Can the Cavs Close Out? Plus: What's Next for LeBron, Giannis Is Being Shopped, and Spurs-T-Wolves Game 6

Coming up on the Zach Lowe show, whoa, it's an off day. There are no games tonight. We're going to talk with Howard Beck about Piston's Cavs. What an ending. Controversal. No call. No foul. A star Thompson falls over. Maybe he got tripped. Maybe he didn't. Was it the right call? Was it the wrong call? In overtime. The Cavs. Once down, 2-0 and looking hopeless. Take a 3-2 lead going home for game six. We talk about what's changing the series. What adjustments might have to happen for Detroit to stay alive. What Cleveland has still to play in its deck of cards and Jalen Duren, it's not going great. Talk about all things off season. I just got back from Chicago. We talk about some draft lottery buzz. Lakers eliminated. What's next for them? LeBron James. What teams he going to play for? What about Austin Reeves? Talk about Darryl Morrie being out in Philadelphia. Was that the right call? What went wrong? Where did the sixers go from here? What went right? All of that in Beade, Paul George, the whole thing and then we wrap it up with Spurs, Timber Wolves coming up game six after an emphatic Spurs win in game five. What can the Wolves do to get back in the series? Then obviously it was a very somber week in the NBA, Jason Collins and Brandon Clark. Just awful news. We reflect on that a little bit. It's all coming up on the next episode of the Zach Lo Show. The Zach Lo Show is brought to you by Fan Duel. It's been a wild playoff run, but it's not over yet. And Fan Duel wants to bring you closer to the court to make more of all the action to come. Fan Duel is the best place to bet the teams, the players and plays during the NBA postseason, build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try lie betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the Fan Duel Sports Week app now and play your game. Twenty one over and select states 18 or over in DC Kentucky Royale Man gambling problem called 1-800 gambler called 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. Welcome to the Zach Lo Show and it's been a long time since we've said the three most anticipated words in niche basketball podcasting. What up Beck? Oh, what's happened Zach, good to hear the three anticipated words it has been a while mostly because my schedule is screwy. It's my fault. I blame me. And let me just say it's just an incredible honor to be in the presence of a certified West Chester 7. I don't know where I would rank on that scale. I can't believe you're wearing this shirt. I was going to make reference to this regardless because I couldn't wait to finally be able to do this to you. I texted you. The joke. You ignored it. I have you have you alluded at all on this pod to your start turn? I talked about it. I talked about it. I'm hanging with OG during the day on your friends and neighbors. My wife made me this shirt. She forcefully suggested that I wear it on this podcast and so I am obedient and wore it. But anyway, she's right. The offers are the scripts are rolling in. You know, I have a team sifting through them. I'm really wary. I don't want to be type cast as Zack Low basketball person. I think I have a lot of range. There's a lot of buzz building, Howard. That's all, you know, I don't know where it'll lead, but there's a lot of buzz. I'm just afraid of where I would rank on that West Chester scale. I don't want to know, frankly. And I think if I had a cameo, they'd have to be like groundskeeper with a lot of equipment on just to like shield me from the groundskeeper is always a suspicious character. Okay. Anyway, there's a lot going on in the NBA. I just got back from four days in Chicago, shmuzing and boozing at the combine. I have a lot of intel, a lot of stuff to share. We'll get to that in the middle of the podcast, but we have two conference semi finals with massive implications still ongoing, both at three to we have an off day today. What's going on? There's no games today. They both resume tomorrow Cleveland Detroit, all the swings of the playoffs. And this was two O Detroit in my notes. I have a Google doc for every series. I if you did control F for the word unserious, it would probably appear 25 times in regards to things the Cavaliers did in the first two and a half games of this series, just horrendous turnovers, complete lack of communication, seemingly no clue what they wanted to do unoffence. And obviously the defensive struggles that have plagued them, not I mean, not plagued them, but they've been an average defense all year. And you start thinking about, you know, the implications of if they lose this series, Donovan Mitchell extension eligible. Do they trade one of the bigs James Harden has a player option? Like what would the Kaz even want? Just hey man, opt in. We don't want to do this anything long term, LeBron in Cleveland and then bam, the calves, the redemption of James Harden, Donovan Mitchell has 39 points in one half of basketball and some controversy in game five and Detroit, the Cavaliers finally remembered. You are allowed to win on the road. They have won three games in a row. They are up three to two. And think about the implications of if they were to win this series. Do they go out as a potential young as a tentacumplow shooter? Do they go out as a potential LeBron James shooter? We'll talk about Brown later. Does James Harden sign like a one plus one or a two year deal with the calves? Is everything hunky-dory because this has turned around so much that this is what happens in the playoffs. The fates of franchise is swing in two game spans. But let's talk about the end, Howard Beck. Yes. I'm just going to tee up Thai game, James Harden dribbling around, dribble, dribble, dribble, gets inside and a Sartonson makes his, I don't know, I'm just going to estimate, 42nd, deflection, block, whatever of the game, ball goes loose, collision, some sort of collision between a Sartonson and Jared Allen on the sideline, ball goes out of bounds, buzzer sounds, no call, JB Bigger staff enraged, every coach enraged all the time at the officials. Your take, Mr. Beck on the controversial no call, leaving the pistons by the way and their fans for the second consecutive year feeling burned by an end of game, no call in a pivotal game last year was game four against the Knicks when Josh Hart fouled Tim Hardaway Jr. on a three did not get called for the foul this year, it's this, your take, Mr. Beck. In real time, I was, I think I had the same expression of my face as a Sartonson did, which was what, wait, hold on, there's nothing and then I wait, okay, you know, sometimes you see the replay and you go, ah, okay, maybe it wasn't as, the impact wasn't as big as I thought it was or there was some other circumstance, maybe I missed something, I don't know, man, I've rewatched it like 15 times, it still sort of looks like a foul to me. The poor port with Tony Brothers was interesting because he just kind of dismissed his incidental contact and the really interesting part and I don't think I've seen this in all the years that we've had the poor, poor ports, which has been forever, frankly, but I don't think we've seen this specific reference, which is Cody Davis of the Detroit News follows up and says so, so he asks about it. Tony Brothers says during life played, both players were going for the ball and there was incidental contact with the legs, no player having possession of the ball. So no foul should have been called Cody S, Tony Brothers, no, there was incidental contact on the play. The play will be reviewed by the league office tomorrow and it will be posted in the L2M. I don't think I've ever seen a referee, much less one of Tony Brothers's vast experience and seniority kind of dismiss the follow up question as listen, man, it's going to be covered in the last two minute report and we'll see what the league says then. Like, I don't know what that, that's hinting at like less than conviction or just dismissiveness. Like, I think I'm going to see I'm going to be validated. I think it's him saying I made this call, I stand by it, because of the time and score, it will be reviewed. Go read it tomorrow. See what the league thinks. Yeah. First of all, on Tony Brothers, it's, it's Joe Kim no his fault. Joe Kim no came on my podcast a couple of years ago. We talked about referees and Tony Brothers and he calls Tony Brothers catfish because he thinks he looks like a catfish and I just can't unsee it now. It's just, he's just a catfish talking and doing the reviews. I can't unsee it. It's Joe Kim no his fault. So I, I'm fine with the no call. That's my take. I'm fine with it. I'm not even sure it was a foul. So I've zapped. I've watched it in slow mo like 20 times. Leg says on the call Jared Allen's foot hits a Sar Thompson's foot. That's the first contact. The first contact between them is actually a Sar Thompson's off arm on Jared Allen, which I don't think should be a foul either and it's a pretty like contact. And I don't think Jared Allen's foot hits a Sar Thompson's foot so much as both their feet hit the ground at the same time and they hit the same sliver of the ground at the same time. And then it's hard to tell how much contact there is after that. Yeah. I think it's innocent. No contact. I think it's a good no call. I'm fine with the no call. And by the way, if you want to play this game, A, you had a nine point lead with three minutes left and you collapsed. B, you had an absolutely inexcusable turnover after a Donovan Mitchell three and overtime where Max Drew's pick sick picked Kate Cunningham and Donovan Mitchell got a layup. C, your starting center who's going to make it all NBA team was benched for the last 18 minutes of the game for Paul Reed and is as averaging nine points a game on 46% shooting in the series. This jail and Durham thing has reached a full on crisis point for the we talk about offseason implications of the pistons, potentially losing this series this way. It feels like he's losing a million dollars a minute in this series. I'm not. and the pistons need for a secondary creator, which they did not address at the trade deadline, is even more urgent, and will like 100,000% be addressed somehow in the offseason. So that's that, and like, if you actually zaprooter this play, Kate Cunningham is grabbing Evan Mobley's jersey while James Hardin is driving to the rim, and like, that should be a foul too. I don't want it to be a foul, but I am actually completely fine with the no-call, and I'm gonna predict it's 11 in the morning. I'm gonna predict the last two minute report validates Tony Brothers, and then everyone in the trade will say, well, of course, the last two minute report will validate Tony Brothers. By the way, also in overtime, James Hardin misses three free throws out of six as the calves are trying and failing to ice the game, and on one of them with 22 seconds left, gets his own rebound. And by the letter of the law, James Hardin commits a lane violation. He has a foot in the lane when the ball is just about to hit the rim. It's not called, Pistons fans are mad about that. By the letter of the law, they are correct. It's a lane violation. The calves are up by three at that point. There are more egregious lane violations than that by foul shooters every single game. Donovan Mitchell famously committed one on missing his own free throw on purpose last season, I think, and put it back in maybe two seasons ago. That's never going to be called. It's barely a lane violation at all. You shouldn't be whining about that, and you should box out the shooter on a clutch free throw. So I'm actually good with the no call. I saw Perk and Stephen A arguing about it earlier today. Stephen A called it in egregious mistake by the referees. Perk said he was okay with it. I'm team Perk, and I certainly don't think it was egregious. - When you first teed it up, I was debating which order to put this in. I was going to do my usual speech first, and I didn't, I went straight to the call. But my usual speech on these things is, if you've blown a nine point lead, if you've completely botched several other key sequences when you got to over time, you don't have any real standing to make this about the one call. - Leave catfish alone. - It was a close call. I think by definition it was incidental contact. Whether it's incidental contact and a foul incidental contact and an appropriate no call, people can debate. What we can't debate is that Detroit Pistons had every opportunity to put this game away, a thousand other ways. And if you want to blame that call, it sounds a little hollow compared to all the things that you had in your control. So I was going to do the speech first, but I, there it is. - Can I add on to your speech? - Yeah. - In the last 10 days, we've had JB Bicker staff complain about a free throw discrepancy, which is significant. Cleveland is taking 34 more free throws than Detroit in the series. Any complaints specifically about Donovan Mitchell shooting, I think 15 free throws in game four. After Donovan Mitchell shot like no free throws for two straight weeks. By the way, JB Bicker staff, you know where your team ranked in opponent free throw right for the season? 