Speaker 1Hi and welcome to Illumination by Modern Campus, your go-to podcast for conversations about transformation and innovation across higher education. I'm your host Shauna Cox and I'm excited to dive into today's conversation. Today I'm speaking with Catherine Chandler Critchlow who is Dean of the School of Continuing Studies at the University of Toronto. We explore how institutions design stackable flexible learning pathways while balancing learner needs with long-term institutional sustainability. Let's get into it. Catherine, welcome to the Illumination podcast. Thank you and it's a pleasure to be here. I am so excited for our conversation. We're going to be here talking about designing new learning pathways as we all know that the workforce needs are constantly evolving. So I want to kick off our conversation and first ask how are institutions kind of rethinking the design of learning pathways to remain both academically rigorous and economically sustainable? Thanks so much for that question. It's so relevant
Speaker 2now that we have a number of changes in our different sectors, a number of changes in the demographic groups that are in the workforce and so we're seeing an increased need for or by employers to ensure that whatever we are developing and working on with them, aligns to current and future strategic directions, that reflects the needs and concerns of their employers and employees and also to ensure that the learning strategies that are used really reflect the diversity of the workforce in terms of learning styles, learning techniques, learning technologies and others. So there's a real emphasis I would say in total on alignment of what is designed, how it's designed and how it's designed. So we're going to talk about that in just a moment. So what is designed and developed to the needs of learners and the strategic goals and priorities of the organization?
Speaker 1Absolutely and I think when there's a lot of decisions that have to be made a lot of times you know it's really important to look at the data. So what sort of signals maybe that aren't hardcore data or data points are most important for institutions when deciding what new you know credentials, certificates or pathways are actually worth investing not only from that learner demand standpoint from also from a long-term revenue standpoint?
Speaker 2I think that the greatest data point that we note is whether the training and programs that are available are stackable because there's a recognition that people can continue to do their own lifelong learning, they can do their own development of new programs and identify pathways where learners can come in at any point in the system and continue to build their own knowledge and capabilities. So I would say we are looking at opportunities in organization and looking at opportunities where they can use applications that are really more along the lines of micro-credentials and others so that people can take those specific modules that they need to have to upskill or cross-skill but that they are stackable and that it can become something that in the long term can build out towards a certificate or some other form of designated programming and ensure that those credentials are recognized within the workforce so there's a lot more ability on targeting learning and style and content to the learner and in a format that's easy for them to access.
Speaker 1How do you balance flexibility so like modular and stackable kind of short cycle learning with the operational realities of scaling those offerings in a responsible manner?
Speaker 2Well the reality of it is that you know once you're dealing with things like micro-credentials and other micro-learning techniques it's quite easy to ensure that you can have the operational guidance for how those are introduced you know these are smaller modules they're soundbite almost in terms of a long-term certificate program or any other program that spans multiple years and others and so it's a real opportunity to balance micro-learning efficiently because of the nature of the training in itself and because learners are able to tap into the programming as needed and align to their specific needs. So I would say that the use of the micro-credentials which is I would say are probably arguably the easiest form of providing learning to broad audiences and in different pathways it's quite manageable from
Speaker 1an operational perspective. So what distinguishes a learner pathway that is going to simply respond to a market trend and kind of be more reactive compared to those that are going to kind of create a more enduring value for the learners and kind of institutions alike?
Speaker 2I think that's an excellent question because you know learner values are not necessarily totally aligned to organizational values or institutional values and so it's how does one begin to understand where the alignment is between what learners are wanting to take away for their own personal development, their personal advancement, their career development, that are aligned to where the institution sees it wants to focus on different forms of capacity building within the organization and I think the real opportunity lies in taking the time to understand what drives value for the learner, what drives value for them to be able to go after particular types of content, to go after different types of learning and also in tandem to understand what is the organization's value to the learner. What drives value for the learner to be able to go after the organization looking for and I think it's when you bring those two together and try to align those that you begin to develop programming that is of value to the learner but also of sustainable value to the organization. It's more of an art than a skill and so it requires an intentional approach to listening to both the learner and the organizational needs and to align those in a manner that is seamlessly integrated for the learner and for the organization. It's a fantastic opportunity and I think a really good time for us in the those who are supporting upskilling and cross-skilling within industry to begin to bring more and more pathways that are responsive but at the same time helping to support directions of an organization.
Speaker 1And I think historically it's more well known that a CE unit is really that innovation hub that is going to create the programs that are responding to the market and are a little more agile than the traditional structure of an institution. So how do you see CE units kind of shaping institutional growth strategies while staying aligned with the broader academic missions
Speaker 2and those workforce outcomes? Well I think that's a very fundamental question if I can phrase it differently. What's the value of the CE units? And I think the value of the CE unit is to be able to maintain that agility, that flexibility to understand where organizations are going and to continue to be at the leading edge of innovation and to be able to drive some of that innovation based on what it's hearing and seeing for the upskilling and cross-skilling of staff and the credentialization where possible through things like micro-credentials. So in fact what we're looking at when we think of CE units is to be defining pathways that allow people to be able to move in and out of particular delivery techniques, move in and out of particular areas of content, people who may be coming from different sectors and bring in prior learning with them that they can apply into a new institution that they're moving to. So the period of really having greater connectivity across sectors and connectivity across content areas I think is very much here and requires units, CE units to be really focused on areas of innovation that allow those cross-pollinating initiatives to take place. I think that you know a lot of that is supported by using what I'd call you know more agile co-design and co-development and co-delivery programming that allows us to take the learnings and the needs from different areas and bring those together in a meaningful sense for both the learner and the organization. It's an exciting time for CE and it's an exciting time because organizations are beginning to themselves be more innovative and define where they're going and it means that we too must be at that cutting edge to have that same level of flexibility, innovative thinking and creativity as we build our pathways for learners that align to the needs of
Speaker 1organizations. Absolutely and I think what's so great is that in this time of innovation we have these units who have been positioned and kind of being that innovative for such a long time we can learn from them. We're not starting from scratch so it's not so daunting and we can kind of collaborate and partner with each other. So I think it's really important that we have these units who have been positioned and kind of being that innovative for such a long time we can partner with each other which is what I think for Higher Ed. And those are all the questions I have for you but is there anything else that you would like to add in terms of work you guys are doing, new learner pathways, where you kind of see Higher Ed going, anything that I missed that you want to talk about? Well as I said you know I think that
Speaker 2one of the things that is happening in the CE space is being able to respond to broader changes in the communities and in countries. I would say that I've never seen a peer that has such immense mobility of talent and so the notion of how we ensure that people who are coming into the system from different environments understand the specific needs and the specific requirements in a region really are part of a network. Being part of systems that allow them to determine where they fit within the needs of an organization, where specifically they need to upskill and cross-skill, and also where they need to develop those essential skills that are required in a specific environment. It's an exciting time for sure. And I think it's a great time for CEE units and organizations to be able to have that sort of on the ground agility and flexibility to be able to build out new programming in relatively short time.
Speaker 1Absolutely. Well, Catherine, again, thank you so much for coming on. Before I let you go, I'm going to ask a bonus question that I selfishly like to ask. If there is a book or types of books that you would recommend to somebody can be higher ed related or not, what would you recommend someone to read?
Speaker 2Well, what an interesting question. But to be frank, I am an avid reader and I have a range of different types of books I read, different themes, different areas of content. But I would say that my most exciting area is anything that deals with sport and especially team sports that require people to be strategic and to work together and to observe team dynamics that really support success and growth. And so if anybody, if anybody's interested in those types of areas, read a Formula One book. You learn a lot. You can learn a lot about what happens and what does not happen to support a team. That would be my recommendation.
Speaker 1I love it because it feels so out of left field to just randomly have like a Formula One. I've never had a sports related book, but I feel like it makes a lot of sense when you really think about it with the team and the strategy collaboration. Absolutely. I have never read a Formula One book, but I feel like I do now.
Speaker 2There's a wide range. The teams are generally international, so they all have their different approaches. And I really think it provides a snapshot into when you think of teamwork and team development and support. You know, we conceptually talk about cultural differences within organizations, the ability to listen, to understand, to communicate. You see it all in a Formula One team. Highly recommend you pick one and enjoy it.
Speaker 1Amazing. Oh, thank you so much. I feel like I'm going to pick up an F1, and then watch it on TV as well, because you can't not watch it on TV.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Amazing. Let me know your goals. Yeah, I will.
Speaker 1And Catherine, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate the insights and the really fun recommendation of that book.
Speaker 2You're welcome. Enjoy the rest of the day.
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