Calls for urgent action to stop 'catastrophic' AI hacking model

ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more. Hello, I'm Barbara Miller and this is the Radio National Hour coming to you from the land of the Gadigal People of the Oranation in Sydney. Coming up, a blockade to end a blockade has begun in the straight of her moves with the United States threatening to eliminate any ships coming to or from Iranian ports. According to military analysts, the strategy could bring Iran back to the negotiating table. I'll take you to Tehran for the latest. Also ahead, why has one of the world's most powerful AI companies decided its latest model is too dangerous to release? I'll ask former cybersecurity chief Alistair McGibbon if anthropic has created a monster. And Fiji is in the grip of aspiring drug crisis, becoming a key transit point for vast quantities of methamphetamines and cocaine on route from Mexico to Australia. I was frightened, I was scared. The first thing that came comes into my mind when I was alongside the first box that landed, I want to let go of my rope and run away. But second thing comes into my mind was guns on the boat. They can kill me there. ABC reporter Stephanie Marge joins me later this hour to talk about this drug scourge spreading HIV and crime in the Pacific. The US blockade of the Strait of Hermos began midnight Australian last night, with the aim of preventing any ships entering or departing Iranian ports or coastal areas. A strategy announced by President Donald Trump after negotiations between the two countries in Pakistan ended at the weekend without agreement. It's not yet clear how the blockade will be enforced, but Donald Trump has said any attack ships will be quote immediately eliminated. Speaking to Fox News overnight, the Vice President, J.D. Vance, accused Iran of economic terrorism. They basically threatened any ship that's moving through the Straits of Hormuz. Well, as the President of the United States showed, two can play at that game. And if the Iranians are going to try to engage in economic terrorism, we're going to abide by a simple principle that no Iranian ships are getting out either. We know that's a big deal to them. We know that applies additional economic leverage. And again, Brett, the President wants the Iranian people to thrive and succeed. But just how much pressure will this blockade put on Iran? Ali Hashem is a correspondent with Al Jazeera, who extensively covers Iran. He's currently based in Tehran from where he joins me now. Ali, welcome to the Radio National Hour. Thank you very much for having me on the show. No, the ceasefire has been in place for about six days now. How does Tehran feel? Does it feel calm? Does it feel peaceful? Well, yeah, Tehran feels calm and peaceful these days on the contrary to the days of war. And right now, in one of the bustling streets of the capital, but people are anticipating what's going to happen because this is not an end to the war. It's just a ceasefire and in parallel that's still a pressure on the country. Still the country is going through sanctions. And there's a kind of uncertainty that's surrounding the whole atmosphere. And has life returned to some kind of normality in that uncertainty? For example, we know that the internet was severely curtailed, the repair, outages. Are those things functioning? And is there access to food and water? Well, let me just try to explain. Even during the war, access to food and water and electricity was normal. Actually, life was normalizing under the war. So we saw restaurants opening, malls opening, and people were kind of normalizing their life. Now, still internet is not working, except in a very limited way and for journalists. And for normal people, there is the parallel internet network, which is the internal Iranian internet that allows them to do stuff, for example, asking for deliveries, bank things. But in general, international internet is still caught. We've seen reports that young children or elderly people are being recruited to patrol the streets to man checkpoints. Have you seen any evidence of that? I don't have any information on this. I didn't see something like this. Iran has a big country. It's a vast geography. The Iran itself is a huge place. So, yeah, I mean, if there are evidence, at least I did not see any of this. And we saw, of course, those widespread protests earlier in the year, thousands of people were killed. What sense are you getting now? Is there still that sense of bubbling opposition? Or has the war, I guess, increased support perhaps for the regime? Well, given the fact that this country was kind of very polarized before the war. The situation during and then, and currently it's not after the war is during the ceasefire. And during the war was quite different because the country was under attack and people felt directly that they are threatened. Children were killed, women were killed. Hospitals were attacked, schools were attacked, universities were attacked. So, in general, the whole nation felt that it's on the threat. And it's not only an attack on an establishment that's ruling the country. There is no doubt that there are a lot of grievances and there are still there. But given the fact that the priority right now is for the existence of the mission aid from an Iranian point of view, tended to put aside these differences for now. And concentrate on how to be able to just cross this crossroads. For example, it's not only related to the nation's survival, it's related also to the livelihoods, it's related also to the unity of the nation. Because many instances, even from President Trump, suggested that even the geography of it would be preserved. So, these are issues that really matter for a nation like Iran and for people like the Iranians. So, I'm very familiar and you're listening to the radio national hour. My guest is the Al Jazeera journalist Ali Hasham. He's joining me from the Iranian capital, Tehran. Let's