Can Soccer Save the World?

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See packages and options at Toyota.com for future availability. Welcome back to Pod Save America, I'm Tommy Vitor. The final game of the 2026 FIFA World Cup is now about a week away. And I am already genuinely. Genuinely sad that this is about to be over. The tournament has taken me from casual fan to full-on World Cup junkie. And I don't know what I'm going to do going forward to not do work at the office. Because we just have the games on all day. And what makes this all the more remarkable is that before the World Cup began, there was a global sense of anxiety and concern about holding this tournament in Donald Trump's America. Fans from all around the world were worried about ice raids. Visa restrictions, travel bans. And then also, you know, issues with FIFA itself, like the exorbitant price of tickets. That one was not resolved, by the way. And while there have been some unfortunate incidents, mostly the conversation has been about the excitement around the U.S. men's team, at least at first, the unbelievable quality of the games themselves, the incredible finishes, and the joy of watching fans from around the world come to America, fall in love with our cities, our culture, inhale food from. Waffle House and serenade stadiums with songs and even Viking chants. And it has served as a reminder to a lot of us, I think, that we live in a great country. And one that is defined by its people and not by its politics. So today, to dig into all things World Cup, I'm thrilled to be joined by soccer royalty. Gary Lineker, he's a former England striker, broadcaster, and co-founder of Goalhanger. He was one of the greatest soccer players of his generation. The guy had a hat trick in the 86 World Cup. Incredible. Gary played in one of the most famous soccer games in history against Argentinian legend Diego Maradona. And today, he's one of Britain's best-known sports broadcasters. And he's one who has used his platform to speak out about social justice issues and has even been criticized for statements he's made, which we'll get into in the interview. Today, Gary is the host of an excellent soccer podcast called The Rest Is Football, which you can catch on Netflix throughout the World Cup. And if you're in the market for a new podcast, check out Goalhanger. They've got a bunch of great shows. The Rest Is History, The Rest Is Politics, the list goes on. And another great way to support progressive independent media is to become a friend of the pod subscriber here with Crooked Media. You'll get ad-free episodes of Pod Save America. You'll get other great Crooked shows, like Pod Save the World is ad-free as well. You'll get tons of bonus content, including bonus Pod Save America episodes. You get deep dives into the polling, the latest polls from Dan Pfeiffer. There's great newsletters, much, much more. So becoming a paid subscriber, it's the single best way you can support our work and help us grow. So if you like what we're doing, please consider it. And with that, here's my conversation. So Gary, I'm a casual soccer fan who has become obsessed with this World Cup. So it's really, it's a pleasure for me to talk to a soccer legend like you. As someone who played in two World Cups for England, you've covered soccer for decades. What are your impressions of the tournament so far? I think it's been quite joyous at times. There are always, with all big tournaments, especially the World Cup, there are always pros and cons. But I think by and large, it's gone spectacularly well in many ways. On the pitch, I think the football's been really good. And some brilliant games, some cracking stories of underdogs, you know, Cape Verde, for example. I think the real joy has probably been the way the fans have celebrated, not just their own victories, but celebrated together and kind of shown a lovely humanity and togetherness. That we've probably not seen previously. And perhaps it's a little message to the world that we can get on. Yeah. Even if we're on from all parts of the world. So I think that's been, that's been wonderful. The tournament's building up now, obviously, to the crescendo, the excitement, the big final. But I think it's been way better than I actually thought it would be. They're obviously going into it like we do in all World Cups. We always think there's, you know, there are going to be things that are going to go wrong. And there have been. And things that we perhaps don't like. But overall, I think it's been, I think it's been a triumph, really. Yeah. I mean, that was sort of why I was wondering. I mean, in the lead up to the tournament, there was a lot of anxiety about, you know, Trump administration policies, the impact on the quality of play from the expansion of the tournament to more teams, ticket prices. I know that one has not been resolved because I've been on stuff up and, oh my God. People don't love FIFA generally, right? Gianni Infantino. And given the, you know, fucking FIFA Peace Prize and stuff. But once the game started, the conversation shifted to the play on the field, the clips of, you know, the Scottish fans at Fenway Park singing, you know, through the seventh inning of a game. Is that like just what happens every FIFA World Cup? Like there's anxieties and then the play starts and we move on or what do you make of it? Yeah, that's pretty much how it works. So you go, I've covered so many, so many World Cups and I've played in a couple of them. And prior to the World Cup, everyone expresses their fears and their concerns. I mean, there's a lot of anticipation, excitement as well, the positive side. But also, you know, I go back, let's not go back too far, but let's go to 2014 in Brazil. All the fans with thousands and thousands of people on the streets demonstrating the fact that they're spending so much money on the World Cup, stadiums, et cetera, rather than the infrastructure and perhaps the