Caller: My Wife Wants Me to Quit My Job

brought to you by my friends at churchill mortgage if you're looking to buy or refinance check them out i've used churchill and they are great go to churchillmortgage.com i'm approaching my 20 years in the fire department and uh my wife has made it somewhat clear to me that that she wants me to go ahead and retire. If you make this big decision based on what she wants you to do, the possibilities of it working out well is very slim. What up, what up, what up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show, coming to you from Nashville, Tennessee, taking your calls. Real calls from real people going through real challenges. People who are trying to figure out their marriages, their relationship with their kids, their schools, their workplace, their mental and emotional health. Whatever you got going on, pull up a seat and we're going to figure out together the next right move. All right, let's go out to Phoenix, Arizona and talk to Thomas. What's up, Thomas? Hey, how's it going? I'm good, brother. How are you, man? I'm all right. What's up? I'm approaching my 20th. Years in the fire department in this area. And my wife has made it somewhat clear to me that she wants me to go ahead and retire. We were early adopters of Dave Ramsey's financial plan and started squirreling away money real early. So it's not so much the money, it's the loss of purpose. It's all the effort of trying to be excellent at my job and then just leave it. Because there's not a lot of things that transfer. I'm still pretty young, I'm 47. And my wife wants me to pursue music and take a pretty big jump down in income. And man, I'm all kinds of nervous. And every time I think about it, I start to get upset. A little background that will help. I'm in one of the busiest areas of Phoenix and actually the highest crime district. And 10 years ago, it was the wild, wild west. And I had some issues with injuries, getting hurt. And I had some issues with PTSD as well. I'm good now. Did EMDR and all the things. But she doesn't want me to fill up the emotional bucket again. She wants me to leave. I haven't heard yet what you wanted to do. I don't know. We're both deeply religious. And when I got hurt, I was on my back. How did you get hurt? You said it was the wild west. Did you get shot? Did you get in a fight? I've been assaulted and vomited on and all kinds of stuff. I Narcan somebody almost every day. Sure. Totally. Yeah. When I actually got hurt, I was doing CPR on a large man that I had to stand over. And I heard he had a disc in my neck and got hurt real bad. But I was off the truck for about six months and had paralysis in my arm. And that's when the PTSD that I had so much time. I started to have nightmares, ended up having to go do EMDR. And, you know, I'm good now. I really am. Sure. But in that time, I. Here's what I want to protect you from, okay? A, I want you to hear me say that I'm grateful for you and I love you. And I'm glad that you have done this for two decades, serving your community. It's amazing. And it sounds like you and your wife have also built a pretty good marriage where y'all can speak to each other pretty openly. Y'all have had shared visions and plans and all that's cool. If you make this big decision based on what she wants you to do, the possibilities of it working out well to where you still. Are connected with her is very slim. Because if anything doesn't go well, if there's a financial downturn and suddenly y'all are struggling, if the pension runs out in Arizona or Arizona runs. Phoenix runs out of water and y'all end up. Like everything will be, I told you so. Or I did this because you said I had to. And so what I want you to do is with her guidance and her wisdom and every first responder needs a partner that will be able to see, you know, like cover their sick. Like be able to. To point out, I see something happening in you, right? And everyone needs teammates, partners, all of that. But you've got to own what you do next. You know what I'm saying? Even if it is, I'm going to choose my wife and my kids or whatever your family situation is over this job, I'm owning it. But if you say, my wife wants me to quit, so I quit. She wants me to retire. I want to retire. She wants me to pursue music. She wants me. She wants me. She wants me. She wants me. You're just outsourcing this really tough decision. You're talking about an identity change. You're talking about a life shift. You're talking about the loss of brotherhood. You're talking about the loss of, like you said, purpose and like all of it. That's huge. And it doesn't mean it's the wrong thing, but you have to go first in that choice. Yeah. Is that fair? It's fair. And I don't want. And the main reason is I don't want you to resent your wife. I don't want you to resent your wife. Yeah, I don't. It's hard to imagine resenting her. I get that. I get that. But this kind of shift, I've never met a first responder in this way that has not had bumps and bruises along the way as they change identities. You're a fireman for 20 years. This is who you are. You've run a schedule. You run a shift. You've got a gang. You've got people. Like, you've run a very tight, organized, disciplined way of doing life. Right? Yeah. And you've got to carry the shield with you. And you laid all that down. Man, it might be right and good. My dad did it. My dad was a homicide detective, a SWAT hostage negotiator. He was a bad dude, and he set it all down. He retired and moved to a whole other career for years. That was a. That was a tough transition. And the transition was right for him, but I don't want during that tough season of transition of what this is going to look like, who am I going to be, what am I going to do, am I worrying about money, am I worrying about this, do I not feel like I'm pulling my weight, all that stuff, I want you to say, I chose this. And also, I want you to say, if you're done, be done, man. Like, I