talk about the negotiations in Pakistan over the weekend. Tehran sent a large delegation. It was led by the parliamentary speaker Muhammad Bhagal Ghalibaf. He's one of the veteran politicians in Iran. And also he has his background in the IRGC and the internal security. So, he's not someone coming from outside. He's from the heart of the system that's been ruling Iran for the past 47. Now, given the fact that his very strong ties within the system, his ties to the new Supreme Leader, also his professional relation in the past with IRGC and security. And also being a politician himself as a speaker of the parliament and a former presidential candidate. This man is very centric in the system in Iran. However, he's not the only decision maker, actually given the fact this is a very compartmental, more layered system. There's no one man show here. So, the fact even with the Supreme Leader, there is still Supreme National Security Council. And many other institutions within the state that together contribute to the decision making. And that's what makes decision making in your very complicated. Now, we saw in the delegation that went to Islamabad, different representatives. So, Bahram al-Bakhir al-Waf, representing the political layer we saw also about representing the foreign ministry. We saw Ahmadiyan and Ali Bahram al-Khani representing the Supreme National Security Council and Supreme National Defense Council. So, it was clear that there was this combination together on the table to try to come out with a decision whenever needed. After the talks broke down or ended after 21 hours, Muhammad Bhagat Gali Bahf said it was because the US had failed to gain their trust. Many analysts would say that the talks were always destined to fail because the two sides are no such things. so far apart on so many key issues. Do you agree was there any hope of some kind of agreement in Islamabad? - Well, the fact is that the gaps are huge. Yes, gaps are very big. And the maximalist requests from both sides, whether from the Iranians or from the Americans in this regard, the Iranians are insisting on continuing their own program, their nuclear program, and that's what they say is the right. And also having their ballistic program as a defensive mechanism and defensive layer and also besides all these, their relations with their allies, the region. For the United States, it once a complete hold to the program, which is it has as a percent possibility in the Iranian establishment mindset. So given the fact there are such huge gaps, yes, the talks were destined to end this way, except if there is any side going to put on the table some very serious concessions. But there are reports that a new round is going to be held in the coming day on the level of technicians or technical experts, but still, if there is no decision to come out with a real consensus from such talks, it's very difficult, especially when President from mentality, he was clear saying that he doesn't want 90% he wants 95% to 90%, 100% he wants everything. And this doesn't work. I mean, in previous occasions, in previous times of when Iran nationalized its oil in 1951, it was the same situation and there were sanctions on Iran and there were pressure on Iran. And things did not end except with a coup d'état that was orchestrated by us and great Britain. So, and right now we are in the middle of a war, of course, not in a ceasefire, but we're still in the war. So it seems that for the moment there are no solutions. And of course, since the talks we've had this new dynamic of the US announcing its own blockade of ships leaving or trying to enter Iranian ports, it hasn't been in effect to even for 24 hours yet. Iran has made some statements about interpreting any interactions between its vessels and the US as a breach of the ceasefire. How worried do you think the regime is likely to be by this blockade? Well, I think this is playing into the establishment's hands because the first strategy was turning the table on Trump's limited war rhetoric and creating a situation where this is going to be a global crisis. And it's already becoming a global economic crisis. And now with the latest stances we're hearing from the Chinese, given the fact that China has its interests and it needs to get its oil out of Iran. So we are on the verge of a real global crisis. And I'm actually actually warned from this in one of my latest pieces in foreign policy that this is becoming a very huge challenge for the world order because now we are dealing with one straight close. What if the second straight closes, which is Babylonanda from the Yemeni side? And we know that the Iranians have this alliance with the Hoons there. So in case we have two straights closed, then the whole global economy is in Tattas. And Moussen Rizai, a former commander now senior advisor to the Supreme Leader, said Iran has large untouched levers to counter any naval blockade. What do you think he was referring to there? Could we see a dramatic response from Iran? Well, I think the Iranians would like to see the ceasefire living more and more. Now, of course, in a situation where there is blockade and continuing sanctions, the economy is straining and it's already straining and it's been straining for years. So they've land happy live on the pressure. But this pressure also has its own implication on the inside because as we were discussing, the protest in the country, the AIS polarization, there is a lot of economic pressure on the inside. So actually it's a dilemma. It's a dilemma for Iran on both the foreign and internal layers. But do you think they still have, I guess, something up their sleeve that could dramatically change the dynamic of this conflict? Militarily, Iran actually manufactures most of its arms and weapons. So I don't think that there is a real shortage in this. Regardless of the numbers that were circulating in media before of them having 2000 ballistic missiles, or I think these are just superficial