"Can You Feel It" by The Jacksons

gorgeous lush lush strings let me tell you something this is this is black classical music yeah you know we've always thought about jazz in those terms but like when you think about the the drums and the we're talking about the percussion the bass the guitar and then you bring in those those vibes and the keyboards but now you've got freaking strings this lush and crazy like i feel like i'm on the tram at the universal studios like this is insane luxury in our last episode we watched five brothers from gary indiana become one of the biggest groups in america after the success of their first motown single i want you back everything was pointing in one direction but success can change a family and a family's dynamic that's right y'all this is part two of our jackson family story last week it was 1969 and the jackson five was introduced to the but today it's 1980 1981 they are older they've changed their label they've even changed their lineup and their name the band name that is they're trying to prove that they're more than just a kiddie act that's right they're writing they're producing they're making records on their own term and all the while little michael is becoming bigger than the group itself and the song we're talking about today is one of the biggest records of their career it infuses disco with gospel it's an arena anthem and it's got some science fiction in it that's right if you look around the world's coming together now to talk about one song and that song is you feel it by the jacksons fan duel is now available everywhere in the u.s so you can get in on the sports action no more than a week from today on the jackson five podcast so you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are including these places make this your most rewarding season ever with fan duel age and location restrictions apply product availability varies by market see fanduel.com for eligibility gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER i'm actor writer director and sometimes dj diallo riddle and i'm producer dj songwriter and musicologist luxury aka the guy who whispers interpolate interpolate and this is one song the show where we break down the stems and stories behind iconic songs across genres and tell you why they deserve one more listen you will hear these songs like you've never heard them before and you can watch one song on youtube and spotify while you're there please like and subscribe all right dj tell me about the first memory you have of the song can you feel it by the jacksons you know what's funny is i don't know i think for the longest time i didn't think of this as a jackson record growing up if you asked me to name two records i associated with disco in my brain it was probably stars on 45. okay i love that song and can you feel it that's serious um yeah no seriously those were the two that probably but you thought of them as disco songs as opposed to like a record by the jackson family exactly because i don't even know that i was savvy enough when this was out to know the jacksons versus the beatles like i was still just very small kid listening to anything that kind of popped up on the radio but i will say this i knew that every time it came on it felt huge like that opening bass line is it sounds like something big is happening this is a big this is an arena rock song arena disco arena funk song arena disco it's like a huge epic like monumental song i know in researching this episode we learned that that feeling that we get from that opening bass line is not accidental every part of this record was designed to make you feel like something larger than life was unfolding hundred percent i want to return the question to you what's your relationship with can you feel it so i have a confession to make which is this is a song if there's an inner circle of songs that i like i worship and i've known my whole life and i've listened to and i adore and then on the outer like another ring outside of that where it's like i like these songs but i don't think about them much the third ring would be like i'm barely aware of its existence honestly i kind of i know of this song in my mind because whenever i hear probably fight me by the way i'm about to say something very controversial no whenever i hear my favorite rihanna song which is definitely hard so hard so hard from 2009 interesting that's crazy i hear it song is so sick i love that song that's the best rihanna song come on this is the part in can you feel it that whenever i hear i think of rihanna i will be more explicit about the connection later on in the episode but whenever i hear either of the songs it makes me think of the other one because of the shared connection that we'll be talking about shortly and i love this podcast because i don't think i would have ever drawn a connection between the opening bars of so hard with can you feel it and i totally get it all right let's get into it because you know i think most people want to go straight from i want you back straight to thriller yeah they miss an entire decade you know like they missed some crucial years where the jackson five go from being the jackson five into being the jackson's last episode we examined how the jackson five via barry gordy's motown label took the r b and pop roles by storm and michael who was just a kid delivered one of the greatest vocal performances pop music has ever heard if you haven't listened to part one yet please do that i mean like what are you thinking go back and listen to that masterpiece of an episode uh and luxury can you tell us what happens to this group in the 1970s i mean basically the 70s happened so it's a bunch of hits and misses they put out more about a dozen records some are flops and some have huge hits some are big flops and i think that everybody who's like a music lover you should actually go back and listen to the jackson's albums that maybe you missed because there's some really good ones in there but there are some that actually did really really well we got blame it on the boogie we got dancing machine the robot dance is that right the robot is the dancing machine yeah that's what i know this the dance is called the robot but the song that propelled it was the dance don't shut up tell me more but like metaphorical shut up unbelievable i did not know this there's hits there's misses and there's lawsuits it's important to point out that in 1975 at this point the jackson five have sold over 60 million records for motown insane but they're only getting 2.8 royalties so they're getting ripped the heck off and by the way they're all splitting that 2.8 percent among the five six whatever nine you know but i don't know how the brothers and sisters are splitting it amongst the un the non-playing and performing members of the family but they all have to split that less than three percent amount that barry generously is doling out so they get an offer from epic records for 20 royalties and joe jackson signs that in june 1975 but they're still under contract to motown as the jackson five yeah which is why the name change happens in that year if they they basically come to an agreement like look we get to keep the jackson five name you guys can record for this new record label as the jacksons but that's why we have a name change in 1975. by the way can i always say i always like the fact that the jacksons kind of looks like the jackson five depending on how you draw the yes right it's kind of tricky a little sneaky five equals s yeah deadmau5 maybe the origin right there very nice like you said one of the first big changes is the name change and also the lineup changes yeah jermaine stays at motown uh the others leave right enter enter an opportunity for uh randy jackson the new youngest brother that's right but michael even though he is no longer the youngest brother he's still sort of the front man but randy is of course the other vocalist in this song along with michael and of course the whole the brother's doing the background vocals but he is the other lead vocalist that's right when i say the other lead vocalist he sure is treated like the other we will address that that is one