30th, last. You foul all the time, just like forget it. We've had Mitch Johnson say something to the effect of like I'm not sure any superstar has a worse whistle than Victor Wemba Nyama. When Victor Wemba Nyama reacted to that was by nearly decapitating Nasrid. Absolutely outrageous that he didn't get fined for that. By the way, I didn't expect him to get a suspension. I went through the precedent on the last episode. It's blurry and I'm completely fine with no suspension to not find him. And I understand it's a symbolic gesture at best. Make the symbolic gesture. Absolutely outrageous, they didn't find him. But Mitch Johnson makes that complaint. JJ Reddick complains that LeBron James has the worst whistle in the entire NBA. Here's the thing coaches, your superstar, every single best player on all 30 teams by definition could not have the worst whistle in the NBA. There can only be one worst whistle in the NBA and it's not your guy and stop fucking blaming every single loss in the playoffs that you have on the officiating. I understand that officials make mistakes. They're not perfect. I understand that you're really just publicly lobbying and hopes of getting a favorable caller to the next game. I get all that. You know what, take some freaking ownership of it. Go back and say, what could we have done differently? What schemes could we're going to talk about adjustments coming up? I'm just sick of like, we just go through this cycle of these coaches become like children in the, they become like little league coaches in the playoffs. There's no other reason we lost except we have to bitch about the officiating every game. I'm so tired of it. Every star, every star. I'm waiting, I'm waiting for JB Bickerstaff to say Kate Cunningham has the worst whistle in the NBA. I'm waiting for Mark Dagnall to be like, you know, who has the worst whistle in the NBA? Actually, shake out the sound or he gets the worst whistle in the NBA. Everyone gets the worst whistle in the whole league. Love that, all fair. I'm going to yes, but this particular rant. Yes, but I kind of enjoy the fact that in the post season we have a long story tradition of coaches unsuccessfully, almost entirely unsuccessfully bitching about these things in the attempt to influence the next officiating crew that had nothing to do with the previous officiating crew. And if they're listening at all, they're probably sitting there going like, yeah, dude, I've got no sympathy for you. Sorry, my colleagues in the last game actually got it right. Like, it doesn't work, but going all the way back to Phil Jackson versus Jeff Van Gundy and I think Riley Chuck daily, all of them. Like, there's a long story tradition of trying to work the refs after the fact in playoff series, hoping that you get a more, you know, and then, you know, not to mention all the off day sending of tapes to the league office of, here's all the three second violations you missed. Oh, and here's all the moving screens, illegal screens that you missed. Like, it's fine. It's kind of part of the theater of the post season. I'm okay with it. I told you, we talked probably a couple months ago that I had a coach reach out to me about the epidemic of push-off fouls in the NBA, which has become a talking point because of S.J. and Jalen Brown and on and on, and just how outrageous it was and this and that, and my reply to the coach was like, I want to see your reaction when your guy does it because I don't think it's somehow I don't think, and this coach has a guy who does it, I don't think it's going to be as vociferous when your guy gets away with it as it is right now. So anyway, enough that. It's three-two Cleveland. The total score in the series, by the way, Howard Beck, is Cleveland has 543 points, and Detroit has 543 points. We have a perfect plus or minus zero, and now Detroit has to win in Cleveland to prolong the series. I picked Caves in seven. I don't know if you made a pick. I have never felt worse about a pick after two games than I did after the first two, absolutely disgusting performances by the Caves, but they've been, and I do have to say, like as ugly as it looks for them, I did have to sit back or am I myself. Toronto in the first round was the number five defense in the NBA, and a very difficult defense to play against, a unique animal of switching and all that stuff, and this is the number two defense of the NBA, and you do have to give the Caves credit for, there's a little, this series has become like a little bit of a beautiful struggle, like nothing is easy for either of these teams, and even when the Caves get the ball moving, which they have finally done in the last couple of games by leaning into Evan Moby, pick and rolls, and letting the ball move a little bit, they gotta make like three, four, five pass drive, pass drive, pass drive, a little slip pass, like Detroit is rotate, both teams, like even James Hardin's rotations off the ball have been pretty solid for the most part. Like the teams are having to dig really deep with the ball, just to get okay, looks on offense, and there's a little bit of beauty in that, and you wanna pinpoint the ugliness and all that, but I think you have to give the defense as credit, and the Caves of Phase Two really elite defenses, and they have found a way to be up three, two in this series, and now I think Detroit has a lot of questions to answer. How does Jalen Durn recover from what just happened in game five when, and Isaiah Stewart too, when when JB Bigger staff is like, the best two-way center on our team right now is Paul Reed, who is not even in the rotation for a lot of the season. Jalen Durn and Sartonson, that duo for the series, is minus 34 in like 100 minutes or whatever they've played. And it's this yin and yang with those guys of like, they're defensively, the pistons are incredible, with a Sartonson on the floor, and any of their centers really, and offensively the spacing is just a little rickety, and I think like the Caves could probably get away with trapping Kate Cunningham a little bit more, when they're letting Kate Cunningham pick out, like I want hard and I want Mitchell, and he's like eating on that stuff. He was outstanding again last night, the shop making is outrageous, but they have not done the thing that Orlando did, which is we're gonna take Durn out of the series by switching everything, we're gonna go under on Kate and switch everything, and you're not gonna roll to the basket. They've not done that, they're either switching their guards on Decade, which we'll talk about, or with their Bigs, kind of putting two on the ball, and you think, well, Orlando had this blueprint for you, and you're not following it, and I think one of the reasons they're not following it is because when they have two big guys, Moby and Allen on the floor, they're huge, they have one huge guy still waiting on the back line, and they're like, we can put two on the ball with Kate, and rotate around with our size, and they're lack of shooting, and put a stop to whatever else is going on on the floor. And so far, I gave Kenny Atkinson a lot of credit, he stuck with that, he stuck with his starting five, which was pretty maligned, and now that lineup is plus 15 for the series, and yeah, I'm just interested to see, like does JB have the guts to make a line up change with the season on the line in game six? I don't even know what it would be. I it would probably be Durin, but um, starting Paul Reed with your season on the line would be quite a move. Um, I'd be shocked. I think that's, um, I understand why he rode with him down the stretch. And I think that's, that's hard enough. And it's hard on your young player. It's, it's, I have to keep reminding myself Jalen Durin's only 22 because he looks older and it feels like he's been around a while and he's already had his breakout. And, but he's only 22. And I, I think going into a critical game, uh, you know, an elimination game and benching your young star who's, who's heading toward restricted free agency, who's restricted, right? Yes. Um, no extension was reached. He's restricted. And if he makes all him, he's going to be super max eligible, which is going to be a very, as I said before, I don't think we've ever had a player in this age range, like coming off a rookie scale that was eligible for the bump and not only didn't get it, but his team was like, we're just going to ignore that completely because we don't think you're worth the super max. I think that's what's going to happen. Well, another thing that hasn't happened or has happened very rarely is that somebody who was an all star and again, likely all NBA will hear those results. I would think soon ish. The NBA has been waiting for openings in the schedule to, yeah, we're doing the award show again. Remember the NBA or the short wait. The short lived NBA Oscars in like September when they would hold all the awards for that. One of the worst ideas of the entire Adam Silver era. Um, no, what they're doing is the NBA. I, um, I get tweaked by the NBA for asking this because I think I asked every year, like, how come you guys are, why we have this long gap? And it's the same explanation every time I will commit it to memory NBA and so I will not bug you anymore. They wait for more off nights in the schedule. So like tonight could have been a night, but they don't want to do it on nights when there's games going on. They want to do it in a gap. So we'll get back to MVP and all NBA and everything that that's still left on the table. And Dern will probably be on there. But Dern is the rare player. All NBA all star who has had his production drop off by like basically 50% from regular season to post season. There's various ways of slicing this up. But this is a historic ish. Um, drop off in production. It's just, it's, it's baffling. Um, you know, our colleague Brian Curtis likes to joke about the now you tell me, you know, stories once the season's over. I hope it's not one of these. You know, occasionally we get the, we, you find out a guy was playing through some sort of injury that hadn't been disclosed or there was something in their personal lives going on what I hope it's none of those things. But I do wonder if we're going to find out a week from now that, you know, Jalen Duren had something else. Um, because if it's not that is this just young player Dern headlights kind of thing. I do think it's worth reminding ourselves how young and inexperienced this Pistons team is in that. And I think I mentioned this in the story I wrote last week about the weird first round and some of the results. The Pistons went from a 44 win team that was a six seed to number one and a 60 win team without ever having won a playoff series. Yeah. The magic, their first round opponent who may well, I would say probably would have beaten them if Franz Wagner knock on her, had a higher over underlying going into the season than the pistons did. Yeah. And we're a more popular pick to be one of the top four seeds in the East. The pistons, nobody had them top four and much less number one. They had never won again worth emphasizing never won a single playoff series before they became a 60 win team. Then they won their first playoff series, you know, a week and a half whatever it was ago. And it was a struggle. And here they are. Like they really don't have a lot under the belt. And the put the playoffs, as we always say, exposes all of your flaws, the things that we're talking about now are the things we were talking about all season about lack of secondary playmaking and lack of shooting. And oh, you could cut it