84: Charles Ryu | Confessions of a North Korean Escape Artist Part One

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Check out Cup of Justice, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DeFilippo. Today, we're talking with Charles Rue. This is an incredible story. He escaped by himself from North Korea twice. And this is a show I thought would take an hour. I ended up going for three, which is why it's a two-part episode. Those of you who don't know much about North Korea, this is a place where you can get sent to a labor camp for folding a newspaper incorrectly or for watching a movie that wasn't made by the government. I mean, they can execute you for this stuff. Charles is a great storyteller. And what strikes me here is how he stayed strong through this whole ordeal. He didn't give into resentment, nor did he give up in a situation that would have pretty much given anyone a license to do that. The story of Charles Escape is absolutely incredible. There's so much in here that's both shocking, inspiring, even emotional that I really think you'll enjoy hearing this episode as much as we enjoyed recording it. And don't forget, we have worksheets for today's episode, so you can make sure you solidify your understanding of all the key takeaways here from Charles. That link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. All right, here's Charles Rue. So you just had a very American experience? Yeah, I did. I'm in a shack, you know? It's been a surprise, you know? But I've never expected to meet a really famous celebrity basketball player, but it's been a really good experience. Yeah, I couldn't close my jaws like. Yeah. I know what I was saying. Did you know who shack was when you were in North Korea? I didn't know who shack was when I was in North Korea, but I knew who was James Bond. Yeah, really? When I was in North Korea, I was like a huge fan of Hollywood films, you know, like the "The War of Seven" action movies. You know, actually, I watched Will Smith, like the "Bet Boys 1" when I was in North Korea. Really? Is that popular in North Korea? Bad boys? It is super popular, like among like millennials, you know? Among this fellow North Koreans friends that I had. Yeah, it's really popular. And you just became an American citizen? Yeah, yeah, I just became like a citizen like a couple of days ago. Wow. My like a certificate, you know, I am feels great. Now I'm a fellow American citizen. That's crazy congratulations. First of all, thank you. Coming from North Korea being an America, being an American citizen, does it feel different? I mean, like, you know, I've been hiding before I come to United States. You know, I was living under the shadow for a while. So, having like my own identity, I was like, defined as something, you know, like, oh, he's like, oh, he's American, you know? I mean, like, he's North Korean. I mean, like, you know, I really want to have that privilege. Now I got my citizenship finally. I feel like a lot like responsible, you know, in a way, because like, now I got to pay tax. Now you can cheat and avoid taxes like every other American. You can't, now you have to, and you can't just slide by. Right. You've got to figure out creative ways to not get that. Well, to understand what that means, I think we have to go back a little bit to understand. Yeah, yeah, I mean, now, first of all, thank you so much for having me here today. Yeah. Where were you born? I mean, I was born in North Korea in October 1, 1994 under Chinese father and the North Korean mother. Wait, I'm already, how did that happen? Where did the Chinese guy come from? Yeah, yeah, I mean from China, but more, more explicitly. Yeah. How? So, my grandfather was a Chinese soldier, like between like North and South, like, when there was a war. Yeah. So, my grandfather came out to North Korea to fight off like, I guess, Americans. Sure. And then he never returned to China after the war. So, he came for the, what we call the Korean War? Korean War. He came for the war, stayed for the, yeah, the women. Yeah, no, no. He was a woman, right? How romantic, right? I mean, but one thing that I'm sure was like, my grandfather didn't speak any Korean. My grandmother didn't speak any Chinese, but somehow they managed to, you know, live, you know, and how that works. I mean, right, John? Just kidding. Yeah, and then my grandfather stayed after the war. And then, like, Kim Yo-sung gave out like special privilege to Chinese soldiers that didn't live to China. And like, saying, okay, so once you are gonna be here, we're gonna give you everything, right? Privilege to like, stay here or whenever we want to go back, just we can just leave, right? As a reward for fighting. Right, right, right. And then my grandfather stayed and then he had my father. And then my father was a Chinese. He wasn't a Chinese at first, right? So, he was a multi-cruelian until he turned like 30 or something. He got his passport much later. At the time, when my father met my mother, he already had a family. In China. I'm sorry. Yeah, in North Korea. He had a passport at the time when he met my mother. He was already married. He had a four kids. Oh, wow. Yeah, and then basically, I was just like a born out of well-uck. Got it. And then when I turned five, like, my father abandoned me and my mom, and he left to China, bringing all his kids, except me. Oh, man. Were you aware of everything that was going on back then? I had no idea. You just knew that he left. Yeah, I just knew that, like, oh, he's going to return someday, right? And then when I was like seven, I remember my mom telling me, like, okay, you don't tell anybody your dad is Chinese, right? If anybody asks, tell them your dad passed away with a car accident. Okay. In the car accident. I was like, okay, I'm like, I'm okay. I don't know anything. Did you have a car? We didn't have any cars, but like, just car accident, you know? Like, because like, not to create like, you rarely find cars. So it seems like a bad excuse if there's not that many cars. Yeah. How many cars are there? I guess you say that and people don't ask questions. Yeah. But what was the idea behind that? Why did she want you to lie? Because like, she didn't want it. People asking questions, right? The reason behind it is that, at the time, like, my father was living with my family, like, he divorced his wife because of my mom, and they were still living together. And then when I was five, he borrowed like, bunch of money from the neighbors using our name, and he bought opium. And then so his idea was, okay, so opium in North Korea is really cheap, because we grow them, right? But in China, it's illegal, but expensive, because nobody has it. So the idea behind that was, I can just do this once. If I sell it in China, make money, it's gonna be rich, you know? It's gonna be made in everything. Yeah. Yeah, it never's back. So he went to China. Like, my mom told me before she died. Like, oh, yeah, my father was like, oh, I'll be back in the next six months. And then he left. After six months, we didn't hear anything back from my father. And then that collector's started coming to her house. Oh, man. Yeah, and then like, being the crap out of my mom. Oh, so this is like black market? Yeah, black market. This is a big deal. Yeah, it's really big. What is in North Korean debt collector, like, who is that? Like a mafia guy, kind of? No, it's not mafia guys. It's just a neighbors. You know, neighbors, like, that collector's means like, like, neighbors, like husband, right? They're like, wife, husbands, you know, like, husbands always come, right? So it's the people he borrowed money from? Yeah. So they came to her house. You know, they started taking our things, you know, such as like dishes, you know, clothings and, like, a cooking pot, rice pot. And at the end, like, they took our house. They just kicked you guys out. Yeah, like, I got a lot of here, you know? And then we lost everything. And then we went to my