Carla Hall on cooking, courage, and curiosity

(upbeat music) - I love black eyepiece. - Oh my God, I love black eyepiece! And so in the summer, I'm gonna do a black eyepiece salad 'cause I'm like, I'm not waiting. - Listen, I haven't eaten one this week! I've been eating one this week. - Okay, we're on the same wavelength. You get it. - There's a quick tip. You can get a regular store bought hummus. Get you a can of black eyepiece and just put them in the food processor, a little bit of oil. Maybe if you wanna do some tahini, you can. But honestly, it gives you that quick fix of black eyepiece. Get you some carrots. Girl, you can grill some celery. What? - And this is why we have you here today because you're gonna get me together. (upbeat music) - Today's guest takes me back to my early 20s. The year was 2008. I was a senior at Howard University. My friend Keith and I were on my food time watching one of our favorite shows, Top Chef. There was one competitor who we couldn't take our eyes off. She was funny, she was electric. Episode after episode she made us wonder, who is this girl? - I think it's really important to have a really good attitude. At the point where I wasn't doing well, winning for me was to not be scared where I shut down. - She was so her and she could cook her tail off. She was one of the only chefs to come in there from catering, not a brick and mortar business. Her name was Carla Hall. Carla didn't fit into a lot of people's ideas about what a TV day you looked like. She was authentic, she was spontaneous. She was undeniably herself. Since then, Carla has become a fixture in the food and entertainment world. From her tenure on the television show The Chew. - It's over brown pie crust, keeping your pie from scoring a perfect 10. Well, this quick tip will ensure a perfectly golden crust every time. - To her roles in Bojack Horseman and Girl's Tripp. - I consider Carla to be the queen of the pivot. She's always doing something new. Now, as I've gotten older, I've realized how hard changing lanes like that can be. Your responsibilities are bigger. You're thinking about retirement and possibly starting to slow down into a more conventional lifestyle. But at 62, Carla is still going at it. She's just coming off a one-woman show and has a new cookbook. Carla bakes out now. Today, Carla's here with me to talk about how to make your next move, whether it's finding your new career or finding your next recipe. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Loose and you're listening to its "Benham Minute" from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. And a reminder, if you love its "Benham Minute," which from the sweet comments you all have been leaving, it sounds like maybe you do. Be sure to follow or subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app. That way, you get new episodes the moment they drop. I mean, I've been watching you for almost two decades now and you had all these different stints before you got the television from accounting to modeling. But I mean, even still now in your career, you're always doing something different. Your host ain't cookbook writing. Acting, we're gonna get to that later. But anyway, I think of you as the queen of the pivot, but I'm wondering like how do you know when you've outgrown a space versus when it's time to tough it out and weather this storm? How do you know when it's time to pivot? One, I'm curious and I don't mind not knowing how to do something. I'm okay with asking people. There's a part of me, there's a sense of learning as much as I can and then not feeling fulfilled in that space. I will stop and listen. Now, now, I must say, and my father was probably the only person who knew this and he called me out on it. When I was in accounting and it was so stressful, I quit and he said, "You were afraid of failure, weren't you?" Huh. Yes. Dang. Yeah. And that was something I never told anybody. The job itself was really challenging. It was at the time when we went from floppy to that disc. I remember, when you were at a computer, if you didn't save it right, if you came back, then you had your other version after all the work that you had done. Yes. Well, that happened to me a few times, working on it and at work and it was just so stressful. Now, I quit, but looking back, I understand that sometimes when you're working so hard to make something happen, that is not for you. That is not for you. I think sometimes we're so used to working at something, working really hard, that we're not leaning into our natural gifts, which is why I love an assessment. I did an aptitude test like you're hit and genius, I do it for strength, so whatever. Yes, I did Myers-Briggs, I did all of those things. And what I found, there are certain things that I have an aptitude for. And when I look at accounting, my brain worked in that way, but the environment did not work for me. Doing the same thing every day, going to the same place, did not work for me. And I'm going to tell you what else, like looking back. So I did the chew for seven seasons, right? - Yes, that's a lot. - Yes, that's a lot of shows. - Yeah. - Looking at it now, if somebody said, hey, we'll pay you millions of dollars to go and do a show and you have to be there every