Changing Viewpoints Publicly: Wil, Casey and Jeff

We don't have to start right from the gig. - Yeah, did you guys go see the Odyssey yet? - Oh my gosh, no. - See it twice already. - We haven't seen it twice. Have you seen it? - No. - And I wanna see it in the theater. They filmed it on IMAX film. - Oh really? - Yeah. - No, it's crazy. - I'll go see it. - Yeah, I mean, 'cause I'm taking a group of degrees in the spring and I'm like, it was, and I was like Christopher Nolan, but. - Oh yeah. - You guys probably don't know how much I go to the movie theater. - Well, I know you like Tuesdays. - Megaplex Tuesday, $5 Tuesday, then $575 now. But they had a, just to give you kind of, I'm on a first name basis out of the Providence Megaplex. (laughing) And I went to Italy last, in April, and I was gone for a month, and they had a staff meeting about me. (laughing) They were worried that I'd gone, started going to the University of Megaplex, 'cause my buddy said they got better popcorn. - Oh, and seating. - They got better seating. - They got stadium seating, and they thought they had, so they literally had a point to talk about Casey during staff meeting. - They lost their number one. (laughing) - Like what's going on. And I'm still loyal to Providence, but I'm just, anyway, I just thought that was funny. - That is awesome. - No, I need to go see Odyssey. - I haven't been to, I don't remember the last time I was in a theater. - Wait, really? - I'd bet it's been a year. - Oh, this would be perfect. - Yeah. - Go see this one and just-- - I quit paying attention to movies, 'cause they got so expansive. - Yeah. - I just kind of tuned it out. - I just, Tuesday. - Yeah. - All right, yeah. - I got all sorts of shenanigans I do for popcorn and all sorts of stuff. - Okay, I mean, I made you see Hail Mary in the theater then? - No. - I have not seen that. - I mean, that was-- - Yeah. - I've seen movies. - You know what, I would take it upon myself to be like, this one you gotta see in the theater. 'Cause there's a few that are just like, bangers in the theater. - Yeah, yeah. - See, I hear that and I think back to Independence Day. - Exactly. - Wait 90s, was it like 97? - Yeah. - It's like you had to see that one in the theater, right? - Yeah. - Well, yeah, this is Odyssey, dude. You gotta go. - All right. - This is a good reminder for me to go to movies. - Yeah. - And I did a experiment last week to find out, you know, milk duds at the Island market. They're $3. Mavericks $250. Dollar store's a buck, dude. I went into the dollar store and I was like, man, I just got, $25 worth of candy for like $4. - Okay, but yeah. Keep going, I think I know where you're going. - Well, I'm gonna answer my question. - Well, he told me, he's like, dude, the mega plug sometimes comes in and buys their candy at the dollar store. - Are you serious? - When they're run out. - Dude, we've done stuff like that. - Yeah. - Love to cook, 'cause it's just like, yeah, really? - We they can't compete. - Yeah, anyway. - Yeah. - I saw that post and I was gonna ask you about the freshness all. - Yeah. - It was a $2 box. Sometimes it was worth not breaking a tooth on a milk dud. - Yeah. - Agreed. - If you leave your dollar store, but duds out in your car and the heat, they do, it does work for you. - Sealed Ferris Bueller's stay off trip. - Yeah. - Huh? - Yeah. - I'm talking about that. - That's so funny. - It's been in my pocket all day. (laughing) - Anyway, I love that, but, well, we are gonna talk about something serious today. Not really, but. - Yeah. - Jeff and I got to talk in the other day and Will, first of all, couldn't have you back. - Dude, it's so good to be here. - We're missing you. - I've been missing this. - We have, Will and I go in these little spurts and this is what we're gonna talk about too. We go through, we evolve and we like, sometimes we're just like, when I came back from Portugal last fall, I was like, I went like a month and a half, two months, right? I didn't even wanna talk, I think about religion or anything. And then just like, we didn't do anything. - Yeah. - And then all of a sudden, like, okay, I'm ready. - Weird, you're human. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Right. - Yeah. - That's awesome. - Right? - We've gotta have our seasons too. - Yeah. - Yeah. - The Jeff was telling me the days, like I've watched you kind of like, watched the evolution of when I started doing Instagram. The ebbs and flows, the anger, the no anger, the all, whatever it is. So we're gonna get into that. But I wanted to, I don't know, I wanted to tell you that I was just thinking today that I started this Instagram account, pioneering paradox. In a castle in Ireland, I was doing a photo shoot and they rented this place, rented in the entire Dremel and castle. It was phenomenal. And I was just having, I got stuck on a train with a Mormon influencer who was the videographer. And we had a two, we got, actually got off the wrong exit. And we had two days where we just were, just me and him on this thing. And we were just having these long conversations about religion and it was stirring me up. And I was like, okay, it's time. I'm just gonna pick a name and go for it. 'Cause you know, well, I've always felt like I could have picked into sexier name, but it's the only thing I could think of. But anyway. I mean, I think you nailed it. Yeah, I think it's good. I think you could try a hundred times and not come up with something that good. Yeah, this is the hardest in me, you know? Yeah, I give it. Anyway. I don't know, Jeff, maybe we have you lead. Jeff Low, by the way, thank you for being here. Yeah, of course. From Bonded Brotherhood, Jeff's podcast and his retreats he does for men is awesome. And I know it's providing a service to a lot of fellows who are feeling lonely, who are feeling. I don't think people realize just how big of a crisis there is among men right now. Yeah, it's massive. You know, I just turned 50 and this is where we were talking about as my wife through a surprise birthday party for me. And I was like in tears with the people that were there. Like the people from all walks of my life and I'm like, dude, I was awesome. And Casey was there and I'm gonna cry again to think about it. Yeah, I'm gonna, I felt so freaking love. I love that. Like that day that when I walked, she got me. She can never keep us. I love it. I know what my presence are. Month in advance because she gets excited and starts dropping hints and I'm like, Jeff don't say anything, you know, but you know, whatever, she got me 100%. The entire day was awesome. And then to get surprised like that, I was in tears. And I woke up the next day in tears because I've never felt so loved. Like it was awesome. I love that. That is so cool. And that's awesome. Like mission accomplished for Michelle. Yeah, that's probably exactly what she wanted. Yeah. Yeah, it was so cool. Into your point, I'm 50. Right. Why should me seeing the people that I love make me emotional? Right. Because life can kick us in the gut sometimes. Right. That's just the way it goes. Right. Sometimes life gets hard. We go through seasons and people need people. And I think, you know, if you use that analogy of getting kicked in the gut, you get kicked in the gut, you automatically retract. Yeah. And when life gets hard, I think it's so automatic for people to just retract. And then we isolate. And then we start telling ourself a story. And then it's been too long since I've talked to Casey. It'll be weird if I call him and go to lunch now. Yeah. And start telling ourselves these stories. And we isolate. And then we find ourselves not in a healthy place. And that's what Bond or Brotherhood is here for. That's where we step in and like, guys, look at your pattern. You don't have to do this alone. We've got a group of 30 guys right here in Cas Valley that are getting together regularly. And we had another guy show up yesterday, you know, a high end working professional that I'm sure a lot of people would know. I can't say his name, but it's just awesome. And where I'm going with this is to be 50 and to have something that I'm so passionate about, I feel so freaking blessed. That is awesome. Like, it's rare when I was teaching school and I started catching myself getting bored. I'm like, the kids don't deserve this. I don't want to live like this. Yeah. And I'm like, this is how you end up with 65-year-old teachers that everybody hates. And he's onry. Yeah. And I was lucky enough to have something else. I'm like, OK, I'm not going to teach school. I'm going to shift gears and go do this other thing that I know how to do that I've been building for the last 20 years anyway. So it's just interesting, you know? So yeah, I appreciate you bringing up bonded brotherhood. Yeah. I'll always take the plug. Like we're just here to build community. Well, I'll just tell you for-- because we have a lot of female listeners on here too. My daughter had got out of a relationship with somebody that she felt was maybe controlling. And she was kind of hating on men. And she listened to that episode with Jeff. And I went on a hike with her. And she said, this needs to Jeff restored my open men. I'm a cryl day. You've been-- Wow. Yeah. Wasn't that great? And so I just thought that was such a great episode. So go back and listen to that. And Jeff's just a solid dude, tender dude. So appreciate you being here. Yeah, super tender. I'll figure that out. You've held in your tears for so many years, dude. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I never thought of that. But that's probably true. And I can see now I was running. I didn't know what at the time, but I was running. Yeah. And I didn't know what I was running for from. And I think that'll tie into this conversation. Yeah. I think so. when I was chatting with him. you last week and I brought it up as a way to give you a compliment is the reason I brought that up. I don't remember exactly how the conversation came up but I have followed you online way longer than I've known you. Yeah, way longer. Yeah. But if I go back, if I think back to several years ago, Kaisu McFarland, you came on the scene on my radar as someone who I sensed was a little bit angry but was timid. Yeah. That's right. And I sensed there's more there. And that's part of the reason that I engaged so much. I thought there's this guy he's on to something I can feel that edge I want to support him. Right? There's something there. This guy needs to let the tiger out. Yeah. And and then to watch it and you're going, going, going and I feel a little bit more heat, a little bit more heat and then you disappear. Yeah. And I felt I remember for a while for a couple months. I'm like, oh, and I didn't know you this time. Yeah. But I noticed that you were gone off all social media. And I longed for it a little bit, not in a weird way. Sure. But I was like, oh, I really enjoyed what this guy put out, you know? And then you came back with the confidence. And maybe a little bit of vengeance like I'm here. I am here. Yeah. I'm not going to apologize anymore. You're going to know what I think. And I thought, what just happened those last two months to Casey, right? But then since then, I, you know, and this is this is all an observation from some random dude that is has gotten to know you, right? Personally, and I can see this now. But then you came back and you were angry. You were not, I wouldn't say angry, but you were more energetic and you were more unapologetic. Yeah. I wouldn't say the anger was there, but you were definitely more confident and unapologetic for this is this is who I am. This is what I think. This is what I believe. This is the direction. This is going. And then I've watched you soften. Yeah. I've watched you soften. You're still confident. The confidence is still there, but something in you has softened. And I brought that up that day last week to just give you credit for acknowledging and being real through all of those stages, because through all of those different stages, you are going through something different. And it's all understandable and it's all real. And it's a hundred percent understandable, but you've allowed yourself to flow. That's the compliment is that you allowed yourself to grow and flow and not get stuck because I haven't allowed myself to get stuck in one spot for way too long. But you haven't. You just flow. You flow, right? Like, I appreciate it. No, I know about it. Yeah. It's just the flow and you've allowed yourself to flow with the seasons. And I bring that up to tell you that it's beautiful to watch. Thank you, brother. Human. Thank you. Well, in case I think the one of the reasons I was like kind of drawn to your thoughts and having more conversations and then doing the podcast was, you know, you had opinions, you had strong feelings, but like you weren't like the ultimatum guy. Like you didn't speak and you never spoke in absolutes. Right. Like you were always like, what, you know, you'd present a problem and say, like, what the heck is up with this? But you would never say, this is the way. This is the only possibility. I usually don't trust people that say, this is the only way. You know, you either, huh? Well, I have to say when early on, I was nervous because I'm like, I don't want to ruin Will's reputation. Will's got will such a beloved person in our valley. And and it has been in the back of my head just like going, geez, I hope my, you know, I know there's people I just sat down with lunch with somebody who in the valley who's just like, so I know you, you, you left the church a long time ago. And I was like, well, I never really did. But there's people people perceive what they think or there's just people talk and all this sort of thing. And I'm like, it was a big fear of mine. And there's a temptation to not be true to yourself because there are because there's so many people pulling you different directions. And then that very first phase of the, of expressing myself online, I would look back and maybe think it was maybe a little passive aggressive. I had done a huge, a YouTube interview with somebody that just kind of tons of people were watching it. And I was very complimentary to the church, but I was very also honest about my experience. And this guy was a YouTuber and it just, it really kind of just, we were getting messages every day just saying, we need more of this, we need more of this. But I didn't feel like I was fully honest about just how painful the experience had been, just how deep. And I didn't feel like I was, so in the back of my head, I even had a conversation with my friend, right? And he knew me and he listened to it and he didn't say anything about that episode. And I was just like, I know what you're thinking. Because I had, we had been, it downplayed a 10 year, 10 year struggle. Yeah. And I didn't feel like I was representing the listeners who also had been through that struggle. That's when I quit because I was feeling this struggle inside of me going, I don't feel like I'm fully being honest. And interestingly enough, that too, I was a firehouse pizza real with my kids. And I was doing the living school with Richard Roer. And I hadn't said anything on social media for a couple months. And the week that week that we studied Jonah and the well, oh my gosh, which became like this story of just like, am I trying to hide in the belly of the well? Am I trying to hide from maybe something I need to say? Not. And this is what I, what I said to you the other day, I said, Jeff, this is all a projection of my projection. This is like, you think you're saying something because you're like, oh, I'm going to do this for the people. But you're, if I'm really honest, it's just because I need to do it for myself. No, there you go. And that's the truth of the matter. You tell yourself, you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. I'm going to say this vengeful thing because I'm trying to protect the people who are not believers anymore. And I'm like, no, I'm trying to protect my own self right now. Yeah. And sometimes you're trying to validate yourself. Yeah. Sometimes you're conflicted. That's a, that's a good way to put it. And anger is the best way to, to put it out there. I've caught myself and I've been learning this. This is by no means who I am yet. But it's becoming more, more automatic that when I feel something upset, angry, whatever, and I've used this example before, I'm having a conversation on the front yard with my daughter and my wife about how we're going to train our puppy. And I've been reading books and I've been all this and that, you know, like I want to have a dog that doesn't bark when people knock on the door, like I want to train this dog. It's I've been trying to educate myself. And we're going through it and the puppies there. We come up to one of these instances that like, ooh, I need to do this. And I'm explaining to my wife and my daughter, this is why we're going to do this, this and this so that they can have some context and understand. And while I was talking, my wife cuts me off and said, oh, well, I saw online somewhere that we should do this, this and this. And it made me mad. Right. It made me mad. And I kind of snapped at her a little bit. I'm like, hey, what the heck, you know, and even my daughter was like, dad, what the heck? And then I thought, okay, what is it about me that I didn't like what just happened? Right. What is it about me? What's going on inside of me that I felt anger when I got cut off. And somebody had a different opinion. Yeah. Right. And so sometimes what we put out is the path of least resistance if we allow them to be. And unless we can slow ourselves down and say, you know, I've been there, right? I'm in a, what I would consider a pretty unique situation in my marriage where I haven't left the church, but I've left the church almost 20 years ago. And my wife goes to the temple every month. And we've made it work. And then we had to raise our kids. And what are the kids going to do and how we this, how we that, you know, like it's been very, very unique. And I've been angry. I've had the anger. I've had years, years and years and years of the anger where I would just walk around on edge. It's wait, if I was around certain people, I knew the church was going to come up. And I was locked and loaded. I'm like, if they see anything about this, about this, about this, I'm ready to pounce. I'm going to rock their world and tell them how much they don't know. And then I'd walk around arrogant. Like, I don't know if I should talk about this because I know it's going to rock their world. And I don't want to be the one responsible. for disrupting someone's mental health and their peace when I tell them this, this, and this, about the thing that means the most to them. I walk around arrogant like that. I'm like, "I'm interested in this." And I look back at it now. I'm like, "What in the world?" Well, that was my reality. Yeah, it's so weird. And if we dig down to the root, what do you think the