say that so easily, right? Like, ha-ha. Like, be done. And own what. All of that means, you know what I mean? But I hear you speaking of your time there. If you leave now, that it's somehow a loss, that you somehow wasted your time. Do you feel that way, or am I just hearing that wrong? I don't feel like it's a waste. I feel like I've contributed. Like, our way of thinking is kind of different. Like, what's important to me isn't even financial. It's leaving my thumbprint on the world. And I'm thankful that the department has allowed me to, you know, make a difference. And then it's. You know, the next thing is, is music a way for me to play at church? Is that what I'm supposed to do? Is it. What is this? And everything's. Every big change like this is just really scary. Yeah. And I'm, you know. I hear her words, and I hear, you know, my friends and family chiming in. And I just. And it's tough to actually write that letter and go turn it in. And it closes a chapter on my dream job. Yeah. It's strange to leave my dream job. And so, here's some just things to think about. We won't be able to answer them all here, but here's just some things I would consider. Has your financial situation, which is important. Everybody's got a math problem they have to solve, right? And the math problem doesn't have any feelings or emotions attached to it. It's just an is, right? You've solved that math problem, but is the thing beneath the math problem. Is it your wife? let me tell you something my mom told me when I was leaving uh I don't know if I was leaving high school leaving college I had visions of law enforcement of some shape form or fashion and my mom said ask me please don't do this and I was like why like dad's a hero whatever and she said because every day for the last however many years I hold my breath till he gets home and that was the first time I I I got it lived like oh there's another side to this somebody's carrying the weight while you're gone right and when you're out on a call and you've got a bunch of other folks and you've got EMS people with you and you've got police officers out there with you your spouse is at home by her by herself right and so like if she is looking at you saying I and again I want her to own her place I want her to own her place I want her to own her place I don't know that I can handle another 10 years of you going out and potentially getting spit on vomited on beat up shot at whatever and let like be hurt let have her be honest or her saying I love the fact that you're a firefighter i'm watching the man i love slowly dissolve in front of me but that now we're getting beneath the thing right that did happen okay i did tell me about the breakdown so when i got hired there was all kinds of stuff you know i thought it was the greatest job i i had all these fires constantly and it was it was the wild west but then we started getting you know southwest phoenix you know human trafficking and all this stuff and it it slowly ate away at me yeah um and i just got more and more angry as time went on and um you know almost lost my marriage almost everything just slowly became this angry person that that stared in the darkness for too long and it stared back there you go so that's what she's afraid of like i've done so much work and did all this stuff and emptied my my bucket i don't have nightmares i don't have anything i i'm reluctant to say i have ptsd because i don't have any symptoms indr was amazing but she doesn't want me to fill that bucket up again and and she's voiced her concerns she won't force me to sure of course of course but she's just like hey financially we're fine god gave you this gift pursue that like i i that's that's as as firmly as she says it gotcha that's it and so the the the you probably know this i i speak to firefighter groups and police officer groups and first all over the country the thing i always say to that group is i'm a dad of two kids i need you doing this job but i need you to do the work that it's gonna take because if everybody quits we're we're dude we're done for all this get rid of police and fire it's it's a madness you don't want to live in a culture in a society without helpers right um and so but that means you've got to do the work to be well outside of this thing so that you can go in and stare in the darkness like you said i love that language and so my question for you is if you've reached a point where like here so here's a couple of things you've got to have you've got to have a physical fitness practice outside of your body and you've got to have a physical fitness practice And that might be yoga. That might be, I did yoga for years with a, it's just like awesome, not years, probably one year, with this awesome police officer. The least yoga person you've ever seen in your life. but he said like this is how i keep it all glued together and it was awesome and i remember the yoga instructor would always say lean into this position it's delicious and we'd all used to laugh but he was like all all in right so like it but it's you having a place where you are taking care of ownership are you taking being a steward of your body right do you have friends that are not first responders that don't have go ahead yes okay my best friend's a pastor and we've been friends well that's still a first responder if you're i mean yeah i mean i'm talking about folks who help here's what i'm looking for that help you reset your bell curve because when you stare outside of your body and you've got to have a physical fitness practice outside of your body because when in the darkness for a job it's really easy to believe that the whole world is dark and it's not and so your whole life becomes only showing up in people's worst moments and it's easy that your body begins to see every moment as a worst moment and having friends. So my two closest buddies, one is an air conditioning guy, an HVAC guy, and one's a banker, right? Like