health service in Brazil. Roll on four years, we're in Russia. Four years previously, they'd invaded Crimea. So that was, you know, a massive concern. When we go on to Qatar and there was concerns about LGBTQ+ rights, people had been dying, building the stadiums. But again, going into this one, we're obviously worried about the situation, who's going to be allowed into this country, which we never had before. We did have concerns, obviously, when the referee, the Somalian referee, wasn't allowed in. Yeah. And, but, you know, everyone was worried about ICE taking fans off the streets, but that's thankfully not really transpired. So, yeah, it was ever thus, really. And, you know, during the World Cups, there are always things that you don't like. And there's been things like, you said the ticket price, and I think it's outrageous. I mean, FIFA is supposed to be a non-for-profit organization. They've got billions of pounds or dollars or euros in the. In Swiss banks. And obviously, they always say it goes back into the game, and a lot of it, of course, does. But I don't think it's right when you've got something as special as a World Cup, that profit becomes the most important thing, rather than the experience of football fans. I don't think it's right that fans should have to take out a mortgage or sell their car to get a ticket to go and watch a football match. So, I don't like that. I don't like the interference we've had in this World Cup in terms of what happened with Balogun, the American forward that was. He got a red card, which was, I thought, a really poor decision, but they didn't reverse the decision. They just postponed the fact that he's suspension, which felt wrong. And now we've got an English player in exactly the same position. He's got two-game ban. So, you just think, how can this possibly happen? So, there are always things in the tournament. Yeah. The positives far outweigh the negatives overall. Yeah. FIFA is a. Well, I want to ask you about FIFA in a bit. Yeah. I'm sure they're a nonprofit. I would love to see what the line item is for Gianni Infantino's private jet this month, because he's at a lot of games that are far away. And, boy, they cut to him a bunch during the broadcast, I've noticed. Before we get to that, though, so you played on some of the biggest professional clubs in England, also in Spain. You played for England in 80 international games. How does the feeling of stepping onto the field at the World Cup compare to those other big games? Nothing like it. Representing your country at a World Cup, I think it's the most special thing you can ever do. I would compare it probably to an athlete in the Olympic Games. That's their moment every four years. But this is sort of. It's a little bit different to just a medal table compared. You know, the US are always there with China, and it's always the same people, because there's so many different sports involved. But. But football is kind of a global thing. global sport um even you guys have joined in a little bit now you're trying a bit of interest i've noticed um so which is which is great um so it's a chance really i don't think there's anything like it where you can show your patrioticness um supporting your country but at the same time we we can all get on and enjoy it so um it is unique and when you walk out you know representing your country and you stand there and they're playing the national anthem and especially if things go well i mean it's it's just it's hard to describe it's just like it's just like this is huge um explosion of of joy and pride it's it's amazing you had a hat trick against poland in the 1986 world cup they were going through some shit at the time you know they had one party rule they had chernobyl did you feel bad about that at all do you feel bad about you know beating them that bad um i don't if i'm really honest not particularly i mean obviously some terrible things um um in in all countries suffer at different at different times and um and and we've been we've been responsible for a lot of it um over hundreds of years but um no when you're on that football pitch you just want to play and you want to score and you want to win and you you know it's it's nothing like you were tougher on that country than than communism even i mean that was a tough game uh now you transition from from player to broadcaster to podcaster do you ever feel bad about taking podcasting jobs away from you away from unathletic schlubs that used to have them i don't think i've done that um i think we've added lots of podcasts i've got a company um called gold hanger you got some some unathletic schlubs on the payroll you feel like we've definitely got some of those okay save some downloads for the rest of us all right we've got we've got political pods as well yeah yeah no you do you have some great ones so you you mentioned this earlier that the story about trump calling the fifa president to lift the suspension against one of america's best players flow against we could play against belgium so the u.s um we got worked in that game we lost badly so the suspension of balligan's red card didn't matter much in terms of the outcome of that specific game but as you said that decision is going to be uh it's going to hang around fifa's neck for a long time so do you think balligan deserved a red card on the play and like what is the international reaction been to what fifa did how big a deal is this it's it's a pretty big deal because i think it it goes against the integrity of our sport um you know you've you've got to have rules and they've got to be fair and they've got to be the same for everyone you can't have you know one rule for one and one rule for another not not in our sport um so and we've never had anything i don't think quite like this before so you know whilst it probably well it most certainly didn't make any difference or it might have had some kind of negative effect on america's performance with