either way about Duncan Robinson's absence last night. Was it, you know, they really could have used another three point shooter out there or just somebody else to put the ball in the basket. Or did it actually help them because, you know, the Cavs would just be relentlessly attacking him anyway. Slice they either way, but they just don't have a lot to fall back on. And yeah, all those blemishes are being exposed in the series at times. And by the way, I really like Tobias Harris a lot. And he's been great for that team. But that was just way too much Tobias Harris last month, but way too much Tobias Harris has been good for their offense for the entire playoff. Because it's if it's not him, it's way too much carousel of hurt and Paul Reed, who almost won them game four. But it's just a horrible moment last night too in this. So it's it's collapse. Oh, yeah. Well, it's got it's got it's got to be way too much someone. And let's talk about Duncan Robinson because I do think his absence was massive for the pistons. And like I think I'm both ends of the floor. And that's going to sound counterintuitive because obviously the Cavs are hunting Duncan Robinson. Like a lot of teams do. And offensively, it speaks for itself, right? Like he's there a plus plus shooter. Kevin Herder was their trade deadline, sort of acquisition to help that and played three minutes less. And he's coming off injury. They just they start Dennis Jenkins. It's just the decline in their shooting is enormous without him. But I just think like almost paradoxically, I've been saying since the beginning of the series, I just just Cleveland is just over complicating things on offense. Just use your big men in pick and roll and like get the ball moving. And they fall into this trap instead of like where's Duncan Robinson? We want to hunt Duncan Robinson. And James Harden for the most part, other than really down the stretch in game three when he was massively clutch and made three huge shots in a row has really not been able to beat Duncan Robinson off the dribble. And when he'd hunts him and just dances with him and the two bigs are on the floor, just taking up space. I think that's good for the pistons. Now when Don have a Mitchell hunts Duncan Robinson, it's not good for the pistons because Don have a Mitchell can blow by him. But with Duncan Robinson out and that sort of temptation removed, the calves accelerated what they were already doing, which is we're just going to run the simplest most basic stuff in our offense. We're going to run hard and mobility pick and rolls with shooting around it and Jared Allen in the dunker spot. And we're going to see if you can defend it. Evan mobility set 31 balls, 32 ball screens last night, Howard Beck. That's the most he's ever set in any game ever, according to the tracking data. Number two was game four, 28 ball screens. And it's working like Tobias Harris is coming up to the level of the screen. And the pocket passes there and Evan mobility's distribution out of that has been awesome. He's finding shooters. He's finding Jared Allen. And when the floor is really clear, when only one of the bigs is on the floor, the reads get even easier for him. And I think that's just Cleveland's best offense in this series. And they've really leaned into it. They've also leaned into he ran as the ball handler Evan mobility 15 picking rolls last night as the ball handler. That's his also number one in any game he's ever played ever according to the tracking data. And so they've really leaned into using him as a fulcrum. And I'm very interested to see how Detroit adjusts to that in game six. I'm not really sure what their adjustment is. You'd be tempted to put a sar Thompson on him and switch a little bit more. But that means Tobias Harris is guarding someone that Tobias Harris should not be guarding like strews or don't have a Mitchell or something like that. But I think that's been a very smart adjustment that they amped up last night because Duncan Robinson was not there to go. I still think they need Duncan Robinson. And by the way, last thing I'll say before I flip it to you and you can say whatever you want. Like these series change fast. And when a team seems dead, they're suddenly not dead. And both of these teams have seemed dead multiple times Detroit has already shown us they can go on the road and win a game six with their season on the line and come back and win game seven. So a Cleveland has not exactly bought like an enormous amount of faith credits in my brain about like, well, yeah, of course Cleveland's going to win one of two games. We'll see. I think this series is still open for the pistons for sure. My last note on that is is we have had kind of this alternating ever since Harden got there. This, you know, sometimes it's a hard night and since it's a Donovan Mitchell night. And you know, there are times I think we still wonder about, you know, the not the compatibility, but whether how much synergy there actually is there. And so post game, Lisa Salter's asked James Harden about maybe Donovan Mitch, you taking over this time. Donovan Mitchell got you guys last time. It was your turn tonight kind of thing. And Harden said something to the effect of like, yeah, Donovan said he was exhausted from the last game. The interesting thing to me about that was that just before that interview, Donovan Mitchell and James Harden, you could see them talking to each other, you know, as everybody celebrating the win. And it looked like Donovan Mitchell kept saying to Harden, I got you, I got you. And so I reverse engineered that after the Lisa Salter's interview thinking, I wonder if that was the, you got that one. I got this one. You're turn next time now. I'm exhausted. I don't know. It is interesting. Like I do think there is a little bit of that. It's not my turn. You're turned by possession, but it seems to be sometimes game to game. Well, it's funny. You know, I mentioned before how these turn and the beauty of the struggle and all that in these ugly, soggy series. You do, you do learn about yourselves. A team learns about itself when it's really pressured in these playoff environments. And Cleveland was down to O and given their postseason history, given that they have been physically bullied by bully teams like the pistons before and like mostly the nicks, it was very interesting to see how they would respond. And then they go up what 17 I think in game three and the pistons erase the entire lead. And you're like, Oh boy, is this how it's going to end for the caps? Are they going to let go of the rope? And they don't let go of the rope. Evamobile starts playing with more force and more well-roundedness to his game. James Harden and Donovan Mitchell, he's had games like this before. There was one like a month or so ago at the end of the regular season when he did nothing in the first half. He had like no points. Harden did everything. He stood off to the side. And then he just came out of the locker room and it clearly decided the third quarter is me. I'm taking over the game. I don't really care if that's not how we played in the first half. I don't really care that we got James Harden here. He's like a point guard extraordinaire. I did nothing. I'm taking over. And then he did that in game four, he had 39 points in the second half, just unbelievable performance. And you just wonder like it's great that he could access that and you learn something about yourself. This is a guy who's never been to the conference finals, badly wants to get there, backs against the wall. Like can we summon that a little bit like a little bit? Can we find a happy medium and he's had a weird scatter shot playoffs and you mentioned the fatigue. I just wonder like how much this cage have left in the tank like every single bucket is such hard work. And I do wonder if part of the reason the calves are not trapping him more than maybe they quote unquote should when he has Mitchell or Harden on him in particular is it's just wearing him every drop because he's not like a blow by guy. It's like every drive is like burrow over here, crossover over here, spin back over here. It's just absolutely exhausting and he's still guarding even though they swapped some of the assignments last night. He's still spending a fair amount of time guarding Harden and sometimes even Mitchell. And I'm just like man, this guy, he's doing everything and I just wonder how much he has left in the tank and if if he can really carry it two more games like that. Yeah. I agree. All of that. And even if they're not trapping him as much as as they could be, he's often by the time he's getting to his shot, there's like two or three guys in his face, it looks like a lot of time. And that's because he also spends a lot of it like his game is going to be penetration and then pulling up from somewhere in the mid range to get that shot off. And by that time, they're sending help and it just it does. It looks like a lot of his shots are very well contested and sometimes he makes them and sometimes he doesn't. But they started falling short later in the game and that that speaks to exhaustion or fatigue somewhere along the way there and Strus is harassing the hell out of him and I think, you know, like Cade's awesome. And he's been awesome regardless. But I think the Cavs have done a great job of challenging and wearing him down throughout the course of a game so that, you know, in a game like last night, he just doesn't have a lot left. And the broader story of this series and as a lot of these sort of like ugly, slaggy defense first series go, both teams have kind of leaned more toward offense in their rotate and offense and shooting in their rotation. So for Cleveland, that's a little bit more mayoral, more Strus, less Tyson, no Keon Ellis. And for Detroit, that's like no Ron Holland, Paul Reed is an offense move over Duran and Isaiah Stewart. And that just like that suits Cleveland's personnel better than it does Detroit's personnel. It's like more lavert for Detroit. It just suits them a little bit better. And you know, we'll see the nicks are waiting Howard back to the hometown New York nicks are waiting. And, you know, Detroit fans will tell you they swept the next three oh, I don't, I put some stock into that. I'm not going to just dismiss it. And the nicks have pretty much eaten the Cavs lunch for two or three years now. But as I've mentioned before, the last time they played, I thought the Cavs found something starting Dean Wade and putting Wade on Brunson, mobility on Cat and Jared Allen on Josh Hart. And the nicks were like, oh, this is suddenly we have some resistance. But I think the nicks will be favored and should be favored the way they're playing against either of these teams. And with that in mind, Howard Beck, I have a me a Copa. Are you ready for my me a Copa can't wait. I knew this would happen two or three months ago, I banged the gavel, I banged the gavel. Richard Jefferson was on the pod and I banged the gavel. And I said, I'm calling it now. The wolves won the catch raid. Julius Randall was playing well. Dante, Jive and Shenzhou was shooting the lights out. The nicks were in the middle of their 17th cat existential crisis of the last two years. And I just said, look, given the salaries and the contracts going forward and how difficult cats going to be to move if this goes badly, like, I'm just calling it now. Wolves won the catch raid. There was a universe in which that take absolutely sustained. And at that time, I think it was the right take. Now Dante, Jive and central store in his killies, Julius Randall's having a really bad series against the spurs. And cat, it's all, I look, I don't want to do the next thing I do with Fred cats, but it's all clicking. The nicks found the ineffable, undefinable, it, the chemistry, the vibe, whatever it is, they've got it. It's flowing. And he's a huge reason why I'm both ends of the floor. And they're going to be favorites to make the finals. And now it looks like, no, the nicks won the catch raid and it might, it might sway back again. But if you, if you make the finals and win the title, you win every trade. Every trade is retroactively graded in a, as Brian one horse likes to say. But that take is not age well. And it was really dependent on the nicks failing in the playoffs and the difficulty of them, the potentially failing in the playoffs and the nicks, the difficulty of pivoting