Canada

Oh my god, Hayden, you're calling me. I've tried you a couple of times now and you just ignored the call. I mean, I didn't hear it, but I was also in the toilet. Before we sort of get into things, I understand that New Zealand is having its annual Bird of the Year competition. Voting closes Sunday the 20th of September. Oh yeah. From what I understand, you're repping one bird quite heavily, and I think it is a flightless bird. I don't understand this. Okay, I am now becoming associated with the kākāpō, and this is only because I have credited them on their best ever fuck season. And so now I'm being sucked down a kākāpō wormhole. Basically, it's the world's fattest parrot. It has a really stupid convoluted breeding process where it only breeds once every two to four years when a particular tree produces a master season of berries, which are fleshy and red and nourishing, and they can be eaten by the rats, and then the kākāpō can be eaten by the birds. Anyway, it's all like this, and it's stupid. Our birds are stupid. They are not designed to live, or they're not designed to live with humans, that's for sure. Anyway, they did really well this year. They produced 90 new birds, and now there's 325 of them, which is still not very many. And I credited them with this in an article, and now I'm the kākāpō guy, and I am endorsing them for Bird of the Year. This episode of Flightless Bird is about Canada. Do you have any thoughts on Canada, Hayden? Yeah, man. I love Canada. It's the New Zealand to America's Australia. It is. It is. I actually named an album Newfoundland, because I quite like the name, just Newfoundland. Of course. Your former band, Great North, I'm a big fan, disbanded a number of years ago. Yeah, disbanded. That's right. And I love just that kind of massive wild wilderness, the sense of mystery of that kind of like. Yeah. diverse space, and the sort of, what is it, northeast of the country is sort of appealing to me. It feels like an enigmatic, like Nova Scotia. What the hell is that about? I read Annie Prolke's The Shipping News, and it's set on Newfoundland, and I love the idea of just doing the shipping news in the local newspaper on an island in the middle of nowhere, where it's freezing. And I love Toronto. I went to Toronto. I loved it. I saw Bruce Springsteen in Hamilton, Ontario. I've been to Montreal. I've never been to Vancouver. I hear it's terrible and shit there, and I'd think that if you're from Vancouver, fuck you. I don't know why I'm doing this. Well, you'll be glad to know that for most of this episode, I spend, which is going to annoy a lot of Canadians, I spend most of my time in Vancouver. Oh, no. I was going so well, and then something overtook me. I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. And as I record this intro on this show, I'm going to focus on the studio. I realize I wasn't in Vancouver. I was in Toronto, which shows how much I've learned about Canada in this episode. Strap in. If you're a listener to our bonus Patreon episodes, you'll know that recently both me and Rob have been outside of the United States to a fabled place called Canada. Rob was there on a holiday. I was there to see my friend Rosabelle put on a dance show. With that in mind, it seems appropriate to do an episode on Canada. A country that's frankly quite sick of America by now. And fair enough. Trump's trade war and weird threats to take over Canada and rename Lake Ontario to Lake America, it's rattled Canada's nerves. They're sick of it. So mount your nearest Mountie and put some maple syrup on your pancakes, because this is the Canada episode. So David, you were in Vancouver? No. I was in Toronto. And I realized as I listened to that phone call with Hayden that I know probably even less about Canada than I did going in. Because I thought I was in Vancouver and it just occurred to me that I was in Vancouver. I was in Toronto. Which, very different places. Very far apart, too. I don't want to start this episode by like, bagging Canada, because I love Canada. But I also realized that I don't know anything about it. So Toronto is central. It's kind of between New York and Chicago. Yes, I was there. Yes. I remember seeing New York from across Niagara Falls. Yes. And then, uh, even east of that, you got Montreal. Okay. They speak French there. Yeah, beautiful city. Friend of the show, Liz Plank. Yes. She is from Montreal. Um, and then all the way on the west side, just above Seattle, is Vancouver. I feel like. Different from Toronto. When we were talking about Canada a while ago, I kind of mentioned in passing, and I made it sound like Toronto and Vancouver were very close to each other. And a listener wrote in quite annoyed at that. And I realized, oh, the noise is coming from all over the place. and i realize it'll annoy them even more by now well weirdly i'm gonna be in vancouver next weekend oh my god can you so okay you rob will bring us back information about vancouver's like because i didn't fucking go there um i've yeah i'm spending more and more i love canada you love it we both love it yeah i i went there as the first the only fairy family trip was to canada when i was eight years old we went to i think vancouver and toronto because i saw niagara falls when i was eight and that is in toronto so we're learning i have um yet to go to vancouver so i am oh looking forward so you actually can bring back some learnings from that part of canada yes great maybe i don't know what i'm gonna have time for but it's very quick in and out you can do some um you can research the food you can eat you can maybe have a little drink of a non-alcoholic local beer and maybe a local candy those would be the three things i would do there two of those three are probably not for you not gonna do oh my god well i'll let you invent what you want to do i want to explain my flusteredness a little bit yeah uh before we get into the doc and canada and everything we've learned about canada on saturday i was at my local cafe in griffith park with moby right uh moby yeah he was there having his coffee on his little about uh his little uh park bench that he loves to use what's he actually his little ball dome no he wasn't there this particular day but he is there often yeah it is moby's local um and i just want to go and rub his little bald head yeah i was lining up for my coffee uh pit bull french bulldog we don't quite know what it is bolted past me and then this 10 year old kid runs after it and he's like did a dog go this way like can you help and i was everyone there you know sort of they're sort of 9 a.m they're sort of waking up in l.a they usually i mean that's an early start for most people in l.a i took chase uh i grabbed this dog uh and the kid said that him and his mom said that half an hour earlier a bandit pulled up a guy who looked they described him as being a beard and pretty out of it whatever that meant uh threw the dog out and drove off so it'd been dumped i thought you were about to say then the the kid said that was the bravest thing i've ever seen anyone do oh well he said that as he said that as well as i grabbed the dog yeah no everyone you must be brave and everyone was cheering this is exactly yeah are you there were you there as i heard about it on the news yeah they were made the local news yeah they were local local man say i mean i am what can i say i'm a hero i grabbed the dog uh and cut a long story short um i now have what appears to be a large uh large no he's large no no he is no that's um bulldog that uh i'd say sort of they're smallish this is more pit bull size i would say yeah he's big you know yeah all the photos don't do it justice very little big he's in my apartment he's up for adoption um put up a photo here's a photo if you're watching on youtube or spotify here's a photo of this beautiful dog i've called him alan he's the most mellow well-behaved dog i've ever met he loves children he loves other dogs um he shat on my floor the first night but that's just because he didn't know where he was uh and if you want to adopt him because he's doing my head