Camera Operator/Director BJ McDonnell

On today's episode we'll talk about the operator as a storyteller, remembering where you came from, the fall guy, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, and of course, making homemade squibs from rocket launchers as a teenager. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, theop.io is up in chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the answers, the images, and so much more. This episode is brought to you by the full x max. So you want to practice your handheld, steady cam, or even on the wheels, but you don't have a full-size camera to use. Well if you're not, the full x max is here. It allows you to attach your DSLR or other lightweight camera and distribute that weight in a multitude of ways. Now you can practice with a camera cage that feels the same as just about any size professional camera out there. For more information, check out fullxmax.com. And as an added bonus to listeners, mention this podcast and you'll receive $100 off on your order. That's FAUX-LEX-M-A-X. com. Finally, if you enjoy this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. You like it out? Nice and quiet. And let's roll. Good. Victor, 30 echo tick two. Never. You are. Camera set. Hello and welcome back to the op podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating in the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Kamitez, your host, and I'm coming to you over the internet today with a guest in California, Mr. B.J. McDonnell, who is a camera operator, steady camera operator, director. He has over 227 credits on his IMDb, which is just like wild. Some, but not all by any means of the things that he has done. Springsteen delivered me from Nomer. The naked gun, Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, the fall guy, American horror story, ballers. In 2008, he won a tele-award for a Lockheed Martin military commercial. And in 2013, a movie he directed, Hatchit 3, was nominated as best film in a jury prize for a festival that he can't recall which one it was from. So I think that's how much I pay attention. That's great. Hey, man. Cool. Thanks for being on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me, man. I'm actually, it's been a long time. We talked about doing this and now I'm really excited that we actually are doing it. So I think I contacted you like a year and a half ago or something like that, which shows you my life. And I was trying to think about it. Have you and I ever actually met you and I met and I want to say, and maybe this is wrong, but I swear to God, I think I met you and I was just getting into the study cam world on Fastlane, like this TV show where I was a grip. Did you come in day play on that? Flashland, dude. That was McGee's show. Yes. And I was actually, I was transitioning into being an operator, but I was, you know, when I got into this business, I started out as a grip. And I think that you and I actually talked, I mean, dude, it just shows like, you know, I hope no one goes to be and goes, when was Fastlane makes me and you look like the oldest turds on the planet. Hey, we already know. Everybody knows I am. That's funny. Oh, well, I'm sure. Well, look, chances are if you were getting into study cam and I was there, you probably came up and talked to me. So, um, yeah, I'll play it with an ass. But, um, no, you were super cool. I used to get on that. Yeah. That was exciting. I haven't thought about that show on a long time. Actually, I will tell you there was one thing about that show that I do remember. And I don't remember who the director was, but we were like, we were like out of Malibu Beach or one of those beaches where they always shot stuff. And there were these guys. Two guys having a conversation, sitting around a fire. And I was, I was, you know, a big camera study camera. Maybe I was just in for a day playing on her or what. And they didn't have any, you know, the, the, the camera was doing a shot and the director went, just do, do whatever you want. And I had, I had a longer lens on. So I just looked at the AC and I said, all right, so here's the deal. Like, I'm going to start on him and then we're going to kind of move the dolly and wrap around to him. But then we'll come back to this guy and like sort of made up a little thing. And I remember the director and it was, it worked. It wasn't perfect. I remember the director came up to me afterwards and went, um, that was really good. And, and I went, oh, okay, thanks. And he said, so the interesting thing is you were not always looking at the people who were talking. Some of the times you were looking at the other guy and I'm like, I didn't say it, but I'm thinking like, yeah, that, that's kind of storytelling. Because it's not about the, you know, and I was just like, well, I'm just going to, I'll do whatever I do. But I think that's a telltale thing. And like, no offense to TV directors, but TV some of the TV directors realize they feel like as you always have to be on the person who's talking. Which in my opinion, it's like it's sometimes is more interesting to see the other persons in your action while the person, you know, while the main actor's talking. And I think, and I love that kind of stuff. But, you know, it's a different, it's also one of those things. Like the story is not always about the person talking. Sometimes it's actually almost always, you know, completely not. But anyway, that's my memory of it. But well, that's cool. That's a blast from the past right there. So tell me, how'd you get into, how'd you get into the business and how'd you get to where you are? You know, I've always, weirdly, I mean, how far do you, how far do you want to go to, like, inspirations or like, what do you think? Like, go for inspirations. I'm always interested in that. Yeah. Long story short, my grandfather was an actor in Hollywood. So I, as a kid, I used to come out to, to LA and stay with my grandparents and he would take me to film sets and he was kind of like, starting to slow down when I was a young kid and all that. So that, and he bought me like a video camera back in the day, like me and my buddies growing up would make these stupid action films back in, I grew up in Florida. That's great. Yeah. So we would always make these action films or like these horror movies with video cameras. And he was basically the inspiration. And I got new punk bands. I wanted to be a punk rock bit like, I wanted that to be my career. And I did that for about, like, you know, seven to eight years. And we were doing great. But we were too young to actually, you know, treat it like a business. It's like when it became unfun, it wasn't, you know, we, the, the tell tale band thing. Oh, you know, so and so got pissed off in Texas and punched the other guitar player in the head. We all drove home like on tour. You know, it was those kind of things that happened. I'm, you know, I have so many stories about that. I could go on and hold podcasts. And you were a legitimate band. It sounds like, no, I was. Yeah. No, we were on a record label and we were touring. And we were, it was great. But, uh, you know, when it was called lick, it's a horrible name, but it was, uh, we did stuff on lookout records. We did stuff on off time records, one foot records, um, we toured around the US, a bunch, in Canada. It was great. But it was, you know, that was like right out of high school. And, and so when that ended, I decided, you know what? I love making movies. Um, let me go see if I can actually try to do this and actually make a career out of it. So I, my grandmother, uh, she lived out here. So I left Florida, came out here, went to Los Angeles City College, got a degree in cinema, which I don't even know where that is anymore. I couldn't tell you where my degree is. I have a college degree before it. Nobody asked me for that degree. But, uh, you know, I did that. And then I, my buddy Jason Smith, that I grew, weirdly enough, I grew up with, um, back in Florida, he married, um, a wardrobe girl and he became a grip and they moved to LA. And at the same time, he goes, well, let me get in the business and I ended up getting into business as a grip. And I gripped for a little while and then I fell in love with the study cam because weirdly enough, I was so obsessed with the movie aliens and Vaskets and that whole thing. I thought that was so rad. That's great. And seeing that, you know, uh, you know, not only just being a, uh, a young kid making movies and trying to tell stories, but also falling in love with the things of like, you know, Vaskets and, and, and, and, and, and her and like seeing that was like, I, wait a minute, I couldn't run around like Vaskets and aliens with this full rig on but make cool shots. And I just fell in love with the art of it. You know, I, I dolly gripped for a little while. I loved working with the operators. Um, and I just, that's, that was my path and I said, you know what? Like, I, I, as a grip, I was, I liked, I loved what I did as a grip and I taught me a lot of things, a lot of life lessons, a lot of like measuring and cutting and things that I didn't know growing up in Florida because I was like a complete BMX surf bump. Um, taught taught me all sorts of great stuff and, uh, you know, and then I just wanted, I just didn't feel like I was, when I'd see the things that I worked on, I was like, yeah, you know, I set some flags or I pushed the dolly and I boomed up and like, you know, I, I wanted to, I wanted to tell the story. I wanted to be the guy behind the camera. Um, and, and that's, that's how it became, you know, I, I went, took this, took the, you know, the Steadicam course before Tiff and even had owned, I think, or I think they just bought the, the Steadicam patent and, uh, Jeff Haley was one of my teachers. Uh, it was one of his first time teaching. Um, it was also Jerry Hallway, obviously. Um, uh, God, who else was, who else was there? Um, oh, man, um, I forgot there was a female lot, but she was great. And I can't remember who she was. I can't remember her name, but she was awesome. Uh, Lori Hable. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I believe that was, I believe that was who it was. Um, and yeah, I was a couple of other guys, but that, I mean, that was it. And like, you know, it was one of those things where you go to the course and you go, you put the rig on for the first time and you go, yeah, this looked awesome. But Jesus is things heavy. And I don't know if this was going to be, I don't know if this thing's going to be the right career path, but you know, it's one of those things even now. It's like, you know, when I'm off work for, you know, a little amount of time, it still feels like the same time when I go to like you put the rig on it, takes about a week to get your, your body back into it again, you know, and then you're fine for the rest of the shoot. But it's like, you know, you just takes time to acclimate. That's the story and short, uh, I, you know, and also I moved to L.A. to be a director. I'm, I additionally wanted to be a director because I'm making short films with my friends. And you know, that was my path until I got into the camera operating. and the world which took me off that path. And I just fell in love with operating and that just took me, you know, which I'm so happy. I still love it as a career. And I, you know, I love doing both now. So it's been a wonderful career and it's a fun, it's been a front trajectory. - Backing up because I just have to ask, what was your grandfather's name and like what kind of stuff was he in? - His name was Life Ericsson. He was on the waterfront. He had a TV show named High Chef Arrell. He was the main guy. He did like Abbot and Costello. He's Captain Kid. He was in the original Invaders from Mars. He, I mean, he did so much stuff. - Oh, that's cool. - So much stuff. And so it was fun like growing up as a kid. Like they'd have all these old, like, you know, when I come out to California to visit my grandparents, they'd have like all these people like that I had no idea who they were, but they were like all these weird, like famous people that, you know, as a kid, you're like, oh, that's your friends. You know, it was cool. - That's cool. - That's cool. - Yeah, that's the old Hollywood right there. That's for the name. - Straight up Old Hollywood. - To the point where I used to go to, what's the place in Hollywood, the stay-cals, the famous stay-cals, you know what I'm talking about. - Oh, Mousso and Frank. - Mousso and Frank's. - Yes. - To the point where even when I came back out here to go to school, my grandmother would, we would go to Mousso and Frank's long after my grandfather passed away. And the waiter that used to wait on my grandparents was still waiting tables at Mousso and Frank's, older than shit. I hope I can cut some of this. But, and my grandma's like, oh, this is so, it's always been here for so and so long time. I'm like, we do it. So I just love the fact that it would, like, you know, it still was kind of all intact when I came out to LA and my grandmother. - That's so great. - My grandmother, it's cool. So that was my grandfather. He was a huge inspiration for me as was my grandmother. - That's really, really cool. - Wow, wow, that's fantastic. So you mentioned that you pushed all in, you worked with camera operators. So was there, were there things that you can remember learning from those, watching those camera operators that impressed you on like, oh, this is what a camera operator does or this is what a camera operator doesn't do, actually when they fail? - Yeah, you know, to me that, like, some of the camera operators I worked with and I really liked a lot were the ones that had a lot of communication that would always talk about things and like, like, talk through the shots, talk to me about the shots, you know, really the guys that were so into the storytelling of it, not just the technical aspect, which I believe isn't, if you don't know how to tell a story as a camera operator, you know, that's a huge part of this whole thing. We're here to tell stories. We're not here to tell, you know, tilt up pan left and right. We're storytellers. We help create the vision and tell the story. So I really enjoyed the fact that I've been work with operators that were really kind of like story focus but also had the technical skills. I also learned, this is a funny one. I learned that the whole time I would do that, I would work with these great operators and there were some operators that were just complete dicks and I remember just being like, you know, the one thing I'm gonna make sure I'm hopefully never am in this business is a dick. And I wanna make sure everybody's happy working with me and, you know, like having a good time because I think that our business is so awesome that it's all about having a good time but also, you know, we're doing cool stuff so why make it miserable? You know, some of these guys are like, they're so like, you know, I'm this guy, I'm a camera operator. This is my life, you know, you know, you know, what do I say or people get mad when a DPR or a director doesn't like the shot they came up with. Well, Jesus Christ, you're a camera operator, you know what I mean? Like we're telling stories but hey, look, there are the ones that want you to do this and that. So it's like, we all have to work together and why you get so upset about those kind of things. - Totally agree. It's funny that you say that because Chris Chulac who is a sort of mentor of the two. - I know Chris Chulac. - Would you work with him on like Southland or something or would you work with him? - No, I went and day played on seal team when my buddy Eric Lee was shooting it. - Okay, and this is fantastic. - That's great. - And as a matter of fact, hopefully I'm interviewing him shortly where we've been trying to get together on it. But I remember him telling me early on, I don't know what we were talking about. It might have been just before I started directing but I remember him telling me, watch, watch who's I'm a director's, watch other directors and see when they fail. Because, and I was like really, and he goes, here's the thing, when people succeed, it's often like you don't really realize it until after the fact, or you know, I mean, it's not always apparent, but when they fail, you can see it and that's where you learn more than anything is watching people fail. And I was like, that's kind of brilliant. - Actually. - It was, man, it's funny you mentioned that because people always ask me that same question and I'll tell you like, you know, for those people that are listening to podcasts that want to, you know, I always tell people you don't have to always stay with the career you're in right there. It's like just because you're an operator, it doesn't mean you have to be an operator forever. Go off and do things that you dream of. They'll follow your dreams and that's why I direct when I can and operate when I can and I love doing both. But I will say that it's the best school you could ever have is just being on set and doing the job because you do see these directors that are fantastic and then you do see these directors that are not fantastic. And I think that that alone is such education to take with you when you know what worked and what didn't, who failed and why they failed. You know, absolutely. I think that's the best film school you could get. I mean, I wish I would have known that before I spent a lot of money at LACC going to film school. But, you know, there's a lot of great, a lot of people can find that. - Yeah, there's no question. So you took the class and then did you just go out and get alone and buy a rig? Like, what, how'd you get a rig? - So I took the class and what I did was, you know, I was broke as a joke, you know, and I was gripping and luckily, you know, we had the Steadicam forums, we had these places where we could buy used gear. You know, what was that Derek Whitehouse hope? Like he's gone now, but like he had all the Steadicam gear and things and so, you know, it's funny. I'm bringing up, I'm really aging myself, I think. - Oh, that was great. But remember, Derek Whitehouse had, I want to say like the second to last page of American cinematographer with that ad that was just like words and it was like, "Beele's Ray, feel the one, me." - He did, he did. It was just like, "Okay, I guess maybe I'll call this guy." That's great. But you know what, the way I did it was, I didn't, I couldn't just take the money out at that point in time and I talked to Charles Papper 'cause he was actually operating then. And you know, I said, "Hey, man, how the hell do I, you know, I can't just drop all this money on a rig." And he's just like, "Well, just buy it piece by piece." So for me, I was like, "Well, that's smart." So as I was gripping, I was buying, you know, I'd make some money, I'd buy the Pro 1 battery cage and with some batteries, then I'd be broke again and then I'd buy the center post and then I'd like, "Okay, I'm broke." And then I'd buy the gimbal, I'm broke again. And it took me a really, really long time to actually get my sled, but I didn't want to go the route where I had a loan looming over my head. I wanted to actually have something that if it sat in the corner, it wasn't killing me or driving me nuts. And yes, it's a long road to get to that point. But smart. I felt like I did it the right way where, you know, I just, if it wasn't working, it wasn't causing me an issue. It was just there and if I got the call, awesome. I mean, it took me a long time to get the sled built. But in the end, it was worth it to me, you know, and I came up from a Pro 1 sled with an EFP arm and, you know, like an old Model 3 vest. And then I would upgrade to the Silver Spring Arm when that thing was, when that was going on, the Australia Silver Spring Arm, which was great. And then finally I had enough money, you know, as working, I ended up getting a Pro Arm. I'll never forget going to George Patic in Pro when they were here in LA. And I remember bringing cash for that thing. (laughing) It was the most money I'd ever spent in one swoop. And I remember Ashley, I think it was Ashley, yeah, that was there. And I remember getting, holding cash and like we were there and she had the arm in the bag. And I'm like, I couldn't let go of that cash. I was, it was like 20 