all the hullabaloo around around the story i don't think so i mean belgium are always likely to beat um the us it's you know it's not your obviously your primary sport in this country um you're up you're on a road i think you're on a journey to where football is is growing um in this country and you've got a league now that's you know you got one or two of the best players in the world messi's messi's here so i think it is growing but i've always wondered why we why in in terms of fifa that they're so obsessed with trying to get to be super interested in our sport because if ever you are if you ever get all your real athletes playing our game you might be bloody good and that would be really irritating yeah i i hear you i mean look i knew we were in trouble in that game well we were in trouble already but when belgium subbed in a striker who had been named uh league mvp in the syria late in the game this guy lukaku and then we subbed in the former coach's son who played for an mls club in canada that kind of told you everything about the quality of the players who were out there of course pod save america is brought to you by zbiotics i love zbiotics it's awesome love it take it before a night with drinks it's called pre-alcohol zbiotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic it was invented by phd scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking here's how it works when you drink alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut it's a buildup of this byproduct not dehydration that's to blame for rough days after drinking pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down just remember to make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow uh i use it all the time it's whenever i know that you know what i'm gonna i'm gonna drink tonight i'm gonna have one i'm gonna have drinks i have two drinks throw 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as a dog parent sunday starts with 80 plus all natural meats and then add superfoods like kale ginger and blueberries no fillers no nutritional blends no chemicals just simple complete nutrition and the best part sundays requires no fridge no freezer no prep no mess and sundays just launched a brand new fish recipe it's made with 80 whole and minced fish including eco-friendly invasive carp source from american rivers for a naturally rich flavor plus it's packed with omega-3 fatty acids that help support healthy skin shiny coats joints and brain function it's complete and balanced nutrition for all of life's stages a little behind the scenes here so uh john's dog leo was in the office today along with pundit yeah love its dog john kept putting sundays in leo's bowl leo would try to start to eat it get distracted and then it comes there was a battle for that food these dogs absolutely love that food and i've noticed from both of them more energy better moods more calm and focused softer coats less itching you know pundit has been itching less yeah a little bit yeah she looks good make the switch to sundays go right now to sundays for dogs.com slash crooked and get 50 off your first order or you can use the code crooked to check out that's 50 off your first order at sundays for dogs.com slash crooked sundays for dogs.com slash crooked or use the code crooked at checkout let me ask you about that us team though so i got to see the us team play against panama it was one of the most fun experiences period i've ever been to sports whatever concerts anything everyone left that stadium full of hope and excitement and saying the same thing like this is our breakout year and throughout the group stage we look pretty good we were operating and felt like we're operating on a different level and then belgium shows up uh and they kick the shit out of us and it's an unbiased outsider like give it to us straight gary were we actually any better this year the us team and what do you think happened against belgium well i i think i remember being interviewed early on after the um before the tournament and you're always asked obviously how the host nation will go or one of those nations uh america which and i always said if they got to the last 16 i think that would be a really good effort um i i couldn't really seriously see them getting past anyone that was any good like a proper big european team on the north african side but i thought the fact that they did so well in the group stage was a real plus for for the states and the tournament as a whole because you want the host nations uh doing reasonably well so um if i'm really honest rather than being diplomatic i would say that's as far as i ever saw them going you know and you know it's funny after that first game you talked about the panama game when they had incredible first half and it was really good to see and i know mauricio really well pochettino and he's he's a delightful man and i'm really pleased for him for that um and it it was a terrific performance all my american friends were coming at me and saying texting me and saying you were wrong about us we're gonna go all the way and i was i was going mate honestly i know these world cups and it's always the hope that kills you yeah as soon as you start believing a experienced in that. It's happened many, many times. But overall, I thought they did pretty well. I think the palaver surrounding Balagan's thing did, I don't think it helped them. I think if, I think Mauricio missed the trick there. I think he should have just said, no, we're not doing that. It's not right. I think he could, I think it would have been a very difficult thing to do. And if they'd have lost in the same way, having done that, he would have been probably hung out to dry. So it's easy for me to say that, but I think it probably had some kind of effect. But overall, you know, you've got, you've got half a good team, but there's not much depth yet. And hopefully the sport will grow, but we'll see. Yeah. Pochettino had sat Balagan. I