root? Because I think a lot of it, and I think this is why I was so fascinated with you pointing out my journey. I was like, "Cheese, Jeff has got me nailed." It's because you've seen it. You've been there. You witnessed it. And you've been through your own like ebbs and flows. But it really, I think, if I look back at all, anytime I was vengeful or passive, like coming off aggressive, it was a kind of a form of passive aggressiveness of just like making a statement of trying to find validation. I'm like, there's a legitimate reason why I'm having a struggle here. And the community at large doesn't seem to think it's a legitimate reason. And you're shouting out to your community, "I'm in pain. I have this thing going on, or your spouse, or your bishop, or whoever it is." And they just look at you like, "Why would you ever do that? Why would you ever have this pain?" And that makes you actually dig deeper. That makes you actually go, "Now I have to go and show a different reason why I'm in this position that I'm in." And that's why I look back, will, on our interview with Phil, who's my pharmacist. And we're in the middle of conversation. And I just blur something out. What about Joseph Smith's polygamy? What about a million 14-year-old girl? And it's all of a sudden, the number where did that come from? Poor Phil, he's not expecting. Intrusive thoughts. Me too. Just that. Because to me, at that moment, it was a representation of so many people just feeling like, this is kind of a thing, isn't it? That Joseph Smith married a 14-year-old girl, but the community's like, "Look at it. You're crazy for even thinking that that's weird." You say the community at large, but Casey, you've created a community of people that, if you were to meet all these anonymous cyber people that follow you, they would be your people. And they do empathize. And they have had the ebbs in the flows of anger and aggression, and have felt alone. So it sucks for you that the world needs, they need people like you, that are going to say it out there, that are going to be honest, that are going to say stupid things that they're like, "Fill cute, Mike, delete later." But I like that you don't delete them, because it's something. I'm actually glad to hear you say that, because I've been like, "I want to just reach out to will and say, we can delete this one, this one, and this one." I don't want to. And I have to say also the community. I'm just going to say, I get just as many messages about will, people behind the scenes saying, "I relate to what Will said, because I'm still in the church, and I'm still in just the fact that Will is willing to have a conversation, and to bring a tone that is not accusatory, or pointing fingers are saying, you're crazy for thinking this, makes people who are listening, who are believers, just trying, maybe they have a spouse or somebody, it makes them feel not crazy as well." Yeah, that's a beautiful role that you're able to fill. For sure, Will. Yeah, because going back to you deleting things, or having the thought to delete things, my instant gut reaction is, don't you dare, because somebody is somewhere on the journey that they can relate to you at that point. We're not all right with sitting where Kasey McFarland is. We, somebody's going to come across this platform, and they're going to relate to Kasey two years ago, and they're going to relate to Will six months ago. So you're putting this out there, this long-term view into your thoughts and your view on religion, and so many different things, travel, art, people, all of that, and people get to pick up where they are, right? And hopefully learn something from the community. Yeah. Because you don't want to stay where you are. I think the beautiful part is, if you have the opportunity to see this as a whole, it's beautiful because you didn't stay in the dark spots. And when it was happy and good, you've hung onto that as long as you could, because that doesn't stay forever either. Yeah, nothing about us. People need to know that. Where do you, so Kasey, you've had all these ebbs and flows. Yeah. And you know, you texted me a small text, and you're like, hey, me and Jeff are getting together. Like, I don't think you said the word season, but like, I was like, oh, I'm feeling this from Kasey. Like, maybe there's an end and a beginning in the near future. Yeah. Like, in the biggest way I can ask, like, where are you right now? In terms of like, okay, yeah. So one of the things that I think people don't get to see behind the scenes, like, I'll just give you kind of an example. Like when we interviewed MacArthur Krishna, that's an episode. I'm like, we, MacArthur and I talked for two hours after that conversation. She's like, did I offend you? I remember that. And I was like, did I offend you? Because we had a little bit of a, just like a little exchange. And she's, she's very animated. And I'm very animated, you know, and I'm just bringing that up because MacArthur, we're, I'm doing a trip to Italy with her in the spring. Like, I need to have people like that in my life. Like MacArthur pushes me to think differently. And I, and I really like that. But where I'm at right now, um, after going to the living school, the thing that the living school did to me, um, was it allowed me to see people Richard Roar, Brian McLaren, Barbara Holmes, all these people who came from evangelical background or Catholic or Baptist or African roots. They all went through a faith crisis. And they all came out on the other end, not bitter. So when you see, when Jeff, when you see that I'm like, I'm not, I still have fire. Like I just discovered something last week that blew my mind that I wanted to share, do an entire episode on that was like, some roots that I'm, of, uh, the free mason's, this whole thing that I found out this whole thing. This is so fascinating. They want to share. But I'm like, I don't want to burst people's bubbles sometimes too, but, but I feel like this, I feel like I, my testimony is that nobody has a monopoly on truth. Yes. And so I, when I, I went to church, actually, when I text you, will after we had this, we did that big, I'm all over the place with this, but a potlock, a potlock. We had a potlock and will and I, and I just, after that, I just snapped. I kind of just had this moment where like, I don't know if I belong. I'm trying to belong. And I love Patrick Mason and Chad Ford and I, and these guys are so, I look up to them and I, they're good friends. And I'm like, I, and I just had this thing. I say, and at the time, I was like, maybe, maybe we'll need to just do like promote peace or just like doing a big music festival or something that doesn't, we're not directly talking about peace because I'm actually not really good at that. I'm actually still angry. I still have stuff flowing up in me and I don't feel, I don't want to just be silent about that. Yeah. But I'm trying to answer your question. I have so many thoughts coming in, but I actually went back to church for a little bit and just because I'm, I wanted to just see the people. And where I am at is that I've, I've just little by little separated the institution from the people in my brain and my heart. Yeah. And so I feel like I'd like to go every once in a while, like, once a month, I go to church. And, but I've, but my belief has gone the opposite direction. Like, I don't, I just don't believe that like I had somebody come up to me a couple of weeks ago, and they're like, we can't tell where you're at. And I'm like, well, that's, they can't tell what, are you a believer? Are you in? You out? You know? And I'm like, and I kind of like, we need to put you in a box. That's what they want. So bad. I'm like, I'm everywhere, but, but I did say I'm not a believer. I'm just, that's the truth. I'm not, I don't, I believe in God. I believe in a big God. I don't believe God has like chosen one place. And that label, one label. And just said, this is the only thing out there. My testimony is I've been to like 50 different religions. I've been to like 5th almost 40, I've been over 40 countries. Yeah. I've seen a lot of different things and you kind of go, I'm seeing patterns everywhere. These are just human. We, it seems like everybody thinks they they need to declare themselves the favorite and it's just that seems to be an interesting piece of human nature. Oh my gosh you guys so Liam my oldest he's going on a mission in August and we went on a long run the other day and I think he I think he needed to get some stuff out because it was like three in the afternoon and I was like all right it's been so hot lately. Yeah you're hitting a hundred and you guys oh my gosh yeah we were dying so anyways I was like yeah let's let's go so so we take off we're running and he's like um dad tell me exactly what you do and don't believe and I was like oh what a great question yeah it's interesting what a question and I was like man I am like this is on the spot and he's he's he's asking it in the context of him trying to get a baseline of what he does and doesn't believe right and you know I constantly compare myself to Liam and Liam compares himself to me but I'm like dude when I went on a mission I was black and white. 