Can Soccer Save the World?

(upbeat music) Welcome back to Pazative America, I'm Tommy Vittor. The final game of the 2026 FIFA World Cup is now about a week away and I am already genuinely sad that this is about to be over. The tournament has taken me from casual fan to full on World Cup junkie and I don't know what I'm gonna do going forward to not do work at the office 'cause we just have the games on all day. And what makes this all the more remarkable is that before the World Cup began, there was a global sense of anxiety and concern about holding this tournament in Donald Trump's America. Fans from all around the world were worried about ice raids, visa restrictions, travel bans, and then also issues with FIFA itself, like the exorbitant price of tickets. That one was not resolved by the way. And while there have been some unfortunate incidents, mostly the conversation has been about the excitement around the US men's team, at least at first, the unbelievable quality of the games themselves, the incredible finishes, and the joy of watching fans from around the world come to America, fall in love with our cities, our culture, inhale food from waffle house and serenade stadiums with songs and even Viking chants. And it has served as a reminder to a lot of us, I think, that we live in a great country and one that is defined by its people and not by its politics. So today, to dig into all things World Cup, I'm thrilled to be joined by soccer royalty. Gary Linnaker, he's a former England striker, broadcaster and co-founder of Goal Hanger. He was one of the greatest soccer players of his generation, the guy who had a hat trick in the '86 World Cup. Incredible. Gary played in one of the most famous soccer games in history against Argentinian legend Diego Maradona. And today, he's one of Britain's best-known sports broadcasters, and he's one who has used his platform to speak out about social justice issues and has even been criticized for statements he's made, which we'll get into in the interview. Today, Gary is the host of an excellent soccer podcast called The Rest His Football, which you can catch on Netflix throughout the World Cup. And if you're in the market for a new podcast, check out Goal Hanger. They've got a bunch of great shows, The Rest His History, The Rest His Politics, The List Goes On. And another great way to support progressive independent media is to become a friend of the pod subscriber here with Crooked Media. You'll get ad-free episodes of Pots of America. You'll get other great Crooked shows like Pots of the World as ad-free as well. You'll get tons of bonus content, including bonus Pots of America episodes. You get deep dives into the polling. The latest polls from Dan Pfeiffer. There's great newsletters, much, much more. So becoming a paid subscriber, it's a single best way you can support our work and help us grow. So if you like what we're doing, please consider it. And with that, here's my conversation with Gary Linnaker. - So Gary, I'm a casual soccer fan who has become obsessed with this World Cup. So it's really, it's a pleasure for me to talk to a soccer legend like you. As someone who played in two World Cups for England, you covered soccer for decades. What are your impressions of the tournament so far? - I think it's been quite joyous at times. There are always, with all big tournaments, especially the World Cup, there are always pros and cons. But I think, by and large, it's gone spectacularly well in many ways. On the pitch, I think the foot was been really good. And some brilliant games, some cracking stories of underdogs, you know, Cape Verde, for example. I think the real joy has probably been the way the fans have celebrated not just their own victories, but celebrated together and kind of shown a lovely humanity and togetherness that we've probably not seen previously and perhaps it's a little message to the world that we can get on, even if we're on from all parts of the world. So I think that's been wonderful. The tournament's building up now, obviously, to the crescendo, the excitement, the big final. But I think it's been way better than I actually thought it would be, there are obviously going into it like we're doing all World Cups. We always think there are gonna be things that go wrong and that have been and things that we perhaps don't like. But overall, I think it's been a triumph, really. Yeah, I mean, that was sort of why I was wondering. I mean, the lead up to the tournament, there was a lot of anxiety about, you know, Trump administration policies, the impact on the quality of play from the expansion of the tournament to more teams, ticket prices. I know that one has not been resolved 'cause I've been on stuff. Oh my God. People don't love FIFA generally, right? Johnny Infantino and given the, you know, fucking FIFA piece prize and stuff. But once the game started, the conversation shifted to the play on the field, the clips of, you know, the Scottish fans at Fenway Park singing, you know, through the seventh inning of a game. Is that like just what happens every FIFA World Cup? Like there's anxieties and then the play starts and we move on, or what do you make of it? Yeah, that's pretty much how it works. So you go, I've covered so many, so many World Cups and I've played in a couple of them. And prior to the World Cup, everyone expresses their fears and their concerns. There's a lot of anticipation, excitement as well, the positive side, but also, you know, you go, but let's not go back too far, but let's go to 2014 in Brazil. All the fans were like thousands and thousands of people on the streets demonstrating the fact that they're spending so much money on the World Cup, stadiums, et cetera, rather than the infrastructure and perhaps the health service in Brazil. Roll on four years, we're in Russia. Four years previously, they invaded Crimea. So that was, you know, massive concern. When we got on to Qatar and there was a concern about LGBTQ+ rights, people had been dying, building the stadiums. But again, and going into this one, we're obviously worried about the situation who's going to be allowed into this country, and which we never had before. We did have concerns, obviously. When the summary, the Somalian referee