grandmother's house when I was seven. And that's when my mom told me, so if anybody asks, tell them your dad is died in the car accident. And then, you know, I seriously, like, grew up, like, without, I have no memories of my dad, you know, because I was such a young, you know, five years old. I don't remember anything about my father. And like, because over the time, like, I was keeping hearing my dad is dead, you know, like, he's, I barely heard of him. But yeah, and then I was living at my grandmother from age seven to 11. And my mom is always traveling around the world, around the country, to find my dad, because like, he's out there somewhere, you know, I know it. Was your grandmother in the same city? Yeah, some cities, my father. So you, within the same city, you move to your grandmother's house, but your mom started going around the country. Uh-huh. Is that doable? Can people move around the country just to look for somebody? Actually, you can't do that, because you have to have, like, a document, in order to. Yeah, special paths. But during like, only two thousands, that was kind of easier, because a lot of people, like, that was like, after great famine. Approximately 300,000 to one million people were stuck to death in North Korea. Uh-huh. But during that time, like, the traveling is kind of like, a lot easier than nowadays. Interesting. Yeah, nowadays, like, you have to have a travel document, you know, but I'm not saying that it was like, really easy. You can just get on a train. It's not like that, but you just have to get a travel document, you know, like passport, not a passport, but like, uh, like a visa, right? To move around, so you need documents to move around, but it's easier back then, because. Yeah, easier back then to get. Because a million people around, million people starve to death, so. Right. The people who are enforcing move, who are busy with other things. Right, right, right, exactly. Well, okay. So she's off. Yeah, she's off. I don't know where she's at. And then I'm, you know, going to school in North Korea, when I, I only enrolled in a elementary school when I was like, And I remember going to school with like different pair of shoes, you know, one side or a winter winter shoes, one side or a summer like a rain boots. So you had one different shoe on each foot? Yeah, because I was so poor. I got like nothing. Yeah, and then I'm going to school. I'm learning about Kim Jong-il's history, you know, like math, like North Korean language, and arts music, you know, like PE, you know. And then my mom comes back when I was nine years old. So she's been gone for two years? Yeah, she's been gone for two years, but she comes back completely restable. She's like paralyzed. Oh, she can't walk or anything? I mean, she could walk, but she was barely alive. Why? I don't know, because like she's just been starving, stressed, you know, and. She's a different person. Yeah, she was a completely different person, and then she had a heart trouble. So she couldn't breathe that well. But yeah, she comes back when I was nine and then. Do you remember that day? I do. I do. What was that like? You know, I went to school and I came back and I saw a pair of shoes that was ladies. And my grandmother has like, you know, some shoes too, but like it's not that, you know, fancy looking, but I saw a fancy looking shoes in the dormant. And I was like, "Oh, like I wonder if it's my mom, you know?" And then I stepped in the door and my mom is lying down on the ground, you know, almost like. like dying. And then I couldn't talk to her because she couldn't speak or hear or see. She was completely like paralyzed. Oh, wow. Yeah, and then we had to move her hospital. So we went to hospital, but in North Korea, my hospital and everything is like, it's free, right? That's how the. like, communist. Government. Yeah, the government runs, right? 'Cause it's a socialism. Like the method, right? The function itself is like free, but actually when you want it to get it, it's you have to pay for everything. So you kind of have to bribe people to give you things that you need, is that what you mean? Yeah, I have to kind of bribe out, you know, like bribe in, you know, and you have to buy on your medication and bring it to the hospital so that the doctors can inject to them. Because like North Korea is so poor, they don't have any medical. They don't really have getting medical, like, you know. Care. Yeah, medical care. So it's not really free. It's not really free. Yeah, you have to pay. Okay. Yeah, and so my grand. My mother's, like grandparents, they were really, really rich. So they used to be a famous. My grandfather was a magician. A magician? Yeah. Really? Not magic magician. Oh. Musician. Musician. Oh, I was like, wow. The story is just gonna. Better. But musicians also pretty good. Yeah, so he used to play really famous band in North Korea in Pyongyang for the government, right? He played for the government. Yeah, for the government. That's actually a really privileged position, right? Yeah, and my mom was actually born in Pyongyang. Okay. Yeah. And that my entire family lived in Pyongyang. Like, governments provide like everything for them. That must mean that your mom's family was connected. Connected to the government. Yeah, and then my grandmother, I think like. Maybe, you know, I think like the way that I can speak English so well. I mean, like, catch. Like something really well is because I think I got like my grandmother's spring. Because she spoke three languages. So she spoke Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. Yeah, so she's a trilingual. I think she spoke Russian too, but I can't remember. Interesting. Yeah. But anyway, yeah. So my grandmother has some money, and we used all onto saving my mom. And then about a year, she was doing much better. She could walk, she could talk, she could eat. And then she could like talk to me, you know, like, "Oh, I missed you," you know, and like. Yeah, and then my grandmother ran out of money. So she can't put her in the hospital anymore. So we had to take her back home. That was when I was 10. I completely dropped out of school because I need to nurse my mom, right? Because like, she cannot move that well. So I need to give her a bath. You know, I need to clean her. You know, I need to take out poop and pee. You know, I have to bring food inside. So I was with her 24 hours. In your 10 years old at this time. I was 10 years old. Yeah. You're taking care of your mom. Yeah. And your family now doesn't have money. We don't have any money. And there is no way that we're going to survive this winter. So when I was 10, my mom gets out of the hospital because we don't have any money to treat her. And then we come back home. Like, she seems to be doing really fine. But one day she collapsed. She just like really collapsed on the floor. And then like, she's paralyzed again. And then she was doing like, she would like, wake up unconsciously. You know, and then she was scream. You know, like, I don't know. Because I think like, she had a tumor in her head or something. Oh, maybe. Yeah. And then like she was scream at night. You know, because like her hat really hurts. And then, or so about a year, I had to still take care of her at home. You know, I have to go out. I need to clean her. I try to feed her. You know, I try to do anything like everything. Last about a month, you know, she couldn't eat. Like, she couldn't even like, feel anything. She was just lying down there. And then eventually, 2011, May, she passed away. May 5th, she passed away without living any last words. And so, no, so before she died, like somewhere around like when she was like conscious, she told me like, Charles, if I had a whole like lamb, you know, I think I'm gonna be fine. You know, if I had a whole lamb, I would be just fine. Yeah, if I had a whole lamb, yeah, whole lamb, like I'll be just fine as you are. It means like she's starving, you know, she's really hungry. That's the last thing that I remember about my mom. You're listening to the Jordan Harbanger Show with our guest, Charles Rue. We'll be back right after this. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts, you've just heard, visit JordanHarbanger.com/advertisers. We also have an Alexa skill so you can get inspirational and educational clips from the show in your daily briefing. Go to JordanHarbanger.com/Alexa or search for Jordan Harbanger in the Alexa app. Now back to the show with our guest, Charles Rue. So how did you decide to escape? Because I can imagine that, I mean, this is the place where if you share a foreign movie with your friends, yeah, yeah, you get executed, you know, or you get punished. Yeah, so this isn't a light decision. Yeah, and I'm wondering how you went from being 10 years old to, you know, you're here in the United States. Obviously a lot of things happen. I mean, you're growing up with your grandma. Did she raise you? No, I mean, like, yeah, I went to like school, but when I was 11, she couldn't take care of me anymore. When I was 11 when my mom passed away, but like, she's an old grandma. She was like, where is like 78, you know, almost like eight years old. She couldn't take care of me anymore. So she sent me to my aunt's house. And then I was living there about like a year. And then I wrote a letter to my father every single day, saying like, hey, father, you know, because like my aunt apparently knows like where he is at. Oh, in China. So what happened was like, my father was in China selling drugs. And he sold successfully, but he got backstabbed. So somebody told on him and then he got caught and he threw in the prison for four years. In China? Yeah, in China. But your aunt knew that? Yeah, and she didn't tell your mom. She didn't tell my mom. Do you know why? I don't know why. Okay. Is this your mom's sister? Yeah, it's my mom's like all day's sister. Geez. Yeah. And then when I got to my aunt's house, she was forcing me to write a letter to my father every single day for like 12 months. And then eventually my father wrote a letter's letter back to me, saying nothing like critical, nothing much. She didn't buy mine. So he was just saying thank you so much. Right? But my aunt switched the letter saying if you come to China, will she change the letter? Yeah, change the letter. She physically changed it? Yes, she wrote it. She forged it. Yeah, she forged it. And then she's pretty smart, I think. Oh my god. To get back into Inbalung and write it to the government. Whoa, right? Is some ninja stuff. That's a gutsy move. In North Korea, she forged. Okay, so she changed your father's letter to make it look like he was inviting you. Yeah, inviting. So the North Korean government would give you a visa. Did it work? It worked. Yeah, no kidding. Now she need a money to travel, right? Now she need, because she is everything to get a passport. Is your aunt hoping that all of you guys go to China? Just her. Just her. She was going to leave you behind. Some desperate shit here. Yeah, because like my grandmother had a lot of friends in China. So she's not going to China to look for my father, but she's going to look for her mother's friends in China. Because my grandmother worked with the government. She has a translator between North Korean government and so Chinese government. And then she was going to China to find them, you know, not my father. But she just needed a bridge connection. You know, I was the connection, which is my father in China. But now she doesn't have any money to go to China. So she writes a black male letter to my father saying, if you don't send me this much of money, I'm going to kill your child, sell them to the black market as a meat. Or I'm going to send him to orphanage. Bang. And my father says it. What the heck? You know, my, yeah, what he didn't care before. He didn't care before, but like he's like, I'm alive, you know, but like now like, I'm my life isn't right. And he knows that like, because like I send him like my photos like every single month to my father. I'm writing him for a year, you said. Yeah. What about a year, 12 years? So now he's sort of connected again to where I was. Yeah, connected again about like what I'm doing. How I'm doing. Do you know where he was at this time? He's in China. So how close to the border is he? He's really close to the border. Very close to the border. Yeah, he's living in border. And where is your city you were living in with your aunt? It's right next to the border. the Pyongyang. It's actually Pyongyang. So that's not close to the border. Uh-uh. It's really far. It's really far. Two days train trip. Got it. Yeah. And then my father says it and like, oh, my son is in risk. I need to save him. So he sends two stepbrothers who are like 20 years older than me. They were living in North Korea. I didn't know. This is his other family. Yeah, he is his other family. So he sends like this stepbrother to rescue me from my aunt's house. When I was 13, he comes, he picks me up for my aunt, yeah, my stepbrother. And he brings me to his house. And a year later, when I was 14, I didn't so like that time, like before I escaped to China, that time I was watching like, because my stepbrother was Chinese. And he was bringing a lot of foreign medias, you know, from China to North Korea. He was going back and forth. Yeah, he was going back and forth. He has a passport. So he can move around as much as he wants. Yeah. Whenever he wants to have money. So you lived with them for a year? For a year. Yeah. And then that time, like I watched foreign medias, you know, I'm like, James Bond, you know, 007, Batboy's one, like South Korean dramas, you know, having all those like, like a freedom thoughts, you know, like freedom thoughts. Yeah. Is this the first time you've seen foreign movies? Yeah, that's actually the first time me watching like, I mean, like, I watched a lot of like Soviet Union movies, propaganda movies, you know, Chinese like multi-dong. Yeah, but like Will Smith is a million times cooler than right. So this is new for you. Yeah, this is like completely new for me. What was that like? Like at first, like I didn't believe, you know, like, is this true? Like I'm like, wait, like, how is this possible? You know, like if it's not a setup, you know, like all I've learned about Americans are like with long nose, you know, long chins, like Harry face, you know, looks like a wolf, you know, trying to like, invade North Korea all the time. Because that was what you were taught in school. Yeah, that was what I was taught in school, right? But like watching the friend meet out like, they're so cool, you know, like stopping the back guys, you know, like, you know, getting the money, getting paid, you know, I'm like, what? I was like mind blowing, you know, I wanted to be there. You know, I wanted to like experience that. So what goes through your mind when you see that? Is there a period where you think somebody lied to me or did you think that the movie was lying at the moment? I thought movie was moving. Yeah, it's a movie set, right? But when I was 14, I gave my first opportunity to escape North Korea and go to China to my father, because my father wanted to see me. So my brother buys a broker in North Korea and then the broker buys the guard, the river guard, people smuggler. Yeah, people smuggler. And the plan is for your father to get you to China. Yeah, plan is to get me to China. Because the letter that you're aunt sent him, right? Yeah, but I mean, like, that's why my step brother came in and he saved me from my aunt's house and he took care of me, right? But my father wants to see me now when I was 14. So whose idea was it to escape? My father's idea. Now I was, so I went to China, right? So my step brother buys broker and then my step brother, then the broker buys this security guard and like, okay, what time, you know, what day, what time, you know, like small kids kind of go to China and he's