100% I was totally black right Liam is very nuanced he's been exposed to stuff like he went to a rated our movie in the theater he saw the Odyssey like I didn't do that before I was in his own thing anymore. No no it's just you know and I'm like yeah that's great Liam like you're obeying the spirit of the law like what you bring in and I think that's great so he just he looks at things so differently and you know he was like I don't know if I believe things and you know if we want to get specific I'd rather have him on here but like it was basically like in summary of the conversation we both agreed that like while we may not be able to sell 100% of the church two people and like he's gonna have a hard time preaching everything about the church he's like I can do the gospel of Jesus Christ he's like that's gonna help anyone and everyone and I'm like do that buddy like you can do that you can you like you can go for confidently being like I can be a missionary I can sing him I can talk about Jesus and I'm like I think if you just keep it around the gospel like it'll be pretty simple yeah and he was like okay I can do that you know I think he's got I think he has these deep conversations with other friends that are going on missions yeah the beautiful things kids talk man yeah yeah yeah but yeah while while the black and white thing was so much easier to hold it mentally yeah I think he'll be able I think this generation will be able to help more people live better whatever that is I was like preach Marcus Arraileus preach the old golden preach Jesus right like you're gonna you're gonna help people see I feel like myself years ago I'm chomping the bit I'm like yeah but what about this but what about this you know because there are so many what about yeah but at the end of the day it's about Christ right I just had I hesitate to share this share it because what you just shared was like a tender moment with with your son and I think that that will be a conversation in a moment that I hope you guys appreciate for years I hope so like that's a cool moment that so many people don't create a setting where that can happen so number one good job thank you and but I've yeah with with my journey with religion I have wanted so badly for the last 20 years to be able to ignore things and believe mm-hmm like you say Casey people are like why would you I choose not to think about Joseph Smith marrying a 14 year old right how yeah I would love to also but literally how and these these different things that I I just think I wish my life my marriage the last 20 years could have been so much or so different right I almost said so much more beautiful but so so different some of the conflict a lot of the conflict most of the conflict has a bit been about religion in my marriage the last 20 years mm-hmm and I wish so badly that I could not see things yeah but I do right but I do and I can't ignore them so what I'm getting at is about six seven eight months ago I don't know handful of months ago I'm doing some work I was hanging some blinds in this guy's house that lives in my ward just a couple blocks away you know I'm Mike Mcnight yeah yeah Mike say freaking stud yeah love night yeah he's an ulcer marathon runner anyway he's a beast yeah yeah like the best in the world yeah 200 plus miles yep yeah anyway I hope it's okay that I bring him up but I think he'll be fine I mean his house and he's like hey uh we need somebody to teach elders quorum Mike is saying this yeah to me yes I love this keep talking and I'm I just kind of laughed I'm like yeah cool story you might want to ask a couple people about where I'm at you know and he's like I'm interested tell me where you're at and I said Mike I don't want to offend you you're such a good dude you've got a great family you know and he's like Jeff I'm asking you I want to know and I said well tell you my my number one biggest issue with the church and I walk him through it you know and I'll say it on here what one of my one of my biggest core issues is the temple yeah and I think if Christ was real if Christ is the Savior of the world and died for my sins and then some organization comes along and says well kind of you can be forgiven of your sins and you can live in heaven if you follow Christ and you go to the temple and you do this and you do that to me it lessens the gifts that Christ gave us yeah I said any organization that's going to lessen the gifts of Christ I struggle with yeah and he's like they make it we make it conditional yeah and he's like oh okay you know he's like well cool story uh I need you to be an Ellis Corm teacher and I said man I said 15 18 20 years ago whatever it was that was my last calling that I had and I had to call the elders Corm president like 10 30 at night and tears one night like I can't do it I can't I'm trying so hard to prepare this lesson I do not believe it I cannot stand up in front of the quorum and say these things that are in the book this was the decade to go Jeff yeah okay and so I said that was the last calling that I had and you're asking me to do it again and he's like what you know he's just like uh you know I get it realized what I was asking you and I said but I want to do it I said I want to do it because I miss the community yeah I there's so much value in having people in your life and I don't know the man in my neighborhood because I've isolated myself from church I built this I built this community with bonded brotherhood right yeah and I have people that mean the world to me in in that group but I'm still longing I've been all this all this time wishing that I could believe wishing I could not see things that I do and I said Mike here's the deal I said you might want to call the bishop or the state president or I'm not the sick president or the the elders quorum president and just give him a caveat Jeff will do this if I said I will do it if I can talk about community in Christ if anything else comes up I can't honestly teach it so and if you come back that the answer is Jeff probably not right now I'm not gonna be offended I get it totally cool and I mean yeah and he texted me back he's like you're in I'm like a great great so I did yeah so I went back and I once a month I was teaching elders this is this is okay really really yeah very very once a month once a month yeah so it's like a great calling yeah right and I was excited about it and I went in there and I asked questions that I don't think people had thought of right and it was a little bit spiteful a little bit vengeful and a hundred percent real right I asked questions to the elders quorum like who was comfortable in Christ presence and we had that conversation right who in our community right now that is a fringe part of society would be probably the only ones feeling comfortable with Christ interesting right because he's loving he's unconditional and I brought up specific groups and was met with stone wall silence until after class I wish I could have been there until after class people come up like thank you for saying that oh my god I have always this person this person this person in my life that is true I'm gonna go have that conversation with them. And I'd encourage them, next time would you please speak up? The group needs to hear that, right? Because they're not the only person thinking of it. It's multiple people. Yeah, I'm like, so speak up. Thank you for saying that. I'm glad that something I said may be of value to someone that you love. But next time you're in a situation, whether it's an elders' quorum, or whether it's at lunch with some co-workers and something comes up, speak up. Speak up because your thoughts matter. Your opinions matter. Speak up. Don't let the conditioning of this is uncomfortable. We're not supposed to say this, we're not supposed to think about that. Don't let that stop you because what you're thinking and feeling is real and just as valid as anybody else. Maybe more so because it's less conditioned, right? So speak up. Anyway, I did that for four or five, six months. And then I got to the point, I cannot. I cannot. So I threw in the towel. But I made friends with people I made friends with man in the neighborhood. I'm still part of the group me. You know, like if people need help, you know, like help you move, I'll help you do whatever. Selfishly, I've gained some community out of putting myself out there because again, I want to believe. I just don't. I'm the same. At the end of the day, if I get struck by lightning right now and I meet God in 60 seconds from now, he's going to be like, Jeff, I gave you the ability to think and reason. It led you astray, but I gave it to you and I'm proud of you that you used it. He's not going to say that. I'm going to say it absolutely. I'm making that story up, right? It's like I say it to make myself feel better because I feel guilty that I'm not in the church. Yeah. Like really, that's the core of where that comes from. And I know that. I know that. But it's like, okay, do you feel like after that four or five months, once a month teaching, do you feel like there's more mutual understanding? People understanding you, you understanding them? No. Tell me why. Because that's what I would hope for. I was hopeful for that too. I think that, well, let me tell you what data for me. I was struggling and I asked a direct question to the entire world. I want you to ask, I want you to say it because you told me this and I would thought this is really important. I asked the entire Koram, we're taught that Christ can have these major effects on our life. He can take away sin, sadness, all of these things. Make your burden light. I said, I've struggled. I've never felt that. We're sitting in here as a core of man, believers in Christ. Let's have a discussion about times in your life that Christ has lightened your load