161. Carrie Scott

I'm Heidi Zokerman and this is about art. I've spent my life connecting people to art to make their lives better. This podcast talks about art in contemporary culture and why we should care. Each episode is an impactful conversation with people I find interesting and think you will too, about their life, values and always about why they think art matters. This is about art. Hey everyone, thanks so much for tuning in today. My guest is Keri Scott and she is an English American curator and arts commentator based in London. She and I had not met before and so this is the first time that we spoke and I started noticing her with these really funny and smart and opinionated videos that she was posting on Instagram. Art certainly makes me feel better and I think most people, if you can get them to slow down for long enough to experience looking, it makes them feel better even if it makes them feel awkward at first or even if the subject was hard. I think that there's a there's a destination to feeling better and art that we don't talk about enough. Turns out we have a bunch of different people in common and the conversation was so authentic and so uplifting and so honest and it's just one of those conversations sometimes where you just feel seen and heard and I know you're really going to enjoy it. So here we go. Thanks for doing this and it's always fun to get to see where people choose to be and you have quite a dramatic image that you're sitting in front of. So maybe I'll start by asking you to talk about that. Sure, perfect. Do you want me to dive right in? It's a it's a Kim McCarthy who is actually an LA based artist. I'm one of the very first shows I ever curated was called Arts Elk, no bookish, something like that. I kind of remember but I was in Seattle and I was at grad school you know 20 years ago something like that and I was putting together a show and researching and I found Kim's work and she was kind of in my eyes like a big grown-up artist and I sent this email out thinking she'd say absolutely not no way dream on kid and she gave me two pieces for that show and I was like blown away by her belief in my little vision and my little idea that then emboldened me to ask some other big artists to put work in the show and since then I've worked with her god on a number of things and have loved her work forever and so that behind me I actually got from a show that I curated that I just kind of couldn't let go. So that's it's in my office living large and sometimes I move my computer around to the other side of my desk so that it's just a big white background because not everyone wants a living nude but I figured you would get it. Great so it's a wonderful place to kind of start the conversation and just sort of apologizing to everyone today for the for my voice because I've had it I called for a little while but I'll try and have some matcha and water as we go. The artists that show us belief sometimes before we have belief in ourselves I don't know necessarily that they know the impact that they have but the it's of course so important to have mentors and people to look up to and if you have a career with art and you love artists and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to speak with you because I got a sense from the way you communicate with the world that you share my love for artists. The fact that there are people artists that believe in you before you believe in yourself is so impactful. I mean beyond right and I mean I can tell you all the stories of my career being peppered with artists who have either lifted me up or turned to me for advice and I've been like wait what's what do I know I don't know anything you're the artist or you know I have kind of like through real life problems given me help right it's why it's why I'm still in this impossible business that we're in I mean seriously legitimately. I'd love to hear a few of those stories you know I some years ago Michael Govon who's probably my closest professional colleague friend friend colleague you know said to me that our careers the legacy of our careers are the artists with whom we associate ourselves and he said you know choose your people and support them over and over again and I would say that that was such amazing early advice to give because I I feel like that's why I still do what I do. So I'd love to hear some of your stories of course not all of them but some of them for sure. The easiest one and I think that is great advice the easiest one to talk about is Rashid Johnson who when we were kids you know we were both in our early 20s I was again in Seattle I was running a amazing but small gallery called the James Harris Gallery and Rashid and I met in like a kind of just a chance encounter in New York I was I was there for Nada I think and we met no we're near Nada and he said I'm an artist and I'm in art on paper and I was like cool I'm an historian and I'm running a gallery in Seattle you know one of those things and we started emailing I then pitched a show of his to my boss at the time Jim who was the owner of James Harris Gallery he would like yeah sure let's do this and so the first kind of commercial show I had ever fully curated and it's a slightly different story right because we were Rashid and I were peers we were on like a level but he he went with it and fast forward like eight months and Nicole Klogsburn had picked him up and he called me and said dude you've got to come to New York like seriously you got to come to New York and he convinced Nicole to hire me now he would tell that story and say I just told her to interview you I didn't tell her to hire you but I think he opened that door for me and then fast forward to like the economic crisis of 2008 and all that chaos and she laid me off and I was kind of laying on the floor licking my wounds crying my entire identity was tied up in work and I was like I failed despite it obviously being a financial decision and not a performance decision and Rashid was like dude come on you've got this like you're fine go do something do some in your own or you'll get a new job and he just was unwavering in his faith right in his like you've got a vision you've got an agenda you you see are working a way that people don't like go for it and so I did and like quite literally had the confidence to