grand originally. It was like 24 because I got all the springs and everything. But it was like, okay, yeah. I looked at this stupid thing and this little bag sitting there next to me. And at this point in time, I think I drove like a Zuzu Veeacross piece of shit. But this arm was more expensive than the car I was driving. And I was so stressed out. And we just had this moment of like staring at each other while and she's like, okay, you can let go now. And I'm like, ah, you know, and I let go of the cash and I took the Pro arm and there you go. That's great. That's great. Actually, it's funny you say that about the car because now I think about it. It's like, yeah, you should drive around this crappy Subaru and the gear in the back was worth eight, nine times more than the car was. I never thought about that before. But 100%. We all did it. So that's the so now what at a curiosity around what year were you talking about? Did pepper give you that advice? You remember? I want to say that was the first season of scrubs, which was like 2002. Okay, so it's very likely that he was living downstairs for me at that time. I had a house in Silverlake and he used to rent the place underneath me. Yeah, yeah. I love Charles. So this day like I mean, he gave me such great advice. And to be honest, he was the one, he's who told me how to get the rig and how to do it. And I didn't even think about that because I was, you're starting out, you think you just have to go, I got to get the whole thing. No, you don't. And that was the beauty of pro at that time is you could buy it as pieces. It wasn't like, you know, just you had to buy the one big sled, like the master series that came out look like this crazy contraption. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But so did you, so what did you first start to start doing? Like student films, music videos, like, what was your start? So that goes back into being a grip again, which is a fun way. Because I had worked as a grip and I had met all these different DPs and they all knew me as a grip. Yes, I went to film schools and I said, "Hey, I wanted to actually mess up on student films, which I'm sorry if I mess anyone's student film up." So I did. That's the thing. I didn't come up from camera department. It came up from grip. So I had to get in there and just get my hands on the camera and then just get some footage and really kind of do it. And I'm as scared as hell when I did it. I'm not joking. I was nervous. But you know what that's what made me, I mean obviously there's the aspect of I'm not quite a steady camera operator, but it was just that you feel like an imposter in the camera world or like, I mean, what's what are you nervous about? I was definitely nervous because I didn't, you know, it's some guys come up from camera and they do the like second AC. First AC operator, I was a grip, a dolly grip. I didn't know what I was doing with the cameras. Like if you asked me to do like anything, I was like, "I have no idea. I just know how to put this camera on here, how to plug in these cables and how to compose and how to do shots and how to tell the stories." And that was my strong point with that. But anything else, you know, I was, you know, I was just jumping in there. I just jumped right in there and I was like, "Let's go." And that was for me learning on student films and messing up on student films and succeeding on student films was a great, great way to do it. And then when I felt really confident with myself, I called those DPs that I worked with as a grip. And I said, "Hey, look, if you don't have, if you're guy that you use isn't available and you have something, you know, look, I've been operating. I'll show you my crappy little student film reel and you, you know, if you want, you know, let's do this." And luckily, it actually worked out. And these, these guys would call me and I started doing that. And that's really how I feel like I kind of jumped from, you know, into my career really quick was that I had already had established DPs relationships. And that's what did it. That's, yeah, that's fantastic. And look, I guarantee you, a fair amount of that comes from your work ethic and also your personality because those people are like, "Yeah, he's a good guy to have around. He's not going to bullshit me." So he's got to know what he's doing. So, yeah, do you remember some of the earlier either failures or successes of when you went on with the rig of things that worked or didn't work? I think I fried a camera on a student film one time by not having the right polarity on a cable, like a film camera. That's just it. A student film too, that's too bad. Do it with the student film and I was like, "Oh, gee, what happened to the camera?" But like, I literally remember the camera smoking and I was like, "Oh, my God, I think it was me." And I'm pretty sure it was because I didn't have the right polarity on a certain cable or I don't know what happened. But I remember that was a rough one. I also remember the thing is too, when you start doing things, I started feeling like I could do it all. I was like, "Oh, I can do this, I can do that." And running backwards and doing that kind of stuff. And I'll never forget being so confident with this one student film. Running backwards and having this dolly grip, I said, "Hey, look, the dolly grip being a student who has never been dolly grip before." I'm going to be running backwards full speed and I saw all these potholes off to my left. I said, "Look, man, just hold on to my vest and just make sure I don't go left and keep me on this pothole." He's like, "Yeah, man, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it." Sure enough, man. I start running and I'm like, "Yeah, this is cool. I'm not thinking about it." I'm running, running, running. Next thing I feel my left foot drop into a hole and I just look straight back. It's like super hard. I remember the mag. I'll never forget, my shoulder took the brunt of it, ripped my shirt and my arms flesh totally torn off. And the back mag slammed the back of the asphalt and then that camera and the sled just came down on top of my chest like Thor's hammer. I remember it was so heavy, I could barely get up. Oh, God. Every ran over like, "Oh, dude, it was brutal." I will say to me, when I started feeling pretty confident about Citycam, it was kind of a nice ego burst. It's good to be humbled every now and then like that. That's the worst wreck I've ever had in my career, by the way. That's a pretty great one. It sounds like you got lucky because that could have gone much worse. I got really lucky. Yeah, it was painful and I still have a scar on my left shoulder from it. It was a humbling experience and I guess my failure with that one is the fact that like, look, I could have done it so many other ways. On a rickshaw or something, maybe students don't probably didn't have a rickshaw, but or in a dolly in a Garfield mountain. I had a Garfield mountain. We could probably have done it that way. But I was so like, man, I'm pretty awesome. I was like this. I had a mohawk in like, you know, a cheese ball. I had like black fingernails and like, I was like, you know, running around a converse, which nowadays I'm like, I'm like one step away from rock ports because I'm feeling so crippled. Times change. There you go. So, so I'm assuming you basically did mostly study cam for a while and then at some point you started getting called in for like B camera and study cam. Exactly. So, so not coming out of, you know, I mean, because that's a different skill set, right? I mean, some of it's the same obviously like framing and storytelling that holds, but then there's a different skill skill set. So I'm assuming that you obviously on a different level know how to work with the dolly grip. So that you've done that before. But like, what was that? What was that learning curve like? It was just one of those things where you got thrown into it and I basically just would like, you know, luckily I had been on films that's before. So I already knew, you know, like basically like the process and what we had to do. And I, I, I remember how other operators would kind of do their thing and I just was, you know, and then I, and being on a city camera just showing up the sets. And I would always just observe the other operators before I got into camera operating and watch what they were doing. I was really like, you know, so, so like hooked on watching what they do because I knew at some point I was going to get to that level. So basically, I mean, long story short, I got in there and I bullshit everything, you know, like straight up like, you know, okay, here we go, you know, like, I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to be like, yeah, well, I studied the lenses and the blah, blah, blah, blah. No, no, like fucking bullshit it. And like, like, I was like, yeah, yeah, love, give me this, you know, well, 50 mil sure let's put this on over here and, you know, like luckily I knew framing and we'd follow the actors and everything like that. But like, and I messed up. Sure, I mean, you get yelled at and, you know, it that's what it was. But at the same time, it just made me stronger. If you mess up, you never mess up again, you know, or you do, or you do a lot better with that stuff. That was it. And I remember learning the wheels, which is horrifying because I did this movie and the D and the D.P. said, well, you're using the wheels on this job. And that's what you're doing. I was like, okay. And literally it was trial by fire. I had to actually figure out the wheels like on this job. I'll never, I'll never, I'll never forget it's the dreaded standup scene from someone sitting at a table and or the shot. And when you're on the wheels and you never done that before, you look, oh, shit. And I'm sitting there while they're lighting just practicing and how many turns it's counting in my head, how many turns, how many times. And then when, when, when time came to actually do it, as soon as the guy stood up, I went the wrong way. Oh, I tilted down set up up. And I remember being like, they're like, what are you can hear that video village and I was like, oh, sorry guys. The