CEO of Hiscox: From biscuit factory to billion pound insurance business

What people around you really value that you solve problems, that you can get things done. If you can get things done, you are sure as the value by your team. You find people who are really good at describing a problem, and then you have people who can work through the logic of all that, and just execute and get things done. Those people are just invaluable. Be a team player, make friends, and get things done. And if you do that, you'll fly. Absolutely. My name is Adam Kirisay. I'm a group CEO of Hiscolks, a global insurance company, and we employ just over 3,000 people. And this is my true very flip. How do we convince those waiting for the perfect job you should go and get some work experience? If you're not going to job, you get any job. If you can't get a peer job, get a voluntary job, because you're still learning something. Even when you have a choice, don't sit around doing nothing. If you don't have a job, go and do any job. Insurance is something I absolutely love. It is such a useful service that insurance companies provide. It's behind almost everything that happens in society. I find it's good for the soul. I try to work every day, knowing that we get this right. We're helping people build businesses. We're helping people build homes. They've got their dreams, and that feels good. And that's what insurance does. If you just have a done day at work and making mistakes, we can come in and protect. We sit down again in 25 years' time. What legacy have you left on the industry? Hopefully we're wearing this redo somewhere around the beach. I think I'm right there. Keep it out. And my final question, are you ready? What should you do, Vay Flip? What gets you out of bed in the morning to flip the doobay? Oh, it's a couple of minutes. It's so hot. I need to have what you're covering. Oh, you mean out the year? Yeah, it's quite muggy out there. Yeah. And then I've got a hot drink, but I need a hot drink. Because when it's conversation, just comfort. Right. Right. Something around. And I think I do. I prefer your hot, though. Yeah. I do. I just thought I'd like to suit. But I do like it hot. You just take the suit off. Wow. Yeah, if you've got clients and stuff, I don't wear it at all. So at least that's not. So is it a mix in between, then, isn't it? Yeah, it depends on some of those I don't wear. But we're quite relaxed. Keep it simple. So you've had an interesting career. So from a waiter to a biscuit factory to working for one of the biggest consultancy firms to tech and media company to bank into insurance, I want to cover it all. So I want to start with being a waiter. OK. The first job. Yeah. You become a waiter. What did you learn on that job? Well, firstly, I think taking the job as a waiter was, you know, it was essential. I know, you know, I'm from a Northern town. Second generation, you know, I'm a parent from Pakistan. If I didn't work, then I won't be able to do much else. You know, we didn't have a great deal. We had enough, but not a great deal. So it was essential. And both, but what I learned in that first job was essentially, just people skills have to deal with people. You meet people from all sorts of all walks of life. And then working with a bunch of people. It's very lucky. It was working with a bunch of people. I actually ran to a young hour 16. I think the guy who owned the restaurant was only in his mid 20s. And what I really learned is how you can work effectively as a team and how much fun it is. No matter what the job is, what the work content is. If you're really lucky, the work content is going to be really interesting and you're going to love it. But what really makes work a pleasure and a joy. The people that you're working with. And that was incredible. I was such a fantastic team around me. I was in which form. And we just had fun. I actually had a lot of fun at work. The customer was great. Most of the time. And when you, when you know me go into a job, you go through different organisations, working different ways and you'll go through several interviews and assessments and all that stuff, you don't always get to meet the team you're going to work with. What are you doing that situation? What about you went into that restaurant and the 20 odd year old founder owner, wasn't that nice, the paper you work with was a bit stuck up. What would you have done? Firstly, it depends on your circumstance. So if you have a choice, then I would suggest you take a bit of time, learn a lot more about the organisation, read about it, find a talk to other people who work there. If you can, when your restaurant is a bit more tricky, but if you're working in the city or in a larger organisation, ask to speak to other people. And if they, if they define that, then maybe that tells you something. But if you can ask to speak to other people, they're generally just very honest. And you can tell, you can ask them some pointed questions about what it's like to work there. So you can find out a lot about the organisation through that. These days you can find out a lot by looking on glass door and very southern mechanism. I would suppose encourage people to do that. But that's if you have a choice. When I was 16, I'd be a whole choice. You talk about you didn't have a choice. What are those things that if a person was sitting there and saying, oh, I tick three of those boxes, I clearly don't have a choice. And the reason why I'm asking this is because, like you said, not everyone has a choice. But there is also, there is a sense of entitlement where to work with people. And if it's not a job at TikTok, pay an under a K and you just come out of uni, I don't want