out of cat's contract. But he's been unbelievable. And like, it's just fascinating. You see how that trade is sort of swung in the wind. But right now you got to say, nicks are winning the catch raid again. And it was a fascinating trade when it happened. And it's still a fascinating trade, but cat has been awesome. And that's my mate of Copa Howard. Did you bang an actual gavel? Do you own a gavel? Don't have a gavel. Don't ever. You know what I was, you know what I was gifted at the combine. I was gifted because I've mentioned my love of the lottery before and how I have the stopwatch, the sign stopwatch. I should actually grab and show people on this podcast. Mike Gooday, the same guy who signed the stopwatch, it doesn't work for the NBA anymore. He was at the combine for various reasons and said, I have a gift for you. So boy, he's like, only you can have this gift is only for you. It was a ping pong ball number 11 from the Victor Wemba Niyama lottery in 2023. I have it in my bag over there. I don't think it ended up being relevant, but I have now also an official ping pong balls because I love the lottery. So much. Fantastic. Speaking. Yeah, go ahead. I'm with you on that. Big, big lover of the lottery and actually a little bit sad and sentimental already to think that maybe this was the last of its kind and not knowing exactly you've already reported a bunch about this, about what it may or may not look like in the future with reform almost inevitably coming. But yeah, the lottery, you know, it's bizarre and absurd and stupid and theatrical and sometimes not exactly well, thought that could have done better with the overall presentation this year. I love it, I love everything about it in all of its absurdity and I am already a little bit sad about what we may be losing in their zeal to rain in tanking. With that in mind, let's do a little, let's take a quick break and then we'll talk about some offseason story lines before we get back to the playoffs. This at close show is brought to you by Fandall and Fandall is giving you better payouts on same game parlay's all NBA playoffs long with more ways to build and more value every time you play, you can stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup and every moment. From spreads to player points to threes and more, build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlay as this NBA postseason, bet them on Fandall. More options, better payouts, all NBA playoffs long head to fandall.com/low to get started. Fandall, play your game 21 over and slick states 18 over and DC can tuck your Wyoming game win problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-77777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. The best passers-see every angle of the floor to make the perfect assist and State Farm is no different. They know the game inside and out and look at every angle to help set you up with a plan that fits your life and budget. Get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Their options are selected by the customer, availability and eligibility, very by state. You may have heard the Los Angeles Lakers have been eliminated from the playoffs by the Oklahoma City Thunder. By my kudos to the Lakers, they took game 4 down to the wire after the first three games were essentially the same game three times in a row. And now they enter a fairly dramatic offseason. Austin Reeves has a player option that he will turn down. He will be an unrestricted free agent. Louis Hatchimura, who turned into a Steph Curry for another playoff run, is also an unrestricted free agent. LeBron James is an unrestricted free agent. The Lakers are hiring two assistant general managers under Rob Polinka as the Dodgers people begin their invasion and takeover of the franchise. And I will tell you this. If you have a smart assistant GM on your team, the Lakers may have already reached out to them. People who have, it's hard to say exactly who turned down what or who said no to who if it's like a year fired I quit situation. But there are definitely been people who did not interview with the Lakers after being approached for an interview with the Lakers, either their choice or the Lakers choice unclear like what happened. But there's definitely weariness of, is this a Dodgers hire or is it a Polinka hire? Am I tied to Polinka or am I not tied to Polinka as the Dodgers stuff happens. So that's interesting. And yeah, much is being made about their potential $50 million in cap room and that does include Austin Reeves Capold, which is artificially low. So they could have, if they were announced LeBron, if they were announced Ruey, they could sit there with $50 million in cap room, three first-round picks potentially to trade because I don't think free agency isn't necessarily going to be the way they fill that cap room if they have it. But if they don't renounce LeBron James' free agency rights and Ruey's free agency rights, and they could do that and still bring them back, it's possible, they will not have cap rooms. So I am very interested to see where this heads and like clockwork upon the Lakers elimination Dave McMeneman, did you read Dave McMeneman's fantastic story about LeBron and the Lakers yesterday? I did. I would like to congratulate Dave McMeneman for writing a story about LeBron's sometimes fraught relationship with the Lakers that begins with an anecdote about Rob Polinka entering the locker room after a victory in late January in which I'm reading it again to make sure. LeBron passed Kareem for the most victories by any player in NBA history was not aware that that had occurred, by the way. Luca Dante had stopped 15,000 points and Ruey Hutchimer reached 5,000 points, also was not aware of that. And then everyone's happy and then the comes of the line. Still, James celebratory mood did not last long. And do you know why? It's because Rob Polinka gave the game ball to JJ Reddick and LeBron stormed out the locker room and he was not happy about it and felt the Lakers were trying to push him out the door during the Luca era and all of that. And then there's other stuff in there about the Lakers having a front office exercise of trying to watch LeBron with blinders on during games and saying how much would that guy really be worth in free agency, mid-level, whatever and that getting back to the Lakers? I would like to congratulate Dave McMahon on the story from this regard. Everybody looks petty and ridiculous. It should be embarrassed about their participation and appearance in this story. Everyone looks ridiculous. LeBron looks ridiculous. Clutch, Lakers, the Lakers are going to look ridiculous. Polinka looks ridiculous. I just, what's going to happen? I don't know how or what's going to happen, especially if Cleveland wins this series and takes themselves out as a potential LeBron shooter. If the Knicks make the finals and takes them, take themselves out of a potential LeBron, what kind of money is he going to want? Where is he playing next year? What's happening? Is he retiring? I don't think he's retiring. I don't think so either and I've never thought so. My God, there was so much to unpack even within the first couple of graphs that you just alluded to of that story. A great piece by McMahon and Great Job, Dave. So most wins in NBA history by a player. I didn't even realize or think about as being a thing, right? And LeBron has passed Kareem and others for so many other. What's he going to do with the Game Ball? How many Game Balls? When did Game Balls become so controversy? Remember the Yanis versus Rick Carlisle one was delightful. My God. So yeah, I mean, you've got so many accolades at so many Game Balls and so many trophies and your various trophy cases that could fill my Brooklyn apartment. I don't know what else there is there that you need or why it's important. But through a certain lens, I understand why LeBron already kind of back on his heels for the last year plus ever since they acquired Luca, everything probably feels like a slight or an oversight at a certain point. And giving JJ Reddit the Game Ball, when LeBron's got only so many of these milestones and markers left, and he's insecure about his future with the Lakers, like I sort of get it. But yes, as you already said, petting us all the way around, I'm going to go hyperbolic for a couple of moments here on a couple of points that I don't actually think are hyperbole. But here we go. One is, LeBron's free agency, I think, might be the most delicate fraught for the agency we've ever seen. I just cannot. I was trying to think of anything that even approaches this. When you factor in all of the different pieces of this, right? You have clearly put your future in the hands of Luca Donchitz from the moment you made this trade that just fell out of the sky. LeBron James has gone longer and deeper into his career than anybody could have ever anticipated at a level that nobody could have ever anticipated. And he's 41 years old. And still, like to the point of that exercise that you alluded to by Laker for an office, people were they're saying, if we just stripped away the identity, what would a player who looked like this and played like this and put up these numbers actually be worth in free agency? Like, I think that's an interesting, you know, intellectual discussion and it's one you kind of have to have because they have cap room that they need to figure out how to allocate and they have to figure out how, how much are we moving firmly into the Luca era and how much are we still tied to the LeBron era? And listen, like there were times the season LeBron played incredibly as the second to third option. But I just, his free agency is as fraud as can possibly be because of who he is, where he is at the stage in his career, because of who the Lakers are, because of who Luca is. And so related to that, my second hyperbolic statement that I don't think is actually that hyperbolic is this is an incredibly, this is the most critical summer for the Lakers at least since the moment they got LeBron back in whatever 2018. It's their first real chance to reshape around Luca. There have been other windows to reshape around Luca, including last summer, but none that involved having vast amounts of cap room and the flexibility that comes with it. I agree with you, it's not going to be free agency spending specifically necessarily. It could be acquiring guys into space, but they have to figure out how much of that space is actually going to Austin Reeves, cap hold or no cap hold, how much of it's going to LeBron if at all, and then how much is left to do all the other stuff they need to do because by the way, Zach, also not hyperbolic, they got a shit ton of work to do to actually rebuild this team around Luca. And they've gone a year and a half now without having really done that in any significant way. And when you have a guy like Luca, you're on the clock. If you're Luca, if you're Bill Duffy his agent, you are watching closely or possibly verbalizing to the Lakers. Now's the time guys, clock's ticking. Luca's in his prime. Where are we? What's the direction here and how are you going to optimize this roster for our guy? And that leads to the final point here, which is, yeah, people around the league have really taken notice of all these like LinkedIn postings or whatever's going out there about front office jobs suddenly available in the Lakers front office after years of them being, I think probably the thinnest or certainly among the thinnest front offices in the entire league. They're staffing up under the new Dodgers guys. Is that to support Rob Polenka? Is that eventually to replace Rob Polenka? Or would they make that decision even now? I feel like this has been one of the least discussed potential storylines of the season is like, Rob Polenka obviously didn't have a great relationship with Magic Johnson. Magic Johnson very closely tied to all of the Dodger people, including Lon Rosen, who's the new president of the Lakers, has the longtime conciliary to Magic Johnson going back literally decades to Magic's playing career, Lon's running the show, Magic and Rob Polenka, not exactly best of pals. There's just a lot of stuff sitting below the surface simmering there that I think has been kind of, let's just say just simmering quietly. Number one, I guess I just can't understand what greatness feels like to be to be great because to me, it's like obviously absurd