gears were wrong and like, all right. Yeah, I posted it that one too. And then you know, eventually we got it, but like it was trial by fire. And it was, you know, and from now on, I, I am more of a wheels guy like I own my own area head, you know, too. And I will use the wheels way over I would an O'Connor head. That's, that's my preferred go to. And that was literally like it was trial by fire. But I also think that the, you know, when you learn the craft of of the wheels, it's, it just looks better. They look more cinematic and things are more precise. So I'm, you know, there you go. A lot of failures here. So did you have like a lot of people will have that like show, like usually a TV show that they got on, which is just like the same crew and a same number of episodes. And it's just like that. Like, did you have some experience that after it, you were like, I can, I can go on to a set and do whatever they need. Like was there was there a show that did that for you or was it a process over time. I think it was more of like over time it was, it was when is when Los Angeles really had a lot of indie films going on. And I ended up really doing a ton of like these independent movies, which is a shame that like, and maybe I'm just out of the loop, but I miss the days where these like these indie films are happening all over Los Angeles. And like you would like it really was a great gateway for people to get to where they want to be in this business. And I feel like they don't do those kind of things anymore. And I don't know if you just, you know, every now and then you'll see an indie film, but like not like what we had like in the late 90s, early 2000s, like those were like all like the million dollar movies. You don't see that anymore in Los Angeles. And so I think that like a lot of the stuff that I started on was those kind of things and I got very confident with that. And then when I, and then to the point where I started doing like things that were like on TV or doing a movie that actually went to the movie theater. I had already got to the point where I felt pretty confident in getting in there and like I would be okay. And I'll be honest to this day to this day over all this years. And I'm sure you have the same feeling. I still fuck up like we all do. I'm not, I'm not king. I'm not king badass at all. And like we all mess up. But all you do is like, you know, I don't worry about as much anymore unless it's like a real critical shot that like you get one at it. But other than that's like, okay, you know, you're getting get to go again. We're not doing stage performance theater here. It's like where you have to get it on each take. You know, we all still mess up to this day. day. And you know, as long as you realize you're going to mess up and it's going to be, you know, as long as you don't mess up on certain things like a stunt or whatever, you know, that you only get the one take at. Then, you know, people have to realize it's just going to be fine. Yeah. Well, I think that it's interesting that you bring that up because I've talked with people about this before. I think that that one of the major shifts, I mean, obviously we're talking about being an operator, but probably being a director and being an actor and being whatever is when you realize finally like, oh, everybody screws up. Oh, I'm going to screw up. And in a weird way, once you once you realize that you're going to screw up and you're going to survive it, it gives you, I think it gives you the ability to actually do better work because you're willing to like push it a little closer to that point where you might screw up. And actually, that a lot of times that's where the cool stuff happens. A friend of mine I was talking with about this an actor was saying, he said, well, it's just something with acting because it's like the great performances are right up to the point of being ridiculous, but they pull back and he said, and in his theory, and I think he's right, he said, that's why there's so many great actors who sometimes you'll see the performance and you go, that was terrible. And it's like, yeah, because that one they pushed it too far, but you know, they were playing in this. I think there's something to that is that when you accept that, you actually almost have the ability to do better work. I think it also is like, even with that, it's the fact that your nerves aren't as you're not tripping out as much as it is. When you finally become confident on a film set and you're confident in the work that you're going to do, but you know that you're going to mess up, I feel like it's just as when you go to set, you're just like, okay, you know, it becomes a day at work, like any other job you get to, and you're not like, I remember having the jitters for the longest time of like, just, oh god, I just hope I get through this job, you know, like I hope I hope everything's going to be okay. And you know, when you finally get to the place where you're confident and you're not stressed out about things and exactly like that, where you, you're, you're, you're, you know, you're going to mess up, you know, you're going to succeed, and it's just everybody's going to have that moment. I think it just makes a better situation in your better operator. How many years you've been operating now? Oh man, at least 21, 22 years, but like, I've been in the business for 25. Yeah, yeah, 25 years. Yeah. You still, you get nervous when you start a job? Yeah, I don't sleep in like, I do actually weirdly enough, it's like, I'll have to take like Z-quill or something the night before just to make sure I get some sleep. What is, is it different? Is it, obviously originally it was like, I hope I remembered all my gear and I hope I don't, like make a fool out of myself and whatever, has, has it morphed into a different type of nervousness? It's just one of those things where I always feel like it's like, you know, okay, I hope this director's cool. I hope that we're all going to get along. I hope the DPs great. You know, there's some guys that like you work with and you know, like what you're getting into. So, you know, some, there's guys that I work with that's like, you got to prepare for battle. You know, you're going into this thing. You know that it's going to, you know, you kind of got to, you know, pump yourself up like you're about to go into wars with certain things. And you, I think it's like that, you just don't want to mess up and you just want to do a good job and make sure that you're doing the right thing. And usually like after day one, it's like, okay, I'm fine. You know, everything's going to be okay, you know. So, yeah, I mean, but I still think that the, for me, it's, I don't, I don't find myself as being like this, you know, I don't come in being a hero or anything like that. I'm just coming in to do a cool job and do my job well and do it the best I can, you know, and I just, I think it's just in me. It's just me personally that like I will still get nervous on day one, you know, or the night before. I tell you, having done, I don't know, 140 of these now, I'll tell you it's not just you. It's all of us. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think anybody that's like just says, oh, I'm fine. Like, you okay, sure. You know, either you're bullshit, you're, you're bullshiting us or whatever or you're, or you have too much of an ego to get through it. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. So, so what did you make? How long to take you to the point where you were, you were doing a camera study cam on, on shows? Man, I don't know. Like, I, probably, geez, I mean, I was B camera for a while. And then it just, I, I can't remember when I, my first A camera job, I couldn't even tell you. Okay. Going back that far. Like, I, it's, it was a long time ago. I did a lot of B camera study first and, and did it that way. But there was also, again, going back to the indie films, we don't have one camera. And if I was a camera, I was a camera. You know what I mean? So there you get, you kind of get that credit right there. And you're like, oh, cool. I'm a camera. All right. And everyone's like, oh, he's an A camera guy. Yeah, sure. I'm all right. I think that was kind of like, like where it kind of all, you know, people started doing that. But also is all about personality. And, you know, I would meet people on, on TV shows and they would boost me up later on in the next season or whatever. And, and, and, you know, and movies, it just, it just happened. And it's, I think it's, I think it's just all about personality and, and people like working with you. I think that's a lot of this business. I think it's a lot of this business as personality. And that's, I would tell, I would tell that, you know, anybody get into it. And like, don't be a dick. Have a good personality. Work well with others. That's going to go a lot farther than just I'm so technical. I know this and that. I think that's a huge, huge asset to have when you go on a set. I'll tell you on that note that, um, uh, I was, I mean, I don't usually watch these things. I think I was on a plane or something like that. And, and, uh, think for the fall guy came up and the two stars who were, who was it Ryan Gosling and who was in the fall guy in LeBlanc and in LeBlanc, they were talking about something or other. And at one point, he just went and our camera operator, BJ did, like, he named you by name, and she was like, Oh my god, he's the best. And he would get up and running on the sand and this and that. But it was like, it was literally, I think I was on a plane, actually, because I remember looking around and being like, come on, everybody, everybody listen to this. Like how cool is this? These people are like, you know, because those things are, are fairly programmed and they've got their points to hit. And I'm sure you weren't one of them. Um, but they were sincerely like, he was fantastic and it was, it was such a cool shout out. It was great. Yeah. I didn't, everybody started texting me being like, did you see this? I'm like, no, I, I'm so oblivious to anything. That's fantastic. To be honest, when I'm off work, I'm all I'm thinking about is