start my own business thinking okay well I just hope that other artists like I helped Rashid and I'll just do crazy stuff and I'll get a brand sponsor and 15 years later I still have that business and it's now morphing into it another thing so he's probably the the most obvious answer and again I think he'd be like did I and I was spinning out that but he did so yeah I mean remarkably meaningful and there are I mean I've got I do I have I have lots of those John Paulson is another huge one Marilyn Minter she wouldn't know it but she's been a huge kind of guiding light for me along the way I mean there are tons one of the things that I've been focused on sort of unintentionally or at least not originally with intention is this idea of documenting legacy and impact with the podcast and I've had the opportunity to have people on who I've known for a really long time and then people you know who I haven't met before and who just kind of you know catch my eye and I think there's something really powerful of giving voice to those stories and offering the opportunity to kind of connect the dots and Rashid of course is a close friend of mine I have had the honor of working on some incredible projects with him I know his spirit of generosity I think that kind of first of all recording of that legacy and then also there's an opportunity I think to have like an increased level of transparency on like the interconnectedness right and you know my I had an opportunity at a time to do something for myself also and the artists who agreed to do that they were so impactful that's I think one of the kind of tips to longevity maybe in the art world is knowing when to do things for yourself so talk a little bit about what it is that you do do and the 15 year business that you're referencing. Well, I kind of do it all. Right. I'm one of those multi-hyphenated methods, if you will. I wasn't very good. Hold on. Did you just say "messes"? Yes. You're good. I have a practice of when someone says something that I about themselves, that I feel like is not a thousand percent positive and itself deprecating or whatever it is that I ask for a clarification because I'm quite certain you're not a mess. That's kind. I. This is like gonna end up being therapy. I think it's okay to be a mess. And I. I mean it. Like I think coloring outside of the lines and making mistakes and kind of finding your own way is beyond important. Right? Like I'm not good at being told. You should do it this way. I've always been contrary. I'm sure my mother would support that statement. And so I don't. I don't see it as a mess like in a bad way but I see it as a mess as it's impossible to really like, you know, elevator pitch explain. And so it is messy. It's like it's been a kind of winding path and I never really had a. This is my mission. Like this is what I'm doing. I started the business really out of Dures and I was like, none of the jobs I was getting offered. I didn't really want to do. One was like doing a gallery out and then tuck it and I was like, "What the hell am I gonna do in a tuck?" I mean seriously it was like bottom of the barrel. But it was 2009 and we weren't in a possible situation and so that's what was available. And I just. I thought I could help some like smaller galleries to better do systems like advise them on press releases and you know how to run little databases through Excel. I mean seriously like simple stuff before there was art watch and so I got a few gigs doing that. And then. And then. Right, seeing and figuring out how it helps all for it. Yeah and I had done a few brand partnerships at Clogsburn so I was like, "Oh, we had done a partnership with W Magazine so that Mika Rottenberg could do a whole like build a whole set and then she shot it for W and then we made a portfolio that we sold as prints and it was like a perfect little ecosystem and so I was like, "Oh, I'll reproduce that again." And I went into meet with Jimmy Moffitt who was at the time the head of Art and Commerce and he was representing photographers and I said to him, "Hey, we could do this with any number of your photographers." And he had like any leave of it, even myself, nickname on his books and he said to me, "Well, actually, what's the deal with your funny accent? Why do you sound like you're kind of English?" And I was like, "Well, I'm actually totally English but I moved to America and I was five." And he said, "I have this photographer in London whose name is Nick Knight and he's trying to run a gallery where he sells props from his fashion shots or or iconic fashion shots like you'll try and sell a Geberda photograph with a Geberda in car like the car that was in the shot and he's like, "I need somebody to go there and run it." And I've had my American assistant there and she's running out of her visa. Could you go?" And I was like, "Absolutely." And and built this insane retainer I thought at the time. And he was like, "Go get on a plane off you go." And at the time I was dating my husband who's British and I was like, "Perfect, I'll figure out the boy. I'll do this thing for like three or four months and then I'll come back to New York and by that time New York will have recovered and it'll be time." And I got here to London and my to my surprise like, Nick Knight had never sold a print and I was like, "You've got all this passive income and here's how to do a print run and this is what a limited edition is." And right I explained all that stuff and we built a strategy together for his archives and then I started helping other fashion photographers and other photographers and so the business kind of started focusing on that and Nick and I worked side by side, you know, twice a week I was in the studio for ten years really helping him build his legacy, secure it and that was awesome. And then I was doing all sorts of stuff outside of that like exhibitions and books and stuff, documentaries. And then I started doing some TV presenting which I loved only because it was like this gorgeous moment where you could sit and ask artists questions that you might not have the balls to ask if the cameras weren't rolling, right? Like, could you sit down with Martin Creed for instance and say to him, "Like, who are you? What do you do?" And I did that. That was great. I loved it and found a whole other side that