think he might've been the first guy thrown into ice detention while in a stadium by Trump. So, you know, it's a challenging situation to be in. What do you make of the criticism of America's star player, Christian Pulisic? He did not win. He did not have a great World Cup. He subbed himself off with an injury. I've seen some former U.S. men's national team players specifically criticizing him, which feels, I'm sure that's painful for him, but what do you make of this? I think it's a little unfair because I think his abilities were taken a little bit out of proportion I mean Pulisic is a very good player very very good footballer he's had a good career he's played in England he's played in Italy he's a good footballer but you know when you obviously he's on all the billboards here I mean we're doing the show it from here in Times Square and he's everywhere. And you think, well, it's almost like he's Messi or Ronaldo. And with all due respect, he's a very good footballer, but he's not a great player. He's not one of the best in the world by a long stretch. But I think when you've got carrying the hearts of a nation and the hopes of a nation, that pressure was probably so much. So I feel for him, actually, because whilst it's probably exciting to be treated as the big superstar of a World Cup, in reality, that was never realistically going to happen. So I can sympathise with him to a degree. He doesn't deserve all the criticism. Football is very, very hard. It's difficult. You're playing best players in the world, and they're out to stop you. I've played as a forward all my career, and we have these things called defenders, and they're out there to stop you. By hook or by crook, they'll try it in some way. Every World Cup, we kind of talk about, is this the US's year? Are we going to take soccer to the next level? And it's to the point where it's kind of become a running joke. But what would that entail? Is that more developing the professional level? Are we talking about getting more kids involved, all of the above? All of the above, really. You've got a long way to go. You've got a league now, which is, you've had a league before. Obviously, it didn't quite work, and it started again. Now you've got a league. You need to work. Work out a plan for youth football. Obviously, you've set great examples in the women's game. You're probably the best in the world at that. Yeah, they're amazing. I would say they're amazing. But you need, I think, it needs an overall plan, and where you've got to really, I think, concentrate on the young, the youth players, the kids, get them taught properly. I know. I've spent a lot of time in America over the years, and I've been to, I've seen, there's a lot of football camps, but you need some kind of proper organisation, probably led by the various MLS clubs around the country where they can recruit the best talent and get them properly trained and coached. Obviously, you've got a very different system to us and Europe, in all football, really, of how you deal with players that are young. Say, in our country, for example, and the same applies across Europe, if you've got any hope of being a soccer player, you've got to join a club when you're 16, your education, they will give you education on the side, but you have to start at 16. Obviously, in America, with your sports, they go to college or they go to university and they get draft picks. And by, you know, if you do that in football, it's too late. It's too late. By the time you're 20, there will be, you know, there's always examples that will prove that wrong, but there are not that many. So, I think the whole, I think you really need to have a good think and a proper planning in terms of not just wait for a World Cup and then hope it goes well, but build a long-term future. Look 10, 20, 30 years ahead, because it is realistically going to take that long for you to challenge. - Sorry. - Sorry. - Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. - 2030 is our year, is what you're telling me. - Sorry. Yeah. - So, let me talk about, ask you about FIFA. Famously corrupt organization. In 2015, you know, we watched a bunch of FIFA officials get dragged out of a hotel in Zurich in their underwear. They were indicted for taking bribes. It's like $150 million in bribes. All these sports marketing executives too. DOJ has accused FIFA of accepting bribes from reps from, you know, Russia and Qatar to get those hosting rights in those countries. Sepp Blatter, the former president of FIFA, he's currently banned from soccer-related activities. Gianni Infantino, the new guy, doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. I don't know. I'm, you know, a casual watching this stuff. Given how much money stands to be made from international soccer, do you have hope of reforming the organization? And what would that even look like? - I've been hoping for that for a long time. - Yeah. - I find it quite depressing, particularly the cases you talked about. I was in the room when Qatar and Russia were given the World Cup. I didn't have a particular problem with Russia. It's a big footballing nation. They've never hosted it. And I don't really have a problem with it being in the Middle East and Qatar either. But what hurt, what made it feel dirty was it was so obvious that the bids were corrupt and it was latterly proved to be the case that, you know, a lot of them took backhanders for their votes. So, I remember thinking this is just truly awful for our game and then, obviously, it changed. Infantino came in, I met him, he's a nice guy, I've spent time with him. And I was hopeful. I was really hopeful that this would be a change. I don't, you know, I don't think for one minute now they're putting bongs to people, you know, packets full of cash to get votes for the World Cup or individuals or who's going to host it, but I don't like the fact that they're making the bet that much money and I don't see why they need to do