like snowboarding or surfing or or mountain biking or going camping. And like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm out with my wife. Probably, you know, and it's like, it's like, where, where, where is me and my wife's next adventure going to be? Oh, oh, so, oh, look at this, honey. And like, the people started sending me that. And I was like, oh, that's really, I mean, to be honest, like you never, you, it's, it's rare to see like actors give a full shout out to an operator at things like that. It's very, like people get it. But it's like, I thought that was really like really nice of them to like, you know, hold that out of the hat. And, you know, because we got worked pretty hard on fall guy. It was, that was nice. That's, seems like a really hard movie to do. That was, that, I love that we did it practically. I love that most everything in that, like all the stunts were like practical and you and every that we were there doing that stuff. And yeah, the beach, there was these beach scene that like, there's this one, like, steady cam shot when she's trying to explain these shots and we're moving all over the place. And these people come up and explosions are happening behind him and helicopters are flying by. And it was all timing in that stuff. And that's, you know, that's stressful to make sure that I'm not the guy that messes up. The actors get their performance and all these things going on around you that if you don't hit your mark or you don't do the right timing, it's not going to work out. You're going to have to reset and do it. And it was a pretty long take on beach sand. And, you know, that was just one of them. We did another one that was like eight minutes long. And I was died. And we did it golden hour. And it's the very beginning where Ryan Gosling gets, he gets his face scan. He talks to this girl, the machine. And then he goes out a trailer and we follow behind him and he goes out. He needs the stunt coordinator. Well, that scene cuts all of a sudden they're in a they're all a sudden in a doom bug and he's going a bear, you know, a roll, whatever. But that scene went on for like eight minutes and that was it. It was so brutal. And, you know, it was painful. And, uh, yeah, that, you know, that's what that happens a lot. You tried to do your best and things get cut. I did another thing on this, this TV show called the offer in South Latino called me in and there was this crane step off the opening shot of this TV show, the offer and we came down. We went to this parade. We find you find he were busy. We kind of cruise through it's all these people. And then you go into this restaurant and we end up sitting down and I turned on the I turned it on. I got to see if that how that shot came out. And I turn on the thing and it shows the crane going down and it cuts the inside the restaurant. Oh, it's definitely not gonna be kidding me. That's the worst. Well, actually, I don't know about you, but what's even worse for me and these don't sound like those situations is when you're doing a massive shot and you know that they're gonna cut in the middle of it, they may even use the second half of it, but you know, they're gonna cut and you go, can't we just do these just two pieces? It'll be, but no, no, we want it all as one. And then it goes exactly the way that you thought it would. I'm 100% and that's kind of how that fall guy shot came out. I had a feeling I was like, I, you know, in my head, I was thinking like, I don't know, man, like the shot wasn't so engaging that it's gonna keep the audience like really glued to their seats and they just kind of the, like, Ryan and the other guy were just kind of rambling on about things and they were telling a story and it just went on and on and I kept thinking of myself like, they're never gonna use this whole thing. Like they're never gonna use this whole thing. And sure enough, they didn't. And well, and it's it's funny that you mentioned that that other Randy shot on the sand because I do remember watching that and all I couldn't even, I couldn't even listen to what they were saying because all I was thinking was that poor steady camera is walking out and unstance and it's just it had I mean, like my legs were cramping up watching it. It's just that's the hardest thing in the world to do. It's horrible. The funny thing is, is that shot, I'll never forget. Like we did it a few times and I was starting to get pretty gassed out on it and I remember going up to Ryan Gosling and going, look, because originally I would go and I would push as the Dunebuggers come in, I'd push up to a tight two shot of him in Winston before he, and then he gets out. And I told Ryan it's like, man, I'm getting pretty beat, dude. And like, this is like, I forgot how many takes you this. Maybe you just take five on this or whatever. But like, you know, beach sand was killing it. I don't know, we did a lot. And it was always a big reset, you know, which luckily gave me a break, but you know, big reset by told Ryan, say, hey, look, at the end of this take, if I don't come to you, if you don't see me pushing into you, come to me. (laughing) And he's like, and Ryan's such a bro, he's such a rad. And he was like, yeah, man, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure enough, shot happens and Ryan comes right up to me. (laughing) 'Cause it was the worst taking care of him. I love it like, like I have every intention of pushing into you, but my body may not do it. So you come to me. And the fact that he totally got it too. Oh, that's great. That's wonderful. Yeah, I've heard nothing but wonderful things about him, but that's really good to hear. He rules. He's awesome. Yeah, he's great. That's a lot of fun. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, you get to work with Desweeling. Yeah, that was cool. And to go to that point, I only did the American portion of it 'cause they shot most of that in London. But I got called in to go in and do all the stuff they shot in Vermont in Boston. And, and, and, and, and, and, you know, B.J. McDonald, Beetlejuice, and one fan was like, you know, it's funny 'cause there's certain movies you're like, you know, you just go do it, do it, do it. And then there's movies that mean a lot to you. And I got that call just for that bit of the American part of Beetlejuice. I was so pumped about that because one, Tim Burton is a huge inspiration for me, director wise and visionary wise. I love every, like I have, I have some of his art in my house, which I bought. I love that guy. And he's awesome, by the way. If anyone is out there's wondering how he is a person, he's awesome. But yeah, we got to do that stuff and I worked with Dez and, and, you know, I just, I was just so stoked to be a part of that. And it was funny because General R. Tigg is in that movie and I directed her in, in Studio 666. So, and, and it was great 'cause like, I, I showed up there and I'm like, I'm in Vermont in the actual town where they shot the original Beetlejuice at. And she came, she comes riding up on a bicycle and she like, doesn't double take, she goes, no way! She like, drops the bike, came over, give me a big hug. - Right, she's, she's fantastic. So, yeah. - Well, I was interviewing Dez in London and he was telling me about Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. He said, yeah, we had this great operator, BJ. And I was, I was like, oh man, why can't I get to work with Dez Whalen? And he's, he's just, he is one of the best operators in the world. That guy is so great and so giving. - He was great. - Was, was, was, was Tim Burton, I mean, was he the kind of guy that you could sit down and talk to him about his movies and directing and whatnot and pick his brain from your point of view? - I'm never that guy that ever approaches unless they approach me. I won't do that stuff because I just feel like it's, you know, if the timing was right and we were at a restaurant somewhere having a dinner for some reason, I would talk about it but like I'm more of like, if I'm getting hired to do a job, I'm there to do the job. And I'll talk to him if they, if, if, if, if the opportunity presents itself, sure. But I just, I just step back and watch Tim do his thing and, and I just, it's again, going back to the thing where you go, you learn things from directors and that are good and you can learn from the bad. And I was so impressed just watching Tim and watching his process and just, I would, I would see kind of his tics when he would do things and it was, it was, it was really great to watch. And he would, you know, when you're sitting there and you do a shot and then he calls cut and he looks over at you and he, and he looks at you and he's like, give the thumbs up like, yeah, was that good? And you go, yeah. And you're like, and he's like, all right, let's go. He was like that and it was so cool. Like Tim Burton just gave me a thumbs up, you know? And at the end of the shoot, you know, he gave me a big hug and I was like, ah, dude, I just hug Tim Burton. How cool is that? Like one of my, one of my heroes, you know, so, - That's fantastic. - Well, it's also that part of it. And I've been there before where you're like, after that happens, you're like, Tim Burton just asked me if the shot was okay. Like why is Tim Burton asking me things? - Yeah, totally. - That's great. - It was cool because, you know, in the town that they shot people just in, they rebuilt the house on the hill. That house wasn't originally there. They rebuilt that thing and it was massive. And then they, yeah, yeah, it does probably went all into that and they just, you know, they fixed up the town, they redid the bridge. It was just kind of a neat thing as the young kid and me that loved Beatles juice being actually in that town and seeing all this right in front of me and just being like, man, I'm so lucky to have this opportunity, you know? And I just, it's one of those things where in so many jobs, you just take with you how lucky and grateful you are to have these moments. And I think we're all very lucky when we get those moments. - There's no question about it. And I'll say on the flip side, there are sometimes when I've been on jobs that either are just tough for whatever reason they are. I mean, all jobs are tough, I think. But some of them are just like pure joy and some of them are a little bit of a grind as we've all had. I try to sort of go, I try to step out of myself and go, dude, you would have killed to be here when you were a kid. Like you're here. Like you made this show, you know? And then it's like, okay, so it's, like I gotta look at this a little differently. I don't know if you ever have those, you gotta reset yourself sometimes, right? And I feel like, yeah, I agree with that. I feel like if there's a moment, you know, and it is that, it is, it's this is our moment where you're just getting kind of cranky about things. And I usually try to keep my, I try to keep my experience or what's going on with me if I'm frustrated internally. I try not to let it show on set. Never let them see you sweat as they say or get angry. But it is, it's like you have to turn around and go, you know what, man, like, you know, be Jim McDonald, the Dolly Group, you're here now. Like there you are. How cool is this? Like man, so just suck it up and enjoy the fact that you're here and they, and they chose you to be here. And there's a reason why you're here. So you always have to kind of reset. I agree. That's fantastic. How was Springstay Deliver from nowhere? This is a funny one. Honestly, like, Imasa, the DP who's fantastic, you know, he, I love his work. He, I mean, he operates almost everything. I was there as the Steadicam and A operator, but like, I really was more of like the B guy and I did get in there a lot, but Masa really was, you know, he, he hand holds thing. He's really in control of that, you know, I got the A-cam regret it, but like that was basically through my deal memo, I think. But Masa was more the operator on that than I was. I'll tell you straight up. Like some people would even say that, but like, you know, Masa did a great job. I did a lot of operating on it and I did the Steadicam on it. And, you know, was, there was days though, like when they were in a small room where I would sit on the truck and like, you know, I would write, I would, and I would take that time to go write things for directing or try to get a pitch going. But, you know, it was a great experience and I loved watching Masa work, but he's got his own thing where he does that mostly. He's mostly the operator. - Did you guys do big concert stuff there or was a lot of that like AI and not AI, but, you know, - No. - No, we did, we did that stuff. The end of the movie, like the last week of shooting, like we actually shot the Stone Pony where he used to go and play while we were actually there. - Whether that was grill or not. - That's true. - That was real. - Yeah, we were at Stone Pony and it was really neat and we shot right there. We were there for like two weeks. And yeah, we would, you know, all his stuff. I would, the only thing, the big, big concert that they do at the end, I wasn't there for it 'cause that's when my house burned down. - Oh, I would just be in the fire. That's right, your house burned down, if you're, oh wait, and am I, am I wrong or do I remember that this was your grandfather's house too? That he had like built or something like that? - It was my grand, it was my generational home and I ended up buying it out of the family trust when my grandmother passed away and I bought it out right from my sister and my mom. And, you know, it was just, it's been my home as a young kid. You know, that's where I would come to go visit my grandparents before I would come out to, - Oh, sure. - So it was very, yeah, no, I mean, look, I don't want to get into it. We don't have to get into all that, but it was, it was a tough thing to see and tough thing to do, and I'm still dealing with it, trying to get the thing rebuilt. But it's a mess. - Oh, man. - So yeah, I left about a week early because as we were sitting there at the crane and my wife was telling me how bad the fire was, I was like, oh my God, it's getting real, it's getting real. And I remember, I remember looking on my security cameras and as soon as it, and I remember, the director was right behind me and as soon as my camera came on, my cars were on fire. All my cars were on fire. And I stood up, I stood up from the controls, I was like on this craneshot, and I remember almost being very weak at the knees and just being like, I gotta get out of here. I gotta go home. And Disney and the director and Moss and everybody, we gotta get you out of here. And I flew out that morning and that was that. - Most importantly, everybody was okay. Nobody was hurt. - No, nobody was hurt. My wife got her daughter, her daughter's boyfriend out and our animals, and that was it. She got some paintings out that meant a lot to us, some the Tim Burton stuff, some Clydeburger paintings. I had two HR, like real HR, our art that we got out. Just got, I'm a big art guy. So I, and these are all movie people that I love their art. So over the years, I collected it. She got that out, thank God. But we lost absolutely everything else. She didn't even get her clothes out. - Wow. If you don't mind me asking you, 'cause you don't meet that many people who experience something like this, I can completely understand obviously how negative that is. Are there things that you bring out of it that end up being positives almost that change the way that you view things? Or like, I mean, is that a weird question? - Ask, I don't know. - No, no, I mean, look, it's, we're in it right now still. We don't even have a building permit. That's the hardest thing is that we're trying to still get that and it's been over a year. What I got really a lot of it out of it was how dedicated my wife was to getting the things that were meaningful out of the house and trying to save what she could as fast as she could because that fire moved quick. I know how dedicated a partner she is and how strong she is going forward and trying to get things going because now I'm the one that has to go to work and she's dealing with the terrible shit. Well, I'm over here making movies and working on a film set and having a good time. She's over here like having a migraine, dealing with county and architects and that whole thing. So I think I learned that and it really brings back, it's also like, you know, whatever you have can be gone in a flash too. Like that's, you know, so we're so minimalistic, but that's, you know, that's it's a crazy thing when you go through that's hard to explain. And a lot of us went through it. A lot of people I know like lost their stuff, you know, track track line Smith lost his house to. Yeah. I was actually free lost his house. Yeah. I actually went through train. I did wedding crashes together and it's nothing, but I went through and pulled all my pictures from wedding crashes and sent them to him because I think he lost all his hard drives and everything and whatever. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of, it's, it boggles the mind. Well, I don't want to dwell on that too much, but I'm glad you guys are okay and I'm glad you're rebuilding and, and yeah, I'm sorry. Your wife has to deal with the city. She's, she's, I think the city's afraid of my wife now because when she comes knocking, it's like, oh, because she's on top of it. That's great. So tell me, but tell me about directing. Where you, so you've talked all about operating obviously, were you kind of like directing little things here and there through the whole time and trying to, you know, continue that dream or did that just sort of go away and then come back? That's exactly what happened, you know, like I always wanted to direct and I would, like I said before, like when I was in Florida, I was me and my buddies were just making movies are fun and I'd write these stupid things and we'd make these dumb films with what we had and, you know, we were making our own squibs, which is so dangerous. Like, we would take the, oh, dude, like, it was, because I was so obsessed with like special effects and like guns and stuff. So we would, we would go to like these flea markets and buy like these crappy like Kevlar, like Vess that like in Florida, you can get that stuff in Florida and get whatever. But then we'd drive over to Alabama and get firecrackers and I watched like a Tom Savini thing and like how he would do squibs and I, oh my God, I came up with this idea of like, like basically getting rocket igniters, like, you know, those model rockets and we would basically, yeah, we would, we would tape these things on the Kevlar Vess with a condom full of fake blood and we'd run a wire and we had these rocket igniters and we would do the shot of like the guy's chest exploding. But it was always really funny because like, you know, we put the cables in and we cut the fuses out, we put the cables in just so hopefully ignite as fast as it couldn't blow up. Yeah, but every time it was funny because you'd always see a puff of smoke and then it would blow up. And that would blow up. Anyways. That's great. Yeah, it was so ridiculous. But we, you know, it was all about that. But yes, when I moved to LA, you know, film school, I was like, I'm going to be a director, director, director. And then when I got on set, I became a grip and I was like, I learned that and I really kind of focused on that because I really wanted to make sure I knew what was going on. And then I still was, you know, trying to direct, but the same, and then I got in the camera. And, um, and when I got, and then when I got in the camera, that really took me, like, my focus really became about camera and like trying to be the best I could be at it and try to get in there as, you know, and make this a career choice. And it turned out wonderful for me. And when I got to a point where I could actually start focusing on directing again, I did that. And, you know, that's a hard, directing is a hard gig. It's hard to get those things. Um, you know, it's a, it's years and processes. So it's, you know, it, yes, my focus was shifted, but then I'm kind of back at it. And so like, now I just work on projects and I pitch and hopefully something goes if it does great, if it doesn't find, you