and he's a lot because he's so loving and i am i just don't i can't take all this dog in my life yeah yeah i mean you you tend to reject love so i find i don't reject love i reject something clinging on to me 24 7 um which is sometimes associated with love right but this dog is so affectionate he doesn't never not want to be touching me like as we record this he's at home just whining his head off well that's maybe not the best thing in your sales pitch to say i want to be honest i don't want you i want to sell that you know you know what you're getting yeah if you are in la and you want a beautiful dog uh flightless bird chat at gmail.com only if you're serious the number of people that are reaching out inquiries only serious only um how old is he's one and a half years old the vet said because his teeth are very white yeah there's no tartar buildup and you've been brushing them Yeah, I'm brushing them every night He's going to get neutered this week What else about him? You're neutering him The vet's neutering him I'm not taking care of that surgery That would be terrifying Although my dad was a veterinarian He could maybe talk me through it on the phone Is that typically Something that you're supposed to do If you find a dog Is get it neutered Is that help in the selling points? I don't know if I'm using the right term He's a male dog And you generally If you keep their testicles From what I know They tend to piss on everything And they're also a bit more aggressive So they'll mark wherever they go Did they recommend you do that Because someone's more likely to adopt him If he's neutered? No, it's just generally like a dog safety thing It's like It means you won't breed And have more puppies everywhere And it means you'll be less Sort of I guess sort of manly And like pissy and stuff Right, right, right I'm just wondering why you're taking on The responsibility of neutering him Oh, so I mean There's so much more story around this So I got this dog I called my friend who rescues huskies They came to the cafe and met me And they said we need to hook you up With an animal rescue So they took me down to a local pet store There's a rescue called Los Feliz Animal Rescue And they basically Checked to see if he's chipped He wasn't chipped So he's just a complete mystery dog They posted all over the internet On Nextdoor and Reddit saying Have you lost this dog? In case he'd been stolen at some point They chipped him I signed up to foster him And they find him a home And I'm helping them I didn't quite know how much it was to take on To foster a dog in a small apartment When you live on your own And it's just sort of you trying to manage this creature Yep So I was like Um But you have a dog I guess you They are They are full on, right? Yeah I sort of I've never had a dog in such a large dose But he is lovely and chill And like I would say Too loving Like he's just attached To you 24-7 Maybe some trauma from being dumped out of a van I think so By its owner Yeah, it's pretty rough Yeah Um So you're doing all the vet things And basically The whole idea of the animal shelter And maybe this is a whole other Um Episode The animal rescue Is just to get them Healthy Vaccinated Ready to be in a home Where they're not gonna just go out And like Fuck things up Got it Yeah, yeah I was more wondering if that's That's just a standard practice Or you feel very strongly That all male dogs should be neutered So you are You are doing it No, I don't have a strong opinion I'm basically just following the guidance Recommendation Of their recommendation Just sort of being told what to do Yeah Because yeah Dogs are a whole new world It's crazy Yeah My The weight on me Is basically like Giving it a home And making sure it's gonna Like be happy and healthy That's my role How do you feel about Um Dog etiquette Interacting with Someone's dog Have you noticed people that Yeah I've I've seen multiple Versions of this Yeah Maru There's always dogs and lions And things like that So many dogs So I see the people that like Come up to the dogs And just start petting it Without saying anything I see the people that Ask I see the dog that Is jumping on someone And the other person And they do not want the dog To be jumping on them And the owner is not Paying attention No Absolutely not Or the dog not on a leash Or not paying attention To the other dog That's in the room That is getting aggressive Because you're not Holding it tight enough No There's so much etiquette And all I'll say Is I've learned In the last three days Is from my perspective If you're approaching Another dog You make eye contact With the person And you're like You say My dog's friendly Is your dog okay? You have a conversation And then you let them Sniff each other's butts If you're both happy But the idea of a dog Being off a leash Or a dog owner Letting a dog Jump on someone And not noticing It's like you shouldn't Have a dog How do you feel about A rogue person Without a dog Yeah Coming up and petting Alan without asking you Are you talking Are you talking about me? No No no It's a no no I've learned this myself Because I at times Have forgotten To get permission And I've approached a dog Yeah you just start Talking to the dog And ignore the owner Ignore the owner And you know A dog can look friendly When you walk up to it But then a dog Can also not be friendly And I've had a dog Sort of yap at me I've had an owner Be visibly Be like Probably to protect me Like don't pet my dog Yeah don't touch my dog So no you don't As a stranger Don't I would say like Never approach a dog It's like Deal with the human first Listen It's like when you're driving a car And you're not sure Who's going to go Like you can make eye contact With a driver And just kind of be like Hey man As opposed to In this situation The metaphor would be You talk to the car Instead of the human No no You know You know what I mean How like Some people in cars They pretend that There's no one in the car But you can make eye contact With the driver And kind of be like Ah Can I go here Or give them a little wave Like there's like An unspoken Kind of a look Yeah And I'm like Sort of a communication Between two cars I would liken it to Between two Dog owners Slightly clunky metaphor But I think you know What I mean Yeah There's someone that I witness Often I won't say where But Does not have boundaries When I see a dog So it's not someone I know well Yeah And will just Go up to Every single dog And like Sit next to it And start playing with it Without Saying anything To the owner Has it ever Blown back in their face Have they ever I've noticed Owners get annoyed Yeah For sure Yeah And like What is happening right now Why is this person Yeah Interacting with my dog I don't want I don't want No I don't want this to happen Yeah Has it Have you ever sort of Has anyone given them A bit of a word Like maybe you shouldn't do this No No They're very nice And dogs like them Yeah But No Always check with the owner Very often As it can go wrong Yeah Like dogs I mean that's the weird thing About when you're approaching Other dogs Like you don't know Whether they're gonna What they're gonna do Yeah You don't know Yeah I had a friend It's an awful story And it's sort of a bit Terrible But my friend was walking A foster dog In New York City And it was like a big Crazy kind of a breed They didn't know What this dog's behaviour was They were walking past This like tiny little dog And this dog Just grabbed the little dog And killed it On the street In New York Yeah And my friend Who just was mortified And that was a case Of two owners Someone like Didn't communicate Yeah And that's like The worst possible outcome I have a friend in Chicago That the Almost the exact same thing Happened Their dog Oh man And I think it was The other dog's fault But Yeah But it comes back on Yeah And I think they had to Put their dog down As a result of it So two dogs are gone Yeah You know I couldn't think of anything Many things More mortifying Yeah So yeah If you were in LA And you absolutely You're serious You want this beautiful dog There's