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Hello and welcome to hysteria I'm Erin Ryan and today I am joined by strict scrutiny co-host Melissa Murray Melissa welcome thanks so much for having me Erin so I've got a question for you okay on Wednesday California Attorney General Rob Bonta announced a $17 billion settlement with meta over a lawsuit that was joined by many states and alleged that meta was tricking teens into getting addicted to their harmful websites as part of the settlement meta has agreed to add some features for users under 18 including making the apps not work after certain times at night Melissa how much more productive would you be if your social media apps just would not work after dark so there's so many I feel so much about this one I love it because I have teenagers and they're addicted to their phones and I don't know what to do I hide them I go in at night and I mess around with my daughter's tiktok algorithm so that it only recommends Jane Austin books to her but I also have this problem so I hate doom scrolling at night I try to put the phone down at night but I feel like so much of my time spent on apps isn't really even scrolling it's kind of trying to figure out how to do things like how do I repose something Instagram like what do I do with the real like we just like change my life phenomenally the whole thing would just go away yeah yeah okay well maybe they should make that feature available to everybody yes for not just for under 18 but under 68 yes absolutely absolutely today we will be diving in to a multi-state legal battle over custody of a child born via surrogacy and the firestorm of politics swirling around it and Natalie harps creepy relationship with Donald Trump is it sexist to call it creepy I say no no then host of the CMOS girlies podcast Kate Glaven stops by to talk about Gwyneth Paltrow and goops partnership with big tech and of course we end with sanny petty you're listening to hysteria the podcast for people who absolutely do not give custody of dolly partens legacy to mauga no way no I mean first of all the black delegation claims dolly like black people are really in their feelings about this one I saw on social media one of the accounts that I follow said that the grim reaper is like a male Instagram shopper like wrong substitute oh yeah no that's that's true 100 percent I am a huge dolly part in fan I think I feel like her allegiance with the LGBTQ community can't be overstated like the fact that she got 300 million books into the hands of kids that needed it she's just like a living saint and now we have Donald Trump being like oh dolly partan always really liked me do you think dolly partan always really liked Donald Trump or do you think she just loved everybody I don't think she loved everybody because I do think dolly partan could be shady like low key very subtle shade I saw an interview that she did with Barbara Walters where Barbara Walters was being pretty judgy wudgy about dolly partan like you know do you think you're a bimbo what why all the cleavage why all the blonde hair and dolly partan savagely surgically and nicely eviscerated blah blah blah like just like completely cleaned her clock it was the most savage thing I've ever seen and she never stopped smiling so I'm sure that dolly partan was friendly to him superficially kind to him but I don't think that meant she liked him mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah I also think that he's kind of got 80s brain like he thinks like his his freshest memories are like from the 80s that's why he's like nine to five dolly loved me right right noley is dolly mm-hmm yeah right exactly and like hard candy christmas dolly nope nope nope nope nope no but yeah I just I think it's it's very Donald Trump lowering the flags to half mast in response to dolly partan's death is like the thing he's done during his entire political career that I've agreed with the most um but I do not do not I cannot emphasize enough even to people who have like no exposure to dolly beyond her place in pop culture she is not she does not belong to magha she is not a she is not a cmt she's giving out books she's got the first clue that's the first clue all right let's transition to a story that I'm really glad to have you on here to talk with me about Melissa um okay there's a story of a contentious legal battle traversing three different states Texas California and Alaska and it's playing out over a surrogacy case so here's what happened earlier this year a California couple contracted a surrogate in Alaska named McKenna West to carry their child and per the contract the couple could legally ask West to terminate the pregnancy of doctors determined that had a fetal abnormality and West would honor the request so she signed a contract saying she would get an abortion if the the parents wanted her to have an abortion no fast forward to the summer and the child at 20 weeks was diagnosed with hypoplastic left heart syndrome which is a rare and life threatening defect and when the intended parents asked for West to terminate the pregnancy she was like nope not gonna do it and then West alleged the couple had pressured her to get one even though the intended parents say that everybody had agreed to get one and then with legal and financial assistance from anti abortion groups ta ta ta ta ta ta ta here they are West traveled from Alaska where abortion is legal to Texas where it's restricted and the law was more likely to favor her efforts to protect the child and secure medical care now West has given birth to the child which is not biologically hers although she carried it and gave birth to it and the child has already undergone surgery and will need to undergo more so according to Texas law the state recognizes the woman who gives birth as the legal mother of the child and with that law West is pursuing full custody of this child she's also alleged in court documents that the intended parents refuse to commit to providing the baby with life saving care and the parents deny this and the allegation has also been repeated by AG Ken Paxton who is currently running for senate and loves to poke his misshapen face he loves to poke his a lot of things but yeah yeah yeah he's poking his nose in that he's putting it yes exactly he's he has a poking enthusiast who is poking his face in this um now this case has kind of become ground zero for a new frontier of the anti abortion movement there are conservative groups like Texas Alliance for Life which represents West and purports to have aided in the fall of row it's using the case as a catalyst not only to reaffirm their anti abortion agenda but to further fight surrogacy entirely now the conservative pursuit to end commercial surrogacy is just heating up activists are pushing the talking point that surrogacy commodifies children um republican state representative in Texas said he would prioritize coming after surrogacy when the state house reconvenes the Texas right to life an anti abortion activist group said it's reasonable to expect some legislation will move at least out of the senate on this topic the 15 day old child is still in critical condition so Melissa what is going on here how did this even become such a huge mess so i am old enough to remember the baby m case from the 1980s that was the first time i think surrogacy really hit the headlines in the united states was really different i think from this particular case in part because the surrogate there
Mary Beth Whitehead actually was the genetic mother of the child that she ultimately carried to term and bore. And so this is a situation where she was artificially inseminated with another man, not her husband's sperm. She got pregnant. She gave birth to the child. She was supposed to give the child to that man, Bill Stern and his wife Betsy, who for different reasons could not carry a child to term on her own. And it turned into this huge thing also with moving from New Jersey, which is where they were, to a different jurisdiction, Florida, and lots of drama in all of this. And the same kinds of arguments were leveled in that case that this was a species of baby selling the commodification of children. Actually, I think it was more apt in that circumstance because Mary Beth Whitehead was actually the genetic mother of the child and she did agree to give her baby to the Sterns in exchange for money and that they had a contract. It was a huge case. It ultimately was resolved using principles of contract law. And one of the things that was said was that you cannot sell a baby. It's against public policy to sell a baby. But they ultimately determined that Mary Beth Whitehead was a legal mother of the child. Bill Stern was the legal father and they basically had to share custody going forward until the child turned 18. The child, Melissa, when she turned 18, if I'm remembering this correctly and I teach this case in family law, the child ultimately when she gained legal majority petition to have her legal relationship with Mary Beth Whitehead severed and to be adopted by Betsy Stern, the woman who she said was her real mother on the woman who had raised her primarily, although she'd gone back and forth between the Whiteheads and the Sterns throughout her life. For the baby M case, there was all of this appetite to make sure that something like this never happened again. So one thing that actually happened that was really important was technology. So we now have a situation where you don't actually need to impregnate your surrogate in order to have surrogacy. You have IVF. You can fertilize embryos outside of a woman's body and then implant them. And that way, as is the case here with Ms. West, the surrogate is not the genetic mother of the child, although she may be the gestational deliverer and in states like Texas where the law has not kept up with technology, the gestational mother is a legal mother. So if a baby falls out of you in Texas, you're that baby's mother, that's not the case everywhere. Other states, including New York, recognize that surrogacy happens and usually ideas that the intended parents, whoever those people are, are the legal parents of the child. So you know, you have biological parenthood, genetic parenthood, gestational parenthood and this question of legal parenthood, and they don't always line up. And I think that's one of the things that's happening here. I think it's super interesting that the anti-borshan groups are coming for this. Like they've always been skeptical of assisted reproductive technology, whether it is IVF, whether is surrogacy, all of it, because it's not "natural." And I think because it allows women to obviate their natural duty to bear and raise children. If you surrogacy, you don't actually have to go through the rigamarole of pregnancy. You don't have to stop working. If you're on bedrest, you can avoid a lot of the physical hardships of pregnancy. And pregnancy is a physical hardship. And I think that makes them very uncomfortable. It sort of defies this kind of idea of natural womanhood and what women are supposed to be doing. And I think if you are someone like many of the people in the anti-borshan movement are, and you believe that the fetus is vested with a full slate of legal rights, then the whole question of surrogacy is confounded because you are now creating a contract that deals with the fate of a person that may commodify to some degree the act of bearing that person, even if it doesn't commodify the person itself. So it sounds like this is like a mismatch of contract laws and there's not really a set of central rules governing surrogacy and assisted reproductive technologies across all the states. No, that's exactly right. It is severely under-regulated. It's mostly been dealt with using private ordering, which is contract for the most part. Some states have begun to legislate more comprehensive rules and guidelines for surrogacy. New York, for example, in 2021, passed the Child Parenthood Security Act, which addresses the question of surrogacy, but many states do not. And some are arguing that there should be a federal law governing this. Federal law is typically not the province of "family law." It's usually something that the states do, and there are 50 different kinds of family law across the country, although many of them cohere in a lot of important respects. But this is a place where some people argue that Congress should get involved and should promulgate some national guidelines for governing this. And this is where I think the anti-abortion groups are going to go next, to either outlaw it directly in the states or to heavily shape whatever kind of federal response might be in the offing. Doesn't this seem a little bit -- I mean, it could be just kind of the straightforward anti-abortion groups don't like it because it undermines women's natural responsibility in the curse of Eve or whatever. And I also feel like this case reads a bit like a Trojan horse, and it's using abortion as a Trojan horse to go after a way that gay couples are able to have children totally. But the whole fact of gay couples confounds the whole idea of the natural order of sex and sexuality. So, I mean, I don't think they're unrelated. I think for many people who oppose gay marriage, who oppose the idea of gay families, because it's gender-bending in some way, in the same way that a woman not at home with her children is also gender-bending in a particular way. Yeah, and I think this is brought up some kind of interesting like horseshoe theory moments when it comes to surrogacy, because on one hand, we see people on the far right who don't like surrogacy because they say that it undermines the natural order. And then there are people on the left, progressives, leftists, whatever, who find the commodification of a person's womb to be inherently unethical. Like, yeah, is there such a thing as ethical surrogacy and how I'm just thinking about Congress trying to have this discussion, a bunch of old grey men who have probably never changed a diaper, trying to have the discussion of like what pregnancy does to the female body, whether or not that's something that should be come on, it kind of gives me the willies, even imagining that discussion, but like, what would it look like if they had people that were actually informed on like maternal health, make setting these guidelines, what would that look like? Yeah, I don't know. So I think the problem of surrogacy, and I'm already sort of betraying my own discomfort with it to some degree, although, you know, I don't like, I'm fine with it, like I've had hideous pregnancies, and so I get why people use surrogacy, like it can be life-threatening to take a pregnancy to term, but I think that, you know, we are talking about one response on the right. There are actually lots of different responses on both the left and the right, and, you know, we should be clear about that. I think on the left there are some who are very worried that surrogacy can exploit the reproductive capacities of certain kinds of women. So, you know, a lot of the women, including, in this case, who are serving as surrogates, are women of color, and they may be women who are more socio-economically disadvantaged, for whom the opportunity to serve as a surrogate can be really important. I mean, it can provide health care in a particular circumstance. They are often compensated for the work, like the physical labor that they're doing, not for the baby, but, like, you know, maybe from abstaining, from travel, or something. If that's something that the intended parents want, and right into their contract, they could be compensated for something like that. And, you know, a lot of people talk about that. You know, this is a way that I was able to, you know, put money aside for my other children to have a college education, or whatnot, for my biological children. I think there are some people who argue that surrogacy is an act of altruism, like the ultimate act of altruism to be able to do this for a couple who cannot or don't want to actually have a pregnancy that comes to term, and it makes them feel good. And, you know, there's agency in that. So, I think the whole idea of surrogacy, especially on the left, confounds a lot of our ideas about agency, about women's choices, and, you know, there's just a lot of different takes on it. And, you know, I can see both sides, and I think it's incredibly complicated. I think right now, this case is sort of framing it up as, you know, there is surrogacy, there is this baby, the hearing on Tuesday in Dallas. I thought was so interesting because it's sort of tried to resuscitate some of the old tropes around surrogacy, including real skepticism of women who choose surrogacy, as opposed to carrying a pregnancy to term themselves. So, you know, the lawyer for Miss West, I believe, asked the woman, the intended parent, the intended mother here, why she didn't carry a pregnancy to term herself. I mean, as though, like, you know, this is a question that needs to be interrogated, and it turns out she's had a hysterectomy, and, you know, this was something that was, like, kicked around in the baby MK's, like, people excoriated Betsy Stern, because, according to them, she didn't really have a medical reason to choose surrogacy. She just didn't want to interrupt her career. Maybe it's okay that she didn't want to interrupt her career. Kim Kardashian, Chloe Kardashian, they've all chosen surrogacy for lots of different reasons, and some of it, I'm sure, is career related. Maybe some of it is about the discomfort and physical challenges of carrying a pregnancy to term.
But who are we to judge why these women are making this choice? And who are we to judge the woman who decides to do it for them? Yeah, I mean, this case brings up, it's sort of like a layer cake of different like consent moments of bodily autonomy and consent because it's not legally enforceable for a couple to force their surrogate to have an abortion. I think that is important to say, like they may have written that into a contract. I can't think of a single court that would be like, yes, I'm going to enforce that contractual provision. So I think people enter into these contracts and they're meant to structure these private agreements. I don't think anyone ever assumes that they're going to be in court litigating the various points of this contract. If in most cases things go off relatively seamlessly and you don't have to make these difficult choices and you're never in court, and that happens all the time with contracts. Yeah, I also think like, I don't know, my heart goes out to the expectant parents that now have a critically ill 15 day old baby, older than 15 days old now at this point. Who will have a series of really intrusive surgeries going forward? Yeah, you know, Melissa, when I was pregnant with my second daughter at my 20 weeks scan, they found something weird in like her chest cavity and that resulted in me having to go to like a fetal medicine specialist, like and a fetal cardiologist every single week for like the back half of my pregnancy. So I didn't even like, when they found what they thought was the problem, they thought it was like a heart problem, TAPBR, which is like total a more like anomalous pulmonary venal return. It's like a critical. They would have, and they explained what would have had to happen, you know, when the baby's born, we'll just have to like cool her body down and then immediately do open heart surgery, and then another heart surgery. And the fetal medicine like coordinator person on the phone when they were explaining this to me, they were like, yeah, you know, you should give us a call if you want to terminate because like it like I was involved in discussions about this sort of a thing like. And so I know that the parents who expected to have this baby, I know that their hearts just broke, you know, I know that they're this is not like they weren't like, we'll get rid of it. It's not how those feelings, it's a heart wrenching decision when you're presented with a situation like that. And, you know, thankfully, I've not had that in either of my pregnancies, but I mean, I think pregnancy just is a leap of faith in the best of circumstances. And, you know, I think what is unfortunate here is because we are technologically able to sort of bifurcate the process of having the child from the act of being parents. Now they're just more people involved and more people invested in the outcome. Yeah. I think that sometimes the way that we approach surrogacy underlines how for granted the female body is in our culture, you know, I mentioned the other week when Tucker Carlson was laying out his like 10 things that he wants America to be or whatever in his possible political party. He talked about centering children, but did not mention maternal health or taking care of women or uplifting women once and it's like, where do the kids come from? I feel like how hard, how, how many times do we pass over the pregnant body, the female body that is the portal through which all humans come like how or how many how are we also, how is it also hyper visible in a particular way that we feel we can intervene to like touch people's pregnant stomachs and to tell people what they should or shouldn't be doing during a pregnancy, which we do all the time, I mean, I was pregnant. Did you have somebody tell you that you weren't supposed to be doing something when you were pregnant? Oh my God. I was pregnant in Berkeley, California where someone will stop you on the street and tell you where to find the best stone ground amaranth, like of course they're going to tell you what to do with your pregnant body. Even though like they also believe in bodily autonomy, you're like, you know, breast is best. Like I heard that so many times and like, of course you're going to be breastfeeding and also like, you know, are you walking? You should be doing yoga with that baby and like all kinds of stuff. So, I think people do you feel like there is a kind of public ownership of the pregnant body even as they're all is also a kind of obscuring of what pregnant bodies actually may need. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think the burden of pregnancy and I, I'm saying this as somebody I liked being pregnant. I'm one of those annoying women. I know. I never got sick. I mean, except for the stress of worrying about like whether my baby was okay and she was. She's a complete terrorist now. She's two, she runs everywhere. Everything turned out to be fine. It was a false alarm so that all, it'll resolve, but it was a very stressful 20 weeks of my life. However, my body felt great. I loved it. I like, and I hated it. I mean, like honestly, like, I think I might have been one of those women. If I had the means, I would have been like, yeah, let's outsource this. Yeah. It was, it was physically horrible. Yeah. Megan Galey, who is one of one of a friend of hysteria, she, she was so sick. She was like, awful morning sickness and we were pregnant, we were pregnant kind of close to each other. Like our pregnancy is overlapped and I felt really bad never having morning sickness. I felt like a little bit of food aversions that I didn't want to eat sardines. But other than that, I was like pretty much okay. Just really tired. Also, I had a husband that was like waiting on me hand in foot. He was like bringing me ice cream like by the truck load practically. So it ended up working out. I was so swollen. And like honestly, I think I had. I had preeclampsia that went undiagnosed. I think it was one of those black women who just like people were just like you're fine. Oh my god. And like no seriously, like every time I touch my feet, I leave an indent. So like I couldn't, I couldn't, I was teaching because like again, pregnancy does not hue to the academic calendar. And I just remember this poor boy sitting in my family law class in the front row who's just like, Lord, please don't let this turn into a clinic like, like, you know, what's going to happen if she goes into labor in this class. I mean, and I literally taught up until like five days before giving birth. Yeah. Oh my god. That is. Yeah. It took off. In flip flops because I couldn't wear my shoes. Yeah. Well, there you go. I took off like two weeks before my expected due date. And I just sat around being bored the whole time and I was like, I'm not doing this again. But you know, here's the thing, like if I were someone who had had my children younger because like, no, I don't think anyone would want to pay my old ass body to like carry a baby. But if I had my children younger, I might have been the type of person who, if I had a family member or a friend that needed a just professional surrogate would have been like, this is something I would like to do for you. But I think that I don't just kind of putting myself in that kind of mindset. I'm like, I wouldn't want laws to say that this isn't something that people are allowed to do. I think that's such a good point. And there are women who genuinely love being pregnant, who want to be able to do this for families who are unable to bring a pregnancy to term. And for them, it's this beautiful act and they're bonded with that family going forward. I mean, I have friends who use surrogacy like because they're gay and they could not have a child on their own. And you know, they have this great relationship with their surrogate and was a beautiful experience for them. And so I too think, you know, there should be choices on the table. I do think the under regulation of surrogacy has led in some way to this really unfortunate circumstance, I don't know what the right answer is going forward. I think states should be in the lead here. And this is another place where I think states as laboratories of democracy could be really important. You know, we could have five different kinds of experiments in five different states about how to regulate surrogacy and ultimately come up with, you know, what seems to be the best and most effective method for regulation. I think a kind of broad band federal solution that is issued by our gerontocracy congress is probably not the way to do it. Right. Right. We would want to have people who had given birth within the last 10 years to be the ones that were like, make our 20 years. We'll say if you've given birth in the last 20 years, then you can like help make the rules around it because I do not want to hear Louisiana Senator John Kennedy talking about a pregnant body, it just doesn't appeal to me at all. Just this story and the complicated feelings it has brought up in me and I'm sure you as well, it's a really, it's, it's an important sticky gray discussion that I think, and I think it's one that tests all of the tenants of feminism. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Because, you know, it's really important that surrogates are not exploited. It's also really important that people have a choice to pursue having family in a way that is healthy and non-exploitative for all parties involved, even though I think pregnancy is biologically exploitative. But you know, I'm going to take that one up with God, I guess. Sir? Excuse me. Can I speak to your manager? All right. I'd like to speak to the manager. I would like to speak to the manager of the cosmos. All right. 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They would be like, you need to come and get your daughter something that's wrong with her. Can I get your girl? Yeah, yeah. My husband and I have like an inside joke that's like, what's something that I could do in front of you that would cause you to call my mom out of concern? And I feel like I was ever telling a boss that they're the most important person in the world to me. That's a call your mom moment. I think that's probably right. Yeah, we got a summon Peggy. All right. So we're going to talk about an unhealthy work relationship back in July, back in July. We cover the weird rumblings of Natalie Harp, who some of you may know as the human printer, Donald Trump's human printer, the lady who follows him around and hands him stories of things she printed off the internet that say that Donald Trump is great. But that was just the tip of the iceberg and things have only gotten weirder. As a reminder, Harp tumbled out of bed and stumbled to Trump's campaign advisory board in 2020 after he caught his attention appearing on Fox news in 2019. She also spoke at the 2020 RNC. She survived cancer and credits Trump with saving her life. Then in 2022, she poured herself a cup of ambition and let her left her job as a dolly dolly tribute today left her job as an anchor at a far right news network to join Trump staff. She quietly became one of the most powerful people in the administration, despite most people not knowing her name. But now all eyes are on her. So we've found that she kind of she's sort of like a kitty figure from arrested development following Trump around. They're kind of joined at the hip. She is the one that sourced some of his most offensive memes and like types out as truth social posts for him. So that explains the weird capitalization. And the reason I know it explains the weird capitalization is because the Daily Beast got hold of some letters that Natalie Harp had written to Donald Trump. And they are truly bananas. Absolutely bananas. But this all blew up when John Ossoff had commented that Donald Trump doesn't like being the president. He just wants to travel with Natalie and build his ballroom. Build his ballroom and travel with Natalie. Right. Right. Been traveled to the ballroom. White House communications director Steven Chung who looks like a toe posted. Sorry. Like you can't don't talk to John Ossoff like you are pretty Steven. You just don't do it. It's weird. It's weird. He said John Jackoff has to be the biggest cuck loser in politics. Instead of denigrating, hardworking people serving their country. John should look deep into his soul and ask himself why he's a miserable person who hates this country. Then another White House person posted John Ossoff is a cringeworthy feminine theater kid. Cosplaying is Barack Obama. No one gives a shit with this lightweight loser says. Yeah. So apparently this this whole it's really all in then. And then Donald Trump was asked about it. And he compared John Ossoff to P.W. Herman. Another indication of his age. But he got it wrong. He got it wrong. He didn't say P.W. Herman. He messed it up. He said something else. So he couldn't even get the P.W. Herman. Right. He's lost his fastball. You know what? Gone are the days of Donald Trump's big, beautiful brain being able to conjure lion Ted and little Marco, you know. Also, John Ossoff doesn't even look like P.W. Herman. I mean, like Darren Chris maybe like. Maybe. You know, poor man's Darren Chris. I mean, that hair is not P.W. Herman hair. No. No. He's not a P.W. Herman looking guy. No. It's like, what what are you talking about? John, I mean, John Ossoff is legitimately hot. Yes. I mean, like, like all of this to me is just like. And I say this respectfully. That's the strizand effect. Like you're you're never going to convince me that John Ossoff is not attractive. Sorry. Respectfully. Yes. Respectfully. He is an objectively attractive man. So if Donald Trump was going to go after him, I hate that I'm giving him tips. You go after vanity. You go after emptiness. You accuse him of being a hymnbo. Like that's how you go after hot people. You accuse them of being stupid. You don't accuse hot people of not being hot. We have eyes. We can see respectfully. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Senator. I yeah, but I think it has strizand effected and drawn a lot of people's attention to John Ossoff. And now. Which is making Gavin use some crazy because Gavin Newsom used to be John Ossoff. He was Gavin with the good hair. And now John is John with the good hair. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I feel like Gavin Newsom has like kind of yeah, that's true. Now it's like I think and I was seeing a conversation on the five about Ossoff and one of the one of the panelists I forget who made the mournful comment that it used to be that people voted for people for the president they wanted to have a beer with. And now it's who they want to sleep with. And it's like to know your mad the Democrats are hot. Why? Like what do you want? You thought it was funny when we were not hot. And now we are. So like what? What do you want? What do you want from us? Do you want to just be medium ugly? All of us medium ugly? I don't know. I don't know. Okay. But let's go back to talking about Natalie Harp. We can back to Natalie. Yes. We at hysteria don't believe in the dataification of politicians. We think that everyone should have learned their lesson from the dataification of Andrew Cuomo during COVID-19. So we're not doing that anymore. We are simply making professional observations respectfully. I didn't put that disclaimer in there. So the Natalie Harp thing is pretty interesting. Like I think the timing of when things are coming out is interesting. I think the fact that it's happening right before Caroline Levitt is about to leave her job as the press secretary. That's interesting. Wait, wait, wait, wait, rank speculation. Do you think that Caroline Levitt was the one who dropped a dime on Natalie? Yes. Of course. Absolutely. Absolutely. And honestly, it's the best thing I think Caroline Levitt has ever done. Well, okay. Here's the thing about Caroline Levitt. We did a this fucking guy video about her. Thank you. And she, you know, there's not that much of a resume because she's like 18 years old. She's 29 or whatever. But I will give her this. That bitch works hard. She works hard. She's spinning. She's spinning. She's like rumpul stiltskin. She is tracing her ass off. She's the tracing flick of the right. She is ambitious and she will get what she wants. And I think you have to, you have to respect it, even though she's really annoying. I think it's Caroline. And again, speculation because first of all, it was revealed that Caroline was not among the people that Donald Trump would have saved. He left her on the decoy jet. And he took Natalie with him into the like lasagna tray thing that he catering. She had the catering truck or whatever instead of some of his clothes. How big was this catering truck? I don't know. It sounds massive. It's sound I'm picturing like one of those small camper things. That's what I thought too. Like a little rolling cart. Yeah. Like are they all just like crammed in there? I don't think it was like a, it was like a, you know, saw a woman and a half trick type situation and where they were like all like crud.
crouched, but either way, he made a choice. And it was not about Caroline. Yes. Caroline got the short end of the stick. She is not in the real plane. She's on the decoy plane. I mean, and Caroline has sacrificed a lot for President Trump. She came back from maternity leave early. She came back from her first maternity leave, which happened during the 2024 campaign after like five days, five days after giving birth. She was like working and growing. Yeah. I know. I know. I know. I know. I mean, I just like thinking of five days after, I mean, like you're still walking around like, you're still a different time. Moving your stomach back and forth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Your guts are like, I'll just floating in there like the inside of a fish tank. Like it's just very, yeah. So she went back five days after giving birth. And then this time she ended her maternity leave early. So she's got two little kids at home. She's got a husband whose and this guy is going to let her get blown up. Right. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And he's he's going to let her get blown up in favor of this person who just does not leave Trump's side and seems to have like a over fixation on him. It's like Donald Trump kind of hired his stalker. And he's like so egotistical that he's like excited that someone who is who loves him that much gets to be close to him every day. But I do think it was Caroline because right around the time it was announced she was leaving. And we learned that detail about the like beverage or the refreshments cart. A couple of journalists got in trouble for commenting publicly how helpful Caroline love it was and how cordial and professional she was to work with behind the scenes, even though she was like yelling at them in the in the press conferences. So I think the Caroline helpfully, helpfully gave this to a reporter. And I think that she also knows she knows how to like get around, you know, being detected. I don't think she's I don't think she's stupid. I'll say that. I mean, if it was Caroline love it, I'm going to say, I mean, I have one question. Are you a Virgo? Because that is some vengeful Virgo shit. Like we are in Virgo season. I'm a Virgo. I respect this move. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Virgo is Virgo is yeah. This is this is Virgo behavior. 100% like do not fuck with a Virgo. Like they literally wait 20 years and just like observe you and then find a way to get your soft underbelly. And it'll be 20 years later. You'd be like, what the fuck was this for? And you're like, don't worry. She remembers. She is a Virgo. And her birthday was this week. Oh my god. Oh my god. You called it. You called it Virgo. Wow. For its Virgo season, bitches. Yeah. That's a Virgo, that's a Virgo thing to do. That's a new record. I recognized it immediately. I am a Virgo. Wow. That is so funny. Melissa, I still haven't forgiven someone who did something to me in fourth grade. If I ever have the opportunity to fuck that person, but not in a good way, in a bad way, I will. Because I'm a Virgo. I'm a Capricorn rising. And we you're also vengeful, but also earthy. We play we we to play the long game. But if it doesn't benefit us at the very end, I mean, I'll tell you a story of revenge off camera that I recently achieved. But I'm not going to say it on camera because I don't want to get in trouble. It's not it's not illegal. I didn't do anything illegal. After this podcast, I will tell you what I did once. Okay. Cool. Oh my gosh. I can't wait. I can't wait. Okay. All right. Melissa, something that really irked me or was just irksome about the fallout from the Natalie Harp thing was how it seemed like there was a coordinated pearl clutch that occurred on mass on the right. Like Megan Kelly, blood coming out of her whatever just couldn't believe how how the party of women would go after Natalie Harp. Is there anything to this neck and Kelly as the boy with the butterfly meme? Is this feminism? No girl. It's not. There's nothing anti-feminist about saying like this is some weird shit. I mean, there is objectively a lot of crazy stuff happening. So first, not only is Natalie in the catering truck, which is just a weird kind of situation to be in with your superior fine. Not only she running after the golf cart in Bedminster and there's photographic proof of this, which is also a weird move. She doesn't have a security clearance and she has literally refused to have a security clearance until the president was like, yo, I'm the leader of the free world. Everyone who works on the Westling has had a background check and now you have to too. She's been working in the White House without a security clearance. This is fucking weird. Yeah. I mean, why would he let her do this? There are so many things that don't make sense. It's like why her? I guess if you have bad eyesight, which Donald Trump does, that's why he has a hard time reading and why the font on his hats keeps getting bigger and bigger because he can't see it. He won't get glasses because he's vain. But I think if you squint and kind of stand a little bit, if I took my contacts out and I still like 10 feet away from Natalie Harp, I would say she looks a little bit like Ivanka. Like she's styled herself Ivanka like. I mean, it's not hard. I mean, it's not like Ivanka has a distinctive kind of style. I mean, like she's an average looking blonde with some nice clothes with a good sheath dress. Her sheath dress game is strong. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she's got I think the best fake chin in washing. She's no tilde Swinton. Like that bitch can dress. Yeah. So it's not sexist. I find all of that, this is a distraction. They do this all the time. They always say the thing that they're actually doing and then attribute it to the other side. Mm-hmm. I mean, to take it even further to the, you know, people over comparing her to Glenn Close's character in fatal attraction, right? Yes. Yes. And Glenn Close's character in fatal attraction in that entire-- Alex. Yes. Famously, famously shredded by Susan Flutey's backlash. She thought that the movie was absolute trash and a reflection of like sexist attitudes toward women. But I do think knowing what I know now about Natalie Harp, knowing what everybody knows about Natalie Harp, what would happen if she were fired? Like, would she be okay? The bunnies better go underground. Yeah. Yeah. It does seem like she is not-- I don't think she'd take it well. She wouldn't take it well. I don't think-- No, I don't think she would take it well. And you know, just because somebody seems to like have a couple screws loose doesn't mean that they're not also shitty people. Like, she's the one that sourced the Obama meme. The Obama's-- Yes. The ape meme. Yes. She is behind some of Donald Trump's most incendiary public posts and a complete lack of professionalism. And like, her insane devotion to him is like, worrisome. I do want to know if she's responsible for-- thank you for your attention to this matter. Mm-hmm. Maybe. Because I kind of do love that. Like, like, how all of his truths and like that. Mm-hmm. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Yeah. I think thank you for your attention would be a good title for a biopic about Donald Trump after he's death. Yes. Okay. Let's pivot a little bit to another scourge. Unleashed on America by Donald Trump, Sean Duffy and his awful wife and the dumb show that they're trying to make. On Sean Duffy's new Great American Road Trip reality show, which is crazy just on its face that it even exists, but whatever. He discussed with his 18-year-old daughter whether or not he would let her go to Harvard, a college she's not even gotten into yet. But let's see what happened on the show when she asked. If I do get it, I feel like you can't say no. To Harvard? Yeah. Well, me and mom can say no. They have professionalized, figuring out how they can take good, young girls like you and I think corrupt their minds. I went to an extremely conservative school in high school. It was part of a extremely conservative family and that if I go to a liberal setting, that's a way more rounded education than if I go to a conservative high school and then go to a conservative college. That's just being kind of one-sided anyways. But they're so good at it. You'll see young people go to a conservative school with a conservative family and they get perverted and contorted. Okay, perverted and contorted. No, Melissa, you've got some experience in higher education. How many conservative, good conservative girls have you perverted and contorted? In the last five years, I think this was so interesting to me. It's always been my experience as a teacher. You're in the classroom for maybe two hours. Maybe some kids come by for office hours. I always try to play it down the middle in class and kids will be like, what do you think about this? I'm like, I don't know if you really want to know, go read what I wrote. Go do some research. You can figure it out. I'm an open book. But it is my experience that they come to us not fully formed but pretty fully formed about what they think. And I actually loved here that Paloma was genuinely the smartest person in the room who was actually doing some critical thinking here. She's like, listen, I've gone to this extremely conservative high school. You guys are really conservative and you've raised me like maybe being well-rounded would be going to Harvard and maybe hearing some other perspectives as opposed to going to Liberty University and just hearing this stuff that you've been telling me for my whole life. And that seemed right too. I mean, but like what is another thing? Like, I have a personal, I've got a lot of smoke with Sean Duffy more so than the average American. He's from near where I grew up. He's from Hayward, Wisconsin. And he was my parents representative in Congress. So embarrassing, so embarrassing. But I just, what does he know about Harvard? That's my question. Because I'm looking at you. Just what they tell him. Yeah. But like, how much time has he spent on that campus? Has he audited a class? Does he know that many people who like went to Harvard?
Harvard and I'm not talking about Jared Kushner. Like, people who really got into Harvard, like, what does he know, what is he talking about? And so I just love this whole idea that you will be perverted and contorted. Like, college is sworked as a way. Like, what are we doing? I mean, you're gonna go to class. You're gonna read some stuff that maybe you've read before you're gonna hear new takes on it. You're gonna hear your classmates. And like, to be very clear, there are conservatives on college campuses. Ask me how I know. Like, I mean, they act like everyone in the university is like a pinko leftist commie. 100%. John, you was my colleague at Berkeley. Wrote the torture memo. Oh yeah, we went to lunch together. I mean, like, he was my only one. And you couldn't pervert him. Melissa, I tried. I tried to turn him. I didn't, right? He's still a Republican. Yeah. I mean, I don't get this. It is such a weird, just a weird viewpoint that I have the power to turn your daughter in a semester after she literally spent 18 years living in the Campos Duffy Metaverse. Like, I'm gonna turn her. Yeah, that is, it is interesting. And also her-- I can't even get my daughter to read Jane Austen. How am I gonna turn her daughter? I mean, it just feels very asumptive to that she just assumed she's gonna get into Harvard. Like, even though she's smart, she seems smart. But there's a lot of smart people who apply, even smart people who are celebrities or who are related to government officials who apply to Harvard or who have senators right letters for them who don't get in. It's like not, it's not a guarantee. Something tells me the daughter of the secretary of transportation and in about conservative is going to be highly sought after at a liberal school. But-- And a allegedly liberal school, like Harvard. But, what about Baron Trump? Baron Trump, I'm pretty sure didn't get into Harvard in Colombia and I think that started the whole, like, fracas with the schools. I don't think it had anything to do with it. This is just speculation, by the way. I think he didn't get into Harvard. We don't know. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know. All right, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back with my interview with Kate Glaven. (upbeat music) - History is brought to you by Newtrophil. There's something about summer that gets you out of your routine in a good way. More travel, more time outside, more spontaneous plans. The last thing I want to spend time stressing about is my hair. That's why I've appreciated having Newtrophil as part of my daily routine. It's an easy habit that helps me feel more confident every day. Newtrophil is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. 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Well, I'm really excited to have you on today because I've been dying to dive into the mysterious case of Gwyneth Peltro. Like in the past few months, she's kind of-- she's playing footsie with some techno-fascism. She's just about to say that. Yeah, yeah. She started an ad for luxury Israeli housing. Hosted an AI defense contractor on her podcast. And just last week, there was an invitation to a dinner. She's hosting an honor of Sam Altman, who is a certifiable ghoul. And that was leaked by Pucks, Matthew Bellany. What's going on with Gwyneth Peltro? Kate, help me understand. Ever since I've learned about Gwyneth Peltro against my will, probably more related to her wellness stuff in 2017 when Goop was really coming up and people were buying the Yoni eggs, like you said. I've always been very suspicious of the type of wellness that she's selling to her audience, quite literally, because she sells so many products. I think her brand of wellness is one that's of telling people to avoid looking at structural problems. So she will sell you a water filter for your house instead of telling people that, yeah, we should all go to our city council meetings and organize around our local EPA. So it's really making people think about individual consumerism. And I think the latest shit she's been doing, I think is the final extension of that. I think people are really sick of being sold stuff through wellness products. And now she has to go where the money is, which is like AI, it's defense systems, it's having this dinner for Sam Altman, but it's really worrying to me every time I go and look at her profiles, right? Because she seems to keep having millions of followers. That's the thing that scares me, right? She is an evil individual, but I think the type of wellness that she's created in the US and how she's inspired other women to kind of ignore these structural stuff that's happening with the Trump administration and just to go buy cute little supplements. I think that is a very dangerous ideology that she's been able to spread. Yeah, you know what, you bringing up the absolute denial of structural problems and how consumer wellness really emphasizes individualism and kind of de-emphasizes community responsibility. That kind of, something clicked in my head when you were saying that. And it's like, oh yeah, that absolutely comports with her cozying up to Sam Altman. Because I feel like the techno-fascist Silicon Valley nightmare men all kind of subscribe to this notion of radical individualism and that is the solution to all of the world's problems rather than coming together and collectively solving problems or having any responsibility for each other or for our communities. Why is Goop symbolized to you in the wellness space in addition to the denial of that structural issue? 'Cause it does feel like elite as well, right? Totally. She would not want to see her products stocked at a Walmart. She only wants to be at Aeroan and at like the most expensive grocery stores in the US. So even before this like techno-fascist arc that she's on, I think the way that she's created products and how she's invested into making really inaccessible wellness products on her website Goop. I think that's always been a sign for me that she only cares about the wealthy. She only cares about the elite. She's never put her money towards, I don't know, like food banks across America or like telling people to register to vote for progressive politicians who are gonna fight for healthcare in America. And I think on another podcast before these like three latest things, she was kind of laughing like, I think my husband thinks I'm a Republican, but I'm not. I don't feel anything at all. And I think that's the dangerous part of this wellness because like you said, the individualism, it makes people forget about your neighbors. I get really worried about people who subscribe to this 'cause it feels like they truly have blinders on to everything else. And I think another aspect of it too is just like,
the colonization within the wellness industry, right? I mean, she's profiting off of so many herbal remedies and ancient traditions that her bloodline did not create. So I think that's another icky part of the wellness industry in the US too, that there's no reparations for communities who have always been using things like ashwagando or different teas or different supplements. I think that's another evil part of it all too, the profiting. Yeah, it does feel pretty evil. And I think her presenting herself as apolitical is really kind of annoying because is there a way for wellness to be apolitical? It seems like public health is inherently political. Yeah, I think about this a lot with my own podcast. I find a lot of wellness influencers, well, I'll back up. I have a burner TikTok account where I only scroll on maha side of the internet. Great exercise for just degrading my braid and all of this stuff that they're telling their audiences to do very dangerous advice. Everything from like coffee enemas to like giving your kids raw milk. Like anything in that category. And I think about all of these influencers and how they never discuss health. Like wellness and health seem to have no overlap to them. Like especially public health. There's never talking about policies or even just like health insurance. Like I've never seen a mention of that. I've never seen through all the tradwaves ever mentioned like maternity leave. And that's why there's just this in the wellness industry and on this content pipeline online. It's really dangerous because people are just thinking that like supplements are the cure to much deeper problems in America. And I really worry about like young impressionable girls that are like watching this content too and think yeah, I'm just gonna be a tradwife. I'm gonna take my beef tallow and they're not thinking about anything beyond their own individual consumption once again. Yeah, it also feels like I've noticed this zooming out a little bit, a kind of insidious push on the right in like the Maha adjacent right targeting mental health care, like real mental health care. That's like pharmaceutical mental health care. And by extension SSRIs. And how I feel like there's also a lot of tech fashion fascist people like Elon, et cetera, who have demonized mental health care and SSRIs. Do you see a path for a Gwyneth Peltro to eventually sell her brand of wellness as like an alternative to like traditional mental healthcare involving therapy and medication and possibly like real physicians? Yeah, I think that's the next step that is so dangerous. I remember another tidbit about Gwyneth Peltro probably back from like 2018. This one reporter found out that the ingredients in her supplements because it's like white label, right? They are exactly similar to Alex Jones supplements that he's selling. It's, you know, the marketing is entirely different. It's like testosterone boosting for men, female libido supplement. But I think that, yeah, I think that kind of explains this like circle that's happening or like I could imagine, you know, a Gwyneth Peltro type woman, you know, really having a lot in common with like an Alex Jones or an Elon Musk, like you said, because it's all about this like individual biohacking. And the wellness industry is not regulated either too, which is why it's so dangerous. I think a lot of people when they're consuming supplements and in whole foods looking for their things, they imagine, well, this is herbal. Like I'm just going to take this, this, this, this, people are up to 10 supplements. But like, you know, certain adaptogenic mushrooms really negatively interact with SSRIs. So it is risky. I think a lot of people think, well, big pharma is so bad and pharmaceutical drugs are so bad. Well, it's like at least they're tested. At least we know how they interact with, you know, different health conditions and medications you're taking. And so I think if Gwyneth Peltro were to position herself and I was like, yeah, making an alternative to SSRIs, a lot of people would probably end up in the hospital. If they were to go to the hospital even and like want to be in an ambulance or something, 'cause I've also seen a lot of people make content saying, like, oh my gosh, I'm in the hospital. And they made me take an IV and it has seed oils in it. Oh my God. Yeah, I think I saw one of those too. And I was like, why would it have, it doesn't have seed oil. What are you talking about? And also too, it's like, don't go to the hospital then. Yeah, yeah, right, right. Don't go to the circus if you don't like clowns. Don't go to the hospital if you don't like medicine. You know, if you don't want to do anything. It does feel, it also feels like in cities, I know this is like probably feeling a little bit free form to you, but I've been thinking a lot about like mental health and mental health care over these last weeks because I've been really following the Lindsay Clancy trial closely and all the ways that the system kind of failed her. And she actually did what she was supposed to do. She asked for help. She tried to get medication. She tried to see doctors and there's something that when I hear about this sort of wellness mindset that it's your responsibility, you can biohack your way into mental health. Is a dangerous way for women, especially to think that they can biohack themselves out of like postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis. Like how many people are going to just experience just the worst possible mental health crisis because they're trying to fix something that they can't just fix themselves. It's entirely just like Reagan repackaged in the wellness industry. Like pick yourself up from your bootstraps is like at the core of anyone who's trying to sell you something in the wellness industry. And I think this happens across so many issues related to women's health. I mean, on TikTok last summer, a lot of women in this maha crunchy space were really demonizing women who took an epidero. They're like, oh yeah, like you're taking the easy way out. Like you need to feel pain in order to have a child birth. Similarly, right now, like for, you know, I'm 27, probably more of my generation too, is like this demonization of birth control. I'm saying that it's poison. It's going to give you cancer. It has so many toxins in it. And I think the really dangerous thing too is like obviously the algorithms run with that content, right, it's sensationalist. It's really scaring people about like very personal health decisions. And it's such an overwhelmingly negative information environment that even I was like, oh, I'm kind of scared of birth control. I have no reason to think that right. I trust science. I believe in health care, love plan, parenthood, everything. But when you see it again and again and again and everyone in the comment section is taking of course their anecdotal negative experiences with birth control but then on social media, you know, the algorithm doesn't know if someone's an expert or not. And so it's pushing this content to young women who don't, they're probably not getting a sexual health education either. And this is kind of how they're learning about these things. I got an IUD two weeks ago and I said, you know what, I'm going to film my experience because I don't really see any content of anyone saying that yeah, it went well, right? Like no one's going to take the phone out after they get a surgery and be like, that was awesome. Thank you to my doctor. You only, you only hear like the negative experiences on social and so it really distorts a lot of health issues. And I think across so many different like medical innovations especially for women, they've been so dismissed and demonized by like maha. And I think it's really going to discourage people from seeking out health care, which is super dangerous. I mean, like trust and health is already at such a low especially after COVID too. Yeah, I mean, I think there's this also your comments kind of bring into light something that I think kind of slipperyness that the wellness industry uses with language where they can flate something being natural and something being good. Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's good for you. Like it's maybe more natural for you to not be on birth control, but is it good for you to be having like super heavy periods every single month? I don't think that's probably not what nature intended. Like nature probably intended us to be pregnant a lot more than we are, you know? But like, just because something is natural doesn't mean it's healthy, you know? And I think it's, I think when it has, and the people who have tried to imitate her other celebrities with wellness lines, et cetera, have tried to play with this notion that because it's not officially actual medicine that required like clinical trials that were published in journals, that means that it's better for you. And that feels very insidious to me. What about the AI aspect of this? Like why is, why is Gwyneth into AI? Is she just trying to get attention however she can? Are they just backing up a dump truck full of money? Like why, why AI do you think? - Right, like you'd think that she's doing well enough financially, right? Because I think there's a lot of discussion on social if like different creators and influencers do deals with meta for the AI glasses, which I've critiqued before. I think it's very bizarre for people to be like doing this propaganda for meta to make this surveillance state. But I think with Gwyneth, it's like, you're at a certain echelon of celebrity where I'm sure you could get booked in like commercials for deodorant or like yogurt. Like isn't, like I don't know, maybe it's a sign that Goop is not doing so well. And also it's so funny too that to partner with AI when like I, in my opinion, I think being against AI is so, like that excitement about hating AI, hating flock cameras, hating data centers, feels so ripe across the country. I feel like hating data centers is like the only issue that's kind of uniting America right now. - And dolly Parton hating data centers and loving Dolly Parton or the two things that are bringing America together. - Oh, I know, that's a sad one to think about right now. But like I think Gwyneth, you know, I don't know how she's not reading the room. So part of me does think that she's just like rage baiting for fun to stay relevant. Like I do think as you age as a celebrity, especially with women, like you become less interesting and there's always someone new to kind of like replace, you know, the attention that you once got. So maybe it's like, she feels like her currency with Goop is, I don't know, falling off. I don't know anyone who is talking about her actual products at Goop anymore. I don't hear anyone saying that, like, yeah, change my life. - Mm-hmm. I think there's also something where like, eventually you have so much privilege and so much wealth that you become like a silly rich lady. And like there's something that I think there's something inherent to American culture where we kind of like to point and laugh still be here.
rich ladies. And that's not completely bereft of sexism. It doesn't mean, but they are still silly rich ladies. And I think Gwen of Peltro being cartoonishly out of touch is almost like a spectator sport at this point. It's like, oh, God, look what she did now. Oh, did you hear that she has a vagina candle and now she's hosting Sam Altman at her house. It feels like ridiculousness theater that we're all enjoying. But at the same time, she must have some like real fans left, right? Yeah, you would think so at least. I feel like within New York LA, maybe there has to be some people that are really against what she's doing. And I'd imagine she has a lot of fans that are in like the LGBTQ+ community. I do see a lot of people that are like Gen Z quite often like making memes about Gwen of. So I think what you said, like she is this kind of certain echelon of status where she's a meme to people. I always see people quoting the like, I like to find the balance between cigarette and tofu, which is a Gwen of Peltro quote. Like, oh, yeah, she's so relatable just like me as I walk through like Manhattan, you know, going before my nine to five or something. Like it is a weird kind of lane that she's carved out. And part of me does think she's untouchable. But I do get scared because so many women who have been like drinking the Gwen of Peltro Kool-Aid in the wellness industry, like that is a certain level of like ideology that's baked in. And it's really hard to get people to think outside of it. Like I've had a lot of one-on-one conversations with white women, I will say, in the wellness industry and just ignoring anything political and refusing to believe that wellness is impacted by politics is it's hard to get them to listen, which is interesting now that they're all getting politically activated with maha, right? But previously, it's like, I don't do politics. Why would I, I'm just, I'm taking, I'm drinking tea. Why is that politics? Yeah, I mean, but there were like entire geopolitical, like seismic developments happening because people were fighting over spices and tea. So food is inherently a political and has been throughout human history. I have a fun question for you. As a wellness enthusiast and skeptic, what is something that the health wellness industry has introduced into your life that you genuinely like? I feel like when I was younger especially, I was vegan for a bit, started, you know, going into health stores and looking for different supplements and herbal remedies. And one thing I really love is acupuncture, which I don't think is woo-woo by any means. I think oftentimes in the wellness conversations, right? People will say, well, there's no clinical research about this one Eastern medicine practice, right? And it's like, well, if you think about how the Western medicine system works, I don't think doctors are just going to go willy-nilly study Ashwaganda, right? Because the way that these studies happen, like they're not going to prioritize Eastern medicine. And so that's to say just because something doesn't have clinical data to back it up, that doesn't mean it's not valid or it doesn't have a history to it for people using it for good. There's a really good book about this called Why the Woo-Woo Works. And basically this doctor is going and studying a lot of Eastern practices. And like, you know, if you believe that something is going to impact you for better the placebo effect, like probably well a little bit. So acupuncture, I really love. I do really love a sauna. I hate that the men that are living in Austin, Texas have really like taken sauna and cold plunge culture and just made it so broy and annoying. Like, I've never been to Austin. I don't think I need to in this current stage of like, what's happening there, at least on my social media feed. So I do love sauna, cold plunge. I'm also a marathon runner. So love to run. But that's that's a whole other thing to do. Running is now. No, no, no, no, no. But you know, it's funny. You know acupuncture is legit because it helps animals. Like, oh, yeah, there's a there's a pet acupuncture clinic not far from me. Yes, I do live in Los Angeles. And I took my cat there a couple times when she was still alive. And it really gave her some relief. Like, it's so weird. Yeah, she would just sit there purring and they would like put little things in her and she would just sit there for like 10 minutes and then they'd take them out and she felt better. I love that. I need to do that. I just brought my cats internationally from London to Minnesota. So they were sitting on a plane for nine hours. I feel like they need some of that. I also another woo woo thing. I got in my feed that I kind of want to do is go to a pet psychic. I don't know if you've seen that, but like, it's a Zoom call for 15 minutes with a pet psychic. They don't see your pet. You just describe it. And then they tell you what it's feeling. And this one guy had a success story where he told the psychic, like, my little Yorkie dog has been peeing on the floor for two years. I'm at my withsend. I'm going to just trust the woo woo. And the psychic told him your dog really wants to eat a hot dog. We was at it. Fed the Yorkie hot dog and dog peed outside for the first time. And the psychic said the previous owner of this dog that you adopted was a mobile in a wheelchair and all she could feed the dog was hot dogs. And it's like, look, if it works, what am I to say? I mean, if you've ever had an animal that has makes mistakes on the floor, you get desperate. So I totally get it. I totally get it. I'm going to look up that pet psychic. Kate Glavin, that is all the time we have for this interview. Thank you so much for stopping by. Come by anytime. Love talking woo woo culture with you because I like you. I'm a skeptic and an enthusiast. So thank you so much for your podcast. And thank you so much for coming today. Thank you so much, Aaron. So fun to chat. Histeri has brought you by Balesa. Stop what you're doing and listen closely because Balesa and I are giving away free spicy toys or gift cards for every single one of you. That's right. Everyone who signs up wins something. If you haven't heard of Balesa, let me put you on. They're a company that completely is flipping the script on sexual wellness. And now they're hooking you up. You've definitely seen Balesa's popular toys all over your for you page, like the ultra blow, the most advanced stoker yet, with powerful motion and innovative features, the ultra blow delivers an elevated life-like experience that goes way beyond the usual, or the rose. It blew up for a reason. This little flower-shaped toy is cute and discrete, but delivers 10 different suction modes. Iconic. And of course, we had to hook all of you up. So our friends at Balesa and us are sending out free toys or gift cards for everyone who signs up. You heard that right. Every single one of you wins something. Just click the link in the episode description or head to bbvibes.com/histeria. That's b-b-v-i-b-e-s.com/hti-r-i-a. And welcome back. You're listening to Histeria, the podcast for people who know that the WNBA is way cooler than the NBA. Right? It's true. I mean, Ellie, the elephant is not at the next games. No. Ellie is not at the next. Ellie and five. Ellie and Olivia Miles is only at links games. So I just have to say, I was so before we get into Sanny Petty, I just want to talk for a second about just like the way that the WNBA has become kind of a lightning rod for controversy and cultural battles. And it just like it really pisses me off. And I don't want to sound like one of the parents from get out here. But like it pisses me off that this space, this league that was built on the backs of queer people and black people. And those people were playing in the WNBA when it was thankless. And it had very few eyeballs. And like they weren't able to fill up stadiums. And this is the biggest year they've ever had the WNBA. It is expanding its fan base beyond anything it has ever in the past. Like the quality of basketball is fucking amazing. And then we have, and then also Olivia Miles just watch. There's like a 16 minute like like clip reel of her highlights from the air. And she's just I love her so much. She's so amazing. They call her the spectacle because she wears glasses. But anyway, amid all of this great stuff for the league, there's this fucking cloutery that's been happening. This is from CNN last weekend, former NBA center, and his canter freedom, former NBA center. I just want to say he sucked in the NBA. He was ejected from Sunday nights, Indiana, Chicago, WNBA game after Skyguard Natasha Cloud yelled and pointed in his direction, laid in the third quarter. But that's not all that happened. He was sitting along the baseline. He stood up. He was wearing a shirt that said, woman, now adult human female, it was like an anti-trans messaging. The fever called for a timeout after Cloud scored inside. Cloud then went to confront canter who held his arms out and took a step under the court. That's her workplace. You can't fucking do that. You know what? If they want to call a technical on a player yelling at a fan, fine, if she's breaking the rules, whatever. But like you can't step like he stepped under the court. And he got ejected from the game and he was trying to protest. I guess like he's trying to protest, he's trying to protect women's sports by showing up to a women's sporting event, disrupting it and getting it in a confrontation with a female athlete. Is that what he's trying to do? That seems what the goal is. Let me just say first of all, you know, the Supreme Court has a hand in this. Very recently, the court in a series of cases, two cases that were consolidated for review basically said that states could ban trans athletes from women's sports. I just want to point out how dangerous this is for all female athletes. Like, how do you know who's trans? I mean, this is basically licensing now. We're doing body checks on all female athletes. That's not creepy. All because
Some people think that trans athletes are invariably stepping in or going to create an unsafe environment for other athletes on the field. Again, I have to just say this, like we get so much crap when we talk about these cases on strict scrutiny and we get all the turf in our mentions. I get that there are those who want to make this argument that trans people impede the safety and rights of women. I want you just to make clear that the same jurisprudence that undergirds the rights of trans people is the same jurisprudence that undergirds the rights of women. When you start trimming back, that jurisprudence start trimming back the rights of trans people, you're inevitably fucking over the rights of women. It's inevitable because it's the same set of cases. Our feats are linked and if you don't like trans people, don't become one. It's like abortion. Just don't do it. Just let people be. It's also like, these are sports. They are games. People are losing their fucking minds about who is playing a game with whom. Most of whom, I don't think that there are very many WNBA players who are that militant about the anti-trans thing. Oofy Cunningham has said a few things, but she doesn't seem like super-safety. They're not having big confrontations. People are coming to WNBA games and throwing dildos on the court and antagonizing players with political messaging that the players honestly don't care about. It's so frustrating that this space that is 100% safe space for queer people, safe space for black people, a place that was built by black women. All these fucking men are coming in. That's why. Isn't that kind of why? Just think about all of the attacks on people like Serena Williams, for example. She's so good. She's so good she can't possibly be a cis woman. There's something else going on. She's been basically called out as not really being womanly. All kinds of black women get that kind of treatment, not just in sports, but in other places like, you know, they're too masculine, they're too this, they're too that. This whole transfer, anti-transferver is again another way to just continue the attacks on women of color who don't meet your expectations of traditional femininity. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, WNBA is awesome and people should just tune in to watch games that are not just like fever games where they expect some middling, washed up guy in his mid-30s to show up in a provocative shirt. Just watch, watch more WNBA because everyone should watch it. It's fucking good. I wish Ellie the elephant had been there because she would have stepped to that guy. Oh, she would have like whipped her braid and like whipped his ass. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. We need to get Ellie some self-defense training and she could just take a guy down. I think she already has self-defense training. You think she already has it? I saw her wear it. I met her personally. You have. Ellie can beat a bitch. Oh my God. What did you say to her? Was it like you're Mickey Mouse? I will send you the photos like I look so happy because I am. She's fantastic. Like, I've never seen anyone dance so effortlessly as Ellie the elephant. Fantastic. Just amazing moves like usher. Oh, yeah. No, Ellie the elephant is amazing. There's a new mascot before we move on to Santa Fe. I swear, I'm almost done with my WNBA rantings. There is a expansion team from the WNBA that's going to start in Portland and they just unveiled their new mascot. Like a pink dragon that breathes glitter. I love it. I love it. I hate glitter. I'm not going down, but glitter. Well, you don't have to clean the stadium. You can just go to the game and enjoy the spectacle and then watch the maintenance crew figure out how to clean the glitter off the basketball courts. I'm here for a pink dragon. I'm not here for glitter. Okay. All right. Fair enough. All right. Before we get to Santa Fe petty some announcements for the class. If you haven't already, don't forget to check out Longplay. Our mini series about what it will take for us to win again in the south. It's hosted by our Emmy nominated host and friend Jennifer Palmieri. Jen is joined by another friend of hysteria award-winning journalist Aaron Haynes and former New Orleans mayor Mitch Landryu. Jen, Aaron and Mitch have spent months traveling across the south from North Carolina to Texas. They talk to voters, politicians, strategists, and organizers to discover what it will take to finally turn the south blue. You can binge the entire series right now by heading to Longplay series on YouTube or check it out wherever you get your podcasts. Now, let's get to Santa Fe petty. I'm going to go first because Melissa, you're the guest. So you get to go last. Mine is quick. My sanity corner is Dolly Parton's catalog. Dolly Parton passed away earlier this week at 80 years old. She was living, Saint Angel. So important to so many people, to so many communities, as we mentioned before. I've just been listening to a lot of Dolly Parton music classics from early in her career, like Mule Skinner Blues, and then some of her stuff that she did in collaboration with other artists. I mean, even listen to Hard Candy Christmas, which I think is the best Christmas song. Like she's just such a talented musician. And when she teams up with other artists, she elevates them and they both have the best come out of it. I think she teamed up with Beyoncé, too, on a, yeah, I haven't made it that far in the catalog yet, but there's a lot of Dolly Parton music and it's all really good. So that's my sanity corner. It's Hard Candy Christmas from the best little whorehouse in Texas. I'm not sure, I listened to it from a Christmas album. So it might be from the best little whorehouse in Texas, but I'm not, I'm just, I mean, just like that movie just sounds amazing. Oh, yeah, 100%. I've never seen it. I wasn't allowed to, but you're a grown-up now. No, I can't. You're right. You're right. You can do it. I do think she elevates so many other people. I thought she was so under sun in Steel Magnolia's movie with so many amazing actors. And you can't take your eyes off of her when she's in a scene. And she's just fantastic. She's amazing. Yeah. She's amazing. R-I-P. All right. Melissa, what is, are you have a sanity corner or are you feeling petty? I feel bad after that amazing sanity corner that I'm going to do a petty. I can't. I'm a forego. I can't help it. So my petty that I'm loving this week is Oreo Gate. So I don't know who knows about this, but there is a woman on Instagram, Ashley Jam. So this is another reason why I need Instagram Meta controls over my feed to shut it all down because I spend too much time at night looking at these. But this woman, Ashley Jam, who's a content creator on Instagram, basically took what may or may not be a real mom's group WhatsApp chat and turned it into a kind of musical, like a sort of hairspray, like musical, by feeding it through Suno. But it all centers on the fact that a woman does not want her daughter to have Oreos and one of the school friends, her mother packs Oreos in the lunch box. And so the kid sees the Oreos. She's very upset. She's crying. The mother gets into the group chat. Please don't bring the Oreos. It's making Ava upset. And the other women are like, what, like you can't tell me what to do. I mean, like, it's like surrogacy, consent, and agency at the highest levels. And it just goes back and forth. It escalates, and then the daughter is trading her yogurt for Oreos with the other kids. And then the mom is looking in other kids' lunch box, and it's all set to this kind of musical theater kind of score. It's hilarious. There are nine parts so far. There may be more. I didn't check this morning, but it's so funny, Ashley Jambs. Okay. I'll have to check it out. That does sound really funny. And just for the record, associate producer Claire thinks this whole thing is fake. Did you ever have banned foods for your kids that you're like, you're not allowed to have it? So I tried to do this, but I have a husband who literally loves process cereal. So we started this thing called summer cereal, where in the summer, we go off Cheerios and they'd have like lucky charms, but then I was like, how's this going to work when school's back in session? And I was so right. It didn't work. We had to keep summer cereal year round. So I lost control very early on. Oh my gosh. That's so funny. Yeah. I've given up trying to as long as my kids are eating at this point, I'm like, oh God, they ate something good. Yeah. Otherwise, it's just going to be like, I just, I just need them to be nourished somehow. All right. Well, that's all the time we have for this week's episode of hysteria. Melissa Murray, thank you so much for joining me this episode. It was a delight. Thanks for having me. Yeah, of course. Come back anytime. And also, thank you to Kate Glavin for her interview with me and for talking about what a poltero and goop. Listeners, if you want to get in touch,
[email protected] is the way to do that. And there will be more hysteria for you next week. hysteria is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Caroline Reston, Claire Fogarty, Kendra James, Adrian Hill, and me, Erin Ryan. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Rachel Gaierski, Dylan Villanueva, Claudia Shang, Mia Kelman, Jay Banks, Charlotte Landis, and Jordan Cantor. Our staff is probably unionized with the writers Guild of America East.
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