analysis because the fact that no one knows what path and given the fact we've seen in the past that they were able to pose threat in different ways because they are the ones in the region who are doing this asymmetric warfare. They are capable of surging it one day in different ways or even yesterday when Donald Trump was mentioning the speedboats, the Iranian speedboats. After he said several times that he destroyed the navy, the whole navy, he said that they still have some speedboats. Actually what we know is that they have these speedboats or what they call the kamikaz boats. And also they have the underwater drones. And there might be issues that we don't know about. These are all from open sources. So the possibility of them posing threat to the US or US allies, because it's not only about the United States, also about the United States, the GCC and all the US allies in the region. We saw how things unraveled at the beginning of the war when they started just adopting the sea and strategy in Groghetson, Drona, and the cities and the Gulf and beyond. So who knows what could be the next step? And it seems that they are dealing with this escalation gradually. They're not putting all their papers on their chips on the table. Just before I let you go and briefly, if you could, the new Supreme Leader, Mojtaba, Qamene, hasn't been seen. What do we know about his condition, if I dare ask it? Do you think he is actually still alive? Well, given the fact that we have statements from him, we have a government and a state that says that he is alive. I don't have any other evidence that he's not. Now regarding his condition, there are a lot of reports. But personally, I think there's a very tight security measure taken around him, because they don't want to see another Supreme Leader being killed. And that's why, based on that, I think that we are hearing a lot of narratives, a lot of news, some conflicting news regarding his health, regarding whether he's alive or not. And where are thoughts? But I'm quite sure no one will know, except for his very, very tight circle, because there is a lot of security measures and the Iranians, as I told you, they don't want to see another Supreme Leader killed. Ali, thank you so much for joining me. Take care. Thank you very much. Ali Hashem is a correspondent with Al Jazeera English. He was speaking to me there from Tehran. Coming up, Fiji has become a vital pit stop on the trafficking route from Mexico to Australia for vast quantities of meth and cocaine. You'll hear about a special ABC investigation into the Pacific nation's spiraling drug crisis. You're listening to The Radio National Hour. On Breakfast Tomorrow with Sally Sarah. Australia will take part in a summit of world leaders with a focus on reopening the strait of hormones. So what's next for the straight and the war in the Middle East? And on changing Australia, how detection dogs are being used to find poo and save koalas? Dr. Roman Kristdescu will be my guest. ABC Radio National Breakfast, weekday mornings from 6 or anytime on ABC Listen. [MUSIC PLAYING] In the fast-moving and highly competitive world of artificial intelligence, it's rare for a company to decide not to publicly release its latest product. But that's exactly what Anthropic has done with its new AI model, Mythos Preview. In internal testing, the system reportedly found thousands of serious software vulnerabilities that could be exploited by hackers, including flaws that had gone unnoticed in major operating systems for decades. Rather than releasing the model publicly, Anthropic has instead limited access to a small group of big tech companies through a program called Project Glass Wing. Arguing the technology is simply too powerful to put straight into the wild. It's not the first time that Anthropic has sought to limit the damage its software could cause. It's in an ongoing style. with the Pentagon for refusing to let its technology be used without guardrails, which would prevent it being incorporated into autonomous weapons and for mass domestic surveillance. The new system has drawn the attention of one of Australia's most experienced cybersecurity leaders, the former head of the Australian Cybersecurity Centre, Alistair McGibbon. Alistair, welcome to the Radio National Hour. Good afternoon. Alistair, the company that's produced this and Thraulpick says it marks a step change in AI capabilities. Is that a fair way to describe Mythos preview? Well, it would seem so. There are some people in the community who question how much of this is marketing, but a number of people that I know are suggesting that it is indeed a step change and real. And I think most importantly, Barbara, we need to prepare for if not this frontier lab tool being real, the next one or the one after. So I'm going to net out saying yes, it's real. Therefore, we need to act. And you recently met with some of Anthropics US leadership when they were visiting Australia, were you impressed or concerned by what they told you? Probably both, really. I mean, clearly, super smart people, they come across as well intentioned. I think genuinely worried. This is why I net out thinking it's real. Seem to be worried that what they've created is potentially problematic from a cyber security point of view. And for your listeners, this means a tool that can not only find vulnerabilities at a rate that is beyond apparent human capacity, chain those vulnerabilities, which is way more sophisticated. I you find a vulnerability, you then pivot to go to the next one and move into an organisation. And we're still, Barbara, potentially right exploits for that to weaponize it. So yes, they came across as smart people who were genuinely worried. My only caveat I'd put and I don't want to insult the anthropic folk is I think a little bit naive as to what they've created and more importantly, how now to react to creating that. What do you mean? What is it about the way they're reacting that concerns