Career Criminal Exposes Legal Loopholes, Reveals BEATING A Federal LIFE SENTENCE

I was, I was the person that you could call, call, try to get a gun, let me, I need a pistol from, you know, I, I, I come get it. They're giving my firearm back and they're also handing me some money. What were they doing? Just committing robberies. Then I found myself becoming more involved. You were taking part in these robberies? Yeah. You're getting 20, 30,000. And two minutes, you think you can do it again. And then you think you can do it again. And then you think you can do it again and get away with it. April 7th, 2006, I received 20 life sentences. The day I got sentenced, my sentence was illegal. My lawyer should have knew that. The judge should have knew that she couldn't impose the sentence that she imposed. The U.S. Attorney's Office should have knew that they should have never charged me with the $35.59 statute, the Federal Three Strikes Law because my priors didn't qualify before it. Everybody supposed to know this. This is Carlos McCordry. A former federal inmate sentenced to 18 life sentences for a string of armed robberies he committed in the mid 2000s. Carlos comes from a working class neighborhood in St. Paul, Minnesota and was a gangster and a drug dealer from a young age. He caught multiple shooting cases while he was still a teenager. But his life really fell apart when he and his crew started doing violent stickups of video poker games throughout the Minneapolis St. Paul area. Dozens and dozens of them. When the feds finally got involved, Carlos was the only member of his crew to take his case to trial. But of course, his so-called friends ratted on him. And Carlos was sentenced to 18 life terms. Insanity. It took Carlos years of fighting his sentence from inside of prison before he was able to prove that his sentence was in fact illegal. Finally, in 2022, he was resentanced and set free after almost two decades behind bars. And is today a completely changed man. Carlos's case exposes the corruption of the justice system top to bottom from the prosecution to the judges and even his defense lawyers. Carlos explains why it is vital for criminal defendants to be knowledgeable of the law and to fight for themselves. For anyone out there fighting a case or who has a loved one in prison serving an unjust sentence, pay close attention. Carlos' story might help. Ladies and gentlemen, back from the dead, it's Carlos McCodrie, right here on the Connect with Johnny Mitchell. You grew up in many apples? Same farm. I grew up in same farm. Okay. What was life like? Childhood. Childhood was good. You know, single, you know, my mother was, you know, it was a single household, myself, my older brother. You know, my brother and I, you know, we were thickest thieves, you know, we were together, it was just myself, him and my mother. Both our fathers, you know, they lived down south in many apples. I'm not many apples, but I'm Mississippi. And so frequently, you know, we would see our fathers whether it was through the summertime, if our mother sent us out there. But for the most part, it was just myself, my brother. And my mother, you know, and of course, we know there were struggles, you know, low income housing, you know, but you know, I mean, there's nothing that you can do about it, you know, if your mother is, you know, battling with certain things, you have to just make do with what you got, you know, but for the most part, there was always love. And so that's what carried us throughout the years and throughout my childhood was just the love. Does many apples, St. Paul? I mean, most people couldn't imagine that there's like a ghetto there or a hood. It's just a freezing cold place and the Mighty Ducks movie took place. Like what else do people know about it, right? Does it, how would you compare the hood there to like a place like Chicago or Baltimore? Like do they have what we would consider like a ghetto, like an ethnic ghetto? I mean, you know, the funny thing about it is that's what people think. People think that, you know, Minnesota is up north, so there's nothing really going on there. But it's actually cold in Minnesota, you know, and I'm not talking about the weather. You get them saying to you, and I think that for the most part, we like it that way. You get them saying to you, you can come up there, you can sleep on us if you want to. You get them saying to you, and it's funny because it's like, I don't know if you were familiar, but a few months back, Bobby Smirter, there was anything with Bobby Smirter up there in Minnesota. At the club, Bobby Smirter was at the club, I guess he had a disagreement with some guys, and you know, they kind of roughed him up, jumped on them. You know, and I think that people were actually surprised or shocked at, you know, what actually can happen and transpire, but Minneapolis and St. Paul's a dangerous place, don't think that it's not, you know, but. Well, I think the George Floyd, Bryant's protests kind of shattered that white Minnesota picket fence image that most people have about that place. You know, they're like, wow, there's like some really wild, poor kind of fucked up neighborhoods. Yeah. I mean, it's like I said, we got, we got, we got, we got hoods. You know, they gang banging in Minnesota for sure. Yeah. Well, are you, are you Spanish? No, I'm African-American. Okay. Yeah. I'm African-American. Your name's Carlos. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't know why my mom did that, you know, but they did it, you know, so yeah, my name's, but I'm, but I'm, but I'm black for sure. Okay. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think the only people that, I mean, yeah, I assume most people don't even know this black people in Minneapolis, St. Paul, except for like the Somalis. I mean, they, you know, I don't know what year it was that they actually migrated to Minnesota, though, but, you know, when I was coming up to Somalians, they weren't up there like that, you know, they came like kind of like towards me before I went to, uh, to federal prison. That's when they kind of like started migrating up there. You know, they have their own community and everything. I'm in Minnesota. But they don't, did they gang bang? Of course, yeah, they got gang, I mean, they got some Somalian gangs up here, for sure. I mean, I don't, I've never been exposed to it. I've been around in myself just because I, you know, I choose a different course of direction, you know, for the most part, though, but you they definitely got them up there for sure. Do they have black gang like traditional blood scripts? They got bloods, crypts, GDs, they got vise lords. Right. Uh, they got stones. Uh, they got everything up there. You know, they got everything they got, but you got the highs and many apples, the lows, you know, they got everything tens to 20s. Like, it's a lot of gangs up there. Right. For sure. Okay. So did you join a gang? I mean, I was affiliated. I was affiliated, you know, at one point in time, you know, but I don't, I don't consider myself to be affiliated with anything just because I'm a grown man. I'm 49 years old. You know, I grow a lot, you know, just being incarcerated and being in prison, you know, you have to be able to stand on, you know, stand on your own two feet and walk as a man. You know, I don't need no, no, I don't need no gang to be able to push through to do anything, you know, so, I definitely was definitely affiliation, you know, growing up and coming up. I mean, same part of Minnesota, for sure. Okay. So were you getting into trouble as you grew up a little bit? Like, yeah, you know, I, I would say I jumped off the porch probably at about 13, 14 years old, you know, 13, 14 years old, you know, just kind of just having that, that tough and rough childhood, you know, where, you know, I kind of had to fend for myself as it relates to me just being able to, you know, to get the things that I wanted and needed, you know, being in the neighborhood and just, you know, you might see, you know, your friends, you know, they got the fresh, the fresh shoes, you know, the fresh clothes and stuff like that. And that wasn't necessarily always the case in my situation coming up, you know, at a, at a young age, but I got to a point where, you know, I ultimately said, man, listen, enough is enough, man, it's time to go out here and make something happen. So at about 14, that's when I jumped off the porch selling drugs and shit. Yeah, we was really, we was doing whatever, selling drugs, selling bikes, you know, we was doing whatever we could, you know, to, to get a couple of dollars, you know, but I just, my original goal was doing it was just to get clothes and shoes, you know, to make sure that when I came to school, I had the new Jordans, you know, just like the other kids at the school that had them, you know, so that was important to me. Did you go to college? No, I didn't go to college, no, okay. What was your plan? You know, of course, every, you know, every drug dealer's plan is to make a million dollars. Yeah, you know, you jump off the porch, you get in the streets just to make a million dollars, become a millionaire, but it's like, you know, sometimes even if you see it, you keep going, you know, because selling dope is easy. It's just like having a conversation. It's not really that complicated to do that, you know, so that was that was the goal. Did you make a million dollars? No, I didn't make a million dollars. What were you selling weed? We were selling weed, we were selling cocaine, you know, we were selling what was back then was crack. That's when that crack era kind of really came out, you know, 89, 90s and stuff like that, you know, that's when I came about. Yeah, I bet you can make a bunch of money in Minneapolis selling crack because there's, if you bring words about the town, you got like back then, it definitely was a lot. It was a lot of money back then. That's why you had people like from California coming there. You had people from Detroit coming there. You had a lot of people coming up there because the money was, it was different up there for sure compared to what it is, you know, now. Yeah, it was one of those out of town spots where that's like how the bloods and crypts like started to populate all of these different Midwest towns is that they needed a market for their crack. Absolutely. That's, you know, to this day, that's their legacy. Yeah. for sure. Okay, so you were doing that selling crack and shit. Did you catch a case? Did you ever go to state prison? Yeah, my first, my first case that I caught was, was, was send me to state prison was my shot to people, my shot to people. You know, because I had a, a disagreement or a dispute with one of the guys that was there and the other guy he just happened to just be, you know, a casual war, you know, or he just happened to be there. So he ought to be got shot as well, too though. But, I mean, it was a situation where we had an issue or a dispute over some, over some cocaine. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. How old were you in that happen? I was a 17. I got sort of five hours in a dark, with a trial loss and I received a 36 months. That's it for assault in the second degree. Yep. Because only a, it was only a second degree assault. Yeah. So the guys live, they survived. Yeah, they survived both of them. Okay, so you only got three years, you blew trial and you only got three years. And I ended up doing 24 months off because I, and in the state prison at that time, you only did eight months off a year. That's wild. Yeah. So I did 24 months. Wow. Wow. Wow. Does, do you think Minnesota has like pretty, compared to other states, like, less harsh sentencing, because it's a more liberal state. Or how do you, how do you see that? I mean, you know, it's, it's been so long, you know, for me since I was sentenced, you know, I don't really kind of, I don't know like what, what that entails now, you know, I don't know what that entails, just because I haven't experienced it, you know, I know then it was lenient because I know a couple of guys, you know, growing up, you know, at a young age, 16, 17 years old, they call them murder charges. And at the time, they was only given out 10, 12 years for it. Right. You know, back then. Yeah. But now it's different. You know, you, you commit murder in the state of Minnesota. Now they're going to slam you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're going to slam me. Probably because there were so many murders. Yeah. They did bring the hammer down. Yeah. Yeah. So did you realize that that was for shooting a couple of dudes? Like that was like a really just, that's like a weed sentence. Yeah. I got 36 months or so. I mean, and ultimately that's what, um, that's why that's why I never, I never woke up. You didn't take it seriously. I didn't take it seriously because you know, you're going to stay present. You do time. It's, it's, it's sweet. It's easy. Going there to get you a TV, get you a fan, get you a hot pot, and you kick your feet up, you know, you just, you know, you're going to be right back in 18 months, two years. Yeah. You know, so you don't, you know, it's just hard to take a serious right at all. Uh, okay. So you're back out on the street in no time. Yeah. Uh, did you, you didn't clean yourself up? You went back to it straight back to it. That was a little selling dope. Yeah. That and then just also just being in the streets, you know, you always tell yourself, um, I just got to be a little bit slicker. You know, and so, um, when you go to prison and you don't get caught for drugs, you