kind of spoke to my research brain like when I had been doing the masters but also to my like love of art. Hey, like more people can see more stuff if we're doing it in video form. And now that's kind of where the heart of my business sits and when I say like it was a mess because I think it's taken me this long to figure out what the whole point has always been which is to bring, you know, bring the art world that I love and the artists that I love to the fore in the best way that I know how, right? Yes, I'm good at launching exhibitions but I get frustrated by the fact that they're expensive and not that many people come. I mean all the things that you live on a day-to-day basis whereas if I can kind of meet an audience where they are through video that feels like a kind of exciting frontier to pursue and I think that the art world's been kind of slow to grab that space for whatever reason and some people are like, "Oh, it's because the art world hates transparency." I don't know if it's that. I think there's a much more complex answer to that question and I'm kind of excited to like poke the bear. You can find out. Find out where we get to. I think it's super interesting and I think that for a long time, how much like that, right? Like, oh, you know, the art world hates transparency or, you know, one of the things I've been really interested in in the last couple of years is, you know, the difference between, you know, art and the art world, right? And, you know, what what the art world means and, you know, who the art world is. And I think that it's really evolved over time and in many ways, you know, the art world that you and I grew up in, you know, it's just it's almost unnoticeably different now and a lot of people haven't noticed or they're in denial or whatever it is. And I think, you know, it's much more permeable now because it's just so big. And then I think that, you know, quite clever people have mutated what the art world is from the inside as well. And my, you know, my personal mission is to connect people to art and artists to make their lives better, right? And that's agnostic in terms of the how. But I do find that people are still really interested in the art world. And more than that, though, people are really interested in art. And, you know, I think you and I are aligned in a mission to bring that to the broadest possible audience. So, you know, I like your humor and the kind of playfulness with which you're kind of poking at yourself as you're kind of poking at other things. And so, you know, my, you know, to go back to this mess idea, I love the idea of allowing mistakes to happen, right? Because I do think that's super important. And I guess one of my commitments is to kindness, right? And so, you know, being kind to other people comes quite easily for me and, you know, being kind to myself is, of course, like most people, you know, harder. And so, I just try and kind of ask questions about that. Like, hey, is that kind? You know, like, so, so talk a little bit about the video project and what kind of form is it taking? Well, that's so well said, right? And one of the things that artists 100% have taught me is that that's ideal that like making a mess or making a mistake is okay. Because, and, and, Hill, I encountered that side of the art world, the art world that you and I do know intimately, I wasn't clear that that was an option. And again, like, if that's part of the mission, it's like, I want to expose this, this side of the art world, this like, that artists are trying really hard to mess things up so that they can find answers. And so, yeah, so this, this new project we launched in September, it's called scene. It's a membership-based model. So, subscription-based model to video content. Artists interviews are at our core, much like what you do with the podcast. But we video-based, so that people can see art I think and watch, like, watch them. I do think it's funny how many people will know say, Rashid's work, but maybe not what he looks like. And in a major video, that just seems weird. But I also felt like there needed to be a single place and it's wild to me that it hadn't happened and if I'm being totally honest, this was inspired by my two small kids who are both boys and the way that they consume content and media is really different. We're annoyingly restrictive on their watching time or their screen time, but we do let them watch on the weekends and so I'd see them kind of going on to YouTube, never on to Trust or TV and they'd always want to watch their favorite experts in mountain biking and like they know they're four or five main voices in that space already. They're like, "Oh, Matt Jones is going to drop another thing," or "I come in, there's left name right now." He's going to drop something and I was like, "Well, hide the art world not have this." Like, why are we not trying to get the 11-year-old who sat in you know their home? Why aren't we trying to get them to engage in the art world? It's kind of strange. And so I had that little thought and I told you about the TV presenting that I'd loved and out like, "Could we build a place like a single destination where we do kind of mean an audience where it is and we attract a new generation of collector, you know, the next generation of collector, and we bring the man and we show them how amazing someone like Rashida is. We show them how amazing, Bubeina Hamidas or any of the people I've interviewed so far. And we really let them talk and we don't do the art speak thing. We talk to them like you and I are talking right now, right? Like an honest open discussion. And then I was like, that's the stupidest idea I've ever had. One, I don't have like, I'm not a millionaire. I'm not who literally try to make a business work. Who's got the money for this? Not me. And two, like, is anyone going to subscribe? I don't know. And I parked it. And then I met this guy called Simon Walker at a party. And he is the founder of Marquis TV, which is kind of the Netflix for performing arts. So if you want to watch the Phil Harmonica or the ballet in any country, you pay $9.99 and you can do that if you subscribe to Marquis. And he had just launched Countryline, which is the equivalent for country music. And he said to me, I've always wanted to do something in art. And I just don't