that because they, you know, yes, it goes back into the game, but does it, does it? We don't really know. It's all a little bit secretive in the Swiss banks. So, it concerns me. But the sport itself is good, but I think it's the same in all things, isn't it? It's like, if you look, even if you look at politics across the world, and then the example of this World Cup, where all fans come together, and actually we just want to get on. I think 90% of the world just want to have a life. They want to be able to afford to have, you know, eat. They want to have a nice home and just get on with it. And I think actually we really like each other all in all. But it's the people at the top, the leaders, the leaders of whether it's governments or FIFA, they just don't seem to get that. It's all, I don't know whether it's greed or it's ego or whatever it is, but I find it very depressing. Yeah. Me too. I think it's the people at the top. It's the people at the top. That concerns me. Overall, at the top level, players earn so much money that I don't think there will obviously be the odd exception. I don't think players will be bought. But it is a worry for me. People can have a bet. I have no problem if somebody wants to bet on something. But what I don't like is the attitude of the betting companies and the way they entice young people. I don't know whether it's the same in America, but in England, they'll entice them in with a very attractive-looking bet, like Belgium to beat USA, 20 to 1. I don't know how you do the odds in this country. And then they'll get them in. But to do that bet, which is going to win, you've got to get an account. And so then they're in. And once they're in, I mean, it ruins their lives. I've seen Kylian Mbappe speak out against the gambling culture in France. around football, and I absolutely, totally agree with him. The rest is football that I do. We've always refused gambling adverts, for example. I won't get involved in that. Yeah, I think it is a concern, and it's something that we really need to keep an eye on. - Yeah, absolutely. I especially worry about how seamless and easy it's become to just lay bet after bet after bet from your phone on your couch. There's no friction, there's no bookie, there's no casino, there's no nothing. You're just going like this. - It's terrifying because it's so addictive as well. - Yeah, it's very fun. - I mean, I talk to people that work with people in various addictions, whether it's alcohol, drugs, sex. They say the hardest one to kick is the gambling addiction. - As a broadcaster after your career, I know you've been outspoken about a number of issues, including immigration rights, the war in Gaza. I know that the BBC, your former employer, didn't always love you talking about issues that were not soccer in the US. - In the US, athletes are often scolded for having political opinions or talking about social issues. A Fox News host famously told LeBron James to shut up and dribble, which was a very nice way to talk to someone. How did you think about when and how to speak out and about what issues? - I think it came with social media because suddenly you get a platform. Whereas before social media, unless you're asked in the occasional interview, which I was occasionally about certain things outside of football, you don't really get the opportunity. You don't get the opportunity to share your views. I've always felt strongly and tried to stand up for humanitarian rights, et cetera. So I think it's, I understand why most sports people don't get involved because you do get a lot of shit when you do it. I got that as well. But it's generally shit from people with some kind of vested interest in the opposite view to that you've got. And it's generally from the people that clamber, go on and on and on about free speech. They say, you know, F's players, free speech. But as soon as you do it as a sports person, oh no, you stick to talking about football. - Right. - We don't want to hear your political opinions. But yeah, I suppose I got, I started voicing my concerns about various things on social media and it went from there really. But I just, sometimes if I see something where I think there's a dreadful wrong going on, I just feel the need to speak up about it. And I understand why some people don't because it can make your life very difficult. But for me, I, the only person you can control really is yourself. - Yeah. - You know, if you go home at the end of the day and look yourself in the mirror and you think, okay, I did the right thing today. It probably doesn't make any difference to anybody, but you've got to live with yourself. - Yeah. Well, I think it makes a difference. Listen, I think it's, we live in a world where people are very cynical and when they see someone they know and they trust because they've watched you on TV for 20 years talking about the war in Gaza, for example, I think that matters. And it makes people think about stuff they might otherwise not have thought about and not have heard about. But also, you know, back to our conversation about like the friction-free gambling and the ease of social media. I know it makes it like almost too easy to speak out on things sometimes. Like I know you had an incident where you shared a video that included some offensive imagery. You deleted it. You unreservedly apologized. You said it was a mistake. You didn't see, you know, the image in there you never would have shared. But like, did that make you feel like chastened and want to retreat from conversations or how did you deal with that? - I mean, I've had a few incidents over my career with BBC because, you know, they have this partiality rules that actually didn't apply to people outside of news and current affairs. But then they moved, they moved the goalposts and made it true for everyone. But I'd also got into the habit thing. So I'd had a couple of fallouts with them prior and I always felt I was in the right on those. But