you? Well, you've mentioned Project Glass Wing. And I describe it really as a sort of a 1990s way of solving a problem that they created in an AI era. So they're going to a select small group of organisations and pre-releasing it. Their problem is one of scale and they're solving it through one of a very bespoke approach. And I think that's naive. But I think in a broader sense, it's understanding the social and economic consequences associated potential economic, social, security, survival aspects associated with this tool that they say they have built. And I wonder, do you question why you have a built such a thing with such a capacity and now suggest to governments that they need to regulate and now suggest to organisations that need to prepare for a series of assaults on their systems. Likely will go beyond what they've experienced in the past from human hackers. It strikes me as something like, did you ever question why you were doing this? They've created a monster. Potentially. Yes. I mean, that's what they're saying. And the interesting thing about is usually the person that creates something of such potential harm. Isn't the one going around saying, I think I've created something of such potential harm. But that's exactly what anthropic is doing. And that's why I say, and I'm not trying to offend them and I'm not trying to insult all the other frontier labs folk because these people, by the way, also think they're going to cure cancer and solve a whole range of other really big human problems. So, you know, go for that. But you've also created something that sadly bad people are going to use to cause harm. And I just wonder whether they could do it in a manner that doesn't have the harm bit, which is anthropics entire sort of claim to fame. On the radio national hour, I'm speaking with the former head of the Australian Cybersecurity Center, Alistair McGibbon. We're discussing the latest AI model developed by anthropic, which the company has decided not to release publicly. You talked about it there. This project, last wing, involves releasing mythos preview to a number of technology companies. But quite a large number, several dozen, I believe, including Apple, Amazon and Microsoft. The idea is that they can use this model to find and patch security vulnerabilities. Is you concerned that that's an awful lot of people and that this technology could get into the wrong hands? Well, it's both not enough people and too many at the same time. So, let me try to explain my potentially perverse logic to you. Obviously, there's the old saying, "A secret told is a secret retold." So you've created this thing and now you're putting it into people's hands. I neglected to say one of the things I think they're most naive about. And that is, if you claim you have a tool that can hack all of these things all at once and create these exploits all at once and then do potentially bad things all at once. They know even after think that an intelligence agency somewhere around the world or criminal groups won't be going out and trying to steal access to that tool via one of these partners that you are quite logically releasing it to as a pre-release. So that's one part of naivety that I think is gobsmacking. The other part says, "Well, if you're going to release it and you've created it, you've got to get it in the hands of critical infrastructure owners and operators." They say with project glass wing that they will release this to 40 entities. You've named some of the key ones. There are some others that I'm privy to but won't say they have mentioned, for example, JP Morgan. Bank is one of those and they've publicly said that there are some cybersecurity companies and that's a good thing. But they're all largely, I'm not going to say completely, US-based companies. That's great, but I don't bank with JP Morgan. While I consume the products of those firms that you mentioned before, Apple, Google, Microsoft and so on, and it's great that their code theoretically will become more secure. Organizations rely on a whole range of software that won't be included in those entities that have had this tool release to them. In my experience, at the last 20 or so years, dealing with significant tech failure, often caused by malintended humans, it's not always the biggest bits of software that get compromised. How do we secure the world? How do you let an electricity generator, a port operator and Australian bank check the software that it relies upon? Let's say you got to that point. What about the suppliers that they rely upon that aren't actually in their systems? About a year and a half ago, a company called CrowdStrike, which by the way is one of the companies that I understand is getting access to this and that's great, caused an outage in a fraction of Microsoft's systems around the world by pushing a software update that had a flaw in it and it caused airlines to stop flying ports to stop operating banks to stop functioning. What we saw in that incident was that it wasn't just the organizations that were running this CrowdStrike software that stopped functioning. It was organizations that relied upon those organizations as key inputs to their operations. In other words, systems of systems and systems of systems and systems. So it's so complex, Barbara, that how do you secure all of the code? Because a hacker only needs to find one bin that it will damage and that's why this is problematic. And give us a sense of a couple of nightmare scenarios if this technology does get into the wrong hands. As you've said, the company says not just identify vulnerabilities, but it can create exploits with minimal prompting. Yes, look, we've had a trend and this is just accelerating a trend and whether it's this AI frontier model or the next one, really, it's semantics, right? What we've seen in the past several years is more vulnerabilities found. This will find more of them. And those vulnerabilities weaponized or exploited faster. When I first started