photos of them All over my Instagram It's in this episode Flightlessbirdchat At gmail.com Well let's just give out Your number You want your phone number No That's okay Let's go Just the Flightlessbirdchat At gmail.com Am I in your phone? I don't know how to Find your phone number Seems like I'm not in there I guess not Interesting Yeah Can I just talk about One other thing quickly As I avoid Trying to talk about Canada Because I know Very little Yeah I was walking along today With Alan The dog Yep Do you know what this is? Is that a feijoa? This is a feijoa There is a feijoa tree About 50 meters from my house It is coming into bloom With fruit Wow And by God Smells so good It's Canada Canada Canada What do you know About Canada? Canada to me I agree with what Hayden said earlier That I liken New Zealand to Canada Whereas we are little And shy New Zealand is Overshadowed By Australia It's huge They're louder They're more confident And Canada has America I will say Canada is Fairly large and vast though Too If you're just talking Landmass I'm talking more I know I'm talking more spiritually Yeah Than landmass Because Canada is I think that Canada is huge Yeah It's massive I mean it is an interesting time To be doing this episode Because we were both talking about Canada We were both in Toronto Over the summer Yeah And things have started To get contentious Between our leader And Canada Yes I don't even like saying that I know Our leader I know Our leader It's embarrassing Well no I mean when I was in Toronto With Rosabelle We drove to Niagara Falls Yeah And Niagara Falls That goes out Into Lake Ontario And the week after I got back Trump renamed it Lake Ontario Lake America Yeah so Renaming Lake Ontario To Lake America Which Google Maps And Apple Maps I think both Followed through on If you're in the States It comes up as Lake America They're talking about Also renaming New Mexico As well It's But did you see What South Park Is doing No No I've tuned out of that again They've renamed Their show South America It's It's really good for the new season. doing good they're on point i forget how quickly they animate that show to have it out yeah it's coming out in like a week it's crazy yeah they write i bumped into through another friend i bumped into one of the animators on south park who's been doing it forever and he said that he sort of mentioned something i hadn't sort of noticed before and that's that the characters it's obviously like all crude cutouts right yeah and they're animating but he said it's actually like they still have rules so they have a difficulty sometimes because they don't have arms they just have like their hands attached to their bodies almost and if a character has to get something off a high shelf it's not as simple as just their arm reaching up and grabbing it they've got to be honest to the character so they have to like make sure there's a couch there that the character can jump on to get to the thing yeah and he was just saying like it looks so crude but it's actually a lot of specific south park physics that go into it which i found well it is this is fitting because south park also has a specific thing it does with canadians on the show too or they're i think they're drawn in a certain style with their heads and yeah they look more simplistic than the already simple simple characters that are in the show i mean growing up and i mentioned this in the doc growing up like south park was one of my first genuinely was one of the first times i'd really thought about what canada was because that character i the kid was so specific yeah and i was and i sort of my background was oh are canadians a bit simple like is it sort of like a bit of a basic place this is my 13 year old sort of perception and now you are likening it to new zealand no it's because i've now learned that canadians are smart intelligent beautiful chill lovely people mellow much mellower than your typical american i would say yeah yeah um and i think they they have a reputation of of being very nice so nice uh that nice to the point of being almost annoying yeah you're like be a bit say what you mean which i would also say about kiwis and myself as well say what you mean yeah canada canadians they'll apologize in the sleep of things they don't want to impose is that fair i i can't speak for canada so i can yeah and i will yeah do you want to hear my cool documentary that i made i would love to um so this is my um everything you will ever want to know about canada he's in this from a new zealander who goes to toronto for a couple days for a couple of days such a short amount of time he forgets a month later and thinks he went to vancouver what better way to learn about what makes a canadian tick than to go into the home of a canadian flightless bird listener that extended the invite and i said yes my name is freddie revis canada is home for me born in toronto and grew up in toronto and a little bit of the suburbs and then came back to toronto when i was 18 what does it mean to be a canadian what makes a canadian a canadian do you think okay i love that question because i feel like it's loaded for me being a canadian is being apologetic and a little bit insecure he could just as easily be talking about my own kind new zealanders but i want to know what makes canada canada i mean i you know i think we're pretty uh closely associated with hockey hockey's big canadian thing winters for the most part other places get winter but i think canada is definitely we're on the podium of like you think winter you think snow you think canada what's your standout sort of animal wildlife situation do you have any specifically canadian things wandering around for sure so if you're in toronto you definitely know we have raccoons we have these sort of more iconic canadian animals like beavers and moose on our money we have the loon our dollar is called the loony those are like the big canadian animals those are the animals but what about the people what do canadians do well freddie is a comedian but works in a very specific part of comedy clowning how do you differentiate that from your typical stand-up or your other comedy for me it really boils down to being present and your comedy coming through honesty and physical humor i think clowns a lot of things it's also a dismissive term it's a horror trope it's become so many different things and when you say clown to someone it's like they're auto-populated with their own idea of it but essentially in relation to comedy i feel like there's some amount of physicality and expression of humor through physicality the fact freddie studied clowning is a very important part of comedy and i think it's a very important part of comedy and i think it's a very important part of comedy and i think it's a very important part of clowning reminded me that connor story from horned up hockey show heated rivalry also went to clown school freddie's in good company but what i'm really fascinated by is what freddie ended up doing with his skills if i tell someone that i'm a therapeutic clown they might say like wow i didn't know that exists or they might say oh i've heard of that like patch adams and i'm like you know what yes like it is such a like a crude comparison but i think it's a very important part of comedy but i'm like that is if you've seen patch adams it's uh obviously i'm not robin williams i've never seen that movie but um i know that is sort of weird right like you're like pause there why haven't you watched that for the record it's fucking insane that he's never watched patch adams what is your typical day kind of consistent do you have a list of clients do you know who you're seeing do you cater your performance to who you're seeing how does it work every day is a come in we have a list of consults or referrals but like one thing that i love to do is i first meet a kid there's that novelty we're starting this social relationship that starts from a different place than the heavy majority of interactions are having in the hospital i am very much like an adult but i'm also like not i'm