know how. And I was like, well, of course, you don't know how because no one wants to watch Pete drawing. It's not a performance, right? There's not a beginning, middle and end like the ballet. So you can't do that. And he's like, no, no, but we could. And I was like, no, no, we couldn't. One away with his business card in my hand and thoughts. Is like the world trying to tell me something? Maybe there's maybe there's something to this. And then I wrote like a 15 page document that talked to myself out of it, you know, like what would the content be and what would the interviews look like? And how would they be different? And how could I possibly penetrate this market? And do I have the authority? Is it the thing? And I honestly, I talked to myself out of it. And but I just couldn't let it go. So I said it for meeting with him. And we had a whole discussion and he was like, I think, I think there's something in this. And then I mean, God, this is going to end up being the theme of this whole conversation. But I then took it to a client and mentor and that puts you 100 businessmen and said to him, hey, I'm thinking of doing this. And this is kind of the ballpark numbers. Am I crazy? Like I should just stay in my lane, right? And like, it's kind of amazing that I've survived this long that I haven't had to go get a like, couldn't go real job. I should just sit down and shut up. And I expected him to say, yeah, like don't rock the boat. You're doing great. And content is so expensive. This is crazy. Don't do it. And he was like, if you don't do this, I'll never buy anything from you ever again. And I was like, oh, okay, if that could you think of a good idea? And he's like, no, but I think you think it's a great idea. And if you don't follow your gut here, you're going to regret it. And he had since like completely spurred me on in a million ways and did put some money into like, get it started and a way we went. And what's been remarkable, again, coming back to like the people that support you, it has been the industry response, right? Like you have obviously come across me quite recently. And it's because of this like very consistent mission to connect the real world with the art world. And to just be honest about how great it is and be like, unabashedly geeky about the things that I love or unabashedly angry about the things that I don't. Right? So that's the whole thing. Yeah. And honestly, that's one of the things that I noticed, you know, was the first time I noticed was you were mad about something. And I thought that was so great because, you know, the art world that you know, we grew up in, I think really started the end of art criticism. And now of course, you know, cultured is reintroducing art criticism, you know, but before we were in the art world, art critics had an opinion, right? Like famously, Donald Judd was, you know, wrote these just completely harsh reviews of art, but people had an opinion about art and they were allowed to. Right? And so this whole idea of like the allowance. And I mean, I talked about how important it is to be kind. And, you know, there's somehow this corresponding relationship between this time in life where this idea that, you know, you get an award for participating, right? You know, like your kids play soccer and at the end, you know, or I remember like there was a costume contest for my kids on Halloween. They work so hard and they're like, oh, the judges thought about it and everyone wins. And I was like, what? Everyone wins. Like all the costumes, they're not equal. Some are better than others. Right? And I mean, I grew up at a time where some things are better than others, but now, you know, since I've been in the art world and since I've had kids, it's like, oh, no, everyone's the same. Like everyone, it's equally good and it's just not true. I mean, it becomes like the death of connoisseurship and all these other things, right? And so now I noticed you were mad about something and I don't even remember if I agreed with you or I didn't agree with you, but I just appreciated that you were mad. And of course, other people are mad about things, but no one says anything. And, you know, again, there's a way to be kind and polite at the same time. And it's okay to have an opinion because we do, because not everything is equal. Well, right. And like being able to talk to you, like I noticed before this, I was looking at what's on at your museum, but I was like, oh, you've got Martin Creed up. I can imagine that a million people are coming to you and being like, give me why are there a bunch of balloons in the museum? And it's like, that's the point. That's the whole point is that I want somebody to say to me, I completely disagree with you. I hate that. And I want to think about why they hate it. And I want to think about, you know, like art for me is about that dialogue. And I do, I think I was so busy having those conversations in my head or with people that I trusted in the community. And I was like, why are we just doing this out loud? Like, let's do it out loud. Let's have the conversation that I'm lucky to have with people like LouBaina. Let's do it in front of other people to, I mean, hopefully foster a bit more like open disagreements about like, wait, I don't understand that. Or can you explain that to me? And I didn't expect that part to be so important. But I think it is. And I think it's, it's why the art world and my art is so so important, right? Because it does make us think in all the ways. Yeah, hopefully, you know, and I think, you know, that's one of the downsides, right? Of a huge, you know, art world, right? Is that for commercial success, things become homogenized. And it becomes commercial. And commercial isn't bad. I mean, I've always wanted artists to have money. You know, I've never thought that the the trope of the starving artist is is appropriate for our time. And, you know, within that, I think that there's an opportunity to encourage, you know, more creativity and more diversity of perspective, right? And I think that's one of the things that that I was always drawn to is people whose opinions were different than mine, who I could learn from and be better through that experience. Yeah. And I can imagine, well, I mean, I do kind of want to ask you about particularly, we ask them