in this space in the very early 2000s, which sounds like a long time ago, it was up to a couple of years for people to weaponize some of these known exploits. We're now down to ours. So we've created this risk scenario where there'll be more vulnerabilities found and every time a new frontier model, people are thinking, okay, well, I'll use this mythos tool to find the vulnerabilities. We'll fix them and everything will be okay. Whether that's logical, sure, until the next tool is released that's even smarter. This capacity is doubling every six months or so according to the frontier labs. So you have this situation where more and more vulnerabilities will be found and more and more harm caused by criminals and and nation states, people that want to do us harm. So what's the nightmare scenario? It's everything everywhere all at once. It is starts with one system failing and then another and another until critical infrastructure starts becoming impacted. And the humans that are here defending also sometimes using AI are trying to work out what's gone wrong. But it may not be my system that's actually been impacted. It might be another entity that I rely upon and have a contractual relationship to supply me services that stops functioning. It sounds science fiction like it sounds skies falling and I would love to be wrong. But what if I'm not? We know that it can happen. We'd have to argue that it's at some point likely to happen and any rational person should therefore start planning for this catastrophic series of events to occur. How would one plan for that? First, accept the fact that it's possible. Denial is not a strategy and it's certainly not going to protect us. So urgent discussions. Not fly in, fly out. Hey, we're going to tell you we've created something really bad. And by the way at some later stage we might release this tool to your critical infrastructure providers. It's actually sitting down and having governments rule the way governments should. Right? Even if it's an unlikely scenario, it's a catastrophic one. So you start planning for it. You certainly get critical infrastructure in a room because in Australia you kind of can and start saying how do we have you architected yourselves? What's the emergency fallback position that you've got? How do you segment this stuff? Now these are all easy words for someone to talk about, but this is infrastructure that's been in place for decades. And these organisations struggle to keep up on a good day, let alone the bad day that we're potentially going to have. On the radio, National LRM, I guess, is the former head of the Australian Cybersecurity Centre, Alistair McGibbon. We're discussing the AI company and Thropics latest model, which the company has decided not to release publicly due to its ability to find and exploit cyber security weaknesses. I just want to pick up on your commentary that you've found some of Anthropics attitude. Naive, the company is certainly positioning itself, I guess, as some kind of ethical AI company. Is it naive, though, to say, okay, we've produced this tool and we're only going to put it out on a limited release. Surely it's only a matter of time before another company is able to replicate Mythos preview. Yes, so you're right. They are a company that's prided themselves, at least in marketed themselves, tried to differentiate themselves as being the ethical AI company. And we only need to look around the world to see the other frontier labs that aren't professing to necessarily have the same philosophical view, which means that'll be widely released, because these tools keep leapfrogging each other. So will someone eventually release a tool that can hack as well or better? Absolutely. It's inevitable that that will occur, and people will use them for bad. And if we look now at Australia specifically, is it possible to say what parts of our critical infrastructure are most exposed in a world where if this tool does what it says it can, it can automate the discovery of vulnerabilities? Well, it's critical infrastructure. It's in the name. Any designated critical infrastructure sector, and there are lots of them, will be vulnerable. In the past, you would have said banking and finance sector was better protected because they've spent huge amounts of money and have large teams. But that's in the old world. And you know, one of the things I started thinking about, the other day is we've been building castles and digging moats, and every time attackers got better, we've built, you know, taller castle walls and dug deeper moats. Someone here has invented gunpowder in the space of a matter of months has now got, has converted that gunpowder into hypersonic missiles. And what we've done in the past, our ways of working will fail, inevitably will fail. So there's no sector that is beyond that given our current architecture and ways of working. And again, I just want to reiterate, I'd love to be wrong. And if people find solace in thinking that I'm going to get be wrong, terrific. There's not always fun predicting how bad this stuff could get. But again, I just want to say to listeners, if we don't think about how bad this could be, it will be worse because we're not prepared for it. In fact, you're so concerned that you're calling on Minister Tony Burke, who's portfolio, includes cyber security to convene an urgent meeting between critical infrastructure operators, private sector and AI developers within a week. What do you think a meeting like that would achieve? Well, a meeting's achieved nothing if they're just meetings. But certainly the Australian government, not just meeting a couple of times with AI frontier labs or even meeting with them every day if they're not including critical infrastructure in that. If they're not asking the people that are actually defending the critical infrastructure, whether they're satisfied, they have the right tools at hand, then government's not doing its job plain and simple. It's the number one job of the Australian government is to protect the population. This is a clear and very credible threat or at least potential threat. And critical infrastructure operators and the public have a right to know that the government's taking it very seriously and having run those parts in government in the past and still obviously having connections in there and certainly talking to a lot of critical infrastructure providers, you can never prepare well enough for a threat that is as potentially large as this. So yes, I suggested that the government should call a meeting. I'd hope it would go beyond the meeting. So that's I guess preparedness or possible mitigation or defense. In terms of regulation though, the big AI companies are in the US, many of the software companies we rely on and those as we've said who have got access to this Mythos preview are also in the US. Is this a sphere that it's just very hard for Australia to regulate? Of course, yeah, regulation always lags technology development and this is the fastest moving type of technology we've ever seen. So the thought of Australia being able to regulate its way out of this is a game we've lost before we've started and I don't think it will work. What I think the Australian government should be doing is demanding access to those tools, not even just for their own agencies to have access to because that's not sufficient. It needs to be critical infrastructure which is often and mostly private held companies that run the critical infrastructure that Australians rely upon should have access to this tool and that's the job of the Australian government to represent us and Australian industry that owns and operates this critical infrastructure to get access to these tools now, not in a month's time, not in two months time, not rely upon some large 40 large companies on the other side of the world even if they have Australian offices to be sufficient to check the hundreds of thousands of systems to try to reduce the likelihood of a catastrophic outcome. And just before I let you go, it's all fairly scary stuff. Should individuals be worried? I think individuals should be asking what the Australian government is doing to help protect them. There's nothing an individual Australian can do. These tools have been built. They are being released. They will be stolen. If they're not, someone else will produce one and it will be stolen or more widely released. So it's just the new norm. The world is an ending. I don't want people to be scared but they're entitled to start wondering about significant technical failure occurring because this technology and this code was not built for the type of environment we're renting into. And even if we were to secure it against this tool, the next tool will be stronger and find more vulnerabilities. So it's changing the way we work. I've been in this space for decades. The reality of this is that it's going to get worse and let's not be naive as to how quickly that could occur and how widespread that harm could be. So all I'm urging the Australian government to do and I don't think it's too much for an ask is to show to the Australian public, show to critical infrastructure owners and operators that it's advocating for that direct access to try to protect, to try to sandbag against an inevitable flood in a river that we know the water is rising in. Those sandbags may not work but not putting them out is not going to stop the flood. Putting them out and trying your best is how Australians have always coped with these threats and that's what we need to be doing for this. Alistair McGibbon, thank you very much for joining us on the Radio National R. Much appreciated. Alistair McGibbon was the founding head of the Australian Cyber Security Centre and the special advisor to the Prime Minister on Cybersecurity. And don't forget you can always hear the Radio National R live or you can catch up anytime on the ABC Listen app. Just press the heart button and you'll have the show and all your favourites delivered directly to your device. It's pristine beaches, beautiful coastline, lush resorts and laid back attitude have cemented Fiji's reputation as a top honeymoon destination and dream holiday getaway. Around 400,000 Australians travel to the island nation each year, but Fiji's topography and location have also been attracting a different kind of business. Tonight's foreign correspondent program investigates this dark reality. The Pacific is in the midst of a war on drugs. Ruflas transnational prime networks are shipping tons of cocaine and myth by any means they can. It's crazy to think the links that these cartels are going to to get their drugs across the ocean for the Australian market. Fiji, some say, is now ground zero for a major transnational drug network with tons of methamphetamine and cocaine being funneled through it on its way to our shores. The crisis has put enormous strain on authorities as they try to combat smugglers and keep drugs out of the hands of Fiji in communities. It can feel like a losing battle. Intravenous drug use is rapidly escalating as is an HIV epidemic with diagnoses increasing exponentially. To unpack all this, I'm joined now by foreign correspondent, senior reporter Stephanie March, who led the investigation. Stephanie, welcome to the Radio National Hour. Thanks, Bob. This is a two-part investigation. It's called cartel paradise. Why has Fiji become what you call a pit stop in drugs muggling operations? Well, first, it's geography and second, it's our fault. So Australians have an appetite for drugs that's not like anywhere else in the world, where some of the biggest consumers of methamphetamines and cocaine anywhere on the planet. We pay some of the highest prices for cocaine and methamphetamine anywhere on the planet. Obviously, those drugs have to come from somewhere, usually that's central South America or Asia. Obviously, a good way to get them through is via the Pacific with remote islands. It's