sort of this magical thing i have a costume i have a red nose he says a big part of his job is letting the kids be in charge of what they want he doesn't just take over so much in a hospital is out of a kid's control this is one area where they can call the shots now canada has a number of clown programs in various hospitals and there are entire academic papers about the power of clowning in hospital settings in the life enhancing clown towards a model of therapeutic clowning donna collar writes about clown historian john towson who suggests that the clown's ability to evoke feelings of superiority in the spectator plays a hidden role in all clowning the clown is the embodiment of hope in the face of hopelessness and possibility in the face of the impossible stay tuned for more flightless bird we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors support for flightless bird comes from cozy earth i'm very excited about this new sponsor for the show because they came on board just in time because i needed some new luxurious sheets because i just realized i was lying in my bed one night and i'm i don't like these sheets i need good sheets and if we know anything about you you love a luxury hotel experience i do i want to live in luxury all the time and they've transformed your bed and mine into a five-star resort i'm so happy you know that feeling do you do this or is it just a new zealand thing where sometimes you get in bed you can be in naked or just underwear but your legs are out and you just sort of rub your legs against each other and then against the sheets and it's like a full body so good that's what i'm doing in my cozy earth sheets i mean my favorite thing is getting into a bed that's cold oh just feeling those cold sheets which hot summer night like we have right now in la climbing in under the covers these cozy earth sheets are perfect yeah they are breathable and they naturally wick away the moisture so you don't wake up feeling clammy there's no worse feeling waking up and the alarm goes off when your dog alan starts barking and you're all sweaty and a bit gross yet that's not going to happen in cozy earth sheets you also get a 100 night sleep trial you can try them for yourself returns are really really easy if you don't like them for some reason but you will trust me once you feel them you won't want to let them go and it comes with a 10-year warranty cozy earth stands behind everything they make because true luxury is built to last yeah i don't think any shoots i've had in the past have lasted beyond like two years i mean i'm crazy in those sheets i gotta say i'm a maniac in there but cozy earth 10-year warranty head to cozy earth.com and use our code bird for up to 20 off that's code bird for up to 20 off and if you see a post-purchase survey please be sure to mention that you heard about cozy earth right here i think a big goal for me is to start a therapeutic relationship so i find out what makes this kid tick or what is giving them comfort or companionship and then the idea is to sort of as much as possible be the ideal playmate and scale up and also we're a part of the care team so i i know to be a part of the care team and i know to be a part of the care team to a certain extent what they're going through so that's an opportunity for me to say like okay you know they just got out of surgery this is going to be really really gentle time for them or maybe their rehab's going good and they're recovering and like i'll work with a physio or with an ot or another profession to help as well as lifting kids spirits clowns are also a way to get the younger kids doing stuff after surgery it might be difficult and painful to get them walking again, but a clown can turn it into a game and make it fun. Walking down a corridor is dead boring. But what if that corridor is part of a ghost tour? Then suddenly it's fun. This isn't to say that the job isn't incredibly difficult and challenging. You know, no one wants to see a kid in pain. It's like the one thing that's just horrific. And you're around a lot of that. It's not like these happy kids who are, you know, all like cute at the end of a movie, you know, when they're all healed. You're seeing kids at their lowest in pain. How is that for you? Because I don't want to be in a room with a kid who's in pain. It's horrible. Yeah, it can be horrible. It can be absolutely devastating. There's times where I've been so overwhelmed, especially with my background. I'm very unfamiliar to the hospital culture, hospital scenarios. So yeah, it's really delicate. And one thing I observed a lot from like other professionals, it's actually an honor. It's a privilege to be there for some of this really difficult stuff and to bear witness to it. So I think as far as like breaking down or being like really upset, there's a little bit of like, I'm at work and I'm watching. Nurses do really hard stuff. I'm watching their family and I'm watching them do really hard stuff. I feel like there's this strength you get from like, wow, you're going through this and this is your attitude, whether they're sad or in pain, or maybe you would assume that they're in a bad mood. They're going through really, really hard stuff and they're not. They're laughing. They're curious. They have questions. They're very much still kids. Some of the stuff that has hit me the hardest is I put my adult lens on what is going on with a family and caretakers. Kids. And I'm almost shocked by how resilient they are. Now, apart from the fact, Freddie has never seen Patch Adams, I have to say I quite like him and I'm not the only one that likes him because Freddie is married. The therapeutic clown married a drama therapist. She's often found working with kids after they've experienced the medical system, helping them on the other side with her psychotherapy skills. I'm Caitlin. I am an American who has come to Canada. That's right. Shock horror. Freddie's wife is an American. I was born in Atlanta and then I was raised all over the place. My dad was a civil engineer, so we would move to where airports were being built or lots of different contracts. So living outside Baltimore and then a lot of my childhood was in South Carolina. And growing up, what were your thoughts on Canada in your mind? Zero thoughts. It was almost like it was just a completely different place that never entered your consciousness. What's the John Candy movie, Canadian Bacon? Yes. I watched that in high school with some friends and we were like, Canada? And South Park. That was also my knowledge of Canada. Ready Ike? Kick the baby. Don't kick the goddamn baby. Kick the baby. Wow. Ike? Ike? Kyle! Ike? Was it Ike, the kid from Canada? He was animated a bit more badly than the others. Exactly. So I didn't really have a thought about it. A lot of people would come here to drink before they would graduate high school. The drinking age is different. Yeah. So in the States, it's 21. And then here in Montreal, in Quebec, it's 18. And then the rest of Canada is 19. Americans come here to party. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I did grad school in Montreal and Crescent Street. It's all the high schoolers from upstate New York and Vermont that flood the bars. And then from grad school and the bars to clown school in Northern Ontario, where one clown in particular caught her eye. I met this man. I met Freddie at clown school. And what was your first impression of this man at clown school? Do you remember the entrance into the room? I do. At the time, he had long hair and he wore his socks on the outside of his pants. Classic trick. Like at the ankle. And I remember thinking, like, what is his deal? Like, I was so intrigued. What was your deal? It was sensory. I never hemmed my pants. You want to be tucked. I want to be like sort of tucked and fitted. And then understood that it looked a little bit weird. And I just didn't really care. I was cool. You know what I mean? I was really cool. Caitlin thought it was pretty cool, too. And they began to fall in love. Surprised to find out the Canadian and the American actually had a lot in common. I was actually struck by how much we had in common, which was really interesting to me. We would sit in the trunk of this car on drives to the lake and we would be listening to our iPods, you know, like our iPod shuffles back in the day. And we were like all listening to the same music. And I was like, wow, like you like good indie music, too. Canadians aren't these different beings. They're similar. Just like you. They're just like us because we're at the center of the world. It's so embarrassing to admit that. But that was my arc, which is, wow, they're just like me. And then their sense of humor and camaraderie and their love and appreciation of nature and wilderness. It was 2008. And I was going into my last year of university. I lived in Charleston, South Carolina. And I had a house full of girls. It was five of us living in the house together. And I came home and I told them that I found myself a Mountie. And they couldn't believe it. And my parents were terrified. They were like, you flew to a remote island and met a man at clown school in Canada and you're going to date him? She dated him and then she moved in with him. Then she married him. Culture shock around every turn. Canada didn't have Netflix when I moved here. And I was American and I was like, what? You don't have Netflix? Negotiating contracts for cell phones was, really, tricky because there's a cell phone monopoly in Canada. There's only Rogers and Bell. And I found myself a lot louder. I remember feeling very self-conscious. So you felt your American loudness coming through for the first time? Oh, yeah. It was the first time that I was like, oh, I'm obnoxious. Canada also had its hidden delights, things she'd never thought about before. I had never seen an electric kettle. And I lived with Freddie and his mom when I first moved here. They had an electric kettle. Are they fucking good? They're amazing. I can see one sitting in your kitchen from where we're sitting. I'm a convert. Do you have an American passport and a Canadian passport? Yeah, I have both. And do you get an American passport? I certainly do not. It was at this point that something quite unusual happened. They offered me a drink, but not just any drink, a glass of milk. And suddenly an urban mythoid heard about Canadian, and their milk all came flooding back to me. People, you're telling me about the milk you have here. You get milk in bags. You want to see it? Have you got it? Yeah, wait, take me to your fridge. I haven't actually witnessed this yet. Right now, you've got a little plastic jug that you bought, and sitting inside that jug is a blue plastic bag of milk. Yeah. So this plastic vessel is specific for the milk? I think so. Things could go bad if you didn't have this plastic container. When you buy the milk, is it in a bag on the shelf? Check this out. It's three bags in a bigger bag. And it's like laying down. It doesn't stand upright. It's got to be laying down on top of each other, and they're falling onto each other, and it's a bunch of loose bags in a bigger bag. So to clarify, people in parts of Canada buy their milk in bags, which is three bags in another bag. And when you take the three bags out of the big bag, you have a separate plastic jug that one of the bags goes in, because they can't just have, they have a bag of milk flopping around in the fridge. I think it leads to your insecurity as Canadians. It makes no sense. I feel like, is it we have like an abundance of milk, or like a shortage of carton material? We haven't figured out that balance. It's one of those things. Caitlin points out that allegedly, bags of milk are not found everywhere in Canada. Specifically Ontarian, I feel like. Not all parts of Canada have this. I was getting a coffee, and a guy was having, had like the bagged milk he's about to make my latte. And he looked at me, he was like, sorry, I'm not good at pouring these. I'm not used to them. Cause they're not practical. Cause you pour and the bag flops, and then the milk goes everywhere. In the kitchen, she shows me how it's poured. From what I can tell, it's all about the size and precision of the cut. Some people like two holes. So the pressure balances out as it pours. My mom growing up, she would have a magnet with a little exacto knifey thing for the milk specifically. Sitting down with a cold glass of milk, I think about how these two comedy nerds have ended up working in the Canadian healthcare system, working with kids to make their lives better. And while they tell me their healthcare system is far from perfect, they take it over the American healthcare system any day of the week. We live longer and it's cheaper. So it's kind of just a better system. I get so much healthcare, so much good healthcare here. I just had a baby and it was free. I had a midwife that was covered by healthcare and I had a year and a half of maternity leave and I'm in private practice. I run my own business. I'm not getting healthcare from my job and I could pay into a government program that gives me parental leave, which was such a privilege and not lost on me. And there's a final detail in what she just said that I don't want to breeze over. She and Freddie have had a baby. An American and a Canadian have created some kind of hybrid a hybrid that's apparently thriving. You have a baby now that is half American, half Canadian. Are you going to sort of raise him more Canadian, more American? Do you have any sort of thoughts on that? That's a great question because her folks moved to a place called Lewiston, New York, which if you're in Toronto, there's physically not a closer place in the United States. It's interesting because, you know, we're always like, oh, you'll be half American. But really, I'm like, what will he get from that? I don't know how he'll understand that or see it or what differences there will be between him and my side of the family. Yeah, we're trying to make sure like every time he says sorry, like if he says it again, we'll just be like, OK, just say sorry once and then the second time take something. Be loud and then say I'm sorry. Be really loud and obnoxious and then be like, sorry, sorry, eh? The day I visit, Caitlin's American parents are babysitting, so I can't meet this U.S.-Canadian love child in person. And as I say goodbye, I tell them that they should use this child-free evening wisely, that they should watch Patch Adams. And late that night, I get a voicemail, a review of Patch Adams. The Freddie Rivas therapeutic clown review on Patch Adams. Just off the top, I have to say that it's deeply sad and beautiful to watch a movie with Robin Williams and Philip Seymour Hoffman both in it. And you see a movie like this and it's got it all. It's beautiful. It's annoying at times. He's just taking absurd swings and fabricating bits out of absolute thin air. And a lot of it's gold. It's absolute gold. And it's incredible. He was just a remarkable talent. It's so awesome that he played this character. Really, so much of it. Much of what he does in this movie is just preposterous and unsafe. Think about my own work. We do a lot of gentle play. And the way he just busts into rooms with an absolute disregard for like whether things could blow up and go terribly wrong is fun to watch, honestly. I think clowns, when they're doing their best in a hospital setting or I guess in general, are a good reflection of humanity. And you see that in this movie. I will also add that the love story arc does not age well because he's straight up harassing this woman for the majority of the movie. And back to the origins of therapeutic clowning in North America and the real Patch Adams who's alive, still trying to build this hospital. A really big takeaway for me is the balance of using clown to transform the hospital experience and really be something unique and different. And almost reject this idea of what healthcare is and defy it. And then also there's this idea of trying to integrate, which I think I'm more on the integrate side. But the uniqueness and the novelty of clown does occupy both of those spaces. So, yeah, shout out to Patch Adams. Shout out to therapeutic clowning. This is wonderful. Stay tuned. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Support for today's episode comes from Square, the business platform that helps sellers become neighborhood favorites. If you've been into a store in the last month, you've probably come across a lot of Square stuff and they make incredibly easy to both buy things and to sell things. I'm such a huge fan of Square. On our Flightless Bird tours, we use Square to sell our merch. It makes everything so, so easy. Yeah, I mean, every morning, every time I'm at Maru, I'm using Square. It makes it very easy. I've got my phone. I just tap it and pay for my matcha that way. Same thing in my local. I'm just tapping it. It's wonderful. Yeah, Square brings payments, POS, inventory, staffing, and online sales together in one system. So business owners don't have to juggle a bunch of different tools. 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I think it's important because we were talking to a. I got very sidetracked by the fact that he was a comedian and a clown, which I loved. His name is Fred. Freddie. Freddie Got Fingered. You mentioned that to me as we were listening back to that doc. Very important. Film to you? Great. Great film. Who shaped you as a human? I just, it was big in my, at that time in my life. It was just, Freddie Got Fingered was such a defining role from Tom Green. Nathan Fielder? Canadian. Canadian as well? Yeah, I mean, during your doc, I was mostly just writing down things that were Canadian. Yeah, great. Other things. To the half listening. What have you come up with? What have we got? Substitutes. Well, TV shows. There's a lot of, I think there's a lot of good Canadian TV. The ones that jump out. Letter Kenny. Trailer Park Boys. Have you seen Trailer Park Boys? I've seen Trailer Park Boys and I like it very much. And Crave TV is very Canadian. Don't know what that is. Brought us heated rivalry. Ah, I see. It's a network. Right. Of Canadian television shows. What are you learning? Lots of good things. Bands from Canada. You got Wolf Parade, who had a big resurgence during heated rivalry. They scored some of that show? There's a song apparently when there's some kissing happening or hockey scene happening. That's one of the two? I don't know. There's something there. Don't pretend like you haven't watched it. I have not watched it yet. You know. Didn't you watch it with your mum? No, Natalie. Natalie did. Okay. Started watching it with my mum. Arcade Fire. Ah. What's that big? My six is on fire. Is that them? No, that's Kings of Leon. Oh, that's Kings of Leon. They bleed together into the same place in my head. Tegan and Sarah. We've had on. We love them. The Stills. And of course, Sanjean. Don't know Sanjean. Anjean? Anjean. Yes, you do. Who's Anjean? That's the crazy math rock band that I went and saw. Oh, my God. And we did a whole Patreon episode on David. So I just still don't know how to pronounce their name at all. Yeah, I'm not saying the end of the name because I still get very anxious. Yes. Thinking of how to say it. That's right. We got there. As long as we both know what we're talking about, we're fine. Yeah. Any other Canadian bands? That's an exhaustive list. Shania Twain? Yes, Shania Twain. We listened to a few Canadian songs as we were driving to Niagara Falls. And Shania Twain was a big hero on that playlist. And yeah, of course, Canadians brought us hockey. You love hockey. I love hockey. Sometimes when we've been on road trips, Rob, you've started yapping on and on. And you were very excited about it. And one day I might go to a game and witness it. I do like that although America has these professional sports, that Canada also has teams. They're the only other country that has teams within our sports organizations. Oh. You've got the NHL, which has a bunch of Canadian teams. Interesting. You've got Major League Baseball has teams. Basketball, the Raptors. Raptors, yep. That's one bit of sports trivia that I know just because it's got a dinosaur attached to it. So it's always stuck in my mind. Yeah, Calvin. That's Calvin's favorite basketball team and he does not like basketball. Yeah, just because of the dinosaur. Me and Calvin, we've got the same outlook. This is dodgy ground because we've got a lot of Canadians listening, remember? Yeah. We also have a lot of Americans listening. How do Canadian sports teams generally fare versus American sports teams? Do they compete well? Yeah, I don't think there's any real difference that I've noticed. Canadians hold up. Blue Jays have been good recently. Obviously, the Canadian teams for hockey have been very good. Yes. Toronto Maple Leafs, Montreal Canadiens. We love the Maple Leafs. I wish the Montreal Expos were still a team. That was a baseball team. The Expos? Yeah, the Montreal Expos. They just went away. What does the Expos even mean? Not quite sure. The Exponent? Yeah. That's very funny. They just cease to exist? Yeah, I mean, that happens in sports where teams will get sold, move to another city, and then they'll change the team name. Bring them back. Sure, sometimes. Bring them back. I mean. But yeah, well, Montreal Expos seem to be yeah make a comeback what was their logo do you remember it was an m yeah i mean it was very iconic m montreal expos oh i like that logo yeah it was it was a they were a cool team let's see what happened bring it back just for that just for that doesn't matter who's on the team just bring back that logo okay so yeah the montreal expos um they were the first major league baseball team located outside of the u.s um from 1969 to 2004 and then they relocated and became the washington nationals god such generic name they went from first canadian team to then the most patriotic american team so weird you want to know like some members on those teams feel about these massive changes you know yeah you're proud to be on a certain team then suddenly you're just like wearing different clothes you're proud to be on a certain team then suddenly you're just like wearing different clothes i don't think i don't think there's much they're getting paid they're getting paid so much that i don't think they really care it is a little bit i think it's somewhat rare that um you end up on like your childhood hometown team and when it happens a lot of people come behind it but even yeah but it's not even within like for the chicago blackhawks the iconic players um jonathan tays and patrick kane like jonathan tays is from canada patrick came from buffalo so no one really gives a shit no yeah but they've made their name on a chicago hockey team um well you've been um yapping about sports yeah which is an important part of canadian culture yes yes um i'll be doing some research into why um some canadians buy their milk in bags yeah that's which just if i did you i had not heard about bagged milk before it's fucking crazy before the new zealanders start emailing by the way flightless bird chat at gmail.com i found out that some parts of new zealand in the past also had bagged milk but it was before my day and i think it was possibly down more in the south island and i was a north island boy sure okay so why bags they're cheaper to produce and transport which translates into lower prices for consumers blah blah blah it's also convenient the bags are simple to store in the refrigerator i don't really buy that how is it bag is infinitely more awkward bags flopping around in the fridge as opposed to a carton or a bottle yeah especially half gallon that just fits in the door see okay this whatever website i got this from is absolutely batshit another reason they're easier to pour and handle no they're not absolutely not you don't want to cut cutting a bag and pouring it no okay that's some bullshit history of milk packaging in canada in the early 20th century milk was delivered to and glass bottles by milkmen we had the same thing in new zealand yeah we had milkman here and they'd reuse the bottles but they're expensive to transport and store in