day, I couldn't do it. I don't care how much money I couldn't do it. I know that I'm not meant for that world. As I get older, I understand how I have to work. I need to be learning and changing and doing something else. - How do you know what to grow into next? - You have to be open to the signs and around you. I don't consider myself ambitious. I consider myself curious. - Interesting, what do you think is the difference? - I don't do things for fame, money, exposure, accolades, I don't do it for those things. I think success at this age is having the ability to choose the thing that I want to do. What versus somebody telling me where I can find success because they don't know my heart. I think I get bored. I think in my mind, when I start thinking about other things to do and where to go, it's been maybe time to transition. Now, this is different for everybody. And what I'm saying is you have to understand how your mind and body and spirit ticks but people don't tend to do that work. A lot of times people will say to me, "Oh, I love what you're doing right. "I really want you to mentor me." But if I put them on this treadmill, they'd be like, "Damn, I don't want to do all that." (laughing) "I don't want to do all that." It's not just that you're curious. I see how like, you know, curiosity can lead you to your next thing and you look for the clues that you know that you're interested or that you're looking around at what's next. But I think for a lot of people, the fear of what's next, it paralyzes them from taking steps towards maybe perhaps a greater or better for them, but more uncertain life. Are there ways that food or cooking has helped you figure out what's next? And how do you overcome the fear of moving into a new space? - I mean, I get the fear and sometimes there's freedom and being able to financially choose to do something. I get that. I get that. But when I had a lunch delivery service, I worked every single day from 25 to 30 until I went to culinary school. I went, I worked every single day. Like every day, every day. I could do not. And Saturday Sunday. - Saturday Sunday. - 24/7. - 24, if you were visiting me, you two were working. - Damn. - I was either delivering or prepping food, right? - All the time. - So there's a part of me and as a caterer that went, I'm a recover caterer now. But there's a part of me that is not afraid of hard work. I will do the grant work to get to a particular place. When I look at like a recipe, like the analogy of cooking. A lot of people are afraid to mess up on a recipe. I'm like, I mean, how much did it cost you? This lesson is $10. So even if you quote unquote fail, I look at it as an experience. The experience is going to give you information. If you make a recipe as it is and you don't like it, you have to say, why don't I like it? Do I not like the texture? Do I not like the flavors? Do I not like the steps? Why don't I like it? As soon as you identify why you don't like something, then you change that thing that you didn't like. But you don't throw away the recipe because you can tweak the recipe because why throw away the experience when you can change the experience, right? You can tweak the experience. It's like you have agency. You have agency. And I think a lot of times, especially with recipes and having cookbooks. I've had people say, oh my God, that recipe was the best. Another person talking about the same recipe. He's like, oh my God, that recipe sucked. And then I changed all these recipes. I mean, both people are right. Their experiences are at home. I'm not there. right? Their taste buds are different. But my thing is, you have to own the part that you did. Right? I think a lot of people never want to mess up. So, and always joke about this. If they're doing a recipe and it's good and everybody's loving it, they're like, oh my god, thank you. I made this cake. Okay. Okay. I mean, thank you. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So can you let the people not like it? Oh, yeah, that's Carlos recipe. Then you got to take the blame. Right. I take the blame. People don't want to take responsibility. My thing in my life, I will take responsibility. Even if I go out there right now and I fall, I'm like, oh, dang. Look, what, what, what I follow? Why did I need to follow? Do I need to see something from this vantage point on the ground somewhere? Right? Mm hmm. You know, everything is useful. And that's also what I mean about, you know, switching paths. I don't go out to look for a switch in paths. I am involved and excited and participating in life. So if I go out and somebody says, hey, do you want to do blah, blah, blah? Really don't want to go. Really? I usually go, wait, why? Because sometimes, when you really don't want to do something, something is shutting down. But when you go, have you ever gone to a thing you're like, I almost didn't come to this. Yes, yes, yes. Right. And then you're there and you're like, oh, my God. This is amazing. I'm so glad. I stepped out. That is a kin to fear that you will have when you're having a new experience. Huh. Sometimes you just have to say yes to the experience because your ego is telling you no, but really you should probably go. You should probably say yes. You grandmother, I