still think you're a good drug dealer ultimately, you know, and I went to prison for, for shooting two people. So it wasn't for me being caught with no drugs. So of course, I can, I can, I can easily walk back out here and sell some dope, you know, and so that was that's what I did. What is the TMC on your head? Um, you know, it's the marathon content use. Um, I'm someone who is, um, I'm inspired by people young and old. And everything that nipsy hustle, uh, representing when it came to music, everything that he was pushing, um, as it relates to a black ownership, um, it's inspiring, you know, it was always inspiring to me, you know, and so, um, when I walked out of prison, I walked out with that mindset. And that's why I put it there. Okay. Because that's what it stands for. It's, you know, the marathon continues. Did you have some respect in prison? Like when you went in for shooting a couple of guys, like, does that even matter in Minnesota? I mean, it does. I mean, it does, you know, um, you know, you just in your neighborhood in general, of course, people know you, um, and I definitely was somebody who people knew, like a lot of people absolutely know who I am in my neighborhood, you know, from St. Paul to many happens to well, too, um, for good things and bad things. Absolutely, you know, absolutely. So, um, you know, people, of course, respected me, um, for a lot of things just because of how I carried myself, you know, in the streets and the fact that I just, I wasn't going for anything. You know, even as a young age, I wasn't going for nothing, you know, and so, um, because I was the young cat in the neighborhood where I don't care if he was old to do, if he was old to do, and we getting into it, yeah, look, it is what it is, you know, I'm saying, I wasn't back and down from it. Right. You know, showing respect just because they're older. No, absolutely not. Not if it was into it. I wasn't doing that. Now, so what happened when you got out of prison? Did you expand your business? No, it really wasn't about, um, expanding. Like, I didn't have no, I, I didn't have no super, stupid, big operation and nothing like that going on. You know, I was just like anybody else in the neighborhood, you know, we just posted up on the block, you know, we walked down, we up and down, we sometimes crossed the bridge, go over to to the other side, you know, and so, that's just pretty much what it was because back then it was, it was, it was, it was easy to sell dope. You can just get on your bike and just ride around and you have, you have fiends, you know, that was just everywhere, you know, they were, so you got some work. Yeah, yeah, I got it, you know, so we have, we might have a big ziplock bag with nine ounces, just bust all down. You know, I'm saying we got, we got, we got peels, we got, we got eight balls, we got cores, we got everything, you know, I'm saying it. So if we just get on the bike and just ride or sometimes just walk up and down the block on a bicycle, absolutely. Yeah, that's some Minneapolis shit. Yeah, some saying, it was saying Paul. Yeah, it was saying Paul. Yeah, it's environmentally a sound way to sell dope. Yeah, it was different in Minneapolis. Minneapolis, they was, many apps, many apps kind of had a little bit more structure. They were a little bit more territorial. South Minneapolis, as well as many, or North Minneapolis, they're a little bit more territorial. Where it's like, if you or I came over there, they're going to know we're not from over there. You get them saying to you and if we, and we go over there and try to pull something and do something and sell some dope over there, then it's going to, it's going to be a problem for sure in Minneapolis or North, or on the north side or the south side. Yeah, did you have a crew? Not I have a crew. I just had a bunch of homies that I grew up with, friends and, you know, best friends. Yeah, yeah, that's the crew. Yeah, I mean, it was, I mean, yeah, I mean, I mean, I was, you know, I ain't going to say we had a crew, but it was just, it was just my homies. Family. Yeah, yeah, it was just the homies there, for sure. Okay, so you're, you got an incredibly light sentence for something serious, and then as we'll see in a little bit for something less serious, you got the harshest penalty. Right, which is so crazy. Yeah, but you got a felony now. You're on paper. Did you catch another case before your, your federal charge? Yeah, I did. I had got caught, I had got caught with a quarter pound of weed, just on a humbug, you know, just got caught a quarter pound of weed. I was actually driving a, a friend's car whose tabs were expired, you know, got pulled over. They find a quarter pound of weed, go to jail, I was on probation for, I was on probation for the shooting still. And so when I got caught with that, because I had so many criminal history points at this particular time, from just, you know, a bunch of little, small little stuff, it was automatic committed prison. So I couldn't get probation or anything for it was automatic committed prison. So I end up getting 17 months, I'm in prison, where I only served. I want to say I think it was like 12 months, and I was released. And then it just went back to the same thing all over me for a two. And then I would say I probably was out maybe three or four months before I caught my second shooting, my second shooting. What happened with that? Second shooting was a guy, again, there was an issue and a dispute and a disagreement over drugs. And I shot him. You know, I shot him. And so that one was a heavier sentence, that one was a 52 month sentence. Damn, you're really about that thug shit. I mean, I was at that time for sure. Wow. Wow. So the guy survived again. Yeah, he survived. You were hard, but you were a lousy shot. I mean, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't even so much as, I mean, you know, when you're when you're when you're young, it's like everything is really off impulse. You know, I'm saying to you, the second I wasn't trying to, I wasn't trying to kill the second guy shot him in his ass. I was really just more of a statement than anything. Yeah. You know, yeah, I wasn't trying to, I wasn't trying to kill him. Yeah. I wanted to kill him. I couldn't kill him, but I wasn't trying to kill him. I was in the car with him. You know, had you shoot him in the ass when he was in the car? Because he was trying to hop out. Oh, yes. When you got to hop out and run, that's when I shot him. Damn, dude, I got jacked back in the day for a couple pounds of weed. And the kid jumped out of the car. I should have just shot him in his ass. I didn't have a gun though. I never carried a gun. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's, yes. So you, so you got a lot longer sentence now. So you're you're racking up, you're racking up a criminal history, which is relevant when we talk about, you know, the thing that changed your life. Yeah. So you went back to prison. Is there like, are you in like a maximum security prison? Like what is Minnesota state prison? It's like, it's like, it's car, it's like close custody. You're behind the wall, but it's not like no. You kind of can consider it a maximum because we have a super max facility in Minnesota. It's called Oak Park Heights. It's built on the ground. And they do house some federal inmates there, like if there's guys in the federal system, they can't be in that federal circuit. They'll hide them in Oak Park Heights. - On the ground? - Yes, on the ground. Supermax facility. - It's crazy. - Is that because it's so cold, that's why they build it underground? - I don't know why they did that, but that's a supermax facility, Oak Park Heights. - Okay, so you didn't go there? - No, I didn't go there, I wasn't still water. - Okay. - Still water in the same cloud, which is like, they're like, you can kinda consider them max, but it's close custody of. - And do you have enemies in there for shooting people or do you have to run shit? Are you hustling in there? - Nah, no, state was different. You know, state was like glad in your school. Of course, we gonna go in there, you're gonna fight. You're gonna see probably dudes that you may have had issues with, but for the most part, like I said, he like me and the people that I grew up with when we respected, you know, and we were fear, like we never really had no issues. Like I ain't never had no issues in prison. - Right. - Yeah, no state prison, not at all. - What are the demographics in a Minnesota state prison? - You had blacks, you had whites, you had Native Americans. - Sure. - And it's crazy because actually when I was doing time in the state, the Native Americans were the ones who was really going to hardest. They was going, they were going to hardest, like they were big on respect, they was big on everything. You know, and so when they came to whites or when they came to blacks, you know, we really, like we really just, it was us just really passing time and passing through there and getting up out there. - But you had, but you had situations where you missed your shit. - Right, for sure. - Right, so how long did you do on that second shooting? - 52 months of what they gave me, I did 37 months. - Okay, so three years, did, I mean, are you, by the way, did your boy that you shot, did he snitch on you? - Yeah, yeah, he caught up. Everybody's telling, it's like, people are always like, nowadays, everybody tells. I think everybody's been telling always, you know what I mean? - Some people, yeah. - Okay, so, and did you do that stretch? You do that time like standing on your head? - Yeah, I mean, I did, it was, that was a little tougher, tougher, I would say, just because the first bit I had a really good support system, just, you know, with my kid's mother, but she had told me that after the first time, she said, "Listen, you go back, I'm not gonna be there." And so, when I went back at the time too, I had actually, I had spent so much money, trying to fight the case that when I walked in there, I was broke, you know what I'm saying? And so, but of course, you know, I had a few people that looked out for me, you know, and I was able to get the things I needed when I originally went in, but that one was a little tougher, just because there wasn't the same support system, for sure. - That's before, yeah, for sure, yeah. - Yeah, and, but it sounds like you got the balls to like go to court, like to take the shit to trial. - Now, I copped out on the second one, the second one, yeah, I copped out. Second, I didn't blow a trial on the second one. - Right, yeah, first one I did, though. - Okay, so what was your mindset coming home from that second bid, that second long bid for the shooting? - It was pretty much the same mindset. It wasn't anything different. I just kind of like switched a little things up, just as it relates to how I hustled. You know what I'm saying? It was no longer on the block, it was off the phone now. You give them saying to you, 'cause I said to you, back in the days, you could walk up the street, you could ride the bike, you could do whatever, but now everything's off the phone. So just pretty much during that, and then trying not to be as seen, you know, as much. - Right, you know, what's the, what's the mission? - What year was that? - I got out 2001. - Okay. - That's when I got out. - And then you caught your federal case in 2004? - Yep, 2004. - Okay, so what happened in those years? - Just, just pretty much just getting back and just doing the same thing. Of course, I was just a little bit older. I wasn't, you know, I was still in my, like early 20s, mid 20s, as days I was at, though. So just pretty much just getting back to it, doing the exact same thing. The mindset was still the same, you know, chase a buck. You know, it wasn't anything different, you know, but just trying to be a little bit more smarter, and strategic, that was just it. - You're still trying to become a millionaire. That's the goal. - Of course, you're still chasing it. You're still chasing it during, you know, that illusion of it, sure. - How did you stay out of beefs? Like, what were you catching these shootings? What was the, what were the beefs over? People who owed you money or? - That or, you know, people just trying to, you know, pretty much, you know, not everybody, not everybody is gonna respect certain things if that makes sense. You know, not everybody's gonna respect certain things. And so I think that when you, you don't respect certain things, there's a consequence for it. You get what I'm saying to you? - I don't, huh? - I don't, I don't understand what you're saying. - No, I'm saying-- - Respect over what? - I'm saying like if, if you and I, if you and I have an agreement on something, right? And you don't respect what the agreement is, then we're gonna have an issue. You and I, I'm gonna have an issue with that. You know what I'm saying to you? So whatever agreement you and I come to, I'm actually gonna respect that. And so once you don't respect it, then okay. All right, well, just make sure you can handle what comes with that, you know? - Were these your workers? Were these guys? - No, it might have been, you know, if I give you something and I said, okay, that's what I want back for it. - Right. - And you don't, and you don't come back with what you supposed to come back with. Then we, you know. - So money. - Yeah. - As I said, absolutely. - Okay. What else could it be over, right? That's all there is in the street. - Yeah. - So the case that you ended up catching was not over drugs. - No. - You actually never caught a drug case. - Never caught a drug case. - Except for you, the wheelie. - Yeah, the little bullsh*t wheelie or whatever. - Which you probably would have got probation for if you didn't, weren't already on probation. - Right. - Yeah. - So, yeah, I mean, lead us up to that. You know, what had you done these kind of, these kind of licks before? - No, see what it was. - See what it was, was like, I was, I was, I was the person that you could call, you know, 'cause like I said, I was, I was somebody who at that time like, if you was my home or whatever and you say, man, look, I get gun, let me, I need a pistol from you. You know, I couldn't get it. You know, and so that's how everything first started, you know, I might get a phone call, "Hey, man, you know, let me borrow a pistol real quick." I couldn't get it, you know. And so I don't know what's going on. I don't know which, I don't know what you got going on there first originally. And so, as my co-definance are committing the crimes, you know, they're coming back, they're giving my firearm back and they're also having to be some money. I'm not asking no questions, oh, 'cause I'm a street dude, I'm not gonna ask you no question, I'm not where you got it from. I'm naive to what you actually, what you actually really got going on. So it happened a few times and then after it happened a few times, my brother caused me and he's like, "Hey, man, turn on the news at 6 o'clock news." And so I'm like, okay, I turn on the 6 o'clock news, I see some news on the news, I know who they are. You know, and I'm like, the fuck, you know, like this is what's going on. So my little buddy, I call him, like where you at? He like, you know, I'm in a neighborhood, I'm gonna pull up on you, man. I pull up on him. And I'm like, yo, that's what you been doing this whole time? Like, you're tripping, like, you know what I'm saying, like, what are they doing? I'm like, man, like, ain't my firearm, you know? 