of the funnier uh things that i noticed about this song exactly but think about this for one second one of the original voices of this group is gone it creates an entirely different band dynamic and jermaine staying behind isn't just a business decision he's also married to hazel gordy barry gordy's daughter so you've got contracts and family and loyalty and marriage all wrapped into the same moment so the brothers are having to grow in the public light you know right with all these things sort of happening internally and also the sound of r b at this time is changing they they decide they have to change with it let's talk about the evolution of the sound the jackson five are originally on motown and barry gordy's label is known for songs that are lean focused and disciplined every hook matters every instrument has a job when we talk about the detroit sound we're talking about the funk brothers who laid that foundation for so many hits by marvin gaye the temptations the four tops there's a musical language there that's right this is the backing band of the funk brothers you're referring to who are behind a lot of the recording sessions for multiple artists at the same time similar to what the wrecking crew was doing in los angeles for sure beach boys among others you know you've got like studio one in jamaica it's a very common thing at this time to have one group of musicians who are hanging out at that studio right now that's right that's right but with albums like the soundtrack of shaft and artists like curtis mayfield and the oj's the sound of soul is changing after leaving motown the brothers began absorbing another musical language we're talking about gamble and huff philadelphia International and MFSB, the house band that helped define Philadelphia Soul the same way the Funk Brothers had defined Detroit. Think about records like the OJs, Backstabbers. Or Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes, Wake Up Everybody. Wake up everybody. Where Motown prized precision, Philadelphia embraced atmosphere. The groove stretched out. The strings became a major part of the emotion. These records didn't only ask you to move, they asked you to be moved and live inside the feeling. And there was also a slickness. And by the way, this is really the birth of disco, especially that slick form of disco. There's always multiple strains of that. There's always multiple strings of that. There's always multiple If there was like sort of a dirtier or the South Soul version with a lot of percussion, the Philadelphia version was strings and slick and clean and precise. There are songs like George McRae that people will always point to as like proto-disco. But that's super cheap with the wonderfully cheap drum machine and everything. By the way, we're not using cheap pejoratively. We're saying that like, that's a great song. And definitely by the time MFSB is recording songs like TSOP, which is not a coincidence, it's used as the credit song for Soul Train. Those are disco songs. TSOP, the sound of Philadelphia. So it's that Philadelphia sound you were talking about right there. Right on. You know where else you can hear that evolution? In one of my absolute favorite Jackson songs. It's Show You the Way to Go. Listen to this real quick. Let me show you. Let me show you. Like, we're vibing out in the studio right now. Let me tell you, if you listen to all five and a half minutes of that, there's even a longer version. Let me tell you, by the end, they have done so much repetition, but in a beautiful, lush, and perfectly Philly soul way that by the end, like, you're, it's almost like how you feel at like the end of church, at the end of a rave. Like, they've built it up. And my vocals just keep getting higher and higher and more intense. It's just really one of my favorite songs of all time. That's a great tune. And that's exactly, to your point, that is literally the MFSB. That is the backing band. It's Gamble & Huff, but it's literally the instruments are being played by the same people that played TSOP, that other song. So it's like the Jacksons on top of, you know, MFSB is quite literally how the music is being made. So good. The sound of the production is very specific to how Gamble & Huff was making all of the records they were making at the time. So I hear it in the sound of the snare. I hear it in the sound of the hi-hat. I hear it in the reverb being used for the strings. It's really interesting, that connection. The other thing I love about Show You the Way to Go is it's the Jacksons starting to learn how to be truly an adult band. And without that chapter, I don't think you arrive at Can You Feel It? By the time they make this 1981 record, Triumph, the Jacksons are bringing all of these lessons together. They're bringing the Motown discipline, the richness and lushness of Philadelphia soul, and the freedom to make records by themselves on their own the way they want to make them. Fanduel is now available everywhere in the U.S. So you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are, including these places. Make this your most rewarding season ever with Fanduel. Age and location restrictions apply. Product availability varies by market. See Fanduel.com for eligibility. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. All right, Dion, this might be the part of the episode that I'm most excited about, selfishly, because I'll be the first to admit that I know the names of, I think, all nine Jackson siblings. I think I can name them all. I'm not going to do it now. We're going to get into that. But I don't know much about them. I know a lot about Michael Jackson, a little bit about Jermaine, and virtually nothing about Tito and beyond. So I would love it if you could break down for me the individuals behind this family band and what makes each one of them special. What's up with Tito? Well, okay. Tito played the guitar. Okay. Jermaine was usually their bassist. Randy played the drums. By the time you get to Can You Feel It, all of them are writing or trying to write songs. When you zoom out, this isn't just a successful group. This is an entertainment ecosystem, I'd make the case. The closest comparison I can think of is the Wayans family. In that family, there are writers, actors, directors, and a brother named Marlon. With the Jacksons, there are singers, musicians, and a brother named Marlon. Everyone finds their lane. And before it's all over, Jermaine gives you Do What You Do. Oh, I love that song. That's like Smokey Robinson. That's so good. Yeah, but it's also got a little bit of Montel Jordan. It's very vague what the do's and the you's are. So it's like anybody can relate. Anything could have been done to anybody else. I also did one of my favorite disco tracks, Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin'. LaToya gives you If You Feel the Funk. Rebe gives you one of our favorite centipedes. And I mean, Janet comes through with an insane catalog. So if you haven't, go back and listen to our two-part episode with Jimmy Jam, where we talk about the Control album. In summary, this is not about one superstar. It's about one family building one of the deepest catalogs in popular music. I mean, but to be fair, we've got like Janet Jackson with Janet Jackson's LaToya one and done for Rebe. Is it kind of like that? That's what we do at One Song. We marginalize. I mean, come on. I'm sure they've had wonderful lives together, but musically speaking, it's sort of an uneven balance across the nine siblings. That's true. I just think that, you know, at the end of the day, a lot of people don't realize that the Jacksons started off, a lot of them start off as musicians. Like they're not just, you know, they're not just singing. They're not just dancing. They really came from that Motown college, if you want to call it that, where you had to do basically everything. Finishing school. Yep. I think you were the one who said that most families have to figure out who's bringing dessert to Thanksgiving. The Jacksons are figuring out who's bringing the platinum records. One of my favorite things about watching old performances are like when Marlon suddenly breaks off and starts doing his own thing. The rest of the brothers are, you know, they step back and they're like, all right, Marlon, you go ahead. Everybody knows that's Marlon's moment. And a lot of people don't know this, but to illustrate this point, it's Jackie who co-writes Can You Feel It? If Bobby Taylor was one of the unsung heroes of I Want You Back, he would have been the one to say, I want you back. I want you back. I think that Jackie becomes one of the unsung heroes of this episode. Absolutely agree. And I love that it's Jackie, the oldest brother, helping write the biggest statement that the band as brothers together had made to that point with the brother who was becoming on his own, the biggest entertainer in the world. So bringing him back into the fold to remind everyone, including maybe the other family members, that we are brothers. We're a family together. All right. We're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, we're going to peel through this wonderful instrument individually. We're going to hear those crazy vocals from Randy and Michael. And we'll answer the question, was the bassline riff influenced by a famous San Francisco hippie band? Check it out. We'll be right back. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. All right. Welcome back to One Song. And let's get into the stems. Luxury, where do you want to begin? Let's start with that dramatic intro, which we all know and love. Let's listen to it in the original version, and then we'll talk a little bit about it. Okay. So my first thought, listening back to that, that's so TV sting. That's just a little, that's to hype you up right before the show starts on television. It sounds just like, and now the ABC movie of the weekend. Tonight on the CBS Saturday Night Movie. Absolutely. That's right. There's a lot in there. this song baked into the song and into the video that we're going to talk about that to me feels like an infusion of we mentioned arena it's it's a visual stage spectacular event but it's also television and live it's not a movie it's television specifically it's television it also feels like emerald city it's like you know the king has arrived yes but the fanfare it's a lot of it's a total fanfare that's why it's just vocals and horns there's even more fanfare coming later on in the discussion but for now let's listen to a little bit of the vocals that comprise that intro broken down isolated there are a few layers in the stack let's listen to them separately and then i'll bring them together so this first one i think is randy can you feel it can you feel it can you feel it at the end there that falsetto it could be blended with michael or it could just sound like i think that's just randy's it could just be randy's because they're brothers yeah okay and then there's the stack of bgvs the rest of the brothers it's a little distorted in it a little in the red a little bit yeah you know what's crazy is we don't think of any of the jacksons as having like that sort of command and baritone but it was obviously there there's something called the adults choir in the credits it doesn't have names listed but in addition to the brothers there's a bunch of other singers so i'm not sure who they are in addition to the brothers there's a bunch of others there's a bunch of others and there's a third group of others so we've got randy yeah possibly michael definitely all the brothers and possibly some enhancements from you know ringers yeah from the outside sure and last but not least we have a children's choir and they sound like this can you feel it can you feel it can you feel it and they're just in unison they're not harmonizing but when you put all three of those together it sounds like this can you feel it can you feel it can you feel it what's crazy first off i feel like there's is there any michael falsetto in there we well that's what i was saying i kind of in that first stem yeah it's randy you can tell distinctively when he's not in falsetto right that it's randy falsetto by definition it's might be augmented tone of falsetto is harder to have individuation absolutely it kind of just sounds like a man singing hi a lot of ways but i heard in there a distinctive jackson-ness and possibly michael possibly randy possibly and by the way after you hear those children now i hear them very prominently in the mix yeah and one thing that comes across is that like the song's going to talk about the whole world coming together now this sounds like the whole world coming together absolutely you hear age range you hear vocal range sounds like the world come together it's so fun also that this exists because it feels very much like and i can't back this up with facts there's no interview where this was why start now for the first time ever in 133 episodes who needs corroboration and citations throw them out the window academia who cares i do think though that they probably completed the song yeah and there was kind of a vibe like i was saying before about arena about preparation to be clear this is definitely the song that they started their live shows with so there's an idea of tension building and excitement and introness in a live experience so it felt a little bit like they made this intro to the song very similar to how you would have that cbs presents yes you know three second thing that's exciting and then you're like oh my god that's exciting musically and then the show begins it feels very much like that's what this is a sting to tease the song that you're about to hear anyway if you don't do anything differently if you're about to take the stage at the at the forum right this is what you want to hear coming out of the speakers before the lights come up 100 and it's very exciting to this day speaking of epic i mean like i always felt like this song would have been right at home like at the beginning of the old 1970s flash gordon movie which we should also do an episode about because that's like queen and a i've still never seen that you've still never seen i love the soundtrack as a queen fan but i've still never seen the movie it's insane yeah but uh the video for can you feel it yeah you just got to mention it because if you've ever seen it trust me you've not forgotten it like it's so memorable um if you go back and watch it now it actually starts with like this you know this movie trailer voice and they have this in a world he's like three octaves deep you know vocal but they would never lose sight of the dream of a better world that they could unite and build together in triumph white man from the prairie i i somebody else listened to the strings at the very top of it because it's got this oh it sounds very much like george gershwin it's gershwin it's american and paris specifically it's an american classical jazz influence from the early part totally 1920 style and then the the video starts and i always thought that that video looked like part movie part advertisement for the live stage show yes like it just if you look at it it just looks like um in a time before mtv is in charge of like what the visuals of your song yeah is the visuals of your song are i guess uh this looked like what people thought a music video could be which is a trailer for hey go buy this album and come see us in concert in fact it turns out as michael said in his own words um the video was used as the video that opened their tour in his mind in michael's vision because i believe he's given you know kind of a special credit like he was sort of the they all did it together but he did it a little more together than the rest of them michael said he wanted it to be their own also sprock jarasus the 2001 theme so i have seen that word many times i've seen that word many times i've seen that word many times i've seen that word many times i've seen that uh theme that famously opens 2001 so jackie and i had thought of combining the band sound with a gospel children's choir feel and not to gamble and huff because the song was a celebration of love taking over and cleansing the sins of the world so the idea was always epic and grand and cinematic and that's exactly i think that's very cinematic i mean it's like some of the shots of like