very isolated. What's happened in the last few years is the volume of drugs coming through has just exploded. At the start of the year in January, Fiji Police, for example, sees 2.6 tons of cocaine, which four Ecuadorians claim to have brought on a narco sub before transferring to a yacht and then bringing on shore. Now, 2.6 tons sounds like a lot. We're since the start of the year, across all of the South Pacific, authorities have seized 16 tons of cocaine and believe it or not, according to New South Wales Police, that hasn't made a dent in terms of the street price of cocaine. So you just think about how much is still getting through. So essentially, it's purely because these places are isolated. They're quite susceptible to corruption. Paulie paid police, Paulie paid customs officers, can assist with facilitating, which is something we look at in tonight's programme. And as a result, you have this scourge of drugs flooding through our neighbouring countries. What co-towels are we talking about? Well, the big hall of meth that we really examine, it was four tons of meth found in early 2024, in two houses, in Nandy, was sent, we've discovered by the Sineloah cartel. But as the police say, it's all of them. You know, the New South Wales Police have told us that essentially every organised crime group in New South Wales is using the Pacific in some way, that all crime is global now, when it comes to being able to try and make a profit, because the market here in Australia is just so profitable. And do you know how the drugs in that record hall would have got to Australia? In this particular case, one of the things that the Fiji Police revealed to us is some of the drugs from that meth hall that it took police about three weeks to find, from the time it came on shore to when they made the bust. Some of it did make its way to Australia, and they believe it came through the airlines. Now, interestingly, what we find out in this episode is that there is a history of particularly drugs being smuggled on the national carrier of Fiji airways. It's come up in court documents before. So essentially what this illustrated in Fiji is this concept of drip and feed where drug cartels want to stockpile their drugs in somewhere like Fiji or remote isolated place with poor law enforcement. And they'll send small quantities over to Australia, bet on airlines, bet on small boats. So it's not to one flood the market in Australia and tank the price. And it's much more secure to keep it over there where there's not so many eyes on it than if it was say stockpile four tons of meth here in Sydney, for example. Let's have a listen to a clip from someone who becomes involved in this meth bust you're talking about. I was frightened. I was scared. The first thing that came comes into my mind when I was alongside the first box that landed. I want to let go of my rope and run away. So that was a man called Tui, a barge skip religious tellers, a history. Yeah, so amazingly in this case there was more than a dozen Fijians were sort of originally charged. Nine of them ultimately were convicted over this plot. But we've discovered through looking through police witness statements that more than 20 Fijians essentially were in some way roped into this drug smuggling operation. Some wittingly, some completely unwittingly. And Tui is one of those. He's a barge skipper. He's got 20 years of experience. He works for an Australian man called David Wright. A Fijian guy came to David and said, "Hey, can I charge you a boat to pick up some rubbish off a super yacht out in the high seas?" Both David and Tui thought, "Ah, super yacht, that's good money. Might get a tip. They might pay well." So it took three goes to he's skippering this barge out. And the guy kept saying, "I can't find the yacht. I can't find the yacht." The last minute the Fijian man who'd chartered the barge, he said, "I'm not coming, but I'm sending this Russian guy in my place." And the Russian guy punched in the coordinates coordinates. And as they approached instead of it being a super yacht with some rubbish to take off it, it was this yacht that had on board more than four tons of meth with what Tui described as two European men and a Mexican. And they just stopped tossing these bales of drugs onto his barge. To the point where he thought it might actually sink. And he said, "Stop, stop, stop." And they said, "I've only got a bit more to go." And then he motors back. And the guy who organized the barge is waiting at a secluded jetty in Fantasy Island, which is really close to the tourist hotspots that a lot of people would be familiar with. And the guy's waiting with a truck in a crane. And they lifted off and they take it to a warehouse and they store it in different locations for several weeks. But Tui didn't know what to do. He was beside himself. He was really worried for several weeks before the police found the meth that he might ultimately be implicated, be charged, and potentially spend time in jail. And tell me there was some interesting detail about this bulge on which the drugs restore it according to Tui. Yeah, so not a luxury super yacht, that's for sure. But what do we realise when he approached it? And this is a guy who's been navigating the ocean for more than 20 years. He said there was a lot of barnacle growth on this boat. He said like two inches, which is quite a lot. So what he and his boss David explained is that means this boat hasn't been slipped for a long time. It hasn't been cleaned. And their suspicion is that this boat has just been essentially fairing drugs across the Pacific possibly for years undetected. And tell us about the alleged role of an Australian man in this drug haul. A man described as the kingpin of the network who's he and what's he alleged to have done. Yeah, so late last year, nine Fee Geons, as I say, were charged over this meth haul. And in handing down the judgment and the sentences, a Fee Ge High Court judge named a Sydney businessman