know, I'm not freaking out about it. It's like, you know, tell me about the food. That's what it is. How did that come about and what was that like? So that was, that was all came about, um, with my buddy Jim Rota and John Ramsey, um, and Brandon Trost, um, who's a DP of friend of mine, who also directs. Um, and Brandon was going to do that one. He couldn't do it. Jim Rota and him talk to Dave. I believe that I had directed and wrote some slayer music videos. Um, and I believe like, like Jim's like, oh, here, you know, talk to BJ. He's done these slayer things are crazy for what they did and, and, uh, then, then, uh, Dave was like, okay, let's, let's chat with him. Send him the concept of what I want to do and let's, let's talk to him. Let's talk about like what he would do. Like who his influences are blah, blah. So they sent me his idea. And I was so excited about it. So I just sat down and I, I, you know, I had like a meeting like two days. I just made like a real shitty look book or like an idea book of like what I wanted to do. And I ended up going in and having kind of a sit down with Dave and, you know, I showed him what I thought would be cool. And I talked about my inspirations of John Carpenter and people like that and horror films. And we just really vibed and he liked like the slayer videos and, and, and the things we've done and, and Jim and, uh, Jim Rota and John Ramsey, the producers were like, yeah, do this, you know, BJ is a good buddy and, and, and, you know, I think he'll do good. And, of course, really how it kind of came up and kind of came down to it. And it was awesome. And we had the best time. We just made a super long silly food fighters music video movie. And that's really what it is. It's like it's so campy and silly. And it's exactly what we set out to do. So it was fun. It has a, um, it has a, uh, uh, what do you call it? Um, um, a Scooby Doo feel to it almost, uh, like 100% tone, which is that was intentional. I'm assuming. It's intentional. We actually, we actually, we, it's funny. He said Scooby Doo because we started calling it Scooby Foo. That's great. How were they? Cause they ever like acted like that before? No, they've always done their music videos. So they always, you know, they know the, like, camera stuff, but it was funny because you could tell it like in the first week, they were a bit nervous. Dave is like a natural in front of camera. He's fantastic and he's easy going. Uh, the guys that could tell are a little bit nervous, but we just, my whole thing was like, I remember telling him say, hey guys, look. I don't even get nervous about this because you guys aren't playing like a written character. You guys are playing yourselves. So, yeah, be yourself. Be yourself. Be yourself. And, you know, here's, yes, here's our script. We have it right here. But honestly, I said, we'll do the words and we'll get it through and everything I said, but honestly, if it's something you guys would actually say, which others say it, just do it. And if you guys riff, great, cause we have two cameras and we'll get all that, we'll get the footage and, you know, if it goes off rails and we love what you're doing, we'll just, we'll keep, we'll keep flowing with it. And, and I think a lot of our better stuff came out of the fact that they, when they got comfortable and they started having their band banter, which is always funny, being, from being in a band and being around band people, you know, it, that stuff came out better than what was on the script. So, it was just a lot of fun and it became a real collaborative thing. I was really happy because the crew was having such a great time and that's very important to me that everybody had, like the crew was having fun. Everybody's laughing. Nobody's pissed off. It's like, you know, everybody's like, I'm all for like, somebody says, do it, be easy. What if they do this? I'm like, that's a great idea. Let's try that. You know, like I'm all, it's all about collaboration and it was great. You know, we just, we had the best time. Other than the fact that we got shut down with COVID and have it shut down for six weeks and then come back and finish it. Oh my God. That's, well, that is what it is. But, um, where you, when you're directing, are you able to like not watch the camera operating? Can you forget about it? Or are you still drawn, like drawn to it? I have to walk away from the camera operating. I don't, I, like, I won't do it. I, if there's something that's specific that I want to do, I'll basically be like, hey, look, this is what I want to end up doing. And there's a few, there's a few times when things I've directed, right, jumped on and said, you know, just when things weren't working out right, I'm like, I'll do this. But for the most part, I want everybody on set to, to do what they're there to do. And I trust, you know, the people that are there, I want them to do the job. And I want, and honestly, the hardest, it is hard because I would, if I'm on the camera, I quit watching performance, I start watching framing. And I feel like I would step away and just let the guys do their thing, be confident who you hire and watch the performance, watch the acting and quit, you know, it's hard to step away from the framing aspect to the performance aspect. Yeah, that's why I ask. But, but, so basically when you're not on the camera, you can, you can turn that out a little bit and just watch the performance. Yeah, for the most part, and that's the thing. It's like, that also boils down to trust the people you hire. You know, my whole thing is if you surround yourself with the best possible people you can, it's less of a stressful situation than, you know, being like, well, who's this guy? You know, and then you go and then you're like, oh, shit, like this, this, oh, no, oh, no, you know, like, trust is everything. There's no question about it. Yeah. Trust is everything and making sure that, you know, I think that the better directors and people or even camera, whatever, just surround yourself with the best people you can because you're going to get a better product regardless. And everyone's there to do, you know, hard work and trust what they're going to do. That's, that just makes everything better. Then, then makes my job easier because I can focus on what the actors are doing and, and, and I, I, I, a big believer in that. What's, what's been your biggest learning, learning curve as a director? Biggest learning curve as a director. I mean, honestly going back to like, focusing on performance and not the framing, like, honestly, that, that was, coming from Cameroon, that is probably one of the hardest things that I had to, had to learn was like, - Yeah. - You know, the actors need my attention. The actors have questions. I need it instead of being like, oh man, like watch out the edges and this kind of shit in headroom. Like, no, no, like, if it's noose of all, say something about it, but at the same time, it's a, I think it is, the hardest thing was actually, you know, learning how to just make sure that I'm working with the actors and the performance, as well as still talking about what I wanna do shop-wise, you know, that's a big important part of directing as well. You know, you don't want it to become just this cookie cutter piece of shit. You wanna like, you know, have creativity to the whole situation too, but that also goes with having the right director of photography on board and making sure that they are there to deliver that. - Sure, sure. Going back to camera operating, if someone came to you who had no idea about the film industry, no idea about your job, nobody did what, whatever, and you had to explain to them the job of the camera operator. What would you tell them? Explain the job as the camera operator, and not know it. So, that's a tough one because I always say, like, you gotta know the politics of the set. You gotta know, you know, that I think that knowing politics on a set is probably the most important lesson that you could start off with as like really. - What do you mean specifically by, but explain that? - I think it's one of those things where you have to know, and every set's different. So, how's this director gonna work? When I go into a set, I try to see how the DP works, and I wanna mold myself into doing what he wants, how this director works. And then when I see their ticks and what works and what doesn't, I try to get myself to a place where I know I'm gonna work well with them, and I see what they respond positive to and negative to. Also being able to delegate around the grips and the electrics and everybody around, 'cause they're all gonna come to you with questions. 'Cause you're usually the one guy that's right there on set. All, you know, I'm sure everybody talks about this, but everyone usually comes up to me, and like, what, BG, what's this? Or, where's, you know, what do you see over here, whatever? And you gotta really have an answer for all that while you're trying to work out these shots, and trying to make sure you're giving the director what he wants and knowing how he works and knowing how the DP works. 