the people coming together from around the world they're they're so well shot they actually look like modern day ai generated images some of them it gives me chills watching this footage but it's but it's it's very like i said it's it shows you exactly where cinema was in the age of tron and xanadu there are a couple of grids that look very tron-esque to me i'm sure it's just cross you know pollinating with my nostalgia you know part of my brain i don't know that it would be as effective on today's 18 year olds i don't think they'd be as like like what am i watching here emotionally taken as i why this old man got his mouth agape at the jacksons lots of fairy dust and a lot of like you know you did mention uh xanadu very xanadu-esque yeah animation stuff but it's exciting to to the child that's still in me from that era there is perhaps no more epic way to open this song than those vocals in that horn fanfare and a really fun thing for you house music heads out there you've heard this a million times maybe you didn't know where it came from in the live version you hear this that is nice my friend which of course is from fingers incorporated larry heard can you feel it 1988 one of the most epic chicago house chicago house classic of all time that's deep house children that is chicago house children it's deep listen that chord is deep jazz come for the jacksons stay for the deep house uh this would not be a disco classic without the drum so what's going on with the percussion my man that's it basic motown beat we got a little percussion behind it so you put them together and it's and then there's also a third layer which are these uh drumsticks literally you don't have to move the other one and then put it all together that is pretty much running through the entirety of the five minute 59 second song kind of makes it disco but i'm gonna say uh something here that's been said elsewhere i didn't come up with this in some ways this percussion arrangement is decidedly un-disco yeah like they're trying to get away from some of the more traditional like if this was recorded like just even a year earlier i guarantee you it would have sounded much more at home on the saturday night fever soundtrack that's a motown beat that's a motown beat the snare on every bar on every beat one two three four is motown it's pre-disco which by 1980 if you're doing a motown beat it's technically more rockish it's a little bit it's trying to step away from disco which by this point there's already been the disco sucks moment in comiskey park you know rmb always said did not change that much after that moment but this desire for artists to sort of get away from disco not be tagged with the disco label sure like these drums are a part of that yeah this is a little post disco by being pre-disco yeah because this is more of a 60s beat than it is a 70s beat and it's 1981 honestly you could put these drums underneath some of our favorite post-punk songs and they would be right at home all the iggy and the stuja songs we talked about on the donwes episode this would work on they were almost like aggressive motown drums pretty sure this is ollie brown playing drums we've talked about ollie brown before he was also on the debarge episode because he was on the song i like it go back and check out that episode for more including our breakdown where we mentioned his connection to ray parker jr he was with radio for a while and then he went on to form ollie and jerry and yes that is him in break-in there's no stopping us with john claude an extra in the video by the way i think radio is slept on can i just say radio has some great songs junior before he goes solo yeah go check out those radio albums absolutely and then there's a couple more percussion layers just to add some variety again across six minutes of what would otherwise just be that so there's some foot stomps you know what i didn't know that i was listening foot stomps i definitely heard the foot stomps i'll give you some context where those foot stomps come in it starts in the second half of the verse which we'll talk about this line feel it in the air that's where the wind is taking it everywhere so the stomps come in there and last but not least in the percussion there we also have hand claps okay we have to talk about the hand claps okay what do you want to say about the hand claps the hand i have no opinion about the hand clap oh i have a strong opinion about the hand claps hot take this is this is my take and listen i know a lot of you out there agree with me uh i feel like you know sometimes when you're watching a game you feel like the refs are like biased towards a particular team i feel like these claps were used maliciously uh oh i know exactly what you're thinking yes to emphasize the star one singer over another so randy did not get randy got the stomps he got the stops which are great the stomps are great yeah but they're not as good as his older brother michael comes in these hand claps come in and i will say we don't do you know who did the hand claps i do not have i am going to wager and you guys can tell us in the comments but i'm going to put myself out there questlove famously uh has said on our show he was like nobody has hands that clap as loud as michael i think these are michael's hand claps okay he was like if you go back and listen to cat like michael has like the way that he knew how to clap and make that shit sound like two gigantic boulders coming together i think that michael supplied his own hand clap yeah and those are really cool when we get to michael's part of the verse and perhaps it's a strong likelihood i will suggest on the record with no citations once again i'm going rogue i'm not part of an academic institution here i'm punk rock guy um in the musicology world i think that michael may have done that like when the whole song was done and he was alone with the mixing engineer saying it needs something all right guys take off that was awesome i think we need that was awesome we need one more thing to underline my vocal i'm gonna get in there and clap you know what's the problem with that's the problem with that's the problem with that's the problem with it there's so much instrumentation i'm not it's not just the hand claps i don't want to jump the gun here but if you go back and listen to the song and this is one of the reasons why we chose this song is that people on social media have noticed that at one point randy's singing and he's doing a great job he's doing a great job michael comes in and he gets these humongous claps and it just feels like everything goes up a bit and i just can imagine randy's face in the studio like randy i didn't get no claps just add that to the checklist though because you sang that reminds me that as i was watching the video what's hysterical in that video is that they've added to the canonical recorded song more sound effects for the video because as we've just you know discussed it was used at the live show before the concert begins so they're just there's enhancements that are exciting via you know effect sounds special effect sounds yeah and while michael jackson is singing you don't really hear any of them but during randy's parts he is being drowned out by like bombs bursting in air and like you know it's hysterical when you watch the video already aware of randy not getting like the attention oh my gosh hey just for our listeners can we try something can you play some of the verse where randy is singing vocal levels also a little bit under the music too good song it's a good song i love this song vocal yeah now watch what i wonder what else is going to happen the guitar comes in randy was playing with half a band we got claps we got guitars i think the vocal level is like three or four db higher hey turn them down negative one db is trust me it'll work it'll work let's put some stomp let's stomp let's put some stomps in there too for him why is michael such a bully such a bully we got stomps for randy can barely hear him nothing else is going on randy was probably trying to sing up michael's like you're you're you're you're clipping you're clipping just sing sing sing it the way you sang