by the name of Sam Armeen as a drug kingpin who orchestrated this shipment of drugs. And in the judgment, he accepted that Sam Armeen had helped pay for and arranged for the shipment of drugs to be brought on shore using an encrypted app called Threema. And that the drugs were stored in warehouse of Sam Armeen's for several days. Fee Ge police have told us that Sam Armeen left the country before they found the drugs. And so we've been digging into his past. He's been coming to Fee Ge for more than a decade. He's owned several businesses there, a gym, several properties. We can also reveal in this program that senior law enforcement sources believe him to have links to organized crime both in Fee Ge and in Australia. So he's never been charged over this importation in Fee Ge. And we go into a bit more detail about his history there and in Australia. We did ask Sam Armeen for a response to the allegation that he was involved in the Fee Ge importation and has a role in organized crime. And he declined to comment citing the ongoing proceedings. Is Fee Ge seeking his extradition? Fee Ge police have told us that their investigation is ongoing. And I think one of the most intriguing parts of an interview we did with the Assistant Police Commissioner, Maseki Wonga, as he said, me and the Police Commissioner, it is our wish to see Sam Armeen on trial here in Fee Ge. Because for them, it's locals that have been paying the price. And there is this record from the High Court judge that this man was involved and yet he's never been brought to trial there in Fiji. So it's interesting that the Fiji police said that, you know, that is ongoing and that they are working with partners here in Australia, the AFP and other police to pursue that investigation. Stephanie Marich is my guest on the Radio National LARRA. We're talking about her foreign correspondent investigation into the drug network running through Fiji. You say that Fiji is in danger of becoming a nation of zombies, you're referring to the growing drug problem. They're growing HIV epidemic. Just give us a sense of the scale of that problem. Yeah, that was a comment from a minister in Fiji that Fiji is at risk of becoming a nation of zombies. If, and the government calls it, it's a national crisis, the drug epidemic and its meth is the problem. So essentially what was explained to us is, you know, if you're a drug smuggling, you need a few trusted insiders to help get your drugs through. You need maybe a corrupt police officer, maybe you need a corrupt corruption, a customs officer. And they used to be paid with cash. Now they're paid with drugs. So they get the few hundred grams of meth and then for them to turn that from a few thousand dollars into much more, they sell it. So they create a market. So now Fiji has this meth market. There's people, you know, you can see that there are people who are using. We were told that the youngest drug user that someone had seen and that the police have interacted with a 10 of 14. So it's a really serious problem over there. And it's not just the use of meth. So in Fiji most users, they don't smoke meth. They inject it. And the rise in meth use has coincided with a crack down on the selling of clean needles. The government sort of. Well, pharmacies are under the impression that if they sell clean needles to drug users, they could be charged with aiding and abetting drug use. So it's really hard to get clean needles. What's that has led to is needle sharing, which is now prolific, which then has led to Fiji having the fastest growing HIV epidemic of any nation on the planet. And part two next week, can you give us a sneak preview? Yeah, so part two is. It's another amazingly eye-opening journey through the Pacific. We go to Tonga, we go to Solomon Islands, we take you to Columbia. To essentially show you more about the routes and the evolving mechanisms of how these cartels are going to all and any lengths to get drugs to this look at the Australian market. We look into narco subs, which are these semi-submersibles built in the clandestine shipyards of the jungles of Colombia designed to evade detection by authorities as they make the journey across oceans and around islands to deliver drugs. We visit one of these narco subs that's washed up in Solomon Islands, just to see exactly what it's like. We delve into Solomon Islands and its relationship, I suppose, with being a very vulnerable place for becoming a hotspot for drug smugglers because of a lack of enforcement, a lack of resources. And then in Tonga, it's also sort of different again. So Tonga has obviously a really big diaspora in Australia, New Zealand and the US. And also what comes with that is the deportation policies of those countries. See a lot of people with criminal records being sent back and there's a great fear that they're bringing their criminal ways when it comes to drug crime back with them. And we delve into the alleged attempt to set up a branch of the outlaw criminal motorcycle gang, the common cheros. And amazingly, we end up doing a pretty fascinating interview inside of Tonga and prison about that case. It sounds amazing, Steph March, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me. Stephanie March is a reporter with the Foreign Correspondent Programme and you can watch part one of her investigation. This evening Stephanie was also working with ABC reporters across the Pacific. The episode is Carthel Paradise. It's on ABC TV and ABC I View at 7.55pm. That's it from me today. Do join us tomorrow. I'm going to be speaking with the American Blues legend Eric Bibb ahead of his latest Australian tour. And of course a musician of his stature couldn't possibly be allowed to swing by our studios without recording a few tunes. Eric Bibb and his guitar join me tomorrow on the Radio National Hour. Hope to catch you then. [Music] You've been listening to an ABC podcast. Discover more great ABC podcasts, live radio and exclusives on the ABC Listen app.