wasn't allowed in. Yeah. And, but, you know, everyone was worried about ice taking fans off the streets, but that's thankfully not really transpired. So yeah, it was ever thus, really. And, you know, join the World Cups. There are always things that you don't like, and there's been things like, you said the ticket price, and I think it's outrageous. FIFA is supposed to be a non-for-profit organization. They've got billions of pounds, or dollars, or euros in Swiss banks. And obviously, they always say it goes back into the game and a lot of it, of course, does. But I don't think it's right when you've got something as special as a World Cup, that profit becomes the most important thing, rather than the experience of football fans. I don't think it's right that fans should have to take out a mortgage or sell their car to get a ticket to go watch a football match. So I don't like that. I don't like the interference we've had in this World Cup in terms of what happened with Balagan. The American forward that was, you got a red card, which was, I thought, a really poor decision. But they didn't reverse the decision. They just postponed the fact that he's suspension. So which felt wrong. And now we've got an English player in exactly the same position. He's got two game ban. So you just think, how can this possibly happen? So there are always things in the tournament. But I think the positives far outweigh the negatives. Overall. Yeah, FIFA's, well, I want to ask you about FIFA in a bit. I'm sure they're a non-profit. I would love to see what the line item is for Johnny Infantino's private jet this month, because he's had a lot of games that are far away. And boy, they cut to him a bunch during the broadcast. I've noticed before we get to that, though. So you played on some of the biggest professional clubs in England, also in Spain. You played for England in 80 international games. How does the feeling of stepping onto the field at the World Cup compare to those other big games in moments? Nothing like it. We're representing your country, the World Cup. I think it's the most special thing you can ever do. I would compare it probably to an athlete in the Olympic games. That's their moment every four years. But this is sort of-- it's a little bit different to just a medall table compare-- you know, the US is always there with China. And it's always the same people, because there's so many different sports involved. But football is kind of a global sport. Even you guys have joined in a little bit now. You try a bit of interest, I've noticed. So which is great. So it's a chance, really. I don't think there's anything like it where you can show your patriotiveness supporting your country. But at the same time, we can all get on and enjoy it. So it is unique. And when you walk out, you know, representing your country, and you stand there, and they're playing the national anthem. And especially if things go well. I mean, it's hard to describe. It's just like this is huge explosion of joy and pride. It's amazing. You had a hat trick against Poland in the 1986 World Cup. They were going through some shit at the time. You know, they had one party rule. They had Chernobyl. Did you feel bad about that? At all. Did you feel bad about beating them that bad? I don't-- if I'm really honest, not particularly. I mean, obviously, then, touch. some terrible things in all countries suffer at different times and we've been responsible for a lot of it over hundreds of years. But when you run that football pitch you just want to play and you want to score and you want to win and it's nothing like. You were tougher on that country than communism even. That was a tough game. Now you transitioned from player to broadcaster to podcaster. Do you ever feel bad about taking podcast jobs away from unethnathletic slubs that used to have them? I don't think I've done that. I think we've added lots of podcasts. I've got a company called Gol Hanoi. You got some unethnathletic slubs on the payroll. We've definitely got some of those. Say some downloads for the rest of us. We've got political pods as well. Yeah, you do. You have some great ones. So you mentioned this earlier, the story about Trump calling the FIFA president to lift the suspension against one of America's best players, Flow Balrogens, we could play against Belgium. So the US, we got worked in that game. We lost badly. So the suspension of Balrogens Red Card didn't matter much in terms of the outcome of that specific game. But as you said, that decision is going to be, it's going to hang around FIFA's neck for a long time. So do you think Balrogens deserved a Red Card on the play? What does the international reaction been to what FIFA did? How big a deal is this? It's a pretty big deal because I think it goes against the integrity of our sport. You've got to have rules and they've got to be fair. And they've got to be the same for everyone. You can't have one rule for one and one rule for another. Not in our sport. And we've never had anything I don't think quite like this before. Whilst it probably, well, it most certainly didn't make any difference. Or it might have had some kind of negative effect on America's performance, with all the holo below around this. So I don't think so. I mean, Belgium were always likely to be the US. It's not your, obviously, primary sport in this country. You're on a road. I think you're on a journey to where football is growing in this country. You've got a league now that's, you know, you've got one or two of the best players in the world. Messi's here. So I think it is growing, but I've always wondered why in terms of FIFA, they're so obsessed with trying to get America to be super interested in our sport. Because if ever you are, if you ever get all your real athletes playing out game, you might be bloody good and that would be really irritating. Yeah, I hear you. I mean, look, I knew we were in trouble in that game. Well, we were in trouble already, but when Belgium subbed in a striker, who had been named League MVP in the Serie A, late in the game, the sky, Lukaku, and then we subbed in the former coach's son, who played for an MLS club in Canada, that kind of told you everything about the quality of the players who were out there. Yeah, of course. [MUSIC] Pots of America is brought to you by Z-biotics. I love Z-biotics. It's awesome. Love it. Take it before a night with drinks. It's called pre-alcohol. Z-biotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works when you drink alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. 