going to come back with money, you know, so don't shoot him. And then I went to Reaper pretending I'm taking a shower, you know, you went to the river. Yeah, I was like, you're just going for a ride. Yeah, yeah, so it's going for a swim. This is the river on the border. Yeah, it's, is it the yellow? Yeah, it's the yellow river. Okay. So you're far, but you have to take a train to get. Yeah, I take a train for like two days. Is that hard to take a train? No, I mean, like my brother bought like, you know, tickets and everything. Okay. You know, so you guys can move somewhat freely to the border. Is this the summertime? Because I would imagine you can go on the winter like, I'm just going for a swim. What are you talking about? It's 20 below. Yeah, it was 2008 June going down the river, you know, I was like, I'm the, I'm bleeding. I'm like, uh-huh, you know, like, uh, I'm just going to swim over here, you know, and I was taking a bath, you know, like, was this the plan? It was the plan. They told you to do this. Yeah, yeah. Are you alone? Yeah, I was alone. Yeah. How did you know where to go? Because like the broker told me like a couple of days, like, medvants like, okay, so girls that way. That's the shadow. Yeah, he gave me direction. So he's like a coyote. Yeah, it's like, yeah, yeah, he's in a way. Yeah, he's like a coyote. Yeah. And then yeah, and then I crossed the river and then like, okay, so some guy with a hat, white hat, and a blue share and the jeans and like what kind of shoes that your father will find him. So your dad was supposed to meet you? Yeah. So my dad was in the older side of the China with a taxi cab, right? So as soon as I crossed the river, I saw my dad and I got into a taxi cab and we drove straight to the hotel. I slept one night and then the next day we took like 12 hours bus to a little bit inside of China. The first night. Yeah. You're in the hotel. Yeah. You're in China. Yeah. You've never been outside of it. I've never been outside of China. What was that like? I'm to be honest, I'm just lying down on a hotel. Hotel room. It didn't feel that. I didn't feel like where am I? But were you like, what the hell, dad? Yeah. This is some bullshit. Yeah. I've been stuck in this hellhole for a decade and a half. But you know, like as a child, you know, like you never met your father, right? But you don't feel like that's your father, you know? It's like it's a stranger, you know, like strangers. It was kind of awkward, but like he was really good to me. He was nice. Yeah. He was really, really nice. You know, he's trying to like get me anything. And first time in a farmer's market in China, right? I slept banana and I was like, oh yeah, I've seen one of those in like the cartoons in North Korea. Yeah. I picked it up. I'd buy it off. I just tried it with a pill on, right? And my dad just laughing his ass off like, you shouldn't supposed to eat like the shit, peel it off. And I was like, I was tasting it. It's so bitter. Yeah. It's not good with the people. Why is people eating banana? It's like, I don't understand, you know? But yeah, that was like first like like a like a stupid thing that I would like to see. You'd be like, oh man. Oh man. These things are overrated. Yeah. It's like, this is the thing. It looks so much better in the cartoon. Yeah. The next day. Yeah. You guys go out. Yeah. So the next day we arrived at my father's place, right? 12 hours away. I got to my dad's place. And then I feel like I was like a child again, you know? Because a lot of times like I had to grow up a lot faster in other kids because of I had to, you know, I had to be the man, you know, like I have to be like, I had to grow up to nurse my mom and live on my own, live on this street for a while. So you were homeless for a while. I was homeless because like when I was living with my aunt, my aunt and my uncle, they fought like a lot every single night. Well, she sounds like a horrible person. Yeah. Because she blackmailed your dad. Yeah. You can kill you. So yeah, no kidding. That's cheating. Get along with her husband either. So the argument that ended me kicking out, like kicked out, you know, from the house. Half the year I was living on a street. What is that like? I know we're moving backwards, but this is important. Yeah, it's put a pin in being in China with your dad and we're back to being homeless in Korea. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, being homeless in North Korea, it's not easy. And it's like life or death, you know? Like, like even though you have a candy in your mouth, you know, but somebody come punch me in the like cheek and just take it. You have something. You have something. You have to like spend it or you have to eat it as soon as possible. Otherwise, they're going to come in. They're going to take it away. Take it. Yeah. And you were what 12 13? Yeah, I was 12 and 12 and a half. Wow. It's always like a fight. It's like a war. You know, you have to be prepared to like throw a punch like every single day because like there's always a guy trying to come to like me and like trying to take the things away from me. Either I don't have anything, right? Or they're just going to come to you and just they're going to be the shout out of me. Where are you living on the streets? On the street, like a train station, like a boy in the air by boiler. Oh, near the boiler to stay warm. Yeah, to stay warm because it's a winter. It was winter. Oh my god. That's rough. Korean winters are no joke. Uh-huh. Yeah. If you're pee, right? It's going to froze from the bottom. If you spit out the just live up, you know, it's kind of freezing. Yeah. And that's is that cold? Yeah. Is this common homelessness in North Korea? Yeah, it's a lot. Call me so there are a lot of other people in this area. Yeah, right. So it's really competitive. Wow. So it's other people without homes. Yeah. Yeah. As you put it doing battle with to stay alive. Okay. Let's go back to China. Go back to China. You've already been through all this stuff as well. Yeah, I've already been through all this stuff. So was it a relief then to be in China? Yeah, it was a so much relief because I feel like I can have like my future, right? I can have my dream, you know, and my dream promised the hope, you know, and whole promised tomorrow. What was your dream at that point? Just living my life normal. To have a normal life. Yeah. Have a normal life anywhere. But North Korea. Just not North Korea, you know, because I'm going to like, you know, PC ball, and it's like a people like an arcade, you know, I'm going to PC bar. Yeah, PC ball. Yeah. I go there, you know, I play computer, you know, and I play like arcade, you know, street fighter, king of fighter, you know, and all those kind of stuff that older kids do, you know, are playing arcade. So I was living the dream in China, right? I was like, I was so happy, you know, and like, because like, I don't have to back for a place to sleep overnight, or I don't have to back for a food from the strangers on the street, right? I was living my life and freedom for a moment. But unfortunately, Chinese government didn't recognize North Koreans as refugees and and they capture me. The Chinese citizen reporting me to the government. - Somebody in your neighborhood? - Yeah, somebody in my neighborhood. - How do they find out? - 'Cause they've been keeping eye on new rivals, right? And then they see a kiss, smoke, it, dark, 'cause like skinny, Chinese gets her fat. They're super pale, 'cause they've been eating really well. But I'm really dark, short. And I'm like, they could tell by my eyes, I'm rolling like, I'm trying to turn us to something. Always alert, 'cause like Chinese cats, like, they don't do that. Yeah, I do that, like pretty like strong. - So the neighbor, other people in the neighborhood picked up on that? - Yeah, they picked up on it. - And they called the police. - Oh my God. - Yeah, and then nine months later, in 2009 January, police came to our house