CAN GOVERNMENT COMMUNICATE BETTER || STEPHEN ISABOKE || FIXING THE NATION

The headlines matter, the conversations matter even more. Eric Latif, Mariam Bishar and Filaris Wambui are fixing the nation, breaking down issues shaping Kenya, one conversation at a time on Nation FM, your voice, your vibe. We'll be talking about government communication. So if you think about every time we say, like in a monastery, Kelly, it won't be. Is it because we are not hearing or is because the government is not talking? Or is it because of both? The government is not talking, but it's talking in Russian, and we understand English. In English, or everyone is talking. Or everyone in government is talking. And they're saying different things, which is which, right? So it's been a concern about government communication. And apparently, there's actually now a way to streamline that. And the principal secretary who's in charge of that project is a PS for broadcasting and telecommunication. In the Ministry of Information, Communication and the digital economy. PS, Steven, is up okay, good morning, PS. Good morning, Eric, and your colleagues. Harry Busana, to fixing the nation. How we usually welcome our guests, days by giving you the day's quote, "Filaris is going to give you the quote, let's hear your interpretation of it, your thoughts around it." Harry Busana, PS, today's quote is an Ethiopian proverb, and it reads, "Do not blame God for having created the tiger, but thank him for not giving it wings." "Do not blame God for having created the tiger, but thank him for not giving it wings." How do you interpret that? Thank you very much. Luckily, I've worked up into Addis, and I've traveled the Ethiopian up of times. You know the famous story in the pipe about the Queen of Sheba, and David and Waterpen between him and Batkin, and then how that tribe came. So they actually normally, they say, "When was, when was, when was Crton Man, he created the African. It's the too long, the Overnight became this texture, and they created the Caucasians too soon and they became that way, and then Phoebe is just about right, and that's fine when you go to Addis. But just to go back to "Filaris is a quote, I think first of all, obviously God created the earth and created everything that is in it, and he balanced it off. So really, it's really trying to say, "When God creates a thing like the tiger, he has a context. He will not give it everything, others end the time, I destroy anything and everything. He gives it something, but it will give it something else. It really goes back to, we need each other, we might be a tiger, very powerful, and the you know, tigers are a threat. If you've been to the Maron, the rest, they actually tell it to watch out, even if you're looking for the pig five, I watch out because it might actually pounce on you. So, but then it's also got limits because it's got in our lions, elephants, and other things, but actually also manic, so it's really about limitations, that you might have this goodness, but it's also this limit, and it's a limit to everything that you do. Yes. You know, Ali and Filaris gave us a quote, I asked, "Do Ethiopians know a tiger?" I said, "Is that a tiger?" I was like, "At least you have tigers in Kenya." Here we have. Here we have. Yes, well, she tells it leopards, I don't think we have tigers. Tigers, how do they get to know about anyway? Getting to our conversation, PS, what do you talk about government communication? You join the government from many years in the private sector as well, okay? From the days when you were not in government, and you're assessment of government because you're in the communication space, was government communication effective? Thank you very much, Natif, if you allow me to call you that, I'll introduce your colleagues, and thank you for giving the opportunity to actually come on this premier show, which in fact talks about fixing the nation, talks about, you know, the contemporary or sort of current affairs, just to put context before I respond to you, so just so that I established myself, I actually spent almost a decade and a half in media, but in private sector. So I am not new to the National Center, and in fact, the studios. So Paco, Paco Paxen, I think we were involved very much working with the government when I just digitized it, when President Gibaqui went to open a very no-grow DVB2 at KBC to actually release Spectrum from forecasting to allow Telco, so to get more Spectrums or 5G can come up. We were in that playbook, and actually the current president, I remember coming, and I was minister for agriculture, but he actually accompanied President Gibaqui, and then president Kenyatta was a minister either for trade, but he was a company president, and they came. So that's really the foundation, talk about two or nine there. So first track, 2015, Kenya Migrates, that was an epic hero, and you know where the nation stood, and then some of you are patriots, but the government and some of us realized digital was necessary, digital was actually the future. So migration had to happen, digital migration had to happen, and hence the liberation we have today. Today, we're talking about one of the best media environments globally, in terms of the internet experience, in terms of even your 5G experience, in terms of your connectivity. That comes from that background, where you basically saw the leaders of that time, or forward looking, and they said the country needed to achieve them, so in fact, Kenya led completely in terms of digital migration, where the very first country in Africa to switch analog to digital, and to release spectrum, we call it digital dividend, to the tail coast of Farakom, Ertel, and the rest, and hence our very, very good internet experience. So what we're enjoying today is basically the first side of the leaders that have gone, and we're enjoying those dividends, of one of the best experiences, besides obviously the 2010 Constitution, we also allowed people to express themselves as part of the media freedom. Okay. Now back to the issue, communication, in those years, because you've been in the communication space in the private sector, and you're looking at how government was communicating, why are you feeling that the government was communicating effectively? And since you joined government, have you been feeling the government is communicating effectively? So, I think, until you joined the government, I think a few of your colleagues have joined the government, you know, a couple of my colleagues, you know, you're saying, "Warmend, Talaman, the rest, those guys where you are, joined where we are, and I hope some of you also should join us, because it's also a space and an opportunity for that. Government is a huge machine, Government is complex, and I think the issue of communication is also very complex, it's very dynamic. I think one has to step back and say, "Communicate, communicate or what?" Another way to communicate, because the user can communicate nothing, it's really about development. So, if look throughout the regimes, each regime has set up their own agenda and are talked to the current regime, and of course, then you try to deliver to your commitment, for example, the current administration has talked to, and I know you're talking backwards. You know, President Gibaqui put the vision 23, that's when he actually laid that, and that vision is now maturing, and that's when the current president is talking about beyond 23. Because remember, his excellence, Gibaqui had his ten years, then Urkaya, the president, another ten. So, 23 is maturing. We just got me less than 23 years to conclude. He put vision 23, there's a lot of people like Mughat, Kibati, and the rest were leading, and they got a lot of private sector, and the national social and economic council was advising a lot of that, and obviously, they did what they could, and people acknowledged that there was so much development. So really, one has to look at communication in the development context, and I think things were done. Ericky depends on what you look at. Are you looking at a cup as a fool, or haven't, in that context, what do you actually achieve? I'm looking for the cup. And the cup lead up, and so, so much up, and I think, for example, free education that you actually introduced, when, when, when not government to connect all that, so I'll say communication is a very complex subject. I think you cannot sort of write pro-oppression, say, plug, white, or it works, never worked. It is contextual, it depends, the development happens, yes, the government tries to explain why, because you're not doing development for government, you're doing development for the public, for the people, is it what they want, and they actually internalize it, that's really the ongoing thing, it's like going to charge you on the mosque. You don't say, it's enough, now, listen, I know everything, let me sit back, you keep going, and that's what communication is. So, so I think, for the generation of that time, talking lucky backwards, they did their best with the pillars, and they set up, obviously, you know, each, each, each regime has actually established the priorities, even talk about current, and I think it's better, let me talk a little bit, look at current in the future, like forward view, other than back. So, so the president, Dr. William Ruto, has actually put five pillars in, as you rightly say, I was part of the product, co-hot, chained in about one and a half years ago, and we actually were privileged to be taken through the five pillars, and why the five pillars, and then get your reform, okay, yes, and then gradually driven economy. If we do not produce efficient food, we will actually keep importing, and hence, per week, I mean, you can't feed yourself, you can't develop, MSME, the guys at the presidential economy, they did research and found that you are multinationals, you know, you live as all these big enterprises, and not always coming, they will not always be like coming every day. me is really the future, where the small and medium enterprises are actually being established in Lava. That's where the growth is, the gig economy. They use their coming out saying, "I will establish this, I make my 500 shillings a day, I'm okay." So that's really where the growth is coming from. And the president then focused on the state, and he was calling the Huzzle Nation, that let me help these guys enable the environment, sort of ease of doing business. Simplify the licensing procedure. Simplify their approach to market, so that they actually do not start with it. And then you've got the shaft, universal healthcare. So previously, you had privileged NHF where you had to have a pay slip to actually be covered. So now, you just need an ID, register yourself, KYC, and then you can pay once you've done this test. Really cover minimum, cover list, USC, you've got a call, you've got malaria, you can go and get the minimum attention in the Huzzle, and you know, you also have healthcare and your colleagues. It's actually part of our position right. So previously, the guys were wonderful, we're not exposed. And then you've got affordability. The population is increasing. If you actually look at places, for example, I come from the west of the Roosevelt, and you fly sometimes and you see what's going on. We're actually eating into a greater land, people going into fat island, we have to come up and a lot of rural up and up and migration. So to manage this, affordability came in to ensure that at least we can give decent housing to people who otherwise will stay in slums or in formal settlement. And we continue like that, the entire country will actually become a slum. So affordability is not a luxury. It's actually a necessity to actually then deal with the rural up and down migration. And that's happening across the country. And then finally the digital supply will create the economy. The one that's going to digital, active, feliz, and married and boy, it's actually going digital completely, unless you've got a digital identity, unless you're in digital, you don't even exist. So why then communicate all these things? First of all, the way they were established was actually by a public but special. Anybody who followed and you're not preaching to a converted, what will follow this current regime's manifesto and it was built, the economic sort of engagement in every county and people then brought the needs and the wants and issues for each of those counties. Those issues were then crystallized. So each county, its own county, sort of economic plan, building the national plan. So eventually crystallized in these five pillars. So if we are communicating, if they're not communicating about, for example, agriculture reform, you will see that we are actually intervening at production, not consumption. You know, bring down the price of fatalizer from 7,200,500 to make your production cheaper. Which, in fact, is a global phenomenon. You go to America, the intervened at production. They were not consumption. Just as an example. So just before you come, we're communicating development. We're communicating interventions and programs that are actually meant to deliver issues or things that Kenyans are looking to be resolved. Let me just ask, I think the good thing is Kenyans are fairly familiar with, you know, the bottom up economic agenda with this big five. But then when it comes to communication, that's where the familiarity kind of dissipates. How does government communicate? Just walk me through the different offices in government that communicate. We have a spokesperson for government. Then we have a spokesperson in the president's office. Then we have a PS4 broadcasting and communication. And then we work us through all of those. Thank you. So actually you sort of Maria sketched the structure. The architecture of actually government communication. Government is actually very, very structured. The highest hierarchy is obviously sexist. The president is the head of state and the government. He is a formal spokesperson for the country and for the state. That's where the structure is. And then you've got the people that support the presidency in terms of our spokespeople at the presidency. And then you come down to the David president. He will normally coordinate cabinet subcommittees. And also deal with things like crisis communication because he is delegated to deal with that. And you'll see for example, he's excellent as the David president commenter about the El Nino and the impending phenomenon that is coming. Then you come down to our ministry, which is the parent ministry for communicators. We are the schemoners of the public communication offices. We then post those offices across government. From defense to marine to agriculture to water to irrigation. And nothing, nothing. Spots and all that. Those guys are our people. Just like treacherous and finance people to our ministries. Those are our skin people. Trained as yourselves. Some of them are actually sort of like the media people, journalists and all that. Some of your colleagues will actually be there. And then you come down to obviously, obviously then the counties. We've got our own PCOs there. But also the county governments have their own communication offices. And there's an intergovernmental relationship between the counties and the national. And then you then have the channels of communicators. And Kenya is the liberalized. We've got government channels like Kenya News Agency. And I'm glad that the nation where we are today is one of the users of Kenya News. Kenya is an agnostic news gathering agency. They are neutral agents. So they come, even CNN can buy that use the cover and item. So illegal market. Or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or wasn't issued or nearly or whatever it is. Then it's sort of syndicate the story. And in fact, talk to the news. Kenya is actually government. And then we've got KBC, which obviously is the national forecast. And many other arms of government that actually also help disseminate information. So that's the structure. Then in terms of the people that actually play in. The way government works is that he's excellent as the president will pronounce positions of state and government. So new things. For example, PLB 2030. They infrastructure fund. All those things, they normally then deliberate and come through and give the cue. And then the rest of us will lead as his foot soldiers to say what is, to eco what he has said. Down the line, the cabinet secretaries and principal secretaries. And I'm PSO, that's my cohort. Other than actually CSS, and actually the owners of policy in the ministries. So any time you're developing a policy or a bill or a law in a line, the cabinet minister owns it. So they will be the ones dealing with the public engagement, but special until it's actually passed. When it's passed, the only in terms of this is our policy that is serving chaos in this respect. We PSS tell internalize as policy, interpret the policy and actually implement. So the PSS who are against accounting officers actually likes that policy. So the minister said it's a policy, it's PS, and it's a policy. So in the cause of that, you are communicating. President of the communicator, Mecha, sort of pronouncement, for example, beyond vision, 23. And it tributes down all the way to us and implementing. And then obviously then our people will echo down to the other question our government spokes. It's actually like our concession number nine. And I hope that if you're actually a photographer, strike number nine at the center. He is actually the vision spokesperson for government. Okay. He will normally amplify positions of government coming from either the presidency or coming from ministries that have actually been defined. So he does not originate, he actually amplifies, he helps amplify. Because they are actually owned as a reward from a line. And then they would be clarity and hence no confusion. Because if opposition has been taken, for example, by the weatherman, which is basically the environment, the climate change. They say they're coming in three weeks. He's not the one declared the script. He says we've been advised by the met department and the ministry, or department that responds for environment, that the fact is he's coming. So what has happened here for Kenyan? He's then echoing and amplifying to support. So then, in a situation for example, where the president says, "Oh, I want to obey Sharan Dogondogo." It's a BD. What's your demand tattoo? What took am I countrymen the exact wardings? And then after that, it comes a statement from Hussein Muhammad, another one from the PCS. Well, he should be a statement. Yes. And so on and so forth. What went wrong there? So I really don't want to second guess. And I think you guys also pinned down the other day of my colleague, a spokesperson on the same issue. I think that has been well articulated. But it will be cases where, for example, there is executive intervention to elevate the issues that will actually impact on Kenyan. The member of this Excel is the president and elected leader. He's actually a respond to Kenyan issues. And it will be pronounced to elevate issues. There could be other people looking at it in different ways. But when I look at it in what context, and why did he say what he did? And obviously then, what is it going to address? I'll say, I think sometimes we miss the context. And sometimes we miss the interpret. When overall, you sort of unpack the detail. It's going to be in the story. Probably was all saying the same thing. Different sort of interpretations. No perception as well. And that is where communication comes in. I mean, isn't it? It's basically showing that there is something that is not flowing freely in the entirety of that chain, right? In terms of what is the president saying? And what, therefore, is there communication that should come to the public? Because we, the public, will be sitting there and will be wanting to understand. aam, what has the president said? the president has spoken and the president cannot start explaining himself so some villain assembled in Kwamba, a PS leak in Yenjuaki Taka, Ata Kujat and the Gakina Figa Ata Nakom Kutano, that's kind of a flirty flirty, I love working with a Kutano a Ata Kapiana, what to interior, now now the police, that's not him, that's not him job he has said, I have heard what you guys are saying, and my response to that is positive, let's address the issue correct, and I am handing it over to the cabinet secretary for trade, today exactly, and you know it's even as PS is talking, the question here, if we expand the view, is at the different ministries speaking to each other are all of these offices speaking to each other or seemingly get to also interpret, message and say in the context like we've given for the small trade does, they're also consuming the same information as the public, so everyone is almost like running around like headless chicken we've explained the structure of communication very well, but what's the internal mechanism looking like, or are all of these offices just operating in silos and saying, as we've gotten this directive and therefore, it's upon us to issue ex-statement this other office says, as we've interpreted this issue, we're also going to issue, it's almost like a battle of statements that's coming from all of these offices, are we operating in silos? Thank you very much guys, so in fact that really takes me to the question of the communication policy, so recently and in fact it's something that was keeping conceptualized from even the further administration, it actually was in the works from about 2019, so recently in about July the cabinet actually approved now the communication policy to actually guide government in terms of how we engage in the public, how we communicate that really addresses that whole area that Ferrari is talking about, where in fact we're meant to be, because we really talk about the same facts, same thing so that they really cannot be discordant, so that if, for example, we talk about the particular agenda, there will be one set of facts, one set of a detail that we are going to all refer to and also the way we get coordinated is like carving an orchestra, so you practice, practice is the same song, you've got following the same line, you then will actually then sort of follow through that, and that's really what has happened with the communication policy and really is meant to intervene to ensure that as we engage in the public, as we're communicating on this very sort of a strong achievement to have had as government, but in fact there is no gap, because then like an orchestra, even if you're a good singer you don't follow, or you don't follow the thing, you might be discordant, and then you don't have that, I don't know your moment that I am, you actually just give me just, I know you We actually need to take a break, but we'll come back and you know continue to get in this communication policy, but rightfully put an orchestra cannot have two conductors, can only have one, otherwise you just end up having chaos And we've seen enough years in terms of communication that would have solved a problem that ends up creating another problem, and therefore one of the things will also just continue interrogating is what has government been getting wrong, and is this policy going to correct all of these wrongs, because again, like you said, government is a mammoth and it's communicate properly I think what we realized in government is that we didn't so much in terms of pre-can-motor development, so much if you actually look at all the developments that are going on, you know, construction of stadiums, all these reforms that are going on, affordable seeing, shan, all those things, but in fact the communication element was actually either lacking or a bit undercast, not enough And then government has sort of accelerated, you know how policy is developed, there's a whole procedure of finding a gap, you also have to take it through public participation, and then eventually it's approved by cabinet, so as I said, I don't know, this year, the cabinet actually approved it, so we then essentially put a framework, and guidance in terms of how do we effectively communicate, and one of the issues we're dealing with was a case where we've done so much as government in terms of development So much across, probably the most transformative development agenda of art in terms of all these developments, and yet there was deficit, interest deficit, or questions whether it's actually happening And sometimes you even have a really project existing, people want, oh, is there, is there, is there a little need, a little need construction project going on, and you know that that is a physical day, if you actually drive there, so then it's necessary to actually make a belief, so what then government has done, and in fact the chief of staff and the public service, they have guidance post the approval of that policy to actually really organize the cabinet secretaries and principal secretaries to say, let's communicate, let's engage the public on what you're doing, it's not new, it's really like you're not talking, something you don't know, you talk about, let's explain the public, let's actually bring the public along, as a former prime minister will actually mention, of what you're doing, so that they actually understand what you're doing, and how it actually impacts on them, and that's really where they come into, actually take the lead in terms of pronouncing the developments that are arising from these policies, and then following that also, is to now take communication to be at the forefront of all activities in the MDS, the ministries, departments, and agencies, so that we're just not concentrating on the technical side or on the hardware side, we also talk about the software side, the communication side, so there's a good thing and people are aware of it, otherwise you've got a good thing and people get surprised, and sometimes they give you not the examples that are out there, there's a pleasant thing that has happened, people keep quiet about it, then you get surprised, oh it has happened, and people are asking, what is this, so really to ensure this is a corner that has not exist, it's actually to ensure that there's ongoing communication, and now communication office has some of whom we're actually promoting to direct a level, like direct public communication, to see that the key commentages and departments, to support the CSS and PSS in articulating development, and to talk about development of communication, or the rhetoric, things you can touch, things you can see, things you can show, that's really the shift, and then obviously funding communication as well, sometimes it's actually the one thing that is actually most effective, is that there's austerity measures, or in fact any impact on physical, physical sort of on the financial side, communication normally be the easiest to actually touch, and we say, it is actually the lifeblood now, if you do everything well and you don't communicate, you don't have the people to be able to start questioning, without seeing you or mistrusting you, and you've lost all the goodwill, so that whole understanding that we need to fund communication, it is private arms as yourselves in nation, or in fact in public, to ensure that that side is also funded as the actual infrastructure. Yes, you know, there are many times when we have actually made that comment here, and said it happens in the private sector, and it is happening as well in government over the many years, when people come up with a project, and they sit, they brainstorm, they come with a brilliant idea, they present, it is approved, they start rolling it up, they say they are going to roll it out, and then, when they want to launch next week on Monday, that's when they call the comms people, we are launching this project on Monday, it's Friday, tell the people we are launching, we are launching a new product, we are launching the product, a communication aspect was never involved in the brainstorming, the entire thing, and obviously it will flow. It's good music to hear that the government is now thinking of communication from the very beginning of thinking about a project. Now, please tell me, how will it be funded, when you say we are going to fund the communication, we have the directors of communication on every ministry, how we are going to fund that aspect. Thank you, thank you, so one of the inventives, those of this new communication policy, is that in fact it's going to be measurable. You know in government, government introduced performance contracting, so the CSS who are heads of ministries sign up performance contracting the president, and we have a letter on nine new pieces in terms of what we delivered, and communication now is going to be one of the measurable deliverables. So, in session, you being measured, in terms of not just the project you delivered like Eric Husks, which is basically pre-carmed, are you delivered, but in fact, are you adequately communicated on it? So, in session, then it's conditioning, if you talk about conditioning behavior, tell you, deliver fine, but also communicate around it. So, what, in fact, the policies and the chief of staff and little public service is secular, also calls out that in fact, major projects will have to include communication funding as part of their funding, as sort of a mechanism. So, you know, it just shows a project to pre-carmed and building, for example, reloading at the National Study, or the Ronin Mousami Road, but what element of communication, so you actually engage the public, that you are actually meant to serve in that. So, that is now becoming embedded, are given, so that, you know, you bring a project, you must auto-show the communication component of it. So, it will be embedded in every budget. Okay, then there's the true inness of communication, that it's a given tick, we can see the give, what's the take, how do Kenyans give feedback to government? Yeah, no thank you very much, as you know, actually our Kenyans constitution is actually very clear about public participation, and in public service, we are actually here to serve the public. So, the first instance, any initiative that is actually started, is going to have a public interest. What is actually a public looking for in this? So, the first instance, wherever you're initiating anything, and that's really what we also want the media to sort of hold us into, why? So, in many sense, there is a public interest that doesn't get protein. For example, you take the Rironi Mausani Tamalaba Road, anybody who comes from the west of the Rituali, it will tell you, I don't know if you are a speed maniac, you go past Limuru, you can't even go 70 kilometres, an hour or even 50, because it's a chain of cars, throughout all the way to Kisumu, to Bungoma, to wherever you're going, Kisya and then we are, homopay and all that. Because, in fact, the population has increased cars, so there was need for that road expansion. So, the first instance is, you must know what I tried to sort of, and of course, public interest. Once you actually public interest, and then, which is a field park, then you conceptualize the project, and before any major project sees the light of day, there has to be public participation. That's where people run to court, to test. Oh, there was no public participation in that, and the court will actually grant the complainant, unless you actually show with evidence that, in fact, there was participation, and the public supports that. So, all those are field park mechanisms. In the course of implementation, and in fact, now we've got, sort of, different organs of government, of public reaching back. Of course, we've got public parazas. One of the deepest arms of representation is in Gao, the national government administrative organization. The guys, the chiefs, stunt chiefs, all the way to, you know, this investment. Yes, yes, in fact, and you know that if we're actually paying them now, the president actually recognized them, and all ahead, and actually being paid, you sort of like, not typing, not automatically as much phone soon. Correct, correct. So being recognized, because they're actually representing a government at the lowest point. And those parazas, and I hope Maria, and your colleague, especially, you know, just sitting in the pedestrian nation, you know, that you go to, even your own estate, to understand what's going on. Those guys explain government policies. If, for example, there is a lineo, that the first people to say, there's a lot of rain coming, come out of, you know, flat areas, you know, secure yourselves, take care, this is happening. They are the first point. The people then ask, so what do we do? If a school is found in a flat area, do we actually close in school? Lock into another school? What do we do? That is, that is feedback coming. And obviously, then in the cause of implementation, if anything is not working, or in fact, people are not clear, there's so many channels of communication. And in fact, we are now leading into what the Coal National Communication Center, which is a digital platform that also gathers public information on a platform, generally too, the public. And that is also a digital platform that you can feed in, literally, live pack. Okay. So that you then can chat, raise questions and all that. I want to be able to WhatsApp government. Yes. Is that it? It is. WhatsApp. Yes. I think this is as simple as possible. Yeah. Whenever, I forget the name of the rule. But whenever you add like an extra layer to anything, usually lose people. Yes. If you tell me I have to go to our website and then open a chatbot. Umesh Ali Potesa. There's phone lines. But, okay, Nimbia. Yeah. Number Syracalini 0700000000000000000000. What's up? What's up? What's the proper line? Five, six. Yeah. So the first step is obviously then each ministry has a point of contact in the line directly. So in fact, if you have an agenda on Instagram, we'll then contact them. There's also even WhatsApp lines around it. What you're actually doing with the National Communication Center is actually now set up. There's like a four digit sort of a hotline. Hotline. Yeah. Yeah. And then you then get in. I've got an inquiry on this heat. They guys come back and some of it obviously with AI now. If it's generic, we can actually give you feedback. Yeah. You do not need to take long until you escalate until even an accent comes on. Yeah. So that mechanism is coming. And but at the moment every ministry, you can actually contact us. And we will have given, for example, wherever, for example, you take a shot using the nine to two. And you go to an ambulance, you call that particular, you start nine to two hash, you'll then get the service provided. So it really depends on what you're looking at. But the NCC that is actually part of the communication policy that has actually also come through. Now with the policy being rolled out, we'll actually never ask to actually be contactable either electronically, as you say. All in fact, by this sort of like shotgun. Yes. And in fact, the models in the team around the Singapore government model, where our people checked. And we're not talking about Singapore because this is excellent. The president has been giving Singapore our metaphor development. But indeed, you, I challenge you towards the st.org government of Singapore website. You see a very agnostic website where you basically watch from current affairs. For example, the weather is aggressive and all that was going on. It tells you. There are specific programs and things, details of departments, ministries across. So at one sort of a touch stop. You can actually see what's going on today, what's really a big thing. What are the government like people to know and current affairs to existing sort of a program. So in fact, where you can get help and all that. So that's a kind of model we're actually going to implement. Essentially, then you'll get information at one touch point. Secondly, to my audience point, we then also give you channels where you can actually, obviously engage the government. And now with AI, chat, chat puts another that. So what we all need is proper connectivity so that everyone is online. And in fact, we are, if you look at the cities and with over 22,000 services online. And so essentially almost everything you need from applying for your ID, other than that, you can take a new photo to a regular driving license to get to your police clearance. And of these things, you can actually, you do online. You do it online. Yeah, you do online. So then essentially, you then can get a little what you want. And of course, give feedback. For example, through the Uduma Sentals, in terms of the service you need to, the service that you actually are not getting. Okay. I look at it from, because we have, we have the officers and structures, right? We have now the directors of communication at ministry level. And it goes all the way to communications officers on the ground. We have the engouse structure. It goes all the way to that village headman. Now, yes, if you remember, in the earlier, they can only karnu party era. Some things were bad, but if you look back, there are some things that were good. In that, the government communicated whether it was by force or not. Yeah. The government had, we have a baraza. There's a chief's baraza on these dates. Kill them to funga show. Luca, kujakwa chief's baraza. Yeah. And it was one way. It was not good. But it was one way in which the government comes in and says this is the information. So we have this and the other. Kamauna, kadiakanu, Ksatumonga, Zabainu, 25 shillings, and so on and so forth. But it was government. This millenia is not to know that. They read about it. It was a chapa. No. But it was a way in which the government would communicate at that village level. If you look at what happens now, in fact, we're just discussing in the other day, go to any funeral this week. This day is in the rural areas. And there are some haram ways. There'll be an opportunity that's going to be given to the local chief. Yes. Local administration of Huapia administration. Watch a triangulation administration. Yes. And they take that opportunity to communicate. Yes. The question is, do they have the information to communicate? How do you ensure that a chief, a headman who stands up today at a public meeting will know the information that I need to give today here in Marani, in Kisi. Yes. In Nino. In Nino. And also issues surrounding us and ABCD. Which is very different from what they are saying in Kamauna. Right. Correct. No, no, no. Very up to question. And really, obviously, that question is more relevant to my colleague. You know, the PS4, internal administration, the international administration and the coordination of government. So, but just answer. That same script place. That actually still happens. So, the Gao is a whole sort of arrangement from OP to the headman, as you said, the Yumbakumi head, those headmen on the ground. And they have the same structures of communication that actually trickle down in terms of government. Sort of policies or news or anything that they actually want to emphasize. The same thing has happened. I think the TV was changed. It's basically sort of the avalanche of information. So, those days, you probably had just one channel, the national channel. And very limited sort of broadcast. Broadcast. Broadcast. And maybe social media was actually not there. So, today, something has happened. Our recent company in the studio, between us, people who have seen it, even before you've announced it. Yeah. So, it actually runs ahead because of social media. So, I think that's where information, a symmetry has come to. That's where all these noises come. Where, before it was quite regimented, they did. So, the same regiment exists. We actually, through the colleague, PS and Interior, passed the same message as around. What's the big thing? I test you, ask Marani. which is very close to where I come from, or a long talk to whoever mentioned, or anywhere else, they will actually know that the government has actually communicated through one script. This thing is coming, it's affecting all these counties. Number two, what do people need to do? Number three, if you need help, please contact the local headman or us and achieve another, so that exists. I think what has changed, which is created a perception that maybe when we're defective, is actually the avalanche of information, there's too much information, and I dare say, I think our overviews of social media. And Kenyans, Stephen, this is now empirical evidence. Kenyans are among the biggest users of social media globally. There's some researchers that have shown us we're in the top quarter. We're actually in the top 10% countries globally considering social media. So we then, from their informal selves, but then the chief is informing us of the funeral. Oh, I saw this one, what do you? I saw this on X. So, and some of what you see in social media is not in a self-refact. Some of it is fake. And fake news are missing information. So that then brings a disconnect. Those days-- And it spreads because there is no verifiable source of information, which is where the policy, hopefully, comes in. Because if the people know, not I-- I want to say my team, who I catch in a kujasana to ameleo, I want to know how can I verify this information. If I can get to talk to my chief immediately, or I can get information to a platform where I can get that. Yes, and it's answers very many things. Correct. Remember Chief Karyuki? No, the guy in the group called Chief Karyuki, who was just using social media, SMS, to communicate to these people. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] He showed that he can be done. You don't expect it. That they government have picked up immediately and said, they come up with the same thing. Let's empower our chiefs. Let's roll it out. Let's help them to use it in the community. So all that is actually going on, as you saw, the chiefs have actually had engagements with the head of state to actually also explain what's happening on the ground. And you guys follow news and all that. And that's part of an empowerment. So when the guys come all the way to engage the president, that's the highest we can do in terms of being closer to policy. Number two, they're now really being empowered. They're actually connected. I go to the village consistent weekends to understand what's going on. And the chief is speaking English like you are. The chief is actually on WhatsApp as you are. The chief is engaged with his counterpart for a member of parliament, or the religious people, and the community. They're completely embedded. So they're as empowered. What do they need? He's obviously like you say, to actually give them a good source. So when they're actually challenged, they then can verify that information. And that's why, for example, when we were actually breaking the news about El Nino, and you saw it's one of the playbooks, because, in fact, El Nino crisis, which is not happening, is in bending, is coming in at the time when now we have a structure. At least we now know what to do in terms of crisis communication. And you saw his excellent debate president procting news around with this kind of committee that this is happening. These things, the weather people have actually warned us. You might see this loud. It's just dry and all these things. It is coming soon. So within the Minister for Environment, the Parasar, then followed to actually go to the mayor's department and say, he's keeping you as information, overfitted information. And actually, let's not fight the public. He then followed some message, no disconnect. We then followed Roman Spokes to actually call the product media. I thank the nation and the rest of you actually there. There's a full house, probably like 200 journalists. To actually say, listen, today we have come to warn the public, to warn the Kenyans around El Nino phenomena coming. Oh, this is coming. So there is one source of the truth. We even, Eric said, when verifying, for example, might lie, oh, this bridge has been blown. This has happened. Verify from the proper source. Not fake or sort of like sources and all that. So the public and then a lot galiba. Because even in the process of crisis, they can also be jitter. In this case, actually, it's El Nino, who will be the proper source. What is the-- actually, because we are already in the season, who is the proper source? So as you know, El Nino is actually a climate phenomenon. It's a weather phenomenon. So the meteoroscope department, which is actually under this department of climate change, is actually the source of what's actually going on to happen, what's going to happen with the weather. They then will actually have monetized, because weather science, monetized, what's coming, and when it's coming. They then peel the information scientifically, and we'll actually taken through a presentation. But these guys, when preparing and infacting the media was there, the digital, meteoroscope department was there, and the team from the environment and the climate change, where it actually falls when they are. So that's where it comes. And then all they then do-- because the technical information is give the communicators, which is principally the people at the climate change, and also the spokespeople, to then translate these technical information into simple, understandable information, relative to what your grandmother can understand. For example, the telecast is about Indian diapol, and temperature is rising. And it's going to be 2.2. This is very dangerous. It's going to be double. The weather knows that this is seat. So then what does that mean? You explain them a matter about Indian diapol. What's that? It says, look. It'll mean it's going to be 2.2 degrees warm hours. What's the difference between 20 and 20? Of course. All they say is that when temperatures have been rising, obviously, then the air is hit. It forms clouds and clouds form rain. And also, this is a wind swimming from the Indian ocean. And it's also heating up. When there's that convergence, it actually makes a linear, which then leads into a flood. Or a drought. And people say, you know, it's not just a drought. A flood? A drought. Or it could be a flood for a drought. So you then get the science and explain in a simple language. And they say, if you're explaining a thing that your grandmother cannot understand, then you use it to not understand it. So nature is so simplified that you know, even the Shakyato, the grandmother, it's OK. This is what they mean. So you then simplify it and say, this is coming. And what does that mean for them? What do they need to do? So to answer your point, obviously, it will come from the environment team, metrological department. And the communicators get in. And you saw us work with the government spokes, the ourselves. And they allowed the acting duty of the metrological department to actually speak. And we also agreed they'll be giving periodic updates. We don't own second-guest weather. They tell you this is how it's looking. We amplify it. It's how it's looking. We amplify it. As a matter of fact, they see an engagement today with the DP to again update the public around these phenomena. Because it's coming. Welcome to the Kenya National Interpranoas Savings Trust. Because the Kenya Otagai is actually encouraged because I was very involved. To save part of the sort of grant they get. Getting fast range of $25,000, save 10%, then when you also get the second trend, because we are also trying to encourage saving culture in this country, consumption of use, but set aside, which in fact the Japan you are mentioning. Because of typhoid, it's actually one of the highest-safe the sort of environment globally. The Japanese and the other cultures learn how to save. So you produce, but you save, even as you reinvest. As you reinvest, yes. The rule is, as communication should be true, we not just government informing citizens, but also listening to them. What's being done to strengthen government listening? Yes. Ebola, quarantine, finance bill, citizens feeling ignored. Which also comes into what Benjamin Mukubi is saying. Can Bona Piers confirm that there's some trust deficit between the public and the government? And is it possible to get it fixed, you know, respond to that? And then Simba says, this is the kind of accountability we need, one message understood by all. Julian Zono said, you know, "You're an all-in-all, you're a solid, you're a private sector, you're a true attorney, you're a quanza." Ian John says, "Better communication today means fewer rumors and more informed citizens tomorrow." Ian Kundi says, "An insightful conversation from the PSTV subok and enriching experience." Ian Oak says, "Positive and, in fact, impactful thoughts from PSTV subok, consistency in government messaging builds confidence across the whole country." The Kikongbe, "Jetelo Piers," in your opinion, do some government officials of a reach communication with Gerehere here, also known as Nyef Nef, specifically referring to some presidential advisors, who is the true, like, how do you contain, don't speak out of town, people to speak when they ought to speak with the correct information. If you don't know, refer to the PSTV who knows. - Thank you, thank you, that's a good opening for this round. But first of all, just to say that I think the trust deficit is a legitimate comment. And, like I said, we've done so much as government. It's so much. And I challenge you guys, and I challenge you. Young people, actually, sometimes follow the president. I live here, often, though, that hope, go to a chair, go to live, go to this place, and see what's going on. There's so much going on and a lot of development. But because of the sometimes information and see you in the next video. 'Truz' means 'people trust fake news' and people start trusting people doubting or denunciating and think denunciating and think the truth in the process we then have trust deficit. And that's why I think one of the engagements we had before he passed his excellence of former prime minister, I guess, says 'take the people along'. So the only way you can close the trust deficit is take people along and really by engaging and communicating. That's why we were saying communications are embedded. In fact you fail if you don't communicate. If you deliver everything and you're not a communicator you're failed. That's really the mantra. So that and communications two way, not talking at the end or to them. He's listen, then respond. Listen and taking this and maybe adjust. So that eventually there's two ways like a conversation. So you cannot talk one way. It's actually two way. And that's a very very key thing. To the point that you raise, I think this is what the communication policy meant to actually address. First of all, in terms of legitimate communication, development communication which I think is really my remedy, we are actually an entrained in a communication language, we're actually meant of a communicate. It's like repeating a song, repeating a song. If you love repeating, correct. So then you like it's a second nature but you also repeating a song that exists. One of the things that exists, no type of communication. So really, overcommunicate. When it comes to people talking out of them, that's why this would not be called line by the chief of seven and the end of public service. We all have our roles. And you know, governments like, you know, you have worked and snorkeling. I know that you go to where your goal is, you go down. You see the whole new world. It's moving parts, many moving parts and they're all complex and each one of them have their role. That's a government. It's actually a huge machine. It's actually a chagunat. So people are playing different roles. How do you actually coordinate? First of all, ensure that you've got one source of the truth, at least fact number two, define roles. So that is like a football team. You're number one, you're number seven, you're number nine. Like I said, it's both the number nine. And by level like that, you will keep it. And if sometimes, and as you see, if some people might kick the ball, almost own goal or kick out the condition, whatever, you bring them back. And that's where the manager, in our case, the leader, hopes as I could call us into line and say, guys, we've done so much. So much going on with our winning team. Please kick the ball this way and actually ensure that the cast, the people watching it are actually enjoying it. And hence that coordination. It's one thing when you hear one government, one voice, a lot of questions pop in the head as what is the pursuit here? Is it to create a consistency of messaging or to control the messaging that's coming out? Because then, or is it both consistency and message control? And also where does propaganda sit in that? Which is an effective tool. Which is a very effective tool. So really, I think it's more consistency. You really cannot control. I think first of all, you know, the construction is very clear. Second, that three, that four, that five, freedom of expression, freedom of media and access to information. All those things are embedded. It's actually our second nature's canyons. People are very outspoken, including you ladies in the studio. And you cannot be muscle. You speak your mind. So you really cannot control. And also given our very pervasive, very broad media spectrum and both social and traditional, you really cannot control. You probably attempted in the previous year when you sort of have limited channels. So any way you can contain in this case, you won't consistence and consistence can only come from being proactive. In terms of providing information, first of all, you know, faction information. And those are anticipating any other things that people might actually want and those who are releasing it like what you're doing now with the weather. So I think I'll say you really cannot control. You actually won't consistence, but empower the people so that the people that speak, you should speak from known facts. For example, you're going to speak about the national media group. You need to get the facts so that you also don't miss fire. So that's where the National Complications Center comes in. You give your industry your facts, facts, your facts, your videos. You have so many challenges to you. Like that today, we actually had talking about where our communication can be effective. But then after a meeting, a monthly meeting of PSS, the chief of staff and the public service call immediately, let's go and to an aerobic river regeneration. And guys were in aerobic. I challenged you guys one of these weekends or one year off. Just where you are sneakers. And with you one or two buddies, your sunglasses walked down aerobic river along the river. 27 kilometers, regeneration happening. Take on me on that. And we went down the chain in terms of the regeneration of the river that they're actually branching. They've been making all these fun packs and everything. You go to come to your combat, draw the same all the things that you have. You have proper like entertainment packs. And you want to like, are we still in a road in London already. This would ideal city or I mean, in Los Angeles was something like that. So, so the media followed us. We did the two over two hours with a long distance, stop, start, check this start and works are going on. And then the chief of staff and other public service ask guys, do you have any questions? Because they're with us. They're seen. We're not telling them we showed them. There's a quiet. We see what's going on. I'm telling you is a testimony. Fun packs move on the eye. You can even leave them away. People thought was actually alive and everything. More than apartments because afford a housing is happening. More than packs, more than pike, sort of a walkways and all these things. Very more than secure with lights lights and everything. The country is changing. This is a transformation transformation transformation. The president is talking about. And this is what we're communicating to your point relative. We're not talking about political rhetoric. We're talking about development communication. And for these, you need to be sure. Other than just talking, oh, he just talked to his nothing. We show you. And luckily, we talk about four years of the kind of development. So, you know, I'm talking development. Test us on those five pillars. Test us on tangible things. You go to for example, you see the irrigation going on. You can Google it. You can go to the river and check it. So, tens of thousands of workers of land irrigated and now producing maize and other produce. In fact, those sites are actually becoming the predpascal of the country. This is development. This is what we're talking about. Not rhetoric. Not, you know, this political, Joseph, sometimes you see some of the nations contest even existing things. We talk development. We talk tangible things. Let me hang on the mace as a little bit. Yeah. How does the chain of information work? And from our communications perspective, how do you ensure it works when this feedback coming? So your, this information is coming down and you've given us the chain of command. Let's take something like whether it's Hassler Fund or agriculture, but then again, we said it's a two-way street. So the information coming back is fantastic. Shy is great, but the cover for this and this is not sufficient. Someone I know or I'm being treated for this. It's not sufficient. If it's Hassler Fund, maybe it's a question of I've been borrowing, borrowing, borrowing, but for some reason, my limit doesn't seem to change, right? How do you ensure that the communication is truly two-way in that these things are implemented? Because sometimes from government, you feel very defensive whenever anything is said that is not fantastic. It's not in the script. Yes. So I think you've raised, Mario, you've raised two examples that are actually very apt and are very practical because you've actually been implementing Southern government programs. You talk about Nyota Fund. Nyota was actually an intervention that was meant to help youth that were between 19 and 29 years. From four robots, they're never going to be on from four. They're not in TV or university. They're in between there and not having again for employment. So the president worked with a wild bank, got an intervention, totally raised, of course, funding and also giving them a bit of entrepreneurial skills to then give them a livelihood, other than just giving them a handout, a livelihood. Let me just give them fish because we give them fish to them. So what happens tomorrow? We are showing people how to fish and that was the Nyota Fund. That was a very complex project. It actually involved a whole of government approach. I remember when it was being launched and I'm telling you because it's public, the president actually summoned all of us pieces and said there's a project that's intervening or meant to assist the youth in the country. The youth is an initiative that's very close to his art. He says I wanted to actually first of all understand this program from the Nyota team, the BS colleagues, Susan McNeen and Fikreeni and the team, technical team. Once you internalize each one of you must go home and start talking about this. So we had to put the idea out before interest and then all the way to people registering. In the process actually they were youth sending back home. When I just started firing into Muslim primary school, other than Boga Saka primary school. Then they far packed the piece and said when the guys are actually doing this, I started to fight for hash. The thing is Muslim primary school. It's like a primary school or a congoing primary school. Then the piece will come back and say there is a bit of an algorithm thing. The things from keeping their own data were adjusting. But in fact, advice them this way. And the guys are communicating this way. Of course, we have contacts all the way down. And we're also communicating back. That's why you never had any conflict. Eventually, using actually technology, because we don't mind you, people had to register that. And online, we screen you, we check if you are active, or if you're not, you drop. Eventually, from nearly two million users showing interest to about $10,000, $20,000 that actually were beneficiaries. And that far was then administered electronically by MPSR. So, but where there was confusion, either someone questioning the venue, or for example, the screening, or where they should go the following morning, there was a pack and thought sort of a feedback. Until eventually, you never get any complaint around that. The same thing with Shah. I think Shah is probably the greatest success stories. When the history of K.S. written, and the president is put in context, it's like ObamaCare. It's like ObamaCare. Where the president intervened, touches the vulnerable people here. They cannot even afford Panato. And yet, health care is actually a basic right to a constitution. So what do we do? Something has to be done. And you know, I mean, he's probably the closer to my age, you guys are millennials. Previously, the previous administrations had tried, knock. They tried, you know, the ministers were there. Touch, open sea, do nothing. The next administration touched, open sea, nothing. Sort of like, or too complex. The president took it, I don't. They then came with a total transformation. NHI was packed. It was never effective. 780 million users. Very lit. You had to be employed to pay sleep. So a person like my brother, cousin of country, could not be under the influence of your business because it was a deduction. Shah then came in and said, you register. We do a ministers. We assess you. You can literally pay a few hundreds to be in. And in fact, Shah now allows, as you know, and my colleagues in health, blockchain explain better. That you are enrolled, you get an incident, you then can update us in ensure that you now have renewed your premium to get the services. I think where the gap is, is first of all, explaining the success stories. There are so many people, like the other day last week, I was being interviewed by a media person from one of the other media. They told me, their own child, got sick. Had Shah, was taken to Agha Khan three, four days, and something like 390,000. Shabbat. So we never seen those success stories. We never hyped them. We picked this one case where, the person was not properly enrolled. Or in fact, did not renew. And it says, oh, my share into work. Oh, in fact, they have exhausted where they should have actually gone to the next level because it's got all these things. Let me. Let me. Let me. Because we are running out of time, but that's the. I think I see the crops of the communication issue here. Yes. Because there are a lot of success stories. And just talked about them on the show. We've had them, we featured them, true. But then there are also a lot of genuine issues, like with Shah. One being the means testing. A lot of people saying, even the 300, I may not be able to afford. Even being. And then the other issue of, again, covers for certain things, especially chronic illnesses, that they often exhaust and chronic illnesses are so vast that sometimes the limits put are not sufficient. And that's coming from healthcare providers and from patients as well. So, we want to push the positive, but then we also have to push the feedback that is actual. So that's what I was talking about, like, the condiffensiveness. Yeah. Because it's true. Success stories are many, but these issues are also made of that. No, I think you raise a very valid point. Like, we obviously have areas that can actually do better, can be adjusted. Like, you are sort of critical, sort of critical illness and all that. And, maybe, one of these days, you need to get a lot more loga to come to the studio and explain to you. There are cases where Shah will pay for people to go overseas. True. There are cases where Shah comes out of those things. Actually, Shah picks, because then you're going to critical illness cover, which is actually provided for Shah as well. But it's a procedure that you actually have to go through with your doctors and then you're not admitted into the next level. And that also covers you. But what we then have is actually more information as a matter. It's not out, so people do not understand when they don't understand. They blame, or they complain. What we need to do is overcommunicate. First of all, out the scheme works. And I think there was a clip I saw on social media. Our medical doctor was explaining. I don't know if the nation was like explaining in a very soft, gentle way. I don't know if this thing works. This is a cover like another Shah has cover. These are your benefits. But if you exhaust, this is what you do to actually get the next cover. But you can also update. Ministers are not like custom stories. They're not like a custom system where you say, "Miriam, you belong here forever." You then can update. Say now, I actually can afford my welfare experience. I can actually pay up to $5,000. And that gives you a chance to actually benefit from the different continuum of services in Shah. But really, the story is we need to engage more. We need to get, for example, the PSS to come sit here. Ask them those questions. Especially where people have complained. And they're legitimate complaints, but a lot of it is information. One is information. Do you like your insurance? And our national media group must be having insurance cover. Sometimes we want to go for a thing though. We don't cover for chronic illness. And we say, "Okay, but what do we do?" There is another reason. Maybe the employees, maybe there is a management discretion. Those things exist in Shah as well. Yes. Good. We've been in conversation with PS Stephen Isaboke. And you know, an hour and a half. And we'll continue having this conversation on all things. Communication, the communication policy as it is. We should definitely do like a half year check. And a full year check just to see how that will have built up. And also, what is the two way communication? Because again, it can't be one way. Feedback has to be received.