and didn't speak for several minutes and neither did anybody else. No one could testify or share a personal experience of where Christ had lightened their load. What the heck? Not one. Myself included. And it made me, and I asked that question thinking this is going to be beautiful. I asked him, I said, I struggle with this. This is something like I believe in Christ, but I don't know why because I haven't felt what I'm told I'm supposed to feel. But you guys have, you guys talk about it. So let's share this. Let's build each other up. I need this. Nothing. Yeah. And I don't know. And you look I'm thrown in the towel. I don't know what to make of it. Right. I do. I do think that's an interesting thing. Yeah. It could have been that they're on the spot. It could have been. This is a sacred moment. I'm not comfortable sharing it here. Like it could be a lot of things. It's kind of like this kind of like thing in the ether that like we say it, but we don't really ever like, where's the measurement? Like where's the, you know, you guys? Did you guys watch Parks and Iraq? Oh, yeah. I love this. I had this thought just did you never day watch? Okay. Ron Swanson had this ex wife named Tammy had two two ex wife named Tammy. He wanted Tammy to and he always, he made a video. He's like, if you watch this, if Tammy one comes back into your life or something and it's like, you need to run from this woman, you know, because he was possessed by this. I had the thought the other day, this is what the cycle that I keep going, I keep going back to church. And it's like Tammy for me. I'm like, expecting the community to embrace me. I'm expecting like there to be this, this moment where the, I'll just give you kind of an example. This is last couple of weeks in back east. There was this, this church that hundreds of people and a lady comes, I don't know if you saw this Jeff, we shared this back and forth. This lady comes in and she points to the preacher and says, you guys did not, you guys knowingly knew a pedophile, you put him on the voluntary staff and he abused my child. And it turns out that he'd been, he'd abused multiple people. And the entire congregation blew up just like, you did what? You let this guy, this wolf in our midst with our children and that church is getting like hammered. Oh, man. Well, just last week, the same thing happened in LDS church, two women, a woman got up with a pulpit and said, you guys let this man in our midst and he has abused 48 children. And this is verified. What? Yeah, you know, I know. I didn't know it was that though. And, and, and what do they do? Somebody strikes up the band and sort of singing, I believe in Christ to drown out this woman's voice. What? And an old man, another lady stands up. She's at the pulpit. She's, she, in the bishop comes up. This is not the place to be talking about this. She's like, yes, it is because if you don't have it here, then where? Right? If you can't, I've never heard one discussion talked about abuse in church ever, ever. So where are you supposed to, you have? It was, and it was, it was a, it was really interesting actually. It was not the reception. I thought it would, because I was like, wow, this is really healthy. And I remember because I was like, I'm going to present some stuff and then we're going to talk and he was not even 10 minutes into like what he presented. And this guy in the Elder Scroller Presidency was like, where is this going? And I was like, oh my gosh. Right. Someone feels really uncomfortable talking about something really important. Right. Like this is a chronic problem we have in the church. Like I, I can tell you probably five people, I know personally, who have been afflicted by this. But they all end up becoming the victim. And so what happens? This lady gets up to speak. An old man actually tackles her. Tackles her. One of the ladies that got up and they're just. That was the lady that pulled out the camera. Oh, oh, is that what it was? Yeah. Oh, the lady sitting in the, in the cues pulled out her phone and some guy like tackled her to take her phone away to not be recording in the chapel. Well, that whole thing was like a 70 year old man. Oh my gosh. My point is, I hope, I really hope somebody in that congregation was like, I want to listen to what this woman has to say. Like she's here bearing her soul about, she's obviously gone through other avenues and not been heard. And I always come back expecting my community is going to be like, we're give, send this bastard and put him in front of us. And we're going to vlog this man. Sure. And it's the opposite. And it happens time and time again. Like I literally went to church with a couple of Christmas's ago with some loved ones. And this person had just got out of jail. And for heinous 23 counts, 23 counts of abuse. And they were hiding behind the atonement. And they stayed after hugging, hugging children, talking with kids. And I took a picture of it because I was just like, this is not okay. We have to draw a line of sort of protecting kids. So I guess I'm going to come back around to this question, yes, merely because I cut me off garlic thinking about where am I right now? Where am I? I am right now is my whole premise has been like, to me, I see religion as, I don't see this true or not true. And that has been the deconstruction I've done over the last, whatever. I just see actions like this as the action that these people like try to silence these people talking about their children be invictimized as being untrue, as bearing the wrong fruit. It's not, it's like that is not helping somebody, helping a community. And I see this other community doing it, doing it right. They're like, we're going to freaking hold our people accountable. And so I've seen that, I don't, religion to me is a tool like to help you overcome ego. to help you get, to get, bring down the illusion of who you think, the mask of the story, the small stories you've been telling yourself. So I see Mormonism as being one place that does that for a lot of people. People have the capacity and Mormonism to like become better and shed their, shed themselves. A lot of people are doing it. And other people just, they're not doing it in our community. And so I'll be honest with you, when Jeff Strong came out with this book on torn, I was like, "Cal, I don't even have to do this anymore." The guy just, he did it in a way better way than I've ever been able to say it. He did it with data. Yeah. He did it with data and he's like, I'm gonna tell the truth. As an active member, only 6% of the people who leave the church do it because they want a different lifestyle or sin. Yeah. And that is, but the community large won't grab a whole of that that's a lie we've been telling ourselves for two centuries. That people are leaving. Okay. Yeah. People are leaving because they're sinful because they're like this started with all of our counteree. Like, you know, and so. Where it wasn't that long ago was taught in general conference. It is every single time. It's insinuated. It's implied. It's, and what Jeff Strong did was he stood up and said, actually, my kids, my three kids who left the church are not lost. And that's been what I've been trying to say in this podcast, passive aggressively, not the most effective way all the time. I've been saying, pointing at the people who are leaving and saying, they're not leaving why you think they're leaving. These people have valid reasons and they have spiritual lives and they're still spiritual people and they're amazing people. And we have got to stop. Yes. We got to stop this freaking story. See, it's pride in the institution. It's nationalism. Yeah. But it's not nationalism, right? But it's pride in the institution instead of the humanity. Right. Yeah. We get hung up in protecting anything that might make me feel any sort of way, but 100% beautiful and comfortable about the organization that I belong to. That's my identity. My identity is this organization. So if you talk about about the organization, I'm tied to it. It's my identity to you. I understand the pushback. That's lazy thinking. Yeah. It's very lazy thinking, but it's so common. And so I look at these, these two instances that you talked about, one in the LDS church and one in some other church where very similar ladies stood up and reported abuse and that were received differently. And they were received so differently. So is that the institution's fault or is it the individual sitting there, their fault and how they reacted? Not the institution. I think it's both. OK. Because we make confidence. We're told like you don't speak ill. You don't do anything. So there's this-- Even if it's true. Fear. So people will-- they'll defend the institution or the leaders before-- and even like you think of Brad Wilcox, who-- for two or three years was giving that same speech until someone recorded it. Interesting. And by the way, me and my family, I would pull it up with my kids watching the entire thing to demonstrate to my kids what spiritual manipulation looks like. Jeepers. And I'm not-- but not a single adult in two, three years stood up and said, what he is saying right now is racist. It's offensive. It's inaccurate. They just flocked. Crazy, huh? And that's why-- that's where I feel this disconnect with my community sometimes, where I'm just like going. I actually love the people. And I separate the two. The same way I go, like I took pictures of a Russian girl the other day. I don't think she's a Valvlatimer potent. So I