Can we really make fashion circular at scale?

(bell rings) - You're listening to Region Reports for Puma. - Can we rethink fashion ways? - 1% on less of all clothing worldwide today, it's actually recycled. - So we obviously have a problem. - We need to acknowledge these clothes. - Can we get recycled? - And it doesn't sound really sexy, but it actually looks cool. - We wanna create a loop so that all clothes can be turned into new clothes. - So what are some challenges and roadblocks you guys have ran into during this process? - Oh, where's your start? - We're doing new technologies that enable us to actually recycle those worn clothes. - I'm your host, Andrew Burgess. I'm from Charlotte, North Carolina, and I am a fashion designer who focuses on upcycling. So I take second-hand materials and I give them a new life. Have you ever cleaned out your closet and donated your clothes to charity? It's a pretty common move, right? But if you ever wondered what actually happens to those clothes after you drop them off? Well, some of them end up in your local thrift shop, but the thing is, there's just way too much clothing to handle it. So what happens to the rest of it? It gets shipped off to other countries, like Ghana to be sold again. Crazy, right? Every week, 15 million items gets dumped in Ghana and get this. 40% of those clothes are too beat up to even sell. A whopping 92 million tons of clothes straight to landfill in just one country every year. That's a massive mountain of unwearable clothing and it's only getting bigger. It's a major issue that we got to start tackling. So the question we're asking today is, what if we could solve that problem? What if there was a way to recycle old beat up clothes so that not only do they not end up in a landfill, they actually become a source material in themselves? This is the idea behind circular fashion. We want to create a loop so that old clothes can be turned into new clothes and there's no waste at all. Can we rethink fashion waste? I'm talking a Simon Hessel from Puma and he knows the thing about circular fashion. I'm in great to see you again. What is circular fashion? Circular fashion is really a wide term but a simple definition could really be that circular fashion is about extending the life of a product either through reuse, like reselling, upcycling like you do, Andrew, repairing, or at the end of the day recycling the resources into clothing. So obviously we have a problem. What do we do with all these clothes that no one wants to wear anymore? Can they be recycled? In theory, a lot of textiles can be recycled today through this that's 1% or less of all clothing worldwide today is actually recycled. When you see a lot of clothing that says continue to recycle content today, at least when you talk polyester, that is usually coming from plastic bottles. And polyester is quite often used in their sporting clothing. The good news is that there are processes in place and technologies that enable us to actually recycle those worn clothes that you said to nobody actually want them anymore. They're technologies called chemical recycling and chemical recycling, at least to me, doesn't sound very sexy, but it actually really, really cool process when we can take old worn out or damaged polyester products and turn them into new products. So for example, you can take a running t-shirt and produce a new thing out of it. It almost sounds like a chemical upcycling taking the old material, breaking it down, turning it into something new, it's kind of the same thing, well, not as technical on my front, but with upcycling, taking use materials and giving it a new look. Yeah, I think it's actually a fair comparison because usually upcycling is to add value to a product similar to what you do in a room. But really what we're doing with chemical recycling is that when we're breaking it down to the building blocks, even compared to Lego bricks, you can start to build a new model out of it that has the same qualities, the same as a durability and so on and so forth, as normal virgin polyester. So yeah, it's pretty cool. That is amazing. And so recently, I didn't know much about chemical recycling. Is that a new technology you guys are developing? It's actually not new in that sense. I think it's more than 10 years old even. So what is going on in the industry is that there's more and more initiatives to scale this up and make it more commonplace. Because today is more the exception rather than the rule. What new developments have you guys had that allowed you to scale up? It's super important to say that this is not a one brand play. There's multiple people involved in something like chemical recycling. So from Puma Science, we have looked at the technology and started to look at how a process could look like where we scale this. So the difference is really that a brand like Puma, for example, or the industry as a whole is starting to say, let's put some investments behind it. Let's put some research into it. Put some bright minds behind it. Work with our suppliers. Work with our countries. Work with consumers to take some products back and see if we can scale it. I