those, they have nothing to do with mental health at all. And so when they're talking about this or that or that or this, it just pulls my body out of the chaos, right? Another one of my closest friends is a real estate guy. Another one of my closest friends is a high school, I mean, a middle school teacher and a writer like it just pulls you out of oh there is good and light and beauty in the world a whole lot of it and that refills the tank if you will so you can go back in and deal with the darkness that's sitting with hurting people all that to say is like if you don't want to if you're afraid to go back not afraid that's bad language if you don't want to keep doing the work on the side so that you can stay well and hold doing this thing, that is okay. I also want to give you a, and you said you're a person of faith. I'm a person of faith. I'm going to tell you something. And for people who are not people of faith, I think this is instructive also. I had a long conversation with an important mentor of mine one time, and I told him I was leaving him high and dry. I committed to something and then I was uncommitting and it was going to really put him in a bind. And I just, in my guts, I knew it was not the right move. And I overrode my own guts for a long time. And I ended up hurting a lot of people. It's one of my great shames of my life. But while we sat together, I, over and over, I was like, dude, I've prayed about this. I'm just waiting for the God of the universe to tell me what to do, what to do. And I'm not getting any clear answers and I don't know. And he interrupted me and he said, has it ever occurred to you? If God wants your attention, he'll get it. Otherwise, he doesn't care what you do. He cares who you are, wherever it is you're going. And I don't know how theologically accurate that is, but I want to tell you that freed me. It freed me. What matters is, am I going to be a good anchored husband? Am I going to be in service to myself so that I can be in service to my wife, to my community, and to my church, and to my whatever work I do? Who am I going to be if I choose to play music? Who am I going to be if I choose to do this and do music on the weekends? Who am I going to be if I forget all this and become a barista, right? Like, who am I going to be? And that's going to be the honoring place, right? Yeah. Because, dude, you're a talented guy with a wife who is ride or die with you. I can tell by the way y'all communicate with each other. You're going to always have opportunities. Always. You're a good man. You're a good leader. you're not afraid of hard things you're you're disciplined and you're a musician that means you see the world with a you have an artist expression dude you're gonna have any business in the world would be a benefit from you joining their team so the question is less of less about where you end up and it's it's more about who do you choose to be as you as you enter into those spaces I'm shaking my head I just realized you can't do that no that's alright so this is a hard question to ask has your time with the fire department come to an end and this is not me asking your wife this is me asking you has it come to an end maybe okay hard yeah i mean it's it's yeah it's it's tough to say you know 10 years ago i would have i would have left readily yeah but um it's kind of by reclaiming myself i've kind of fallen in love with aspects of it again and learned better balance. There you go. I don't feel like I'm slipping away and I feel like I can do this longer. But her concerns are very, very, very, very legitimate. Of course, she has a lived experience. She's seen the dark side of this. Can I ask you a question? I have too. Oh, you've experienced the dark side of it, yeah. Can I ask you a wild question that people of faith always seem to be uneasy, uncomfortable answering? Sure. What do you want to do? I actually can answer that easy. I just want to serve God as best I can with whatever talents I have. I just, whenever I make that move and I pray that prayer and I try to do that, it's always something I'm really uncomfortable with. So whatever God has in plan, if God has something in plan for me, I'm nervous about what that is. okay so let me let me a lot i'm going to challenge you and i might be wrong in my challenge right i'm not going to read the comments on this call okay um all right i heard your answer as it's going to sound awful as a cop-out what do you want to do because and i and i say that because people of faith are so scared to say out loud what they want to do because they think that there's like it was if it's in opposition to what do you want to do do you want to do you want to keep being a fireman because if you so you know that that's going to take work a b c and d that's going to be part of your life and you and your wife are going to establish some check-in moments and some clarity moments and some deep connection moments and y'all going to have some alarm bells that that y'all are going to preset some tripwires so that if you start staring into the darkness too much that she's got permission to call you like y'all gonna do that and if you choose to quit this completely and go be a worship pastor somewhere you're gonna have x y z a b c d e f g work to do because you'll be uncoupling one identity while picking up a new one and you'll be learning a new while picking up a new one and you'll be learning trade and a new this and a new that, right? It's not just strumming the guitar. It's a whole different, it's a job, right? It's an experience. And that's going to take a ton of new work. Right? So the question before you isn't like, well, I just got to go with the winds. I just got to sit here until God tells me what to do. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's not like he's hidden the purpose. And you like, your job is to like spend your whole life excavating for it, right? Yeah. I think I do. I think I do want to pursue music. I think I do want to be a music pastor and worship leader. Can you do both of those for a while? I kind of already am. I play constantly at bars and restaurants and do long sets. And that's really made it easy for me to start playing at church. And leading worship and I do that pretty regularly now. Awesome. So I would get with a couple of folks in Phoenix who are full-time worship pastors and show up with a pen and a paper and say, tell me about your life. Because my dad quit being a police officer to become a pastor, to become a minister. And that came with its own set of complications, both in marriage and life and family and all of it. I was actually a minister before I was a firefighter. Okay. So there you've been there, right? Yeah. Yeah. So you're just trading one first responder job for another. People might not be shooting physical bullets at you, but people are mean, right? Yeah. But whatever you choose to do next, let me tell you this. I want you to own it. I want you to look at your wife and say, I am so grateful that you were honest with me, that you walked me through what you're feeling, what you're experiencing. And I want to make sure I don't outsource this decision to you. If I choose to leave this thing I've done for 20 years, I want to say I was in the driver's seat. And pray whatever prayers you want to pray. And I, dude, I pray every day of my life. I believe in that big time. And pray for blessing and pray for wisdom and pray for obstacles if you're taking the wrong path. All that is well and good. But if you pursue this thing, take full ownership of it and don't treat it as an out from this. Treat it as a, like, like you're don't, don't take a new thing because you're running from something. Take a new thing because you're running towards something and say, my season as a firefighter is over these 20 years. And by the way, let me, let me like be really clear here. There are people who are alive because you were there. There are families that have full Thanksgivings and Christmases together because you showed up in the middle of the night. You've put your mark on countless families, fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, sons, daughters. You've been there for people. And ministry is another way of being there for people, both on stage and off. You're a good man. And so next, make the next right move for you. I don't know. Maybe if you don't pull all your retirement out, which I hope you don't do, then you go do this ministry thing for two years and you're like, that's not for me. And maybe they'll have you back. Maybe not. Maybe once you're gone from the station, you're gone, but go towards something and be in the driver's seat and be honest about, yes, I will. I want to honor God's purpose in my life. Yes. I want to honor my faith. All that's of course, but also be honest about what do you Thomas want to do? And my guess is if you go into it eyes wide open with, with, I want to do this thing because I want to help these people. I want to give people at a bar, a night of singing songs together. I'm going to give people in a Sunday school, a church, a good worship service. I want to set the mood. I want to bring people together through song. Awesome, man. I want to be about helping people. If that's your other mission, man, I have a feeling that what God really cares about in those moments is who are you when you're doing those things? So blessings to you, man. It's been an honor to talk to you. Um, just know that whatever path you take, it's going to be hard. Choose your heart. Like I say that over and over again on the show, but, um, choose your heart. Thanks for the call brother. When we come back, a woman asks if she should tell her husband that his best friend confessed he's attracted to her. We'll be right back. This is an ad from better help. Have you ever had a thought or a moment that replays over and over in your head? Maybe it's a worry that wakes you up at 2 AM or that awkward interaction you had with your coworker last week, or maybe it's some painful or embarrassing thing or things that happened years ago that you just keep replaying over and over and over. Whatever it is, we've all been there. I've been there too. 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It's such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for taking my question. Yeah, of course. It's a pleasure talking to you. What's going on? Yes. So my question is, should I, I basically tell my husband that his best friend confessed that he's attracted to me. I've been with him for 15 years. I'm married to him for, we're going on 10 years. He's been best friends with his friend longer than I've been around. And recently we went out and our network of friends is very close. We're, we're, we're all married. We all have children. We always hang out. And recently we went out and he texts me saying, are you guys home? So I was like, yes. Okay. And then after that, he tells me, oh, I need to, we need to talk. And I'm like, I got worried. I'm like, what do we need to talk about? So he told me, oh, are you sure that, that this text message is bulletproof? So I was like, yes. Mind you, I thought he was going to tell me something regarding my husband or maybe his wife. I don't know. I mean, this is a close friend and he's reaching out. Like I'm friends with all my closest buddies. I'm, I'm close with all their wives too. And they're all close with my wife. Like, so this is a normal, like, Hey, I need to talk to you about something big. And you thought it was about the health of his family or his friend or worried about your family. And you thought it was something that he needed to, I don't know, maybe he needed my opinion on. Um, then it turns out that I fall asleep. I don't, I don't reply back. Um, so the next day I'm like, Hey, sorry, I fell asleep. What's going on? So then he tells me, um, every time that we hang out, I can't stop looking at you. Um, this has something, this