. - Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you. - It's part of the million everybody. Join the conversation. If you don't as see this on your screen, you can also text the word Convo, C-O-N-V-O to Carine, C-A-R-I-N-G. So text Convo to Carine, or the website is careconversations.com. - Great. - And to piggyback on just more of the conversation of why you're here, I'm curious like, what does it look like when you first are going into sort of consult on a project? Like, what does that look like? Exactly, like, what do you come armed with? What do you take away? What are you hoping for? Like, what is your sort of presentation look like? - Good question. - That's a great question. Let me think about this for a second. Now, I think I really always start by trying to understand what is the project? What is the story? - Sure. - What are they going for? I think there's a sort of worry or an anxiety that having experts are a nonprofit or an advocacy organization come in. They're going to like lecture you and tell you they've done everything wrong. And we really don't believe that. We all we really are seeking to do is to help people tell the best, most authentic and most nuanced story as possible that avoid certain pitfalls or things that kind of keep us reinforcing the ideas that I mentioned earlier that are kind of those cultural ideas and mindsets that have held us back. So how do we, if it's a story around disability care, what are some of the more problematic things that have been repeated? And how do we just make sure we avoid those while also infusing more authenticity and more specificity and nuance into these portrayals? - Is it ever some example? - Let me think about an example. Yes, give me one second, I think. There was something from season six because I'm sure the show as well as these stories were told, there were maybe some pitfalls in our storytelling or maybe examples of Miguel needing to ask for help or there are other scenes from season six that helped. - But he ultimately did follow that story. - We kind of, the kids sort of ultimately were like, "Hey, man, we're here for you." You're saying, "You've done your job." - Right. And I'm saying, when I say name a pitfall, I'm not saying name a show. I'm just saying an example of some-- - You're not setting me up for a job. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. - You don't want to get in trouble. I can definitely give you an example of pitfalls. But before I do, I do want to acknowledge that the reason that we wanted to work with the Norman Lear Center on the research project that we did is that their program, the Hollywood Health and Society program, actually did dozens upon dozens of consultations with your writers room. - Yes, right. - So they did an incredible job. And honestly, I don't know that we had any notes in terms of the representation on the show. And so just to credit to the effort, it took to actually seek out that guidance. - So let me ask this then. What were the writers, if you know, what were they most surprised to learn about telling these stories that maybe they didn't understand? Or am I asking that right? Like as the writers are researching these ideas, there must have been revelations to them that they were unaware of. - I wish I was a writer and you could answer that question. - No, I didn't know if there were any examples. - But I'm trying to think back to the conversation that we had, it might come to me, but I know KJ Steinberg was one of the incredible writers. - Yes, he is. - Joined the conversation to round table that we did that was filmed. And I remember, one of the things was really just recognizing that everybody had a connection point. Like, I think that was just, it always is, right? Like in any space, people start to recognize that they have their own like connection points that they didn't really seek out, right? A pitfall is one thing that comes up with disabled characters and older characters is the assumption that if you're experiencing disability, cognitive decline, you might have an intellectual disability, you're less in charge of your own destiny. And reinforcing this idea that, okay, this is happening to you, so we must take control. It diminishes that person's agency, that actually has real world ramifications that reinforces in our minds that if somebody is growing older, then maybe we don't need to take them as seriously, right? And so therefore, we don't need to support them. So those are the types of things that we try to help people look for in their storytelling. And in that process of consultation, I like to listen. And then I like to kind of bring some of these common pitfalls, common themes. And also commonalities that we're hearing about people about what they would like to see more of based on their lived experiences and help creators find those opportunities to expand that. Man, like an anecdote of sorts, like one of the main things that, so my mom has ALS. And there was a point in time while we were shooting the show. And I remember going into the writers room saying like, "I don't know which of my moms will pass away first between my mom versus my TV mom." And a lot of strange parallels were happening between Randall and myself and the character, like fights with siblings over the best way to take care of mom, who's how honoring wishes. And so now with my mom, who hasn't been able to speak since October of 2018. It was diagnosed April of 2018 and then she couldn't really speak after that. So they have computer programs that you should get used with to move her eyes to sort of like right words typewriter type of thing. But she said that was too exhausting. So we have a reading chart that we use. And this idea that my brother and I have always come to odds at is like honoring her wishes. Not what we think is best for her, like she still has her mind is still present, right? And if it takes us a little bit longer to get the information, then it takes us a little bit longer for making sure at each step of the journey, are we honoring what she wants? It's very, very powerful. And just when you said that, it made me think of that particular thing in my life. I think that's just one thing that I think it's really important to remember that we're all human all the way through our lives and we all have dignity and we all have the right to have a say in how our lives go and unfold. Thank you so much for coming and talking to us about this. We can link to all of these things. If you're watching, you can see the QR code, but we'll link to these in the bio on wherever you get your podcasts. So people will be able to connect with you and what you're