Casting Culture with Jatinder Chera

I think it's. And I just hit a moment of S.J. and he was talking about one of his pet peeves. Is it his naming pronounce wrong? I'm just not a dog. I just felt wrong. I get so many spellings and I'm like, "What spellings in here?" Well, I think most people change it to like, "Belinda" in their head. So like, instead of an ER, it's "Jetinda" like, as if it was "Belinda" and I'm like, "Mmm, there's an ER on the end." I don't know. And it's so weird because. There's like an app that exists that's literally part of my neck. The whole few letters of my name are already populating app and still they go for. Tinder. Yeah. And they still go for like, "Belinda." I'm like, "Cool, cool, cool, cool." Did they try and shorten it to Jat or anything like that? I think it happens a lot in casting agents that they just use initials sometimes. So there is like this aggressive like. Hi Jay! And I'm like, "Is that just because we've got to that friend level where we can go to nicknames or is it just like the laziness of typing "attender" on the end of it? J.C.? No. It does happen. It does happen. It has happened. J.C.? No. Jatin. Thank you for coming onto the podcast. We were really happy that you're coming on because we've never had anybody coming from casting. You're our first guest. But you're also casting director now. So congratulations to that. Thank you. I have a bit of imposter syndrome when someone calls me a casting director because it's just a weird. It's like a weird thing. Like I'm doing it right now. So technically I am the thing. You know when you go to the dentist and they make you feel that form out every time you're like, "You have these details already but they make you feel it out every time." And then it comes to that question where it says "occupation." And you're like, "Ah, can I say casting director?" Or does it sound a bit like, "Does it sound like, yeah, I'm casting director?" So I hover around that question for a long time and then I'm just like casting because it seems like a little bit less protected. It's vague. It's vague and I'm not saying, "I'm a director." Director just feels like a big. Like it's interesting because in America, and I don't know how many people have. I only have noticed this now because I work in casting but they don't like to use the word director on cast. Like they don't want. Don't like to say you're a casting director. So whenever you watch an American big budget film and then you get those titles where it says casting. In an American production it will always say casting by. So like casting by Francine Maze, like it won't say casting director. Because it's almost like they don't want to give them. Like it's like you have the gift of being a casting director but you don't have the gift of using the word director quite yet. So it's like, whereas in the UK it will mainly say casting director. And when you're explaining to people who don't work in the industry, do they think you're a filmmaker? I don't think they do think you're a filmmaker because I think there's a very clear role of what it means to be a casting director. I think for a long time there's been like an invisibility to it because it as an actor or as someone who doesn't work in the industry at all. It's a job that happens behind a door. And like you have versions in you. I think if you don't work in the industry you have versions in your head of what you think someone who works in casting does. And I think it's been fed a lot by media, by things like the X-Factor and sort of reality TV of like people sitting on a panel and maybe having a buzzer and going, "You're not it, you're it." And I guess that's a very televised version of what it means to working casting, but in truth like it is a very specific job. And I don't think. even though I have imposter syndrome saying that I'm a casting director, I don't think it's like a big deal. I don't think people confuse you and think, "Oh, so you're the director?" Like it's a separate job. Yeah, maybe one day I'll feel like worthy of the title casting director, but for now I'm just happy to be casting. Why do you feel imposter syndrome? I think growing up I've always fed myself loads of TV and film like I was one of those kids that was always in the cinema. So like when you see those names I think because of that invisibility of who that person is and it's always just been a name. So it always just say casting director, Gina J, Shaheen Beg and you just see that name and it would have like this like wonder to it and you didn't really know who they were and how they created those companies and put them together. So I think because I'm kind of right at the beginning of that, it's like I don't want to call myself like an Olympian before I'm an Olympian. Like I'm still very much Percy Jackson in his first year of school before he realizes that like Poseidon is his dad and all those other things. I'm still in those early stages so I don't want to be like, "Yeah, Poseidon's my dad." I just want to be like, "I'm working casting and maybe one of my parents is like a Greek god, I don't know." So I'm kind of like I'm working up to it but right now I just I don't want people to think I'm pretentious or anything like that. I just want people to think, "Oh he's cool when he happens to working casting rather than, "Oh he's like a cast." And I don't know if people do think that that could be my head thing. Like I don't think people are like, "Oh my god it's like, but I think like that." But we definitely thought he's cool when you get him and he's in casting. Oh thanks. Let's rewind a little bit so you were an actor? I was an actor yes. How long were you acting for? For a good 10 to 12 years or a long time and I guess the best way I can explain my move into casting was I think when you're young and you're part of the British education system and you're brown or you're a person of color you kind of go to your school and you make friends with the people who are your friends and you don't see things like ethnicity and gender and sexuality because you're just like, "I'm friends with this guy because he's fine and we can do these weird games together in the playground." And I think that's great and I think the education systems great and teachers kind of they say to you, "Oh Jitinder you can be whatever you want to be if you just work really hard at the thing you want to do." Like with hard work and dedication and commitment and education and all those kind of key words that you get when you're at school, you can do that thing. And I think I always knew as a kid I was a creative and my parents picked up on it quite early because I was quite I always like drawing pictures and being part of drama rather than being like, "Oh let me tell you about fractions" which commonly a lot of Asian people think that you know I could be an apple genius but honestly I'm not. So I was like, "I'm creative so let me lean into that." And my mum was like, "Lean into it like go to dance, go to drama, find what your passion is." So acting was very much my passion and I did all the things that those teachers said to me, "I worked really hard, I dedicated a lot of time to it." And opportunities were there when I was in the education system. There was no you can play this role or you can play that role defined by this characteristic of yourself. So it was very much like that normal audition process and if the school musical was Greece, I could be Kinniki, I could be Danny, I could be whoever depending on my talent and how well I did in the audition. But I very much thought that that's what life meant, like the best person for the role gets the job. And I do think to an extent in casting, that's what we try to do, the best person for the role. But I never thought that when I graduated and I was no longer with those kids and those teachers in the education system that I was going to be defined by a characteristic that I never really thought about a lot which was my brownness. I think growing up here in this country, I guess you have whatever opportunities your friends have. So like if they're playing with my E-Max, you're playing with my E-Max, like it's the same. And then to do some sort of training, I trained in musical theatre for three years. I came out and I was like, "I can go for everything, I can go for, you know, if I want to be in Phantom, I can be in Phantom." And it was like my first audition was for a show called The Far Pavilion, which was like a South Asian musical at the Charles Pritheta. And at the time I just thought, "Oh yeah, this is because they want to see me." And I never really thought too much into it. And then sort of time went on and every role I was going for was always a South Asian role. And I sort of was like, hang on a minute. I was like, "What happened to like me just being just this really blank canvas going in, doing the audition, reading the sides, meeting the people, and then being like, you know what, you are a tom, you are a this." And I realized, hang on a minute, maybe we are really defined by our outwardly features, because it's hard to tell who a person is inside unless they express that to you and it's hard to express that in an audition because it's such a quick amount of time. So how do you say, "Oh my god, this is who I am, this is who I feel I am, and this is my soul." So you present what they see on the outside and then you read the lines as every other actor does. And I got to a point where in 2018 I was doing a production of East-Diseased at the Bolton Octagon playing Salim, having the absolute best time of my life like, "Oh, many East-Diseased." But I had this like out of body moment, you know like in the Matrix where like Neo gets kicked and like a part of his body comes out and then like regenerates back into his body. And I was like, hang on a minute, I'm in East-Diseased, which was a play that was done originally by the Marsha Theatre Company in 1996 and transferred to the Royal Court. And now I'm doing it in 2018, so like 22 years later, so my out of body, Jettinder, looking at my actual body, was like, "How far have you moved as a British Asian actor?" And where do you think you can address that? Like, where can you be going for other roles? So in my head it was like, "It must be casting, it must be the casting directors that are deciding that Jettinder's East-Diseased or Jettinder's actor in the history boys." And I was like, maybe if I get onto that side of the industry, maybe as a non-white voice, I can speak about those things in a way where I feel comfortable because I am the thing. So if the panel was always predominantly one thing, even if I had the smallest voice on there because I was the newest person to the panel, it wouldn't be hard for me to say, "Actually, could maybe this role be a bit more like this?" Or could we see more people, could we just open this pool wider? Because I want to go back, I want to rewind back to my youth where anyone can be anything. And like, if you want to be like Joseph or Mary, you can go for that and your teacher would be like, "Yeah, you're a Joseph." But if you also want to be something really small and you want to be like frankincense or Mary, you can be that thing too. But there was freedom and I want to bring that freedom back. back into casting. So while I was having the out of body experience, I was like, I love East disease, I'm having the best time, but also I don't want lead to be like 20 years later, another jatinder that's doing that and thinking how am I still here because it's such a fantastic play and it's still so relevant and so funny, but there's also so many more things that are relevant if you're South Asian as well, which people don't pick up on as much because they're like, do they do those things or are they slightly different? And I'm here to tell you we're doing exactly the same things as everyone else, therefore we want to play the same roles, therefore let me go to casting and have those conversations. So that's kind of so what then happened? Did you just ring up your agent one day and be like, I'm out? No, so what happened was I have this false sense of confidence in everything I do and I think it comes from having an background, a background story in acting. So like, you know, when I would go for job interviews, which would be my side hustles when I was acting, I would always nail those interviews because I just didn't care about the job. So whatever that job was to make my money so I could live and breathe and you know, go to pray every now and then I would not give a shit. So I would just do that into you and nail it and they'd be like, oh my god, we love you. You're the best thing and I'd be like, but just remember, this is my side. This is like the baked beans. This isn't the main event. And I'd get those jobs. But then when it came to acting, I would become the side event. And I was like, how can those people not see what those people see? How can those hate child departments not see what those casting directors, I'm the same person. Why am I different in different interview scenarios? So when I thought about it and I'd had that out of body experience, I was like, I'm going to apply for casting and also I'm going to get it straight away because like truly, why wouldn't it be me? So there was this kind of chance moment where on Twitter, the national theatre were looking for a new casting assistant. And I was like, that's me. That couldn't be anyone else is absolutely me. So I'm going to just do this application even though I have no experience and I'm not skilled at all. So I followed that and I did the application and I had like a couple of interviews. And then here's the cliffhanger, I didn't get the job. And I was like, what? I was like, you know, like that Oprah Gifford, she's like, what? Make a mark. And I was like, I can't believe it. How am I not the guy? But I did, you know, I had a really great relationship with Alice Tacuma, who is the head of casting at the national. And it was kind of like, you're not quite ready yet. You've not really done anything. You're wildly confident. You have all these ideas and I really support that. But at this point, it's not quite right for you. And I was like, I was like, I had mixed emotions because I was like, I was trying a thing that I'd never done before. So I was like, it's fine that I didn't get it. But I was also like, why wasn't it me? So I was torn. I was not really in brookly a torn, to be honest. But then I was like, do you know what? I was like, I'm going to leave it for a while. And then the pandemic hit. Panny DK Min and I was like, okay, now I'm before I wasn't acting. Now I'm definitely not acting because there ain't nothing out there. So I was like, oh, and then Gina J and Shaheen Bague and Jane Arnell, they were setting up this brand new casting course. Again, this was being advertised on Twitter. So I saw it and I was like, again, wild confidence comes like riding back in. And I'm like, here I am again, I'm going to do this course. So I applied for this course. And this time my wild confidence worked. And I got onto this amazing course. We were like the first, we were the first like cohort of this course. And it was a collaboration with the National Film and Television School. And it was basically, it was once a week, one night a week on a Wednesday and they would teach you the skills to be a casting assistant, not director really. And I thought I knew it all when I walked in. Like I was that kid that walked in in like his vast E Jackie. And I was like, best believe I'm the quarterback in this situation. And then I got there and I literally knew nothing. And I so quickly became I wasn't the quarterback anymore. I was like, I was pinned against the lockers. Yeah, I was just the, I was the mascot where someone's rolled you over and then you can't even get back up again because like the suit is so big. So I was like, oh, this is actually way more complicated and specific. And it's such a skill set. And it was what was so wild to me was that there had never been a course that existed before. So all that meant was that everyone that ever worked in casting before me had kind of found their way themselves and learn on the job. And it's so with that there's so many other vocational courses for other jobs for there wasn't for this. So I did the course and it was like six to eight months and kind of as I graduated, Alice D'Couma sort of came back out and was like, there's a role going at the National Theatre and we'd love you to come and board and help us with casting. And obviously I was like, that was what I wanted the first time around. So I was like, I am there. So that's kind of this was straight away as you finished. It was kind of straight away. It kind of overlap. So I graduated in May 2021. And then and I'll kind of came up to me around about that time and was like, there's a job going in the in the office. And it was so I I remembered graduating. We graduated from the BFI on like a Wednesday and the Tuesday after I started at the National Theatre. And then that was the point where I was like, I've got to have the conversation with my agent because up until that point, why would I not go for auditions? Because if something came through and it was that moment where I was going to have a moment like I wasn't, you know, going to throw it away until I was the thing. And I also think there's a massive clash that you can't work in casting and be an actor because you can't be that guy that's at the table that's like, do you know what? I think I've got the perfect person for you and just swap seeds. So I knew that when I made that decision, it had to be final, but I think going through the pandemic and then doing the course, I had time to it wasn't it wasn't like a wax strip decision. It was more of like a threading. It was like a slower process. So I I knew by that time that actually I think I could be good at this thing. And I had a lot of knowledge from being an actor about not only about actors and the people that were out there because they kind of were the people I saw all the time, but also I knew what it meant to sit on that chair in the room. And like there's a specific energy, I think you have to have to be an actor and put yourself in that vulnerable situation constantly and then be rejected and be like, oh, I'm back to it's just such a weird thing to always be back to square one when you finish the job. In any other job, there's like, there's progression and there's, you know, you can move up the ladder, but in acting, it's almost like you have to start again every time and go back to the roots and kind of find a new character and do that thing again, which is great and amazing. It's the exciting thing about acting, but also really hard on like finance and mental health and then going again, those side jobs again and kind of feeling like unworthy again because you're back doing something you hate doing. So I knew what it meant and how important it is to be in that chair and I kind of wanted to not only do this thing for diversity and inclusion and really think about how we think about roles and who should play what, but also have that that that sympathy and that empathy for the person in that chair and make them feel as comfortable as possible because it's such an uncomfortable fake scenario to be in every time and to do that thing. I was like, I think that's what I will use. I don't like using phrases like this, but I felt like that was my USP, like my unique selling point, that I could be that guy that knew both sides of the table so I could always see what was happening 360 rather than 180. So then you get into the national, does that caught about confidence come back? A little bit because I was like, oh, you realise, you know that you were like, then you realise I was just tender, we were missing just tender, it's just tender that we need here, let's bring him back. So like, what about came a little bit? I didn't have the shoulder pads, but I had like, I had the t-shirt thing on and I went in and yeah, it was everything that you think a national thing is going to be. It's like it's a place of like creativity and I think what really drew me to that building is probably the same thing that draws actors there is that I wanted to be in a space where I was just filled with artists all the time. You know, like when you watch like those dramas like those HBO dramas like Girls and stuff and they're just like living that bohemian life and they're just like, where artists and stuff? I wanted to be like, and I basically I just wanted to be a ticket so I was like, I'm going to go to the national theatre because I can be surrounded by people that are like titans in their fields whether it be casting or lighting or you know, just all those other fields that make up a whole production and I thought that building is so big, there's three theatres, I will just be constantly, you know, living that hair experience, the musical hair where I'll just be free and be like a child of Aquarius or whatever that song is. So I went there and I had like an amazing time and worked on some great things and met some really great people so it was really- And you had that feeling every day that you wanted? No, I guess like you walk in with that feeling when you get your lanyard and you first kind of go through the stage door but then you know how quickly everything just becomes not like things that I should be exciting become normal. So like you walk past things and you're like, no one else would see that or do that in their job but you're also like, it's just that, it's just that thing and you're kind of going into it and a lot of the job is creative but then there are a lot of office parts of the job as well so sometimes you are just by an episode printer that's not working and you're like, would someone fix his paper job? Because honestly, there must be someone in the building that can address this printer. So there are moments of like that I would say the greatest moments of working in casting is where you see that thing that you created. So you go to that first preview or I went to like a dress run but the first preview the press night like when you watch that thing that you've worked on for so long and obviously in casting your your kind of in the process quite early and you get some early drafts of the script so you read that thing and you imagine that thing for a longer than the actors because they kind of come in later. So you've been imagining this thing for such a long time. time and then all these people, like I said from there, their fields, whether it be the set design, as the wardrobe, all the collaborations start happening and you kind of step away once you've cast the actors. Your job is kind of done so you're really early but then your job is complete really early as well because then the other people kind of come into play and do their part of the job. And then the next time you see it is right at the end so you're like, oh my god this is like, and it was such an emotional feeling because as an actor like the emotional feeling, for me I loved live acting the most. So the emotional experience was that moment where you finished and you were at the curtain call and everyone's clapping and you'd be like, that's for me, even though it was probably for the lead but you were like, it's all mine. So in casting it's watching that thing but again it's the Neo out of body thing because for so long I'd been on that side that to then just be sitting in the audience but be so proud of this thing, it is like it is your child for the time that you're working on it and like you you're incredibly proud and you're like, oh my child's gone to school and he's got through key stage 3 and he's like, and then you've got that weird South Asian thing as well what your parents like you must do good at school and stuff. So I've probably got a little bit of that residual thing in me like, my child's doing so well and he's doing better than you. So I was, yeah you know like that kind of good illustrations, me sketch where they would always be like everything was Indian. So I was like that, I was deeply, deeply proud of it and the work I did there and just everything I think the great thing about the National is that it's like a it's a place to learn as well and I think in different offices it can be different because the pace is different in every casting office so the opportunities to learn skills that you really need to go out there if you want to go out on your own or just move to the next level the National Theatre is a great place to do that because there's just so many people you can turn to when you're and it's not always the person that's directly in your department it can just be anyone from it and you can be like I'm struggling on this thing, how this usually happened so for me that was that kind of was like my schooling as well as like the course but kind of my on the job schooling. It says on the website that they cost about 350 actors every year, a average of 25 productions. So how many actors did you see? Do we see? Do we see? They will start sort of, do they will start looking like one? You know like when you look at a picture for too long you're like it's all the same now. No but you know what it's weird that you say that because I remember this like this prophecy when I was an actor that you know when time had passed and you hadn't got an audition for a while there was always that conversation you need a new headshot. I think it's time you got a new headshot and I'd always be like I need a new headshot you know I like this frame just really banging I think it's time to get a new like let's go to Michael Schell but then I think you know it's not it's it's a prophecy like in casting there's so many things you look at and the thing that is probably the least like that you glance at the headshot because you're looking if you're looking for something so when I was at the National I was looking for something very specific on the production I was on so I had to make sure that criteria was fulfilled but if it's a very open brief you glance at the headshot you kind of look at the credits it's hard job to go to as much theatre and watch as much screen as possible so a lot of the time we kind of we're all watching Telly we're all we're all like gorging all of that stuff so we have ideas of actors we like and we'd often we would get assigned projects at the National so you wouldn't all work across every single show because it would just be impossible to be like an expert on every single show but sometimes we'd have conversations in the office where it would be like I'm looking for it for this thing I want an actor that kind of fulfills this criteria maybe it's this very specific ethnicity and we'd have like an open chat about what we've watched recently had we seen anyone like that and we then all kind of collate our ideas and we'd sometimes create lists like that but there are also there's there's many different ways to create a list when you're going to bring actors in for an audition so I think some of the traditional routes that people know are via spotlight so that would be putting a breakdown on spotlight and sending it out to agents and personal managers and say this is the production these are the roles these are the playing ages these are the ethnicities and that's the way that I think most actors are taught it's done which it and that's true but there's so many other ways that we do it because we all come in with our own knowledge and our and our kind of we have specialisms and things and I guess because I'd come from being an actor and a South Asian actor one of my things was I just knew a lot about the South Asian actors that were out there so I was attached to the father of the assassin which was a play written by new parma chandra sucker and directed by Andrew Basingham in the Olivier but I just kind of I knew those people like I knew who they were and I knew what sort of made sense so it really worked in my favor but I think there's like a question as well for me like I love doing South Asian work and I love you know working with those actors because it felt like there was a need for it because when I first went into casting admittedly the biggest thing I wanted to do was to address moving diversity into productions that weren't set in a particular time or place because if you're casting a play and it's say in India yeah the cast is going to be Indian because it wouldn't make sense any other way or if you're casting a period piece it wouldn't make sense for people to have contemporary accents unless you're going for a really specific vibe where you're like oh this is set in 1910 but I'm going to do that Bridgerton thing when Ariana Grande comes in the cello if you're doing that then you can do contemporary bit if you're doing traditional you're going to stick to traditional so I think for me the thing I always wanted to do was how do we address diversity and the productions that aren't set in India how do we get those Indian actors into productions where they're not in Delhi but they're just in Hackney and so originally that was my big that was my big energy but then I got on to the father in the assassin and and we cast it and then I had a lot of conversations with the actors and the actors were like oh my god it's so great to see someone on the other side that like has a shared experience a shared lived experience and just kind of understands me innately in a way that didn't feel maybe the same before so then I felt this huge responsibility to then not only stick to my original manifesto which is you know bringing in every single person into every production and not waiting for a specific production but also to really kind of champion these actors as well because it was almost like they needed it there was a thirst for it and they kind of wanted it and they had conversations with me there about could we do this and could you like could you help the thing and then I was like at first I was like no I don't want it that's not but then I was like no I should like it's my responsibility there's not a lot of me me's in the casting industry right now so I should also lean into to South Asian actors and the people that I know and that I grew up with as well because I know that culture so well and when I say I know that culture so well I don't mean bindi's and henatatos I mean just like the the bringing up of that culture especially if you were a brown person brought up in the UK because it's weird you're experiencing all the same things like I said earlier like you're doing your GCSEs with your friends and like you're you know you're doing all those things that characters in shows like skin which skins did so well that the Asian people were still having sex they weren't waiting for them their mum to find their bride or they weren't and like those stories were being told a lot and it was I always felt like it was through like a lens that wasn't like a frosted lens like bathroom windows because it was someone else's view of what they think we do so yeah we can be we can be cool and like bindi's can be appropriated and stuff and people can wear them to coach Ella but like who are we really and who we are is just exactly the same as you remember we were at school together and we we used to do like the same things in the playground and then suddenly I became like the guy that you thought let's put an accent on that let's slap a turban on that let's you know let's do this thing and I was that's what I think I they're the conversations I want to have with creatives but I also like in the back of my mind still have like the imposter syndrome of like am I qualified or not enough to be in those spaces and say like I really want to like I want to do I want to fight the good fight and and I think that's why that's part of the reason why I set up on my own because with my name attached to the brand or whatever you want to call it if I do ever find myself in like a murky situation where I'm having a conversation and the people in the room are like who is this person that's having this conversation with me at least I will bear the brand and the onus and everything that comes with that I'll be scissors rolling that rock up the hill rather than me doing it where I'm employed by someone and I could be taking down like a hole into like I could be doing like a weanam music video whether it's gasoline and I throw the cigarette but it's not my building so I'm literally yes a great music video and yeah the moment is popping and I look great because there's like a lot happening like special effects but then that's not my building behind me so I'm like oh so I thought you know what let's just just put my name on it I'll have the conversations I'll probably get into some deep water but I think loads of people that have made change in the past and I'm talking about really important people that I shouldn't compare myself to but just people that have made change in whatever the thing is like not specifically in casting at some point you have to you have to make that decision and be like do I stay and just like carry on working in a place where I love it and I'm with these creatives and I'm living like that dream or do I go out and do I just like try and find my feet myself and some people might think he's wildly confident or he's a little bit arrogant because he's done this thing so early but there was really a motivation behind it and that motivation wasn't that I want to be really big bollocks it was more like I think I can do this better if I do it on my own and then just take full responsibility for my actions at all times. So this building that you're gonna build yeah what does it look like to you as in like visually it's really unglomerious because obviously in casting you you need a phone you need a laptop you don't need anything else really so I think like there is this energy where some casting directors I think they just go and sit in so-house and stuff but because I'm doing it and it's happening right now right now it's very much like a laptop a phone and like a lot of ravado that is the building right now but I think moving forward I don't like I don't need a physical like because people friends have said like what were your office be like and you know you in in those weird fantasies you go into it would be like oh the posters of the things I've cast on the walls and I'm like no that's just intimidating bullshit like and that's also like it's very self gratifying to be like check out my posters so I'm not gonna like I don't want it to be like I just want it to be like I'm happy to just you know hustle and just be on the road and like do auditions in spotlight or do them in the theaters like I don't need those kind of things that make me like obviously would be great and it's exciting to have that but I'm just like the world we live in today it just doesn't make sense economically for me to have like a physical office so my office will be much more of like it's not a physical space it's like a mental space it will just be a safe space and I think that's also important for actors or people that are stepping into a room that's not theirs because they've rehearsed those sides in their kitchen or wherever wherever their space or they've done that self tape on that blue wall that they've randomly painted so the space they come into when they auditioned for me just has to be a space where they feel welcome and they feel they can do the best work they can because there's another prophecy which I learned as an actor that like the casting director doesn't want me to get the job they're not giving me the opportunity I need they're reading those lines too fast I don't know my cues that quick you know like all those things that happen like some casting director just give you nothing and they're like well it's your job to bring in you know the character like my job is to just say these lines like they're font 12 times new Roman for me it's about facilitating that in a way where when they're reading I want to give them something I don't want to you know take the Oscar away from them I do I I just want to give them something to bounce off of so they feel they can do like that best work but also the the uncommon thing is as the casting director doesn't want you to get the job and let me tell you the casting director always wants you to get the job and let me tell you the truth behind why they do one because if you don't get the job we have to just continue going it's just an endless cycle of meeting new people that's tiring you're running out of people you're like these are the people that I think are really great why don't you see the same things I see I've seen them live but also your job is to be the job of a casting director is to have taste and to to take the brief from the director and they say this is the thing I'm looking for and you listen to all that and you're like oh that sounds like these people and that and that's why each casting director is very different because it's very important we all have different tastes because otherwise we're all going to be casting the same people for every single project we're all on but if the actor comes in and they think the casting director doesn't want them to get the job the truth is is that's your taste you've just bought in your taste so you've just bought in like like some people like diet coke some people like full fat I like full fat so if I bought all my full fat coke in and then that's not the taste that the director has the person that looks bad in that scenario is the casting director because it's like they didn't listen to the brief and they didn't bring the spartain they just bought all the all the sugar so like we really want the actors to do well because it's like it's it's great for the actors but it's great for us and we want that gratifying moment we're like wow where did you find that person they're so great I've never seen them before where do you know them from and you're like well I saw them in this fringe performance at the Blue Elephant Theatre in Gamblewell that no one went to like their great moments so I can't speak for all casting directors but for me on my part I love it when an actor comes in and they're just that thing that you knew they were the whole time that nobody else knew and they just do a really good job and you're like yeah that's you but that's me it's mainly but it also feels me and that that shared moment like it's just it's great like it's the best so I would say to actors that are listening to this like don't ever feel like you're in a trap it's not a trap we want like we we're out there and we're like please like come in be that person that we know you are and obviously we like it's my job to take into account all the other micro things that happen in an audition nerves like dry mouth maybe you've just run from the tube station so you a little bit out of breath give them five minutes so you can come in next like there's loads of things you can do to facilitate those moments when you feel like an actor is out of their depth that's part of my job in the room because maybe the director or the producers there and they're not going to see all of those little things but I can sense it because I look into their eyes and I look into the cornyers and I can see like that fear or that kind of total relaxation or that moment where I can be like we can do this thing now so yeah that's I feel like you've got so much energy like it's it's amazing so I feel like I'm going to what I'm going to ask you next I'm going to try and fit into three so you can answer them as one first of all around that your opinions on the growth of self-tape culture yeah maybe you might be someone who prefers in the room or not the other question was around being off book because that's a debate that a lot of actors have what are your thoughts I think I would say I predominantly work I've done a little bit of time in screen offices um I think there's a culture if you're auditioning for a role that is a screen-based role there is an argument that you would be off book so I would say right now I would say to you if you're coming for theater never be off book because you're going to be in the room with the director most probably and they're going to want to give you direction and this is something I know from being an actor as well as being on the other side that the more you learn a script the more it gets into your head in that rhythm so you're going to do like the cool runnings rhythm of field the rhythm feel the ride but if you haven't learned it when the director's like I love that but let's try this other thing you haven't got it trapped so you can your your free to open up I think the argument with screen which is really difficult is there is a self-tape culture which I don't love um because the reason why it exists is because it means the volume of actors you can meet is way higher which I also don't love it's less personal as in before you would go in for a screen audition and you'd go into the casting directors office even if it was the first round and you'd have that conversation and sometimes I feel like you can win a role by being saga the person but also saga the actor like or Henry to the person like so it's it's a it's a blend of the two and you lose part of that blend when all you see is the character because you have no comparison point and some people's tapes are so good because of the way they've like produced them like some of them have produced them in a way that is visually stunning so you're like how could it not be this person and you have to like rewind yourself back and be like is it the acting or is it just that they like they have gone all in on this thing the other reason I'm not in love with it is because the reality of it is like I said before actors have other jobs and other responsibilities and other things they have to juggle around their lives so when you get that self-tape request in and they're like you've got 48 hours his nine sides can you get this to me by 10 a.m. on Friday like the physical stress that's involved in who is my cameraman who am I reading with where's the well lit wall does that wall look good like those kind of things like those struggles like I feel like they're extra pressures but I it's not my I'm not in a position where I can say we need to get rid of self-tape and I don't think self-tape culture is going to go because I think they've really I think the pandemic made them really lean into it in a way that's become a really big thing but no they're not my favourite for because I do think there is like I what I truly believe is you can lose people in self-tapes that are truly truly talented but they don't have the facilities or the skills to be able to create this kind of like almost like a short film like some people look like professional short films and some people that live down it on like Chris Evans iPhone 6 so you're like which like how like and yeah it's your job as a casting director to see beyond those things but I do think you said for being directed and do you know what I mean like you were saying the connection in a room as well yeah so I think I went in for the first in person audition I've had and it was like it wasn't around once I had to get through that self-tape first but um it was the first time in over two years that I'd gone in in person and I was bricking it yeah but I would say it was like one of the nicest auditions I had because it's all those things you've been talking about yeah where you've got this speaking with the director you kind of understand what they want you can give them a completely different version but in a self-tape you kind of feel like you're shooting in the dark a lot of the time because you've got some especially if you don't get script yeah you've got some random exactly that usually contradicts itself anyway yeah and sometimes you're just um they're telling it around really quickly yeah so it's they want the tape and they're shooting it in two weeks yeah I mean I think there are some rules and regulations that have come in which I love for you guys which I think Jess Alawaliah set up which was about just the time limits you were given because I honestly like I guess it's another thing from being on both sides like the stress that I felt was so real when that like there's a joint like it was such a mixed emotion because there's a joy that your agency mailed you and you've got an audition so it's like that joy but then you read the the blurb and you're like oh like how am I getting how am I getting how am I like that was that was always who I was and then that moment where I'd finish it and I would have edited it and I was like please send that my agent say to me like could you do another take because honestly this took me seven hours like that stress was so real that I would just love to go back to the days of bringing people in but I like I said I'm too junior and not powerful enough to be like let's get rid of self-tape culture and I think as actors um whether you're at drama schools or however you're kind of finding your way into the industry right now I would say a big part of that learning now is finding ways to to do self-tapes not not for theatre I wouldn't say and not for me but I would say there will be a good 60 to 70% of your auditions that will come via and like you said in real there's there's moments where you don't get the full script so you've just got like a a bit that's cut out and like part of acting is like like because we're those people that we want to know are back where did we come from where are we going like what is the arc of this character I don't know this seems just happening it's a cut out scene that's happening in an office like who is Karen you don't know and you have to make choices and there's no director and there's no one saying that's the wrong or right choice so sometimes your tape could be wrong because you've interpreted something that you don't have a lot of material to make the right decision for anyway so yeah self-tapes are not I don't think they're my friend and I don't think they're actors friends I think there are acquaintances but not friends do you miss acting it's weird I think like there are there's there's elements of acting I miss but I don't miss it as a career. Like as the whole circle, I don't miss all those things that I talked about earlier, like they're not knowing, they're doing these other jobs where I'd be