separate institutions from people because people are just so different than the institutions. I see actually a bigger divide happening right now than I've seen, frankly, because if you go online and you look at the growing number of apologists who are speaking out, they're vilifying people who leave the church. They really are. And more aggressive, huh? And I'm like, your paradigm is not the right paradigm. Like I heard I was in a meeting with Tim Chavez. And he said, for a period of time, Mormon stories for like four years was saved my life. Interesting. And it has its place. And also, so do the soldiers in the very black and white thinkers and so do the progressives. And anyway, speaking of-- well, my point is I think that there's like this growing divide happening. And it's all over YouTube. It's all over Instagram. People start by saying, oh, this pisses. This will make an ex-mormon mad. Yeah. And you're like, dude, why? Why are we-- the point of religion is to bring you closer to God. And it's not happening for some people in this community. And I actually don't think-- I thought to myself, man, Jeff Strong's book would have been so good to have 10, 15 years ago. It would have helped me so much. And I'm like, no, people aren't ready for it. I needed to be angry. Yeah. I needed to go through my angry phrase or else I wouldn't have listened to it. Yeah. I had to be ready to listen to it. But I also think that we have had enough time with people leaving to say, you know what? Actually, Jeff Low, that guy-- he's a really good guy. I actually believe what Jeff Strong is saying in his book this saying that people who have left or not lost because I know Jeff Low. Yeah. Or I know. Or I know so and so. So they needed-- I think we need to-- I guess the first time anyone's ever said anything so close to that. Yeah. You know what I mean? And that's the free-con truth. There are Jeff Low's everywhere out there. We walk around like-- I'm just-- They're not teaching elders' corn, though. Like, there are Jeff Low's everywhere. I think what makes you different is that you will speak. You will speak up. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know why, but I do. I honestly am still grasping, right? Maybe I'm so desperate, like I'm still haven't found my peace. Yeah. I think back to something that you're-- There's my sit-in on this podcast a long time ago, when she would sit in church and fill judged. And I'll probably butcher it, but she said something along the lines of, oh, I know that lady's judging me. Oh, this lady saw me do this and this, and then she's judging me. And then your wife realized, oh, I'm judging them. And I catch myself thinking, specifically of that conversation that was had on this podcast, that your wife said. I think of that often. Yeah. I think, OK, I'm playing the victim here. What's my role here? It comes down to individuality. It comes down to, I'm responsible for me. I'm responsible for my peace. I can point fingers. I can be upset. I can see injustices. But what does that mean about me that bothers me? Yeah. It all comes down to personal. We have to, we can point fingers. I can say, I'm upset. My life is this and this because of the influence that the church had on me and my youth and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Awesome. Great. Other people were abused as kids. Terrible. But at some point, you have to say, I am responsible for my peace. What does it mean about me that this bothers me? And how can I get past it? I'm here living my life, my journey. If my kids, I tell my kids all the time, in my son's wedding speech a year ago, I mentioned this, you don't need to follow my path. You're living your life, your journey. Be responsible for your life. Don't point fingers. Right? Yeah. It's so hard to do. So hard to do because we all have baggage. We all have past. We all have things that we could point the fingers at and say, I'm not where I want to be because of this or because of that. But I'm here for me. I'm living my journey. And I think that we need to remember as a whole, if you want to grow, you have to look at yourself. At some point, you have to make a conscious decision. Like when I was angry at the church for years. And then one day, I woke up. It was literally one day, like turning on a light switch. I thought, this is causing me more, more harm. Being angry is causing me, Jeff Low, harm. I have to make it. I have to let it go. And then I then I had to start working on that. So where I'm at right now, I have so many questions. But I'm looking at things. I go through my day and when something bothers me, when I hear something about the church or about, I think about something in my path. or whatever I think, okay, what is it about me that that upsets me? And how can I get past that? That's a very, that's a very, what is it about me that bothers me that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old? Well, maybe it's because I still feel lonely and at some point in my life, the community and the church brought me happiness and value. And I'm still tied to that. But there still is, it brought value to me. And so the idea that something of that institution that I valued and brought me value, something about it is so terribly wrong, there's a dissonance there. Yeah. And that sits rough in me. Yeah. So I've got to work through that. Do you think the church could handle those things differently that, and it would make you feel better? Ooh, that's a good question. I do. Maybe, maybe, maybe, yeah, probably maybe. I know what where you're going, right? It's like if they ever admitted we did this incorrectly, we caused harm. Yeah, I think that would be healing for a lot of people. I do too. Where I'm at, I don't need an apology. Yeah, that's the part where you get to. From my abusers in the past or from any organization, I don't need an apology. But years ago, there would have been an enormous value. Well, because we'd be, so yes, it would, it would, absolutely. And I think it would draw more people to the softness, the humanity of the organization, because humanity is soft. And not in a bad way. Humanity feels, right? Yes, not black and white. We lack vulnerability in the church. My vulnerability would, I think, be a big thing for people to just say we actually, for leaders in our church to be vulnerable would be a big huge. Yeah, it was I have relief for everybody. But we don't usually call vulnerable leaders. We call people that tow the line and follow the book and follow the rules. And I mean, were you at the Patrick Mason book club? Man, I wish we would have, as before my time to you before we, yeah. So, you know, Patrick Mason comes to the book club. We have all these people that are leaving or have left the church. 95% of the audience, like 40 people, was left. Yeah, exactly. And so many people, not on the record, after that conversation, said things like, you know, Patrick or my bishop, I'd still be on a church. If I would have heard that five years ago, it really would have changed my trajectory. If the church would say that over the pulpit at general conference, I might come back. Like this type of thing. That's putting, that's no, no, I don't like that way of thinking. What's putting, that's putting your life, your trajectory in somebody else's hands. We have to be responsible for that. Yeah, but it's addressing the dissonance. Okay, okay. I see that. And so you're right, but there's also like, we can't be responsible for having other people dictate how we feel. I agree with that. However, can we just say we really screwed up with blacks in the priesthood? Yeah. Actually, polygamy's not doctrinally sound. Yeah. Oh, we were lit, the church was living in sin and we really screwed this up. Yes, Brigham had a bunch of distilleries and sorry about that. That's confusing and misleading. Like put it on the freaking table and say it and like the church doesn't ever do it. That's the big challenge. And that's why if there's anybody who I struggle with, like that I get into a room and the hair on the back of my neck goes up, it's a polygis who cannot acknowledge her, who would make an excuse for bad behavior. Yeah. I say it does. And in politics too, I'm like, can you just say that your guy did something dumb? Yeah. And then he also did something good over here too. But the reason I started like the concept of paradox was new to me. I started this for my own healing because I was all like going, I can't stand Joseph Smith. I can't stand these guys. And so paradox became to me like going, well, I know they're not all bad. I know that there's some, it's a, it actually paradox gave, when I let room and I gave space for there to be also good, compassion rushed in. And when you, like there's a concept in Buddhism called emptiness and that's like you empty your mind of the thoughts and the meaning you've given something. And it's a practice that is very difficult. Joseph Smith, he's dot, dot, dot, right. And then all of a sudden you go, I'm going to wipe that clean and then come out from an entirely different angle that now inevitably compassion rushes in. And that's the, it's wild. So to me, this has been a process of like, and I'll say for anybody who wants to expedite the process, start a podcast, start like because start publicly journaling, start publicly spewing your journey onto the world because what happens is you say something like, she was that wrong? Then you walk away and you're like, did I, do I really think what I just said out loud? And it's a mirror. It's