think that's one of the things that have changed since then. So what's your experience with chemical recycling at Puma? Yeah, so we actually piloted a program last year called Regert. Where we used old football kits as input to create new football kits, actually. And we had a proof of concepts. And next year, we're actually here in 23. We are launching this under refibre, which is our program for textile to textile, where we're using old garments and old textile waste and transforming that into new. Sounds like a cool project to work on. It was super cool. I think it's fair to say that people are concerned about performance products. And they're concerned about style and fashion. And then in terms of sustainability attributes, like for example recycling or soca erythene this place, that's not an easy story to tell. But that's something we've tried to make more interesting through our apartment clubs. Obviously more and more people are getting incentivized by the sustainable aspect of the clothing. But I mean, if it was not comfortable or it wasn't able to look stylish, I don't know if people were going to like it, but it's awesome with this process. You guys can completely break it down and turn it into a new product fully, right? I just wanted to sum in on that we're not solving all problems with this either, right? We're starting to address at least some of the challenges of our earnings. The fact that we can take a t-shirt like this from Manchester City, for example, which might be worn out or dishollowed in it. And I cannot really repair it anymore, give it a second life. Then at least now we have an opportunity to take that back from our consumers or look in the marketplace or take factory waste as well. And kind of use that again and build a new product. So what are some challenges and roadblocks you guys have ran into during this process? Oh, where's your start? It's important to say that it's a team sport because there's so many people involved from factories, suppliers, consumers, brands to become like a viable program, both a boomer, but also the industry where it's also makes sense economically. And for that we really need volume actually getting enough old t-shirts or products back to drive down costs. It's also an important part. Legal is something not one of the most interesting topics, but given that this is so new, we need to also understand how do we move waste across borders? Because literally when you either send something for donation and they do that it's not a long way to use for resell or you for without, it is considered as waste. So moving waste across borders from Asia, Europe, and US, for example, is also quite a challenge. And then I think one of the most important things as well is consumers. We can't make this work without consumers. So we need to play a partner which we encourage consumers to return their clothing in the right ways and want them to also make sure that they are washed in the right way. But the end of the day if we talk about recycling, we need to get the products back to us. No, I mean that's a lot more moving parts than I realize. Now you go into legal aspect of everything and it's just a lot of things that people like myself and the average consumer don't even get sitter. Yeah, but you're actually right Anger. And I think I wouldn't even necessarily put that as a burden on you and me as consumers. Sustainability is complex but it cannot be in the eyes of the consumer, like you and me. It's up to also brands like Puma to help simplify and remove all barriers to help enable a circular fashion economy. And that's something what we refer to as a systemic change. Because it really a lot of moving parts, a big shift that needs to change this course. Right. Because I mean we as consumers can hold ourselves accountable, but at the end of the day we kind of are at the mercy of big brands and corporations. We're really calling the shots how we implement the sustainable practice in but yeah, it's no, it's encouraging to hear that Puma is making these changes. And I know a big problem has been getting consumers to give the clothing back. Because obviously we have enough resources out there, just a matter of incentivizing the consumer to return it. So what have you guys at Puma been doing to incentivize the take back program? Yes, and also as part of the refiber program we rejoice in last year. We piloted a few take back schemes both in one of our stores in Germany, but also with our four party clubs. And the city as Milan must say, a Dortmund, where there is a take back bin where fans or consumers of Puma can return some of their clothing and then return a difference between clubs on how they incentivize it. Some get a reward, some just do it because they feel good about it. But really what Puma is trying to do is start small, get the learnings, and then see if you can build on that. But a question that is relevant is this something that a brand should do? Or is it more on a, let's say, a municipality point of view? Is it on a country level or even EU or nationwide level? I think that's still to be defined how we really scale this up in the best possible way. So I