Chandra Wickramasinghe: Panspermia, and the Cosmic Origins of Life

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If my team goes that big, I get paid out instantly, even if they blow the lead later. Sounds familiar, Dale? Beth365. Winning is everything. Gamely problem call 1-800-Gambleer, 21-plus-only, must be physically located in Virginia. Tisensees apply, in app only. Nothing beats a bit of sunshine and a cool activity to match your mood, with billions of live cultures and calcium to support your digestive well-being. Enjoy activity every day for two weeks for a chance to win feel-good prices, including vouchers for luxury escapes and spa breaks, experience days and blue bookstays, plus, activity and money off coupons, pick up activity in your local Dublin store today, and scan to enter free chance to win. Tisensees apply. Tisensees apply. Wow, it's one of those weeks that have been a bit of a shocker and we have some sad news to present, but we're also helping the launch of the second annual Cosmic Summit. We'll be talking with Sean Drubb with Gramsey, a little bit later in the program. I want to make some sad news. Our own Jim Willis, Reverend Jim Willis has passed away. I got an email from his daughter Jan and he had been ill for a few weeks and had some emotional issues as well. And he passed this past Friday at his home in South Carolina. Jim was a friend and I was saddened to hear this and I was also shocked. And he brought a real wonderful perspective to a number of shows, a number of programs here on Earth Ancients and he appeared on Destiny a few times as well. And I first interviewed Jim in 2017 to get his opinion as a minister on an issue in the United States. He was wonderful and I subsequently invited him to return on a number of different times since that period. And we just had him on a few weeks ago. And so this is a shock. This is a shock to the Earth Ancients Destiny family. And we're going to remember Jim in a few days with a special edition of Earth Ancients where we can think we can reminisce about his impact on our lives, his work. And you've got to also remember he wrote over 20 books on everything from ancient civilizations to the most recent book near death experience. And wow, just a real big loss. And I'm sad to make the announcement. We're going to remember him again in about a week's time or sooner and have him have some reminiscing about Jim some of the things he was focused on and some of his multiple some of his topics. He was into so many different things. And man, a prolific writer as well. He did the oh, and he didn't just write books. He wrote a number of articles. He was very active right up to the end. And I don't know. It's kind of tough when people like that pass away because he's an important voice. He's an important voice. And he's left us with his his writings, which are good. But I'll certainly miss Jim. And I mentioned this on the Facebook page. Jim, I hope God, God is all that is is watching over you and helping you with your transition. And we'll remember you shortly with a Jim Willis special. He deserves at least that. So real sad news. Hey, June 15th is on its way. This is the beginning of the cosmic summit. Second annual cosmic summit. It sold out for tickets, but you can still go online at cosmic summit.com forward slash earth ancients and get a streaming media pass. It's $100 or two days and see this world class lineup of speakers Randall Carlson, Scott Walter, Robert Shock. One of my favorites, Praveen Mohan will be there. And I'm hoping to interview while he's in the States to get his update on some of these new temples he's found in India. But the program today is focusing on Shandra Wickram. See he is the foremost proponent of pan spermia. And we're going to be talking about some of his latest discoveries. And this new book that he just came out with with Dr. Milton Wainwright called Life Comes From Space, the decisive evidence. And this book just came out with amazing photographs of these what is known as biological entities. And it's funny because most scientists that aren't really familiar with it consider pan spermia just cellular material that's running on asteroids and meteorites that enter our atmosphere and land on Earth. And the thinking is that this is where we started. We started with as an amoeba and then grew and grew and grew and turned into a lizard and so forth. You know that story. I'm not sure I believe that. But Shandra is a firm believer that a lot of the viruses that we're dealing with including COVID is based on pan spermia cellular matter entering our atmosphere. And we talked about that last time. So, but I want to play a short excerpt from an interview I did in 2017 with Dr. Milton Wainwright where they actually took some of this material that had entered the stratosphere of our atmosphere. And he had it analyzed by two of his students to use their engineers who used electron microscopes to see the actual material itself and get a sense of what it was. This is Dr. Wainwright describing these metallic orbs or UAPs. Brought me the images again. I was absolutely stunned because there was a material oozing out of the sphere. And when we analyzed the material it was biological. It was carbon. It wasn't titanium. It was made of carbon and oxygen. A little bit of nitrogen. That is the signature for biology. Unless the signature we use with all these biological entities while we're trying to determine if the cosmic dust comes across as aluminium ion biological entities come across as carbon, oxygen and a little bit of nitrogen. Let me stop you right there just for a second. This biological entity, this metal or would you say that it's artificial because when I look at it, it's perfect round. Exactly. Well, yeah. When you say I say it's artificial, I suggested maybe because of course you can't be certain about these things. When we look to the surface, the surface was made of knitted material, knitted strands. A bit like what you might imagine a knitted wool jumper would look like. It was made of material which was like knitted strands. And this again, edaxed came up as biological. So what we have here is a sphere made of titanium, made of a little bit of metal, but mainly titanium. And inside that biological material, on the outside there's biological material. And so obviously, There are a number of suggestions to this, possibly this material was like a shell, a hermit crab in which it was a physical sphere that was somewhere else in the cosmos and the organism had crawled into it for protection, yeah, and crawled and developed on the outside of it. Or, of course, it could have been synthesized in that way or of course the organism could have secreted the titanium on the outside. Now you can tell from that interview that nobody knew at that time what this was, but from the photographs, it looks like an artificially created sphere that was filled with biological material. And he calls them