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But let me ask you about that USD though. So I got to see the USD play against Panama. It was one of the most fun experiences period. I've ever been to sports, whatever concerts, anything. Everyone left that stadium full of hope and excitement and saying the same thing like this is our breakout year. And throughout the group stage, we looked pretty good. We were operating them. We felt like we're operating on a different level. And then Belgium shows up. And they kicked a shit out of us. And it's an unbiased outsider. Like give it to a straight Gary. Were we actually any better this year, the US team? And what do you think happened against Belgium? Well, I think I remember being interviewed early on after the. Before the tournament and you're always asked obviously how the host nation will go. One of the host nations, America, which I know I always said. If they got to the last 16, I think that would be a really good effort. I couldn't really seriously see them getting past anyone that was any good. I could proper your big European team on the North African side. But I thought the fact that they did so well in the group stage was a real plus for the states and the tournament as a whole. But you want the host nations doing reasonably well. So if I'm really honest, rather than being diplomatic, I would say that's as far as I ever saw them going. It's funny, after that first game you talked about the Panama game when they had that incredible first half. And it was really good to see. And I know Mauricio really well, Pogetini's a delightful man. And I'm really pleased for him for that. And it was a terrific performance. All my American friends were coming at me and texting me and saying, you were wrong about us, we're going to go all the way and I was going, mate. Honestly, I know these world cups and it's always the hope that kills you. As soon as you start believing a little bit, it all goes wrong. As an Englishman, I'm very experienced in many times. But overall, I thought they did pretty well. I think the Palava surrounding Balaghan's thing did. I don't think it helped them. I think Mauricio missed the trick there. I think he should have just said, no, we're not doing that. It's not right. I think he would have been a very difficult thing to do. And if they'd have lost in the same way, having done that, he would have been probably hung out to dry. So it's easy for me to say that. But I think it probably had some kind of effect. But overall, you've got half a good team, but there's not much depth yet. Hopefully the sport will grow, but we'll see. Yeah, Pochettino did sat Balaghan. I think he might have been the first guy thrown into ice detention while in a stadium by Trump. So a challenging situation to be in. What do you make of the criticism of America's star player, Christian Policic? He did not have a great world cup. He subbed himself off with an injury. I've seen some former US men's national team players specifically criticizing him, which feels. I'm sure it's painful for him, but what do you make of this? I think it's a little unfair because I think his abilities were taken to look out proportion. I mean, Policist is a very good player. Very, very good footballer. He's had a good career. He's played in England. He's played in Italy. He's a good footballer. He's on all the billboards here. We're doing the star show from here in front of Times Square. And he's everywhere. Well, it's almost like he's messy or Ronaldo. With all due respect, he's a very good footballer, but he's not a great player. He's not one of the best in the world by a long stretch. But I think when you're carrying the hearts of a nation and the hopes of a nation, that pressure was probably so much. I feel for him, actually, because whilst it's probably exciting to be treated as the big superstar of a world cup. In reality, that was never realistically going down. happen. So I couldn't sympathize with him to a degree. He doesn't deserve all the criticism. Football is very, very hard. It's difficult. You know, you play as best players in the world, and they're out to stop you. I played as a forward on my career. And we have these things called defenders. They're out there to stop you. I hope I cropped. They'll try it in some way. Every World Cup, we kind of talk about, is this the US's year? Are we going to take soccer to the next level? And to the point where it's kind of become a running joke. But what would that entail? Is that more developed in the professional level? Are we talking about getting more kids involved? All of the above? All of the above really. You've got a long way to go. You've got a league now, which is, you know, you've had a league before. Obviously, we didn't quite work. We've started again. Now, you've got a league. You need to work out a plan for useful football. I mean, obviously, you've set great examples in the women's game. You know, you're probably the best in the world that I would say. They're amazing. But you need a, I think, that needs an overall plan, and where you've got to really, I think, concentrate on the young, the youth players, the kids, get them taught properly. I know, I spend a lot of time in America over the years, and I've been to, I've seen that there's a lot of football camps, but you need some kind of proper organisation, probably led by the various MLS clubs around the country where they can recruit the best talent and get them properly trained and coached. Obviously, you've got a very different system to us and Europe in all football, really, of how you deal with players that go in that are young. So, in our country, for example, and the same applies across Europe, if you've got any hope of being a soccer player, you've got to join a club when you're 16, you're education, they will give you education on the side, but you have to start at 16. Obviously, in America, with your sports, they go to college, or they go to university, and they get draft picks. And by, you know, if you do that in football, it's too late, it's too late. By the time you're 20, there will be, you know, Zoysam examples that will prove that wrong, but not that many. So, I think the whole, I think you really need to have a good think and a proper planning in terms of not just wait for a World Cup and then hope it goes well, but build a long-term future. Look, 10, 20, 30 years ahead, because it is realistically going to take that long fear to challenge. So, 20, 30, 20, 30 is what you're telling me. So, yeah. So, let me talk about ice cream with FIFA. FIFA famously corrupt organization. In 2015, you know, we watched a bunch of FIFA officials get dragged out of a hotel in Zurich and their underwear. They were indicted for taking bribes. It's like $150 million in bribes, all these sports marketing executives too. DOJ is accused FIFA of accepting bribes from reps from, you know, Russia and Qatar to get those hosting rights in those countries. Set bladder, the former president of a FIFA, he's currently banned from soccer-related activities. Johnny Infantino, the new guy, doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. I don't know. I'm, you know, a casual watching this stuff. Given how much money stand to be made from international soccer, do you have hope of reforming the organization and what would that even look like? I've been hoping for that for a long time. I find it quite depressing. Particularly the cases you talked about, I was in the room when Qatar and Russia were given the world. I didn't have a particular problem with Russia. It's a big football organization that never hosted it. And I don't really have a problem with it being in the Middle East and Qatar either, but what hurt, what made it feel dirty, it was so obvious that the bits were corrupt. And it was literally proved to be the case that a lot of them took backhanders for their votes. So I remember thinking this is just truly awful for a game. And then obviously it changed. Infantino came in. I met him. He's a nice guy. I spent time with him. And I was hopeful. I was really hopeful that this would be a change. I don't think for one minute now they're putting bongs to people, putting packets full of cash to get votes for the World Cup or individuals or who's going to host it. But I don't like the fact that they're making that much money. And I don't see why they need to do that because yes, it goes back into the game, but does it? Does it? We don't really know. It's all a little bit secretive in the Swiss banks. So it concerns me. But the sport itself is good. But I think it's the same in all things. If you look at politics across the world, and then the example of this World Cup, where all fans come together and actually we just want to get on. I think 90% of the world just want to have a life. They want to be able to afford to have you know, eat, they want to have a nice home and just get on with it. And I think actually we really like each other. But it's the people at the top, the leaders, the leaders of whether it's governments or FIFA. They just don't seem to get that. I don't know whether it's greed or it's ego or whatever it is, but I find it very depressing. Yeah, me too. Pots of America is brought to you by Helix. I have the Helix Don Lux and I love it. It's very soft and comfortable. He looks over 20 mattress models so you can find the perfect model for you. How do you know which mattress is right? You take the Helix sleep quiz. 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I love making our shows with the smart creative people who work here and hearing from all of you who was in every week. But the thing that I'm proudest of is that video we made of you vegramas while me grunting while hitting baseballs. No wait, sorry. The thing I'm proudest of is the work we do through votes of America. See, we don't want our shows to only leave you feeling anxious about the state of the world. We want to give you something you can actually do about it. Just this year, our listeners have raised millions of dollars and filled thousands of volunteer chefs to help candidates and causes into 2026 midterms. And we have no plans to slow down as we head into 2028. As far as I know, there's no other media company that does what Cricket does. We make entertaining, thoughtful content that brings people into politics and then we give them a direct way to get involved. And if you believe in that mission, one of the best ways to support us is by becoming a paid subscriber. Your subscription helps us keep making the shows you love and building a media company that doesn't just talk about politics, but helps people change them. And if the mission sounds great, but you feel like you need some sweet subscriber benefits to get you over the finish line, we've got you covered. Subscribers get ad free shows, plus excellent exclusive podcasts, newsletters, and much, much more. So thank you for listening and supporting what we do. Head to Cricket.com/FriendsToday to learn more and become a subscriber. One challenge we've had here in the US is sports gambling. It's really exploded in the US in 2018. There was a Supreme Court ruling that jacely opened up sports gambling in all sorts of states. A lot of sports league, the professional leagues have embraced gambling and the money it brings in. But now, like no surprise, we're seeing indictments and players getting charged with like illegal betting schemes and point shaving and yada yada yada. Do you worry about the impact of sports betting on the integrity of professional soccer? It seems a lot harder to fix a soccer game that it is to do like an over-under on like free throws made. It's difficult. I'm not going to be naive here and say it doesn't go on because I think there are certain things and with things have been proven and you know, you can bet on absolutely almost anything now. We've had betting in our country for a long time, but you can bet on how many corners and whether a player is going to get a yellow card. That opens it up to possible dodgy goings on. So that concerns me. Overall, at the top level, players earn so much money that I don't think there will obviously be the odd