is something that has happened since I first met you. Um, and I feel horrible about it, but I needed to get it off my chest. So you carry it now? Exactly. That's what I'm dealing with now. Um, I, to be honest, I didn't know what to say. Um, it was kind of like frozen at the moment because it's, I don't know, it's a lot to process. Um, you're a best friend's wife. Why are you even talking to me this way? Yes. What was your response? I told him that, um, that he needed to check himself and that I could refer him to either a psychiatrist or an eye doctor that I didn't know really what to tell him. Hey, I excellent. Like it to me, you're, you're crazy. Yeah. This is crazy. Um, in his mind, it's not. So to answer your original question, yes. Secrets will destroy your, like, what are you supposed to do now? You all go out and he's just looking at you where I'm conflicted. And how can I say this? Where I'm struggling, with is because that is something that's going to devastate my husband. Okay, but let me give you another reframe. And I honor the fact that you're worried about hurting your husband. You won't be the one who hurt your husband. His best friend is the one who stabbed him. You're just letting your husband know that this has happened. And I'll give you another thing that, let me say this, you've been put in an incredibly difficult position. Okay? A position you didn't ask for, a position that's unfair, a position that was thrown on you. Okay? And so what you, your responsibility in this moment is to look in the mirror and ask, who do I want to be in light of what has just happened to me? And I want you to remain a person of character, dignity, and love, and honor of your husband. This person that clearly you love and loves you. And yes, it's going to devastate your husband, but the devastation's already happened. And now, let's change it up. Think how bad it's going to hurt your husband to go out and feel how awkward and uncomfortable you are, his best friend is, and he goes home and thinks it's him. Right? The damage has been done. The question for you is, what is this damage going to look like and will it magnify and accelerate by, through secrecy, through dishonesty, through, like, you know what I mean? That happened a couple weeks ago, right? Okay. Just to give you a little more backstory. Then after that, exactly after that weekend, we ended up having, another outing because we had bought tickets for something. And during that outing, there was a moment where my husband and his wife had gone to the restroom and we stayed in wherever we were and he apologized for it. For, he said he was out of pocket, that he, that he, it was just because he had a couple drinks, which, to be honest with you, I think it's BS. That's not true because he did it the next day. Because he did it the next day. That's right. Exactly. So to me, I'm like, like, I feel horrible because first of all, this is, I don't, I feel terrible because one, it's going to devastate my husband. Two, this is going to break, I know this is not going to be good for our friend group. So the nuclear, the natural support that we have is going to be altered by me opening up and saying this. No, no, no, no, no. It's been altered already. It's already, the pin on the grenade has already been pulled. It wasn't you that pulled it. And then I feel bad because like, my husband deserves better than this. Yes, yes. This is somebody that you think that, that he is your brother, but you call him your brother. Yes. And here's who, here's who owes him that, you, you're his wife. And so you sit down with him and say, I'm going to tell you some news that's going to devastate you, okay? And he'll say, what, what, what? And be like, no screens, no nothing. I'm going to give you some news that's going to devastate you. And I'm going to ask you to respond, to not respond to anything tonight. And you're going to have, and here's the thing, you're going to have to be honest with him and say, I've sat on this, for a few weeks. Cause he, if, if, if that was me and my buddy, one of my best friends did that to my wife. And then we all went out again a few days later. My first question was, we, we, you went out again. That would have been my first question. So you have to look at him and say, I didn't say anything for two weeks. And then we ended up going out back out again. And he tried to brush onto the rug. It sounds like what he's doing is thing. I don't have a technical term for it. I just call it fishing. When somebody kind of throws something out there a little bit, just to see if there's any possibility that you'll take the bait. And then it, they can be like, Oh no, no, man. I just wasn't in my right head. I had too many drinks or I was just playing, man. I was totally playing. I was just kidding. Right. And you know that, you know, how about this? If you had responded with, I've been thinking about you too. You know, you'd be in a very different situation right now, right? Oh, for sure. Okay. Yeah. So let's don't, let's don't let this off with a, Oh no, it's all your husband's best friend. Your close friend made a pass at you over your husband, over his wife. And he blew up your friend group. He chose to destroy years of friendship, connection, whatever. And so the question you have, before you is not how do I minimize the damage? The damage is done. The question is how do I continue to be a person of integrity and character? How do I continue to love my husband? Cause he's my ride or die. How do I love him in the face of this kind of betrayal? Where one of his own best friends propositioned his wife. I guess I just want to free you from the guilt of what's that fall out of this thing. Cause you didn't pull the pin. It's so wild. I know. It's wild to even hear it out loud. I know. But you also know I'm right. Don't you? I know. No, I know you're right. It's just, it's. Because, because in a strange way, the way I'm going to say this isn't going to be right. So for people listening, I'm just asking for some grace. I'm gonna say this the wrong way, but this, this other man has already inserted himself in your bed. He is now in between you and your husband. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. He's between the two of you. And every time you reach for your husband or your husband reaches for you, he's in the middle. This big secret now. And it's, it's, to be honest, it's, it's devastating because we have all of us, including his wife, have years of friendship. Our kids are best friends. We go on vacations together. We go on trips together. His, his family is married to my husband's family. And now it's. I don't even know how my husband would react. I mean, I know he would be devastated, but to be honest with you, I'm kind of scared of what his reaction would be. Over or under. What do you mean? Meaning, is he going to get in his car and go over there and try to kill this guy? And that would be over or under? Is he going to be like, ah, it's not a big deal. And you're going to have that, that, that like, wait a minute, you're not going to fight for me? Not physically fight, but like, you're not, you know what I mean? Like you're, you're putting his feelings above me. Um, what I think, I mean, I mean, he, he probably going to be like, you know, like we show me, you know, like. I, I, I honestly, I would hand him, I would hand him the phone, but then, but then he would be very upset at his. That's right. Yeah. I would hand him the phone and say the other night after we went out, I got this series of text messages. I fell asleep. I got up the next day. I was like, what's going on? I thought something was worried, was happening with his wife. I thought he was worried about you. And here's what he texted me. And look at your husband and say, I didn't know what to do. I was so stunned, so shocked. I didn't know what to do. And so I said nothing and I'm sorry. And then we went out again and he tried to cover it up. And I should have said something earlier, and I'm sorry. And yes, you have a right to grieve like bloody hell, Barbara. All of that you laid out for me, the dynamics of that before are over. This guy took that and put a period at the end of that sentence. But also also think about this All these different times you've been alone with him. been doing something with him and slowly realized that may have been sexualized in his through his lens I've seen him look at me before but I never thought about it any other way because I was like you know how sometimes like you're in a crowd and sometimes like you tend to look both the same way sure and then you keep looking sure okay so that has happened before um I didn't think anything of it because again because he was your husband's best friend and he was married to your best friend yes of course so to me it was just like oh you know we happen to look the same way like you know you're talking to people and you feel someone looking at you so you look and then you keep pushing like it doesn't really sure let me just say it this way don't be the second person who hurt your husband in this way you get to choose you get to make the choice you're a grown up but your husband's been betrayed and tremendously hurt by his best friend and by the way the betrayal is not that he thinks his best friend's wife is beautiful or stunning or anything like that it's that he took that extra step and put the moves out and did a soft proposition and that's a huge betrayal don't also then join in that betrayal by through secrecy through deception through just trying to pretend it's going to go away you deserve more than that your husband deserves more than that I hate this happened to you I hate that somebody handed you this grenade with a pin pulled on it because now you got to throw it out the window and people are gonna say like oh man she threw this grenade out the window yeah but somebody pulled the pin and handed it to me I hate that you're in this position but as all of us in any position that somebody just does something to us or hands us something we can't control that but we can control who we are going to be next and that's where you find yourself Barbara you can't control that but we can control who we are going to be next and that's where you find yourself Barbara you can't control that but we can't control who we are going to be next and that's where you find yourself Barbara wish you the absolute best moving forward and if you and your husband want to call me if he wants to call me and say what do I do now I'd love to talk to him man sorry this happened to you everything that was is no more and hopefully people rally around you and are able to stay together and make good choices absent this guy moving forward it's gonna be complex thanks for the call do you ever feel like you get to the end of the holiday season and you realize that you totally missed it between parties parties, school programs, and the pressure to keep everybody happy, we can sometimes forget to take a moment and actually be present with the people we love. This is why I love Hallow's Prayer App and their Advent Challenge. It's an opportunity for me and you to slow down and remember what all of this holiday season is really and truly about. That's why I'm committing to Hallow's Advent Prayer Challenge this year, and I want you to do it with me. This challenge walks through the story of Advent from the Garden of Eden all the way to Bethlehem, and it creates the space to remember the reason we celebrate and to cherish this time. I've used Hallow for years now, and I love it, and it's not a surprise to me that it's the number one prayer app in the world. Just a few minutes a day gives me the kind of reset that I need to get my head and my heart and my spirit right. The Advent Prayer Challenge kicks off November 29th. Get Hallow for free for 90 days using code DELONI. That's hallow.com slash DELONI. All right, let's