'Cause, you know, some DP's, they just wanna light, and they want you to work on the shot, and they set it up. Some DP's want to actually set the whole shot, and if you don't hit that mark from A to B, and it's not exactly what you did, you're gonna get an earful. So, it really is one of the things where politics on set, I think is a huge thing you need to learn. And that's where it goes back, and to me, starting off as a grip, I think that was a, instead of me jumping into, like, just all of a sudden, be a camera guy, I took my time and learned and failed, and succeeded as a grip, and I really got to know my way around set, and know what department does what, and what, you know, when to step in, when to step back. And I think that's the biggest lesson you can learn, is just really knowing how to kind of run a set, knowing really like how to delegate things, and because you're there as a ringleader a lot. - So I think that's very important. - That's fantastic advice and a great answer to the question. Are there, is there a genre that you haven't done yet that you wanna do as a director, or as a camera operator? - Oh man, I would love to do a Western. - Yeah, I did this one really horrible one called Jonah Hex, that I did it, we did, we, they did this movie, Jonah Hex, it is a really bad Western, but they shot this thing in New Orleans, it's Western in New Orleans, and I guess it was so gnarly and not like, they didn't wanna release in theaters, that we ended up shooting 75% of this movie over with in 11 days. - Oh. (laughing) - Wait, they shot a Western in New Orleans. There aren't big vistas in New Orleans that I know of anyway. - Dude, they built a town that burned down, there's like these sand dunes they shoot at. That's when New Orleans was like kind of a hot thing, like I actually did a movie called Battle Los Angeles and we shot Shreveport in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And that's when all this was going down these tax incentives. But going back to that, I mean, a Western, I would love to do a really good Western. That would be really cool. Actually, you know, it would be even more fun to be like a horror Western, something like that would be pretty cool. Like, I don't know, action Western. I just would love to do something that's more like a cowboy movie 'cause I feel like I've done the sci-fi, I've done the horror, I've done, you know, the comedies and the dramas. I would love to get out there and just really do something that's pretty awesome and meaningful. Like, I love Westerns. I love Young Guns 1 and 2. I think Young Guns 2 is like one of the most fantastic movies ever in Amelia S.A. is playing. I wanna do Young Guns 3 'cause I hear they're doing it. I would kill to be on that. - Well, it's out there now. Hopefully it'll happen. One of the things that you've taught, you've sort of, you know, it seems like you've touched on a couple of times here is your relationship with actors. And can you just talk about that relationship with actors? Like, how do you go into a set where you don't know the actors and, you know, how do you sort of figure out what they need and what you should be? 'Cause I think there's something, you know, you were saying every set you're adapting to the director and the DP. But I think you're also adapting the actors to it, right? - 100% - Huge part of our job. You just talked about that a little bit in your experiences? - Well, now it's like, if I have enough time and I, like before a job and I know who the actors are gonna be and I know somebody that's worked with an actor, I'll sometimes ask, hey, how's this person? Like, what do you think? I'll give somebody a call and get advice on them and just see like what their ticks are, if they're cool, if they're not cool. You know, when you go on set, sometimes you just, you don't have any information and usually week one or even the day one, you kind of will see like, you'll know if they're approachable or if they kind of are standoffish or they just, you know, not being, like some people, some actresses don't even chat, you know what I mean? And you just kind of just go, okay. And you just step back and let them do their thing. And you know, some actress won't even hit their marks. And you can't, I'll never forget doing a movie where the director wouldn't let me talk to the actors. And if they didn't hit their marks, I couldn't say anything. Or I couldn't tell them, hey, can you lean a little on your left and hit the marks? I'm shooting and like just over here, like, you know, you're certain things. It's one of those deals. You just kind of know like, and going back to the actor, the actress that like this one job, I did many jobs, but this one's particular. He's like, you can't talk to my actor. And I'm like, okay, great. I told the DP and the DP's like, oh my God. You know, was there just a control issue or was there some major, he had a major the director had very much a control issue. And he was a problem. Yeah, yeah, problem. But then you just kept, then you just kind of got to roll with it. But the funny thing is the actor came up to me later and goes, hey, if you need to give me a note, when he's back is turned, just give me the note. And I'm like, I got you. So I would do that. I'd wait till the director kind of turn around. I'd be like, hey, blah, blah, blah, blah, do this. Okay. (laughing) Unbelievable. I love the fact that like, it's like we take something that can be really hard and we make it harder for no reason whatsoever. Good Lord. Some people just have to do that. I don't know why. I don't know if it's a control thing. I mean, look, that's the thing going back into what we do. You're gonna work with all sorts of different personalities. You know, the director could be a complete douchebag. And that's their whole thing as they want to have control. And it's just like, it does. It makes the job harder. But again, you have to adapt to it. If you don't adapt to it, you're gonna be let go or you're not gonna get along with them. And that's just the way it is. And as long as you're adaptable and you can kind of just get through it, you get through it. Yeah. How do you, what's your relationship like with the AD on set? It depends on who the AD is. (laughing) That's a big question. Actually. Yeah, I actually, I get along great with the ADs. Like for the most part, it just depends on, it's again, it's personality. Like, ADs are different. Some are great. Some aren't as great. Some are just not good at the job, but good people. Some are great at the job and horrible people. Like, it just, you know, it depends on who you're working with. But I try to get along, again, going back to trying to get along with everybody and working well with everybody. I try to make sure that I can at least try to make it manage. And I'm, you know, again, going back to, I just have fun on set and try to make it a pleasant work experience. You know, again, it's observation. How do they work? Okay, I see how they're gonna work. I'll work around that. Yeah. No, that's fantastic. And so because you came out of Dolly gripping, what do you expect from your Dolly grips? And what do you look for in a good Dolly grip? I look for a Dolly grip that can actually make decisions on his own. It's not going to be like, I have to hit this mark. If I don't go from, like, if he's, if he, I feel like they, they need a monitor and if they need to make an adjustment, they can make an adjustment. I feel like it's again, make a good Dolly grip and a good operator. It's about the storytelling. It's about the framing and knowing when to adjust, when not to adjust. If something's just not right, go ahead. You know, let's make the adjustment. Let's like, like, like do it. You know, like, don't wait for me to do this. And if just because you hit, you know, A to B, doesn't mean the actor hit their marks. And if they, if you need to adjust the just, um, yeah, the best thing about Dolly grips, if you don't have to tell them anything, you know, like, that's, there's so many good ones out there that I've worked with that when you get there, you get comfortable because then you know you're going to be okay. It's the worst when you have a Dolly grip that just doesn't pay attention. And they're only focused on hitting their marks and the boom mark and all this other stuff. And in the end, it can mess up the whole thing. So it's, you know, a good Dolly grip pays attention. Know the story, knows framing, knows when to adjust and you don't have the babysit them the whole time. Fantastic. Yeah, that's, that's, that's all dead on. Well, listen, this has been a real pleasure. I know someone is watching a group of former Dimension other than what was it fast lane? Do you say it was fast lane that we met? Fast lane we met on that. Yeah, man. I don't think we've ever really sat down and talked so it's always it's always nice to meet a kindred spirit and someone who's done such incredible work as you. And here about it. Well, thank you. It's it's weird because I've told people this like sometimes I feel guilty because I don't know anybody else who gets to sit down and talk like this with as many people as I've talked to and I kind of love it because I learned stuff but also it reinforces stuff and it's just it's fascinating to me. So I really appreciate you coming on the show. I'm going to leave you with the question I leave everybody with and you can take us out with it. Advice for someone on getting into the business now on how to succeed and or something you've learned along the way that you wish you knew back in the day. I think anyone is trying to get into the business now. I mean, this is a different business now and I think we're all starting to adapt to it. You know, it's it's not how it was when I got in. It's very different. It's it's it's it's very it's a it's a scary time. But I think that anyone that really has the passion and drive to want to get into this business most important get on sets pay attention on what's going on around you. See what department you want to be in and it might not be camera. It might be something else. Really just focus on what's going on. How sets are run like you really just I think it's getting in there and even if you don't know what you're doing just like I said earlier bullshit your way and try it. You know, because the worst thing you can do is say I didn't try it. I didn't I didn't go. I wish I would have done this, but I was too nervous to do it. Just get in there and make your dreams happen. I think we were all here as in this business to make dreams happen. We didn't go. Oh, I just want to get this nine to five or this is a job. This is the dream job. This is a storytelling job. This is a this is a job that whenever it's done, it's not like, oh, I made copies and those are gone forever. No, our work stays forever. Our work is something you can always go back and see what you did. We are we have a solidified like piece of history that's that's always there to go back and look and I think that's really something amazing and you should just be proud of what you do in the end. And I think just follow your heart. It's a hard business now. I I hope everybody that gets into it succeeds, but don't give up. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.