biological entities. We don't know if they're alive or not because I mean they're coming from likely another civilization. And this is what's really very quite fascinating about this whole thing. These are micro UAPs, unidentified aerial phenomenon because they're coming from space, they're directed in some form and they are in our stratosphere. Now is this how, and I've asked this question before, is this how we evolve bits and pieces of microscopic DNA coated with certain information, genetic information, perhaps some of this material goes to the brain, we evolve, we get more advanced thinking, goes to the body, we have cellular reproduction, we live longer, we don't know. I mean really the sky is the limit, the sky is the limit when it comes to this. So get this new book, life comes from space, the decisive evidence, it just came out, the publisher is world scientific. I am going to post a small gallery of these photographs that are just mind-blowing because they look like little middle orbs, little metal orbs that are filled with strange material. What is going on here? And you know it's funny because, and this is back in 2017, like I mentioned, NASA appeared not to care, NASA appeared not to have anything to do with this. And it was very frustrating for Dr. Wayne, right, because it was like, wait a minute you guys, this is a cosmic substance that's been directed or is hitting our atmosphere. Well, that tells you one of two things, either they know about it and are actively researching it or two, and they don't want the cat out of the bag or two, they actually don't care. I can't believe they can't, they don't know about this, it's just too important. So, listen closely to what Dr. Rick Wichran has to say on the topic because it's up to date and he will be presenting this material this weekend at the North Carolina Cosmic Summit. Some of his slides are fascinating. So, so today's program is pan spermia and the cosmic origins of life and my guest is Dr. Shandra Wichran Zing. Every day the world gets a little weirder and a lot more awesome. Cool stuff daily takes a look at everything from mining and space to the latest in the fight against cancer to how AI is basically changing everything. It's all the cool stuff you didn't know you needed to know. Join us for cool stuff daily as we take a quick look at science, tech and the wait what stories that make you sound way smarter at dinner. Subscribe to cool stuff daily now because the future is happening fast and it's way too fun to miss. Do you love romcoms? Do you wish you could talk about Christmas movies year round? Then we have the perfect podcast for you, Home Arkeys Podcasts. 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You'll laugh, you'll cry and gasp and horror as the show spirals completely out of control. It's not just news, it's emotionally unstable. Luna Tick in the newsroom. Listen today. [Music] We are a media sponsor for Cosmic Summit happening June 15th and 16th in North Carolina. I am very honored to have Professor Chandra Wigg Ramsay with us again. We have spoken a couple of different times over the years and it's a pleasure to have him back with us. If you don't know who he is, he's actually the director of the Center for Astrobiology at the University of Buckingham but he has written a number of books on a subject that is dear to my heart, Pants Permia and is considered an expert and he has written so much since we had him on it. I was just looking at my calendar. The last time we had a professor on the program was back in 2019 when he was promoting a book called "Our Cosmic Ancestry" in the Stars which he co-wrote with his daughter. The subtitle of this book is the Pants Permia Revolution and the origins of humanity. Facer, welcome back to EarthHangers. Thank you. I've certainly written loads of papers since then and I totally tell you, books I just took at a few days ago, they run up for the 40, 40 full complete books, "Hardbound Book." Oh my God. Published since 1969 to the present day. I didn't realize you were so prolific. It's wonderful to hear that. But one thing I wanted to just mention and I want to congratulate you, you received the order of the British Empire in 2021. I have very, very high honor. I just saw a picture of you receiving this award by the man himself, the King of England. Charles of England is presenting you this award professor and I wanted to just ask you, this award is for your work in astrobiology as well as other things. Well, I think that's a huge honor for you. Well, I couldn't refuse it coming from the palace, not in the palace, but I think this is because various people have nominated me and so on, but they should have nominated. I shouldn't say this for much, much higher honor than that. Well, that's a huge honor and I don't even know if Fred Hoyle who you work with as a younger scientist receives such an honor. Did he get a couple of steps? Well, it's in fact, he was in a night commander of the British Empire. I'm only a member. Oh, a commander. Oh, it's a different. That's a different. There's so many awards, but that's I think it's a pretty mean list. It's an honor to speak with you. You're not knighted, but you're pretty close. I think all these honors are meaningless. It's only the truth that matters and the people who respect the truth have to be revered, have to be respected. I count myself as being one of them, one of the people who try to seek the truth and ask the right questions and give the answers that very often my peers and lots of other people don't like to hear, but the truth there and the truth is always incontrival. That's been my philosophy right from my earliest days. You brought up a subject. We're going to jump on a little bit later in our interview, but that is the different scientific or scientists who have a problem with your theory. And the issues with pan spermia from using the scientific method, which is a big problem. Before we get into that though, I want to just. I mean, the pan spermia research in the last 20 years, 30 years has been entirely within the framework of the scientific method. But what the major part of, not everybody, but the major part of the establishment of science doesn't like is that it challenges a fundamental principle that they have adhered to for maybe nearly a thousand years or more than that. I think that principle is that life started on the earth. It was almost a. I mean, they wouldn't admit this. It's almost a scientific rendering of the biblical story of creation. What said let there be light and there was light, there was the universe, and on the earth, there was a sudden emergence of life, from non-life. And it is the improbabilities that I involved in all of those statements that I have been worried about, my friend and colleague, the late Sir Freddholl, and I have been pondering on these questions and we think that there is no answer within the framework of wisdom that has been accepted. But that wisdom is