exception. I don't think players will be bought, but it is a worry for me. I mean, people can have a bet. I have no problem if somebody wants to bet on something, but what I don't like is the attitude of the betting companies and the way they entice you. I don't know whether it's the same in America, but you know, in England they'll entice them in with a very attractive looking bet, you know, like Belgium to beat USA 2021 I don't know how you do the odds in this country but and then they'll get them in, but to do that bet, which is going to win, you've got to get an account. And so then you eat there in. And once they're in, I mean, it ruins the life. I think killing and back place, speak out against the gambling culture in around football and I absolutely totally agree with him. I don't have, you know, the rest is football that I do. We've always refused gambling adverts. For example, I won't get involved in that. So, yeah, I think it is a concern. And it's something that we really need to keep an eye on. Yeah, absolutely. I especially worry about how seamless and easy it's become to just lay bet after bet after bet from your phone on your couch. Like there's no friction, there's no bookie, there's no casino, there's no nothing, you're just going like this. It's, it's, it's, it's terrifying because it's, it's so addictive as well. I mean, I mean, I thought to people that work with people in various addictions, whether it's, you know, alcohol drugs, they say the hardest one to kick is the gambling addiction. As a broadcaster after your career, I mean, you've been outspoken about a number of issues, including, you know, immigration rights, the Warren Gaza. I know that the BBC, your former employer didn't always love you talking about issues that were not soccer. In the US, athletes are often scolded for having political opinions or talking about social issues. Fox News host famously told LeBron James to shut up and dribble, which is a very nice way to talk to someone. How did you think about when and how to speak out and, and, and about what issues? I think it came with social media because suddenly you get a platform, whereas before social media, unless you're asked in the occasional interview, which I was occasionally about certain things outside of football, you don't really get the opportunity to share your views. I've always felt strongly and tried to, you know, stand up for humanitarian rights, et cetera. And so I think it's, I understand why most sports people don't get involved because she do get a lot of shit when you do it. I got that as well. But it's generally shit from people with some kind of vested interest in the opposite view to that you've got. And it's generally from the people that clamber, go on and on and on about free speech. They, you know, it's free speech. But as soon as you do it as a sports person, you know, oh no, you stick to, you stick to talking about football. Right. We don't want to hear your political opinions. But yeah, I, I, I suppose I got, I started voicing my concerns about various things on social media. And, and it went from, from there, really. But I just, sometimes if I see something where I think there's a dreadful wrong going on, I just feel the need to, to speak up about it. And I understand why some people don't because it can make your life very difficult. But for me, I, the only person you can control really is yourself. Yeah. You know, if you go home at the end of the day and look yourself in the mirror and you think, okay, I did the right thing today, it probably doesn't make any difference to anybody. Um, but you've got to live with yourself. Yeah. Well, I think it makes a difference. Listen, I, I think it's, we live in a world where people are very cynical. And when they see someone they know and they trust because they've watched you on TV for 20 years, talking about the war and Gaza, for example, I think that matters. And it makes people think about stuff they might otherwise not have thought about and not have heard about. But also, you know, back to our conversation about like the, the friction free gambling and the ease of social media, I know it makes it like almost too easy to speak out on things. Sometimes like I know you had an incident where you shared a video that included some offensive imagery. You deleted it. You unreservedly apologize. You said it was a mistake. You didn't see, you know, the image in there, you never would have shared. But like, did that make you feel like chasing and want to retreat from conversations or how, how did you deal with that? I mean, I've had a few incidents over my career with BBC because, you know, they have this big partiality rules that actually didn't apply to people outside of news and current affairs. But then they moved, they moved the goalposts and made it through for everyone. But I'd also got into that habit of thinking, so I'd had a couple of fall outs with them prior. And I always felt I was in the right on, on those. But the last one that kind of made my decision to leave the BBC a little bit earlier was that genuinely concern because that was, you know, absolutely an honest era. I was posting something and there was a little tiny rat emoji on the post, which I genuinely didn't see. I mean, I am stupid, but I'm not that stupid enough to have posted that deliberately. And, you know, I was made aware that it's apparently some kind of antisemitic trope, although, you know, why rodents would ever be compared with human beings, I don't know. But obviously, as soon as I was aware about "Took It Straight Down" and I apologize, but I felt bad about that because that was my fault. I should have been more vigilant and I should have seen it, and but I didn't. But as soon as that did, I took it down. So that wasn't easy. That was a tough few days because I wasn't pleased with myself on that one. But it was one of those things, and sometimes things happen for a reason. I think I've been at the BBC for 30 years and it's like a long marriage in the end, you gently fall out. You go your separate way. You just have to move on there. One last question about social issues in soccer. I mean, there's just a shocking amount of racism in international soccer. I mean, earlier this week, a