that LeBron would feel slighted about the team turning over the keys to Luca Donicic, like he's 14 years younger than new or whatever, like of course that's gonna happen. Number two, to credit LeBron, he has played extraordinarily well in multiple different roles. He took a backseat, became a third option and absolutely thrived in the ideal role for him at the stage of his career. And then when Luca was hurt and Reeves was hurt, he took over again is like the most LeBron could summon of peak Alpha LeBron and it was enough to win a first round playoff series and be like respectable against the thunder and I know Reeves came back for those games too. So huge credit to LeBron in that sense. But yes, the retooling around Luca is going to involve searching for more 3&D wings, Marcus Smart as a player option. I think my guess is he'll opt out and try to find a multi-year deal maybe with the Lakers who loved him. The center position remains in flux. I think the moment the Lakers season officially ended was game three with DeAndre and Airballed a floater and you could just feel the air come out of the building and everyone with the Lakers. Where they flashed to JJ on the bench and he's just like exasperated or was that? That was when DeAndre and failed to grab like four defensive rebounds in a row in the same game. But the floater air ball was like just this moment where it was the Ralph Wiggum moment of you can pinpoint the moment his heart breaks in the Simpsons when Lisa breaks his heart. That was that. And I don't know who that room running center is going to be. We know that they've checked in on all those guys over the years. They traded for Mark Williams and then they didn't trade for Mark Williams. They've been linked to Walker Kessler who is not really a rim runner. I don't think and I would bet would be on the jazz next season. So they got a lot of stuff to do and look I mean I'm just the safe money is they bring Reeves back. If they mess around and get too cute with it, they're going to go to the nets and the bowls and other teams that those teams are the team the the leverage points for every agent now because they have tons of cap space or teams that could create maneuverability and be like, all right, this is we're going to get a deal somewhere else. I still think he comes back to the Lakers and then you just have to like, how are we reaching Oklahoma City in San Antonio and they feel very far away because you just played one of them in a series where you didn't have Luke Adoncho. Of course, it's going to feel very far away. I kind of laughed at the whole like, well, this series laid bear, how far the Lakers have to go and how much they have to change their team building philosophy, really getting swept by the thunder without Luke Adoncho. It turned out that that's what happened. Of course, it was going to happen. But if you have Luca, you got a shot. I can't wait to see what happens and how they use that cap flexibility and their draft picks and what kind of players they go after. A name that I'm going to just bring up out of the blue, and it's not I've not heard this name in connection with the Lakers. I'm just saying this because I was at the combine. There's some Trey Murphy III buzz in terms of like, well, one of these teams in the lottery that has a lottery pick, use that as as the carrot to get Trey Murphy off of off of the Pelican. So that's just a name that I'm going to throw out there. Any other, I have no idea what's going to happen with LeBron. It seemed for most of the season, I ranked the options of where would LeBron would be as like somewhere else, probably Cleveland, maybe retire. The Lakers at times seem like the least like a return to the Lakers seemed like the least likely outcome. Now I don't know at all. And it's Cleveland advances and New York advances. And we know Golden State is sitting there and it's licked in before they'll look at other stuff. I legit like maybe it's the Lakers again. They do have his son. I don't know. I mean, the third option thing worked. Maybe that's just what it is. And you roll it back another year. You know, we're all terrible at TV for eating, but we do our best. But when Rich polished his statement last summer, I thought, well, this is it, right? He's going into it. Right. So it's his last year. I don't know if it's a farewell tour or if it's just a farewell tour with the Lakers or whatever, whatever this is. And then if you flash forward to, you know, LeBron comes back, plays really well in a supporting role. And then it's like, oh, wow, he's really kind of meshed his game and he's kind of settled into this. I had written about this earlier in the season. Like, is it time for LeBron to do what Kareem did late in his career when he kind of like handed the keys to Magic Johnson? And it kind of felt like that happened organically this year, credit to LeBron. And then when Luca and Austin Reeves are out, LeBron shows, man, I can still and you know, you cannot rely on this for 82 games. You cannot build a team around LeBron at age 41. Let's not get crazy. But for a certain stretch of time there, LeBron James was, you know, number one, two and three on that team and doing a damn good job of it and showing he can still have that kind of impact. Be top 10 player type impact, top 15 wherever you want to put it. And somewhere fine, somewhere along the way, somewhere along the way there. Um, I think I talked myself into the, well, maybe he does stay. Forget all of the other chatter and all the, the, you know, feelings of being, you know, you're, you're on Lucas timeline, not mind all that stuff. It looked okay. And then things end the way they end and we read David Miniman's story. And it's like, no, I'm back to where I was probably last summer, which is like, it's kind of hard to see them continuing. I have no until on this, I'm just going to say my gut all along has been, and this is because as you know, I'm a hopeless sentimentalist. And I just love the idea of this LeBron with the Warriors. Steve Kerr is reupt LeBron, uh, go play with Steph. They love playing together. Um, I don't know. That, that one feels like and, and to the point of earlier discussion with the, the more successful the calves are, the less it feels like that reunion makes sense. Uh, and the Laker thing is just insanely fraught. I got to tell you LeBron on the Warriors, I might, maybe I'm just, maybe I'm just a melancholy person. It feels a little gross to me. It feels a little more like a reality TV show than a good idea for building an NBA team in 2026. I don't think I don't want, I don't know. Well, I'd adapt. I'd adapt. I'd grow up and adapt. I'm adaptable. I don't, I don't like, it's something that does sit right with me. Um, a couple of other offseason items from the combine, uh, number one, uh, Eric name and shams, both were shams, both reported. The bucks are open for business, listening to honest trade offers. Obviously, uh, that was probably already known, but it's now officially out there. And it's going to be really interesting because I do think the bucks have crossed the Rubicon of like, if he doesn't sign this extension or indicates that he's not going to, we would prefer to trade him and we would like to get it done before the draft. They have the 10th pick in the draft. Uh, what else could they acquire, you know, in this particular draft and draft picks going forward, including their own picks. But it's just going to be like, you know, I had, I had breakfast with an agent of a very high powered agent the other day. And he was like, I'm still betting no trade. I'm betting no trade. And I was like, really? And he said, just go through the exercise. Who has enough? Who has enough stuff and would be good enough with the honest to contend right away. And the point was, if New York makes the finals, are they really, you know, that was his preferred destination report to the according to shams? And I believe that's right. Are they really shaking up a finals team to do this? If Cleveland advances another round, does that take like the potential moblier whatever deal theoretically off the table? And then, you know, I think Miami was the closest to maybe getting a final phone call before the trade deadline, before the Bucks pulled the plug. It's like they have the, what did they end up with the 13th pick or the 14th pick? They didn't move up. Like is all their stuff enough for Milwaukee? Are they going, are they going to settle for that? Brooklyn has a ton of stuff. You cannot trade for you on as if you're Brooklyn. If you don't have a plan to get a second guy into the door immediately, it can't be like, wait for the trade deadline, it can't be wait for next off season. It has to be now. And then you're like, well, the warriors have some stuff. They got all their picks. They could trade some picks and some money. The Lakers have all this like they can trade some picks and sign and trade Austin Reeves maybe or something. I don't know. The Clippers got the fifth pick. A couple people floated that way. They package the fifth pick and all their expirings and like, that's not getting you honest. They're not doing it for the fifth pick. I don't think. So it's like, I don't, I don't really even know what's going to happen. I'm expecting him to be traded because once the toothpaste is this far out of the tube. And at this point, you've squeezed all the tubes. There's toothpaste all over the wall. You've gone through an entire travel six pack of toothpaste. But I don't know, man, like I don't know where you'd expect him to go. If you had to just take a moonshot on it, what you would do, but it's it's going to be fun. Yeah. No, I feel like it's funny. So the bucks were here very, very late in the season in Brooklyn. Maybe it was the last week of the season, really. And I walked into the press room. I saw the bucks beat riders. They're busy. There were like five bucks stories going on simultaneously that day. And they're very good. It's not, it's not under the radar this year, this week that the, what happened? The NBA concluded it's, it's investigation into whether the but whatever was going on and nothing and what the, what the honestly is availability. Okay. And so I said, I said, what's up guys? I said, uh, you're almost done. It's home. The nightmare's almost over because you know, the season's almost over and besides that the honest thing, whatever the saga, whatever this conclusion is, it's coming to a head. And they, they were, they were all like, they just gave me this look of disdain. Like it's not, it's not over. It's never ending. And, and on a serious note, in talking to them and other people around the bucks, um, traveling party, because I kept making the same joke. Like don't worry guys. It's, it's almost over. You get to, to, you know, exhale for a bit here. I think there really was this feeling, at least at that time, of ambiguity of like, yeah, maybe it's over. Maybe it's not. And maybe he, he does resign. And we're still on this roller coaster of, of the, of just his, his ambivalent feelings about the organization and where they're heading and his, you know, the supporting cast, I don't think that that's going to be the case. I like, I, I feel like we are way beyond that to your point. Toothpaste already everywhere. And ownership has already drawn the line in the sand publicly. Ownership that doesn't talk very often has said like, yeah, we need to know. Is he signing the extension that he can't sign until October anyway, but he needs to tell us sooner than later. And if he's not going to be signing the extension, then we got to move on. And that's the practical correct thing to do. And besides that, the signs coming from Yannis himself for quite a while here have been pretty clear. If I can't win a championship in Milwaukee, I want the chance to try to pursue championships somewhere where I can. I don't know where that is either Zach. I don't know which of these potential suitors out there makes sense. But we're going to know pretty soon. This, this stuff's getting resolved in the next, like, I don't know, six to seven weeks probably. I don't think this is going to be one of those Dwight Howard traded in mid August or Carl Anthony Towns traded out of the blue in September. I think we're going to get a Yannis resolution sooner than later here. A couple of other teams that should be mentioned just to mention them. Portland because they have the Bucks picks. I don't think Yannis is going to Portland. I do like more, the more I think about it, I like my three team trade idea of Jalen Brown to Portland, Yannis to Boston, picks Galore and all their stuff to the Bucks. But I don't know if the Celtics really have an appetite to break up the Jays and the greatest Twitch stream I've ever seen the Jalen Brown Twitch streams. Toronto has all their picks and swaps and all that. And if long been sort of vaguely tied to Yannis when Messiah Jury was there, obviously, Messiah's in Dallas now. I just don't see any deal that Milwaukee is taking that It doesn't include Scotty Barnes, and they're not getting Scotty Barnes. Chicago, don't see it, and Boston, the straight up, Jalen Brown for Yannis Deal with Boston sending other stuff, you know, makes, you could certainly, that makes some sense for both teams. I think it makes less, I'm a little lower on that deal for the box than the consensus. It's a very, it's a stay relevant deal, and maybe that's okay. So we shall see, but Cleveland and New York meeting in the conference finals, if that's indeed what happens, kind of complicates the landscape a little bit and cracks the door open for some of these teams who maybe don't have quite enough on paper to do it. If you just absolutely forced me to call a moonshot and be like name a team, like you have, you absolutely have to bet blindly name a team. I think I would pick Miami, but obviously it's just a blind, you know, just a blind guess at this point. You mentioned Messiah Jerry and ties between Messiah and Yannis, should we put Dallas on this list now that Messiah is running the show there? I mean, they have the number nine pick with, they finished ninth. I think they got nine. They have no draft capital trade, and they're out a couple other picks. I would, if I'm Messiah, I'm going in there and I'm taking my time and I'm just seeing what I have in Cooper flag and Kyrie Irving and all that. All right, let's take another quick break. We'll do a little bit more offseason stuff and then quickly on Spurs Wolves. All right. Are you ready for some schmoozing and boozing stuff from the combine? Can't wait. Okay. Um, as you know, I am not a draft guy and I'm not, I watched, I'll do my YouTube due diligence shortly, but I obviously just spent four straight days talking to people and not stop. Um, it's, it's an interesting draft. On the one hand, everyone pretty much agrees that the safest bet of how the top four unfolds is Washington makes the safe pick of the bandsaw one. Utah grabs Peterson two, Memphis with a hole on the front line after trading triple J, grabs, can boozer. And then Chicago does back flips and just takes Caleb Wilson, probably the safe bet. I will say you can find, I don't, I don't think any of those front offices are unified on who they should take at that spot. I need to be healthy debates within every front office. You can find front office people across the league who will whisper to you that they would take Caleb Wilson number one. And I'm talking like not random, like, eighth on the totem pole front office guys. You can find front office guys who would be like, you know what? If I had my druthers, I would take can boozer number one. And so I'm just interested just like, I don't think Washington has decided who they're taking. I don't think every, you know, there's this expectation that because the bandsaw has been so closely tied to Ryan Smith and BYU and Utah Prep that the jazz will make a godfather offer to move up one spot. I don't think that's happening. They might make an offer and obviously like Washington really wanted Ace Bailey who's on the jazz now. So could you offer like number two and Ace Bailey to move up one spot? I guess. I know the angels well enough and their track were cool enough to know that Danny angels not there to do Ryan Smith's bidding and Austin Angels not there to do Ryan Smith's bidding. If they think whoever is as good, like if they think Peterson's as good as the bandsaw and they're thrilled to have them, they're just going to be like, we'll take whoever comes to us. So we'll see what happens with that. By the way, a lot of people have said to me like a man Ace Bailey was he the biggest loser of the lottery and it's because you know the jazz have four starting spots pretty much in Penn and Kianta George in assuming they resigned Kessler, the three big guys, Markin and Triple J and Kessler and they could pick the fifth guy from this draft and like, you know, Ace Bailey is like young man, just he's I had a really nice rookie year. If he has to come off the bench and play 25 minutes for a good team, does he think really a loser in all of this? Then after those four, I met a lot of, we met with a lot of scouts who were like, who rejected the idea that it's a four player draft and there's a giant chasm between number four and all the guards that come after that. And then I met a lot of scouts who were like, no, there's, there's a chasm. So there's some division there. A lot of buzz about Keaton Wogler and the Clippers at five from that Indiana pick. What a week for the Indiana Pacers. Oh my God, stay off Twitter, everybody. That doesn't make sense. He's a big guard. They already have a small guard. The Clippers love big guards. And then after that, you got Brooklyn and Sacramento in polar opposite situations. Brooklyn at number six has a thousand guards and they're in a range where there's just guards, guards, guards. Maybe they just take buries who's not the, not a point guard. And the Kings have no point guards and they're just like, all right, we fell to seven, but there's just point guards all over the place. So it's, that's my, that's my draft, it's my draft stuff. Any thoughts? Nothing really on the draft and all of that. It was like, you know, you covered this well with Gavoni the other day. I listened to that. I mean, it was just such a wild. It was a potential, it was going to be a potentially wild lottery. It was almost like less wild than expected in some ways, but just some of the shocks, including the, the Pacer thing and the Clippers. By the way, on that, if there's one takeaway from the lottery that has nothing to do with the draft or talent or who fits where and all that stuff, it's this. This should stand as the final case that there are no conspiracies. There is no rigging. Shout out to Bill. There is no karma. The basketball gods are either dead or just incredibly mischievous. I don't know because the way that unfolded, I just think you cannot possibly believe in a lottery karma basketball gods conspiracies are rigging. All those things just went right out the fucking window. The other thing that it confirmed for me is that the lottery drives people insane. Like it makes smart, it breaks smart people's brains. For Kevin Pritchard to tweet that was like unfathomable to me. You were surprised that a 50/50 chance won against you. Like it's one thing to like be hurt and that's a gut shot. There's no question. But you can't be surprised that a 50/50 shot won against you. Poor Avita Zubots. I was like, wait, are you apologizing for trading for me? And I didn't meet people who were like, you know, what they could have done is, if that pick is, you condition the trade like, if the pick is five or six, then you don't get a future versus a pick. That it's just that pick for Zubots. That's pretty fair. Now they still have a future for whatever. I mean, I just, and then, and then I've mentioned before that Ryan Smith was like furious last year that the jazz didn't move up and get the number one pick or move up at all. I'm like, no, you know what? Your entire front office has been telling you the entire year what happened was the most likely thing that was going to happen. And I'll tell you, there's always one guy in the lottery room whose team doesn't move up or moves down in the drawing room. And you just kind of can tell by the way they're sitting and looking and staring, they're like, I don't think it's a good idea to interview this guy right now and like go try, Josie for the Nets was was not was not approachable after the lottery of certain energy did not, did not look approachable. So we'll see what the, and we'll see what the nets do. I mean, this is two straight years where the nets year one, Jordy wins too many games and they end up picking eighth and they have five first round picks. They use all of them. Year two, they like try to kind of pull the rug out and they still end up picking sixth and yeah, I will say, with regard to Kevin Pritchard in that statement, I'll defend the intent. The content. You want to sway your fans and be like, like, you know, don't be mad. We tried like this is this happened. It's the right thing to be accountable. I don't know that I want to go to the point of an actual apology, but I'm okay with it. The, I didn't think this was going to happen when the odds say it's a fucking coin flip. Oh, yeah. That great. That great. Not great. But I appreciate that he is holding himself accountable and wants to directly address the fans on that. By the way, shout out to Kevin Pritchard for being to my recollection of this and I've cited this in print several times and nobody's said otherwise. He is the corner of the really important phrase of the last 15 years, the treadmill of mediocrity, something that he said at a Sloan conference that you and I were probably both at way back. I thought you were going to say he's the only GM who's active on Twitter and I was like, are we including Burner accounts or no? Yeah. Yeah. Somebody, somebody else who, GM who was once very active on Twitter, who's not anymore, who I don't know if we're getting to that particular news item. What news item? What am I? Oh, yes. We will get to that now, actually. That's next time I off-season docket, the Philadelphia Sixers have fired Darryl Mori as president of basketball operations. They appear to have retained the rest of Darryl Mori staff, including Elton Brand. They also retain Nick Nurse, so the unusual sort of the coach stays, the GM goes as the new top guy, doesn't get to pick his own coach, at least off the top. And Darryl Mori is, I don't know how he did it, I guess by being a pioneer of some kind, like, any news item involving Darryl is just more explosive than it is for almost any executive in any sport anywhere. Like most people are like, "Oh, a GM got fired, well, that seems to happen a lot." If the Mets fired David Sterns today, there'd be like a Mets fan outcry, but it's like, "Well, okay, that happens." Daryl Moly. It's like a huge international story that he gets fired Yeah, I'll just leave it to you like what was your take on the events in Philly what led to this? Is it the right decision? I'll just I know you're writing a column on it for the ringer comm so go ahead Yeah, I mean There are a lot of different ways to to look at this. I will say I was a little surprised That they made this move and that they made this move now I get it. It was a really grisly ending Exacerbated and I think definitely exacerbated and I think even though this should not play into a decision like this Absolutely exacerbated by the fact that Nick's fans colonized their arena for games three and especially four Turnfield healthy into like the sixth burrow. I don't think that like anybody's probably walking out of their clear headed about The direction of anything and it's I almost feel like this was like someone had to pay the price This is not I'm not saying that there was nothing to criticize Delamore's term about I'm not saying Whether's justified or unjustified. I'm just saying I do think that the way this ended clouded everything and you only had to roll back The calendar by about ten days where they were like the great Cinderella story having knocked out the Celtics and come back from a three to one deficit Something that only a handful of teams had ever done and then it beat and then it beat gets hurt again and then it gets hurt again To that point You you tell me if I'm wrong on this like this the most criticized Decisions of Daryl's time in Philly would be Some in in whatever order. I think the imbete extension in the Paul George contract Those are like kind of probably bullet points one and two because those are two albatross contracts right now for that franchise and then more recently I guess the McCain trade and They're an overall lack of depth. Am I missing anything major in the Darryl Mori indictment from disgruntled six or fans I say a Joe I think would be would be one that was nishik and honestly like That was that was preemptively because there was I don't remember the exactly the details But they had to cut someone or they were going it was clear. They were going to cut someone because either they had 16 at camp or they had wanted to get down to 15 or 14 rather And there was a debate about who it should be and there were sixers writers and fans and people like me being like it shouldn't be I say a Joe That guy can play and then it was I say a Joe I do like and talking to people around the combine This this was not a surprise like this had been building Everyone there was talking about it for 36 hours before it happened. Yeah But I think he wasn't there right he wasn't there And I do think the optics mattered and I think the optics included McCain playing well against the Lakers And Darryl just can't help himself in some of his press conferences where he says yeah, I think we sold high You like he just shouldn't just just be more polite than that and let like I appreciate the honesty And I guess I should appreciate the honesty But when you say that and a player becomes a key contributor on the best team in the NBA in the playoffs No, he wasn't in the first round, but in the second round he was It's not going to look great and I do think the nix invasion mattered and I had one person asked me like Would he would this have happened to your point about how how quickly I changed they beat Boston They exercised the demons in that series come back from 3-1 Would this have happened if it was 4-1 nix and game 5 was a competitive game like is it just how bad it ended and I maybe um On the Paul Georgian and beat things Look, I liked the Paul George signing for the Clippers in part because if you have mb'd you just need to do everything You can to win now and fuck the future and I and I thought they would fit well He's been less available and less productive. He was and he was coming off a great season too and and most of the reviews of that signing were favorable And people were like really being like what did the what the Clippers are just giving up and it turned out the Clippers were fine And I was wrong about that one and Bede's extension has been mischaracterized Constantly called the three-year extension was actually a two-year extension Because he was already under contract for he had a player option for 26-27 next season Which spoiler alert Joelle and Bede's going to opt into any player option that he has given his health issues And he opted out of that as part of a three-year contract So it's really only two years were tacked on yes, and here like I don't remember hearing Seeing getting third or fourth-hand wind of Josh Harris Pounding his fist on the table being like these things are bad ideas In fact, Josh Harris was sitting next to Joel and Bede during their little signing ceremony for Instagram when they tweet about oh great Did Joelle and Bede is signing this extension so like I don't you know was he was he out and for now bill to his credit Was out in front of the and Bede things like I wouldn't have done this. I would have traded him right away to the nicks That's like I was the I wasn't the opposite. I was like This is just kind of what you do with franchise players because if you don't do it It's over like if you don't sign Joelle and he's a year and a half removed from winning MVP or barely Not even actually. Yeah, and I was like this is just kind of what you do and obviously it's been a disaster and Bill was right and but if you say no to that and you say no to Paul George You're just doing a complete you turn pivot and maybe that's what they should have done and luckily for them They kind of ended up doing anyway because the lottery gods gave them VJ Edge comb and they made the right pick on that Just like they made the right pick on maxi. I think overall if you spin the Simmons to harden harden for draft capital series of transactions I think they came out okay in that and the game that I will always go back to That we don't talk about this series much anymore. It's three years ago When they were up three two against Boston and James Harden had actually had two of the best clutch moments of his career And that series I believe was games one and four and they had a home game for game six They lost that game by nine Boston rallied in the fourth quarter to win that game That's the game you look back on you're like James was playing pretty well Joel was playing pretty well you won the MVP that year We had a chance at home to go to the conference finals and we couldn't close it And then we just get absolutely rolled in game seven. It's a total no show by Mbid It's a total no show by harden and Jason Tatum has 50 something points that game Maybe it was just all over that game and and but you know Look, I understand the decision those contracts are awful. They're on like Mbid's contract is obviously unmovable The McCain thing looks bad. I think Darrell's a good GM Obviously, he's never won a title And I'm interested to see who they hire. I think the record in Philly is is checkered But I I would like to see what the other course of action not taken what it would have looked like I guess Agreed I think Darrell is a very good GM I think he's going to be Running another team again in this league. Maybe he takes a year off this time He he had said he intended to do that the first time when he left Houston and then Philly came calling um We're gonna we're gonna see him again There are teams right now. I think that could use him but that's but not I'm not gonna go down that road um I don't think the sixers have a GM problem They don't have a leadership problem. They have a joell and bead problem They might they might have they might have an ownership problem too They may have an ownership problem um but You know, could you is it fair to say that Darrell In giving that extension to joell and again, yes, it was a two-year extension not three Does that exacerbate the joell and bead problem like sure But as you just said and I would make the same point like find me the top 10 player and he's not top 10 right now But he did sign that extension 1 MVP in 2023 signed the extension 2024 Find me a superstar in this league who was a recent MVP in his prime who was denied a max extension like it doesn't happen politically uh Just um vibes wise everything you can't you can't do that so Also not for nothing. I believe that the Embed extension was part of also getting embied on board with then the pursuit of Paul George and you can criticize that one But again as you pointed out People didn't really criticize the Paul George deal at the time. They thought wow what the best free agent on the market They got a guy who's who's an you know a perennial all-star sure latent is career But and I do think people bill included Had red flagged those at the time saying these could come back to haunt you and they have um But the biggest thing holding the sixers back for the last however many years is that joell and bead can't stay healthy Period like that's their biggest problem And if I waved a magic wand right now, Zach and I undid all the things that you and I just talked about the embied extension the Paul George deal the McCain trade the Isaiah Joe thing Undo all of that magically they still get smoked by the nicks in the second round we're in the same place like I sure there's some Other roads not taken here, but the Paul George if you didn't sign Paul George it was gonna be like like de Mar de Rosen or KCP or somebody like there weren't like great fallback options that summer as I recall I wrote about it at the time I haven't re-read it, but like there weren't great fallback positions So like what where else was that money going to go? How else were they upgrading the roster there? And yeah lack of depth hurt them in that series, but like I'm sorry McCain wasn't changing the outcome of that series and no combination of McCain and Isaiah Joe was changing the outcome of that series I think you made the counterargument for the embied extension while making the argument for the embied extension um And in the argument is like I the lesson of these kinds of deals is Maybe you just I mean like I can't believe I'm saying this about their own worry. You just gotta be colder. Like you just you just have to be colder. And Joil and B being an injury risk was the opposite of news to anyone. His first contract extension at all those like partial guarantees, non-guarantees, injury, whatever guarantees. And the Sixers had his medical records on hand, they know more about him than the rest of us do. And and maybe maybe who knows? Like if Josh Harris tells you, no, we're signing him to an extension, it's your job as a GM. If you believe it to not to convince him otherwise. And clearly they should have been colder. But the cold road is is pain. It's pain. It's eating a lot of shit from your fans who love Joil and Bede. And it's immediate Defcon one drama. By the way, we're now dropping cat wear at Cavscon three right now. Currently, we are at Cavscon one. Then we dropped it to Cavscon two. And now with them ahead, we're still at Cavscon three. It's hard for them to get the lower than that. I won't just put one quick Josh Harris note on this too. And I understand there were other remedies. But the GM is also not the one who wakes up one morning and decides I'm going to get rid of a good player to duck the tax because I like ducking the tax. That's an ownership directive. Were there other ways to accomplish that? Probably. I just want to put that under the Harris category as well, or the ownership category. With these, it's similar to, I mean, once you get into these contracts that are at and it's it's one of I think flaws, maybe too strong word because this is a unique case of a guy whose health history was just terrifying from day one. But like once you get into the range that like Jalen Brown is in right now, money wise, and you're a honest even in that you get the next extension is coming. Like you because the NBA is a salary cap league and does not offer any relief even if it's a home growing guy that you drafted that's on a super max, like you detects the apron, you get nothing, no relief for any of that. I think you should personally, if it's a home growing guy, on a max like Jalen Brown, I think there should be some relief because I just don't like the notion in my gut of it's bad for me to keep this home growing star on my team that my fans love. It's bad, it's a bad thing. It should not know part of it should be that bad. You just got to be colder. Like you just with the rules, you just got to be colder and they weren't cold and Bill called it out right away. And I was like unwilling to be that cold because it just seems unrealistic to me, but in hindsight, they should have been okay. Darryl Moore's out nerds cry. Let's talk quickly about Spurs Wolves, which has been a weird series marked by a flying elbow, by Victor to Nas Reed. It's three two Spurs Spurs one game five at home going away, outstanding second half performances from the two young guards to Fond Castle and Dylan Harper. It's just absolutely terrifying. The idea of these three guys, Vic and those two playing together is just beyond terrifying. I picked Spurs and six. I am going to predict that the Spurs close it out in six if only because they have two blowout wins and one close win and both the Wolves wins have been very close, one of which included Victor being ejected in the second quarter. And the Wolves are just like Ant is clearly not a hundred percent. He can access some, he can access Ant powers for parts of games, but not all of games, even Chenzos hurt. It's just, it's their thing and they're facing a young, feisty, fast opponent. And they have some pathways that they can maybe try to get to and I'm not saying they're not going to win game six. I mean, I would predict the Spurs win, but the Wolves have proven they're never out of a series like this is a tough Brazilian team. They need a lot more from Julius Randall than they're getting. And maybe they get it in game six. Maybe they get a crazy aisle game. He's dealing with some, some bumps and bruises. He was out a game initially early in the series. I don't know any, any thoughts on any thoughts on this one? Are we, are we destined to get the Spurs under conference finals? I feel