working on. Thank you so much for having me. This has been so fun and very special to come full circle. This was one of the first things I got to work on when I joined carrying across generations. So having this conversation is really special. Right. Thank you so much. We want to close it out. We could have Lydia do it. But should she say the name of the podcast or the name of this episode of the podcast? How about just this episode chat with us? To qualify through Medicaid or whatnot, it was a situation where they were saying she had too much money and she had no income because she was a homeowner. You have to deplete your assets before you can like qualify for like a certain thing. That's like, what's the point? I have to give you my heart. I know. We're going through that with my father-in-law as well. Are you really? Yeah, it's just like to qualify for otherwise you're paying out of pocket. And when you move to another facility that requires more care, it's like it's it's unconscionable how you know what the expense is. And it's like again, we are incredibly lucky to be in a certain position to be able to afford that. But it's like, what is the world at large meant to do? And that's like the bigger question that we as a society have to grapple with. And why I was asking specifically about, you know, when she answered that there, this is the first step is like, let's collect all of these conversations. And let's deduce like, what is the biggest takeaway? What are the actual specific care needs that we need? And then we can start to sort of frame it through, you know, from a policy perspective of how we then, you know, address that. I mean, it is coming for all of us. Other countries. It already is. You know, you're like, if a woman has a baby, right, I know a friend of mine who took 12, six to 12 months of paternity leave paid, who was living in Switzerland at the time. I was like, that's that's a thing. And definitely not in this country. You know what I'm saying? He was able to take like a mental health breaks. And it's like, if, if people are what make a place, right? And as, as Lydia was saying, not just like their ability to contribute to the GDP, but just people, just people in and of themselves. There's a way that we can sort of like, emphasize that through policy, what you're talking about. Listen, I, I feel like by default, I am a capitalist, but I don't think I'm so rugged a capitalist that like I have, like it's capitalism above humanity. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I totally agree with you. It is such a nuanced conversation. And it's really like, I just, I stand in awe of caregivers in general of all stripes, whatever that caregiving looks like in your life. And what, what humans like Lydia do, because it is a lot, it is a heavy burden up a hill. You're pushing a rock up a hill to try to tell these stories to, to take in all of this information. And we're all daunted by it. We are daunted never never mind a solution to simply the amount of work it takes to start a conversation. Yeah. Correct. It's unfathomable, which is why it hasn't been started, right, which is why it was invisible, which is why, you know, literally, literally her next step is to have a million conversations. Because that's where we are in the stage of, of being able to, to support caregivers on that level. Like I know for my brother, who I was, who's really just for who manages the nurse practitioners and sort of oversees their coming and going and schedules whatnot. But one thing that I try to do for him is to just pick up the phone when he calls, because he is, he's a lot like Randall and sometimes like he can sort of like great with like what's going on in his world. But, but from a place of love, like he's managing a lot. And sometimes he just needs to like, it's to be heard. Yeah, somebody needs to hear it. Somebody's got to hear like, this is what I'm going through. And I saw, I say this, if you ever see this, he doesn't much podcast, but Armand, I do try to pick up the phone, because I know sometimes you just got to get that shit out. It's a good reminder for all of us to be that sounding board for anybody in our life that might need the same. Yeah, which is why these conversations are important. So I'm going to, I'm going to take the survey. If you're listening, get this, find this QR code through our links. Yeah, take this survey so that we can keep this conversation going. It's interesting because I think one thing that she may be deflected on that I have heard in terms of a criticism of our show is just that. You know, the Pearson's obviously because of Kevin had the ability to afford this in-home care for Rebecca. Sure. And that, that is not the picture of most experiences across this country. So I'm sure that, I mean, again, it made sense within the fabric of our show considering that there was a child who had an incredible job who was able to afford this kind of care. We've been a whole different show if he had withheld that sort of like that. Well, mom, you're on your own. You're Miguel, just figure it out yourselves. So I'm sure that that's something that would be interesting to see in other forms of media. And I'm sure all of us in, you know, when we're fortunate enough to wear the producer hats, like these are the kinds of things that and lenses by which I like to see certain projects through as well of like making sure that we're considering all of these different angles. And one appropriate being able to lift up stories like this that feel unheard for the most part. Agreed. Agreed. Carrying across conversations, one million care conversations. Yeah, there's a QR code and she said you can also text the word "convo" to "caring" to "caring". Yep. C-A-R-I-N-G. Can you text the word "caring"? No, "convo". No, but it's like-- Oh, I guess you would text that on. Well, you know what? Let me do it and see what happens. Hold on one second. I'm curious to see. So if I go to my text messages, I type "caring" up there and I type the word "convo". Yeah, tell me what happens. Does it say what are you doing? Or does something go through? My phone just starts smoking. I received a response from another number that gives me the link to the survey. Wow, that's cool. So I will click on that link. Yeah, take that survey. Take that survey, man. Great conversation. Great chat. Thanks, Salidia Story. She already said the end of it. Can we play it? Do I say it again? Do a remix of it. Chat chat chat chat chat chat chat with us. Zoom. That was us, his film, that rabbit-grin studios and producer by Rabid Green Productions, music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith.