Casablanca’s Charaf Tajer on Designing for Impossible Possibilities

Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of the Business of Fashion, welcome to the B.O.F. podcast. It's Friday, September 9. This week I'm pleased to share a conversation with Shehraf Tajah, the French Moroccan designer behind Casablanca, a business that Sharaaf started with just 3,000 euros and was just tapped into the growing demand for both men's and women's resort wear. Casablanca is now doing more than 45 million euros in annual revenue. But Sharaaf's rise in the Parisian fashion scene is also exceptional because of who Sharaaf is and where he is from. As one of the few people of color working at the very top level of French luxury fashion, Sharaaf has learned that no matter how high his star rises, he still faces discrimination related to his identity as he travels in these elite spaces. This only makes him want to work harder to break down barriers and become a role model. You don't want to miss this one, it's a special conversation and I'm grateful to Sharaaf for his vulnerability in Canada. Here's Sharaaf Tajah on the B.O.F. podcast. Welcome to the B.O.F. studio to have this conversation. Hello, hello, Imran, how are you? I'm very well. I'm so excited to have this chat with you today because we've kind of had this chat in private, but I always like to share these conversations with a wider group and you and I've had the opportunity over the last little while to get to know each other a little bit. And I guess everyone listening will know you for the incredible success of Casablanca, the very clear signature that you've developed. Thank you. That's recognizable on the street but also on e-commerce sites all around the world. I want to go back to the very beginning to where Sharaaf Tajah came from, you know, your family background, your personal background. Tell me a little bit about you and your family and how you came into this world. Yeah, so I'm born and raised in Paris, right behind La Gardre Nore when everybody arrived in the restaurant. There is a hospital over there and this is exactly where I'm born. My family is from Morocco, actually Casablanca. This is where my parents met. In the Natalia of Couture, they were working together side by side in Casablanca. There was a Couture atelier in Morocco. Yeah, it was like few Couture atolies and they were working there. And this is how they met. I think my dad loved my mom and my mom loved my dad and they start like being friends and then like they fall in love. And this is why the brand is named Casablanca is a dedication to where my story started, even if I'm born in Paris. I always think about those moments where like two strangers working together falling in love. And this is the beginning of my story. And would you say then that fashion is in your blood because they had this experience in the Couture atelier. Like how did that impact you growing up? Yeah, I think like we always have machines at the house. We always have a machine like my dad used to make me clothes when I was younger. We used to window shopping in Paris and come back with like some sketches and my dad used to make me miniature of leather jackets and things like this. And my grand, grand power is also a sore. So I have it for my mom, for my dad and for my dad's family there is a lot of musicians as well in the family. So I guess somewhere yet it's in the blood and my family name in Arabic means a trader. So I guess fashion is 50/50 is artistic but it's also business and I might have it in the blood somewhere. And you know I believe that. This is called a business of fashion podcasts. That's cool. I agree with that. So what was it like for your parents? When did they move over from Morocco to Paris and what brought them to France? I think my parents wanted a better life. You know, as like most of the migrants parents, they just like see more opportunities in a different land. So as they were saying, it's always hard to leave your friends, to leave your family on the back. So we here, we need to work and make the best out of the moment because yeah, they came for that. And we have a better living and also it's always stays in my mind because I don't want to waste the opportunity that my parents created for me and I always was very aware of that. So that's why I always been a very hard worker because I think like this sacrifice so much for us and it's only fair for me to use the opportunity. Did they work in fashion when they moved to France? My dad yes, my dad used to work in atelier here and there, but my mom switched it to a cleaning lady. So it's something that stays with my mind, you know, it's like my mom going and cleaning the houses of people. So I have to make a living when I'm growing up. I want to make a better living for me and my family. So that's always stays with me, but also going with her to this couple of lawyers, Monsieur Madame Javal, they were living in a 16 in a very beautiful apartment with brass, untrans of their elevator. They were playing tennis, they were playing golf. And you used to go with her? I used to go with her. So I used to play with the kids and the daughters used to have like those like very beautiful haircuts. And I think it stays with me. Like honestly, like I think I got something from there and I think you can see it. And this is where I seen actually my first Hermès scarf and it blowed my mind because I was like, this is in the world of adults and this is all those colors in a piece of fabric and I didn't really knew what it was, you know. And I think it stays with me and with the time like I start to know them more and more. And they kind of like mentor me in a way because they were explaining me all the things they used to explain to their grandchildren. So I alone. So for people listening in other parts of the world who don't know what the 16th around this moment stands for in Paris, can you talk a little bit about that and how that compared to where you? So me grew up in Belleville in an area where like it's very working class, you know. The 16th and this moment is the most bourgeois area. People have beautiful houses. Some people have tennis courts. It's like the most bourgeois area of Paris. One wanted to say in like really explicit or direct terms, one might say the rich white establishment. The richest white establishment area. Right. And so you come from this like immigrant family, move to France to have a better life for themselves, but also for you with this kind of fashion DNA going back a couple of generations. When did you first realize that this is actually not just something that is in your history? But also part of what you wanted to be part of your future, like your work today. Yeah. My mom always joke about this because I always, till my 1670s, I always rejected a bit this part of like this fashion background that my family had. I always said I want to do different stuff. I don't want to be in this, but my mom still, till today, having fun of me because she say the apple don't fall far from the trees. Like you try and travel the world and like try to be someone else, but now you're doing kind of the same thing that we used to do. So you make her laugh. Yeah. It's a bit natural. Was there a moment though when you realized that this was something you wanted to pursue? Actually, it came very gradually because I had a problem. I've never seen anybody that looks like me who was a fashion designer. So it was hard to believe that I have a point of view. And it takes me like almost 10 to 15 years to call myself a designer. So it wasn't one time actually. It's like gradually I remember having like epiphany is about like the fact that I can be that guy based through that like it took so much time before I accepted to call myself a designer. So how did you break in then? Like what was your first experience on your own working in or around the fashion industry? How did you even see what a designer looked like? Yeah. My first experience was in the backstage of Reco and I was quite young. What year was this or how old were you? Maybe I was 19 or something like this. Backstage at Rickon. Yeah, because I was interning in the mom of my best friend at the time who was doing production and cinematography for them. So somehow I got access to this backstage as someone who's going to help. And I was very curious about fashion in general. So this is where I saw the first time Michel Amit and Reco went and I was like, but how those people have like such an extreme aesthetic making a living out of this is like who's buying those clothes? And they make me understand that like you can really express whatever form you want, you probably going to find your public if it's a true expression of yourself. So I learned a lot like those few shows that I've been on the backstage and I understood that yeah, identity is something like you can really express the most extreme way you want. That's so interesting because I remember the first time I went to a Rickon show and that I met Rick and Michel and eventually was able to go to their home at the place, she Patti Bill-Bohen and see that the brand that they created in a way together was really just a full, complete physical manifestation of who they are as people. And it's so authentic. And so aligned with them as individuals with their values and yes, with their aesthetic. So when you saw that, how did it make you feel? I didn't know how to process it, I just understand that it's amazing, I just understood that it was like something quite surrealistic about it, but I didn't really understand what it is. You know, I was just like, it's amazing, it's so personal, I can tell like this guy recoins with his long hair and like drape pants and t-shirts, it's surrealistic. Those guys look sometimes like monks on the catwalk and all of that, but on the same time I was like, it makes sense to me, I felt like it was something genuine, so I loved it so much. I think the other thing that I remember from like when I first walked through their showroom was that what was on the runway was this like really extreme, the full 100% expression of the Rick Owens lifestyle, the Rick Owens aesthetic. But if you walked into the showroom and you saw those like rows and rows of leather jackets and rows and rows of beautiful jersey, easy to wear, knitwear, you could also see that the other thing that they'd mastered was this idea that you could take really extreme, sometimes out of this world aesthetic from a runway and turn it into something that anybody could buy into. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I saw like how also people can be like so comfortable with themselves and I think he was a key for me as well to see that like you have this lady dress in a certain way, but also she knows how to conduct a business and exactly what you said, like it's fantastic to see this and like people are far from understanding when I say this story with Rick Owens because it's actually the opposite of how our DNA at Casabroca, but it's still one of my biggest inspiration. So sometimes the inspiration is not in the form, it's really in the essence of things. Yeah, in the spirit and in a way, it has that of why a brand can so fully align with its founder. And we'll get to Casabroca in a minute, but then after this exposure backstage, Rick Owens, like what happens next? After we start thinking about doing this store, Pigal, and at the beginning it was more a store with like so many brands and we wanted to put our t-shirt and hoodie in the store. So back in the days like Stefan designed the store and like he become like something towers the use of Paris, you know, so we had our stickers all around the clubs, all around the parties, all around the subway, around the buses, stuff and all that. And more and more the conversation grow around us and then it becomes a brand and it was like really surprising for us to be able to exist in the scene of Paris where nobody really looks like us at the time. And not even just a color thing, but also a term of style because we were quite hip-hop kids, you know, at the end of the day. So we were like quite as we were and we always been outsiders. And yeah, we created this thing and we were doing also our parties. There was named Pawn Chocolat. And further down the line I created our club called Le Pompon where we did like after parties for Louis Vuitton, for Givenchy, for the big names somehow it happens because we were the new kids on the block, you know. So a brand is born out of this relationship you have with Stefan. What did he do and what did you do? Yeah, I was more into the marketing side of things like the event side of things, the communities I was thinking it was more like the designer of the brand because at the time like I couldn't like find the confidence to become this guy. I was absolutely okay to be number two because sometimes you think it's already good to be number two and why not because you need number two. But it's true that like I couldn't express myself because also I didn't have like the confidence and it wasn't my time, you know. But with yours I understood that I have a point of view. The more I grow, the more I travel, I understood that there is things that I love and there is things that represent me a bit like Rick in his world but in a totally different aesthetic. So with the years I get the confidence and also you know with creating the clubs, designing the clubs, designing the uniform, designing everything, creating me more and more confidence. And I understood that I had something to say in aesthetics and you know designing the couches, designing the flyers, everything like was a build up, you know. It's almost like learning by doing. I kind of knew I wasn't a writer, a trained writer or journalist. Lots of young people asked me like how can you learn how to be a writer and I said well you just have to write a lot. And the more you write, the more you find your voice and it feels like that's kind of what happened with you. Yeah, it's like this is it to be a designer. It's like if you want a design, let's say a glass, you know, and you imagine your glass to be a certain shape, it's easy just put a circle and you create your shape and boom you are a designer, you're not Oscar Nie Mayer yet but you're on your way. You already created your first glass. And I think like in design in general, I think if you know colors, if you understand colors and proportion, you can literally design everything. So this is how I get into it. I don't talk me that long time ago. If you understand proportions and colors and you have a bit of sociological reading, you can design anything you want. A car, a building, a piece of clothes, a piece of furniture, it's all the same process. You studied some design though, right? You went to architecture school. So that's why this Nie Mayer reference comes through. Did that help you in becoming a designer and like a fashion designer? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think like really architecture is always one of my first inspiration because I think like is the mother of all arts. Like I feel like in architecture you have everything, you have music, you have fashion, you have everything in architecture. So the fact that like I had like a closer view and understanding on architecture and the emotional part of architecture lead me to do the things that were more personal to me on the everyday basis, which is the clothes because we were like fashion kids at the end of the day. We always buy clothes. We always travel to find new brands in Japan and so on. So for me it was like a revelation to understand that all the things work together if that makes sense. Yeah. So tell me about the creation of Casablanca. At some point you decide you have a confidence. You don't want to be the number two guy anymore. What inspired you to create the brand and why did you decide to find it here in London? So at the beginning the brand was like in my head for like three, four years before we started the brand. But it's supposed to be part of Pigal to be totally clear with you. Like I didn't fully find the confidence by then. But honestly the more I grew up, the more I told about it and the more I had like personal revelations, the more I knew that the brand would be too big for any other container that itself. And I think like after three, four years of waiting, of talking with my friends and like pushing the dates and everything, I'll be like, you know what I'm just going to do it by myself. And I feel like it's good enough by itself. Was it hard to leave Pigal? Very hard. Very hard to leave Pigal because it's all I knew. Like I had my clubs and all that but mentally and like in terms of fashion, it's all I had. My question was like, if I leave Pigal, is people going to start thinking what I'm doing with my silk shirts and my colorful things that I had in my mind are interested in or not? People might just think like it's a flop. Oh, it's just not interesting enough for the fashion world in general or the, you know, so yeah, it was very hard and it's also like breaking up from a long relationship as well. So it's like it takes time to process but also the fire inside me to create this brand was so big. And I knew also deep down because I feel like everything is inside me. It's always like this like full confidence and full doubt. So in between those two, there is like some fire and this is how I created the brand by like being very doubtful and very confident. Yeah, you kind of need to take, it's in a way like blind faith. Yeah, you know, that's like somehow at some point you just need to take the leap and see what happens. And there is nothing for you in the past. So you have to go to the future because when you look back, there's nothing for you there. It's like there is no space. There was no space for me to grow. I had to create what I wanted to create because the feeling of not accomplishing my own vision was too hard and like I had to go out of this comfort zone that everybody talks about. Okay, so tell me about that vision because we talked earlier about how Rick Owens has manifested his aesthetic, his lifestyle, his vision into this brand. How did, how does Casablanca represent you? First of all, Casablanca represent my vision of the world. I think like the beauty that you can see in Casablanca, it's only inspired by what I love in the world. So I think there is all those inspirations could be like the Memphis Milano movement or our start on our CISO, certain hotel lifestyle, many different inspirations like my beautifully shocking moment of like discovering the Hermes Carves, you know, all those things. I don't know going to Singapore and discovering the Raffles Hotel and all those travels make me understand that like, oh, there is a certain aesthetic that I don't fully know but I resonate with me, you know. So wait, let me understand that a bit better because in a way, those were things that you had no access to growing up, the Hermes scarf, the Raffles Hotel. These are things that were, you know, as in a way you were looking at and admiring from far away or from the outside or for the first time and somehow that lifestyle, that luxury, that aesthetic, that Memphis Milano movement. What do you think it spoke to you so much? Was it because it was something you didn't have or? Yeah, it was exotic to me. It was very exotic to me. And since a very young age actually, in Paris we had this culture in the 90s and early 2000s of dressing up in La Costraxude as I often say, like doctors who go play tennis in a Sunday. We know that we're not going to go to the country club. We know we're not going to go play tennis but just the fact that we could dress like this with an Hermes scarf, Cartier glasses, La Costraxude, it opens a certain window in your mind. And I think this is what fashion does. It opens a certain option of dreaming of a certain thing. And I think this is the starting point when I start looking at the guys who grew up in my area who were older than me but they were like wearing Cartier glasses and it wasn't really foreign to us because we live in Paris so we see older bourgeois people wearing those kind of things. When you go to the doctor you have those kind of glasses and everything. But it was also very contradicting with where we grew up. So seeing those guys who when I was like 12 years old they were maybe 20 years old and they were like young men who were dressing super elegantly like with La Cospola with a nice watch. Like you know how this French elegance we were like those guys can really dress and it really stays with me this kind of like exotism of like the bourgeoisie made by and dressed by someone who not coming from there. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So it's this aspirational quality seeing this lifestyle and not having access to it but creating it for yourself. Yeah. So how does that connect with the customer you think that actually buys into Casablanca? I don't think you have a direct link for me the brand is like a church on the middle of the village and this is how I want it to be. I think the brands that I love the brands that I grew up looking at I think they are brands who are strong enough to be in the center of the village and I think like when you look at a Chanel for example or a Nike or a Nappel like all those brands are in the center of the village. What do you mean by center of the village? Yeah. I'm going to explain is like let's say a Chanel bag can be desired by a 12 years old girl, a 60 years old woman or 45 years old lady. You know, everybody loves the Chanel. It's in the center. It's not targeting towers like skateboarders or you know what I mean? It's like it's more like it's something and the community goes around it and come join the cult if I can say. And this is how I wanted to because of bronca. I don't want it to be targeted towers one demographic and this is what I want for cause of bronca is to be strong enough that like a 16 years old wants a t shirt, a 30 years old want a shirt, a 60 years old wants a pair of glasses, let's say. Do you have a product like that that you see as the one that kind of because the most successful fashion businesses as we discussed earlier, you know, Rick has his jersey stuff and his leather stuff. Now that you built this brand for people who are not familiar with it, like how do you describe the kind of product mix of Casablanca and what it's known for? I think first of all, we very strong with how a silk shirt and silk shirt was something when I started the brand was like the aunties of fashion, you know, like silk printed colorful shirt in the world of every clothes or more or less black on the runways was the contradiction totally with the era where I was living in. I think like first of all is the silk shirt that like is our signature product and then probably then you have a very strong need for offer, you have a very strong sports welfare and we starting to grow in the shooting and tailoring. But yeah, if there is one central product that Casablanca maybe there is the first product that people tap into is the silk shirt. And how did you get the collection off the ground? So because you'd left Pigowl, you have this vision for this brand built around maybe initially with silk shirts. Silk shirts, truck suits and a bit of tailoring for the first. Yeah, so tell me about the first collection, like what was. First season I started the brand with 3000 euros. So I really don't have money to start the brand. I created two suits, two silk shirts and like about nine different colors of truck suits made out of a Terry cloth. So I go and bought Terry cloth like that, like people do towels with it, you know. And like three or four t-shirts. And that's what I was offering. And I did the first show at my mom's place in Belville. And like buyers from Browns, buyers from United Arizona's sons, Icedán, Maxfield, Essence came to my mom's house. How did you get them just show up? I don't know, like I think what happened is I posted the first picture on Instagram and people start calling me and say, "We want to buy this brand." What was that picture? It was a picture of just a guy wearing Casablanca like it was the first picture of Casablanca and like people said, "Okay, we want to buy your brand, we want to pull it in our stores." And I was like Browns, like this is a store, like this is serious. Essence, United hours and sons. And I was like, "We want to buy this brand, we want to buy it." And I was like, "We want to buy this brand, we want to pull it in our stores." And I was like, "We want to buy this brand, we want to buy this brand, we want to pull it in our stores." And I was like, "We want to buy this brand, we want to pull it in our stores." And I was like, "No, it's not a coffee." It's a club. But yeah, she didn't fully get it, but she just be supportive and be like, "Yeah, whatever works, just do it." So all those buyers shop for the first season, how did you produce the collection with 3000 euros? So I got like 3000 euros, I produced the samples with it. And then I started receiving, like, I asked 30% of each buyers. Deposit. So I used the deposit and I just do it. And I put a deposit myself for the things. But sure, off your price points are not inexpensive. Casablanca is pricey. So where did you produce to get that level of quality, to justify that price point with 3000 euros? How did you do that? The product justified the price. It was just because I wanted to do this level of silk shirts that like the same level of the biggest brand in the world, that I go and find the best silk people. We worked with some people that used to do silk at Pigal. So I find a connection through this way. And I got like few samples. And like really was like just one or two shirts of each. And it wasn't like a big set. So it was easy for me to produce, I mean, to sample one or two sets. The pattern was on right. Nothing was really working. But the quality was there. And the design of the print was there. So yeah, I think like when people saw the quality, they were like, okay, this is interesting. We don't see that. And it's made in a modern way. And you showed it in an apartment in Belleville. And it was like a design. And they still remember that. Like buyers still time to time when I see them say, I remember when you, I came to your mom's house. They said, we're so happy because we saw the brand growing. And this is great. Like this is a great feeling for them and for me because they believed in me. And I wanted also to execute the best way possible for the people who believed in me from the start. So tell me about the business today. You've gone from this small, really a capsule collection to a global business. Tell us about how the business looks today. One of the key elements is the arrival of Nadia. She's the CEO of my company. She brought a structure. She find a way to get some investment. Very seed investment. But we did the best out of it. And we grow from this 3000 euro sampling phase to today a 45 million euros business. 45 million a year in revenue. And most of that is wholesale. Most of it is wholesale. We have 10% of non wholesale. And that's through our website. Yeah, our website and the rest is like all around the world. We're in 320 retailers. Do you plan to do your own stores? Yeah, we're opening our own store next year. We started by Paris and LA. Okay. Paris first. That's a pretty incredible journey. And it's not just down to Nadia. I'm sure I mean, and sure you have a whole team. Yeah, we have an old team like we have amazing team like we have this guy Steve who is still my copilot. We call him. And he's been a very strong man. That was like already before we started the brand starting work with me and graphics and gave me so much time. So he's with us still and he's have like a very strong position as a as an art director of the brand and like we build the brand as a like a very organic team coming together. And those two people are from London. So that's why one of the reason why I moved to London is because of them. And it's very hard to build a company in France. I wanted to not only we have a full atelier in London like where we sample all the pieces that you see in the shows and everything. So yeah, it was one of the reason why I came to London because of my team growing and being a UK based team and also financially. London is way more welcoming when it comes to building a business. Got it. What's been the toughest moment for you on this journey of pulling the company? It's many things like cash flow was very hard because in fashion, you had to build a coherent gymnastic around money. And the day you think you have money on the bank account, it's the day you have to pay everything and like you have to start from zero kind of. The more order you have, the more things you have to pay. So this is kind of like this hard cycle of finding the right balance between what people pay you. But also you have to pay your next order. So this is usually how fashion companies falling is because they have too much orders and the victim of their success. But in only like you found out the company in 2018, it's 2022 now you're doing 45 million euros in turnover. How did you find the working capital to kind of grow the company? We did some short term loans. We did some convertible loans with investors that like we have to pay them before the things was converted because otherwise they would have shares. It's a full gymnastic and that's why I was saying, Naja, she's keen this because she have this background as a lawyer. But also she did a business school show she have like and she used to be a big manager in the music industry. So for her it was a new thing. She's not coming from fashion, but somehow we learn how to play the game. And we're not done like I think we still have to be careful with money. And it sounds like a lot of money 45 millions, but 45 millions in fashion is very small compared to the Gucci and to the Chanel of this world. We're still a very tiny tiny brand. It sounds like it's a lot and it's a lot of money, but it's not like we make money on the side. We're like re-enjecting everything. You're putting everything back into the company. Speaking of difficult things, earlier you said to you know in the conversation you said when you were launching your own business, that one of the things you're worried about was what everyone would think. You know what the fashion industry would think. And I can imagine that for someone who comes from a completely different world. And for people who haven't kind of seen the inside of the very white fashion establishment in France still extremely uniform in terms of where people come from, how they break in. Now that you're successful entrepreneur, but you must have faced some challenges along the way in terms of your background and identity and walking into rooms. Frankly, there's no one like you. Yeah. I think like when you live in France it becomes like a thing that you have to fight, but you have to never accept it. You cannot like become complacent with it. I don't want it to be like the center of the conversation around me or around my brand because I think like it's way more interesting to look at what we do, but there is a certain parameter around this like we have to say like yes. It's a fact that there is no much people that looks like me as a designer, but just in also in the industry. But it's for us to create new examples for the new kids that come in next. There is like already dreams of being football players of being actors, but there is no real dreams of being an architect of being designers in this community. And I think like for me what's important is also to create this new type of examples that like I lacked when I was younger and yet the challenges was every day, you know, like it's still sometimes the other day I was going to my show, police stopped me in the street and search my pockets. It's an actual thing that happens every day is not like now I'm having my my own brand and stopped. Yeah, you just because you become a successful entrepreneur and fashion designer doesn't mean you leave your identity in the background like that's something that you take with you everywhere. And this thing also remind me that is a reality. I'm going to my show literally I'm taking the car to go to my show before I enter the car, stop me search my clothes, search my pockets check my identity who am I. Why do I look like this what I'm doing this area and like it's just a reality. So it just remind me that there is other people who looks like me who's like struggling every day. So maybe I'm way more privileged because I can travel all around the world and like meet new people and also express myself. But it's also my duty to also accomplish the biggest thing in the world to become an example and that's why I want to be in the highest level in the world. I want to be number one. I only want to be number one because I think like it has to happen because I want it to be an example for the rest of the people from my background or not from my background. But it has to exist and I also want to be a new French house and a new major designer for how a generation. So beside the fact that I'm an North African Muslim guy. I also just want to represent the new face of France and I want to be that guy. I just wanted to be that guy because it has an impact directly on the society more than just having a political view on this on that. But it's actually changing the perception that people have of people of color in general, you know. Which is not a conversation that's really happened before now in France. I mean, I feel like in a way the conversation on race and identity in France is decades behind maybe the conversation is happening in North America and other places. What is the French establishment in fashion like with you now that you are maybe one of the most successful young fashion designers in the entire country. You know, you can count on one hand that can count marine sire, Jacques Musse, you know, and yourself maybe a couple of others. What are they like with you now? The big brands, you mean? Just the people who run the industry in France, the Shomu Assande Cal, the CEOs of the big brands, the other more established designers who come from traditional backgrounds. Yeah, I guess like I only get love from them because I think they're smart enough to see that I represent something new. So in