with a gun, like a pistol. There was like, I think like eight or nine of them. And then like, when I saw, when I looked down, there was like a black horse just like surrounded like the apartment. That was scary. Like, these guys, you know, there's just barging into a room, having a gun in their hand and like, looking on the rooms. And then they handcuffed me, and then they took me to the jail. - How old were you? - I was, I was 15. - Was your dad there? - My dad was there, but he couldn't do anything, because he, he has no way of proving that I'm his son. - Oh man. - Yeah, and you know, I remember the day I lost all hope. Now I was in the back of a Chinese police truck, changed like a couple of other North Koreans. You know, in Chinese jail, I'm in a Chinese jail right now, with like a couple of all of the North Koreans. And like the living situations, you know, like, the people, the how they fed us, it's like, they fed us with like, the food from left overs, you know, food, like leftover food from the, from the guards. And then like, finally it's a deporting day. So I was, I was in the Chinese jail for like two weeks. And then it's the, it's the day that finally, we getting, we're getting deported to North Korea. And you know, like, we turned a corner and I could see the North Korean border in the distance. And I was so scared and afraid that I might be in big trouble when I was, as far as I step back in North Korean. And I knew that, you know, I'm gonna be in big trouble. And then the truck rolled us stop at the border and the guards were screaming at me to get off the truck. And you know, I was so scared. They're like training us like an animal. And then yeah, so they, I was, I got on to another, another like a Jeep with a couple of other North Koreans. And then we got transported. Sorry. Okay. Transport. Yeah, transport. It's like other like a interrogation first interrogation part, right? And then yeah, I got to the first interrogation part. Cause like, there are so many people, so many North Korean defectors that are in the jail. They have no place to put us in, right? So I had to stand right in front of the sale, right? In 2000, 2009, January. And then like you have to know, like, if you get caught in China, but if you get caught near by the border, it's fine. And I like, oh, they're like, so after the interrogation, right? Or if you're trying to go to China for just looking for the food in a border, that's fine. You know, like, oh, yeah, just go to the labor camp, labor camp for four years. Yeah, fine. I wouldn't, I wouldn't throw that in the fine column. Four years of labor camp. I mean, yeah, that's like the punishment, right? They don't kill you, right? But like, it's just like a basically a death sentence, you know, because it's really hard to survive in a labor camp for four years. But if you get caught deeper inside of China, which is Mongolia, you know, which is like around like really south of China, that's a reflac, which means you're moving towards somewhere, which is going to South Korea, right? So it's worse. It's worse. Now you were 12 hours away from the border. But I was still with, yeah, within like the safe range, enough safe region. And then I was standing right in front of the sale and this one lady, she bites off her vein and she bleeds to death. She bit her, yeah, yeah, he had better risk, wide open. Cause like she got caught in Mongolia. And the government knows that she's trying to defect to like South Korea. So they wouldn't let her go. I heard like a stories about her like from the fellow like prisoners. Like she just there for a long time. You know, it's just getting interrogator like every single day for a couple of hours. They wouldn't let her sleep. They wouldn't like let her eat. And then the office got cleared out. So in the jail, there is no room in the jail. So they couldn't present the jail. So they put me in a separate office. So this is a boy. Boy, who is stands for secret police in North Korea. Oh, secret police. Like, do you even know where that was? Yeah, it's not. Namnyang. It's not right across the border. Yeah, but the border. There's like a special special place. Yeah, interrogation part. And then I'm sitting in the office and across the room. I hear scream. You know, like guys like, oh my god, my legs are broken. Oh, please forgive me. My legs are broken. My ribs are broken. I'm bleeding to death. You know, I'm like hearing all the screams, you know, and I'm like terrified. Like that's going to be me. Like they're gonna, they're gonna kill me. But luckily I was only 15. I didn't get bitten bitten. I'd be. Yeah, I'm not that bad. This is like slap me, you know, kick me, you know, still like for a couple of times. What are they trying to do? Are they trying to punish you? No, they're trying to get information from me. They're trying to get information from what sort of stuff do they want to know? They ask about everything. Like everything, like literally everything. What did you do in China? China? What did you eat? What did you feel? What did you see? What did you feel? Yeah, what did you feel in China? Like, okay, so you've seen like a couple of social media. You know, how did you feel about that? You know, like you've seen like people talking about Kim Jong-il. How do you feel about that? Like you've seen a lot of like cars. You've seen a lot of like buildings, a lot of tall buildings. What are they trying to to sus out in those questions? Like I learned that Kim Jong-il is bad. That's the things that they want again. Because if you say that, then they're going to punish you more. They're going to kill us. Yeah. If you say that, they're going to there's no way out. If you say that, but I have to say like, I know what to say. You know, like I know like because I have the things that I've seen in China, but I couldn't say you knew how to lie. Yeah, I know, like I know how to like. So what do you say? Like I saw capitalism and how it runs people. I mean, what do you say? I mean, I saw, yeah, so like the bad boys too was not as good as bad boys one. I learned that Will Smith is awesome, but not as awesome as Jong-il. So good. He's the bad ass, you know, he's he should be in bad boys. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I was a child, right? So he, they didn't like really ask me that questions. Like a lot like multiple times. It's like, let's get it over with. They were trying to get it over with. Yeah, just like, oh, yeah. I was 15. I was like, oh, yeah, I was just living with my dad. Oh, I was just, I don't know. I don't know like, like I don't know. I don't know. Like I don't know. And they're like, what do you mean you don't know? And let's get up and punch me in the face for a couple of times. And then like 20 days, I was in there. You're there for three weeks. Yeah, I was questioning you for three weeks. Charles, I just have to ask you, you seem really brave. I guess is the word and smart. Do you think you were always that way? Or had you been through so much stuff already that you sort of knew how to handle a situation like that? I mean, like when it comes to your life or death, I think that's like in people's instinct. And the first thing that they would do is like trying to protect your life. Sometimes I heard like people like, like when they're in a dying situation, it's like, oh, please kill me. You know, I don't think that's something that they would say. They're like, oh, please save me. I don't know. I think maybe it's in my blood. I don't know, but I believe that everyone could do it. Like it's written in DNA. You know, it's written in code, you know, so like you can't escape that. But I think yeah, if it comes to life or death, you will do it. So at that point, you were just, you knew you wanted to survive. So you were doing whatever you had to do. Yeah, whatever I had to do, right? You know, most of like 15 years old kids, you know, American kids are in sophomore and high school, right? Yeah. They go to