conversations, but conversations. So, no, yeah, I can ask you. Oh, good. I mean, yeah, I'm not interviewing you. It's what I mean. Good. Good. Good. Good. All conversations about art. And then I dropped the conversations part, but it they are conversations. The best ones are. Yeah. Well, but so for you, right? You were in New York. Then you went to Aspen. And I can just imagine that that shift was giant in the way that I felt when I got to, right? I had going up pivoting between London because my dad was here and we were in sort of suburban New York. And so I'd gone between those two major cities and I end up in Seattle. We're like Kind of anything was possible. You know, you can do anything you could call Kim McCarthy and be like Can I have your artwork for a show in a small nonprofit and I was I was working with just amazing, right? You just your access to the tippy top was very easy Then you go back to a major city and it's like oh get back in your box like You're you're just the lowly low person remember that But did you find that when you got to ask them that you could kind of Push a bit more and do Crazier things. Yes, you're nodding your head. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So I You know, I grew up on the west coast I was born in New York and then I grew up on the west coast and I went to school on the east coast and then I went to London for a year and And then I went to New York and then I went to Berkeley from New York and that's really Where my career was made at the Berkeley Art Museum. I did 41 person exhibitions in six and a half years and You know, and I really When we I was I had recently married my first husband and when we left New York everyone thought we were insane and Our whole community was like how can you leave and I had already worked in a museum and I had opened this Space at the front of my, you know first husband's office, you know Like pushed all his stuff back. It was on Ludlow Street on the Lower East Side and I did exhibitions there because I was working the tuition museum and I couldn't get on the calendar You know because I was like a kid there was you know, no space for me anyway, I Decided to take this job at the Berkeley Art Museum and we moved across the country and again all of our friends were like how can you leave here? This is the center of everything and I remember sitting on the front steps of our apartment on like the 29th of December because we had driven across the country and it was warm and I was sitting in a short safe shirt and I was like I'm pretty sure we made the right choice and Yeah, there was something about being outside of the quote-unquote center that allowed a lot of freedom and then I took the job in Aspen for a similar reason and and the the dealer Tony Meyer said to me Because by that point I already had two kids and you know, he said if you go to Aspen When everyone is there you'll be crazy busy, you know like you won't even be able to breathe There'll be so many things for you to do and then when everyone goes home off season You'll be able to run the museum but also you know, raise your kids and it was Like you said about Rashid. I'm sure he doesn't even remember telling me that but it was advice that changed my life and I was able to think about Aspen in a way To encourage people to come there and say like hey, you can use it as sort of a retreat. You can bring your family You know red Thomas L.A.K. And I said, you know bring your wife and your son He his son and my son were playing soccer. They broke a window at the museum with the ball You know, but it was a way to have like a full life and to be Outside of the center and and punch above my weight and then you know deserve the attention that I got once people started paying attention and it was really kind of a A genius way to to have a career and to have a life and build a program and to learn right? I mean the risks I was willing to take in Seattle I just never would have had the balls to do it in in New York And then you know when I go back to New York, then I was like all right, let's go time we can do this But I think I think it is so important to have To have that kind of in the back of your head I was speaking to someone who he'd like I want to be a curator and I was like great Are you willing to do wild stuff like do are you prepared to Put on an exhibition in an office like in any space you can get she was like what you mean? No, I'll just pitch to you And I was like, that's not gonna work. I mean maybe it will. I don't think so Yeah, yeah, and my first major show at the Jewish Museum when I was working there It was called well, I called it the Hanukkah project But the marketing department called it light times eight and it was in the stairwells in the Moat that went around the museum on Fifth Avenue in the gift shop in All the spaces that no one else wanted and it was you know, oh a for a license first project in the United States So it's that was cool. Yeah Creativity and and daring right and you know convincing artists to I mean I I took Olaf outside to show him the windows of the gift shop and he was like, well, you know What's this and I said what do you mean? I had already worked there like four years and didn't realize we were standing on this moat That went around the museum and he said, but you know, let's use this so I mean that that is the The joy of working with with artists. I did this with John Poulson He I'd interviewed him for this interview series. I've never met him before and it was great And he was wonderful as only John can be charming. I mean just a charming man But an architect and then he sent me this book that had come out with Fiden that was this like photography book and it it's called Spectrum and it starts with white and goes all the way through the Black in the in the color spectrum and there's 320 photos and I kept picking up this this book It's it's very pick up a bowl in size and scale kind of you like and You know, you have so many books behind you. I've got so many books downstairs I don't really return to books over and over and over but if I do I'm kind of mindful as to why And I had just had my second kid I think He was tiny. I think I yeah, so maybe I had time to look closely But I called him and I was like, hey, I can't put this book down. I think it should be an exhibition. He's