go out to Rapid City, South Dakota and talk to Anthony. Anthony, what's up, brother? Hey, John. So I have four kids, and we're entering that stage of adulthood to where they're all getting grown. I have a 20-year-old, a 19-year-old, a 17-year-old, and a 15-year-old. Okay. So our 20-year-old, he's almost 21. We had a really rough go in high school. I like a really, really rough go to where, you know, he was skipping school, you know, he was smoking pot. He was, you know, sneaking out at night, the whole nine yards, drinking. It was just horrible. It was probably one of the worst couple of years of, you know, my life in general. Anyway, excuse me. You're good, man. And he didn't graduate high school, which is another big, you know, point. And he got to the point where he turned 18. He hadn't graduated, and he was smoking pot in our house. And we finally just kicked him out. He knew my wife. We kicked him out. He was living, you know, in his car for quite a few months. And that was really hard as well. So it just kind of expounded on that. but I'm like, you can't be in our house. If you can't all these rules, you're an adult now, you know? And so, um, now, I mean, and we still connected with him. We still, we didn't, we didn't like close the door completely. You know, you watch out your life. He was able to come by for food. That's not a problem. There was a time where his car was completely broke down and he just basically slept in our backyard in his car. So we, we, we still help him out every once in a while. And now, I mean, he has an old apartment. He has his own apartment. He, you know, works a really good job. He's doing it all on his own. Every once in a while he'll come home for supper, you know, so we have a decent relationship, but so my third child, my 17 year old, um, he's a junior right now and he's doing some sneakier stuff and it's just, it's bringing me back to that moment of just betrayal that I felt with my oldest. And it's, it's not like my seven year old, he's, he's a little bit different. And so he's doing weird stuff, right? So he, he loves crafting. So what is he doing? He's, he's building pipes right now. Actually his, you know, his cousins and some of his uncles, they smoke from a pipe. You know, he's been the Lord of the Rings, but he's building pipes. I first went to pipe bombs. And so you're, you're talking about like, like smoking pipes, like old man on the front porch pipes. Okay. Correct. Okay. You know, he's decent at it. You know, he's carving them by hand. Yeah. You know, he's able to make the, uh, the thing you breathe through and everything. And he does a really good job, but I mean, my youngest, he's caught him smoking something out of the pipe. When I confronted him, he says, it's tea. I look at it and it is, it's tea. He's smoking mint tea out of pipes, which is, it might be, I mean, is it good? No. Is it, is it really that bad though? I mean, it could lead to something worse. But it's like, it's just a little odd. And he's a sneaky around a little bit with that. But he, I mean, I'm not afraid that he's doing drugs or alcohol. He's not skipping school. He's being responsible in other areas. It's just those sneaky things that, and my seven year old, he just, he doesn't talk to everybody. Yeah. At this point last year, he was 16 and he said he was going to a play and he went to the play just down the street. And then all of a sudden nine 30 rolls around and we're like, where's Jonah? He should be home by now. I checked his, you know, where his phone's at. And it's like 15 miles away. And I go there and I check on the ATM and then I check on the ATM and he grabbed some cash from that gas station. And then I couldn't find him. And so he was gone for like, like three hours. Um, but just out of the blue just left. We didn't, we didn't know what boy, there was nothing that we've seen that was going on. And he calls me about midnight, one midnight, one o'clock after we got the cops involved, we got friends involved. We're trying to find him. And he was three and a half hours away on the interstate. He's like, dad, I'm lost. I don't know where I'm at. So I'm like, okay, turn on your phone. I'll come get you. I picked him up, brought him home. But it's like, he, he, he'll, he'll stop and he'll stop. And then all of a sudden he'll explode, not explode, but just like run, you know? And on, on the road, on the trip back from that time, I mean, once again, one of the scariest moments of my entire life. And on that trip back, he was just like, no dad, I was just gonna, I just needed to get away. I was going to go find a job and I was going to go and live for two weeks on my own. And then come back. And I'm like, dude, that's, that's not reality. It's like, I didn't feel like he was, he wasn't being malicious. It wasn't anything like that. It was just like, I've just had too much. Had enough. Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask you this, brother. Let me, let me, let me hop in here. Let me ask you this. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. Okay. These are questions I would ask to any parent and depending on, on your emotional state, you can hear these as just what I'm hoping they are, which is, is just fact finding questions or you can hear them as accusations. I hope you don't hear them as that. Okay. this is me with you okay you've painted me a picture of your older son you've painted me a picture of your the challenges um your your third son is experiencing um a common theme here is not at like what i would call normal developmental adolescent stuff their desire for autonomy their desire for i want my own little world right that that's that's developmentally normal what what is raising at least one flag in my mind is both of them have learned the importance of keeping things secret at home so my question to you is what is it about is there an ethos of your home that dad is pretty abrupt with this is the way we do things dad's