like sports practices, you know, they're busy with like sports practices, you know, and like doing everything, you know, sophomore thingy. Yeah, the hardest thing in your life are wind sprints on the football team. Yeah. And a little acne or something. Yeah. Some, some, some Z, my wife plays the slow. Yeah. Yeah. And you're in a, in a secret police. I was in a labor camp. So right after 20 days, I got transported to reeducational, detention center. Are they actually teaching you things there? Are they just punishing you there? They are brainwashing us, right? So what you do is you work there, as long as they want you to work there, right? And then at night, they'll force us to recite the rules of the camp, right? So at age of 15, I was in a detention center working like 18 hours, I don't know, 12, 16, 18, eating like 50, 150 kernels corn a day for nine months. You know, I thought they're gonna release me pretty soon because like, I was only 15 and that's what they told me to, you know, and I was told that I'll be there for only a couple of weeks because I was so young, right? I was only 15. I worked really hard for a couple of like weeks, right? Because I didn't want it to get bitten again. Yeah, right? And months passed and I was not released. And that detention center, I was only allowed to eat 150 kernels of corn a day, right? And I started to lose weight and I could see my rib cage. And I had to do like whatever I had to do to survive. And one morning, we were marching in our rows to work site and on the side, I saw a dry vomit. Dry vomit. Dry vomit in the row. Somebody like, I don't know, somebody sick or somebody drunk, they threw up and then I saw a dry rice in the vomit. And I was so hungry that I got on my hands and knees and began pinging to the dry vomit. So you picked the rice out of the dry vomit? Yeah, I ate it. Oh, wow. It was like a sand, a dirt, you know. And I didn't stop eating the rice, one minute rice until the beating from the guards were too unbearable. And at night, the guards were storming their cells and forced us to recite the rules of the camp. And if you missquoted even one rule, like they would like force to stand all night, reciting the rules until work began next morning. Oh my God. What are the rules of the camp? I will never talk about life outside of North Korea. I'll never talk about bad things about Kim Jong-un. What I see, how I feel. I'll never talk about anything that I saw in China. I will just sleep in my life like a bug. These are the rules of the camp. Yeah. You have to, you have to know these rules. You have to memorize those rules. How many are there? There's like a, I can't remember. There's like 40. So it's a list of 40. Yeah, principles. Yeah, principles like, there's a wall like that. It's like a wall. Yeah, also on the wall. That's like the size as twice as big as this, this room. And then there's like 20 people, 30 people, you know, lying in the floor. This room is like 10 by 15. And there's 20 people in there. Double us this side. Oh, double us. It's okay. The other was distilled. Yeah. And like we sit in the robes and then we face those like the posts. And then we recite, oh, like I'll never do this. I'll never do that. I'll never do this. You know, I'll never talk about life outside of North Korea. I'll be a good citizen. I'll never escape, you know. Is this what they mean by reeducation? Yeah, reeducation. They're basically trained, trying to train you. Yeah, trying to train us and trying to let us, trying to like work us off. Right. And what's going through your mind while you're reciting those principles? I was starving. You were just trying to again, trying to survive. Yeah, trying to survive. Was there any part of you that thought, maybe I'll actually follow these principles or in your mind, you're like, this is bullshit. This is bullshit. You knew it was bullshit. Yeah. Even though you were hungry. I was so angry. I was like, I was like, hungry. You know, like, I was like a new role of it. Yeah. It's like, I'm gonna get the hell out of here. And I'm gonna escape again. I'm gonna escape until I die trying again. Whoa. In the camp, you found it. In the camp, right? Because like we're working every single day for nine months, no rest from seven a.m. to whenever they say stop. It could be like one a.m. It could be 12 a.m. It could be 11 p.m. like no matter what, right? Eating 50 pieces of caramel per meal, right? So they have a job for counting those coins, right? And for nine months, nothing else. They have a job. Yeah, somebody's job is counting those coins. Right? That just pissed you off. Yeah. And then the guards, right? We're working in a field. Whatever it is, we're building a concrete. You know, we're building a building. You know, we're farming. We're constructing. We're on a on a forest, cutting down the tree. They tell us every day you escape again. We don't care. But don't get caught. Guards. Yeah. Yeah. Don't get caught. Don't get caught. If you get caught, you're gonna die. This is what happens if you get caught. We can't stop you. We can prevent you from escaping it. But we can do these things to you once you get caught, right? And I'm listening that every day. And like, the main principle is like, if you escape it, if you get caught, they're dead. Basically they're dead. So like, don't have that thought. That's what they're trying to tell us. But in your mind, somehow that got translated as I'm going to do it anyway because I'm not doing it anyway. Cause it's like because this place is terrible. Yeah. I mean, that's like basically everyone's mind. Everybody in the camp felt that way. Yeah. Everybody felt in that way. Cause like, there was like, and I won another like weak guy. And I was like, I was the youngest in the, like, detention center, right? And there is like another like weak, you know, like, there's always like a head and there's a tail, right? And I was below tail. But the tail always telling me like, you know, I'm going to get out of here. And I'm going to do it again. I'm going to do it again. And then a lot of people actually feel that way too. And then funny enough, I was in a international refugee camp in Southeast Asia. And then I met this dude from the, from the detention center. You ran into somebody, you ran into someone. Cause I remember that guy because he stole my shoes. Right? Because I had up pretty good shoes when I, when I got into the detention center. I had a real, that's from China, from China. So he wanted to do Chinese shoes. Yeah. So it was really new, you know, and it was really like comfortable. But that guy saw my shoes and he liked it. He's like, can I have the shoes? I'm like, no, you can't like, what am I going to wear? You know, like, he's on a, you can wear mine. And he's shoes like fell apart. No, I'm like, no, you know, but he took it anyway. And then he told me his story much later on. Like, yeah, your shoes helped me a lot. You know, so while he was, you know, during the interrogation, right? He stole a paperclip and he swallowed it. Right? And then he went to the bathroom, he put it out. And then he kept it, right? He kept the paperclip. And then while like he's done working at the, I don't know, he's like, he's stated for like a year, you know, detention center. While he was like, like a transferring to like other facility, other like a transferring to his like hometown, he was handcuffed around the table in the train, right? And then while the police officer, right, their police officer, who's like moving them while they fell asleep, he took out the paperclip and he picked his handcuffs. Yeah, he picked his handcuffs and he escaped. Why? He escaped, he escaped. And then he escaped to China again. And he worked in China about a year. And then at the same time, I'm sorry, yeah, I'm not going to support anyway. How are you going to come back to that? I'm going to come back to that. Yeah, you're already like, yeah, this is the best story. Yeah. And then, yeah, and