like, "Hey, what would you like to drink?" Like they weren't, like I wasn't living my best life then. And I think there's different pressures that come from different people. So I'm South Asian and my parents are pretty liberal, but in terms of like the things they want their son to have achieved by a certain thing, like they were tick boxes that I was not ticking because I was too invested in the other thing. And to a certain extent, I wasn't living my life because I was living for my next audition. So I did really see things that people tell you not to do, but I did them anyway because I was like one of those weird, like I'm so invested in this thing. Like I was almost like a method auditioner rather than just like, if I'm in Spain, it's fine. I miss the audition whereas I was like, "No, I can't be in Spain because I'm a sea audition." So I lived my life by those rules. And like for a long, like for those 10 to 12 years, barely went on holiday. Like I built everything, I built my Lego house around acting. And then I came to a point where I was like, I love this industry and I love being creative and all those things I was as a kid. But I also want to do the things that those people around me are doing now, which is just like really selfish things like going on holiday and buying nice things for myself. Not saying, and I'm not saying by int biennities that I've now got the money to buy nice things. But I don't have like the regret, I can be a bit more spontaneous. So you know like there's certain things you stop yourself from doing is like, I won't get tattoos or piercings or I won't do this thing because I will no longer be the thing that they want because they want to decide whether I have that thing. I just started doing it. Now I'm having one of those weird cries. Like I went on holiday to New York recently and I just got tattoos and piercings because I was like, why the hell not? Because I was like, I'm a creative. I'm working casting and people judge my earlobe. I'm like, that's your problem and not mine. So like judge away. - So you know, you left the national and that, you know, you set up as a customer right now. What's the goal? Is it basically what you went in to do at the national but now it's sort of on your name? - Yeah, that's probably right. So I like it's doing it on my own. But I guess I can curate the work more now as well. So I'm doing, I'm kind of at the beginning of that career just like new drama graduates. I'm doing the same thing as you as I'm just putting myself out there and I'm saying, this is who I am. This is why I want to be collaborate with you. And I choose things like projects I want to work on. There has to be like a, there's usually a motive there of why I want to work on that thing. So I know genres like, just like as an actor, I know genres as a cast and director, I know genres that I love working on and stories that I want to tell. So for me, it's like, there is an element of it's a script by script basis. So if someone contacts me one of the first things I say is can I read the script before we move to anything further? But I don't just wait for people to call me either because if I did that, the work would then very much be driven by the things people think I should be doing or who I am as a person. So I also, I'm doing that weird, cold calling thing of just contacting people of, like for shows I would like to work on. And that might be just because I've read a little bit of the synopsis on the new season announcement. I'll read the synopsis of the show. Or I'll see a creative team and I'd be like, God, I'd love to work with that director. I love this thing they did at Stratford East or something. So that's kind of how I'm doing it. So I have a little bit more control. But I've got control and no control because there is a moment where you also have to take work because you have to be working. It's what you have to be seen to be working to be seen to be successful. So there's an element of give and take of me curating my CV but also and doing work that I love and mixing it in with people who just really want to work with me. Because if they want to work with me, who am I to say, no, that's not me, this isn't me. Like I can be that thing and this thing. So it's about controlling that but also controlling my initial goal of addressing diversity for me specifically in theatre. And those conversations are tricky. They're not easy conversations because you're in a room with a director who has a very strong idea or vision as well. So there is a compromise that has to happen and there's a way that that conversation has to take place. And I would say to writers who are writing new materials, I love new material, I would say there are certain things where they do things but it actually creates, in the long run it creates more of a trap. So if you're going to do a play, I don't know for arguments say can it set in a university? And you create these 11 university students that are all just living their best life. But you choose one of those characters in your head as a writer already and that's going to be the Indian character. So you give them an Indian name. So you call this character Saga and he's in the university and he's having the university experience but he's very much a supporting character within those 12 university students. What you've done then is you've created a play and throughout time then every time that play is cast when we bring in brown people they're going to go, oh but they're going to play Saga, which is the smaller supporting role. So I just think there's a conversation to be heard about less not label before we've got to like, especially because it's new work. So there's that element of being able to like, we can change this, we can change this in the room and we can workshop here, we can do an R&D on it and we can say actually this character feels more like this. But if we don't label or if we give them a background where we say they have African parents throughout time when that remounts done. So when you're in that remount 22 years later of these disease, you're already attached to the role that maybe doesn't feel like your university experience but it has the label that says it should be you. So I think there's those conversations too and some of those plays are great. So I don't think like I don't poo poo the fact that certain characters are Asian throughout time now because they were probably the initial instigators of getting an Asian person into the script. But I think today now we shouldn't like, and there's shows that do it so, but I think Americans had it before us in terms of the way they address diversity and I think Shonda Rhymes was a big part of that and the movement of how like the people she bought in in those initial seasons were greats and asked me, I mean like Sandra O and Chandra Wilson and like just great actresses and they were just playing these roles and I think we're a little bit behind on that in the UK in terms of how we do that. But I think we're moving like Lauren Evans what she's done for sex education is massive and like those characters are like, they're beautiful, they're exquisite, but they're equal and that's what's important. Like no one feels like a supporting character. They feel like an equal company and I think it's just about getting everyone to like sex education moment and not having moments where race will choose like the token character or the smaller character and I guess there's a moment where they're like, you know how they do those variety tables and there's like all these really famous people. There's like a moment where I feel like there should be like that next generation of writers and directors and casting directors and people sitting on a table together and saying, "How can we do this in a really successful way where we're no longer, you know, there's no parameters 'cause I feel like there's always parameters. How can we get rid of the fences that exist?" And there's like, for me, and there's so many great South Asian people coming through that are doing, like doing the law's work, like you've got Nadia for, let's try to fit these, you've got Indy Roovers sing them at the kiln. Like there's just people everywhere now, they're dotted around and I think it's about making those connections with those people and saying, that you're doing the thing, I'm doing the thing, we're doing the same thing. Like let's go back to fractions, which we all hated and make this thing work for us. Like let's make these decimal points work. So that's kind of, that's how I'm playing it right now and I'm gonna just, I'm free styling it a bit so I could be like really successful hopefully or like it could really explode without a music video, in which case, like I tried the thing and I'll go back into another casting office and not retrain but gain more experience. But right now I really hope to be able to just do it alone, not because I like doing things on my own. I actually like being around people. So it's weird, but I just think the job will be, like I will be able to do the thing I want with my voice if I do it independently. I think it warms my heart knowing that you're casting assistance or you really well looked after. - This is a conversation that's had as well, like a casting office. Like I always believe, and I don't know if this is false, but I always think like when you go to work, if you pick a person for a job, like and that be an office job, you know their skills, like you've seen their CV, you know what they bring to the table, but if they happen to be fun and funny and like a joke or a job, but also get the thing down, I'm like, do you know what? What could be better than that person that you know is brings that moat, like when there's a moment where everyone's at high stress levels when that print is not working or something's going wrong. If you have someone that's just there that can just cut that tension, but also get your documents done. I always think why is that a problem? But I think as Brits, 'cause we're so conservative, we always lean into like the silent office worker who you know doesn't share their problems, but I just think in the long run, what does that mean for that person? Like who, how is that person dealing with that level and how is that chipping away at that person? So I just kind of think, like let's get the job done, but also let's do it in the best, most professional way possible, but we should still be able to have a good time. Like I'm not saying it needs to be a party, but I'm just saying it can be business in the front, pie in the back, it can be a mullet, but there is a way to do that. And like that's what, if I ever had an office with assistance, which I can't, that feels like a million years away, like that's what I want people to be happy to come to work and not be like, oh God, I'm going to work, Fujitinder and it's gonna be a nightmare, but I'm gonna get through it 'cause I want to be able to do this thing. And like that's what I kind of like to think of as like, especially the people that have come off the NFTS casting course who are all doing really well in different offices. I kind of like to think of as the new era of casting. I'd like there to be a change and I feel like if there's anyone that can do it, it's a group of people that have learned together 'cause I think traditionally casting assistants don't know what the casting assistants, 'cause when they get their job, very much. locked into that office, so they know the rest of their team, but not really anyone else in the other team. So I think we have this weird sort of symbiotic connection to each other, and we're all in different offices, all doing the job slightly differently for different bosses, but we also all have each other. So when we feel like we're getting checked out in certain ways, we can say to each other, am I being mad or is this a thing? And then someone will go, you're being mad or that's a thing. And that's why we have to be, if you want change to happen, it's hard for one person to do that on their own, but I do feel like there's a group of us now that I've dispersed out the kids at Ride-O-High, and they're doing their thing in separate offices. And I'm probably loud, I was one of the loudest members, but there's other people that are out there now that are just doing the work quietly, and there is this ultimate goal that Shaheen and Gina and Jane put us together. And maybe 20 years later we'll be each other's peers, but we'll also support each other rather than compete with each other. And I think that's the lovely thing about that. And each person had a different idea of what they wanted to do in the industry. Mine was very focused on one thing, but different people had different ideas. And I think that's beautiful too, because it will hopefully mean we can sort of change the landscape of what it means to be an actor who comes and meets a casting director and does an audition, and it doesn't have to be transactional. Wow, this hour has shot by, but we're going to have to stop it. But I think we've just scratched the surface with you. I think we may have to do a part two at some point. Thank you so much for coming by. We have one last question. As an actor or a casting director, we quite interested to hear the casting director version of it. We always ask people what part of the job they enjoy the most, getting the gig, the process of it, or seeing the final product. I know I said earlier, it was that moment when it was seeing the final product, but there is a casting, especially, there's a beautiful moment when you're doing the job and an actor comes in the room and they're just, they adjust it. And it's like this silent ecstasy, because you can't release that ecstasy, so it's just like fizzing up and they're just speaking and they're just doing the dialogue and they are just it. And you're like, oh my god, we've just found, like we found that. And like the rest of the panel also feel it too. So you know you're all silent. And like if you were in a school scenario, you do that weird emoji side eye where you're all like, oh my god. You can't even, you can't make that connection. So it's like a silent connection with the actor. And when you find those people, it's like an ecstatic moment because that is what you're doing, like you're finding the people for the job. So, but obviously that end product is also a gorgeous moment. I just think when you're, I guess the main part of the job is casting the people, the end product is like, you know they're talented and you know that it's going to be a great thing. So like when you have those moments in the room and you find the person, it's pretty special. Amazing. What a beautiful way to end it. Yeah, just quickly for any people in the industry that want to find you, follow you on social media, where can they, where can they get you? I mean, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at the moment, both of those things are open. Right. So for the moment of it. You don't have to, you don't have to request. It will just be an instantaneous follow. Twitter will always remain open because that's probably where I talk more industry based. Instagram's just where I catfish. So the people that saw it, and we are seeing right now is not the people you see on Instagram. Yeah, you can find me on Instagram Twitter and you can email me as well if you want. If you have any specific questions. Just to say that thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. No worries.