it earlier loud randy fan duel is now available everywhere in the u.s so you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are including these places make this your most rewarding season ever with fan duel age and location restrictions apply product availability varies by market see fanduel.com for eligibility gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER one thing about this song the bass gets you going right off the top it's that groove first and then you know the rest of the production but tell us about the bass all right let's talk about the rhythmic motif that's happening in this song which is almost the primary focus of the song it's across the whole thing and it's a little bit of a mix of the original song that we're playing i'm going to play it for you now and then i'll point out what it is this is being played by nathan watts on bass guitar interesting how he goes between the octave up and down i'm not sure i was ever where you did that so that's the main riff and what's interesting about that is that it's a five note pattern it's one e and a two e and a three e and a four e and a dun dun that's five notes so there's one 16th note thrown in there and when you isolate that pattern i was like god that makes me think of something else and then i put my finger on it it's very oh i can i make a guess yes is it white rabbit wow , i hear it now every time they play those notes i'm going to hear it so it's literally the same bass line by the way that's a brilliant discovery let me see if i can loop it in real time okay let's listen when you look around yeah that's what it is the whole world's tuning together now now now yeah yeah yeah and by the way not to sweat myself but i was and by the way not to sweat myself but i was and by the way not to sweat myself but i was looping that with my finger the whole time looping that with my finger the whole time looping that with my finger the whole time very impressed premier style that's not easy very impressed premier style that's not easy very impressed premier style that's not easy to do while singing to do while singing to do while singing 100 percent thank you i think i'm i think 100 percent thank you i think i'm i think 100 percent thank you i think i'm i think i'm one hundred one percent talent right i'm one hundred one percent talent right i'm one hundred one percent talent right there there there so right there we have going back to so right there we have going back to so right there we have going back to nathan watts playing bass on can you nathan watts playing bass on can you nathan watts playing bass on can you feel it let's listen again i never heard that drop it's a little i never heard that drop it's a little i never heard that drop it's a little actually now that i'm listening back it's actually now that i'm listening back it's actually now that i'm listening back it's a little bit there's a little bit of a a little bit there's a little bit of a a little bit there's a little bit of a variation that 16th note isn't quite it variation that 16th note isn't quite it variation that 16th note isn't quite it may not be there at all it may be may not be there at all it may be may not be there at all it may be happening in another instrument let me happening in another instrument let me happening in another instrument let me just listen there it is so what's happening is it's there it is so what's happening is it's there it is so what's happening is it's in the guitar so when it's all combined in the guitar so when it's all combined in the guitar so when it's all combined you're getting i'm getting all the notes you're getting i'm getting all the notes you're getting i'm getting all the notes but not all the notes but it's not all but not all the notes but it's not all but not all the notes but it's not all being played on the instrument but the being played on the instrument but the being played on the instrument but the overall effect overall effect overall effect i would argue is you hear as the riff i would argue is you hear as the riff i would argue is you hear as the riff of the song and it's just a cool connection and it's just a cool connection we ain't snitching so in white rabbit we ain't snitching so in white rabbit we ain't snitching so in white rabbit you're getting that same pattern or you're getting that same pattern or you're getting that same pattern or roughly equivalent and in both songs roughly equivalent and in both songs roughly equivalent and in both songs he's essentially going between the root he's essentially going between the root he's essentially going between the root and the fifth but played as a fourth so and the fifth but played as a fourth so and the fifth but played as a fourth so it's under that same it's the same note it's under that same it's the same note it's under that same it's the same note the fifth of it which is something that the fifth of it which is something that the fifth of it which is something that one does as a as a bass player to kind of one does as a bass player to kind of one does as a bass player to kind of vamp it's a very frequent thing you hear vamp it's a very frequent thing you hear vamp it's a very frequent thing you hear it a lot in in latin music it a lot in in latin music it a lot in in latin music that's just the root note but when you that's just the root note but when you that's just the root note but when you add the fifth it gives a little variety add the fifth it gives a little variety add the fifth it gives a little variety but you haven't left the note you but you haven't left the note you but you haven't left the note you haven't left the root note you're still haven't left the root note you're still haven't left the root note you're still kind of on home base yeah so there's kind of on home base yeah so there's kind of a way that you can throw in notes as a bass player to add variety but not like leave the tone center the key that you're in so that's happening in both of the songs but the last thing i want to add is that i also hear in the white rabbit rhythm in the drums there's like the bolero rhythm the bolero motif and it doesn't carry through the to the jackson song but there's something about all three songs that do feel a little connected to me because it's a very hypnotic singular motif that runs throughout the piece so there's some interesting connections there that's awesome and that bass line is doubled on at least two keyboards possibly played by greg phil and gains possibly ronnie foster who we've talked about and phil and gains frequent names that come up on the songs we've done on this show likes them see now i'm all i'm hearing are connections yeah i tell you what that sounds like what does that sound like check this out the similar envelope on that synth patch what is that that's london loves by blur and if you love blur we just did two episodes about david alborn so we are getting the same rhythmic motif the one two something something with a big with a filter on a synth actually this other synth is pretty raw and unfiltered but in the mix because there's a third one i'll put them all together here's the third synth that has more of a filter on it so i'll add the second one back and then here's the bass again so you're getting bass content from three three different sources that's why that's why it feels like a train chugging along because you got all these different bases that are like nice chunky bass lines uh you know pushing you down the party train each one has a different tone quality and kind of fills in different um frequencies but yeah that's that's going on in the bass zone so that's the main motif that goes throughout the song but of course as we all know it's broken up by two different things that maintain our aural interest a-u-r one of which is what i'll call referred to as the rihanna thing okay so we'll we'll get into that in just a minute and that sounds like this in the bass so that is the only very main the main variation in the bass aside from the primary one and there's a second kind of lighter variation i'll play that for you it happens here but that's pretty sick actually let's isolate that a little bit let's