then, incredible. And then nine months later, I was finally released from the labor camp from the detention center because I have lost so much weight that I was worthless worker. You know, I couldn't even lift my arm or even stand up. You know, I have, I was like a bone in the skin. So there was no point. There's no point of keeping me, right? So like one one day, like this, the head of the detention center comes out and like counting our heads, right? How many like, and then he's like screaming yelling at these kids like this like, arch, right? What the heck are you guys doing? Send them home. We don't need them. You know, like, we don't need them to work for me. You know, like, why aren't you doing your job? You send those guys home. You know, you send those guys to like whatever they belong. You know, and then next day, to pull his officer shows up and then they took me away. What job were you doing in the camp? I was doing everything. I was doing like literally everything that those still. What what what what kind of work? It's everything literally everything. It's like construction. Okay. Building bricks, building concrete, farming. So you're outside. Outside. Always like we're always working outside of the camp, right? Let's say for example, it's raining. You can't work. There's no work, right? Then you go, you used to work in within campus, right? So there is a bunch of sandbags and bricks. Yes, sandbags and bricks, right? There's like a pile of sandbags. And then you move the sandbags. Point eight to be in the morning. And in the afternoon, you move that back sandbag from B to A. Oh, they're just having you do work even it worthless stuff. Yeah, we're much of the work was meaningless and how much was actually supposed to accomplish something. Like 99% of the work that we did was actually building, you know, my constructions and our farming and real stuff. Yeah, real stuff. And like one person was like sometimes like it rains, you know, I see they just wanted to get you busy. Yeah, keep us busy, you know, so that we don't think about, you know, escaping again, you know, that's their method. There's 80 to 120,000 people in these labor camps. There's all different kinds of levels of labor camps, right? So the first level is reeducation or training camp, right? Is that where you were in? No, I was at detention center. So that's another level. That's another level. That's like really, it's like a detention center for North Korean defectors. So where they get transferred to their hometown and they get judgment and then they go to educational labor camp which is like a four years right and then there's There is like a reeducational and there is like a work reeducational like a labor camp for like six months or something. That's the lowest for six months. And then there is like a four years of a reeducational camp and there is a political labor camp. Political labor camp is the highest. You never get out of there. You're born there either. I wasn't there. I'm not from political labor camp but I'm going to North Korean defector like a reeducational detention center. So I got out of there and then I went back to my stepbrothers house. That was 2000, 2009, October. So I was in the detention center for nine months and then I spent like months trying to regain my strength. So you're about 16? I was around 16. But you have to know there's like a I was born 1994. And then because like Korean age in the United States is different because they count it one year old. One year old. No, when you're in there, they're counted from the stomach. Right. So when you're born, it's already one year. Oh, okay. Right. So you're really 15? Yeah, I was at the 15. Right. Actually, when I got released. And then I spent like months trying to regain my strength. And after spending like months trying to regain my strength, I needed to find a job. Without any money, it was like impossible to support myself. Was your stepbrother welcoming? He wasn't welcoming. I mean, he was doing fine. But in 2010, there was a currency devaluation happening in North Korea. I'm not sure if you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it killed like thousands of people. Because the money that they were saving and running for their businesses just became worthless. Exactly. So like a lot of like our neighbors, you know, committed suicide because like one day they had something, one day they didn't have anything. And they have no hope of living. So my brother also sold a business like I kicked out. And then I had to support myself. So I needed to find a job. So you're on your own again? I'm on my own. Do you have a place to live? I don't, but I found it. Like where I'm from, like the coal mine is really popular. And I had to lie on my age to get in there. Right? So I'm like, oh, I'm 18, you know, like I can't work. I find it really ironic that they're concerned with child labor laws and literally no other aspect of it. And meanwhile, he just got out of a detention center slash labor camp. Yeah, you're old enough to go to a labor camp and be basically to work tortured. But you're too young to work in this coal mine for a proper amount of time. Yeah. But you got this job. I got this job. Did you just wander into a coal mine? Yeah. No. So I started working in a coal mine while I was paid only in rice. Right? Six days a week, I went into the cold. Damn, total of mine. And most of other boys that were working in the mine were my age. We'll push a thousand pound street core cart miles into the mine. You're pushing the mine cart. So mine coal cart, right? It's like empty coal cart is already like a thousand pound a thousand pounds. Yeah, because it's old metal, right? It's all metal. And you guys are pushing it into the mine. So they're not mechanized. They're like, they're like man, man, everything is made because like there's no power. It's all young guys 15, 14. So the youngest I've seen is like 12. And then the oldest I've seen is like 80. Yeah, 80 year old man. And they're paying you guys in rice. Yeah. Is that common? That's really common. Yeah. They don't pay us with like, but they provide housing. They provide meals, three meals a day. Okay. And then at the end of the month, they will pay us 30 kilograms of rice per month. So it's just slavery. It's like subsistence basically. They're just keeping you fed in house. Yeah, fed in house. Yeah. So you were in the told mine for how long? Yeah, for about a year, you know. And within that year, like I have made a lot of friends. You know, I, you know, I was like hanging out with them, you know, having really good time. You know, like it's all like my age. You know, it's like we were like at night, you know, we'll go nuts. You know, we'll drink, you know, we'll party, you know, what'd you get alcohol? They feed us. Oh, right. Because like when you, when you breathe cold in your lungs, yeah, the only thing that it can wash away is alcohol. I'm not sure about the science on that, but I'm pretty sure they're just getting you drunk so that you forget that you have cold dust in your lungs. Really? Yeah. I don't think because when you swallow things, it doesn't go into your lungs. But like when you breathe, right? Probably it's like a disinfectant though, right? That's what they mean. I mean, I'm pretty sure they're just getting you drunk so you don't complain about the fact that everybody's got either way you guys don't mind. Yeah, I'm really not mind you. Yeah, you're 15, right? This is so wild. So this was not a bad period for you really. I mean, I know it's not ideal, but like. I feel like relatively relatively this is way better than getting tortured by guards at a camp. I'm guessing this was a step up for you. Yeah, this is a step up for me, but I lost a lot of friends. You lost a lot of friends. You lost them because the coal mine accident, you know, cave in and like sometimes the coal cart for flip, right? And sometimes it would land on people. If you got out of the coal mine, right? And