like we are. I always felt like we were on that path. And it certainly became the case or more, you know, stronger possibility of that once there was the ant injury and the Devon Chenzo, you know, season ending injury and the I/O stuff and whatever. And I just keep wondering like, even though I think the Spurs were the ones destined to win this series in an alternate universe where the Wolves are at full strength. What does this look like? It'd be a lot of fun. It's been fun anyway. Harder to, harder to throw a million bodies at Ant when you have done to Devon Chenzo shooting on the forum. Not saying it wouldn't work because it's been a smart strategy. It's, they have just not let Ant get in any kind of pick and roll rhythm with Go Bear who had a terrible game in game five. But it's at least there's a little more risk to it. Yeah. I was looking this up to Spurs. You know, they've only lost three games in the playoffs period by a combined 10 points. And they all coincide with Wembee things, Wembee weird things. So the, the game he's knocked out gets the concussion against Portland they lose. The game he goes five for 17 against the Wolves in game one. He was O for eight on three's in that one. So even that one, like you could say, oh, well, you know, Go Bear and those guys did a great job defensively. Sure. But like, he's not usually O for eight on three's and those are not shots you can actually even defend. So that was another, like just kind of an anomalous Wembee game. And then the last one was the the flagrant two ejection. And so like those are the three games they've lost in the playoffs other than that. They've looked incredible. Like they just, you know, and so I do expect them to close it out against the Wolves. I wish Minnesota was at full strength. Speaking of trades, and I think you addressed this one recently too, but like the roller coaster ride that we've all had on the Go Bear trade. And I think you declared it the other day. Like they absolutely, not whether or not it was not a winner lost the trade. It was a good trade. It worked. They got what they wanted out of it. Yes. Like, you know, they're, they're right now, you know, two wins away from what would be a third straight trip to the conference finals. And I don't think it's going to happen. But they've been one of the best teams in the West for, you know, more than a few minutes here. And that's, you know, that's the, I'm not gonna say it's the most you can ask for. You want championships. You want a chance to be in the mix for a three to five year run in an era when nothing lasts three to five years in the NBA. Agreed. And, you know, like the wolves were right there with the kings and like playoff droughts. This is just a raging success. And like in, in, in any sense. Yeah, I mean, look, they've, they've earned the benefit of it now with their toughness. Like, could they force a game seven? Absolutely. Could they win a game seven? Sure. I personally would be pretty surprised, but it's certainly possible. Spurs are plus 56 in 156 minutes with Wembee on the floor in the series. His last two non-adjection games have been just masterpiece games. And, you know, that, oh, I mentioned before, like you learn about yourself a little bit in this in these series, teams have to like pivot into uncomfortable positions or whatever. That first game, he shoots all the threes and he says afterwards, like, I just, something of the effect of like, I just, you know, I got off track a little bit. I didn't feel the game the right way. And since then, he's just been so determined to direct everything at the basket. Both as a screener and they're using him as a screener more in the pick and roll than ever. And just as, yeah, okay, Rudy, like, you're giving me a little space. I'm going to eat up the space. And yeah, you're big and you're tough and you're physical and you're going to meet me 10 feet from the rim. And it's not going to be an easy shot. It's not going to be comfortable. But I got really long arms and I can find ways around you. And you might foul me and he's, he's just everything has been forceful. And that's the, that's, that's the way he needs to play. And, you know, we'll see from Randall, like, you know, it's, they just need more from him, particularly when he is, um, they, they were guarding him, they, they're guarding him with small guys. He can get any switch he wants. And I just, I'm so fascinated by the go bears out of the game, uh, Wembe's in the game moments. And Minnesota seems to like that Minnesota seems to like how the floor looks when it's not go bear versus Wembe when Wembe's playing his own or playing on McDaniels. And in, um, in game five, they just, for the first time in the series, the spurs just said, try guarding Randall. And we'll see how it goes. And it wasn't all the time. Sometimes he would still stand on the baseline and play a zone and the wolves have ways to manipulate the floor with their shooting against that. But it was interesting to see them just play the, it's just just guard Julius. And when they put Julius into pick and roll, it was all of a sudden, this monster is there with his giant arms guarding it two on two, which I thought was interesting. So, um, and if, if indeed the wolves wrap it up, two things happen. The spurs wrap it up. Sorry, the spurs wrap it up. Two things happen. Spurs thunder. Holy. First of many, hopefully, uh, and obviously four, one season series, uh, spurs some spiciness in that one, um, Shea versus Victor, all of that. And the wolves like sneaky, interesting offseason, Spotrack lists Anthony Edwards as extension eligible in the off season. Ios a free agent, um, and they have, you know, some, some tax issues to deal with, uh, Mike Connelly is a free agent. And if that, if that matters and, uh, they were obviously on the, uh, in the honest universe at the trade deadline, I was never really clear to me how they were going to acquire the assets that were, we're going to be needed to get him, but, I don't know, just, just saying how it back. Yeah, um, fascinating offseason indeed. And, um, I hate that we're having to prematurely bury them, but, um, it does. This is what you have to think about. They're down three to they could absolutely win. It's Thursday. We're like, who knows what we're going to record again. Yeah. Um, - No, I hate to do the thing where we look ahead too soon, but we've been doing this for months already. Spurs versus Thunder is going to be an absolute barn burner assuming that that's the outcome. And can't wait, it's going to be incredible. Yeah, I have no other deep thoughts on that at the moment. - Let's end obviously on a horrible somber note, just a dreadful week of NBA news. The Brandon Clark, passing away at age 29, rippled through Chicago just before it was tweeted, and you could just see everyone as they found out, just the complete shock of how, why, and we'll learn about it, but just base level, like, seemed like a great guy. He came on my podcast once. He was delightful, teammates loved him, dealt with a ton of injuries over the last couple of years, and whatever happened at, like, just age 29, it's just unfathomable. And Jason Collins, the first openly gay NBA player, an active NBA player, and I believe the first openly gay, US major sport professional active athlete, passed away from brain cancer this week. I know you interview him. I think when he came out and then he played a little bit for the nets after that, obviously thoughts to the Clark and Collins families, you know, Jaren is his twin brother as a coach in the league now. Any, I mean, these are the things that are just like, what am I gonna say, right? But you at least had to sit down with, or an interview with Jason when he came out, reflecting on what this meant as sort of a trailblazer. - Yeah, just shocking, awful, and Hart goes out to everybody and the families of everybody associated with teammates of everybody, of Brennan Clark and Jason Collins, just gut punches the other day. And the Jason Collins, when we knew was coming because to, you know, he was very bravely fighting this battle publicly and I think it was an as told to with our friend, Ramona Shelburn, from some months ago, where he disclosed the public what he was going through with the brain cancer. And so, you know, you knew it was coming, but it's still shocking and awful at the moment it happens. He came out on the cover of Sports Illustrated back in 2013 that was with Franz Lidz, I believe, as the writer. And a couple months later, I got him on the phone. I was at the New York Times at the time just to talk about, because when he came out, he was a free agent. He had just, he had most recently played for the Wizards. So he got to be classified as the first active NBA player to come out while active, but he was not signed. And so, one of the things that was really unclear at the time was like, what is this moment really going to mean in terms of being a trailblazer and maybe smashing this barrier so that others can be honest about who they are while playing in the league and not have to worry about backlash and not have to worry about effects on locker rooms. Like, does it mean anything if he doesn't actually get on a roster again? So that was the conversation we had. I think it was like July of 2013 when he was still unsigned. This is before he had signed with the Nets. I had to go back and look it up. And, and, you know, Jason, I didn't know him well, but like Jason Collins being the classian, very thoughtful and intelligent individual. He was basically, he was like very philosophical about it, but I also had spoke with others who were advocates saying like, no, it absolutely matters if he doesn't get signed. Like that, it'll feel like this, like the, the, the, the rug gets pulled out from under this moment. So it was really important that somebody signed him and the Nets did and he played and everything was fine, you know? And, and it also did give the gravity to the moment I think that Jason had earned for it. It was really important that that happened. And then I'll just say to piggyback on something that Charles alluded to and inside the NBA last night, I just, and I've thought of this many times since then because it's been, whatever, 13 years, no one else has, has been able to come out in the NBA. There's no question there are a NBA players. And then like, that's always, always been known and in the other major sports as well. And you hope, you know, broadly speaking, you know, for society that when somebody is, is the trailblazer, that this is going to open the door for others to be able to do the same. That it hasn't happened, I think, is really unfortunate. I'm just going to use that as the term. There are stronger terms I could use. But I'm just going to say, like, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to declare anything about what that might say about the NBA, but it says something about the NBA. I think that nothing else has happened since. And I think that's unfortunate, but, anyway, condolences to the Collins family, the Clark family. And yeah, very, very, very sad, sad week in the NBA. Yeah, well said in, you know, and I don't know what else to even say. It's all terrible. Anyway, somber note and the pod on, we do have more basketball coming this weekend as a nice distraction to do where die games, sixes for the wolves and the pistons. And the thunder and the nicks await. And we move on to crown the 2026 champion. Howard Beck, you have a calm coming up at the ringer. We got real ones twice a week, I think, and Tuesday Friday. Tuesday Friday and all my days, just their game days of two day, two game days, one off day, whatever. They're just days. You're the man Howard Beck, thank you for your time. Thank you, Zach, appreciate it. That's it for today's Zach Lo Show. We'll be back next week as normally scheduled on Tuesday. We'll see what happens between now and then maybe we'll get a couple of game sevens. Maybe there'll be an emergency podcast. Who the heck knows? Let's root for two game sevens. Thanks to the great Howard Beck for his time. Thanks to Billy, Jonathan, and Michael on production. And thanks to you all for listening to Andor watching. This is Zach Lo Show. See you next week. [MUSIC PLAYING] 21 are over. And president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Starkisino or 18 and over in president DC. 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