being shaken now, severely shaken by new data. Right. I want to talk briefly about your co-authoring a book with a gentleman who I had a great pleasure to interview Milton Wainwright. And this book that you co-wrote with him is wonderful. I haven't had a chance to read it. It's hard to get a hold of. Yeah, in these books I've told it's a niche market just by sort of scientific publishing houses exclusively. It is not entirely technical, it can be read by a man in the street, but it's not easily, it's a world's scientific press in Singapore that brought out a lot of these books. Not the book you held now, the one that caused, I co-wrote with my daughter and so on, it was not in that category. It was a public, it was the US popular publisher that did that. But most of the other things have been academic publishers, publishers of academics and therefore they have been rather limited. Let's talk briefly about what he calls biological entities which he discovered in the stratosphere of Earth's planet Earth. And he actually went one step further when he collected these entities, he scanned them under electronic microscope and found that they possessed not only what looked like a metallic skin, but also contained what he believed. And I don't remember quite because there's been many, many years since we interviewed him, a form of matter of either a DNA or a matter that was very rudimentary but had elements of life in it. What is your belief in that? Because he, and the other thing, he was rejected by NASA, he was almost spurned for this discovery. Well, I think all of us who have been involved in discoveries like this are not greatly respected in fact when in 1984 and 1986 the late Fred Hall and I had discovered the unequivocal evidence of bacteria both in deep space. No question about it. We had signatures, what they call spectroscopic infrared signatures of bacteria all the way from the Earth to the center of our galaxy, right? Thousands of millions or thousands of light years away from us. And all of this was there, we published it in the best journals in nature and mountain notices, they're all astronomical, so that and so on. And they didn't get really anywhere. And then 1986 comes and we have a comet called comet Halley. And that's a comet that makes an appearance every 80 years or something like that. And so once in a lifetime you might see that comet and we were lucky enough to have the privilege of being able to get some colleagues to examine the spectrum of the comet, the tail of the comet, to see if there were signs of bacterial material. It's already had found in deep space, right? In the remote depths of space. And what we found is that there was no question this comet was just riddled with bacteria and that is a story that has continued to unfold year after year after year. And scientists are sort of keeping a little distance from it because as soon as it made one Iota of this story, then the whole house of cars that they've been worshipping for a long time just falls down. So this is the problem we face now. We've got a mountains of data that shows that we are truly cosmic creatures, that there's no way in which life as we know it could have started on the earth. And this is very slowly coming to be sort of half recognized. Last week there was a discovery reported of what is called an extra planet, planet outside our solar system, that had a bacterial signature of a bacterium, a chemical signature of a bacterium and a signature comprised of three chemicals, carbon dioxide, methane and something called methyl disulfide. And the latter, methyl disulfide as we know it's in chemistry and biology is only made from through living processes. So there's here two, three hundred light years away. There is a planet and the workers there, the researchers reckon that it has hot water, oceans of warm water and in those oceans there is evidence of these microscope egg life waves and not as far as it all for us because we've been talking about life in deep space for twenty, thirty years or forty years something. And so it's gradually coming into sort of mainstream that there is life outside. But the catch for us and the sort of the dishonest way that they interpret the data is that this is spontaneous generation, God creating life essentially happening everywhere. Right? It didn't just happen on the earth. We have always shown conclusively that the odds against happening on the earth is just incredibly, incredibly small and I think you heard this metaphor. It's like a tornado blowing through a junkyard, putting together a fully working, going if seven, four, seven, that's what Fred and I, yeah, that's a scale of improbability that's involved. So one miracle is bad enough, maybe it happened, we have here, so something happened here and so we can afford to accept one miracle. But if another miracle happens and another miracle happens, then I think the game is up and it's only a matter of time that the whole house of cards is going to collapse and we're going to accept, we're going to be forced to accept that life is truly cosmic phenomenon. I mean, coming back to what you're talking about Milton Benrat's experiment, Milton Benrat and I worked together on these projects for maybe twenty years or so. In 2001, he was also part of a team that went to India, to the Indian Space Research Organization and this organization is a very powerful space organization. It's like the NASA of India. It, in fact, beats NASA, it beats the European Space Agency, it beats the Chinese in being the first Space Agency to send an instrument to the South Pole of the Moon. This happened about six months ago, something, there's a very powerful space agency. They were not prejudiced against this idea of life in the universe outside of the earth. So he, this organization and Fred Horl myself and Milton and a few colleagues got together and asked the Indians to launch a balloon to the highest point in the stratosphere with a collecting device, right? Well, interesting. This 2001, this is before Milton got his whole range of stuff in 2010, 2015 and so on. That is 15 years ago. earlier. So we send this balloon with the Indian spethracer, so I said, and we found unambiguous signs of bacteria at 41 kilometers. It's quite a great height, right? And these bacteria, some of them were unknown to Earth, unknown to, and they were named after astronomers and so on, through to bacteria and genius. But still the majority of scientists say, well, this is very similar to what we have on Earth, but maybe the stuff went up there, got slightly modified, and you collected them, not through at all. What we did with Indian scientists was to collect this systematically over a year. And you know what we found? We found that there was not one bacteria or two bacteria, more 100 bacteria coming into the Earth. There were hundreds of millions of bacteria coming through the atmosphere and inevitably therefore falling on the surface of the Earth. And the rate at which they fell on the surface is staggering. It's 100 million individual bacteria are falling on the Earth every single day per square meter. Every square meter. Recognizable bacteria or is this something coldly foreign? Well, no one has bothered to look at them, right? Because we wanted them to be studied and to be proved to have an extraterrestrial origin. And the instruments that could have proved this first are very difficult to get hold of them, I think we're going to get hold of time on these instruments. So to this day, this huge flux of stuff that is falling from the skies is just thought to be all recycled from the surface of the Earth. Somehow they've got too high, they've got as high as 40 kilometers, they're falling back. So my mother is the is the attitude, oh my god, but wait for it, the Russians, we may not like Mr. Putin, but the Russian Academy of Sciences a couple of years ago, sent investigators to their International Space Station, which is now, now we're going to 400 kilometers, not 40 kilometers, but 400 kilometers. Space Station is always way above the Earth's environment, right? And they found bacteria on the outside of the International Space Station. Oh, I heard about this. This was reported in the news, wasn't it? Well, in the news, and it was sort of poo-poo, not poo-poo, it was just brushed out, swept around the rug saying, oh, this is not very interesting. They have, my, the Russians may have taken up the bacteria with them and just-- Oh, they, oh, right, yeah, yeah, they're in an excuse for it. There's always an excuse for any contradiction with the established. We point on the existence of life outside the Earth. We have to be alone, Cliff. We have to be alone in the Universe, all alone, all, all alone. I want to mention to our listeners that this book that you co-wrote with Dr. Wainwright was called Life Comes From Space. It's very difficult to get a hold of. I just got a used copy from a noted used bookseller, but it must have been a very small run. A few thousand. I think what you should do, if you really want to get people to buy, is to approach directly the publisher, which is called the publisher called World, the Scientific Publishing, and it's based in Singapore. Okay. All right. Years ago, when I first was working and trying to formulate my thoughts on pan spermia, your belief, and of course, Hoyle's belief, was that this was just a natural occurrence. It's kind of an evolutionary pattern of these spores being attached to asteroids, and where a planet is a great harvesting center, it turns the life in some form. You took it one step further when we last spoke and believed that our last or our current pandemic, coronavirus and so forth, is also a form of pan spermia. Can you expand on that a little bit? I've been in the last year or two. I've sort of kept clear of trying to link the coronavirus with the space theory for one simple reason. It's getting very tangled up with politics and international politics, and it's supposed to be now Chinese virus that was made by the Chinese. I for one do not believe that, but then I cannot disprove it either because I haven't gone up to the Chinese laboratories and investigated it. It happened there. But coronavirus, apart from that, the all the earlier pandemics of history roll the way back to maybe the plague of Athens in 430 BC. Those plagues have unambiguous signs of signatures of them coming from space. This is unquestionably the case in the old data, in the pandemics that have happened in the past. Most recently, I forget about the coronavirus, we don't want to talk about it at the moment because it's too flawed with where it's the problem is. But if you go back to the Spanish flu, which is in 1918, 1919, this has been well documented. It was in the days of newspapers and wireless was there. It was devastating. It was devastating. It killed vast numbers of people. And the first lethal outbreaks of this flu occurred on the same day in Boston and Bombay. In 1918, of course, there's no air travel. Air planes were not invented for human travel, passenger travel. So this is, I think to me, a clear indication of it coming from outside of the Earth's atmosphere and all the details of how it spread as far as it's been recorded in sort of senate proceedings of the US Senate and Congress and so on. We studied a lot of those papers. When we wrote a book called Fred and I, wrote a book called "Diseas from Space" in 1979. And that's still worth reading. It should be available on the internet and it's not expensive at all. So I think I think life is truly cosmic. A and viruses are also truly cosmic. There's no question that viruses that are carrying genes, genetic material could sometimes cause disease and these are pathogenic viruses. But viruses could also be beneficial. We know that there are transverse viruses between animals and the Earth, between plants and butterflies and so on. It's a mode of exchange of genetic information, a virus as a way to. And so I think on a cosmic scale, these are the best transmitters or evolutionary potential for life. It's recognized in biology as horizontal gene transfer. Horizontal gene transfer occurring viruses, occurring transfers occurring on the surface of the Earth. But I think the most important, the most interesting possibility is that these viruses are being transferred and the viruses contain body plans for new animals, for humans maybe in elephants and so on. And these are being shuffled across vast cosmic distances. That's what's happening. If you take a single drop of ocean water, go out to the nearest ocean that you have to you and drop one drop of ocean water. It is supposed to have 100 million viruses. 100 million variants of viral particles exist in a single drop of water. And it's not there. They've not been analyzed efficiently. We don't know what they are. They are there for a while and then they're broken up by sunlight and so on. So the viruses are the vectors of of evolution, I think, of cosmic biological evolution. Would you say that and I think I'm understanding in your in your description of these viruses that this is a form of possible human evolution where we could be a Neanderthal and then through pansebrumia we evolve into another creature, Homo sapiens and then Homo sapiens sapiens. Is this what your theory is on how we evolve as a species? I can't say it's not my theory, I think the facts are very clear. For instance, even before the human, before Homo sapiens is appeared on the scene, the emergence of mammals that give birth to their young, right, or a placenta called their placenta male mammals. In the placenta of a mammal that gives birth to a child, to a new, to a new, a new member of the same species, there are supposed to be millions of viruses that we don't know what they're, what the hell they are doing. It's in the placenta and that's well documented and so on and so viruses have played a role in the transfer of transmission of genetic information in evolutionary potential in, as you said in the whole, evolution of humans that is well documented. For instance, the, as a gene called the Fox P gene that enables humans to communicate through speech and that's a viral invasion, intrusion into the, into the pre-seding species that dominated the earth. So every, every major event in the evolution of life, even through the human evolution, maybe only a few million years, I think has been at least partially mediated by viruses coming from outside. Viruses carry the information for new species, for information for new, new features in living creatures for intelligence and so on. So I think that's inevitable. Okay. We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves and we will return shortly with my guest today, Dr. Shandra Wigg-Ramsey, discussing his latest work on pan spermia. We'll be right back. I'm in the back seat. You should probably take the wheel. I'm kind of twisted inside and I don't know why I'm going. I'm just here for the ride. Okay. Here comes the double vision. This Megan Fox ever turned her something. Might be the prosack you can get in, but she tossed her drink in my face and it didn't even flinch. My mom says love's not easy. Just be your head. This is Mike Follow of Lexicon Valley. And I'm Bob Garfield. Are you one of those people who sometimes uses words? Do you communicate or acquire information with, you know, language? Hey us too! So join us on Lexicon Valley to true over the history, culture, and many mysteries of English. Plus some life cracks. Find us on one of those apps where people listen to podcasts. Cool stuff daily takes a look at everything from mining in space to the latest in the fight against cancer to how AI is, well, basically changing everything. It's all the cool stuff you didn't know you need it to know. Join us for cool stuff daily as we take a quick look at science, tech, and the wait, what stories that make you sound way smarter at dinner. The sun shining birds are singing and all feels right in the world. Until the season changes and suddenly you lose your motivation to get out of bed. In fact, one in five people experience some form of depression no matter the season or time of year. At the American Psychiatric Association Foundation, our vision is to build a mentally healthy nation for all because we want you to live your best life and be your best you all year round. Please visit mentallyhealthination.org to learn more. My guest today is Dr. Shandra Wick-Ramzing. He is discussing pan-spirmia and he's also the co-author of a new book called Life Comes From Space, The Disciasive Evidence. I have a gallery that you can see with photographs from this book on the Facebook page. Go to earth ancients, Facebook, and you'll see some of the photos that we are discussing today. My next question is, and we went through this last time, is it intelligently designed? Is there a race of beings, billions of years advance of us, who is doing, who is populating the cosmos with these spores and other microbiology? Or is it just random? Is it a random act? I don't think if you look at the order of things, the order of life, the arrangements in life, the subtlety of design that you're seeing live, it's not a random thing. It's a reason as part of a cosmic, a grand cosmic plan that was essentially started up, maybe at the beginning of the Big Bang universe. I was just going to say the Big Bang is like the epicenter for all of this. Is that too much to ask? That's too much to ask now because in the you know, in the last, this is again very reason, in the last six months, the James Webb Telescope is a great instrument, right? It's an American, European joint venture and they found this planet, exoplanet, I said, with the chemical of life, a few hundred light years away from us and so on. But they also found galaxies, fully flaged clusters of galaxies, with, in a way, for it, with what they call a redshift of 30.5 billion years. So this means that if you really interpret what is called the redshift, which is more emotional of the object away from us, right? If you take that as being the indicator of distance, which astronomers have done from the time of Hubble, hundred years ago, more than a hundred years ago, then this galaxy predates the beginning of the universe because the universe is supposed to be 13.8 billion years, right? And now they're having these galaxies that are 30, theories zero, uh, point something, believe me. So let me understand what you're trying to say. You're saying that the big bang was just for our universe and there is other universes that are older than ours. That's what seems to be all that the universe is, the universe is not a big bang, but it's a little now, or a oscillating system. The beginning at 13.8 was not the real beginning. It was, it was, and that's the way it is happening. I mean, there are astronomers, very famous astronomers, uh, in, in Oxford, uh, and in India, and they're both, both promoting this in a big way because there's no way in which you can understand the, the data that's emerging now in terms of a simple big bang, event 13.8 billion years ago. Those galaxies that the people have found in the last two, three months, the new galaxies with the, with these very, very high red ships, right? If you can say that the red shift is due to black holes or something, and there are loads of ways that are trying to get over, get over this distance and age problem, right? They still cannot say that the galaxies, these galaxies were formed. At a time when galaxies are supposed to be able to form, they're formed 500 in the standard story. They must have formed 500 million years after the big bang. And a million years, there were no atoms. There were very few atoms around to the lot of energy and stuff, but there was nothing. So there are many, many, many big problems. And I think the universe of an infinite age, right? With all of the information, the intelligent information that you said, the intelligent design type information, was written on that universe of infinite age, right through all of time. So there's no question of beginning. If you have it, if you have it, right through an infinite, infinity of years. In fact, this is not, that doesn't need to invoke a creation type God or even a God of it. It is a just there, university just there. So what do you, I mean, if I were to pin you down and say, Professor, is pansebrermia a system developed by very advanced beings a billion years ago? What would you say to that? I think it does an inherent intelligence in the universe. That's what I would, the universe itself is intelligent. It was intelligent right from the beginning, intelligent in the sense that it contained an infinite amount of very complex information that went into bacteria, went into the behavior of stellar systems, went into behavior of life and so on. So intelligence is a truly cosmic phenomenon. And in terms of