like great Okay, I was like, oh, okay And I was like, no, no, but I think we've got to think of a way to show all 320 photos And he was like great Okay, and I was like and maybe they they need to you know all of them at once Like perfect go do it. Let's do it Now I'm gonna go figure that out like how do I figure that out and then I had seen his face And so I called a person who had this the amazing face called 180 strand and at the time the only people that had showed That was like the hayward and listen was about to do their 20 year Anniversary show and then little me raising my hand being like I think maybe we could do an exhibition with John Poff and all his photographs. He's never shown before and the man that on the building was like sounds great You know, so that was like oh Okay, I'm now gonna launch a show of 320 photographs in a we're in like an abandoned warehouse that has construction upstairs and Oh my god, what am I thinking and John and devised of this hanging system that was so elegant and beautiful and worked against the wrongness of that space but like It's exactly your The mode with all of our lives and right as they the artist just they're so great They see things and they can run with ideas in the most graceful way We're just lucky I guess I just want to underscore that comment right which is Artists see things that we can't see or we haven't yet seen and being open to that Information is life changing and part of it is about being a good listener and I think that A lot of people are just running all the time and so things get missed and there's so many beautiful things about life in the world and Insights and expansiveness and opportunities that come from being open to Information wherever it comes from and those kind of Bits of genius are for me what has always attracted me to to our best because I do believe they can see things that we can't or we haven't yet seen Absolutely and as you said right like that ultimately I think make us feel better Right like art Art certainly makes me feel better and I think most people if you can get them to slow down for long enough to experience Looking it makes them feel better even if it makes them feel awkward at first or even if the subject was hard I think that there's a There's a destination to feeling better and art that we don't talk about enough So I always ask everyone you know why art matters and I'd love to ask you that and I also want to ask you a little bit maybe at the same time or after about What it feels like to be made to feel better by art man Well, so I can give you a I can give you a very concrete example I can give you many concrete examples of art making me feel better a recent one Was a kind of extraordinary one but over the summer I had some kind of real life loss just back-to-back and You know a hard run in the end of August really September and I kept Running into Joel Messler's work online. It's like the algorithm was showing like literally just On Instagram. I didn't I know Joel Jules work, I don't know him, but I kept seeing these paintings. had like joy and hugs. And I was like, get away from me. Like, I like hard work. I like dark work. I like really heavy, hard hitting work. You know, I don't want hugs and joy and text and happiness and bubble writing and balloon. Like, I just, I was like, this is weird and I keep seeing it. But it actually kept making me feel better. Like, like so much so that I put it on my phone. And my husband was like, what's that? That's kind of cool. But it's very on you. And I was like, well, it's artist. He's not new to it. The most people, but he's kind of new to me. And I don't know. It's like, it's making me feel I'm taking a deep breath. And yeah, it like honestly, honestly made me feel better and made me think about like the one thing that I really needed, this sounds so ridiculous. But like, I needed a hug. I needed a hug from everyone around me. I needed a hug from myself. I needed a like, I just, I like fun. I needed that fundamental thing that are kids need, that we need, that makes us human, right? And it was there, like, bear in this giant, joyful canvas. And then I started to look into Joel and his practice and understand, began to sort of understand how layered. That was for him and that it's not just this joyful thing, right? There's this much bigger story. So that was a, that's a very recent personal anecdote to start making me feel better. And it really did make me feel better. And then I happened to run into him during Basil Paris, a Paris basil, whatever, which around way around was supposed to say it now. And I had this like complete, oh, hi. Your artwork really did a thing. I'm gushed all over him. And then this completely embarrassed him. It's like, oh, my god, I'm such a loser. And now he and I are like, you know, hanging out on the old DMs and occasional text message. And I'm hoping I'll do a show with him and maybe an interview with him before too long. But yeah, that was a real, like a proper, I mean, even telling the story in a bit like, oh, because it did. It really made me feel better. And so what do I think is the point of art or the, does somebody ask me what the point, why is that important? The question is, you know, why art matters? And as you think of it for a second, I'll just go back to Martin Creed and the yellow balloons. It's called Half the Air in any given space. And so we calculated the cubic square footage of that gallery and then figured out the number of balloons. You know, how much air goes into each one. And I had someone come through the space with me. And some people are like, oh, I don't want to go in 'cause my hair's going to be static. And, you know, and of course, that's like a potential problem. And I get that. And I took someone in there, CEO of a local company. I mean, not local, but anyway, who worked locally. And he said, you know, I was having a bad morning. And I feel better now. And I said, yep, you know, 'cause I walked him all the way to the end and he's like knocking balloons out of the space. And of course, you know, Martin, let me choose the color. And I chose yellow because we have the sunshine here usually. And so, you know, I'm grateful also for your description of Jewel's work because I have a similar relationship, you know, to him and the work. I really don't know him, but