'Cause now you make this in the news, like, you going to jail? - Like, hitting like quarter stores? - No, they were like bars. They had like pool taps, right? And so, you know, the pool taps had tens and tens of thousands of dollars. And so, it was like more like a smashing grab for them, in and out, you know, two minutes tops, maybe. I don't know, you know? - Right. - And so that's ultimately what was going on, you know? You just can't get your shit. - Yeah. - That's cowboy shit. - I mean, that's what they thought, did the fans come? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Okay, so you pulled up on your homie and you were like, give me my guns back. I don't want to be affiliated with this. - Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, but, but me being, you know, who I am, I didn't let it stop right there, which I should have. I didn't let it stop right there. I allowed it to go on, you know, even after that, when I shouldn't have. And so now, you know, even when I didn't know, now I know so that makes me a co-conspirator. - Yeah. - You know what I'm saying too? But again, I'm so naive because I'm saying to myself, well, I'm not, I'm not really harming anybody or doing nothing, right? But then, but then I get to a place in a space where, I'm like, oh, this is what y'all got going on? This is how much you're getting? You get them saying to you? - How much money could they get? - I mean, it was like, it might be 30, 40, you know, something like that at a time. - I hope I have a one pool hall. - Yeah, absolutely. It was like a pool task. And it's like, it's like a gambling, like, it's like a gambling, like a little card or a ticket. Like, you can go on there. because you could pull them off and you might have a thousand bucks on a $1500 winner or something like that on it. And so people pay them. You got some of them that cost a dollar, some that cost five dollars. You know, and so what I have, but that's a separate entity from whatever the establishment is. - Right, right. - Like I'm saying to you, where the bar might sell liquor or something like that, this is something completely over here and it's just separate. So it's almost like the keynote machines that people go into. They have this in Oregon where it's a bar, but in the corner, the vendor supplies the keynote machine and you'd be over there just pressing buttons like you're in a casino. - Absolutely, yeah. - Okay, but they were just robbing the bars. - Right, yep. - That's like the paying tabs. - Yeah, okay, right. And they could get in the bar and they carried that much cash. - Yeah, someone left for sure. - Okay, so they're making real money. - They were. - And they're drawn down. They're not, this is not like a smashing grab. - They're armed robbery. - They were armed robbery. - Okay. - They were definitely armed robbers for sure. - Yeah. - Yeah, how many, how many robberies like this did they commit, you know? - In total, I wanna say it was, I know when my first co-definite got arrested, he had 32 counts on them. I wanna say that he had committed maybe 30, if I'm not mistaken. I know the indictment that I was indicted under, there was 11 that I was charged with. - And they're hitting these spots all over the St. Paul Minneapolis area. - St. Paul Minneapolis area and other little suburban areas. Like we're, they were in like Hinnippin County or Ramsey County. They were considered suburb area. - Okay, so why are you the one supplying the guns? - Well, can you find their own guns? - They didn't have the access to them at that. I mean, they could've probably, but they knew I had them. But again, like I said to you, once I got wind of what was actually going on, like I said, and me not stopping it, then I found myself becoming more involved and I should have. You get them saying to you, and that's ultimately how I got jammed up in it because, like I said to you, I'm a conspirator, I'm a co-conspirator now, you know? - Well, what was your, for some like supplying guns, what was your taste? What would they throw you? - I mean, I just started off just getting like a couple thousand. - Yeah. - You know, I just started off just getting a couple thousand. - Yeah. - But then as I can say, as I got more involved and then my break was two ways, three ways. - And then you get involved. - I'm saying just for us like partaking, you know, just partaking and everything, like it just was, it became, you know, okay, well I need, I need my cut. - Yeah. - You know, yeah, so I can say if it was two people, I'd rip or whatever, I'd break me down. - That's wild. - You were taking part in these robberies. - Yeah, yeah, that's, was it exciting? - I mean, the money was good, you know, so of course, at that particular time, it was exciting. - Did, were there cameras now? Are there starting to be more security cameras? - I mean, there definitely was then, you know, there definitely was then, but everything was always, you know, there was always, there was always, they always had masks and stuff on them. - Yeah, so you guys ran in with masks and, and nobody's putting up any kind of, - No, nobody's putting up. - It's not like the South where the bartender might have a gun underneath the joint. - Oh, nobody's putting up no resistance. - Yeah. - Now they wasn't doing that at that time, no. - Okay, so take us through one of these, take us through one of these licks, right? Like how long do you spend casing it out? How do you know when there's gonna be money in there? - I mean, you don't really know that, you know, you don't really know that, and you know, it was really more or less about, at that time, finding ones that were like, like on backstreet, you know, you find someone on the backstreet, it's not no pedestrian, there's nobody walking around, or nothing like that, and you want to kind of, you know, you kind of just get a feel of the area. You get them saying to you if that makes sense, you get a feel of the area, and you're gonna know if it's crowded, or if it's not crowded, you know, that's just how they originally figured it out, figured it out, you know, and so once they knew that it wasn't something that was crowded, it was easy to just go in there, and it was usually, you would want to wait kind of like later, kind of like towards close, you know, or whatever, so it would be less people as possible. - And the bartenders would be the one holding the pool tabs? - No, it would be the people who ran it. - So it was always separate. - I see, so people are actually, and they're running it along with the machines, people who are taking bets. It's almost like sports betting, essentially. - Yeah, that's what it is, right, kind of. - It's not like Kino, or it's not like the lottery. - It's kind of like the lottery, because like I said, you don't just have a ticket where you're scratching something off, you get like a little ticket and you're pilling something off. - Okay. - You get them saying to you, and if you pill it off and you have a winner, then the person that's running it catches you out. I've never heard of this. I've never heard of a state doing this. This might be unique to Minnesota. I mean, maybe they do it some other states, but I don't know. This is really, that's weird. It's almost like Samoffia gambling, but it's the state doing it. - The thing of it is, is that the statue that we were actually entitled on is a racketeering statue. The Hobbes act as a racketeering statue. - Yeah, so yeah, we're gonna get into that. Like explain how robbing these local bars and gambling joints became federal. This is really, this is something. So you took place in a, you're indicted under 11 robberies, is what they say that you part suck in. Over what period of time? - A two year period, 2002 to 2004. A two year period is how long they say the conspiracy lasted. - Oh, yeah. - Wow, so they were getting, you guys were getting away with it. - Yeah, for years. - Were you still selling drugs, or did you just make this your main thing? - No, of course. - Okay. - That's what the money was for. It was to get more. That wasn't the focal point of the goal for myself. I don't know what their focal point of what their goal was, but for myself, it was, you know, to get money to get more drugs. - Yeah, to get a bigger, a bigger real. - A bigger package for sure. - And then you were selling Coke? - Yeah. - Okay, did you grow your business thanks to this new income? - I mean, yeah, but you know, when you. The one thing that I didn't respect was, I didn't respect the money, I didn't value the money and respect it the way that I should have. You know, so what happens is if you make $30,000, $50,000, you're gonna blow it because you're not respecting it. Even then, if you're doing something stupid like this, you know, and it's happening when you're getting $20,000, $30,000, and two minutes, you know, you think you can do it again, and then you think you can do it again, and then you think you can do it again and get away with it. You know, and so you don't never, you don't never consider it, tell yourself you're gonna get caught for it. So, I didn't respect the money at all, you know. So, even if I made, you know, $50,000, $60,000, or whatever, I'm blowing, I'm blowing 40 of it, you know, or 50 of it in probably three weeks. - Yeah. - So, now you gotta go back to your table and do it all over again. - Do another robbery. - Yeah, you gotta do whatever you gotta do. - Damn. - Yeah. - Yeah, this is some real, some gangster shit, man. I've heard a lot of, I was down with a lot of guys who got slammed with a lot of time for this kind of like ongoing, 'cause you guys aren't doing this like once or twice 'cause you're down on your habit, you're a dope fiend, and you're rob a bar or you, this is a business, this is a racket. This is an organized crime. - That's what they considered it to be, but you know, we was just some dudes in a neighborhood who was just trying to chase a buck. - Organize yourselves. - That's how we committed a multiple ongoing crimes. And I'm not even like, and I hate the justice system, but I'm just from an outsider civilian perspective now, this is organized crime. - That's what I could look at it for sure. Tell us about how they got on to you and how you eventually arrested. - Well, they weren't on to anybody. What happened was one of my co-defendants had got caught, we got caught Red Hat, where he had went committed one robbery, and then I guess the robbery he committed, I guess it was enough money for him. So he drove from that location and went to another location, not too far from where the crime was committed at, and after he committed that robbery, he got arrested. He got caught, right, he got caught. And so when he got brought in, that's when he start cooperating and he start telling on the guy that he originally committed the robbery, so he didn't say anything about me. It took a while for my name to come up. And my name came up once they got to asking where the weapons came from. Then that's where my name comes up. And so once my name comes up, then that's when they kind of, I think the case, 'cause I was the last one to come in, I think that's when the case kind of got a little bit bigger, I guess, I don't know if you wanna say. - Well, it's still on the state level at this point, right? - No, it was federal then. The first, when the first guy got arrested, we were on the state level. Like I said, he was for the two robberies, and he's down there cooperating against the other co-defendants. - Telling about these other robberies, right? - And so, because he got caught with a firearm, They had indicted them for being a felony possession of firearm. That's how they brought the case to federal court originally. And as he's cooperating and now they're