human intelligence, I for one moment do not believe that we are anywhere near the peak of human type intelligence, and I don't know any type of intelligence that can be regarded as being human like. We are going to find in the fullness of time creatures that are a million, trillion times more intelligent than us. And God forbid us. Are you saying aliens alien contact? They must be aliens outside of the earth for sure. Can you open the door for this? So I have another questions for you. What do you believe on this UAP phenomenon of advanced craft that are military, the United States military? I know you're in London. Yeah. And I think the British are the same way. Are now analyzing the propulsion systems of these craft and we now know that they're extremely advanced. What do you say? There are lots that has been covered up. I think I mean, maybe we don't like conspiracy theories and so on and so on. But there is a lot that we are not fully being informed about. But I mean, just take the classified files on your UFO sightings that were classified both in the US and in the UK for something like 30 or 40 years and they've been declassified recently. A couple of years ago, there was a congress ruling that declassified. And the declassification went along with high up into which was very high up in the US military testifying to the veracity of these reports of sightings and sort of spaceships sort of doing complex moments around the aircraft and so on. So there's a lot that is happening that we are not fully appraised of, that we are not fully aware of. But it is all consistent, I think, with intelligence that is at a much, much higher level than us. And maybe there is a possible connection or contact that is being tried out. I mean, I don't want to go public saying this, but this is my instinct. Well, that's the question I would have for you is what happens to us as earth humans when we do have a first contact with a race that's a thousand, ten thousand, half a million years advanced to us? Well, I think I hope that it would be a humbling experience. It will make us less aggressive, less arrogant, I think I would like to put it. I think we are so arrogant. We think that the climax, the peak of evolution, we are at the height of everything that we think is virtuous and good and so on. And look at the world around us in a dreadful mess now, isn't it? I don't want to go into details. This is not too depressive now. We're trying to be very positive here. In your last book, you brought up what you call micro fossils on meteorites. How do we know they're micro fossils? And also, obviously, if there's from space, they must be from an ET origin, right? Oh, yeah, from very far away from outside the solar system. We know if you look at the earth today, it's teams with life, it's obvious, right? Life of all sorts, humans don't bacteria viruses, insects in between, right? And flowers and plants and stuff like that. But go back 4.5 billion years ago, the earth was just sort of getting together, bits of the crust were colliding, the huge major ice colliding with a primitive earth. The sun had just been born, eventually, to a very young son at the time. And so the earth, there was a time, 4.5 billion years ago when the earth was just picking up this debris, mostly rocks to begin with, right? And then after that phase of a creation of rocks, the crust, its crust was formed, the rocky crust. And then there was a flood of what are called cometary missiles, right? Cometary objects that were flooding the earth, hitting the earth in large numbers. And they contained volatile materials, I think they contained life as well, they contained the biology that we see in comets today, a reckon that must have happened. And they also carried water to make the earth's oceans, primitive oceans. And so everything started from that point on. So there was a time when the earth existed as a planet and life was just getting started from a very distant cosmic source. And the life that came in terms of units, in terms of the bacteria, viruses, whatever came inside the meteorites, were these, were the stuff that various meteoristic scientists have been looking at, Richard Hoover, Hennessey Flog and so on. They were picking up residues of comets, residues of asteroids, carbonous asteroids, slicing them, cutting them through, putting them under microscopes and finding structures that are uncannily biological in terms of you, in terms of earth biologists. You can see loads of stuff that means that these were in environments, these meteorites that were falling on the earth were in environments where there was life for various kinds. Would it be an earth-like environment? And I want to ask a follow-up question, have they classified these micro fossils as to where they would come from or do they have no way of knowing? They have no way of knowing, except that in some meteorites they know that these meteorites have been in space for perhaps older than the solar, an age greater than the age of the solar system. So, being around a long time, they've been along billions of years in space and that they can say that by looking at tracks of cosmic rays that go through these meteorites. So they are very old and some of the meteorites are residues of fragments of bodies that may be contained live, I think did certainly contain live. And these objects predated the formation of our solar system. So they go back to pre-solar, a pre-solar system in Iran. I mean, I think these things are being not suppressed but they're not being investigated logically, rationally, carefully enough. I'll tell you a story. When we had published lots of papers on cosmic life and life and space and so on, a German meteorite scientist, Mack or Hans D. Flug from one of the major German institutions, geological institutions, made contact with me and Fred and came to see us. And he said that we have, I have evidence that is crushing evidence in support of your point of view. And it's being held back, it's been prevented from getting into the major journals and so on. And so he showed all these evidence and there was no question that he had, he was on to something very, very big. And what he did was to take meteorites, right, that fell maybe in the last 20, 30, 40 years, take interior slices inside the meteorite, 10 slices. And so what he then does is put it on a little grill, a grill or something, under the microscope, he takes the rocks, melts the rocks away by putting a very strong acid. And what is left is just the, there's the fossils, the micro fossils. He found bacteria, diatoms, all sorts of stuff there and no one wanted to know it. And so they got published in the conference proceedings but it didn't get very far. And then about 20 years later or 15 years later, the man called Richard B. Hoover from NASA started the same operation of taking meteorites and looking for micro fossils, micro fossils. So these phone tons and tons. tons of these fossilized microbes. In 2003, this is, I should tell you this story, because I come, my original home was in Sri Lanka, and there was a meteorite fall, and a fall of what was called red rain. And it was in the news, and so Mr. Rijit Hubein, ourselves, rushed their collected samples of the rocks that fell from the skies. No question that they fell, they've seen them dozens of farmers, right, and they brought these rocks to Europe, US, and so on. And there's microphosphates inside them, diatoms, all kinds of extinct microorganisms, fossilized microorganisms that didn't exist on the earth for for billions of years. So it is all there. And you know what the story is, the the meteoritic society hasn't yet accepted this as being a meteorite fall, because there was no video recording of the fall. Now, can you, in a very primitive village in Sri Lanka, where people were very poor farmers, and so on. They didn't, in those days, in 2003, they didn't carry no, there's, now it may be different, they didn't carry their cell phones with, that's where we stand, if we have a system that is utterly repressive in terms of, in terms of knowledge, suppression. But sooner or later, you cannot suppress facts. It just keeps advancing, and advancing, and advancing. To a point, then you really have to kill yourself if you're going to I want to conclude our time together with a book that Paul Gidar wrote called The Death of Science, the retreat from reason to the postmodern world. And this is an important book, and we had this conversation before a professor on the fact that science isn't necessarily open for discussion on certain topics. That there is a, that there seems to be an editorial system in place where new thinking, new discoveries are suppressed. Talk a little bit about your contribution to that book. You wrote a whole chapter. I don't know, I don't know, I think it's a concluding chapter. And I wrote about the ideas that we've been promoting over these years and discovering facts that are ubiquitous in supporting the ideas of life throughout the universe and so on. And then I was commenting on why it had not become mainstream, or it's very slow to become mainstream. And I think what I concluded in that article, and in other articles as well, roughly at the same time, is that there is a cultural force that is operating, right? European culture, scientific culture, dominated the world from about 1500, 1600 with all the voyages of discovery that the Europeans went and discovered Sri Lanka, discovered the East Indies and so on. And along with those discoveries, they also took their own philosophies and tried to implant them in various ways. India is a very interesting case, right? They went to India, which is in a very ancient country. It has a civilization that is much, much older than the Europeans, right? They have superb mathematics and they invented the concept of zero, they invented the concepts of infinity. And in fact, the numbers that we use, right? You know, sums and accounting, one, two, three, four, it's an Indian number system that goes back 2,400 years, right? European string, other numbers. So they were incredibly mature in their scientific ideas, but they rejected them completely for centuries once they got to India. They said, these guys are dark skinned, they are savages and we don't want to have anything to do with them. And they had lots of institutions for herbal medicine, research institutions that were flourishing for hundreds of years. They were very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, and they just closed them up, they just demolished those buildings effectively. But now we are going back to these herbal, herbal, trying to extract the remedies, the medicines, very, so it's sort of coming back full circle. I think the colonization of science by the west played an important role in sort of pushing back the progress of Pants Bermia. Because Pants Bermia is an ancient Greek idea, a pre-socratic idea. It's also an ancient Vedic idea, but it's not mainstream, it was not mainstream European science. So I think there is a cultural resistance. I mean, my colleagues won't like to hear this, but I personally believe that the rejection of Pants Bermia or the delay in accepting such hard facts that support the idea of Pants Bermia is a cultural problem. Yeah, a form of racism, though, is very prevalent in the way you're speaking. But yesterday has been Dr. Charles McRAMsey. He is a keynote speaker at the upcoming Cosmic Summit June 15th and 16th. I don't know what you're speaking on at that summit, but are you going to be coming to the states in person? I'm still not sure what we're going to be coming to. It might still be, but I think from some logistic reasons for travel and so on, I may not. I may be. It may be a virtual virtual presentation. I would love to be there. I'm going to won't be there in person, but I will definitely be there virtually. Thank God for giving me media. Really a pleasure to have you on the program. And can I, before we leave, can I ask, are you working on a new book right now? I know you're somewhat semi-retired, but you're like, I'm looking at you right now. You have so much energy. I can't see you sitting on your hands for-- No, no, no. I would go mad if I do that. So I'm constantly and tuning out new ideas, new books. I've got a couple of papers that are now being co-written with my Indian collaborator, with Nalika and India. And I've got this whole team in Europe and America. Richard Hoover is an American guy who just came and visited us some only a couple of weeks ago. He's been touring England. He's been trying to get instruments lined up for proving that these structures in the meteorites came from space. But to this day, he hasn't had any luck. It seems to get lost. As we depart, one question on Wainwright's research, his electron microscope image of this one microbe that he found in the stratosphere looks metallic to me. It's got biology on the inside. Right. But what's the skin? It is, I think, it's an eye. As far as I remember, it is metallic eye. But it looked like it was artificial. He looked artificial. But so does biology look artificial, if you really think about it, isn't it? This thing looked like it was made from a manufacturing process. Like a bullet. Almost like a bullet, but more like a, it was hard to explain. And then he took a picture and this DNA or this material is coming out of it. Yeah. Very famous photograph many years ago. Yeah, it didn't spin around. I mean, it didn't take off in scientific circles. I think the response has been to acknowledge. I think he tried to get it in a nature magazine and they rejected it. Yeah, that's that's the problem. I've published a whole lot of papers in nature in my time. But as soon as you come to a situation where that is controversial in science, then the nature and all these sort of very stodgy journals, conservative journals just close in and they act cooperatively in saying that this is not