the last one that kind of made my decision to leave the BBC a little bit earlier, was I genuinely concerned because that was, you know, absolutely an honest error. I, you know, I was posting something and there was a little tiny rat emoji on the post, which I genuinely didn't say, I mean, I am stupid, but I'm not that stupid enough to have posted that deliberately. And, you know, I was made aware that it's apparently some kind of anti-Semitic trope. Although, you know, why rodents would ever be compared with human beings, I don't know. But obviously as soon as I was aware of that, I took it straight down and I apologise. But I felt bad about that because that was my fault. I should have been more vigilant and I should have seen it. And, and, but I didn't, but as soon as I did, I took it down. So that wasn't easy. That was a tough few days because I, I wasn't, I wasn't pleased with myself on that one. But, but it was one of those things. And sometimes things happen for a reason. I think I'd been at the BBC for 30 years and it's like a long marriage in the end. You gently fall out. You go your separate ways for the best sometimes. - One last question about like social issues in soccer. I mean, there, there's just a shocking amount of racism in international soccer. I mean, earlier this week, a Senator in Paraguay tweeted like some vile stuff about Kylian Mbappe, who for those who don't know is this unbelievably good guy. He's the best player on the French team. He's one of the best in the world. Like I don't, it's hard not to like him, but she's like been this ongoing fight with him now. A couple of years ago, England lost in the finals of the European championship game. And then three black players on the team were subjected with this deluge of racist abuse on social media. And I know FIFA has like run all these kinds of anti-racism campaigns. But you see critics say like, it's really just marketing. It's not substance. Do you think there's more that FIFA and international football should do to kind of punish and prevent this behavior? - I think, I think they genuinely do try to be honest. And there will be supportive. I can speak for the premier league. I think they do a lot of good in this area and it's not just performative stuff. They do some really important things. I think, unfortunately, and as, as we see, as we see a lot in the world nowadays, you, you, there will always be isolated attacks on people. You, you talked about the Paraguayan Senator, I believe that, that cast abuse on, on Kylian Mbappe. And it was outrageously racist. I mean, I wasn't even trying to hide it. And then he responded and then she responded again, claiming to be the victim and it was quite absurd. So, and you talked about the three penalty takers for it. And you know, that's a load of people on social media, as we all know. I don't think they were views shared by the vast majority, but, but there is an issue, not just in, in sport, but in, in every walk of life in terms of racism. And, and again, I'll go to the, sometimes the people at the top, the people in our, our governments, do they do, do they do enough? You know, is it a football issue or is it a societal issue? I think it's the latter and it's, you know, you just need more from your governments and you need them to set a good example, not a bad example. Yeah. Well, you're not getting a lot of help from the United States on that front. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I. Indeed. Not, not sending our best over in the US. Pod Save America is brought to you by Smalls. Smalls makes fresh human grade food for cats. It's made from the same stuff you or I would eat, but formulated specifically to help cats thrive. Cats are obligate carnivores who need lots of real meat to stay healthy. 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We do know that result. We've already had that one. I can't see Belgium living with Spain. I think Spain. I think they're going to win that relatively comfortably. Then I go England-Norway. It sounds like England should win easily, but Norway are going to be tough. Holland, man, he's like a horse out there. Holland is the most Viking-looking guy I've ever seen in my life. And he's a great guy. I know Erling really well. I've interviewed him a few times, and he's got a lovely sense of humor. Boy, can he play. Can he finish? He just scores goals, so if England can stop him, they'll have a good chance. I think England have to be slight favorites. I'm going to go with England. I can't not go with England, obviously, as an Englishman myself, but I just want it to happen in my. I was too young to remember 1966 when England won the World Cup for the only time. So I've suffered so many times. I just want us to win it before I die. Just once. Just once, please. So. Yeah, so I'll go England, and then I think Argentina should beat. I think Switzerland have done really well to get to the quarterfinals, but I think their time is probably up, and the little fella's just too good, man. Messi's just too good. Everyone in Boston, where I'm from, fell in love with the Scottish fans. You know, they were singing at Fenway Park. They were drinking the bars, you know, out of beer. Were they that lovable when you were playing against them, the tartan army? Were they? Fuck. They were horrendous. Yeah, but they don't like us very much. I mean, I think they've probably got good reason, but. Yeah, some history. with history. But, no, they were tough to play against. But it's. The weird thing is, as English, we actually really enjoyed what Scotland were doing, the fan stuff, and we genuinely wanted them to do well. The opposite is true for them. I know. They desperately want us to lose. Every single time we play. So, but their fans were amazing. Their fans, I think, they won the World Cup, the Fan World Cup, didn't they, I think. But, you know, but then you get the Japanese, and the Mexicans were incredible. I mean, all the English fans