give that a little more shine so i'll play that in just the bass guitar first you get a little bit of a pop there i'll play that in just the bass guitar first i'll play that in the actual song so you know what this is it happens again here so those two things the rihanna thing and this second thing which we'll call maybe the b section yeah um give it some interest across the song so you're not just locked into that yeah white rabbit motif otherwise in the whole song and i'm going back to the bass we just heard the isolated bass guitar play that and here are the synths playing it once again the band showing favoritism to michael because it's bending along with where michael wants to go michael is in control sorry man i'm so sorry poor randy tell us what's going on with the guitars all right so we have four different guitar parts in this song and two names one of which is david williams who's also on thriller and possibly also billy jean and uh the other one might be tito so awesome play the parts i'm not sure who is doing which one but here is the first guitar which is also doubling the bass line in addition to those three synths and adding that little 16th note that makes the whole thing kind of come alive i'll bring in the bass and some synths so we have four folks doing that main motif so you can't miss it and then there's a second guitar that's a little more rhythmic with some 16th notes i'll play that now a little chicken scratch a little jimmy nolan james brown thing and then it goes into the rihanna part and then we go back the rihanna part that's the rihanna part so those two parts are going throughout pretty much the whole song just kind of keeping it live and then we have these little licks that start to enter about a minute and a half in oh wow i'll bring in some other guitars so you can hear the context oh that's great it's unexpected too where it's unexpected funky honestly for 1980. and there's one more guitar on the very bottom layer with a little melody it's like a little motif a little ostinato a little hook i'll bring them back one by one did you hear a little michael oh he might be going here comes the last guitar here comes the last guitar so all that a lot of activity going on by the way a lot of this activity starts when michael starts singing can we hear just those guitars and michael sure all the people of the world all the colors of the world should be loving each other wholeheartedly and the claps here's the only for michael stuff right take my message to your brother and tell him twice spread the word and try to it sounds like he's clapping in the studio honestly yeah damn man that's some funky stuff and it recalls michael dancing with the guitars on i want you back and abc a little bit like it's only about 10 years later so he knows what he's doing in the studio with that i'm already covered in goosebumps from what we've just heard but let's see what the keyboards are up to so we got at least three different things happening in the keys from possibly four players phil and gaines and foster i mentioned before possibly bill wolfler and one of my favorites gary bb coleman on vibes which what i thought were roads is credited as vibes so they sound very similar yeah we've talked about on other episodes maybe the roy aries episode exactly right exactly right i'm not sure which so epic right i'll isolate now what are either roads or vibes i think they might be vibes because that's in the credits gary bb coleman so epic right i'll isolate now what are either roads or vibes i think they might be vibes because that's in the credits gary bb coleman to my ears that is a rhodes fender rhodes to my ears that is a rhodes fender rhodes to my ears that is a rhodes fender rhodes um there's also a glissando build-up um there's also a glissando build-up um there's also a glissando build-up which i think proves the point that's a keyboard that's i don't think that's a keyboard that's i don't think that's a keyboard that's i don't think you do that with vibes you do that with vibes you do that with vibes i'm not a vibes player but i'm not sure i'm not a vibes player but i'm not sure i'm not a vibes player but i'm not sure that i've ever heard a vibes player i that i've ever heard a vibes player i that i've ever heard a vibes player i don't know you're gonna hear you the don't know you're gonna hear you the don't know you're gonna hear you the vibes the vibe community vibes the vibe community vibes the vibe community it's gonna come out on moss and then it's gonna come out on moss and then it's gonna come out on moss and then there's this one more thing with kind of there's this one more thing with kind of there's this one more thing with kind of an effects thing in it which i'll play an effects thing in it which i'll play an effects thing in it which i'll play isolated and then you'll notice it in isolated and then you'll notice it in isolated and then you'll notice it in the i'll play the mix afterwards That's just the sound of like the rumbling of like something about to happen. Here it is in the full production. Yeah. So I'll put them all together, all those keyboards and glissandos and all the buildups. It sounds like this. Epic. Let's hear it. Can you feel it? Can you feel it? Can you feel it? So let's talk a little bit about what's happening there. And this is for the music theory people out there. I've got a genuine question about what's happening with those three chords. Because something emotionally is definitely happening. When we hear those three chords, we've been locked into F sharp. But when we go down to what's the flat six, something we're like, whoa, that's surprising. And the reason for that is that we don't really have a flat six in any key or mode where there's a major third. So I've been doing some looking around. Question for the theory nerds. It's one of two things. It's either a scale, like an unusual one. And some of the ones I've seen thrown out there on the internet for a major scale with a flat sixth and seventh are Aeolian dominant or Mixolydian with a flat six. Or it could be a key change. But what I'm referring to though specifically is that these two chord changes, and I'll play them on the little piano here, just to be explicit. Major key would be. But what we have here, when you get to that sixth note, it's. So you'd expect those six and seven chords to be. But we're hearing flat six. Flat seven and then back to major. The point is, is it's surprising to have a flat sixth, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Those chords really affect you emotionally because you've been primed by the major key and all the years of listening to Western music and also the rest of the song that the chords would not be. be so there's one or two explanations sure just really quickly one of two explanations that it's it's because that we're in an unusual scale that allows for this flat six and flat seven or we're just modulating twice that's a it's a key change does a key change key change key change that could be another explanation there's two points i want to make about that too one is just a reminder that music theory is generally useful as a way to try and explain something but there isn't a universality about it it's called theory for a reason because you can theorize that this might be what's happening this could also explain it but the point of doing it isn't to kind of codify like well this there's only one way this could possibly be it's just to point out that there's a lot about music that can be interpreted in different ways and finally what i want to say is that this is important only because Only because there's something that is emotionally affecting us in these moments. And we can't really put our finger on what it could be. It could be a number of things. But that particular series of chord changes does something to us. I was going to say, when we were talking about Phrygian on a previous episode, we were like, for whatever reason, that makes you sort of like, oof. Like, it kind of hurts you in a good way. Sinister was the word you used, which I liked. These are the Nas, NY State of Mind episodes. NY State of Mind. I think that, just a