science. It's so it's fringe science. We don't do anything to do with it. His big frustration and I remember this very acutely was the fact that NASA just wouldn't even look at it. And he was very He was very troubled at that because he was discovering this and they were responding. It was very strange. Of course, that's a few years ago. I mean, that's, I mean, the Perennial problem with us. When Gil Levin discovered life on Mars, I think that is still a major discovery that is beyond reputation from any stand, right? The President of the United States made the declaration that life has discovered on Mars. And then the management of NASA thought this is not good for their image at all and they recanted. The next day they said, "No, wait, we have to do other tests and so on." And it was not good. So I think Gil Levin discovered and Patrice just discovered, no question about discovered life on Mars, existence of microorganisms and Mars. And likewise, my prediction is that the Indians would discover life, microbial life on the south pole of the moon. Wow, amazing. How can people learn more about you? Do you have a website or a. Yeah. Well, I have a website. I don't keep that in. Where can people see more fluidity from you? Writing's white papers. Do you have a journal page or are you part of the university? No, I don't. I mean, the university connection with Buckingham is a bit. It's become a bit fivillous because I don't have any students working with me. And there's a website and so on. And I've got a website also in a major Sri Lanka institution called the Institute of Fundamental Studies in Sri Lanka, which is something that I founded in 1980. I was a founder director of the Institute. So there's a website. There's a website there. And on my email, I've listed some various interviews and. Oh, I have a list that you sent to my producer, Gail Tore. So I guess I have your permission to post those. You can post anything here. All right. As long as it's not damning. Well, I guess the other way to know about you is when you get your knighthood in the next few years. I do. I do. Hey, always a pleasure and appreciate everything you're doing. And we look forward to seeing you at the Cosmic Summit, either June, Saturday, June 15th or June 16th Sunday. Okay. Great. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. I mean, history is going to look back on people like Shandra. And wonder why we didn't respond sooner rather than later to this whole pan-spirumia idea. And you know, it's also going to be enlightening when we do have our first contact with off-world types because they're going to say, you know, this is what we see. This is what is science. And by the way, you have it wrong. You know, we've been here for tens of millions of years, millions of years. And you're part of a collective. You're part of a Cosmic family. I want that to happen before I leave the planet. I really do. And I think we get bits and pieces of it. If, you know, Milton Wayne Wright and Chandra, you know, make statements about artificial spores being sent our way. And you NASA wakes up. Or as I kind of guess to the very beginning of the show, perhaps NASA knows all about this. And we're not allowed to know about it. You know, we get back to the Brookings Institute document. We're not going to be, we're not ready. We can't deal with it. We'll freak out. We'll commit suicide. It's society. We'll end if we hear that we are part of an ancient cosmic collective of planets. And that pan spermy is part of an evolutionary pattern that is developed on each planet that can hold life. You know, why not? Why do we have to wait? That's always been the big problem for me is, you know, this, I think it has to do with religion and it has to do with ego, you know, slid at rip. We're part of the cosmic collective of planets. It really helps when there's first contact though because it all falls into place. And that day is coming. It's coming. I sure hope so. Again, if you want to see Shandra and 21 world class speakers at cosmic summit go to cosmic summit.com/Earthanges and all that is left are the streaming tickets. But you know what? It's like you're there. The streaming media is so good now. You're right there. So check it out. Get your, your pass and also remember that if you're not, you can't attend it. All of the talks, you'll get the files for the ones you missed forever. You get to keep those so you can watch them in the comfort of your whenever time you have. So, so check them out. CosmicSummit.com/Earthanges. Hey, we have a tour coming up in November. It's our sacred temples of Yucatan, Mexico. It's going to be with my friend, Mimul Gonzalez. We're going to have Mimul on the program in the coming weeks. And this is a chance. It's a one week program. It's November 8th through the 17th. It's a chance to really connect with pyramids and Mayan temples. And we'll be on the Yucatan Peninsula, which means that's the site of some of the biggest and best known Mayan sites, including Chichéniza, Ushmo, Ekbalam, Mayapan, and many others. We will take our time learning how to climb pyramids and we'll climb almost every place we go to. There's also a wonderful itinerary of sites, including the National Museum. It has some real anomalies that I've chronicled. But there's always an update. They always have really amazing artifacts and carvings and sculptures. So to join us, go to earthhence.com/tours, check it out and come out and join us if you're interested. And also, always check earthhence.com/tours. We have about, we're about to launch our 2025 season of topics and sites and they're always going to be great. So earthhence.com/tours. If you enjoy earthhence and destiny, please consider becoming a subscriber. For as little as $5 a month, you can support the work we do here on the podcast. And I gotta tell you, it is expensive, it is time consuming, and your subscription of 5, 10, 15, even $20 a month makes a huge, huge difference. To become a subscriber, go to patreon.com/earthhence and subscribe. And we have a whole bunch of gifts to you. I upload a new ebook every month. We're over 30 now. There's some edited interviews or some galleries and it's always fun to chat. So come out and join us earthhence.com. For more information, go to patreon.patr.com/earthhence and subscribe. I want to thank the following people who have become subscribers. I want to thank Maria Cortez, Tom Kelly, Jay Harrington, Elizabeth Phillips, Danielle Lloyd, Pete Afan, meetafan. James Edward and Sandy Chow. You guys, I really appreciate your subscriptions. You guys rock and I appreciate the support. To become a subscriber, go to patreon.com/earthhence. Alright, that's it for this program. I want to thank my guest today, Dr. Shandra Wakramzi coming to us from England as always the team of Gail Tor, Mark Foster and everyone who makes this thing happen. You guys seriously rock. Alright, take care, be well and we will talk to you next time. [Music] [Music]