believe you said, taught you really that it was your job to be happy, not to be rich. Yeah. How did that philosophy shape the risks that you took in life? And it hasn't ever complicated things for you. I will say no to something in a heartbeat. I have learned from my early 20s to trust my gut. And it doesn't mean that I don't go through hard things. That is not it at all. But I can say in a situation that I am learning that I am trying to understand how to maneuver in that job or that place versus my spirit feeling like it is crushed. Right. Even though I mean, I've been through some spirit crushing experiences, but I also in hindsight realized that that experience was a messenger of my lessons that I needed for the next thing. I don't know how to tell somebody when to stay and when to go, but I do know there's a part of me that feels like I am learning through all of the hard stuff. Hmm. Even though I honestly feel like I'm going to lose my mind. I mean, I don't know. But that's, I mean, what you're talking about though is I value. Like there's a value there. There's a value in in what you're experiencing. Kind of like the flip side of thinking about things in terms of dollar amount or yes, obviously everybody wants to be secure. Everybody wants to not worry where they're going to stay or how they're going to pay their bills or what they're going to eat. But beyond that, thinking really about value, it feels to me like what you're talking about that, like something is painful or difficult doesn't mean that there was absolutely zero value there for you necessarily. Yeah. Correct. Coming up after the break is sort of a breakfast take on sweet grits. And if you do this recipe, you too will be putting sugar in your grits. Stick around. Honestly, I've so enjoyed this conversation to hearing all these stories, but you have been telling stories in a whole other way recently. We got to talk about your one woman show. Yes. For those who might not know, can you tell us where it's about? What is it called? What do you do when, give us a taste? So the play is called, please underestimate me. And it's biographical. I talk about wanting to be the black careful net, not going to culinary school, ending up in a counting, doing top chef and then ending up on the two. And the framework is of the two. It's a fictitious clicking show called the perfect bite. And so we come in and out of that framework as flashbacks and some of the challenges and bad relationships, good relationships that I had. I have been wanting to do this for seven years. I started working on it, thinking about it at 55. And I started saying, what do I need? I told my agency, look, I want to do voiceovers and cameo roles. I got an acting coach. I broke down what I needed to manifest this thing. I'm not going to just pop up in there and just say, hey, I'm Carla Hall. I'm going to do a one woman show. Yeah. In 2023, I was talking to the show runner for Halloween baking championship Leslie Thomas. And I said, I really want to do a one woman show. It's just keep talking to people and she's like, okay, let's do it. I'm like, wait, what? I was in my dressing room getting ready, like going through a fitting for the show. And she said, my wife just did a workshop on solo shows. Let's do it. They were helping to write these vignettes. And they're just magical writers. And then we presented something, we were ghosted. No problem. But you know what? We worked out write ups of the vignettes to send them so that when somebody came back to say, hey, we want to see what you're working on. We had something to send them. Ghosting is just preparedness. Right? Nothing is wasted. And then it was very clear when somebody came back and we had that and we just shot it off like boom, boom, everything happens in its own time. It was 54 pages of script. My biggest fear and worry was as a postman of Paul's a woman, I would forget everything. I couldn't learn 54 pages of script because girl, sometimes I'm like, Matthew, past the the the he's on. Yes. The rehearsals were six days a week. And there's just me on the 10th day. It's a Sunday. I didn't have a great rehearsal. I was crying. I was like, I can't do this. I can't do this. I think I just have to tell the theater. They have to refund the money tickets. Yeah. I was like, I can't. And then I come out. Everybody's like, oh, that was great. That was great. My director was like, yeah, that one good. And the thing is, I would say that when they were like, it was great. I don't need platitudes. I know it wasn't great. It didn't feel great in my body. My director, Lillianne Brown, Helen Hayes, award winning director. She knew how to talk to me and how to get me to like dig deep. She said, we're going to do it again. I was so mad at her, but all of the emotions of that anger, I needed and I poured into the script. And it was the best rehearsal up to that point that I had had. And that was a turning point. And when I tell you, I went from breakdown to breakthrough. Wow. And sometimes when you're at that precipice and you're having the breakdown, if it's left of your own devices, you just spiral down. I knew I had to keep going because I knew that there are like 10 people there who are working watching me. I couldn't just sit down. I had to keep going. And that was the turning point of the show. And I said, okay, I can do this. Well, you continue to break new ground and do new things. And that includes a new cookbook that you have out now called Carla Bakes. Yes. And it feels like, yes, I got my, I got my copy right here on my shelf. It feels like a roadmap through the relationships, the circle touch points and the travels that that made you who you are. You got Southern classics like pound cake and drop biscuits, updated, you know, with, with twists from all of these different experiences that you've had. Yeah. What did research for this book look like? It seems like it was a combination. It could have been a combination of like actual research, but also going back in your own archives. That was just it. I knew that I wanted to do recipes that one that are tried and true, that I've done as a caterer that I just want to share. And I want bakers at home to have those, especially if you're new. There are recipes that I took from my travels during the show, Chasing Flavor, that I wanted to share and I did versions of them myself. There are recipes that I did a mash up honoring culture, but like doing like the buttermilk bow buns because if I have a buttermilk biscuit and there's a bow bun, I'm like, why can't I mash that? Right? And honoring the culture where they come from. And then there were some recipes like tongue and cheek. People always talk about me, oh, you put sugar on your grits. Hold up. I did, I did have questions about that, but go ahead. Yeah, that did. I did. But because porridge, morning porridge, has sugar and butter, right? Oh, I eat my oatmeal like that, sure, yeah. Oatmeal, rice, grits. I don't put sugar in grits that are understrap, but when it's a porridge in the morning, it's not an or thing, it is an aunt. And so, sort of tongue in cheek for all the people who are at me online, and felt the places in my face. I said, "I'm gonna do a grits brulee." It's sort of a reckless take on sweet grits. Okay, you have actually, you've made a good, this is the first good case I've heard for sugar in the grits. So, I, I can see to you on that point, Carla. I can see to you on that point. What's a recipe in this new cookbook that you feel is perfect for someone who's maybe looking to switch things up in their life. I do a take on a Turkish pizza, which are made in like football style, and then they're like, oh, the first little pizzas. Yeah, the pides. And I love, I love this recipe because one, there is the whole dough thing. I do not do a lot of doughwork. So, when I started working on this book, I'd always done rolls and stuff for forever. I really wanted to get into bread making because I love bread. And so, the reason I'm saying these are great recipes is because, as I'm teaching myself to do these things, I am giving you the instruction as a newbie. Right. And I want you to have the success in even going from, do you ever, do you ever make bread? No, I've never made bread. I never, I've been, I've been scared to actually make one of my goals for this fall is to make bread. I've never done it. Yes. So, it's so funny that I would choose this. A lot of times when you have a recipe, it'll say put the dough in a bowl, cover it, let rise. And then you look at it until this doubled. Is it doubled? I don't know. So, I started using a straight edge bucket because the bakers and doing all this research and finding what is the easiest thing to do. A lot of bread bakers are doing this sour dough. It's a bucket because when the dough goes in there, you mark it with a piece of tape and you can actually see when it has done. Okay. So, I'm going through hundreds of recipes trying to figure out what is the best way. And I feel like as I taught myself and I had all these learnings, I'm distilling all of this information and giving it back to you. Another thing is using a thermometer. Using a thermometer in pound cakes and breads because you don't want to pull it and it's wrong. Right. On the side. You know, little things like that. I never even thought about that. I have a meat thermometer. I use it for meat fish, things like that. Never, even thought to use it for cake. Never thought. Girl, me too. And I'm the pound cake girl at Christmas. That's my role. Seriously, exactly. And had you ever pulled it too soon and it was unduntenged. And as soon as you put it, it's like, oh, this is jiggly. This is not good. And then it starts, it's like, oh my god, the crunchy top. And then the crunchy top is like going down into the cake. Yeah. I know. I know, I know, girl. So it should be between 205 degrees for pound cake. And this is why you got the book and why you have the one woman show because you have the lessons. You have the things to teach us. Oh my gosh, Miss Carla Hall, I so appreciate this conversation. This has been a joy. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I've loved it for the day. That was chef, author, and actor Carla Hall. Her new cookbook, Carla Bakes, sweet, savory, and from the heart is out now. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Nina Pawtuck. Our supervising producer is Sheriff Vincent. Our executive producer is Barton Gerdwood. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Loose. Talk soon!