layman's opinion, I think that when you hear these chords strung together like that, it matches the cinematic scope of what the video is. So, like that, like, that sounds bad. Sounds like bad stuff is happening. Like, they end in a happy place. But we've gone through some stuff. It's a beginning, middle, and end, just like a story. My friend, the reason why I can't wait to respond to what you just said is because you freaking nailed it. Because another place we hear chord changes. Changes like that frequently are in fanfares like this one. You're about to hear literally the same chord changes. And let's feel, your emotions are about to happen. Your emotions are about to get really altered by this. Chord change. The epicness. - Well, there were three acts there, right? It was like, da da da, da da da, shum shum. They'd be like, oh, more discovery, shum shum. And then the end, da da da, da da da da da. - A hundred percent. There was a journey in those 20 seconds. That's the Universal Studios theme by Jerry Goldsmith from 1997. - It's only been from '97? - It's only from 19, before that. - I didn't think it'd been around since Dracula. - Well, what's interesting is in 1989, so those chord changes are the same exact, that's the flat six to the flat seven, or we're just modulating. I think it's probably, that feels like modulation. I think we went to a new key, and then we went to another key, and then we came home again. - And we came home again. - But that was an epic journey, and you just described it perfectly in three parts. We're like, da da da da da, what's going on? We're going over here, then we're going here, now we're back home again. - Again, and we're saved. - Exactly, it feels like we're home and saved. The 1989 version of the Universal fanfare also has those chord changes, but it's different. Here's the 1989 Universal Pictures intro. So we're home, what's going on? We're looking around. - They show you Frankenstein, they show you Psycho. - But we went somewhere? - Yeah. Ah, man. I really want popcorn now. I really want some popcorn. - It's amazing the effectiveness of these 20-second little audio snippets. So you made the perfect connection in terms of fanfare, because these are three very brief audio snippets that take us on a journey, in the case of Universal, to get you primed for the movie, just like this song is getting you primed for the show and getting you primed for the album. It's really interesting how the same kind of musicological trick, so to speak, is used in all of them. - In a pop song. - Yeah. - Before we move on, I want to point out that in the Universal music, there's a lot of strings. There are a lot of strings on this song, aren't they? - And horns! Oh, we have the same, it's like French horns. It's the same thing. But let's listen to the horns. - Can we hear a little bit of the strings and the horns? - Let's do it. All right, so the strings and horns are all in one single track. And all we know about them, we're not going to name all the players, but we do know that the arranger is named TomTom84, a.k.a. TomTom84. a.k.a. Tom Washington. He's done string arrangements with Earth, Wind & Fire. He did Fantasy and September. - Oh, I was going to say, that's nice. Did he do Fantasy? - This is the guy who worked with the Emotions, Staples Singers, Ramsey Lewis. - Oh, all the greats. - And he arranged the strings and horns that we're about to hear. This is maniacally lush, is what I wrote down in my notes. - I think I'm going to have to do a little bit of a test. I'm going to have to do a little bit of a test. - I'm just going to bounce ahead for the sake of time. - There's that part. - So there's the Rihanna hard part again there. - It's the Michael. - Michael got his own little fanfare. - I know, but you hear with that, I don't think that's even a violin, maybe that's a cello. - That's a cello and a bass in there. - That cello is doing some overtime. Can we hear it out through the end of the chorus? - Gorgeous, lush, lush strings. - Let me tell you something, this is black classical music. - Yeah, I love that. - We've always thought about jazz in those terms, but when you think about the drums and the percussion, the bass, the guitar, and then you bring in those vibes and the keyboards, but now you've got freaking strings this lush and crazy. I feel like I'm on the tram at Universal Studios. This is insane. - Yeah, it's very cinematic and very emotional and lush. - Oh, I just want to see the Jaws exhibit now. - So those were those wonderful strings, and now for the horns. - All right, and we've got a bunch, reeds, they're separated, French horns, trombones, trumpets, all the stuff you would hear-- - He's got the whole Universal City Philharmonic. - This would be a John Williams production. - It could. - This could be Star Wars, Jaws, any of the huge hits of the moment. - I mean, we know from off the wall that he saw all these movies. Like, he saw E.T., and he wrote a song about it, like, he saw E.T., and he wrote a song about it, so he was definitely in the movies. - - Okay, so I do have a question about whether some of these trumpets are actually trumpets-- - Yeah, do they sound like-- - Or synths? - Yes. - Here's one in particular I'll isolate. When I heard this, I was like, I don't think-- I think they replaced a trumpet part that the trumpets didn't get-- - Right. - With maybe Phil and Gaines doing it on keyboards. - Mm-hmm. - I'll isolate a trumpet part that I think they got, by contrast. - Yeah. - You can tell-- there's something about it about the articulation and the sound. - There's a texture. - The texture, the tonal quality. - There's a texture. - These are real trumpets. - Mm-hmm. - - By contrast, here's what the other part is, which doesn't really sound as trumpety. - - Huh? - - It sounds like the Cartoon King is coming. - It sounds like Mickey Mouse or something. - It sounds like Mickey Mouse's Cartoon King is coming. It's a little fast. It's a little too fast for what a trumpet would play. - Yeah. - It's a little dinkier. - It's thin. - It's just thin. - It's very thin. So anyway, I thought that was fun. - You don't hear the breath the same way. - You don't hear the breath, and I wonder if the trumpet players went through their whole lives not knowing that this little chunk of their part was probably overdubbed and replaced. - Again, I always got the sense that, like, same as you, that Michael was in the studio long after everybody left. He's like, "I feel like he's real high there." - He's tweaking. - Yeah. - He is tweaking at the end. And here are some real trumpets by contrast. - That's subtle. It's hard to tell the difference. - Do you think that's real? - That one sounded, like, right in between. - A little more real, but it's still, if you told me that was a, you know. - It sounded right in between. - Yeah, yeah. - These sound real to me. Because they're making mistakes, too. They're not perfectly aligned. - Totally. - Here's my hot take for the episode. - Okay. - Maybe my second hot take. I feel like you take the horns out of this, the song might be a little better. - Really? - I like the horns on R&B songs. I love the fact that the same horns that play DuckTales are on Thriller. So I like a good horn. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But these horns always sounded like a little much, and I feel like everything else was perfect. So if I was being the perfectionist, I'd be like, "Michael, I know you want. " Trust me, the fanfare is there just right with everything else. - But once you take the song from the category of pop, rock, funk song, which it certainly is also, and it's on a recording, but when you put it in the context of epic, cinematic, sort of comparing, like, in competition with the Universal logo theme, which we were playing before, kind of more in that category, then it makes perfect sense. The same exact orchestration, but down to the use of French horns and those chord changes, or rather those modulations, I think, they're very much movie trailer-esque. - True. I think I'm more a fan of French horns horns than I am of pure trumpets. Oh, no, French horns are the sexiest horns. Everyone thinks that. And honestly, I feel like they're the hardest in some ways to replicate, maybe on a synth from 1980. They're the most special horns that are in the orchestra, 100%. That said, I was in a marching band at a black high school. I know how big this song has always been for black marching bands. And so in that sense, I'm happy that the horns got their love. We heard a little bit of the first verse from Randy and Michael, and we've heard some chorus, but let's start with maybe the second verse. Let's give Randy his moment. Here's Randy singing in the booth, an epic performance. Let's hear it. Every breath you take is someone's death in another place. And every healthy smile is hunger and strife to another child. And it should be pointed out, by the way, that Michael did insert himself into the section with the call and response vocal, which in between those little gaps, we hear this. It's someone's death in another place. He's like, I can't let you have. I imagine like Randy singing here and Mike's back here like, another place. It's a little bit unnecessary, like backseat. He's driving and then he does it again a few moments later. Another child, another child, but Randy's like, bro, I'm cool. We don't need two people here in defense of Michael. Look, we're having our fun. This episode in defense of Michael, he had just put out off the wall. It was the highest selling album by a black artist in history in this country. It was the highest selling who knew the thriller was even coming. It would have made sense that he would have a big hand to play when it wasn't clapping a big hand to play in these, in these, in these recordings, and he wouldn't let Randy forget who else was in the studio that day, singing lead on the song. It's near this time, near this time. Can you feel it now, so brothers and sisters, sure we know how. Now tell me, can you feel it, tell me, can you feel it, can you feel it. Stop it in that studio, can you pause it, can you pause it before we go further. Um, let me just give Randy his moment. Great voice. And there. Are other people out there who are trying to sound like Michael in this period. Uh, but Randy's got a great voice. And I think that, you know, I think it's cool that we're getting to talk about somebody else singing on a Jackson song. And even if he's accompanied almost obnoxiously by his brother, let him shine too much and he's not getting the claps. He's getting the stomps and he's not getting the guitar, but still Randy is technically on the track. I think Randy did a great job on this track. And so props to Randy for, for singing this moment. Uh, but with no further ado, I mean, you're talking about one of the greatest voices that we've ever had. So let's hear what Michael does once he takes the mic. Now tell me, can you feel it? Tell me, can you feel it? Can you feel it? There's one other thing I keep noticing too, is that Michael is anticipating his, he's supposed to come in at the top of the next bar, but he keeps coming in slightly early, he's I'm about to go to that again, you feel like he's like about three or like four beats earlier. Like he doesn't, he couldn't wait a little longer, but he doesn't. He's like, here's, I'm going to start now. I'm going to be a little early to the bar. Let's hear what he does. Uh, once he's done with the chorus, because these are some of the most dramatic singing riffs I've ever heard. Can you see what's going down? Open up your mind. Come on, man. There's so much drama in his voice alone. The world should be loving each other. Oh yes, it's all right. Take my message to your brother and tell him twice. Spread the news to the marching men. Who's that? Who's that? Who's that? That's not Michael. Might be Randy. Might be Randy. Did Randy come back in with a nice falsetto there? That's Randy, yeah. That's not Michael. Props to you, Randy. Good God. You almost showed up your world famous brother for one moment. That's amazing. He's like, look, you're going to response my call. You're going to respond to my call. I'm going to respond to your call. I'm going to response your call too, brother. Is there any more big parts? Here's the very end. That sounds like Michael beatboxing. It's definitely Michael. A little bit of Michael beatboxing, very early. Proto beatboxing. Yeah. I like the talk in the background. A little more on the tail end right here. Tell me, guitarist, what to do? That's great. Yeah, you're right. Guitarist picked up that little riff there. Or maybe vice versa. Who knows which is the chicken, which is the egg with that little move there. It's only been since we've been doing this show that I can hear just how heavily influenced with James Brown's style of singing that Michael's doing. He's doing that. That's exactly, if you go back and listen to what we just played, you can hear the James Brown in the way that he's stretching and bending his voice. And that's kind of cool. Because that, to me, was always just Michael's way. And I've said this before. This is my favorite period of Michael. I would say from mid-70s to, like, you know, Thriller. He doesn't, I'm a Michael fan. Please don't come. He's not doing too much of the, like, there's still a lot of, like, straight up, like, just singing. The riffs are gorgeous. Like, how there's so much tension in them. He hasn't mastered his percussive repertoire. No. His vocal percussive repertoire. But he's got little bits and pieces. But there's so much tension. There's so much tension. There's so much tension in some of those riffs. Like, you know, I'm not going to try and imitate it. But go back and, like, hear how much tension and drama he's putting in. We've talked so much about how the chords present this cinematic piece. But there's cinema in his style of singing that is just, it's just, it's once in a lifetime. All right, Luxury. Now that we've heard this epic song. How many more times can we say epic? Tell us, how do the splits break down? It's 50-50 between Michael and Jackie. The two of them split it equally. That's super cool. So it really did come down to who co-wrote the song. The two co-writers. And did they split it 50-50? It's 50-50 between the two Jackson brothers. Michael Joe and Jackie. Nothing keeps a friendship together quite like 50-50. Well, we hope you enjoyed our two-part episode. Look, we started with the Jacksons with I Want You Back. And then we sort of end where the Jacksons, they don't end by any stretch. But it is sort of a new beginning. And it's the beginning of Michael truly launching into his own solo career. They'll come back a little bit later for the Victory Tour. But by the mid-80s, the Jackson phenomenon as a brother band is kind of concluded. Just the fact that they went out on that infamous tour and didn't perform many Jackson songs. They actually just performed a lot of Michael stuff. That's right. You could argue that in retrospect, it's crazy to think that the Jacksons' career as a brotherly band together, recording career at least, was really less than 15 years back-to-back. Longer than the Beatles, but not a whole lot of time. Twice as long as the Beatles, actually. Easily enough. But they all have had some success. And we just wanted to give the group flowers. And people like Bobby Taylor and Marlon and Randy. And just give, you know, some of the. We've explained now who Tito was. Yeah, thank you. Now I know. We've heard some amazing, great songs and artistry that I don't think we'll ever hear quite again. So we hope you enjoyed that. All right, Luxury, help me on this thing. I'm producer, DJ, songwriter, musicologist, and KCRW DJ every Friday night from 10 p.m. till midnight, right after Henry Rollins, Luxury. And I'm actor, writer, director. And sometimes DJ, Diallo Riddle. And this is one song we will see you next time. This episode was produced, edited, and mixed by Eric Hicks. Engineering by Mario Saavedra. Fan Duel is now available everywhere in the U.S. So you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are. Including these places. And Georgia, Houston, Cleveland, Minnesota, Buffalo, Lincoln, Chi-Town, Arizona. Make this your most rewarding season ever with Fan Duel. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER.