Can a steak be too buttery?

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Touch raining in the Gallagher Prime. Try to work it out. We had four hot tricks already this season. Four hot tricks. Wade, Hammerweb, Tommy Freeman. Slyam. An Oli Slyam. Four. When did the wake at a hat trick on the weekend? Three, yeah. Yeah, it took up to 100. Took up to 100. What a way to do it. Raised a bat. Oh, man. It's a lot. An attack seems to be the thing right across the weekend. We're about to have an interesting debate about it. Can you have too much of a good thing, CJ? Yeah, can your steak be too buttery? What would Sean Edwards think about the league currently? Man of the moment. Another topic of conversation. What do we got? We got Edwards. We've got tries. Too many tries, just the right number. We'll discuss. We've got blood slow. We've got you RC. Do you say glets slow? You say blood is slow. What you say is low? Blood is low. We've got draft system. We do. We've got what we don't. Well, we have a counter to the draft system proposal that Danny laid out last weekend. Yeah. Danny's exclusive about the RFU plans for a draft system. Probably wasn't allowed to say that. It's all coming up with Danny Care. With the good one, you were Chris Jones. This is your favourite rugby podcast. Of all time, rugby and weekly. No, James Payton's got a hat trick. It's five. Five hat tricks. So the two highest scoring matches in pre-history are now Northampton victories at the Gardens. In the last six months? Record 127 came in May, 2026, when Saints battered Bristol 94, 33. You boys were both there on the weekend. 119 points. Saint 71. Bath, 48. Please discuss. It's funny. I spoke to someone from Newcastle. Last week of the week before. I said, "Oh, we got stitched up by playing Northampton Saints first." I said, "I honestly think it's a blessing in disguise." Because, yes, they're the champions. You're not expected to win at the Gardens, but when they get in their groove, they can be a very, very good team to beat. So, you know, almost one week, one version of Northampton Saints, then definitely the version we saw on Saturday. I don't think that's the first thing to say is how good Northampton's attacking players. And I know that's not a new point, but there is so much to enjoy when you watch Northampton get in going. But I felt exactly the same thing after the Bristol game. I felt, "Wow, how good on Northampton the ball in hand, but a team like Bristol shouldn't be conceding 94 points." And I believe that about a team like Bath should not be shipping 71 points. They're the bookies favorites to win the league. I know they rotated a couple of players, but he brought on a whole international pack, basically, in the second half. There is no planet on Earth where Bath should be conceding 71 points, regardless of how incredibly good the Northampton attack is, and it is wicked. So, the bit I'm not getting on board with when people go, "Oh, would you rather a 9-3?" Well, it depends. It depends on the jeopardy around the game and the accuracy in the game. But that's an extreme. They're two extremes. This is the thing. A 9-3 dogfight in a terrible weather with load of mud is an extreme, and the potential champions in 71 points is an extreme. So, you don't have to like the extremes. I thought the rugby was great, but the tip for that nature of it in the first half, you score, you score, you score, we score. I don't think that is particularly what we want in top level rugby, but it doesn't have to happen every week. I think we've got to be careful because we want entertainment. We want more eyes on the sport. And I do think a way of getting probably younger people into the sport and enjoying it is to see a load of tries and a load of celebrations. That's what kind of makes the headlines. I think for rugby purists, and when you grow to love more and more about the sport, is the key word is a contest. You want it to be a contest. I want it to be harder to score tries while still seeing great tries scored. I think there's a real balance there. I think I feel so sorry for defensive coaches at the minute. I mean, I love in the memes around rugby at the minute. I think no context sport are doing load of memes, and they're brilliant. Straight after the games, they're getting them out there like football. But there was what about two defensive coaches just like looking at each other laughing, but also crying at the same time. And it's so true at the minute, because if you're a defensive coach in the premin at the minute, how do you make your team not concede more than four tries again? I think it's almost impossible when a team's fairly decent attack that you're going up against. Like, and we were in the press room at Saracen's watching the game, and you've got loads of people from the various media outlets all asking the same question like, how do you actually stop this attack? Do you need to kill the ball within two phases? Do you need to be really soft on the first defensive play to push them to an edge, and then hammer that break down and slow them down like, but whatever it is, we've got some brilliant coaches, brilliant minds, and I'll eager them in it. No one's able to do it yet. So the worry for me is that that becomes the norm, and I think then maybe the refs and the rules need to step in somewhere, but I do feel like a bit of a hypocrite because I love attacking rugby, but I'll go back to my original point. I love attacking rugby when it's hard to break down a really good defence. Two-listen-to-listen-to-listen-to-listen-to-listen-to-listen-to-listen-to-listen-to-listen-to-listen - because it has split the room, this kind of thing. Scott, I was bored after 50 minutes, as a one-off, it would be great before too many games with too many tries at the moment, looking forward to the pods to see what you think. And Robert Barthman, he says, "As a Barthman, I didn't enjoy them watching them concede as many points they did, but I enjoyed even less the game in general. When a try becomes inevitable, and Robert Barthman, he says, "When a try becomes inevitable, it has lost its special moment when it's being scored. I completely agree the skills and show what unbelievable should be admired, but when those skills are facing 14 men, they're becoming possible to defend, we end up in a sevens game of missed tackles and scores. So there's loads to get at, and all those reasons I spoke to San Vesdae, because after the game, about why San Vesdae has been scored in certain matches, and it's a combination of reasons. Offside line is being pleased so harshly, that if your back foot offside, pen, pen, pen, yellow, yellow, yellow, break down, all the rights are going to the attacking teams in certain matches, conditions, and some quality attack as well. All goes into it." I don't know. There's a number of things. Firstly, how do you stop it? Well, Pat Lam stopped it last week. That was a ferocious, physical, dominant defensive display against a very, very good attacking team from Northampton. So that's one way. So we do have examples, and it was literally just within the last seven days. I think the hardest thing to do in rugby school tries, because the best teams do it, and the crap ones can't. But watching Saturday, and I really, really enjoyed Saturday, but what I would say is, tries did feel less special on Saturday, because there were just so many of them. I enjoyed the game for the first 50 minutes, and then it was 11 tries to seven. So they didn't feel as special. I didn't get as excited, because I was another one. It's another one. You know, people say, sometimes you can have too much of a good thing. And maybe Saturday was the perfect example of that, but I'd much prefer to see one-off cases, like that on Saturday, than one-off cases of low scoring matches, because our games become too defensive, and it's become too much about attack. We need to bring context into the conversation, whereby, a few years ago, we're talking about so much kicking, so much negativity, all been about defences, all been about power game. We get one example, one example, of a type of game like this, and now it's split in the room. You will, every now and again, get this type of game. But if that means we get more games which are focused on attack in the middle, I'm here for every single title. Yeah, I agree with that. This has come across as, you know, my steak is do buttery kind of thing, but if they're not right, well, it's people complaining about too much of a good thing, because people like buttery steak, and I've taken it to my cooking, When you're doing a steak, you cook it in butter and then constantly soak the butter back into the steak. So spoon the butter into the steak, into the steak, into the steak. Would you do 10 minutes constantly doing it? Do you salt and pepper before, and you'll learn this from Paddy when I live with him? Leave the steak to rest and salt and pepper if half an hour if you can. Wow, an hour. Yeah. But anyway, sorry. We die grass. Buttery steaks are good. Can they be too buttery? Probably not. I think so. Just some roses. It's a one off. If it's the fact it's not a one off such there are a few score lines like this that have crept it and whether that's, of course, the balance, the contest is everything. But also, not all attack means bad defense is not that simple equation. Sometimes you just get really, really good attack. I'm not saying we didn't see any signs of poor defense in the weekend. But good attack doesn't always equate to bad defense. Sometimes it's just brilliant attack and on Saturday and I was it Alex Coles is tried. That was not bad defense. That was unbelievable attack. That's when it went offload, offload, offload, basketball from Dingwall and then Fin Smith out the back door to that. That was just sensational attack. I had a look at bar's defensive numbers. Guess what their tackle completion was on Saturday as a percentage? I don't know. 76%. Not horrendous. No. They weren't waving them through. That's not a thing. I felt that. That's what I mean. I'm putting shots in. Another point best he made is people are tackling lower. And if the tackle height legally comes lower, which is inevitable, offloads come into it. So the weird thing about this is clearly the numbers have gone through the roof. Numbers have tried to go on through the roof 18 in a game. But it's not one reason. It's kind of an amalgamation of reasons, maybe like five different factors that all come into it. Do you think, because the international game isn't like that yet? Or ever. The stakes go, the stakes are higher, the tension is up. But do you think that's the good point to people? There's better defensive players on the pitch. Like I look at. Better breakdown players, definitely, I think. I look at Alex Mitchell's try from the weekend, brilliant bit of skill. Not in a month or Sunday's, does he score that in an international test match? Because. Well, the nine just disappears into the back line, yes. The nine flies out, there's no one in the backfield and you're like, I mean, that just wouldn't happen. I think he thought all his Christmases came at once when he looked in the behind the thought, I'm just going to grab a kick this through five meters, pick it up and score. So I do feel like we're seeing defensive frailties also, like I agree, because they're not all easy, but some of them are like too easy. I think the mall is becoming a bit of an issue, I think it's too easy for teams to score. That's only just starting. This looks like I'm just starting. So if you go penalty penalty penalty and you get yourself up the field, you get to a five meter line, basically you've got bad execution of an attacking mall if you don't score a try there. Look at Friday. It's just more to more than that. It's becoming really hard for the team to stop it. So I would challenge defensive players need to be better, but then is that a mindset of these players currently where they're like, do you know what? If they score it, it doesn't really matter. We're going to get a load of opportunities to get them back. So does it matter enough to defend your line? I don't know. Could you say that across the weekend of rugby? Because I thought we saw really competitive, like high scoring games, Saracens by the way are the outlier in all of this. I think they're the most traditional, the stylistically the most traditional rugby team we've got in the league. You look at all three of their matches, their arm wrestles, and if someone's become in, I know we've discussed Saracens and how sometimes they want to be light. We don't follow the trend, we create our own, but they scored a try. Mystic conversion went penalty penalty 11-0. They're the only team at the moment that are building a score like that. They go in pressure on the pitch, attack and defend and pressure on the school board, where everyone else is looking just to hunt and find that next try. So beyond them and across the league, whether it's at Sandy Parker or up its sail, Lester, there was loads of try scored, but the contest was intact. There was a contest I thought for 60 minutes. It was just a very high scoring contest, and then he got silly in the final quarter. Yeah, but weirdly, I preferred the final quarter, because you saw Northampton at their best. What I thought you saw in the first half was it, and Sam Vestey also made this point. A bit too basketball, whoever had the ball scored a try. And so it had this in the nation's championship, the South of Scotland game, was just scored in sevens. It hit when there's light and shade to the scoring and there's penalty. It's a prem thing, because don't get the same as in the URC, look at the Zebra Edinburgh game. Edinburgh early pen kick the goal. Three, no. If that's the prem they're keeping for the corner, because they know the way the game is officiated, you're more likely to get changed that way. So I just think the value and your point Danny about needing to defend your line with everything, you played only a couple of years ago when this was coming in. It must have not felt like the value of a try was the same as when you came through. Look at the Norwegian Icelandic Danish leagues in football, they're full of goals, but doesn't mean people, goals don't necessarily mean great football. Like the Icelandic leagues, follow the Icelandic scores one weekend. It's two or two or by half time, you know? Yeah. But no one's flocking to the Icelandic league. I know the quality's not the same, but it's not a goal or a try. Do you always bet over two and a half goals on those, is that why you like it? It's a goal and a try needs to think about a goal, it is massive in football, and it's not the same. But you still got to think, look at World Cup finals, Africa didn't score a single try in semi-final and final combined. I know that's. You can't compare. I know you can't compare, but I'm saying World Cup serving. A good rugby doesn't have to be high scoring. No, of course. Performance in English rugby history, to many, England won 19/7, one try after two minutes, 75 minutes plus without a try, didn't matter, good attacking physical, accurate rugby. So there's loads of new ones here. I think the attack Northampton are doing is pushing the bar, raising the bars, pushing the boundaries, but I still think tries need to retain some real value. I agree, but it is, and anomaly, like we keep talking about bar. Saints conceded 48 points. I guess what their tackle success was at the weekend, 90%. They completed 90% of their tackles and they still conceded 48 points. So that's what I mean. Good attack doesn't mean bad defence. Hey, there were mistakes, but I think we have this in perfect game, which the imperfections sometimes enhance our game. If you watched a football match where four lads on the pitch had bad touches, you know bad a football game would be. Actually a drop ball means turnover, means chaos, means creativity, means fluency. So sometimes mistakes in our game opens up the pitch and opens up space and then rewards the most creative and the best at execution. So I don't mind it. To concede 48 points, but you only miss 10% of your tackles and Northampton almost completed 200 tackles at the weekend. So I like the conversation around it. I don't like the overaction around it because it is round three and it is just one game and I understand why we're having the conversation. I didn't love it. It wasn't my favourite game at the weekend, but some of my favourite moments were from that match because there were some brilliant individual moments. I think that game was the perfect storm. Two best attacks in the league. So clinical, sunny day, dry ball, quick pitch, quick pitch, amazing pitch and you saw some of the best attacking tries you'll see in a long time. If you put Sarasons in that game against Northampton, do you think Saras can see 70 points? Well they don't score 40 yet. They don't score 48, but I still think Saints have got the ability to carry that. But I think with the way the game is officiated and all those other factors, the good attacks are getting rewarded. But you still need to have an attack, don't you? You still can't just rock up, you have the ball and just get tries just from literally keeping hold of it and smashing one at runners. That doesn't still doesn't get you points. That's not saying the wind will help me in the second half. They'll only help if you use it, like having a set of laws that are perhaps favouring an attack. You still need to have a good attack. I was thinking about this across the weekend. Remember the third place player from the World Cup to England and France? That was 6-4, but that lacked intensity, bit of a motion or the rest of it. And so yes, it was wicked to see England score six goals, but no one came way thinking off so proud of that, on Saturday at the Gardens, there was loads of intensity, there was loads of motion, there was loads of drive, there was loads on the line. So if the consequence of the laws and the game been favoured more towards attack, I'll accept that result once a month, once every two months in favour of seeing what we generally see at the moment. My brother summed it up really well, he went fun game but two top teams hitting it out shouldn't be a hundred point game. Why? Maybe that's how it conditioned, that's how it conditioned watching Lester Wasp and the old Delalio Johnson era smashing each other out in high intensity games. It then feeds into whether this is prepping teams and players for international rugby. And I do think Steve Borthwick is not watching that with a massive smile on his face. I think he's watching that thinking, it's preparing teams in some ways because the catch pass and the skill level is through the roof and that's got to help, but is it preparing teams in terms of breakdown? Because the breakdown is going to be rough differently come November. I promise you the breakdown will be rough differently. The offside line won't be as fat and Jacklers will be able to get their hands on the ball and slow it up. But we've seen in November more. a'r 20% increase of holding on penalties. I think this league has started at such a pace and it's been so killed towards attack. We are just seeing the league recalibrate in terms of laws, refereeing, the mall. This is the first time we're seeing it live even though it's been around since June. I think was it June the 1st. So yeah, it's just, I think the league's still betting in. We're getting players coming back everything else. You look at Bath against Saints in the Premier Final 24. That was 25-21 as a school line. So we know the domestic game doesn't necessarily reflect the playoffs, which then doesn't reflect a final, which definitely doesn't reflect international. Which doesn't reflect six nations, which doesn't reflect World Cup knockouts. It's all different. It's all like the Premier League and football doesn't reflect the nation's league. Yeah, or Champions League knockouts. Yeah. Yeah. And just to give, there was a time when you were in Rory Hutchinson and I was trying to sell out. I've noticed this because my, my page of notes and I was putting a T next to everyone at school. And there was a time when Mitchell at school, Finnsmith at schooled, Slight Herb at schooled, Freeman at schooled, Dingwall at schooled, and Pater at schooled. Yeah. The whole backline and Hutchinson at school, it's allowed. And I was like, that is one for the stats if every single member of a starting backline at school to try. But it got this allowed. And I want to give some love to another play. He didn't, he did score. Who? Who I think is just turning into an absolute proper player is Alex Coles. In the loose, in the tight, his ball handling, his carrying. For me, the player, the match even though they scored 18 tries and Slight Home got three and Freeman got two. Does he start for England? Yes. Ches, I think, oh, for the Ches. You got a bit of habit. Yeah. I know. I mean, my master's captain, so yeah. Yeah, my master's captain. So Alex Coles, Morrow in the. Colesy, yeah. And then, GM. And then, I think Ollie Cheson goes to six. Yeah, but then Martin fit, you have to play Martin, don't you? Where's he playing? Second row. With. With the captain. Ches. With the two, Jay. That's the thing. I mean, I've just picked up Coles. But I think Martin in Test Rugby is kind of one of those non-negotiables if he's fit and in form. I've started for his first game of the weekend. Oh, good. I mean, I remember, was it two years ago, we were wondering where all the second rows were? I was like, oh, court knees out in France. Dave Rubens down in Touland doing a madness. We're up like, we've got, without getting all delusmith. Where are they? But as it stands, we have got a lot of very good second row hybrid sixes. Very good. Morrow can play six. Ches and Blake. Morrow say six. But I think we can. Yeah, yeah, very good. Christian Wade. Yep. 100. As he's not on this pod, just to be clear, that is a bit like Johan Van Grand leaving some power on the bench or Pat Lam not taking some of his stars to Saris. It's just a rotation thing with actually this week. He's not been left out for any other reason. You know, I sat on the bench last weekend. Yeah. Happens to all of us. But the point is, so so as she is, he's one of these one away now. And I think it has actually said last week, even if Wade breaks it. Tommy Freeman's got five tries this season. Did he score in Bristol? You were there? Did Tommy Freeman score against Bristol? I don't think he did it. Drew Tendi's going to come with me now. So, but anyway, he's five and three. He's an idlerous reason. Yeah, exactly. He should have gone for that. But he's so, so Freeman's five and three. And it's not as if everyone's like, oh my god, Tommy Freeman started like a train. He's got five and three. Well, that's just standard. One of those wingers for North Ants in a weekend will get three. Yeah. They should have one of the top tri-score and wingers in the country every single year with the amount of board that they have and create. They just should. But Wade, I've got a lot of time. I know that we want Ashley to keep the record forever. But do we? Well, I like it when sort of in commentary, I can say, English rugby's greatest tri-score is with us on five live. Yeah. Yeah. And then you never refer to me as the fourth greatest tri-score in English. It doesn't have the same ring. Yeah. Yeah. But do you have moniker next time you're doing a comms with us? Do you have something that I could make you sound better? Multiple prem title winner, England Centurion. Is there a record you hold? No, that'll do. Because that's not enough. We're in two prem titles. No, I think it's incredibly impressive. Is there something you could just add to make your sound better? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Without a shadow of a doubt, combined assistance. I know. So how would that set, like, the. To add to being this rugby's greatest tri-score and score. Right. If you're. If you want to call me the greatest planet. I'd love Ashley to keep my words. To keep the record. But a lot of time, how Christian Wade's done this. I know he's not got it yet, but, you know, he will. Yeah. He's. He's done all he's done at wasps. Then he's gone to American football. Then he's come back to play for Gloucester. Then he's gone to play rugby league for a little bit. And now he's gone back to play for a new castle team that have been struggling for wins. They were. I thought they looked really good at time at the sandy par. And he's up there, so. Yeah, we'll get him on in and around the time I have. He won't break it this weekend, though. Yeah, because they're on-premises here. Yeah. Because three weeks into season, we're going to have one round of Europe and then pause it till December. I don't mind that clive. Let me finish. Because one of my big laments has been the European Cup starting in December. Because I think it starts terribly for the blue-red band -contestioners, true. -European club rugby. It will be lost this weekend. Potentially. And I'm not saying. I'm not saying a one-off is the answer, Hugo. But we could all agree, could we not? That the European Cup was better when it started in October as opposed to December. Agreed. But. And we've discussed this at length for times. And. Hey, there's a lot. There's a lot of people in. who have a far greater sight of scheduling fixtures, the needs, the demands of all the different leagues. But why not, in the same way, the nation's league went to a three-week block to stop it from being so staccato? Why not take December's fixture, bolt it on to October, have two weeks back to back, and then. And then we'll move to November, aren't we? Well, yeah. And then everything shuts down. Of course, but it's shutting down anyway. That's the inevitability of the November international international championship, but to have one random week now, followed by a random week in December. So everyone's forgotten about everything that happened two months ago, to then resuscitate, re-launch it, have one round in December after the nation championship, to then start it again in January, right? So then have one round of. That doesn't make sense. No, the calendar doesn't, and I think even if you speak to people at the top of the decision-making who set the calendar, they would say it doesn't work. But I do. If they had a blank canvas, there was no way on Earth, anyone would think this was a good idea. I will tell you what, this is how we'll form our season schedule. No one would. No one would. But we have what we've got. Yeah. There is a Champions Cup preview pod coming out of the week, and I think the Champions Cup, as ever, is going to have the same problems we have every year, which it starts slow, finishes fast, and it's an amazing competition come the end. I think it is better starting in October than December, but I complete take a point of one or four hours. And to lose our border, wouldn't it? Probably isn't going too much for you. Spoiler alert, that's going to happen in May. It's calling it now, wouldn't it? A couple of bits on the Sunday games, because we spoke about Saturday and the 71 points. I think the league has started fantastically well, when Harlequin's who are completely written off, go to sail and get incredibly close to winning. And the headlines will all say, "Woe continues for quins." But they played so much better, and at one point, they're ten points up. At a place, which has not been a fortress last season, but traditionally, is a very tough place to win. And then Newcastle, again, at Exeter probably hasn't been the fortress for the last few years. It has been evolved. It's still an incredibly tough place to win. And they are well in that game. Well in that game. Then the young lad comes off the bench, DL, son of the Scotland forwards coach John DL. He looks class, AJT. There's a lot going on at the Red Bulls, not least, way going for the record. But I thought Sunday, yes, it would have been great if one of those underdogs had nicked the win, but those games to be so competitive, I think, was class. As we said, contests, and as Harlequin's, they had to make their game a contest. They did, I thought, having Marcus Smith back obviously helps. Everything, but you cannot just rely on that one guy. For me, we talked about Harlequin's here for a second. Does their intent from minute one was just a bit more attacking? Which is what the club is all about. So, you've lo and behold, you've got dangerous players out wide. Get them the ball. Starts with being physical and having to set peace, but then Marcus being out of the back, being that threat, was Britain. And Quinn's did almost everything they needed to do. They led for about 70 odd minutes. I think we're a bit of a context there. I'm not as hot on sailors, I think you are, and as she is. I personally don't think sail will be top four this year. So I do think there's context there. I think that was a team Quinn's could beat. So I don't see that as a team that Quinn's can't go and beat there anymore. Say it again, just dug it out when they needed to. It helps having that experience, probably on the pitch, in those dying moments. And then you go over the other way to extra new castle. What a brilliant game. because it's a contest. It's not a blowout. Newcastle have got some proper players that can score tries and cause problems, and they can mix it up front as well. Exeter's still not hitting their straps properly from last year, but good for them just to get a win to reset a little bit. But, you know, Wadey and his Red Bulls give it a good go. Did, yeah. I was pleased with Harlequin to respond in the way, which I expected them to. They scored. The same amount of points they scored in the opening two rounds in the first 18 minutes of the game again, so. But, conversely, to the conversation we had about them last week, at least when they go into training today, there's a number of different parts of their games in the light. We've got building blocks in, which we should be able to elevate and see where we go. They're back into you at this week. They're in the challenge cup. Whilst they still haven't got a win this week, they've got a performance that they can work from, and then they'll be desperate to get a win this weekend, because whilst there isn't improved performance, we're a month into the season now. Need to see a win. It's a brilliant competition for them to be in, I think, the challenge cup. It's a bit of a level up. I don't think they're good enough to be in the Champions Cup currently. What's happened in the Chiefs last year? I know they got far, but it massively helps. Massively. Not having to go to Bordeaux or somewhere. If Queens are traveling to Bordeaux and Lester at the minute, then you're going to get the same results. We've got a couple of years ago going to Lester and getting beaten by 62 points to them. I think the challenge cup is a real great test for them to show what they're all about. I'd be challenging Queens, and I'm sure the coaches are. Go and win that competition. Go as far as you possibly can and try and get some silverware, try and get some feel good back in the room, because that's where the club's at at the minute. So, I think the sooner they realise that and embrace that, rather than feeling sorry for themselves thinking, "Oh, we deserve to be in the Champions Cup." The facts are, the club doesn't at the minute. So, like the club did back in 2011, there was a focus from minute one of silverware. Let's go and get some silverware. Go and play the bottom team in top 14 at home. Do a job on them. Start that well. Maybe get some feel good going back into the league in two weeks time. Look what the Dragon showed last year. Challenge Cup semi-final Exeter. Challenge Cup semi-final, Ulster Ulster Ulster. I think it's one of those competitions you can go really deep in it. I think winning it is an extra hurdle, because then you come up against a. Because Chiefs look very, very good until they had to go to Ulster. And then Ulster look very good until they played Montpellier. This is on neutral territory, and they were destroyed. Yeah. Because Montpellier are a Champions Cup team in. Can I just question, not overall and Sunday, but perhaps even greater than that just on the league. Seeing how well Newcastle performed in the open three weeks been so competitive. Make it to go away to Chiefs, to come away with two points. They've got four points in the open three matches. They feel like whilst they're not going to win loads and loads of matches, I think they'll take points from most matches. Do you think we're going to see the most competitive season we've ever seen now? I think it's at least three or four teams have improved. Like Gloucester have clearly improved. Bristol have clearly improved. Newcastle have clearly improved. Our Harlequin's regressing are extra-aggressing. It's probably too early to say. And I think in terms of the attack. I did back sale in the Saturdays for the top four, but their attacking game is miles off, especially some of the top attacking teams. And then you look at the point we made earlier about the laws and the officiating and the conditions really do encourage the best attacks to. We'll mean the best attacks to get their rewards. So, yeah, I think it's really well set up. Do you want to read this message out from David, though, guys? He said, "Will the pod be discussing the big drop in crowd sizes in the premises?" And I was shocked at the amount of empty seats at Welford Road on Friday night, and the closure of the stand at Sandy Park. We've seen a big drop in attendance numbers that sail as well this year. It's all really grim and would benefit from some analysis. Really grim. I don't know if it's really grim. I was, uh, my telly was Welford Road Friday night. It wasn't at empty. Do you know the most the longer thing about Friday night? You guys don't know if you've watched it at home, but Prince Harry was there, right? So, we know where he sat. Our director gets a camera shot of him, puts him on the big screen. Just be like, "Oh look, look who you've got on the house." Then the chorus of booze. "Really?" "We have to come. " "We have to take him. " "Take him off the big screen." "Because you felt as if. " "You know, someone goes up on the screen and takes one, two seconds. " "Oh look, they're such and such." By that point, the whole stadium recognised it was him. It was only like the booze were just getting louder. I was in commentary with Nick Marlins and Simon Warburton and we all looked each other like, "Oh my gosh, that was unexpected." That was kind of nuts. I think a lot of time with booze, they're a bit pantomime. It's in the 23 World Cup and the way the French do it and. Eddie Jones. Eddie Jones being up on the screen at Twickenham and I think a lot of it is people. I think it's sort of an instinctive reaction. Is it? How many games have you been to? There's been like a celebrity in the crowd or whatever who's gone up. I've rarely heard booze. I suppose the other option is a big cheer. Of course. But you know, I don't think. Oh, nothing. But I don't think Prince Harry's going to get a big cheer. So that's perhaps the other option just to be able to go, "Oh, look, it's Prince Harry." It's Prince Harry's crack on, you don't have to be, obviously. I mean, I wouldn't. I wouldn't boo Prince Harry. I mean, maybe that's just. No. His life's always choice. No choice. Yeah, his choice is. His choice is like that. Yeah, yeah, his choices are his choices. I mean, it's amazing that. I mean, we know Prince Harry loves rugby. He's an affiliation rugby since he was really young. And I think it's really cool that he started to go and watch Prem rugby and have a beer with his mates. Like, I think that's wicked. I think we should celebrate that rather than. than boo that, gentlemen. So. But on the point about Leicester Tigers, I can see it. They posted this the day before their game. So the terrace was sold out. 91% of Matioli Woodstand was sold out. The other stands, which is the Europe cast stand, that's 91% sold out. And then the. I mean, they're all branded stands. And then, whatever it is. You're desperate to get them out. And the other stand was 96% to overalls, over 90% of. And Friday night with the transport. Friday night to not great for Leicester. A lot of the fans come from the villages outside. Still pretty good, though. And they've got. The concern would be there are only 10 home games. So you would like them all to be packed to the rafters. I think the clubs also need to be cognizant of the cost of living crisis. And there's chat around. I mean, some of the bath prices, bath does sell out. So they're getting their pricing right. Some of the quins, but I think Exeter, there was some ticket to. Extortion amount of money. So you just have to be. Look, clubs need to make their money on match days. You do not blame them for trying to, you know, maximise their returns on ticket sales. But they've just got to be really careful. Who's going from Newcastle to Sandy Park? 3 p.m. on a Sunday. From an away point of view. Very, very few from an away point of view. But then you'd like to think that such a well-supported club that just had all that investment that reached the final last year. All of those home games have been high demand. There are always factors. I just think everyone needs to, you know, make sure the ticket price is. Ensure that you can maximise, but get as much money as possible. But you've got to get people in the door as well. But then it's probably down to the clubs to try and create ways of getting every seat filled, whether that's, I know the club's got to make money, but give some tickets or cheaper tickets to people that maybe haven't been to watch the rugby game before. I was at the NFL. Tollum Hotspur Stadium. And I thought it was such a cool experiment. I came in on the train. I sat next to some Philadelphia Eagles fans. And it was obvious there were Eagles fans because they had every bit of, like, merchandise gathered. Same as you, I saw you, yeah. You're an eagle, huh? You're an eagle fan? Yeah, I'm an eagle fan, yeah. Well, you think, like, Nigerian, like they're called the Super Eagles? Yeah, makes total sense, yeah. So I said to some husband and wife, I said, "How do you feel about losing one of your home matches and then having to travel all the way to England because this is the conversation that's live with regards to six nations and the Gallagher Prime Minister or the rest of it?" And they just said, "We love it." Granted, they clearly can afford it. Because that's the most obvious barrier to most people. But I love their attitude, they're like, "We get to CRT, we get to travel, and we get to explore around London." Which, for me, whenever I think about sport, I think, let's, I think we almost need to change a lens which we looked for it. For them, it was a day out as an event. I left my house yesterday at 10 a.m. I got back at 9. I actually made a note of it, right? So we often lament the fact that rugby takes too long and like a 100-minute game, so an 80-minute game can take 100-minute, right? So we had a 13-second to play. So from kickoff, 13-second to play before the first whistle and that took seven minutes to complete. 13 seconds. What the NFL do, which is a 60-minute game, played over four hours, they fill in the blanks so well. But they know those blanks are so engaged. They know the blanks are coming in in NFL. Yes, no, they're reactive. Because you know when they're down or where there's a whistle, there will be a stoppage. In rugby, it's when there's a sort of a try has been scored and everyone's into it and then up to the big screen, three, four minutes, looking at foul. That's where people get frustrated because it's come when they're not wanting it. That's how the NFL games started yesterday. There was 13 seconds off the kickoff, there was a touchdown scored off the kickoff, and then it got reviewed six minutes. What do they do? What was the entertainment? They had a DJ and a band in the stands. They had all the things we kind of have in rugby. slightly probably better funded, I would say, and it is a money thing. But I thought, as an experience yesterday, for someone who knows not a huge amount about NFL, I was thinking about the casual rugby fan that comes to watch rugby, that might not know the laws, what experience are we offering them? How much are they enjoying it? I didn't know a huge amount about the game, but I had such a good day out. And yeah, it's funny that America trying to conquer the UK was way too long ago. America, you know? Well, we're talking of America. Talk to me. Something that they do is that draft, the draft system. Yeah, a college, and all the college players would be drafted. And you brought it up, last pot, about a potential draft system for young players to make sure they aren't stockpiled at certain clubs. And you mentioned that Northampton have four nines on their book. So I saw Phil Delson last week and asked him about it. I think the first question I'd ask is, why are we managed to do that? So what's our pathway doing to create? You know, nines that pit the ball up and run at defences and have a great skill set, pass kick, skill set, you know? So I think a great question to us would be around Mark Coppoli and how he's developing these guys from an '18s, '20s, Archie McPyland and Alex Mitchell, his British line. Yeah, and I think the draft system's interesting. And I would prefer to see it as the market would work its way out, you know, in terms of if someone's looking for a nine, then that's how it works. And we speak to agents all the time. And you see it in all sports rugby as well, is that if someone's feeling trapped and not getting minutes, then they generally leave. Yeah. But I also think you need two for every much day. You need two quality ones for every much day. And at the moment, sunny good is learning a huge amount of my training. Johnny Wyman, who's the under '20s player who's doing an exceptional job at Bedford, playing championship rugby week and week out. You know, I think they're getting good minutes. Yeah. And sunny good will continue to get good minutes with the '20s as well. I hope. So yeah, so I would, obviously, in my personal take, slight unbridge it. Oh, you've got too many nines. Give one away. Because you develop them and you're doing it together. Yeah, and we're also continuing to develop them. I'm continuing to play them. And they're playing plenty of minutes. You know, if Argy starts in place 50 and Mitch gets 30, I think that's a great position for England to be in. Whilst JVP is still playing Raffy Quirk's going, Lucas Friday, Bracken, you know, and I've not even mentioned Ben Spencer and Harry Randall. You know, I think we're in a great position from a nine's point of view. I don't think we need to start going on about drafts and you need to move players. Yeah, because it's a nice idea, isn't it? You see it in America. Yeah, yeah. The American system, the youth system in America is entirely different from college system and the way the draft system is, I don't see how that works. Just the joy of rugby, for my point of view, is we've got a guy who fell out of it. Well, I lost a little, it's a great example. Fell out of the academy. When I played men's rugby, came back around and became club captain, brilliant. James Bennett went to Loughborough Uni, started playing at Loughborough Uni, played brilliantly. He's now on loan at Bedford Training, where there's every week and I've got no doubt in my mind that he'll play for my show rugby. There's loads of different ways of doing it. And I don't think the draft system would work in terms of giving opportunity for those late developers or those positional groups that do take time. Front row, type five guys. Yeah, I'm skeptical about that, but I'm always happy to listen to people with ideas. Yeah, I don't think it's anything set in stone. I think Danny mentioned that Connoe Shade had brought it up. I just, you can see the merits, but then you want good systems to be rewarded and otherwise people could say, well, I don't need to develop a hooker because I'll just pick one up in the draft. Yeah. And I think we were talking just before around how competitive the league is. The league's flat out. There's a really good development pathway and lots of different areas. There's so many good players around. And so I think we've got to be careful about, using the Rob Baxter line of tampering with stuff when it doesn't need to be tampered with when actually we're producing a ton of really high quality players. There's a good deflect from you there, wasn't it? When you got put on the back foot. It was DC's idea. There's nothing to do with me. Definitely to make DC's. It's the RFU and Danny's. Yeah, yeah. Just got a DC in Connoir in when I did say, I don't know if I'm sharing things that shouldn't be shared. But I think it's just quite common knowledge at the RFU are interested in this kind of idea. And they're looking at the Northern Hampton 9s as an example of all those guys going to get off minutes. Did you find Phil Dalson's argument or compelling one? Yeah, absolutely. Everything that Dals says, I mean, we know Dalson playing with him against him for so many years, and I mean, he's brilliant. He's a brilliant DOR, and everything he speaks there. You could say, yeah, this can make complete sense. If you are a DOR of a club and you've got four really promising young English nights, of course you want to keep all four. But I think the worry for some players, and without the A-League now, the A-League used to be a massive thing for clubs. And if you weren't playing first team, you're playing A-League Monday night, and it was proper competitive. We'd play Monday nights at the stoop, some games, and you would go up against Saracens. And I mean, I've played against Andy Farrell in an A-League game, or you'd have Chris Chesner. You'd have some proper experienced men playing against you that you would learn your craft against. So I think, and Conner's point that he said was the Will Crane scenario that happened at Gloucester, which is a great story, but how many young hookers are at clubs struggling for game time that they need to progress that he would love to have said? And you take a couple of them, put them in your matchday squad, give them that experience, you know what I mean? So there's probably just a few scenarios with players that are maybe stuck aren't getting game time, aren't getting exposure that could maybe do with maybe being traded. I agree with Dallas, because I don't think there's a need for an intervention unless players are unhappy. And I'm not trying to inflate, play a power there, but he's got force from all three of them are playing really regularly, it would seem. So that's the job, or every single coach, every single Gallagher Prime Club, to make sure that they can balance their books financially, as well as try and balance the minutes of everyone, whilst using the resources that have readily available, whilst we don't have the A-League, most clubs have a connection with a champ club. So Harlequin's have London Scottish, Northampton Saints have Bedford. That, I think, is a brilliant pathway to allow people the right level of exposure at the right time. So do we need a draft system? I like the conversation of it, but it would appear, and we're talking about their top club, and they are the example that, when you've got good smart coaches in charge, then it can be managed in the appropriate way. Talking about good smart coaches, Sean Edwards will be at the World Cup next year, he will be going to the ball. Vamos. Vamos. Argentina. Chappas said on Saturdays, he's going to coach every single top team. Far from England. He's going to have to learn Spanish now. His French is obviously amazing. He's going to have to learn Spanish. Which is like, no, in him, he probably will. No, I think they'll have to learn what he needs. Jean, there's enough art, enough art. And the Argentinian players probably play in Europe and speak reasonable English. As a connection, the personality of Argentina and the personality in the way which Sean Edwards goes by is business. It fits. You like it? Yeah, it really fits, doesn't it? Of course it does. Argentina, a team that have historically been built upon, like set peace, aggression and passion. That is Sean Edwards. Like, he's not going to have to try and manufacture any sense of motivation or physicality for these lads. When they're crying during the anthem. Chappas, it's going to be all right. Let's come down a bit. Exactly. So for Sean Edwards and for Argentina, for Argentina, what a brilliant sign in. When I saw it, my first response wasn't, congratulations, Argentina's like, what? He was kind of, he was kind of, he was in the room. But details of the contract, is it just the World Cup? No, he's going after the Red Roses and WXV. He'll be in their box in November. Yeah, but as in, is it just till the World Cup? Till the combination of the World Cup, yeah. Okay, there you go. I mean, there isn't a job for England in the men's side. There isn't. There isn't, and Steve Borthick's gone from having a small coaching team to an enormous one. There's not a job, but there's a role. Well, England fans would go, hold on. Surely you explore every avenue to make the England men's team better. Rather than make, they've just, they've already got, they've got too many coaches, and they've got too many coaches. Oh, you could say if we hear a lot, you're not getting the time to run the attack. I would have, has it, has actually four defense coaches currently in the England settle? Joe Elab, Kevson Field, Richard Wiggersworth, who is the defense coach and Byron McGwiggand. So you've got four defense coaches in there already. So there isn't space for Sean Edwards. And people can have these amazing ventures. Oh, he could go in and he could help them. But like, then you've got five people. No, it's massive, who have been the defense coach or want to be the England defense coach, going for the, it just doesn't, it doesn't work. Okay, but that's one thing, but wait until the World Cup. Okay, but say you could, there was Africa after the World Cup. Yeah, but there was Africa would be, all right. Say England, I've got three good players in one position. And then someone else comes in and takes the Prem by storm and takes the Champions Cup by storm. And you wait, no, we've got a three, we've got a three-tens or a three-nine. Yeah, well, I think we're not going to make that decision. I know they're not going to make a decision close to the World Cup. There will be just fans frustrated that they've gone, "Oh, no, we're fine. We don't need Sean Edwards." People go, "Are you sure you don't need Sean Edwards?" I hear what you're saying, Danny. Are we well-stocked in England's coaching staff? Yes. For me, that doesn't mean there's not a role for Sean. And I think the, I think they're different A coaching job, as well as a coaching role, I think both can run through, and whilst there might not be space, I still think he could play a significant role, 100% and get have a huge impact, and I'm disappointed, of course I'm disappointed because he's one of the greatest defensive coaches the games ever seen, and he was available, and he was in the room actually, he was actually in the room, we obviously just don't want him, and that I think would be, I know Sean's been disappointed to not have been approached, and sorry, he has been approached by England, but a deal's never ever been done, he would tell you that he met with Bill Sweeney, that had a conversation I offer, and everything he's achieved, he'll feel he's deserving of more than just a stroll down by the River Thames, but now he's in the room and they've overlooked it, and it could be because that I want it to be too congested, too many cooks and everything else, but I reckon this would probably sting a little bit because he's fully available and a team way, way far from home has come in and swooped him, it's a great swoop, and everything's up in the air post-27, so yes, they could be an opportunity there, but who knows what anything will look like post-27, it's incredibly open. Well, I also think you're looking at the Eddie and the Steve Barthwick era, so many assistant coaches have left that building and left the RFU, God knows how much money that's cost, and big characters, the biggest character for me was Felix Jones as the defence coach, he for whatever reason, him and Steve couldn't make it work, so he left, and I just can't see Sean Edwards. You aren't going to get the best out of Sean Edwards if you're bringing him into an environment where he can't be himself, and I don't think currently he potentially could feel like he could be himself, and there's no space for him, so it's with all those factors in place, I think we all know that it works in cycles at the World Cup, after the World Cup there's going to be a load of different movements coachwise, so we'll see what happens post. You make such an instant point, Daddy, if Sean can't be himself, it's not worth having him, Sarah and I interviewed John Mitchell a couple of weeks ago at the announcement of Sean Edwards and the Red Roses, and John alluded to the fact that Sean perhaps wasn't given the autonomy that he'd need at France, and that's why that relationship broke down. I know, as a fact, that relationship broke down because Fabianne wanted to oversee and overlook everything, and in turn overlook Sean Edwards, and I think there were times where he for undermined, even if there was space and a role at England, if Sean couldn't be 100% of himself, and that relationship with him and effectively the boss, Borthwick, if that wasn't going to be harmonious then it would be more detrimental to have Sean in camp than have them at all. AOB in shout outs, shout out all blacks, Eden Pot record rolls on. Too many tries in that game for me. (Laughs) Shut up, man. I don't, there was no one shouting at the Tally, but it wasn't 18 tries, but they put four to your points in an international. Fifty points, fifty-nine-team. My bad. Fifty. Aussies then. They're good. Yeah, they are. Old school, all blacks. Where like 1714, Aussie give away a soft lineup penalty, really, really soft, and then they just get blown away. Once you lose belief in Mentor Eden Park, you guys have been there. Imagine it's, you just hear it, you just know it, you're like, okay, that's the game. You just feel it. And your blacks just go bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Yeah, suddenly it's like you're 17 points down, you're like, wait, no, we're better than that. We were in this. Yeah. We thought we were going to win this game. We're going to break the curse. We're going to beat Undertaker. You know, they're still a proper, proper good team. Yeah, they've got some touches, isn't they? Honestly, I'm excited about where they're at, they're playing some brilliant rugby. Yeah. I'm not going to overanalyze them against what we've seen against New Zealand, because I think New Zealand are world class, like them in Africa, world class. So it'd be a harsh critique, I think, of Australia, but they look good. Well, I know it's always a false dorm with Aussie, but they've got to, no, I think they've got to win this Saturday or they've got to not get beaten by 50 at home. I'd be guiding Garzi's good wins weekend. I agree. They found a way to beat South Africa. I think they're good enough to beat New Zealand on their day. And then, as you said, UGS coming over here in November, they've got some big games. As do the all blacks. Scotland will be big. Oh, and Scott, I want to just pick up on Scotland, because Glasgow, Edinburgh, one and two in the URC. And we know we've given Glasgow a lot of love, understand we saw on this part, they're URC champion season four last. They've got to the last stage of the Champions Cup. And some may say my second favourite team. Edinburgh three from three. They've won away. Oh, so they've been the stormers at home, they've won away at Zebra. Our very good friendful Grace and Sun James running the show, doing a great job off to coming back from Japan. A forward pack, guys are pretty Douglas of machine on the floor, Magnus Bradbury, big hard blokes, limo corner on the flank. I just think if you're going to have two pro teams, you want them both flying. And if Edinburgh, who have been brandyly underachievers over the last few seasons, if they can get it together, that's going to be very well for Scotland going into November. Very good start. A lot of competition. Very good start to URC for Edinburgh. Gloucester Bordeaux starts the Champions Cup. A few weeks ago, I thought, what's that? What's that as an opening game? Gloucester, two wins and a couple of losing bonus points, looking the part, that is a good, good start to that competition. How good was the end of the game on Friday night for Gloucester against Leicester? Gloucester score a try with a minute to go. George Barton takes a quick conversion, drop goals, it off the touch line, just before the clock hit 80, which meant Leicester had to reach that. Then Gloucester go 80 metres with the ball, Leicester give way a penalty. They kick the point, they come away with two bonus points, so they're top of the Gallagher Prem, flying, but different breed against Bordeaux. Great start to the competition, a couple of bonus points on the way, Ashy and Sarah, with a load of top guests from the Champions Cup. You and Sarah spoke to Peter Romani, I listened to that on my drive to Northampton on Saturday. We did. Good listen, really enjoyed that. That's out as well. The Irish amongst the great Peter Romani in conversation with Danny and Sarah. Red roses play Canada of midnight, massive gaming to Ronto, so there was so much happening this weekend, and as always we're there every step of the way, on the rugby union weekly, and a message from Simon to finish, he said, "Hi guys, just felt I wanted to get in touch to let you know how valued and important the pot is, there's so many fans out there in listener land." It's the first one I ever followed on YouTube, on iTunes many moons ago, it's 10 year birthday in January, and seeing a new pod drop always makes me happy knowing I'll be entertained for an hour of great analysis, friendly banter down to earth chat. The pod see me through the steepest nights of two young children, the dark years, COVID, a house fire, the aftermath, fallen through house sales, stressful times at work, equally joyful times of friends and family, whatever the weather I've come to depend on, the certainty that is the pod. I've just finished listening to you, Ashie Nugo, on my nightly dog walked after another 12 hour there as a teacher, and I was giggling like a little child and grinning from here to here, especially with Ashie's reference to Keats, he's on four mashy with his wine flies when you're having fun, he's come up with a couple of gems, he's on fire, a lovely message for you. Have you noticed his wiggand tones of slim down a little bit? Now he's on telly a lot. Yeah, he's gone a little bit. I bet you when he goes back home. He's a bit more harpendent. Well, you're a bit more cobbin then. No, I'm not, mate. No, you're still very leading. No, obviously, I'm sorry, resident, but I am leading to, you know, blood. You know, I just hear him, sometimes I hear from it, I'm like, who is this guy? I bet he gets free when he goes home. Yeah, he'd get beaten up if he went over. But it's a lovely message for Simon. Had a similar message, well, a similar interaction in person from Alex Northampton fan outside the garden, said similar about the pods. It's awesome to keep knowing that even as we near our ten-year birthday, people still enjoying. Everywhere I go, Jonesy. Everywhere I go. Everywhere I go. People say DC. We love the pods, mate. Absolutely. You love the pods. The best pod go in. You give us insight. You give us everything. You give us excellence. Excellence, each weekend is the comments I hear, our heroes. Good stuff, everybody. And we'll see you soon, guys. Cheers. Thanks for downloading Rugby Union Weekly. For more info, head to the BBC Sounds app. Part of why I blew the whistle was I didn't want to lay in bed in 20 years, having seen another million people die, and know that I could have done something when I had a chance. This week on The Interface, we're talking to Francis Howigan. The Facebook whistleblower who leaked the documents that changed how the world saw social media. And now she is the subject of Aaron Sorkin's latest movie, The Social Reckoning. So join me, Thomas Dermain, and me, Jess Maddox, for The Interface. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.