I know the work. And I'm also kind of like, yuck, you know, but then I'm like, well, why do I think that? Like, what's wrong with positivity, right? (laughs) In art. So, anyway, I'm going to go and look at it again and probably use one of the images for this. So, grateful for that. And that's one of the reasons why I love art and talking about art with other people 'cause I learn something new every single time. So, yeah, the question is, you know, why does art matter? I think at the end of the day, we're all trying to figure out what it is to be human and artists do it better than anybody else. And without art, I do mean this. Without art, there is like what is the point? Right, I was trying to, I was trying to, I was trying to really frustrated about, and I felt frustrated about this forever, but you know, if you look at the way art is rewarded in society, we are way low down on the tone and pull, right, the guy that sits on the bench of the New York giants gets paid more than our most successful artists. And our biggest jobs in the industry are paid fractions of what the biggest jobs in say banking do. So, art is not rewarded in society, but it is essential to us like being okay, right? And that extends from what people like Martin Creed are doing all the way through to, well, it extends to everything. I don't think that's really answered the question, but maybe kind of has. - Yeah, it's interesting because your answer, and of course, there is no one answer, and not anyone would give the same answer every time they're asked, right? So, it's kind of a trick question in a funny way, right? Because, and that's the beauty of art too, it's not ever one thing. It's many things, it's different things in every moment just like life, right? That's the inherent beauty of it is how quicksotic it is, how quickly it changes, all the different ways it can serve and be and is. And maybe at the essence, your answer was very similar to Rashid's when I asked him, because he said something like, well, 'cause nothing else does, right? Or something like that. And I'm sure that's not the answer he would give today, or yesterday, or whatever, but it's kind of that notion, right? Of like, well, what else matters? It's the core of how we know how to exist. I think for me too, it centers me in the world, right? So that I can feel the edges of who I am and why I am, I guess, and why other people are. So you look at something like Rashid's work, or Lubain is, and you understand more about yourself. I'm not such a giant gift. I wanna ask you a little bit about the audience of your content, no, your media. What do you know about them? Who are they? And gosh, what do they like about what you do? What kind of feedback do you have? - So, I mean, my Instagram world and then the scene.art worlds are a little bit different, which is curious to me. I mean, this is all brand new, right? We launched, well, weeks ago. We launched, seen that art 12 weeks ago. We launched my kind of Instagram switch a year ago where I started talking instead of just writing my thoughts. The audience on Insta is, it's split evenly between America and England, which I think is funny. So my whole weird accent isn't killing anybody yet, though I do get lots of comments. People are like, "Why do you sound so weird?" And can you pick a side? And I'm like, I really can't, like, put my passport in the fridge. I've been in both places for equal amounts of time. And then demographic wise, they're all a bit younger than me. So I'm 45 and it's the sort of 35 to 45 on Instagram. That is my biggest market. There's a lot of artists, interestingly. But they're not the most vocal, which is interesting as well. So I've got some great collectors. I've got great industry folk. And like I said, or I started to say, I've been blown away by the industry's response to what I'm trying to do. And then the scene members are split evenly. I didn't expect that. But evenly we have a friend tier, which is like seven pounds a month or $10 a month. And we've got a bunch of people in there who are all artists. And I did expect that. And then we have the same amount of people in the collector tier, which is 40 pounds a month. And those are kind of young professionals who maybe don't understand the art world and want to get into it. And they're sort of trying to learn how to collect. And we do, I do like office hours where I run down one of the things I'm most excited about seeing in London at the moment. My hope is that one day we'll have people like me in local art communities so that you can do office hours for LA and office hours for New York and Berlin and all the kind of major commercial capitals. My hope is also to have, there's an amazing writer called Chad Scott. I don't know if he's come across him, but he does a bunch of writing for Forbes about the sort of non-art world proper, so the non-commercial centers and looks at art and the fringes. So having people like him giving voice to those, I hate to say second-tier cities, but they are. I don't know how else to describe them. So it's been interesting. And it's been what's been great is that debate, right? Like when someone disagreed with me and I'll go back and forth with them for ages, I had someone who was in the comments on a post furious with me about something and I was like, oh my god, I'm going down. like this person hates me. Well, this is insane. And now he's an artist in New York who I talk to regularly that we kind of found a way through. But yeah, it's an interesting mix of people. - Curious about your perspective on the word curator, the choice to use, you know, curates in your kind of praising, and would love to hear your perspective on that word. I have a great thought, you know, being a proper curator, a proper, yeah, I, gosh, I mean, some of it comes back to you. It's really hard to describe who I am and what I do. I have a master's in our history. I ran commercial galleries for years. I started my own business. How do you describe that business in one sentence? - You can't. I've curated a lot of exhibitions, some in museums, some in crazy spaces, like I described the John Pazin show, some in commercial galleries. And I thought it was really interesting that about 10 years ago, I was like, I think I need to call myself an artist or I mean, but I don't think I can call