to do any other job. Sometimes you have to take a job because you don't have a choice. And there's no such thing as a perfect job straight away. And it takes years and years to find that job that becomes the perfect job. So what I want kind of to kind of discuss and try and get to the bottom of is, how do we convince those who are waiting for the perfect job who have been unemployed for a bit of time? They've got a bit of entitlement and they're waiting for that perfect job and it'll never come along. And really think down, they don't have a choice. What would you be saying? Saying, well, if this is happening in your life and you don't really have a choice, you should go and get some work experience. I get to smile for lots of years being throughout life is, do whatever needs to be done. Right? So if you're not going to a job, get any job, really, it's better to be occupied and learn something. It's been the same advice I give to my children, which is, you know, if it's in the summer and now get a job, don't sit around, because you're going to learn something. If you can't get a paid job, get a voluntary job, because you're still learning something. So working a charity shop, you're doing some good, you're going to learn some skills. So whatever situation, or most situations you're in, even when you have a choice, don't sit around doing nothing, right? While you're exercising your choice, go and learn something, do something, be a gardener, working in an ice cream vendor. You know, these are all jobs that I've tried for in a few days or weeks, because sitting around waiting for the perfect job is never going to come. And frankly, if you're 18 or 20 or 25 or 30, you don't want the perfect job, right? I mean, frankly, I have to say, if I pay to myself, I don't think I knew it's something you want to do, and I was 40. I think that's brilliant advice, because I like what you said, if you don't have a job, go and do any job, because then that actually helps you. If you've not got a job and you've been at a work for a bit of time, don't be fussy, go and get a job, learn on it, learn on that job. In fact, some of the things that you don't like doing, him, is that becoming the things that you do like doing, because you're scared in your gut, is that gut feeling? That's it. I mean, often people don't like doing something because they think they're not good at it. But we're not good at anything until we practice, right? Once you practice, you get better at it, and then you figure out, okay, I really like this, because I'm good at it and I'm making a difference. We all want to make a difference. But you don't do that on day one. You've got to learn some skills, you've got to learn how to do these things. Personal hobby of mine is motor racing. I like to watch, but I also like to race cars, and I've been doing that for quite a while. So you went from the restaurant to a biscuit factory? Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that experience. Well, working in a biscuit factory. So I used to do that every summer, from Munich, and I was back from Munich. And it was a really good experience. It was a cleanest environment of ever working, and it was awesome. But what I learned there was that what people around you really value, let you solve problems, that you can get things done. If you can get things done, the simplest of things, then you are used to value by your team, by your managers, by colleagues around you. And the fact that something that comes to mind is, I've heard, it's a lesson that I've reflected on, and previous managers and leaders that I've worked for have said, but it's most eloquently put by Barack Obama. I was watching a YouTube video. a few years ago, where I said just learn to get stuff done and you find people who are really good at describing a problem or explaining why something can't be done and then you have people who can work through the logic of all that and just execute and get things done. That's good. I'll say it's more than mindset is incredibly valuable. What you're saying, which I subscribe to, is when you go into an organisation and you start an out in your career or you start an out in your industry, you don't know much. Don't try and be the expert, but go in, be a team player, make friends and get things done on what you're asked to get done. And if you do that, with that mindset, you're fly. Again, what I find is making connections is incredibly important. When you're from, and I thought you might experience when you're from my sort of background, from the working class, you don't always value or think you need to make lots of connections. You think, actually, if I just do a good job, that will be enough. No one tells you, right? Yeah. That's right. I grew up in a council estate. I had three nights a week with that dinner. It was tough. No one tells you to connect, to not burn bridges, to actually listen. You actually went since I've been coming to an entrepreneur and a business leader. The connection is so important. Absolutely. But in the end, we're all human, right? And when you're thinking of opportunities, yes, you're going to have a criteria for, I want to somebody with a particular set of skills and experience, but you're also going to think, oh, somebody I met three months ago who wanted to do this type of work. And okay, maybe I'll just give them a call and let them know about the opportunity. Because, often, it's just, you don't know where to go. And when you're from that sort of background, you don't know where to go, to speak, to when the jobs will, how do you get one of these jobs? And so making connections, making friends, letting people know who you are, and a little bit about what your interests are. It's incredibly valuable, but a really undervalued skill of activity amongst young people from particular background. And I always encourage them, try and go to, if you're getting invite, if you can't try and get invite to conferences or if the dinner is aware of it is, and just say, oh, just be curious, be curious about them. I think if you're curious about the people that you're around, they will respond to be curious about you and find out about you. And they'll remember you. From my background, and clearly from young, connections felt like for me, about seven years ago when I entered the workplace, and I've also got so much more to learn and grow. I felt connections was hidden behind a curtain, and I couldn't access them. But what's your advice to anyone who believes, who comes from backgrounds like you and I? We don't get access to these fancy art inner parties when we're starting out. We stay in our bubble, we won't go out and travel as much because it's expensive to travel. What is your advice? If you were to do it right now, again, you were to go back right again, you just left the biscuit factory. Yeah, you've got all the knowledge that you've got as a fantastic global CEO. What would you do? What was your advice to young Charlie, young Abdul, Jenny? What would you do? I'm not going to say it's easy because it isn't when you're from that sort of background. But you've got to have some belief in determination, right? Without that belief in determination, I think you displayed by meeting how many potential investors without that it's difficult to succeed because these things don't land on a clip for you because we don't have the connections. So you've got to go out and find them. You've got to meet them. So even then when I was about 17 or 18, the way my way in was I wrote to tens of companies, tens of companies. Very limited, I've been a way to work in the biscuit factory, but I was studying. So I wrote to probably, I wrote to KPMG Melika, the countancy firm explaining who I was, what I was, how I could potentially have value, why I was interested in that business. And we want some responded. And all they need is one response. You need one, don't say that, just opens the door and maybe you don't get that opportunity, but it gives you the confidence and maybe they point you in a different direction. And I said to KPMG, I applied for a summer internship, and I applied to Rhodes and I actually KPMG responded and said they didn't have a summer internship, it was too late. But they had this one week residential course in Birmingham, and if I wanted to, I could go there and I did and at the end of it, they offered me an interview. And that's all it takes is one, right? I've never shared this with how I got my first investment. So I grew up in Essex, and when you're in Essex is a different type of culture. It's all about what you're wearing, what you look like. That's what it's like. So I was kind of convinced to use a sunbed, which was something. So I went into the sunbed shop and the day I went in and the year this guy had chains everywhere across Essex, the day I went into the sunbed shop, he was in there. I was like, oh, you've got a business, how is it called? Interesting entrepreneurship. He said, let's meet for a coffee. And I saw I went in for a coffee and in a coffee shop, he agreed to give me 100 pounds and pound. Wow. It goes straight to your point. It takes one. Yeah. Right? And that amount of thousand pounds turned into four million. Because you get one. And then you get another one and it grows. So what I'm hearing, which I love, is you need to put yourself out there. You do. You need to ask the questions whether that's in the full more application, a letter speaking. You're in this company, KPMG. Who do you know? Right. Right. Exactly. That's exactly right. You get tired, but you have to put yourself out there. His goal is the world's leading insurer for Kinepp and Ronson. So biscuits to banking. Yes. Tell me how that happened because I love biscuits and love putting money in the bank. So I'm really excited for this part. And I know there's things in between, but we're going to skip those bits, KPMG and the attack and media company. How did you get into banking? Well, I think it's worthwhile just stepping into at least one of it. Okay. Let's do that because it is a root into banking. So anyway, after KPMG, I went into the technology media sector. So I was bursting with ideas. I'd be age of 27, 28. And I thought, well, if I join a business that's doing really well, I'm not going to get to try anything because, well, I don't have enough experience. I haven't done anything yet. So I just happened to be approached by a company that was, I didn't know they were going through that process. But in the last interview, the group CFO said, look, I was under ideas or going to talk about it. They said we're filing for bankruptcy protection. Do you still want to join? I thought, awesome. This is great. I'm going to love it. So yes, I will join and then they gave me a choice of three businesses and asked them which was the worst performing. And they said the South Business Unit said that's what I'd like to join. And that's where I was. So I joined a bank account company and the worst business performing, the worst performing business in that bank account company. So because I thought, here's where I can try out all my untested ideas. And I did. And some of them worked. I love that. I love that. Go and join a business as underperforming where you can go in and make a mark because they're looking for solutions, right? Don't say. If I go back to what I was saying earlier, soft problems. Oh, you're a big art one, aren't you? The bigger problems you can find this off, then one is, it's you're testing yourself, but you're also demonstrating that you can really add value to people around you and to business. I also had an awesome group of people working with me. They were just incredible team, very focused on what we're trying to achieve. That then took me on the banking. So I got to a particular stage with this company where I kind of gone through the ranks relatively quickly. But it wasn't quite big enough to give me all the training and the rounded experiences that I needed. So I was speaking to some headhunters. And so if you want to. That's one of the experience you're going to go to banking. But banks don't hire people. This was back in the mid 2000s. They're not hire people if you haven't been trained and brought up in banking. And for me, that was like a red flag to a boat, which is well, that's another challenge. It's a problem to be overcome. And so what I asked the head and toe was, though, just get me one interview please. If you just let me have one go and then we'll see. And the rest of this really, I got an interview, met a great guy, a gentleman by the name of Tim Tukki, who then hired me into Lloyd Bank. And I was there for just over three years as the finance director of the consumer bank. So, a very interesting experience because it was also, and if you're looking for big problems, it was also just the year or 18 months before the global financial crisis hit. So that was a really interesting and actually challenging time to be working in banking when it seemed that the whole banking infrastructure was going to melt down around you. And having a calm head, having that determination to succeed and having a great team around you of like-minded individuals, we're just gonna come in and get on with it and try and do the best they can for customers who are relying on you day in, day out. We need most of the time. So, Trouble doesn't find you, you find trouble and you sort of act. 'Cause you go into organizations, you go, "Oh, what can I do to make it better?" I guess so, I mean, I think it's something like when I look back on, and that's been a pattern and a character trait. That, yes, I've looked forward. There is look forward, problems too solved. One of the things I find really interesting is exciting. And you're really helping, you're helping customers, you're helping colleagues, helping the business thrive. And it's a lot of fun. How did you go from banking into insurance? So, again, this is where connections are important because I didn't know there was an opportunity insurance, but a, a put a head under the industry that I'd met 10 years before, gave me a call. So, I'd like you to meet this gentleman who's running an insurance company. I was very happy where I was. I said, "You know, I'm very happy. "I really want to take that time." But she knows me very well. She said, "I think you're just gonna, "you're gonna really get on with it. "You're really gonna get on with it." And I met him, and we did. And he offered me a job. But the job was interesting, right? In that, I asked him what the job was. He said, "I'm not sure." What are we gonna do? See, we're awesome fun. Well, it's gonna be an interesting journey. And I left a job at a really good institution having a lot of fun as a finance director of the consumer bank, basically, or lots of people working with me. And I went to the other job where I wasn't exactly sure what it was, but I was probably some fun. And I had nobody. It was just me on my own, and I was given an assistant. So you got off of this job. You didn't know what it was, but you promised a lot of fun. Yeah. So you went from a stable, sound, knowing what's going on, organization, and job, to a role where you think this could lead in any direction. Right. But I'm gonna have fun. I'm gonna take the risk and go for it. Yes. So what happened? I had a lot of fun. You had a lot of fun. I saw which fun. I learned a whole new industry. And I will say I found my place, because insurance is something I absolutely love. And I did not much about it when I was in banking or in media and tech. It is such a useful thing, useful product and service that insurance companies provide to society. So I find it's good for the soul. I've got to work every day, knowing that if we get this right, and we're trying to be able to get it right and better, then we're helping a lot of people. We're helping people build homes, live out their dreams, and that feels good. The concept of insurance has been around a long time, but the modern version of the insurance contact was first established about 700 years ago in Italy. I use the same. We need to build more money powers for young people. And if young people can build their toolkit of money powers and in money powers, there's pensions, there's insurance, there's savings, there's investments, there's debt managing good and bad debt, but we won't obviously get into that. But the insurance part, where we let the next generation down so far, and what do we need to do to kind of get them to understand it and. Yeah, insurance is not always straightforward to understand. And we haven't done a fantastic job in demystifying essentially what it takes. So there's a whole lot of education, communication, outreach that we as an industry need to do to help people understand. Essentially not just the youth, but people in general, because there's a huge amount of under-insurance that happens that goes on. And for me, because you know, the most sort of prosaic examples, we have. One of the things that we specialize in is small businesses. And often, the small businesses have one employee, is the person who runs a business. And what we are, the products that we have, can really help them avoid effectively going under because they made one mistake, which anybody can make. It takes that bit of risk away from me that, okay, if you just have a damn day at work in making a mistake, we can come in and protect. And we can also give you a bit of advice on how to avoid those situations. And therefore, you can go on to fight and build a bigger business, help your family. We avoid that risk of doing. But getting that message out there, we have a very fantastic job on all the benefits of insurance. Both the product, but also the fantastic careers that you can build within insurance business. So that's something I'm pretty keen on doing is that outreach program to whether we give it to the communities that are around each of the offices, whether you operate to universities, to schools, and to the wider sort of business community as well. We sit down again in 25 years time. You still got really coer and looking for a. Where would you say the insurance industry's gone? What does it look like? Still in the industry. What has happened? Hopefully, we're going to speed up someone on a business. 25 years from now. But in terms of the industry, the sort of things that we're focused on now, which I hope over time really make a huge difference. It's really reducing the barriers or obstacles to buying insurance. And that can be, I don't really understand it. It doesn't really apply to me. I don't know how to buy it. And making all those aspects of buying insurance really simple. So technology is going to play a big part in that. But also communication, helping people understand. We were already beginning to use aspects of generative AI to reduce the friction, reduce the complication of some of our products to reduce the price wherever one can. But really, just to make that what I would call the business, the customer journey, the point from which you think you're needing insurance, the point at which you actually have to be able to buy, make it really easy, as easy as possible. And we've been at this a long time. The interest has been at this for hundreds of years. I don't know how much difference we've been making over 25 years, but I hope buying insurance is much better understood. But we have a big job to do there. And secondly, I hope the journey to buying insurance is a lot easier than it can be today. Because it's such a useful product, such a useful service. That reduces risks and allows you to go in and live your life, and live out your dreams, and build your business, and buy your homes and cars. I agree. And I think you started that journey already by being on the show, because you've just made it really simple and clear what insurance means, where it's going, why it's important. So, what, as CEO, I've never got time for all one or two more questions, but as CEO, what's one fundamental thing that you know? Because you jointly, you joined ESOX in 2016, you've CFO, you've become group CEO in 2022. What's one life lesson that, from CFO to CEO, now you're CEO that has taught you about life that you wish you knew back in that restaurant or biscuit factory or KPMG or the tech company or Lloyds. What, what's something that you've learnt recently that has now become one of your life principles? What's the couple actually? It's not quite life principle, but you know, what one of the things that I've learnt as the group CEO is that, or a couple of things I've learnt as a group CEO, you have a magic wand when you become the group CEO. And if you wave it, things happen, people just do stuff and you could be very careful, very careful, using it very sparingly, because people do stuff and sometimes that's not what you want to happen and people listen to every word and nuance when you're speaking and therefore you've got to be authentic, you're going to see what's on your mind, but also be aware about how people might interpret it. So that's something that I've been a lesson over the last couple of years. And the other one is that on the one hand as a group CEO, you own everything and you're accountable for everything, but in reality you don't own anything because you can't do anything. You can only do whatever needs to be done through your team and therefore having most brilliant people around you who will solve the big problems is so essential and it's more essential as a group CEO than any any other role, but I would say it's a lifelong lesson that you can pick up through from day one, whether you're a waiter, having some great people around you there or you're a biscuit factory or a consultancy, it's always about people. So surround yourself with good people, watch where you've swin that magic wand because your voice can actually make an impact for the good old bad. So choose your words and your voice carefully while choosing your words carefully, be authentic in the process. That's it. What I've found out about life lesson and my final question, are you ready? What should you do, Vape Flip? What gets you out of bed in the morning to flip the do they? What gets me out of bed in the morning? I look forward, genuinely look forward to coming into work because it's such an energetic place because of the people that I work with and at the end of the day, I'll be looking forward to going home to see my wife and children. So these people give me energy. Well, I just want to say thank you for joining me on the show, for spending some of your time, I know you're really busy seeing how changing the insurance industry day by day, but just thank you for coming in, being so authentic, so honest, sharing your knowledge. You didn't have to do this, but you care about the next generation. So thank you. No, it's all thank you. [Music]