a mirror. And it gives you this self reflection, you're going like, I actually, I'm going to rethink the way I think about that. And sadly, oftentimes that's still stuck in people's craw. Like, oh, he thinks this or he's that or whatever. And that might be the only episode they listen to. But that's just part of it. But I genuinely think that this is a, this is a, a honing of ourselves are getting rid of illusions to what we think is true and stories that we tell ourselves, which is really, to me, when it really boils down to it, what I would love to see in the community, the true sin of all of this, which is the sin of pride. And, and you see it on both sides, you see it. Like the apologist, it's a, it's a sin of pride when there's pointing a finger at an ex-mormon and saying, these guys, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, they're not seeing people as humans. They're seeing them as us versus them. And the way me and my wife thrive in our marriage is because it took me a long period of time to just go, we actually have two different spiritual paths. But we have one goal. We're trying to get rid of illusion. We're trying to get rid of the parts of us that we know aren't true. That's a very common thing. In our family, I saw the writing on the wall. All of my kids are going in different directions spiritually. But the one thing I try to bring them back around it too is you need to self-reflect and find out where your stories are false. And it's the entire basis of Hinduism is trying to get rid of illusion. And the whole entire premise is that you, at some point, achieve mocksha, which means liberation. And I see that if you're hating somebody, if you're despising somebody, if you see terrible traits in somebody, you are in an illusion. And unless you're feeling like the pure love of God, you're in an illusion because every single human being, if we really saw them at their root for who they are, we wouldn't have these issues. So freaking beautifully said. Right. So that's so yes, yes, to every bit of that. What I want to do, when I go to church, what I want to hear is how do we get rid of, how do we get rid of pride? Like whether you're in or out of the church, how do we get rid of these parts of us that are tribal, that are whatever, but sometimes it's like a reinforcement of the tribalism. It is. And I just googled like, what is the organization of Hinduism? It has no single founder, no central governing authority, no pope. It operates as a decentralized, diverse family of religions. And I think it's very vast. That is very vast. But the origin and we are the, this church is the opposite of that. We are like, I'm like, we're not a cult, but close. No, we, we, we're not a cult. It's hard. Yeah. But let me tell you, it is a thing. I want to do an entire episode on cult because we are not a cult until, until I just talked with somebody the other day in my neighborhood, just gave a lesson. And they just said, our, our, our, our gay child came to us and was like, if you keep preaching to me, we cannot no longer be friends. We cannot longer have this relationship. And this person said, I didn't even hesitate. I knew where my allegiance lied. Are you kidding me? And no one in the, it was the church is getting pressed in over their child. So, so this is, that's a cult like behavior. That is. And there's literally scriptural evidence that would, that would say they're doing the wrong thing. There's, there's, it's in the scriptures. And then somebody else would have somebody come, David Archeletta's mom or somebody would come and say I'm gay or a whatever and and they would say, you know what? The church is a tool. The church is not, it's a means to an end. I'm not choosing the church over you and that is not a cult like behavior. So I don't see the church as a cult. I see the church like cult like behavior within the church. Does that make sense? - Yeah, 100%. - That's very gracious and I think it's pretty accurate. - And because we allow it to be because of lazy thinking. - Right, you know, I can't, I'll reference it, but honestly so far distance from this stuff that there was, you guys can maybe speak to this more. There was a conference talk or something where people that left the church were referred to as lazy learners or something like that. - President Nelson. - I look at that, this conversation right now, that example you just gave me? That's lazy learning. That's following the ideas of the culture instead of building your own personal relationship with Christ, Christ is love, right? I hate to call it out, but like that is. - And so sad. The fact that we don't look at our own individual role in our lives and we're so attached to the organization that that becomes our identity, our personal identity. Like I've referenced a couple times here, that's lazy. - Do you think, I'm sorry, I just can't get over this. Parents saying I chose the organization over my-- - It blew my mind. - So no one in the class said-- - I just want parents, both parents. - Really? - Yes. - Do you think anyone's-- - I do too. - I wanna go give this kid a hug. - I do too. Like all of your dad, like-- - I've actually invited these people to come to the, 'cause we host LGBTQ meetings for LDS kids and they're like, we're not ready for that at this time. I'm like, okay. - What about the parents though? Has anyone said, hey, that's bullshit? - I wish, but like they, the, what they said and was that they bumped into one of the state presidency members and they said, you know, you're, you're, you're ceiling in the temple is strong enough to bring all your children back to the church. This is the true. - It's false hope to bring them back to the church. - I'm like, it's just not going to happen. Like, so I'm like, that's-- - Yeah, that's just a fake. - It's just a fake, like a lie. - That's arrogance. - It's like, those are the things, like, 'cause I went to church a couple times and those are the things that I'm just like going, oh, I just, I have a hard time. I struggle with that, right? And I think going back to, I actually do think within the book of Mormon, we have the premise of the basic premise of, of the concept of Hinduism, which is, Lehigh is waiting through illusions, they're waiting through the myths of darkness. It literally is like, you think it's reality, but it's not reality. And then he finally gets to this tree and he, what is the fruit representative of? The pure love of God. That nothing is less, like, that's when you know you're not in illusion. When you can feel the pure love of God for your child or for your spouse or for anybody and you go, okay, I'm not in illusion. I don't have all these little triggers punching me in places that I've wrapped my identity around. That's the goal of religion. So that's why I say, I know there are people in, that's why defend people inside of Mormonism because I watched my grandma get to that point. I've never seen anybody love anybody like my grandma as she was as Mormon as the day is long, right? And so I've seen people in the community achieve greatness. We have so many of them in Mormonism. My old-scale leaders, I can think of tons of them. And I wanted to defend them. Yeah. As this is a legitimate place to stay and let that happen. And but if it's happening and it becomes tribalism and you're like, well, I'm here because I just need to say I'm better than somebody else or I'm chosen or whatever, now you are in illusion. And so paradox to me is like the antidote to so many things that we deal with in our community. Like paradox is like, if somebody is so dead set on hating Donald Trump, so bad, for example, paradox is, well, maybe there's stop and take a breath. Maybe he did something that might actually be benefiting your life. That's a hard thing to ask yourself. But when you pull yourself out of tribalism and go, this person's also here, a child of God going through things, it allows you to get rid of a lot of the anger and a lot of the stuff that you are dealing with. Yes. Yeah. And that's why I keep bringing up the individual, I'll be part of it because when we can do that to ourselves, we see other people have to, we see the humanity, right? I look at Donald Trump and I'm like, keep poor sucker. What happened to you and your kid? And by the way, and I think you should fight to can now against the yeah, he's doing the damage. Agreed. Don't just be, don't be naive, but I look at him with a little compassion, be like something happened to you. Like, why are you this way? It's not my business, but I see once I learned that I'm responsible for me. And I have built my circle with people like you, you two, that are beautiful and bring so much value to me. And I can see the value in the church, like you've talked about, 100%, you cannot help, but see other people that way. Yeah. You know, your ex, your examples of, I found, we could, we could go on and on about so many positive things that have come about because of the church. Yeah. It's not all bad. So that's the part of it, right? That's the nuance part. As you were thinking about that, I was thinking about my grandma. I'm thinking about my in-laws, you know, my wife's parents are that way. Like the purest, most loving, kind, dedicated people and their products of the church. And I'm, right. So it's like I, I've been there. I've been, if someone listening is the, the angry, in the angry phase, I cannot urge anybody. If you're angry about something in your life, I can't, I don't have strong enough language to find a way to get