myself an artist or I mean, 'cause I only have a master's not a PhD, but I actually don't know what the rules are. But I can call myself a curator, 'cause everyone's a curator of these days. Like you can carry a bag of chips. There's literally a bag of crisps here that are called curator. Now, it's like joking. And so, and then I did a deep dive into like, what actually is a curator and what does it mean and what's the root of it? And anyone can tell themselves that. And that's kind of messed up because you can't just call yourself a doctor. Right, and you are a proper curator. You're like a grown up curator. And I'm out here calling myself one, but I have curated a lot of stuff. So, yeah, it also was just one of those moments and I did switch the name over again at the end of, the end of 23 because I was like, I've got to figure out a handle that just says what I do on the 10, because if we're gonna get people who are not art people over, like if we're gonna convert them, we've gotta be really simple. So, Kerry's got Curates and it has the good rings. Let's just run with that. But it does make me really grumpy when people are like, I'm gonna, I curated a trip to Morocco. Oh my God, you haven't. You haven't, you've planned a trip and I'm proud of you. That's great, good. Go to Morocco, have a great time, but you can't use that word, dammit. But you must think, you must think, oh God, everyone's out here calling themselves up. Even more than I think it. It's just so interesting, the different relationships we can have with language, right? Like for me, for a long time, being a curator was aspirational, right? Like, oh, if I could be a curator, if I, you know, and then if you're a curator assistant or an assistant curator and then like you get to be a curator and then like a senior curator and a chief curator, you know, these things, right? And then at a certain point, I was like, oh, when people refer to me as a curator, even though I'm a director or like a 19 year CEO, right? Then I feel like, oh, is it diminutive, right? So it's so interesting, you know. So I try and sit with my own feelings and emotions about language and words and what they mean. And I mean, it's interesting 'cause we sort of started the conversation at that place too about like the power of language. And I guess the last thing I wanna ask you about is humor and how important you think it is in and around art. Ah. Huh. How important is humor? I would have said, I would have said, it's not important a year ago, maybe two years ago. Like art is serious, art has to be serious. It's really serious. We're doing serious stuff out here. We should talk about rigor. And you know, it's all serious. But I don't think, you know, in my way of it, Socrates was like beauty is the bait. I don't think we're gonna get anyone in the door unless we're a little bit humble and a little bit able to laugh at ourselves, right? And so it's not lost on me, right? I have had to embrace how ridiculous it is that I sit here and I'm like, hey, guys, let me tell you the thing, right? And I have to just kind of laugh at myself 'cause it's ridiculous or like I'll be getting ready and I'll have a thought and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna have to do this right now, like half dressed in my closet with bad lighting and, eh, okay, we're just gonna do this. That's kind of funny, I guess. So I think it's important to help get people in the door. Do I think it's important for artists, not necessarily, but then you think about Martin Creed or Joel, and they are bringing humor into it hugely. So it probably is as important as the whole Rigger's Serious project. - Yeah, I appreciate your answer and one of the things that I've been embracing for quite a while, it's this idea of like the both end, right? Instead of the either or and I find that in your practice and I appreciate that. And I'm drawn to you and your work as an example of the connection of art and entrepreneurship and the balance between sort of the scrappy, right? Which is maybe the same thing as like the messy and then also like the elegance and the lightness. And I'm grateful to get to spend this time with you and to learn a little bit more about you and your practice. - Well, listen, Heidi, this will be one of those markers for me, right? Like it's not often that, yeah, but like a big grown up director of a big grown up important museum says, "Hey, do you want us to down-talk?" And do you want us to down-talk publicly? It was a real like I got the email and was like, "Oh, Molly, this is cool." So properly validating and just awesome to meet you. And yeah, it does feel like there's some synergy and what we're trying to do and what a bunch of people are trying to do, like a real important work to make sure that art is valued in society. And I think it needs to be sort. I applaud you and I thank you and this has been cool. - Yeah, thanks. I enjoyed it and it's worth getting up for. So that's a very good marker, a very good marker. Wasn't that conversation amazing? It just gets to the very essence of how art can make you feel better and how we can understand ourselves by looking at works of art, even those that we thought we didn't like or that we thought weren't for us. My next guest is my longtime friend and colleague, Stefan Yost. Stefan is the director of the Art Gallery of Ontario in Toronto and he has been there for nine years. We met maybe 25 years ago when he was the director of the Mills College Museum of Art and I was the Matrix Curator at the Berkeley Art Museum. He is one of my favorite people in the art world and of course that says a lot. I know you'll enjoy it. Thanks for being part of our community. I am immensely grateful for your time and attention. About art is part of the Why Art Matters project, a global initiative that makes art accessible, relevant and transformational. We connect all to art through books, a podcast series, talks, brand collaborations, TV and more. This episode was mixed by William Melbourne. Our theme music was composed by Eric McDougal. If you like what you hear, please subscribe and review us on whichever platform you listen as it helps us further our goal of connecting all to art. We'll be back again every other Tuesday with new episodes. Thank you so much for being part of our community. [BLANK_AUDIO]