were slightly apprehensive about going to Mexico City with Mexico's fans, and they all were a little bit nervous. But every single one of them has come away saying how amazing it was, how wonderful the Mexican fans were, how they treated the English fans, how they all hugged together on the final whistle, even despite that extraordinary game where. And Mexico played so well with great heart. And it was. And that, for me, is the most beautiful thing about this competition. It really was. There was an amazing image, I thought. I think it was a bunch of fans from Colombia, I think, when they played DR Congo, and there was one guy from the Congo in this giant sea of yellow jerseys, holding up his phone, singing his national anthem. Yeah. By himself, and everyone respectfully kept quiet. Then they all jumped in, hugged him after, and it was just, you know, this beautiful moment. Some of those things, I mean, they could teach us all a lesson. Can football save the world? Hey, hey, I think you're working on it over there, Cole Hanger. You played your whole career without getting a single yellow or a red card. How is that possible? I never tackled anyone. Stayed away from all that. No defense. No. Yeah, when I played, it was. They didn't dish out yellow cards like they. Yeah. Theatrically and quite as frequently as they do now. So there was a degree of that. But having said that, I'm not sure there's anyone else done it, but it was mad, really. I don't know. I haven't got a temper. I don't really have a temper, so I was never going to lambast a referee. I could whinge a little bit, but I didn't call them any terrible names. And I wasn't overly physical as a player. And I got kicked a lot. But the thing is, you know, can that make. That can make you angry sometimes. But the truth is, the only time it really makes you angry is when it hurts a lot and you're laying on the floor for a minute. And by the time you've been treated, you're okay again. Your temper's, like, gone down. Yeah. Yeah, a variety of reasons. But it is a bit mad. I didn't even think about. Until near the end of my career and people started saying, "He's never been booked. He's never had a yellow card." And then I started to think, you know, it was in my mind a little bit on occasions. And I just thought, maybe in my last ever game, I remember playing my last ever match, I was thinking, "Maybe I should just punch a ref." I was thinking that too. Go out and blaze of glory. Just beat the shit out of a goalie. Yeah, exactly. Actually, I wouldn't mess with the goalies. Those guys look like psychos. No, no, they're big. They're big. Jesus Christ. Yeah, they are mad. I was told to ask about the closest you ever came to getting carded. I don't know if there's a story there. I was in. That was in Spain, funnily enough. I was very. He went to his pocket and my offense was laughing at his decision. He made a ridiculous decision. I just burst into laughter. And he went. I went to the pocket and I said to him, "You're going to give me a yellow card for laughing?" And he put his hand back and that was it. You were just laughing in his face? I was just laughing out loud. Not in his face. Oh, got it, got it, got it. I was just laughing at that absurd decision he'd make. That sounds fun. I love when the refs get pissy. You know, you can tell when they have a little bit of an ego. You played in the infamous or famous, just famous, Hand of God game against Diego Maradona in the 1986 World Cup. Can you tell listeners who might be unfamiliar with that game, just a bit about what happened in Maradona? Because it's like, it is. Is it the most famous game in history? I kind of feel like it is. I think it is. I think because of a variety of reasons. Four years previously, the two countries were at war with the Falklands or Malbinas, as they call it. So that had an effect. And then it was built up before of this that, you know, are Argentina going to avenge England's war victory, if you like to call it that. So that was a big deal. And they had the Argentinian side, had Diego Maradona, who was the greatest footballer I certainly played against. I played with him once as well. He was the best of his time. He's, in terms for me, the best players ever have been two Argentinians and a Brazilian Pele, Maradona and now Messi. Messi, for me, beats them all. But Maradona was playing in this game and it was a pretty awful first half for the most famous game in history. But the second half kind of heated up a bit. The ball lumped into the air and Diego went to head it. But in the end, he punched it over our goalkeeper's head. Now, I hate VAR and what it's done to our game, but I could have done with it that day. So he punched it in and there was obviously. Huge ramifications for that. And then just a few minutes later, he scored what I think is the greatest goal that's ever been scored in a football match. I've seen a couple of similar ones. Messi scored one very similar, but you have to take into account, this was a quarterfinal of a World Cup in Mexico City, in the Azteca, with these two huge countries. And Diego doing what he did was. It's the one time where I was on a pitch and somebody did something on the opposite side where I felt I ought to applaud. I didn't because that would not have gone down very well at home. And then after that, I scored the goal that no one remembers. Oh, I didn't know that actually. There you go. There you go. My proof. Yeah, I scored with my head. And then in the very last seconds of the game, a ball came across again from John Barnes, our left winger, who made a massive difference in the game. Flipped it over. I was coming at the forward part. I knew I was going to score. And from somewhere, a lot of good chair there. Their left back came up and it hit the back of his head and went out. So, so that was, yeah, which, you know, I'm almost over it now. It's only, it's only 40 years on. I was going to say, after all these years, does