past it. It's keeping you, it's keeping you trapped. It is, but it's also part of the thing. It's part of it. It has to go through it, but don't allow yourself to stay there. I bumped into Maxine Hanks, who was one of the September six that was excommunicated by Boyd Kipak, right? He's the KC just bumps it. And I was, I was in a meeting with him. He built his circle. She told me, right? Yeah, she said, I had to go through, she said I had to play the heretic for 10 years. I had to play full out. I had to do her. She came back and got rebaptized. But she's, I, I needed to play the full out stage, right? But I wanted to kind of say something to the, we can flip the script here. And this is why we'll end here. But I just paradox also is the antidote for apologists who cannot see any bad in their leader. This is such a problem because what happens is they're, they're literally just saying, they're trying to defend somebody and they can't see that. Joseph Smith, maybe Smith, maybe cornered a 15 year old girl and, and made her feel like manipulated her into marriage. So the apologists need paradox as bad as anybody. The people on who have left need to say, there are actually so many good things I got out of this. And I got so many great things. And then the, the apologists need to acknowledge. If you can't acknowledge it, you're just pushing people away. Like the people who are like me, I don't want to talk to you. I like talking to Patrick Mason, because Patrick Mason will say, yeah, plug in me what they did was wrong. Racism was wrong. That's a, in fact, I'll just kind of say this, Jim Bennett who wrote the, the response to the C, a CES letter. He's got a great name for their podcast inside out. Love that name. But anyway, he, he wrote the response and the church came to him and said, um, this is like your response to this, the fact that you acknowledged that this, this and this was wrong and this happened was the number one reason people were coming back to the church. Yeah. I believe that's so deep. And I'm like, so you, if you're the apologists who are not listening to this, just know you're only, you're beating to the, you're own, there's one audience that's listening to you. And they're not the, you're not reaching the people that really need to be reached. And, and so, um, I have just looked at this entire concept of paradox is the antidote to the divide we have in our country. And I feel that divide inside myself more than anybody. I'm constantly ebbing and flowing between anger and joy and like feeling this intensity, like going, I can't stand Joseph Smith right now. And then the next day I'm like, dude, I just learned something about this guy that freaking kind of blew my mind. That's really wild. And it's all and having to, having grown up in a black and white community. It's been training on pion, we're pioneering this, this concept. That's the whole point we're pioneering this effort to kind of say, can we quit this? It either has to be this or has to be that and and that is just bound to be a journey and ups and downs and like so anyway, we can kind of end on that. But any last words you guys want to say? Man, that's been good for me. There's been a good conversation for me. Thank you guys. Like you guys mean the world to me. And I just want to go back to the conversation that we had last week that spurred this whole conversation. And if someone hasn't told you recently, thank you. Like you are making an enormous difference by being real, being loving, being kind, being understanding, the time and energy that you put into studying, the circle of people that you have built that you find yourself bumping into these freaking amazing people. You have built your circle. It's beautiful and thank you for for doing all of that and for sharing it with me. And I am I am one of I imagine thousands and thousands of people get so much value from what you put out. Maybe tens of tens. No. Well, you multiply however you roll the plot. How do you want? But I just want to tell you. Thank you. And I love your sincerity. And I really appreciate that. Yeah. And I've really appreciate will coming along this journey with me because I'm like I really have been like, no matter what I run in the skies reputation. But wills has been so willing and open and honest and and and that's so so important. But when it really boils down to it, this is this is mostly just our own personal journey being projected on and just maybe somebody will maybe somebody out there is going through the same thing. So week to week is just like, what am I going through right now? Sometimes it's interesting. Sometimes it's not. Yeah. You know, so and I hear myself say things like what what I've said in this conversation today, if I were to have heard someone say those things a couple of years ago, I would have instantly dismissed myself. And I'm fully aware of that. And I'm proud of myself for the growth, right? Yeah, you should be here and to fully mean when I say choose love and people for everything. And I mean that deeply like it's beautiful and it's people like you that have a lot and you too, well, you're just as much a part of this that have allowed me to realize I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. Because you spoke to something earlier about speaking. And when you speak your thoughts to people and then you like, Oh, well, that sounded different coming out loud than it has the last two months when I've ruminated in my head, speak, write it down. You know, find somebody to say these things that allowed to record it to yourself and listen back to it a month from now. Find a way to get your thoughts out because ruminating them in your head over and over is not healthy. No, we have to mean we have to get it out. No matter what it is, the good, the bad, the whatever, we have to have community. There's so much value in community. And that's why I missed the church. That's why Bonded Brotherhood exists. Like there's there that's why we're having this conversation. We have to we have to have community. We have to get out of our own heads. And see the joy and the value and the different thought processes that are out there. Will's beautiful mind, Casey's beautiful mind. And the more you put yourself out there and you surround yourself with people like you to, the more you can gain. And I just can't encourage people enough to choose love, choose people and freaking speak up. Speak up. I preach it all the time. You have to speak up. What you're thinking is valuable. Amen. Say it. Say it. Amen. And I think Casey, sometimes you, I don't think you've said this, but but I feel like you do have a little you feel responsible to make people think make something happen. And and not perform, but like, I would say, just keep being genuine and like ride the seasons and when you don't feel like doing something, don't do it. Yeah. But we'll all be looking forward to when that spark comes back and you have something to say. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. And that's great advice. No, it's true. It's like, yeah, it's, it's best like one of the things I think that's happened over the times. I've just like little by little, I've needed less and less validation. That's awesome. And that's been part of the process. I'm just like, Oh, no, I'm just kind of selling in and I've been so focused on travel that I've been like, well, you do need a passion. You know, it's kind of sad because like, who do we hear from in the world? We have, we hear from people that have an agenda, they're trying to sell something or they're tortured by something. Yeah. Those are the loudest people. Yeah. Um, and you know, so often I want to hear more from people who are at peace that don't need validation, but they're not putting a lot of content or writing books out there because they're at peace. They're not battling as much. And it doesn't grow as fast. It doesn't. I honestly was talking to somebody of the day that wrote or they're writing a book on peace and they're like they couldn't they had tried with seven different publishers and every publisher wanted something that was either on one side or the other. They need blood. And because it sales and the truth is, like, I honestly feel like if I would have we could grow this account like crazy if we picked a side. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's just the truth. Like it's sad. But it doesn't mean that. But there still needs to be a middle ground. And and I think the middle ground is where is where the peace is where you kind of go. You know what? Yeah. My dad does this. My mom does this. Whatever. And I'm like, I'm cool with it. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And I'm grateful for the living school that gave me. While I was at the living school, I was just like looking at these guys going, I'm not there. I'm still not there. But looking at Richard Rory going, knowing he went through the same thing I did for he was just had a face struggle for like 15 years. As a monk. As a priest. And so you're like, I look at him. I went, they seem to have this energy that they exude that is like calm and like not angry, not bitter. And I'm like, hmm, that's that's the goal I'm shooting for. And not I was there. Sometimes I am sometimes I'm not. But that's where I hope we all go. That's the direction we're going, whether you're in or out or whatever. So anyway, I love it. Thanks you guys. Love you guys. Love you to appreciate you guys coming in and and spewing a couple lines of wisdom to us today.