terms of positioning, but also in terms of background. I think only have have love from them, you know, I think like it's very interesting to see that like I'm welcome in the world of fashion, but I think I have to take also. Virgil for that. Virgil and I we've been friends many many years we've been friends since I met him in 2009, 2010 in Paris. Till he died and I think like we have to pay homage to this guy because he break the rules. In a way, sometimes it takes someone from the outside to bust down the door and say actually I think you know in my conversations with Virgil, one of the last few conversations I had with him and actually at his first V-tone show, I took a picture from that show and he ended up reposting it. Yeah, and he said you can do it too. Yeah, you can do it. He wasn't only talking to African American kids, he was talking to everyone who's been shot out by this very exclusive system. Yeah, Virgil was a door opener and like he dedicated his life to the use. And that's why I respected the guy because even though we have two different aesthetics, totally different, but how many times we talked about this, how many times like we we share this. He was really someone unique because he really want people to win and that makes a massive difference when he posted this or when he said use always win. Just show how his will to con care was for him, but also for the rest of the world and I had to respect that from the get go like and he really opened the door and never going to say enough thank you to him because it did impossible. What a legacy. It did impossible. What do you want your legacy to be when you think about all the young people living in Bellevue now and they look at you and you're just at the beginning of your trajectory. I think that's clear. I want to see people who are one day better than me at what what I do. I want to see more closing brand. I want to see more furniture brand. I want to see more architects. I want to see buildings created by people of colors. I don't see much buildings designed by architect from these backgrounds. And I think like it's major. It's very important. This is what I would love to live in my legacy and for a kid out there who has a potential or the interest or the talent or the cure even just the curiosity is the key. What do you say to them? How can they learn from your story? All I have to say is out there. It's a lot of work but you can make it too. It's possible. As Virgil said what you were saying you can do it too. And it's true. You can do it too. It's like this is what I remember every day. When I look at the people that I love as a fashion designer as Gabriel Chanel or if San Laurent or per cardan. I can do it too. But they just from different backgrounds but during their time they had also other reason to be excluded. As Gabriel Chanel was a woman who was from a background that wasn't easy but she made it. And now this is one of the biggest brands in the world. San Laurent had like so many barriers to knock down before he become the San Laurent that we know. So basically me I only love to go for the impossible possibilities. And this one of the slogans that I love to say. I want to go pretty impossible possibilities. This is also why it's exciting to do what we do because I think Casablanca is one of maybe the first luxury brand really that born on the internet. I'm not talking about a streetwear brand that is expensive because I think there is a massive difference between a streetwear brand that are expensive or luxury streetwear. And like I think with Casablanca we created a luxury brand. And this is my dream is to create a luxury house. I want in 50 years time people to remember Casablanca has like this house of fashion but being created in 2018. The internet with one post and a picture that drove a bunch of very busy buyers to go on to the outskirts of Paris to discover your brand and your mother's home which is kind of incredible. So anyone can do it. You can do it. Anyone can do it. You just have to find yourself in a way. You have to find what you want to say to the world. Really it's like one of the central thing when I was talking about Recoance. This is it. I seen in Recoance. I didn't want it to do the same clothes that we're doing. But I wanted to do my own version of Recoance which is literally the opposite of it. But I see what you mean. It's that spirit. It's that essence. Yeah, exactly. And this is I think what people have to find if tomorrow you want to do like the next Chanel. Don't try to do what Chanel used to do but understand what's her background why she was answering a certain question at certain time on the society when woman needed to dress up like this to renew their selves. And I think like for us it's a bit the same. It's like what's the answer in a word where everything is like a bit deconstructed everything is a bit against something. What would be Casablanca as like a pro brand? What about being okay with the world? What about like looking at the beauty of the world or treating sport as a classical thing and create actually the classics of how generation. Because if you continue to deconstruct everything there is nothing else to deconstruct. Maybe someone with the construct Casablanca in 20 years fair enough but we cannot just be on to something. And the main thing with Casablanca is we are pro something. We are for the beauty. We are for sport. We are for well being. We are for this lifestyle of like dreaming bigger the impossible possibilities. So I think like it's been pro. It's also what Casablanca is today. Ciao. Thank you. Thank you. It was such a pleasure. The B.O.F. podcast is edited and produced by Emma Clark, Kate Bartan and Eric Brea in the B.O.F. studio team. [BLANK_AUDIO]