then sometimes my rain boots, it's leaking. So I can't tell it's a blood or it's a coal water, you know, because it's so sticky. It could be blood, you know? You know what I mean? Like it's like sometimes you'll land it on people, you'll crush people, you know? There's like people losing arms, legs because of the coal mine accident. You know, there's like a coal cart, right? Imagine like with a coal, you know, it's like five kilograms, thousand kilograms of like coal, right? Wet coal, right? And then plus thousand pounds of steel coal cart. So it's kind of a two thousand pound. Imagine that kind of like heavy weight is landing on people. Like it was a crush you. This is like a regular occurrence. It's not regular. It's not. It happened like often, you know, like caveans are really often because a lot of people want to make money. You know, so they claim that they know how to set up the frame in the coal mine, but they really don't. You know, they just want to get paid more. If you know how to do that, they'll pay you to do more. Right. They're trying to get out as much coal as possible. Yeah, right. Right. So I'm assuming there are no like safety regulations. There's no such thing. Yeah, there's no such thing. It's like it does us. As long as you have a helmet, like a like a flashlight, right? And you have a rain boots, you have a glove. You're safe. That's the proper way. No. So these guys, they're, they're men. I'm assuming. Yeah, they're all men. No, no, I mean, like there's a woman's two. They're women. A lot of women. Oh, okay. So men and women. Yeah, my husband hanging out. We're hanging out in hours after I was thinking, you know, and partying and watching movies. You know, and like so you can watch movies. It's point. Yeah. Yeah. It's like legally, you know, but coal mine. It's like the place where like every like, you know, like criminal, you know, like with like a bright mind. You know, like people with like, oh, who on a party? You know, they come in, right? And then they bring like South Korean dramas. They bring like four movies, you know. Wait, I'm sorry. Why does coal mining attract former criminals in North Korea? I mean, like young millennials, you know, they do that a lot. They like that job. Yeah, they like that job because like they get paid, right? And they get paid rice and then they can sell that rice and then they make they can make money out of it. You know, so like, for example, like people without any family, it's really good deal for them. You know, because I have no family to protect. I have no family to pay. I get fit like three times a day, right? And I have like, I have a night off. And then I get every single month. I get 30 kilograms of rice. And in North Korea at the time, like a per kilogram of rice was like five thousand one, right? So imagining you're selling 30 kilograms of rice and they're getting that as a cash. That's what you did. That's what I did. So you used to become an entrepreneur? Yeah, entrepreneur. Yeah. So you're like arbitraging your rice regions. Yeah. But at the same time, like I had a lot of like memories of, you know, China, you know, being free. And watching all those people, you know, like injured, you know, and people who didn't make it out. And like I thought about it like, oh my god, that's gonna be me one day. Right. It's only a matter of time. So sooner or later, I'm gonna be like that. And you know, I know how hard it is to be a scam in North Korea without any money or food. And I knew that if I was caught, I could be killed this time because I'm like, this is the second time escaping. And also there is an emergency. But those kind of risks over a way that we're getting the dark coal mine every day. Until it was my turn to the limb or die. Right. So we choice or worth it. Yeah, you're like, do I stay here and possibly die or grow old doing this crazy job or do I try to get free? Yeah, try to get free. So while you're working at the mine and selling the rice to get a little extra money in the back of your mind, you're already planning on like escaping. So Jason, I know you weren't in the room for this one. What do you think so far? Oh my god. This is one of those stories that anytime I'm having a bad day, feeling sorry for myself, thinking things are just so terrible. I'm just gonna go back and listen to this because it could be so much worse. Right. Yeah. You've just finished part one here. Part two. There's more. There's plot twist galore. This is just an incredible story. And I'll tell you, I had nightmares after doing this show and so did Gabriel and so did Jen. We all had nightmares after this. It's just it's just nuts and it gets even more intense in part two. Great big thank you to Charles. He's gonna be back with us in a couple of days with part two. Ever wonder how I managed to book all these amazing guests on the show? It's always through my network and I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits over at our six minute networking course, which is free over at Jordan Harbinger.com/core. I know you think you'll do it later. Don't wait. Do it now. You can't kick that can down the road You cannot make up for lost time when it comes to relationships and networking the number one mistake I see people making is post-poning this and not digging the well before they get thirsty You have to dig the well before you get thirsty once you need relationships. You are too late These drills are designed to take just a few minutes per day This is the stuff I wish I knew decades ago. It is not fluff. It is crucial Find it all for free at Jordan Harbinger.com/course By the way, most of the guests on the show they actually subscribe to the course and the newsletter So come join us and you'll be in smart company Jordan Harbinger.com/course Speaking of relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from Charles so far I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram where I post videos and photos and fun stuff a lot these days And don't forget if you want to learn how to apply everything you heard here from Charles make sure you go grab the work sheets Also in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com/podcast This episode was produced and edited by Jason the Philip O Show notes by Robert Fogarty special thanks to Gabriel Mizrahi for joining me on this one worksheets by Caleb Bacon booking back office and last minute miracles by Jen Harbinger and I'm your host Jordan Harbinger The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful Which hopefully isn't every single episode So please share the show with those you love and even those you don't Lots more in the pipeline very excited to bring it to you in the meantime do your best to apply what you hear on the show So you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time quick Break to put you on to another show you should be listening to if you enjoyed my interview with Javier Liev about romance scams back on episode 1195 You'll want to check out his podcast pretend Javier is an investigative journalist who lives in the world of lies manipulation and deception and but he's still a nice guy and on pretend He doesn't just tell these stories. He gets inside them. He talks directly to scammers cult leaders and the people they've conned He just has a way of getting them to reveal things that I'm making away. Okay, you're just gonna admit that and the cases are bananas a Cyber-stocking story where the victims turned out to be the stalkers a true crime Podcast or accused of harassing victims for content. No, it's not him and Javier spending a day with a cult leader Yes, including an exorcism that must have been a fun afternoon plus he digs into the real Frank Abignail from catch me if you can Let's just say the movie took some liberties pretend has been featured on Netflix's don't pick up the phone Spotify tagged it as a breakout hit and it's consistently up there with the top true crime shows search pretend wherever you get your podcasts