senator in Paraguay tweeted like some vile stuff about Killian and Bappe, who, for those who don't know, is this unbelievably good guy. He's the best player on the French team. He's one of the best in the world. It's hard not to like him, but he's been this ongoing fight with him now. A couple of years ago, England lost in the finals of the European Championship game, and then three black players on the team were subjected with this deluge of racist abuse on social media. And I know FIFA has run all these anti-racism campaigns, but you see critics say it's really just marketing. It's not substance. Do you think there's more that FIFA and international football should do to kind of punish and prevent this behavior? I think they genuinely do try to be honest and there will be supportive. I can speak for the Premier League. I think they do a lot of good in this area, and it's not just performative stuff, but they do some really important things. I think unfortunately, and as we see a lot in the world nowadays, there will always be isolated attacks on people. You talked about the Paraguayan senators, I believe, that cast abuse on killing them back in. It was outrageously racist, and I wasn't even trying to hide it. And then he responded, and then she responded again, claiming to be the victim, and it was quite absurd. And you talked about the three penalty takers for it, and that's a load of people on social media. As we all know, I don't think they were viewed shared by the vast majority, but there is an issue not just in sport, but in every walk of life in terms of racism. And again, I'll go to sometimes the people at the top, the people in our governments. Do they do it? Do they do enough? Is it a football issue or is it a societal issue? I think it's the latter, and you just need more from your governments, and you need them to set a good example, not a bad example. Yeah, well, you're not going to get a lot of help from the United States on that front. I have to agree with you. Indeed. Not sending our best to over in the U.S. Pots in America is brought to you by Smalls. Smalls makes fresh human-grade food for cats. It's made from the same stuff you or I would eat, but formulated specifically to help cats thrive. Cats are obligate carnivores. 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My name is Elijah Cohn, and I've been a producer here at Cricket Media for a decade. I love making our shows with the smart creative people who work here and hearing from all of you who listen every week. But the thing that I'm proudest of is that video we've made of your vegramas while me grunting while hitting baseball has. No wait, sorry. The thing I'm proudest of is the work we do through Votes Abe America. Just this year, our listeners have raised millions of dollars and filled thousands of volunteer chefs to help candidates and causes into 2026 midterms, and we have no plans to slow down as we head into 2028. We make entertaining, thoughtful content that brings people into politics, and then we give them a direct way to get involved. Your subscription helps us keep making the shows you love and building a media company that It doesn't just talk about politics, but it helps people change. And if the mission sounds great but you feel like you need some sweet subscriber benefits to get you over the finish line, we've got you covered. Subscribers get ad free shows, plus excellent exclusive podcasts, newsletters, and much much more. Head to Crooked.com/FriendsToday to learn more and become a subscriber. All right, let's do some fun stuff to end this. So back to the World Cup, France looks unstoppable. Spain has unbelievable talent. I got to see them in person against Austria here in LA. Argentina has messy, Norway has Holland, England has stacked. We're recording this Friday before the Spain Belgium game, but at the moment, who do you think is best positioned to win this thing? When is this going to, when are we, when are we, when are we, we're going to every Sunday? So we're going to drop Sunday. So I'm going to look a fool there on stack. Both of us. Yeah, yeah. I put it to Morocco. I was going to win it all. So I'll start it. Yeah. Well, yeah, good. We do know that result. We've already had that one. So I, I, I can't see Belgium living with Spain, I think Spain, wouldn't that relatively comfortably. Then I go, England, Norway, it sounds like England should win easily, but Norway are going to be tough. Well, one man, he's, he's like a, he's a, he's the most Viking looking guy I've ever seen in my life. He's, and he's a great guy. I know Erling really well, I've interviewed him a few times, and he's got a lovely sense of humor. Boy, can he play, can he finish, I mean, he just scores goals. So he's going, if we, if England can stop him, they'll have a good chance. I think England have to be slight folks. I'm going to go with England. I can't not go with England. I know. I know. I know myself, but you know, I, I just want to happen in my, I, I was too young to remember 1966 when England won the World Cup for their, for the only time. So I've suffered so many times. I just want, I just want us to win it before I die. Just ones, just ones, please. So, but yeah, so I'll go England, and then I, I think Argentine should beat, so it, I think Switzerland done really well to get to the court finals, but I think, I think their time is probably up in the little fellas, just too good, man. Messi's just too good. Everyone in Boston, where I'm from, fell in love with the Scottish fans. You know, they were singing at Fenway Park, they were, they were drinking the bars, you know, out of beer. Were they that lovable when you were playing against them, the Tartan Army? Were they fuck? They were horrendous. Yeah, but they don't like us very much, I mean, I, I think they've probably got good reason, but, um, in history, but, uh, no, they, they, um, they were tough to play against, but it's, the weird thing is, as English, we actually really enjoyed what Scotland were doing, the fans stuff, and we, we, I genuinely wanted, we genuinely want them to do well. The opposite is true for them. I know. They desperately want us to lose every single time we play, so, um, but their fans were made, their fans, I think they