suppose we really need a solution that's similar to how we recycle our plastic packaging we get from the supermarket. I mean, we wouldn't expect consumers to take the pack packaging back to the store, it's picked up and recycled at a city level, right? Absolutely. So what impact has the ReFiber program had so far? I think we can divide it both internal and external. Impact, if I started with internal, here at Puma, it's marked a lot of conversation that there are these opportunities with this ReFiber program. So at Puma, we produce football t-shirts, we produce running-in, training, fashion items, golf, accessories and so on. So a lot of teams that are looking towards this. It really created a good momentum to be part of it and to further scale this up within different categories. More importantly, also, it's got the intention of our management, right? To support a program like this. I think the ReFiber program also we've just mentioned before. It's one of the initiatives that hopefully enable credibility, both Puma but also the industry to say, "Look, we're not perfect. We're not saying we have all the solutions yet, but at least here's an initiative that holds some potential to make a real impact." And then also, I think spreading the news to other brands. Puma is not looking at this as something that we own. This is open for other brands. Indeed, we hope more brands jump in more. We're not saying Puma either has invented this necessarily and other brands aren't doing it, but at least it's part of some conversation, hopefully. So what do you see as the future of chemical recycling in the coming years? If I had a crystal ball, hopefully the industry has started to scale this up even further. Obviously, beyond Puma. Hopefully, there will be more industry-wide initiatives to scale this up, all being everything from suppliers, solders, chemical recyclers, as we talked before, factories and consumers involved in this. So hopefully, it's become a more common place and have the infrastructure in place to support it. And then getting consumers on board. There's an idea that there's a value to a piece of garment and that it should ideally be passed on. And then we can enable more chemical recycling and scale. That's really what I hope. Yeah, and I mean, I definitely see a change in the tide of the general public with their awareness on sustainability. And I definitely think in the coming years, we'll all become more aware of how we can do our part. Absolutely. And I think I would just draw parallel to what you're doing in your end. Like, on the upside-down carbon and chemical recycling that we're talking about today is part of the pill puzzle, right? When we talk about sustainability and circular fashion in general, there's so many different avenues. The recycling part. So this is only the last option we should. Because extending the life cycle of a product is the most sustainable thing you can do. Resel your garments or donate them or repair them, upcycled them, reuse them in another way. Is it important? Yeah, absolutely. You just gave a lot of good advice as far as what we can do as consumers. And I also think it's important to add that, you know, just to be more mindful when you are shopping. And it's not like every single thing you purchase has to be 100% recycled or from a secondhand shop. But you're not wanting to buy these cheap, low-quality pieces that you don't see yourself wearing in the next five years, you know? So just be more mindful and buy better quality things. We're not just going along with trends and micro trends even. I agree with you. I agree. It's not to say that we can expect all consumers to look for, is this t-shirt chemically recycled tomorrow? It's not where we're necessarily expecting consumers to go. But at least that people are at least trying to start small and make theirs next purchase a little bit better than the previous one. Consumers can work with their wallets, right? So then it's down to the industry and brands like Puma to see if we can fulfill that. Well thanks for joining us today, Simon. It was a pleasure talking to you. Sure. Thanks for having me, Andrew. It was a pleasure to talk about circle of fashion. So I know that's a lot to take in. There's a lot of moving parts in the chemical recycling process. But as someone who dresses sustainably and considers the afterlife of my clothing, it's really encouraging to see the industry make these steps into chemical recycling and scaling up the process that's accessible to consumers worldwide. So even when you're buying clothes, just consider the afterlife and that even when you're done with them, they still have value. You've been listening to Region Reports for Puma. If you like today's episode, please share it with your friends. There are 10 episodes about different aspects of the fashion industry. From women's rights to climate action, find them all by following Region Reports wherever you get your podcasts. Puma publishes all of its progress, challenges, and setbacks in its sustainability report. You can find the 2022 report online now by going to about.com. There's only one forever. Let's make it better. [BLANK_AUDIO]