the 1960s officials in canada recognized that glass bottles were causing considerable waste and they began looking for alternatives around the same time dupont introduced a new type of strong lightweight and flexible plastic it was perfect for guess what milk packaging and many canadian dairies began using it to package their milk i do like that um universally there was this problem of glass not being the most efficient yes for the production of milk and that different countries just developed completely different solutions of doing it and have continued those solutions on yeah it says some states like wisconsin minnesota and iowa have seen a recent surge in the popularity of bagged milk if you confirm this flightless bird chat at gmail.com please south africa is another country where bad milk bagged milk is widely available it's sold in bags of various sizes ranging from one liter to three liter bags i feel like though like uh the potential for puncture and waste is high higher than a carton yeah or if i went to the supermarket and bought a big bag of milk and threw it in the back of the car yeah i would be worried that that was gonna break and leak and leak and one thing you don't want is milk in the car no and it was bags within a bigger bag it's in yeah it was three bags in a bigger bag no there's zero cardboard in bulk canadians they don't deal with cardboard there's no cardboard they don't have the amazon boxes are turning up in bags as well it's fucking crazy one time um is actually when i was in a one trip to america a long time ago my friend eddie borrowed my car and i know the story yeah yeah and he left a bottle of milk in the back of the car it exploded and my car never got the stink out yeah and that for me is if i was a canadian i would be deeply worried about the bag because i think surely there must be a puncture yeah i mean or they have very durable bags that these are going in but then that makes it hard to cut open and for that easy pour i mean with freddie and caitlin we did a trial pour while i was in their kitchen it's really heck dick pouring out dairy from a plastic bag and it doesn't have like the plus because boxed wine is a thing where it's in a bag oh i love a boxed wine i'm sure you do yeah glug glug glug but it's in a cardboard no it's got a vessel vessel so i don't know if you call this but then it has a plastic like nipple that your it does nozzle plastic nozzle it's got a what plastic nozzle that you're pouring it out of yes no it's a structure not just a bag that you're cutting the corner on like you're piping icing so i don't know if you caught this in the dock but what they also have so you buy the bags but then they also manufacture specifically for these milk bags a plastic jug so you put your bag in this jug that is specifically being made to support the plastic bag so it's like a glass container plastic i know but it's similar to the classic uh it's no it's just like a little it's just like a little open top thing you shove the bag in it's reusable or every time they buy it they throw it out no so you get for a household you'll get one of these plastic jugs and that's what you pop your bagged milk in so it has a sort of a structure to it but when you pour it it's still pretty crazy because that plastic is moving around and milk's going everywhere yeah that's why canadians stink because they're covered in old dairy well this this was supposed to be an ode to canada we love canadian so i had a great time there um yeah favorite meal in toronto we got mine oh my god you sent you sent me and rosabelle to an amazing restaurant what was it called cats all the chef there he came out i felt so cool in front of rosabelle thanks to you we got a reservation yeah we go in there um rosabelle's all dressed up she's looking amazing i'm just schlepping around like i always do which i think as a guy you get to do and you sort of get away with it which is a bit shitty but yeah anyway yeah the chef there was so nice very nice he was like he came out and he made me feel like very cool because he was talking to me and i could as he was talking to me i could feel other people in the restaurant including rosabelle looking up going why does you know what's why why is he talking to that man uh it was so good rob yeah thank you that is um i think the best meal i've had this year was there so anyone in toronto cats all's the the spot right no it was it was also the layout of the restaurant was beautiful yeah um a discovery that we found in our neighborhood was a cafe called dad's and they just made amazing breakfast sandwiches and the best coffee and their staff were awesome and we kind of made that our little morning home to like get supplies so i'd say dad's would be the second yes well um since i'm going to be in vancouver if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask me in the comments below and i'll see you in the next episode all of that culture and landscape and the nature yeah we named a few things we named a few i named some animals like raccoons and um what's another one raccoons are native to only canada uh no but there are a lot of them and i will know that in toronto a fuck ton of raccoons everywhere i've never seen a raccoon in the wild here in la really i saw so many of them in toronto moose what else did we learn milk comes in plastic bags we learned that um canadians can marry americans and they can have children it's possible we learned that canadians have great clowning programs and hospitals to help sick kids we learned that everyone just learned it we don't need to keep recapping no i'm going to recap i'm going to recap i want to make sure people didn't drift off and realize how many things we learned because i think some people don't remember what they learned we learned um we learned that we learned that we learned that we learned that we learned that there is a cell phone monopoly in canada between two main carriers so you can't negotiate cheaper cell phone bills there um learn about the montreal expos yes um we learned about the other team with the big m logo that's still that's what they moved to no oh no that's their logo that's them david didn't quite learn um and we learned that toronto and vancouver are different places yeah and you learned that i learned that during the documentary um and i think that sums it up should we do some feedback who's who we shouldn't be afraid of ai with your summary ability i think we should at all who needs that when you've got a little listicle at the end of every episode which is it driving you mad how much um this guy that left the ai company oh is is everywhere i feel like we should discuss this more on a patreon after dark yeah but yeah you you go and i'll weigh in i i once i get rambling about this i'm never going to stop just can you summarize what it is yeah So yeah um someone left anthropic or one of those companies recently and um i don't even know how high up he was there you know what he was he was a ai researcher yes which instantly like look at ai researcher fuck off well you're just researching are you making that you're researching it what does that mean yes oh let's find out what this ai is um and he's claiming that ai is going to kill us all in the next decade yeah no that's that's it um i am all for people starting to get skeptical of ai and agree and putting guardrails on them and if this is what does it great but the fact that this guy is being paraded around like he is yeah um some sort of genius yeah that it drives me wild it popped up on everything from um shit you should care about which is an amazing channel for um sort of breakdown news for another generation to al jazeera yeah this guy is everywhere and essentially it's an ex-employee who is an ai researcher um he looks like sort of an la hipster type with a cat he looks like what i'm trying to do cat messy hair um and he takes to x and does a series of tweets alleging that we're close to super intelligence we're about to hit the singularity and it's just sort of two things like why are we believing this particular person as you said why are we parading him around and also lms like we're not it's not super intelligence we're not there it's like insane fear-mongering and it's also other things like ai i am scared of it too and there's so many things that we need to be concerned about whether it's data centers water a million things these idiots that are running things are just making a shit ton of money and hyping everything up it's like how these different ai companies we talked about this already how they're all saying we're being hacked this is awful it's like everyone's just trying to shout about this shit and hype it up to a level that's just so frustrating well i think it's doing a disservice to actually um looking at the real dangers guardrails up about it because i think we're on the same page where we are we are pretty anti yeah about it and this this guy is seemingly as well he is saying something that we probably don't disagree about yeah ai not great yeah um but just the amount of coverage and fear and focus yeah on this one guy who takes to x x he's tweeting and yeah and i think that's a disservice to the real dangers of it if this is the person representing it and and being the whistleblower on it it blew my mind how widely it spread and how unverified all the claims were it was just suddenly presented as fact but also i guess good that now some people are thinking about it and talking about it and a little concerned i can't argue with that totally i just wish it was smart smarter coming out to talk about it which i don't i also don't know anything about him maybe he is maybe he is let's give him the benefit of the doubt but i agree the response was unhinged and insane and freaked a lot of people out in a way i don't think they needed to be right yeah feedback elaine said wanted to reach out and let you know how much i enjoy the podcast i listen to every episode and only occasionally i'm able to watch the episode on youtube i have to say i really enjoy seeing the various podcasts and i'm really excited to be able to watch the episodes on youtube props and toys move around your studio from episode to episode i especially get a kick out of looking at the jurassic park action figures and seeing what shenanigans they're getting themselves into i'd like to say elaine rob um is often one responsible for the so-called shenanigans thank you for noticing carefully placed yes thank you for noticing often in quite i would argue lewd positions yeah i think that's the point there's a lot of crazy names coming up for people that wrote in and i look i've got the most generic name we both do generic names available rob and david how boring this gentleman is called welter so it's like routable with a w w-o-u-t-e-r welter i'm not knocking it i've just never heard it before i went to college at penn state and we had a really bad drunk pizza joint called canyon that had dollar slices of pizza this is in regards to our ranch episode at the end of the counter when you get your pizza there was a giant one gallon bucket of ranch with a lot of cheese and a lot of cheese and a lot of cheese and a lot of bread with a ladle you could add as much ranch as you wanted with the comfort of wondering how long the bucket has been out there whether any flies have landed in there or if anyone had tainted it the big joke during covid was that if you ate from the communal ranch bucket at canyon pizza you didn't really have the right to worry about what was in the vaccine i really enjoyed that email from welter raven writes in what a fucking cool name i'd kill to be called raven instead of david raven writes in what a fucking cool name i'd kill to be called raven instead of david as you if i was raven farrier can you quite be laughing could you raven i don't think i can take you i don't think you as raven i could take seriously raven i can take seriously but you as raven i cannot i would dye my hair jet black yep i know paint my nails black yeah you would be like the character from the crow raven says i wanted to tell you that in high school i found out in the worst way possible that i'm allergic to ranch dressing it sounds abhorrent um but i don't like ranch dressing anyway i found out by my friends who worked at a dq what's the dq oh dairy queen i'm so glad you're here to translate these things that i still don't clock they made me a milkshake and it had ranch dressing that was the big gag um took a big chug a few minutes later my gum started to swell just such a horrific concept the gum swelling i didn't think gums could swell she went to the uh uh and she ever since has never been able to um have ranch i'm sorry but those friends felt bad that their prank um resulted in horrific her gum swelling up yeah um it's not what you expect when you prank someone with a nasty ranch shake uh chandra writes in i live in portland oh ah oregon but i grew up in eastern oregon and ranch is alive and well over here i work at a dive bar and ranch is the number one request when it comes to a dipping source i think we did get a lot of um people commenting their favorite ranch ranch so many ranch wing stop i think was on there often it was so many local spots as well yeah it's good to see the passion of ranch out there and um people very passionate about dipping crispy fries and mayonnaise yes which i can get behind that trevor writes in spout t-r-e-v-a i've never heard trevor spelt that way trevor i have to weigh in on the ranch debate i'm from michigan i've lived here my whole life i can confidently say that all bottled and pre-packaged ranch dressings are trash the real deal is the ranch made using the packet specifically the hidden valley restaurant style dressing packet in a pinch the standard packet will do but the restaurant style is superior you have to mix it with buttermilk and mayo the mayo can't be an olive oil blend or anything the standard plain mayo is best all the best restaurants are making their own ranch says trevor thank you trevor charlotte wrote in from the uk ranch is not that common here in the uk um in restaurants uh takeaways or supermarkets but i read about it uh during the world cup and so she has tried ranch in the uk at a place called petra express which apparently has good ranch chase what an american name chase if i wasn't called raven i'd want to be called chase there's a chase on the white socks is he cool uh he's from southern california and is he like a blonde cool buff with tan california oh he sounds great like i like the chase my draw i mean i do really like him but um yeah he looks like he would be named chase cool i respect that chase says i just listened to your ranch dressing episode am i still saying it but weird ranch i just listened to your ranch dressing episode and i had to write in full disclosure i hate ranch genuinely can't stand this stuff but i'm not here to yuck anyone's yum. If it's your thing, dip away. No judgment from me. Live your truth. But I do have to draw a line. Dipping pizza in ranch? As a New Yorker, I have questions. Mainly is it because the pizza itself isn't very good? A good regular slice should never come into contact with salad dressing, especially ranch. I like the passion in that New Yorker's feedback. If you have feedback, flightlessbirdchat at gmail.com. Rob wants restaurant recommendations in Vancouver. I want you to adopt my dog, Alan. Flightlessbirdchat at gmail.com. Don't bullshit us. Great emails only. And for our bonus Patreon episodes every week, patreon.com slash flightless bird. We're going to be planning that LA Lord of the Rings screening very soon. Figuring out this tattoo. This is all 2026 plans. Yeah. Over on our Patreon, we basically made, so we sort of had some goals, certain level of subscribers. We're doing different things. So at the moment over on Patreon, we're getting a lot of people there submitting the tattoo that Rob and I will get. We will choose from designs inspired from there. There's lots going on over at Patreon, so come over there. Flightlessbirdchat at gmail.com is our email. And we'll see you on Patreon, or we'll see you next week. Flightlessbirdchat at gmail.com.