won the World Cup, the fan World Cup, I think, um, but, you know, but then you got the Japanese and the Mexicans were incredible. I mean, all the English fans were slightly apprehensive about going to Mexico City, um, with Mexico's fans, and they all were a little bit nervous, but every single one of them was come away saying, how amazing it was, how wonderful the Mexican fans were, how they treated the English fans, how they all huged together on the final whistle, even despite that extraordinary game where, where, and Mexico played so well with great heart. And it was, and that for me is, is the most beautiful thing about this competition. It, it really was. There was an amazing image of that. I think it was, um, a bunch of fans from Colombia, I think when they played, uh, DR Congo, and there was one guy from the Congo in this giant sea of yellow jerseys holding up his phone, singing his national anthem by himself, and everyone respectfully kept quiet and they all jumped and hugged him after and it was just, you know, the beautiful moment. Yeah. Some of those things, I mean, it could teach us all of that. Yeah. Can football save the world? Hey, hey, I think you're working on it. I don't think they're a go-hanger. Uh, you, you played your whole career without getting a single yellow or a red card? How was that possible? I never tackled anyone, stayed away from all that, no, no, no, um, yeah, it, when I played, it was, they didn't dish out yellow cards like they quite as theatrically and it's quite as frequently as they do now. So there was a degree of that, but having said that, I don't, I'm not sure there's anyone else done it, but it was madry. I don't know. I haven't got a temper. I haven't, I don't really have a temper, so I was never going to, you know, lambaster referee. I could win you a little bit, but I just, I didn't call them any terrible names. Um, and I, yeah, I wasn't overly physical as a player. Um, and I got kicked a lot, but the thing is, you know, can that make, what, that can make you angry sometimes, but the truth is the only time it really makes you angry is when it hurts a lot and you lean on the floor for a minute and by the time you, for the time you've been treated, you're okay again, your temper's like gone down, so, yeah, a variety of reasons, but it is, it's just a bit mad. I didn't even think about, until near the end of my career and people started saying, "It's never been booked, it's never any yellow card." And, and then I started to think, you know, I was, it was in my mind a little bit on occasions. Um, and I just thought, maybe in my last ever game, I remember playing my last ever match, I was thinking, maybe I should just punch you, right? I was thinking that too, go ahead and blaze of glory, just beat the shit out of the goalie. Yeah. Exactly. Actually, I wouldn't mess with the goalies, those guys look like sick. No, no, they're big. They're big. Jesus Christ. Yeah, they are mad. I was told to ask about the closest you ever came to getting carded? I don't know if that's a story there. I was in Spain, funnily enough. I was very, he went to his pocket and my offense was laughing at his decision. He made a ridiculous decision. I just burst into laughter and he went with the pocket and I said to him, "You're going to give me a yellow card for laughing?" And he put his hand back and that was it. Oh, you're laughing in his face? I was just, I was just laughing out loud, not in his face. Oh, got to, got to. I was just laughing at that sudden decision he'd make. Oh, that sounds fun. I love when the refs get pissy. You know, you can tell when they have a little bit of an ego. You played in the infamous or famous, just famous, hand of God game against Diego Maradona in the 1986 World Cup. Can you tell listeners who might be unfamiliar with that game just a bit about what happened in Maradona because it's like, it is, is it the most famous game in history? I kind of feel like it is. I think it is. I think because of a variety of reasons, four years previously, the two countries were at war with the Falklands, called Malbeness, as they call it. So that had an effect. And then it was built up before of this, that, you know, our Argentina are going to revenge England's war victory, if you like to call it that. So that was a big deal and they had the Argentinian side at Diego Maradona, who was the greatest football that I certainly played against, I played with him once as well. He was the best of his time in terms for me, the best players ever have been to two Argentinians and a Brazilian Pele, Maradona and now Messi, Messi for me beats them all. But Maradona was playing in this game and it was pretty awful first half for the most famous game in history. But the second half kind of heated up a bit. The ball lumped into the air and Diego Wetzert had it, but in the end he punched it over our goalkeeper's head. Now, I hate the air, it's done to our game, but I could have done with it that day. So he punched it in and there was obviously those huge ramifications for that and then just a few minutes later, he scored what I think is the greatest goal that's ever been scored in the football match. I've seen a couple of similar ones, Messi scored one very similar, but you have to take into account, this was a quarter-final of a World Cup in Mexico City in the Azteca with these two huge countries and Diego doing what he did was it's the one time where I was on a pitch and somebody did something on the opposite side where I felt I ought to applaud. I didn't because that would not have gone down very well at home. And then after that I scored the goal that no one remembers, there you go, there you go, my proof, I scored with my head and then in the very last seconds of the game a ball came across again from John Barnes, our left-winger who made a massive difference in the game. Fliped it over, I was coming at the thought, I knew I was going to score and from somewhere a lot of good chair there, their left back came up and it hit the back of his head and went out. So that was, yeah, which I'm almost over it now, it's only 40 years on. I was going to say after all these years, does it still hurt to have lost or it's just cool to have been a part of history? I think it's