it still hurt to have lost? Or is it just cool to have been a part of, like, history? I think it's cool to be a part of that history. That's extraordinary. I still would have preferred to have won. Yes, yes. Folks should go on YouTube and check out the really beautiful tribute you did to Maradona "when he passed away." - Yeah, bless him. - It's worth watching. Would you ever run for office? No. That's the easiest question you've asked. Nope. Fuck that. I'm interested in politics, but have no interest in being a politician. What about, what's his name? Binny McBinface? Count Binface? That guy keeps running? Count Binface. Yeah, I know Count Binface. Do we like his platform? I like his head. For those who don't know, there's a guy who wears, he's kind of dressed like Star Wars and wears a trash can on his head and he runs in every special election. Yeah, he runs every way. He's got every kind of by-election that he'll turn up. But normally there's a load of other politicians as well. But it does appear that in this by-election in Clacton, which has been completely manufactured by Nigel Farage to try and distract from his murky goings on and he's grifting. So, but it doesn't look like any of the other parties in our country are going to put up a politician to run against him. So it might be that Farage runs against Count Binface. And if Count Binface wins, that will be the greatest day in political history. The greatest upset. Let's make it happen. Oh my God. If Count Binface beats Nigel Farage, I will laugh so hard. It would be so much better than Liz Cruss and the lettuce or anything else that has happened. It would be even better. It would be wonderful. It would be extraordinary. Final question for you. So my buddy, Roger Bennett, encouraged me to be an Everton fan a couple of years ago. I have to say it hasn't been the most fun winning experience. But I watched the World Cup. And I see that, you know, the England goalie who plays for Everton, Jordan Pickford, playing lights out. You see former Everton players like Lukaku scoring for Belgium. What is Everton doing? What do we need to do to get them back on track? Well, I played for Everton way back. Yeah, I died one year there. It was amazing. My best season. Scored a hell of a lot of goals. Best team I played for. In the mid-80s, they were brilliant. Such a strong side. You know, they've been through the mill a little bit and things haven't quite happened for a long time. They've picked up a bit of late, but yeah, it's a great football club though. And that's what supporting, I'm sure it's the same in American sports. You know, the suffering makes, you know, the awful times make the good times better. As long as you do get some good times at some point. Yeah. I got to tell you, as a Red Sox fan, we were like the lovable losers for years and years and years. It feels sort of akin to how England feels about winning a World Cup. And then we started winning everything. And there's a bit of you that misses the hurt. And misses the underdog. And now everyone just hates us, you know? Yeah. Well, that's what happens when you get successful. So what do you want? You want to be successful, win trophies, have loads of joy? Or do you want everyone to hate you? It's a tough call. I think the former. I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. Last, last question. Is playing in Barcelona or playing in Spain the most fun thing in the world? That seems so cool. Playing for Barcelona is amazing. I mean, I was there for three years. It's a monstrously big football club. It's a bit of a madhouse, but it's so special. And especially when you play those games against Real Madrid, let's call them the Clásicos. I mean, it's like nothing you can imagine. The first one I ever played in, I scored a hat-trick, scored three goals in the game. And we won 3-2. And there were 120,000 people in the stadium. And every single one of them was a Barcelona fan. There was no away fans. There were no, because we, I don't know whether you get that in the American sports, whether you get many fans that travel to watch their team play. I don't know. But in England, we do. We're a small country. It's quite easy to get around to the away grounds. But this was like, honestly, I had scored two goals in the first five minutes. I had goosebumps all over me with the noise. And it was so special. And those games are so big. But yeah, my three years there were probably the highlight of my career. I bet you didn't. Didn't pay for your own tapas very often when you went out. That must have been a happy fan base watching that. They were very sweet. They were very sweet, the Barcelona. And the weird thing is, they were so respectful. They'd never, like, they wouldn't bother you too much. You know, they'd see you and they'd not. But they wouldn't. I mean, I don't know. That's probably changed now. Yeah, I think the camera phone changed that. Everyone's like, click, click, click. Listen, Gary, I've taken up enough of your time. Thank you so much for doing the show. Everyone should check out The Rest Is Football. Everything Goal Hanger. You guys make amazing shows. Just, you know, just a hit machine over there. So thank you for your time. Check out the show on Netflix also, by the way. And enjoy the rest of World Cup. Thank you for the plug and thank you for having me. Enjoyed it. Truly my pleasure. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts, and Farrah Safari with Reid Cherlin, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hethcote, Charlotte Landis, David Tolles, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Sengel. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. We'll see you next time. And one-of-a-kind experiences for the entire family. You know that moment when everything lines up? When life gives you the green light and you just go? The 2026. Go like you mean it. Toyota. Let's go places. See packages and options at Toyota.com for future availability.