bringing the other co-definition now, of course, it's the federal case. Do you think if he had just kept his mouth shut? He just said, "Yeah, look, I did the two robberies and I got a gun." You know, he would have done some time, you know, from when I'd done 10 years or something. Do you think they would have been able to make a bigger case? No, I mean, if he doesn't say anything and nobody else commits any crimes, we may have not got caught for it. You know, you know what I'm saying? Because there was no, they didn't know who they didn't know, they didn't know who committed any, like they didn't know and they didn't know who committed any of these crimes until he came in and until he started cooperating. And so that guy, what was his eventual sentence? He ended up when he first got indicted, he had a 32-pound indictment. So 32 counts, how, if they only have you on two robberies, red-handed, how do they indict you on 32 times? Because he confessed. He confessed. Oh, he still motherfuckers. He confessed because once he told on the other co-definitions, not like I said, they put the whole entire case together and realized that he was responsible for partaking and X amount of robberies. Just came in and the paper, they said he was facing 382 years, but because of his cooperation, he only got six and a half years. But I wonder if he hadn't told on himself, this is what I'm trying to get to, like do you think if he had just kept his mouth shut, just two robberies and the gun, the sentence probably would have been less, it probably would have been about six and a half years, right? If it would have stayed on the state level probably. Right. Or maybe a little more. Yeah, probably. But like you go and tell and then tell on yourself, it's actually worse. Sometimes the guy who tattletails, it's actually worse for him in the sentencing than it would be if he just took whatever bullshit he got caught for. God damn, that's fucking crazy. Six, one guy, just folded. How close was he to you? How well did you know these guys? I mean, I grew up with him and he actually, he was the one who was the closest to me because we hung out every day. We hung out every day and it's crazy because it's like I met him in the county jail when I was going to do my second state, my second state a bit. I met him in the county jail and it's crazy because I should have knew then that he was no good because he had a, he had a like a $300 bond and he couldn't bond out, you know, like I was, it was, I wouldn't say, it was like either $300 or a $600 bond and wouldn't nobody come get it. You get him saying, you know, 10% of 600 bucks. You get him saying, so I should have knew then that he was no good. If you can't get out of jail on a $300 or a $600 bond, you're no good. No. Sandy, that means that you don't, you don't, you don't, you don't done some crazy stuff. You don't done some crazy stuff. You know what I'm saying to you and so but, but I had took a likeness to him, you know, and it's crazy because it's like after taking a likeness to him, I actually bonded him out while in there, while we were together, I'm like, you know, because I'm like, he's young. Yeah. I'm like, man, you know what? I'm going to get you out, you know, so I'm going to bond him out, you know. So you really knew these guys well? I grew up in my neighborhood, I grew up in my neighborhood, for sure. Okay. So how long after this guy got arrested and started talking, did everybody start to go down? And then when did you, when were you finally brought in, do you remember the date of the year? Yeah. I got, I got, I got brought in June 4th, 2024. And I want to say maybe about two or three months or maybe three or four months prior to me, being taken in custody, that's when my other co-defendants were taken in custody. I'm not sure how long it was after he got arrested, that the other ones came in. I just know that it was probably two or three months after they rounded up the other co-defendants. I can't. I was the last one to come in. Were you arrested by the FBI? I was arrested by a sergeant, a sergeant by the same, he was a sergeant, the same Paul Police Department. He knew, he knew, he knew, he knew who I was and he knew, because he was working, I think, with the ATF at the time too. And so, once the work came out, he knew like we're out with the neighborhood I was at, you know, I frequently hung out at it or whatever and so he came looking for me. But it was a federal warrant. It was a federal warrant. Yeah, for sure. Actually, it was a warrant for a complaint. I wasn't indicted yet, but it was a complaint. All right. Yeah. Got it. So, and you're still, you've got this huge rap sheet now. What happens to everybody else? Like as the court proceedings, because now you're in this like Rico conspiracy, it's the Hob's Act is what exactly, explain for people. The Hob's Act is, it's a racketeering, it's a racketeering statute which deals with robbery and extortion. And it was an act that was an act in 1946. And the act was originally the original goal of the Hob's Act was to combat robbery and extortion, you know, basically from like the mobsters, you know, if you remember back in the days, you know, they were high, they were hijacking, you know, trucks, trucks and stuff like that. That's what the Hob's Act was originally for. Because now you're affecting interstate commerce and the floor goes interstate commerce. We have a truck this in route from New Jersey to New York and you guys stop it and you guys hijack it, well, you affect interstate commerce because you just took the whole truck and that's what the whole goal of the Hob's Act was originally for. And Senator Hob's, like if you were the dig deeper into the history of the Hob's Act, Senator Hob's specifically stated that the act was not enacted to combat mom and pop robberies. He said, you know, you go and send you, but a lot of people don't, they don't know that because the federal government, their loophole is what affected interstate commerce. And Nick, I said, if you go and say, if you go in there, rob a 7-Eleven right now, because the sneaker that they have in there to their selling is not manufactured in Austin, Texas. Therefore you affect the interstate commerce because you just depleted the funds of 7-Eleven that allows them to be able to order sneakers or whatever other supplies that they have in 7-Eleven. That's how they ultimately say that they have jurisdictions. Crazy. So how did they, how did they say or try to say that what you guys were doing, sticking up, gambling and pool parlors? How was that affecting interstate commerce? Because the liquor that the establishment so was not liquor, it was manufactured in the state of Minnesota. That's how they say you affect your interstate commerce because again, like I said to you, if you go in there, you rob an establishment of 30,000 or 40,000, not or say you depleted the funds of being able to order liquor that was manufactured in Detroit, Michigan, you get them saying to you, and that's how they justify it. But under those guidelines, you can make almost anything. We live in a connected world. Almost nothing we consume is manufactured in our state. Exactly. Everything comes from China via the Port of Los Angeles where it comes in. I mean, we live in a global economy, so anything could be affecting interstate commerce. Yeah. Yeah, that's a real problem. Yeah. I mean, and it is, you know, but when you have, you know, these judges, as well as these U.S. attorneys who have these agendas, it's kind of, it's going to always be hard to combat that. You get them saying to you, and it's crazy because it's like, you see people in state prison for robbing, like I said, you're 7 and 11 or for robbing anything, and it'll just be a state case. Yeah. You know, they pick and they choose cases that they want to bind over to federal court. And so even when we got indicted, like I said, it was six of us total. We were all African-Americans. And so, you know, you had the NAACP, the St. Paul Branch, went down to the U.S. attorney's office trying to get answers because they're action and like, why are you guys inditing these young, you know, African-Americans for committing these crimes when they're just their local robberies? You get them saying to you, "I think the stable of it." Right. And that was, and that was, that's what was one of the biggest things that I couldn't really wrap my head around, and that's why I ultimately blew trial. Was because I'm like, you know, because I had my lawyers coming in, telling me like, this is not in a federal case. So once you tell me that, you know, and I got a little bit of money that I can use with a lawyer to fight with, or I'm gone, you know what I'm saying to you? No, I don't know how to come in and accept responsibility. I don't know how to say, okay, well, you know what? Yeah, I partake in, you know, this conspiracy, you know, and whatever, you know, I'm subjected to, go ahead and receive the time. It's hard for me to do that when I'm having my lawyer tell me, "Hey, this is not in a federal case." You know, then that you have other people in the evening. and just a little research that I was doing, I'm setting myself like, nah, they're saying no federal case. And that's what I fought against. - So your lawyers were telling you this was a case you could be? - No, they were telling me it wasn't a federal case. And so when you tell me that, and I'm like, and there's like, well, you know, this didn't really affect interstate commerce, you know, this is what I'm thinking, we're gonna be able to go in here and attack and argue. - What were they trying to do? They were trying to get it dismissed. They originally were trying to get the court to dismiss it based on a lack of a subject matter jurisdiction, but of course they got denied, you know. - All right, okay, so after these motions, keep getting denied, you're sitting in jail. - Yeah. - Do they then, do the attorneys then say, okay, well, it looks like you're either gonna have to take a plea. What are they offering you as a plea deal? - Well, the first plea that they offer me, which they offered everybody, and everybody, the crazy thing about it is everybody involved in the case either played to 22 years or 21 years, even the original co-defin and who cooperated. Everybody played to that, either 22 or 21 years, but after their cooperation, of course they got, you know, their senses reduced. - So everybody cooperated? - Everybody cooperated, except me. - Against two. - Me. - So did you, they obviously tried to get you to cooperate? - Yeah. - What if it's just like everybody telling on each other? - Right. - I see, I see. And so what did they ultimately get? - Well, the first plea deal they came to me was 22 years. Of course, I rejected it. But then there, the second one, which was like four days before trial, they offered me 15 years. And I was gonna take the 15 years, but when my lawyer told me that the 15 years came with cooperation, I'm like, I'm not doing that. You know, I've just, I've never been a person who, I'm just not built like that. You know, I don't, I've never been a person who, if you catch me doing something, then turn around and say, okay, well, you know what? Hey, I bought drugs from Johnny, or I bought drugs from so-and-so, or I did this with so-and-so. I've just never been built like that. You know, if I, if you catch me, I'm gonna lay down, I'm gonna do my time. But you have a lot of people who don't, they don't live by that, you know? And it's crazy because people don't understand that, snitching has become a part of the game now. You know, it's unfortunate, but that's the reality that we live in. The way that this new generation has shaped everything. You know, people don't live by those same colds and principles and morals that they did when I was coming to them. You get them saying to you, that's why you see the things that you see in the news right now. You know, you see people, you know, even big people, big time people just, let's just look at the situation with push iced in Gucci man right now. What's going on with that situation? You know, look at the situation where people try to say, you know, big, meach third party cooperated. You get them saying to you, snitching has become a part of the game. Not saying that I believe, I don't know any of these people, but not to say that this is, you know, that they did those things, but just saying like, snitching has become a part of the game. I, it's not something I believe in. I still believe in, you know, you, you do something, you call it man, lay down under your time. - Okay, but at this point, and I respect that definitely, at this point though, four days before trial, have all of your codies already snitched on you? - Yeah. - All the men already cooperated. - And what is that being just proffering, just telling everything? - Proffering telling everything, some stuff was true, some stuff, you know, some stuff relies as well too, just to make sure that they got the time cut you know, that they were hoping to get. - And they all end up taking, had they taken the 15 year plea deals at this point? - They took 20, 21, 21 years. - That was their plea? - That was their plea deal. - Even for cooperating. - Yeah, that was their plea deal. - Oh, that does suck. So you actually had an opportunity to get less time for cooperating against people that had already cooperated against you. Wow, I respect that. I mean, that's a principled move because nine out of 10 people would be like, oh, well, why not? - Right. - The government's literally just telling you, we don't want to go to trial, man. Games over. All these dudes told on you, so just confess. What they're trying to get you to do is confess because they know everything. There's no, you know, it's not like anybody else is taking it to the box. - And I have people who were frustrated with me because I wouldn't take the deal. But like I said, in the days, it wasn't about me pleasing it was just about what I stood on and just not believing in that. - Right, yeah. And plus, you gotta go to federal prison being a rat having bad paperwork, right? And this is, you've got 11 counts of robbery? - I know, all together, it was 21. I was filed guilty on a 21-count indictment. - Okay, yeah, it's charged. - Which was conspiracy for count one, 80 and a betting count was two through 10 and then counts 11 through 19, 80 and a betting in 924 C, 924 C charge and then two counts of felon and possession of a fire. - Okay, and did your lawyer at this point advise you to take the deal? - Of course, my lawyer, she tried to, one of my lawyers tried to convince me to take the deal for sure. - Mm-hmm, yeah. - 15 years. She was, she was actually, she and I got to it. She and I had a real argument, a real bad argument because I wouldn't take it. - What was the nature of the cooperating? Like, what do they want you to do? Just sit down and make a statement? - Well, see, the crazy thing about it is that, during the course of me being in the county jail, they had sent 55 photos to every single co-defendant that were numbered, right? And there was a separate paper, and they wanted you to write your name down to every number of the people that you knew. And there were dudes that were in my neighborhood that I grew up with and it's like, here it is, we have our own case. These dudes don't even know they're under these people radar because there's 55 photos of people that I absolutely know. You get them saying to you, but I'm not going to be writing my name on the paper, identifying nobody and coming in and profiting, giving you any information about dudes in my neighborhood. - Also, they want more than just, you guys talk, tell on yourselves. - Absolutely, whatever, whatever, whatever you can come in and offer up, they wanted it, but that was a percent they wanted. So that's like, you know, a lot of people, I did share that with, like even one of my closest buddies, it was a picture of him, you know? And so after I had got convicted, I sent them to the picture like, hey, look, this is what, like in the funny thing about it is, when I sent him that picture, he changed his life. Like when I tell you my pump, and when I tell you he's doing so good right now, Mary kids, he changed his life because it was a wake up call for. - Right, like you're on their radar. - Yeah, you fall back. - Absolutely, yeah, get out the way. - Wow. - Yeah, get out the way for sure. - Good for you, man. I bet he appreciates that. - Oh, for sure. - Rately. - Yeah, for sure. - I would have advised you as a lawyer to tell on yourself and your buddies, this is just as a lawyer. I'm just thinking strategy, right? I'm trying to get you home. I would have said, yeah, lie, say you don't know shit about anything else. And just, I talked, we had a big marijuana group that we filmed with a couple of years ago, and they were these red necks out of South Florida. And they had imported like, dude, like hundreds of tons of Colombian weed back like in the '70s and '80s and shit like that. And when they got the indictment, they all made an agreement. They all told on each other. Like, but knowingly, they all agreed like we're gonna cooperate against each other. And you know, they all came home. - Yeah. - That's the part of the game that's like the strategy that big-time criminals use. But respect, respect for just standing on your business. I understand both sides. So how long did trial last? And did your codies take the stand? - Yeah, they took the stand. My trial, it lasted, I would say, maybe a little over, but maybe a week, I don't need to liberate it for four days. They delivered it for four days. So I would say maybe a week and a half, that's how long it lasted, maybe. - Was that hard watching your friends take a stand in front of a federal jury and just tell on you that must have been? - It was, you know, there definitely was some anger there. Especially when it's like, you know, these are dudes that you looked out for and protected, you know, 'cause they were soft. And so, you know, it was dudes that I stood up for on many occasions, you know, dudes that I built out of jail and many occasions, you know, you go to jail, you know, most people didn't go to jail the first people they caused, they couldn't call their lady, they come get me, they weren't doing, they was calling me. And I would go get 'em, you know, 'cause if I were, if you and I were cool and we dealt with each other, and you call my phone, you need to, you know, get built out of jail and come in to get you. So I was deaf. It was anger and I was hurt, you know. But the one thing I realized, you know, today is that I put myself in that situation. I put myself in that situation to allow anybody to stand before myself and 12 jurors and two lawyers and prosecute and adjust to be able to point the finger and tell me about anything, you know. So I don't blame this my fault 'cause I put myself in that situation. - What was the mistake, the initial mistake? Was it given to do those guns? - No, the initial mistake was just me not realizing and understanding that it's another way, you know. It's a different way. I think that when you grow up, you know, in a neighborhood where you see all these different things that are happening and transpiring when it comes to just dealing with the streets, just when, you know, selling drugs and things of that nature. Like I said, it's easy to do. It's not complicated or hard to do. It's just as easy as me, you have an conversation. You can easily just get involved. You need to be good or bad at it, but for the most part, you also see those same people who you grew up with and your community doing something different and to this day are successful for it. So for me, the mistake was just not realizing that it was a different way. That was the mistake. - The jury deliberated for four days. - Yeah, they deliberated. - And when in Monday came back Friday. - What was your defense? What was the nature of your defense? What were your lawyers trying to do? - The nature of the defense was that I was never caught. Nobody identified me, you know? No, no, no eyewitness ever identified me. I'd never been caught with a firearm. And so it was basically my word against theirs. You know, and I think that even just remembering trial, I can remember a couple of the jurors shaking their heads like when my co-definance were cooperating and telling because they were, like I said, they was true to some of the things that they said for sure, but then it was also a bunch of lies. And so I think that there were parts and moments where jurors kind of like knew that. So for them to sit there and deliberate for four days, I kind of felt like if I would have testified that I may have beat them, you know? - So it's pretty rare that a defendant in a criminal trial takes to stand, but was that a thought? Did you bring that up to your attorneys? - No, I mean, I didn't want to take you stand because I knew my past and my priors would come up though, but that was a thought after I got convicted. After sitting back and thinking about I'm sending myself like, man, I should have probably gone to stand because in a situation like that, if everybody is saying that this is what you're doing and there's no eyewitnesses to be able to come in and cooperate that you're actually doing, this is just your word against theirs. I think that any rational person is going to be hard for them to believe, well, if this person's not going to stand up and defend himself, then it must be true. - That is really interesting. - You know, I hope some lawyers or some criminals that are facing trial hear that. How many people are cooperating against you? - It was identifying you on the stand. - Four, a floor code difference cooperating. - Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's one of those things where it's like, it's with the feds, you know, people have been convicted for less. - Oh, for sure. - And did you understand how the win rate of federal prosecutors? - No, you know. - 98% conviction rate. - Well, I mean, 98% conviction rate is really based on plea agreements. That's what it is. When people think that, you know, when you're talking about 98%, you're talking about people blowing trial. People don't usually blow trial in the feds. They usually cop out and they either cooperate or they just come in and you just, you know, take the plea agreement that's offered to them without cooperation. You get them saying to you, they have a high conviction rate because people are cooperating with the federal government. I don't know anyone, except maybe two people. And I've been around just, you know, being in the federal system. I've been around a lot of people that had life. I probably can only, name two or three that are actually still in there, you know. The one thing that I realize about the feds is that they make so many different mistakes in a violates your rights in so many different ways. And I'm not saying this to encourage people to commit crime in the feds and go to trial. I'm not saying that, but for the most part, everyone that I did time with, their blue trial are actually home today because some way or another, their rights were violated. So that is so fascinating. And what does that tell us? What does that tell us about the feds? It's like, just get this guy a life sentence and then with whatever the fuck, how much fuckery and however many rule breaking we wanna do. If he figures it out, then he'll, then we'll cut him loose. So who is culpable? Is it the judge? Is it the prosecutor? Like who are the ones in the system making those mistakes? Honestly, at the sentencing and in the trial? Well, first and foremost, I think that everyone's playing ball in my opinion, right? From your lawyer to the US attorney, as well as to the judge. We don't know what happens behind closed doors. All we know is that this, you know, that we have, you know, this situation in that, you know, we're standing before court, you know, either defending or accepting responsibility for actions. I can't really speak on anybody else's situation other than myself, but again, like I said to you, for the most part, the people that I did time with, were on drugs, were drug conspiracy cases, and like I said, you lost change and, you know, lo and behold, they served 20 years, and then all of a sudden, you know, you discover realized, hey, well, this person should have never, you know, been sentenced to this, you know, to this amount of time because his sentence is illegal. But my question is, why is this who's responsible for overlooking that at the actual sentencing? I think everybody, you know, because like I said, like you, when you come into a situation from your lawyer to the US attorney to the judge, everybody has a responsibility to protect your constitutional rights. I don't care whether I'm guilty or I'm innocent. You know what I'm saying, especially to judge, because this is what the judge takes the oath to, you take the oath to uphold the United States Constitution. You know what I'm saying to you, you're there as a referee. Okay, this side is going to present an argument, this side is going to present an argument. You get what I'm saying to you, and then you have to be the deciding factor as to whether or not A is right or B is right. You know what I'm saying to you, but the most important thing is for you to be able to protect the rights of anyone walking before your court. You know, and so I believe that everybody's responsible because my lawyer has a responsibility to protect my constitutional rights under the Sixth Amendment. That's what the Sixth Amendment says, that you have a right to affect if it's a council. Absolutely. You get what I'm saying to you, and so just like my situation, right, the day I got sentenced, my sentence was illegal. Exactly. Exactly. She should have knew that. The US attorney's office should have knew that they should have never charged me with the 3559 statute of federal three strikes law because my priors didn't qualify before. Everybody's supposed to know this. Right. I can't answer you, but yet because like I said you again, there's an agenda here, it always gets overlooked, you know. And it's crazy because one of the US attorneys that prosecuted me after I got sentenced had a photo of me framed in his office. And I learned that because there was another lawyer who I retained who had to go to his office to talk to him and he's seen it in there. You know, and he also used that as one of his points when he indicted another group that came after us, which were the Latin Kings. And he went to him and he told me, say, listen, do you guys know who Carlos McAdore is? Yeah, well, I did that to him. You get him saying to you. And so again, when you have people who have these agendas, we're all in trouble. So it was like he had like a hunting trophy on his wall. It was a trophy for your face. It was a trophy for sure. Okay, so it wasn't like during your sentence that a Supreme Court made a decision on a case and then you guys, it changed the circumstances of your sentencing. Your sentencing was illegal from the rip. Absolutely. Okay, so that makes sense, right? It is everybody's fault. Ultimately, it's your lawyer. I mean, you should know how dirty the feds play. For sure. It's like a bureaucratic, like you just forget. got. You can't overlook this shit. Right. Like go to chat GPT. Is this a legal sentence? Right. Yeah, it is not. It wasn't a chat GPT back then. Of course, obviously. But like, you know, spend a couple of days and get your assistance to go thumbing through the books. You know what I mean? If it's all written. So it's all, well, let's get to it. Let's save that for the end about how you discovered were you aware at the time that it was an illegal sentence. No, I suppose not. Yeah, I didn't know that my sentence was illegal until I would say 2009. And when I say illegal meaning that the court didn't have jurisdiction to impose life without the possibility of parole because the government never filed an A51 notice. I didn't know that my priors didn't qualify. I didn't learn that until the lawyer who's now a court of appeals judge until he was the one that reached out and actually told me, listen, your sentence is illegal and this is the reason why. So they reached out to you in prison. Right. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Okay. So your four days go by. Jerry finds you guilty. Is is federal jury? Is that you got to have a unanimous guilty verdict? Okay. I believe so. Yeah. In your sentence to what? April 7, 2006. I received 20 life sentences. 10 to run concurrent and 10 to run consecutive under the 3559 statute. Okay. And they used your, now this is my prior convictions that I had that said that subjected me to because under the federal three strikes law, you have to have two or more serious drug offenses or crime of violence in order to be subjected to a, the three strikes law. And didn't you have two crimes of violence, the shooting, the two shootings? Yeah. I did. As well as the, the mayor wanted, they considered that marijuana charge to be a serious drug offense as well too. So then how were those not? How did it end up that those didn't qualify? Well, on the federal three strikes law, as well as the armed terrorist criminal criminal statute, nine, 22G. You have to have a crime of violence, prior conviction that's punishable by 10 years or more, or be a serious drug offense that's punishable by 10 years or more. Well, I had prior convictions for the two assault cases as well as the drug conviction, the small drug conviction. But neither prior was punishable by 10 years or more. They were only punishable by seven. So therefore, they were not considered to be qualifying prior convictions. So therefore, I should have never been subjected to, you know, to be sentenced on the federal three strikes law because I never had the prior conviction that were qualifying for our convictions. That three years. Right. That very, very close thin line. Yeah. And that's what your original attorneys overlooked. Absolutely. Wow. Okay. Now, to give them a little grace, that is a very, that is a very specific loophole or detail that they overlooked, but it costs you your life. So, I assume your family's devastated. Where do they shoot you to? Where do you go? What do you do time? My first, I landed. My first one was a misery mountain. You know, they call it misery mountain. They call USP Hazeltson, United States Penitentiary Hazeltson. They call it misery mountain. That's where a whitey booger got killed at that press. Yeah. Okay. And do you go in there thinking your life's over or what kind of time were you doing? My mindset going in was to keep fighting. You know, there was no way that I was going to walk in there and accept what was given to me just because nobody on my case got sensed over 10 years. You know, all of my co-defendants, one of my co-defendants received a year and a half. The second least amount of time was six and a half years. The third least amount of time was 51 months. The fourth least amount of time was nine years. And then the fifth least amount of time was 10 years, seven months. And then the sixth least amount of time was 10 years, nine months. You know, I'm saying to you and then I was the only one to receive 10, ultimately 10 consecutive life sentences. Right. Do you think you could have even if they hadn't discovered the illegal sentencing because of your prior convictions, you know, having been found guilty of a crime of violence in punishable way over 10 years. Do you think just you could have won in a sentencing appeal based off of the discrepancy of the time? Of course, I argued the sentencing disparity, you know, and even like in the precincts report, we were all just considered to be average participants. You know, I'm saying to you, but my my my sentence was nothing more than a trial penalty. You know, I'm saying you people don't people don't people don't people don't pay attention or realize this though, but if you ever if you've ever been to a USP, right, 95% of the people that are in sitting in United States, the United States of penitentiaries in the federal system have 30 years or better. You don't see nobody going home for a long time. You know, I'm saying to you and that's what the federal court is doing or that's what they were doing then. I don't know about now, but then they're handing out if you go to trial, they're going to punish you for that. You understand you because you have to because this is this is this is what I would say to you. Okay. If you and I are indicted for the exact same thing, you know, you're less you're no more culpable than I'm culpable, right? And they give you 10 years, right? You're not a dangerous society at all, right? What makes me a dangerous society? You know what makes me a dangerous, what makes me a danger is because I decide to stand on something and believe in something and have morals and principles and not cooperate and they punish me for it. That's all it is. But if you're telling me that I'm no more culpable than you are, then why don't get 10 years? Right. You get them saying to you, forget about prior convictions because, you know, you had a coder friend who had the same amount of priors. You had some of them. You had more priors than I had as well too. But because they cooperated, you know, I'm saying to you, now all of a sudden, they're not considered to be a dangerous society, but I'm considered to be a danger because I decide to put 12 in the box and I'll loss. Right. You get them saying so therefore it's punitive. It's cruel and unusual. Absolutely. And I argue that as well too. You know, okay. So tell us, yeah, did you file appeals? I assume you've filed multiple appeals. I filed multiple appeals. I tried everything. Like one by one of the things that I did was I always told myself I'm going to always keep something from that judge's face. Always. You know, whether it was the district court or whether it was the court of appeals because I just couldn't accept spending the rest of my life in prison because I didn't feel like I deserved it. The crime just didn't fit the time. You know, it just didn't. You know, and so, you know, when I walked into prison, you know, my main goal and focus was to change everything about myself. You know, I wasn't walking and conforming to no normal prison. You know, I'm saying to you, my mind, you know, my mind was always outside of prison. You know, that was the most important thing for me because I had kids that I had to get back to, I had a family that had to get back to, and I just, I just felt like I was way, I was much smarter than that to be sitting here for the rest of my life for some stupid shit. You know, and so that was always my goal. My goal was always, was always get out and just to consider you to fight, you know, that was what it was for me. So you must have spent a lot of, a lot of library time. Absolutely. Yeah. Did you hire like a jailhouse lawyer? No. See, I had a, when I went in, I had a paid attorney. And he was the one who handled my initial appeal to appeal my sins. And ultimately that was denied. And then I was in the, we were in the process of hiring a third lawyer to actually file my 2255, my habeas corpus motion. But at that time, that's when my mother passed away because my mother passed away when I was in there. And so when she passed away, I remember calling my, my, my Gwinder and, you know, I'm telling her, look, I need a lawyer. And so I remember her having a conversation and she's telling me she said, listen, you know, we can do it, you know, but she's like, I listen to you call his phone every week, you know, talking about your case. And she says, nobody knows that case better than you do. She said, and you know, dummy, you know, get your butt in that law library, you know, and learn. And so I remember that. And so when she said that, that's when I stayed in there, you know, and I happened to come across a guy who was actually a lawyer, but he was a civil attorney. And so I would just, you know, I don't sit next to him and I always have my sponge. I would always pick him for information. I learned how to research cases, case law, read case law, you know, when things are that nature. And so, you know, when I did that, I was able to understand everything that happened and transpired, you know. And so, in just working with him, I ended up filing my first 2255 habeas corpus motion process with his help. And he was the one who actually discovered that the government never filed an A-51 notice which they had to by law in order to give the court jurisdiction to impose the three strikes law against me. - That's what that A-51 is. - A-51 is, it's a notice. Like, 'cause you have people that are in there with drug convictions, too, there was the time with me as well, too, that had life sentences based on A-51. Because you have two other prior drug convictions before this third one you caught, and the court can sentence you to life without the possibility of parole based on that. But the government has to file it, though, like you can, - Like pretrial sentence. - Pretrial sentence and things of that nature, they have to file, even because they, even before you even plead guilty, they have to file this. They have to file this before you even plead guilty because it has to give you an opportunity, because if the government's goal and position, for you to be subjected to life without the possibility of parole at sentencing, they have to file the notice. And so what they do is, in order to get people to cooperate, that's also a tactic they do as well, too, is they'll file the notice with your indictment, hey, we're gonna give you life without the possibility of parole. You know, and then when you look on there, they have to also list those prior convictions, and it gives you an opportunity to be able to challenge those, because if you challenge those, and the court rules in your favor, as it relates to them not being qualified in priors, then now you know, okay, well, I'm not subjected to life without the possibility of parole. And then some people can say, okay, well, I'm gonna go to trial, or I'm still gonna take a plea agreement. - And so your U.S. attorney just forgot to file that with the judge. - No. - Yeah, for sure. - Wow, yeah. - Get the, I mean, bozos, morons. - Yeah. - That's why they work for the government. - Yeah. - If they had game, they would have a thriving private practice, but these are the worst lawyers. And so that's really fascinating how so many people are out that have had life sentences. - Yeah. - Okay, so you discovered that. What did you do with that information? - Well, I filed my first 2255 motion, my habeas corpus motion, I filed that first. - And for people who don't know, what is the habeas corpus motion? - It's a, it's a remedy that you can actually file. And that's actually the first time that they say legally is when you can challenge and argue that your lawyer was ineffective. A habeas corpus motion is, you know, like because first of all, your direct appeal is what happens first after sentencing. Your direct appeal is what happens first. And it's, and this is you being able to say, okay, well, the sentencing judge or the judge committed X amount of errors, whether it was pre-trial motions, whether it was sentenced in violations, whatever. That's what the direct appeal is for. But when you come and you, when you come and habeas corpus realm, now you're talking about the conviction. It's now you can actually challenge the conviction of your circumstance or the situation. And so there's a multitude of claims and issues that you can present before the court at that particular point. - Okay. - And at this time, is this before 2009, when you got that letter from the lawyer telling you that there was-- - Did I discover this? - Yeah. - Yeah, that was in 2009. I didn't get the letter, I actually didn't get the phone call from the lawyer until the beginning of the pandemic, 2000, and was it 20? - Yeah. - 2020. - Okay, so what was the result of the habeas corpus? - It was. - The crazy thing about it is that when I filed my 2255 motion, my habeas corpus motion, the government responded, right? The government responded, and when the government responded, the judge denied the motion two days later after the government responded. But the crazy thing about it is the way that you argue, when you get to that level with, I filed, the government filed a response, and I have a legal right to file a reply before the judge can rule. So when she denied the motion two days after the government had filed before I even got a chance to reply, I knew then it just even validated more how much she just did not like me. Because here it was, you jumped the gun, right? So-- - Couldn't have the judge. - Yes, so I have to follow the motion to the court to just say, how can you deny my motion when I didn't reply yet? When legally on the rule, I believe it was rule 11, I have the right to reply. And so she's, oh yeah, okay, go ahead and file your reply. But now already, no, you're gonna deny it. So I filed a reply, she tries to sit on it and wait some months, and then all of a sudden, she just comes back with her original order and denying my 2255 motion. Well, like I said, I'm just someone who is new to this whole legal stuff. So I didn't really understand everything that was happening 'cause she did not all of my claims. But at the same time, there were some claims that were unanswered claims as well too. And legally, you're supposed to address and answer every single claim. One of the claims that she didn't address nor did the government respond to or respond to was the fact that they never filed an A51 notice. So after that, for years, that's what I argue. Even after I got denied in 2009, I always said to core, hey, you have to adjudicate this claim. You have to answer this claim. But it was just still the now, after the now, after the now, after the now. And do you keep running it up to a higher court? Or what happens after you get denied for one claim? - Right, see, the tricky thing about the feds is that you have a right for the court of appeals to hear your motion, right, on direct appeal. But you don't have a right for them to hear your appeals after that. You have to file, you have to get granted a certificate of appellability. And the crazy thing about it is that you have to first file a certificate of appellability to the same district court just that just denied you, right? And then if they deny that, then that's what you can go to the court of appeals and say, hey, I need a certificate of appellability, which is basically just giving you permission to be able to even appeal the district course that now, if you're 2255. But when I tell you it's so hard, if you ask anybody who's been in the federal system and anybody that knows about the law when they come to the federal system, it is extremely hard and difficult to get a certificate of appellability. And so when I tell you that after losing a 2255, it gets tighter and tighter and tighter. You get them saying to you in order for a court to hear your case. What did you need? Is that what you needed? You needed to get back before an appellate court? I honestly, because if the judge, excuse me, if the prosecutor and the judge who originally gave you your sentence are against you, like what is the recourse? You have to go to the higher, you have to go to their bonds, right? You have to go, 'cause see, like, see, the Supreme Court governs the court of appeals, the court of appeal governs the district court. Right. That's the pecking order. I'm saying to you, and so even like a lot of times, like people don't, like, I used to, like, like one of the things that I learned over the years and just dealing with the being in the law library is that a lot of times you had guys that would come in and file pro-safe motions and they're citing all Supreme Court cases to the district court judge when that's not the way to do it. You have to cite the court of appeals, right? Case law, because that's who governs you, right? And so you're wondering why your motions get denied, your motions get denied because you're citing cases that, wow, okay, you might think that the district court has to follow what the Supreme Court says and know they have to follow what the court of appeal says. Right, you can't go to the highest court, right? That's the pecking order, get them saying to you. Gotcha. And so that's just ultimately how it is. So you got denied at the district level? Yeah. You got denied at the appellate level? Yeah. Wow, what year was that that you lost the appellate? I would say maybe 2011, 2012, but I didn't stop though. I still, I still try. Were you losing hope at any point? You can't, you know, it's hard. You know, of course, there might have been days where you, you know, you question, you know, but you can't lose hope, you know, unless you're somebody who just wants to accept that as being the end for you then. That's how you lose hope, but I just couldn't accept it. You must have seen guys going home off-life sentences that gave you hope, that gave you drive to keep going, right? I'm not in the beginning. Like I said, you know, when you're sitting, you know, anybody is, there's in those USPs, man, you don't see nobody really going home. You know, I've been, I've been in facilities where I've, you know, I've done four years, five years, and you don't see nobody going home. You know, only time you might see somebody go home is if you're seeing somebody who is on a violation, comes back on a violation or something like that. You know, but for the most part, it was not going home, you know, so I didn't really see nobody going home. It wasn't until, like the drug laws change, the crack laws change, you start seeing dudes, you know, a couple of dudes going home. And then when President Obama was in office, and he was commuting those senses, I was seeing dudes, you know, they had life in their senses, commuter, they had been down for a while going home. You know, and then certain laws changing on the court of appeals level, as well as the Supreme Court level, you know, where dudes will start going home. But I was, I wasn't in those USPs. That's when I was, you know, in the lower level of security facilities. - Right. - 'Cause years later, you did get classed down to the lowest. - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I went from USP to Medium to Low. And when I got released from custody, I was a low custody. That's how I got released from Sanstom and so on. - So you were just a model inmate. Does it sound like you got any trouble? - No, I didn't have one instant report. The whole time I was in there. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, that's the way to do it. - Yeah. - So you, it's 2019, 2020, when your life changes, - Right. - What, tell us what happened? - At the time, like I said to you, there was a case that came down from a Supreme Court called United States versus Davis. And that case was shaped around 924 C convictions. And how, if the predicate offense was not considered to be a crime of violence, the judge, or did the judge couldn't impose a sentence, a consecutive sentence or a sentence using the 924 C statue, right, which is ultimately possession of a firearm. But in a course of a crime of violence, or in a furthest of the drug trafficking offense, that's what the 924 C is. Okay, and so this case, it came down. And when the case, it came down, you know, one of the things in the federal system is that there's a database that everybody's incarcerated under, you know, whatever statute it is, you know what I'm saying to you. And so, when there's a case, when there's a change in the law, whether it's comes from Supreme Court, or Congress or the Sensing Commission, there's a list of names of people that may be subjected to relief because of the chains of the law. And so every district, every district, and every city, and every federal system, or whatever, they get hit with a list of names. And for free, they have to represent you. And so what happened was because of the United States and Davis case, my name had hit the list of people that may be subjected to relief based on the 924 C convictions that I was convicted under. And so, the attorney, which is, you know, shout out to Keela E, you know, he's a court of appeals judge now. He was the attorney who researched my case properly the right way. And he was the one who actually discovered that my prior convictions were not qualifying prior convictions that wanted me to ever be subjected to be sentenced on the federal three strikes law. 'Cause like, you know, I was the, I'm like, even like to this day on the first and only person in Minnesota history to be sentenced on the federal three strikes law, you know, and it was done illegally. - Right. - And so he had reached out to the unit manager, actually he caught up there and reached out to the unit manager. He didn't see me a letter. And she set up a legal call. At the time, prior to that before them actually locking the institution now because of the pandemic, I had filed a 2255 motion before the court once again, telling the court, hey, look, my sense is illegal. My lawyer was an effective, you know, amongst, you know, a multitude of other issues that I presented and came and went based on case law and different things that had changed throughout the course of my incarceration. And so when she set up this legal call, I'm assuming or thinking that he was originally when she told me that a lawyer caught up there that the judge was going to grant me an evidentiary hearing and usually when, you know, if you're a pro se and you file a motion and the court grass and evidentiary hearing that you see a point of counsel to represent you during this particular hearing unless you just insist on being pro se. That's what I thought the phone call was originally for. It wasn't until I actually sat and spoke to him that he informed me that my sentence was illegal and that from the very beginning, I should have never been sentenced to life without the possibility of parole because I've never had the priors to qualify for. - Right, which again, just to reiterate, were crime of violence with a firearm that carried a sentence of over 10 years. - Yeah, did I did not have priors that were pro, that were qualifying priors that were, that were prior convictions that were 10 years or more. They were only seven years, seven years was the max. - And those were for the shootings. - And those were for the shootings or the prior drug conviction. - Right, yeah. - And this guy, he was working with the federal government who was, he worked at the federal defender's office. - Got it, okay. So they, whenever a law, a case law comes down, there's a Supreme Court decision that changes all of the circumstances of the convicted inmates, they get alerted, the federal public defenders. - Right. - Okay, that's pretty awesome. - Yeah, they do. - That's like one of the more benevolent things I've heard of the system supplying, you know. Okay, that's super interesting. I hope people hear that, they're listening or watching. Wow, so you must have been, you probably couldn't sleep that night. - Right, you know, the funny thing about it is, you know, at first like when he called up there and he explained to me, I didn't really, you know, I didn't really understand it, you know, because like I said, I have researched my case through and through, you know. And I've seen it where it said that, but I'm sending myself like, whoa, you know, I got these prior convictions that, you know, 'cause like when you look at the statute, they list certain priors of socks and things like that. But I didn't see that little fine print that they said punishment by 10 years or more. I always, I always look past it. But of course, you know, once I got off the phone with him and I looked and I researched it myself, 'cause I have, you know, my, I have my legal work in my, you know, in myself. - Mm-hmm. - And I went and I really looked at it. I'm like, oh yeah, he's right, you know. And so now when I discovered this, like I said to you, this is the time, you know, again, when George Floyd was murdered, you know. And so I called my family, you know. I'm like, hey, it's with the lawyer said, you know, he represent me, you know. And so I'm like, man, we need to go to the media with this because I should have never received this amount of time, you know. And so, and I remember the next conversation I had with my total, I'm like, my family, we're going to the media. And he's like, no, 'cause the government had already called at that time once he put them on notice as to what actually transpired and happened, you know, that's when they're like, well, hold on. Let's resolve this on the table. They didn't want to go, like they didn't even have to go back to the DOJ to the Justice Department to even get permission to do what they did. They were trying to find a way to try to resolve it on the table. You get them saying to you, because they knew it was so illegal. - Yeah, because you have to understand, at that particular time when George Floyd is murdered, you have the whole world and the uproar, you know. Just imagine how that looks in the state of Minnesota. You know, here it is, there's this guy that you guys plastered on the news that you had in multiple news, paper articles, you know. And you guys gave all of this time too for a non-cabitor offense. You know, here it is. You mean to tell me this entire time, it was illegal. That the man never had the prior convictions to qualify or even weren't you to be able to sense him to mandatory life without the possibility of parole. Like, I never was supposed to receive a license, you know. - You had like this tie, you and the unibomber. - Listen, the crazy thing about it is like, when you look at my documentary, that's one of the things like, I don't know if you're familiar with the BTK killer. He received 10 consecutive life sentences for killing nine people, you know. I have the same amount of time that this guy has for a non-cabitor offense. Like, you have to make that make sense to me, you know. - So at this point, so yeah, they're just trying to play ball. They want to deal immediately. - Okay, we're so sorry. Let's adjudicate this and get you home before you sue us, before you go to the media with it. - Right. - How did you feel? Were you, departed you say, because we've had guys on here who were getting, get ready to get paid a lot of money for the dead time that they did. The time that they were illegally incarcerated. It's like thousands of dollars a day. Maybe even more than that. - Yeah. - It might be like by the hour they pay you. But what did you think? Did you depart at you say no, I want to like, I want my money. money. Right. No, for me, it wasn't about, it wasn't about the money, you know, for me, it was just about the blessing. And the second opportunity of life, you know, a second opportunity yet at fatherhood, you know, a second opportunity at, you know, being able to spend time with my family, being able to, to just fall in love again, you know, with a woman like those were the things that, you know, like the money that, you know, that can be made a different way, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't, for me, this is not a tack, this is not no attack on the, on the federal government or the criminal justice system per se like that. It's not an attack. I just think that one of the biggest things is that, you know, I just want people to understand that no matter what my situation was or no matter what circumstances that you go through in life, that you can overcome it. My biggest blessing is me being able to sit across from this table right now and just actually share the story and tell the story to you. That means more than meeting money. You get them saying to you, so I didn't have no, I don't have no gripe, you know, it's not about me suing anybody. Like, no, I'm going to be blessed in a different way. This right here today is a blessing to be able to, to be free from prison, to be able to breathe a different air that's out here. That's what I take away from it. I don't, it's not about the money. So you really were a changed man at this point. Absolutely. And that is in 2020 just right as COVID's breaking. So did you guys adjudicate it before COVID or did you wait? Well, see what ended up happening was for two weeks. My lawyer, as well as the government, they kind of went back and forth trying to figure out the best resolution because like my lawyer at the time, he was trying to give me immediate release. That was the goal. And if not that, even just the original plea agreement without the cooperation. Which was, which was, which was, which was that which would kick me out the door. And so, but they weren't willing to do that. And so what ended up happening was they were stuck at 300 months, which is 25 years. And he contacted the facility, you know, and he, you know, said to me, look, this is what they're offering. But I need an answer, you know, do you want to take it? You know, and so of course, you know, a second chance at life. I take it. So, so you, you got resentanced. Right. And you accepted a plea deal for 25 years. Yeah, they came. The agreement was that they would follow a joint motion with my lawyer. And they would agree to 30 month, about 300 months sentence, right? This miss counts 11 through 19, which was the 924 C to firearms dismissed those. And then and keep the same sentence intact on count one, which is 240 months. And then impose a five-year sentence for the felony possession of firearm charge that I was also, that I also had as well too, which made it 25 years. And when they filed a joint motion, my lawyer jumped on board with their motion. And then the court ultimately just granted their motion because they acknowledged that they had made an error by charging me with the 3559 statute. Did your original sentencing judge? Was she the one that was forced to do it? Now, did she do it willingly or? Yeah, she, she, I mean, because you, like I said, you have to understand that think about the time that we're in, you know, where the time, like I said, you again, we're joy for this murder. Like you, like, you know, it was, you know, five years prior to that, if we would have had the same issue before the court, she would have had to legally grant the motion. But I still could have been subjected to 45 years because I got 20 years on count one of the forensic conspiracy. But then I also have these two felony possession of firearm counts that I can receive 15 years on. And so, but because of the times that we're in, you know, it's kind of hard for you to be able to say, okay, well, you know what, I'm still going, I'm still going, I'm still going dog, but then also, you know, if I can rewind back, we have to talk about post rehabilitation, you know, and that was one of the goals or that was one of the commitments that I made to myself when I walked into prison, you know, was to change everything about me because I always told myself that it's given a second opportunity to be back in front of any judge. I want to give them a reason to have mercy on me. You know, and so that's why when I walk into prison, I program, you know, I, you know, I end up having over 50 or 60 certification certificates. I got certified as a personal trainer. I was a suicide companion for four years. I had wrote multiple books while being in there, you know, and I had never had an incident report. You know, these were the things that I focused on while I was in prison, as opposed to, you know, anything else. And so, I think that once the court looked at everything in a nutshell, I think that's what ultimately allowed the court to be able to say it's a no-brainer here, you know, and give them an opportunity. Yeah, I think judges, too, even though it seems vindictive, or maybe it was vindictive, you know, years have gone by. Yeah. So maybe their attitudes have softened, right? The pendulum is swung, you know. Did you ever hear from the AUSA that originally put the case on you? You know, one of the craziest and funniest stories I can tell you is this, I had two prosecutors on my case, right? And one of the prosecutors that was that prosecutor my case was the head U.S. attorney at the time that this all transpired. She had to sign off. My, this is the prosecutor who were prosecuting me. She had to sign off on them filing this joint motion to the court for the court to be able to vacate my sentence. And so, you know, when I sit back and I think about things, just imagine how that comes back for a circle. Yeah. You know, this is the same prosecutor who prosecuted my case who says, okay, you know what? We want him to spend the rest of his life in prison had to ought to be be the one to say, hey, look, file this motion and sign off on it. She was the head of the district. She was the head of the U.S. attorney of the district. That does get the district of Minnesota in Minneapolis office. Yeah. So for fucking up, breaking a law, overlooking the sentencing statues, she got a promotion. Yeah. These fucking bums. Yeah. These fucking bums. It happens. That's why I pray for a big currency crisis. I want the whole economy collapse so we can finally cut out 80% of the whole government all of them. They're cancer. Anyways, it's a little side note. See, I get very emotional. Yeah. You're all calm. You're the one at this time. Yeah. I see. So, um, so you'd already been down in 2020 for 16 years. 16 and a half. 16 and a half. So then off of 25, 85% of that is like 22 or something. Yeah. I mean, when I got, when my sense got vacated, I got to resend my original outdate or projected release date was September 14, 2025. And of course, like I said, once my sense got vacated, I then qualified for things that had changed throughout the years in the federal system. And one of those being the first step act, which was an act that Donald Trump signed into office. Yeah. And with the first step act, because I had accumulated so many days just based on programming, I qualified for a year off my sentence. Right. So, um, I ended up going from September 14, 2025 to September 14, 2024. Um, and then like I said, once again, um, I had qualified for so many different things that had changed. I qualified as well under the second chance act, which was that I could receive up to a year, um, half a house or home confinement. Um, and so because like I said, I had done so many, I had, you know, I had so many different programs under my belt. Um, I ultimately was eligible for 17 months. But due to the best space in a half a house, you know, because of the first step act and then starting to release a lot of people early, because they qualified for, um, I ought to me got released 13 months early, um, for prison. So, you came home, I came home, um, August, uh, 13th, uh, 2023. Wow. Yeah. That's why I did 19 years, two months and four days. What an Odyssey, man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I respect the, the mind, the strength of your mind. Yeah. Uh, I mean, you should see what happens when like a FedEx package doesn't get delivered on time. Right. I, I lose it. I fucking lose it. I just, I don't know. I'm probably pampered. You know what I mean, we came up differently, but yeah, you know, I think, I think you've got something in you too, to even from a young age, like, stand it on your principles of not snitching. I think you got good karma for that. Yeah. Um, and, and just not being defeated. Right. From, from looking at just death, just walk, I would see dues when I was locked up with no, no release date, and I'm just like, I'm looking at a dead man. Yeah. Just in living form. Yeah. For you to deny that in your mind is, I think, really rare and, uh, but necessary. You know, your man, manifesting it. Rick Ross, three-way Rick Ross. He had a similar mindset. He was like, "I'm not in here. I'm in here physically, but I'm going to get out." And he did. So I really, really respect it. That was, that's pretty amazing. And now you're out here making content, dude. Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, what do you want to promote? I mean, the documentary, you have a documentary that you made about this? We have, you know, just, you know, me sharing the story as well, you know, we, myself and my brother executive producer project called Minnesota Justice. And again, you know, it's just about, you know, me telling people what happened, what transpired. And just how much, even just like, I respect every protester that got out there in a Martian, a protested, falling a different George Floyd. I respect them because I tell people this all the time, you know, and I even mention it, you know, in the documentary where it's like, I don't believe in them here right now. Had they not done that, you know, because for years, you know, the same things that, that people, you know, African-Americans, you know, in minorities are eligible for or bring forth today, were ignored prior to that. And they were ignored for years. That's where the frustration and anger grew from. Because for years, we felt like they were getting away with so much. You get them saying to you, and that we were unheard, you know, and so, you know, once people, you know, we got to, to a point where they seen, you know, some like have actually happened live on TV that couldn't nobody. You couldn't, they're, how do you, how do you, how do you look away from that, you know, and you've seen the response and the reaction from the world, not just this country, but even just other countries and just the anger and the frustration. It's hard, like I said to you, to, to, to, to walk away from that, you know, and so, for the people that did go out there and march and protest, I'm grateful, extremely grateful, you know, and I tell people this all the time too, is there's like, you know, while we know that it was a tragedy, I feel like he was a sacrifice for people like myself, you know, to be given the second opportunity, the second chance at life, as well as, you know, other things that, you know, we have, you know, been able to gain and benefit from, you know, so while it was definitely a tragedy, as well, there's also been blessings that have come out of income from it as well too, and I'm living proof that one of, I'm a, I'm a blessing, because of something like that, you know, so yeah, I'm grateful. Well, congratulations on your freedom, man. Yeah, I appreciate it for you. I'm happy to have you out. Yeah, I'm doing very well. So, we're going to put a link to your documentary. It's a four part. Yeah, it's going to be a four part documentary series. It's going to be on your YouTube channel. Yeah, it's going to be on a YouTube channel that we're starting and we're creating. And, you know, I also too, you know, myself and my brother, we have a podcast that we started called Brother to Brother. And, you know, we just want to join all conversations. You know, I look at this podcast, Roman, this podcast space, it's a dope space to be in. I think that, you know, especially, you know, me being someone who has done time and who has experienced a bunch of different things. And even just watching all of these other podcasts, just kind of giving an opinion and have a voice when it comes to certain things. I know that I can help shape certain conversations and certain arguments, you know, and get people to be able to understand things on a different level. I think that's extremely important for myself is to be able to do that. You know, so we're working hard, man. And I have, you know, I have other interviews that I'm looking forward to lined up. Yeah, so check them out on Instagram. By the time this comes out, I think the first parts of the documentary will be out. So we'll link to that. And yeah, just going forward, man, we wish you nothing but the best. Check your podcast, brother to brother. Yeah. Yeah, this was really fascinating. I appreciate it. Thank you for coming on. I appreciate the opportunity. Of course. Alright, you guys. We'll see you next time. Peace.