cool to have been a part of that, that history, I'm sure. That's a good thing. I still would have preferred to have won. You out, yes, yes. Folks should go on YouTube and check out the really beautiful tribute you did to Maradona when he passed away. It's worth watching. Would you ever run for office? No. That's the easiest question you asked. Nope. I'm interested in politics but have no interest in being a politician. What about what's his name, Benny McBinface, Count Binface, that guy who keeps running? Count Binface, yeah, no, Count Binface. Would we like his platform? I like his head. For those of you that are this guy who wear it. It's kind of dressed like Star Wars and wears a trash can on his head and he runs in every special election. Yeah, he runs every way, so every kind of bi-election that he'll turn up. But normally, there's a load of other politicians as well. But it does appear that in this bi-election in Clackton, which has been completely manufactured by Nigel Farage to time, distract from his murky goings on and he's grifting. So, but it doesn't look like any of the other parties in our country are going to put up a politician to run against him. So, it might be that Farage runs against Count Bimfeis. And if Count Bimfeis wants, that will be the greatest day in political history. Let's make it happen. Oh my god, if Count Bimfeis beats Nigel Farage, I will laugh so hard. It would be so much better than Liz Cross and the lettuce or anything else. It would be even better. It would be wonderful. Final question for you. So, my buddy Roger Bennett encouraged me to be an Everton fan a couple of years ago. I have to say, it hasn't been the most fun winning experience. But I watched the World Cup and I see the England goalie who plays for Everton, Jordan Pickford playing lights out. You see former Everton players like Lukaku's scoring for Belgium. What is Everton doing? What do we need to do to get them back on track? Well, I played for Everton way back. Yeah, one year that was amazing. My best season scored a hell of a lot of goals. Best team I played for. In the mid 80s they were brilliant, such a strong side. You know, they've been through the middle a little bit and things haven't quite happened for a long time. They've picked up a bit of late, but yeah, it's a great football club though. And that's what support and I'm sure it's the same in American sports. The suffering makes it the awful times make the good times better as long as you do get some good times at some point. Yeah, I got to tell you, as a Red Sox fan, we were like the lovable losers for years and years and years. I feel sort of akin to how England feels about winning a World Cup and then we started winning everything. There's a bit of you that misses the hurt and misses the underdog and now everyone just hates us, you know. Yeah, well, that's what happens when you get successful. So what do you want? You want to be successful wind trophies, have loads of joy or do you want to everyone to hate you? Really, it's a tough call. I think the former last last. I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. Last last question. Is playing in Barcelona, playing in Spain the most fun thing in the world? That seems so cool. Playing for Barcelona is amazing. I mean, I was there for three years. It's a monstrously big football club. It's a bit of a madhouse, but it's so special. And especially when you play those games against Real Madrid, let's call them the classic coast. I mean, it's like nothing you can imagine. The first one I ever played in, I scored a hat trick, three goals in the game. And we won three, two, and there were 120,000 people in the stadium. And every single one of them was a Barcelona fan. There was no way fans. There were no, because I don't know whether you get that in the American sports, whether you get many fans that travel to watch the team play, I don't know. But in England, we do. We're a small country. It's quite easy to get around to the way to the way grounds. But this was like, honestly, I scored two goals in the first five minutes. I had goosebumps all over me with the noise and it was so special. And those games are so big. But my three years there were probably the highlight of my career. I bet you didn't pay for your tapas very often when you went out. That must have been a happy fan base. They were very sweet. They were very sweet at the bar. And the weird thing is they were so respectful. They never, like, they wouldn't bother you too much. They'd see you and they'd not. But they wouldn't. I mean, I don't know. That's probably changed now. Yeah, I think the camera phone changed that. Everyone's like, click, click, click. Listen, Gary, I've taken up enough of your time. Thank you so much for doing the show. Everyone should check out the rest of the football. Everything goal hangers doing, you guys make amazing shows just, you know, just a hit machine over there. So thank you for your time. Check out the show on Netflix also, by the way, and enjoy the rest of World Cup. Thank you for the plug and thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. Truly my pleasure. Paz de America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts and Ferris Safari, with Reed Churlin, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Heffko, Charlotte Landis, David Tolls, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Sengle. Our staff is probably unionized with the writer's Guild of America East. Hey, everyone. My name is Elijah Cohn, and I've been a producer here at Crooked Media for a decade. But the thing that I'm proudest of, is that video we made of Yvesek Ramaswami grunting while hitting baseballs. No wait, sorry. Just this year, our listeners have raised millions of dollars and filled thousands of volunteer shifts to help candidates and causes into 2026 midterms. As far as I know, there's no other media company that does what Crooked does. Your subscription helps us keep making the shows you love in building a media company that doesn't just talk about politics, but helps people change them. Subscribers get ad-free shows, plus excellent exclusive podcasts, newsletters, and much, much more. Head to Crooked.com/friends today to learn more and become a subscriber.