pretty abrupt with judgment or mom um um this idea is dumb this idea is stupid why are you doing like is is that part of it or are they just naturally bent towards sneakiness you get what i'm saying no i know exactly what you're saying and so yes there is absolutely that moment of like i mean supper time can be very miserable um and you know the last thing i want to do i love my wife i really do and and uh she is my wife we just had her 23rd anniversary like this last monday and you know it's going strong and i guess growing up there was lots of anxiety and that sort of thing and it was very much you know you can't do this you can't do that with her and then there was cowardice on my part by not saying anything or standing up confronting some of that stuff does that make sense hundred percent and let me say two things number one like what you what you just said is bravery and vulnerability and pure strength i'm proud of you for saying that okay and number two the only way through that is to be honest and go right through it what do i mean by that it's to take your 21 year old out and say um i should have stepped in there and i didn't i'm sorry um and sitting down with your 17 year old, the thing that I hear lacking. And again, it can be hard if you have an, an unwell partner or a spouse that like, I just going to go along with, I don't want, I don't want to cause more fights for me too. It can be hard, but it sounds like both of the boys you've, you've, you've talked about have a lot of things that they can't do, but there it's not anchored to a, because here's who we are like a set of family value statements. So for instance, I wouldn't recommend any parent on the planet, let their kids smoke weed in the living room. Right. But the different, the, the, the small, subtle yet powerful shift would have been if you had sat down with all four of your kids when they were younger, or as they got to be teenagers and, you and them and your wife, y'all made a, a set of family values. Here's who we are. Let's say you're the Smiths. Here's who the Smiths are. And if your son decided to test the boundaries of those values and smoke weed in your room, I mean, in your living room, it's not you kicking him out. It's you looking at him saying, I'm so sorry that you chose to leave because you can't do that here. And I'm heartbroken. Because this house doesn't work unless all of us are here on the same team. And you opted out by smoking weed here, you chose to leave. And when you chose to leave, you can choose to come back and here's the path you get the it's subtle, but you get to how big of a difference that is. No. And, and, and, you know, at the time it was not that way. And I've had lots of talks with my oldest about that. And we both have said, you know, Hey, uh, even he's the one that wouldn't help me pick up the Jeep that, um, that was left three and a half hours away. And we had to get a conversation even then being like, yeah, dad, I was a knucklehead. Um, and he didn't say those words, but, uh, basically the same thing. And I said, no, I said, I, I should have given you a little more freedom here and there. And, um, so yeah, we had that moment and it's just, and me and my wife were, we're looking back on, um, when they were little and we're just like, oh man, we screwed up here and we screwed up here and we screwed up here. And that's really hard. And it's, it's not just me. It's not just her. It's both of us. It's like, you know what? I really wish we would have done it this way. You know? And it that's, that's hard in and of itself. Yeah. You know, it's just like, ah, but can I challenge you on that? Sure. That can also really paralyze you for making any sort of changes moving forward. If you spend all your time. In retroactive, like running back, what could have like, you can't change any of the stuff that happened. All you can change is what happens right after you get off this call. And so it's good to know, Hey, here's some things we would have done differently and we can't do them differently in the past, but we can start doing them differently right this second. And that might mean we need to go get some new skills. That might mean that we need to go get some. Healing on our own. That might mean that we just have to be uncomfortable for a season or we're practicing new ways of doing things, but we can't the, the, the, our past has a period at the end of that sentence, but we've got a blank page and a pen and we get to write what happens next. And so some of that is grief, right? Like grief, like I can't believe I did this. I would have handled this differently. And some of it is compassion. I didn't know any different, or I was doing the best I could with what I had and what I had wasn't enough back then. Now, in retrospect, great. Great. Great. Great. Great. Great. cool. What am I going to do right now? That becomes the only thing you can do. No, I understand what you're saying. And it's hard to not, and I know this, right? I know it's hard to step away and be at the present. And I don't know, John, it's just. So you have to decide, and this sounds so trite, you have to decide, I want to enter into a season where I start setting that stuff down. The problem I'm running into is, is that whenever, whenever I'm going through that, my, with my third one, it's like, I go back to that moment and it just, it just paralyzes me to the point where I just can't even, I can't even make any choices. It's like, I can't. Yeah, totally. 100%. How old are you right now? I can't get past that. What's that? 45. 45. All right. I want you to sit down this weekend and I want you to write a long letter to 40 year old you. Okay. Dear Anthony, you're about to enter a season of hell. And I want you to talk about the things you could have done differently when the kids were young and the price y'all are about to pay for some of those decisions. Like what you called, like your coward. I want you to call that out. You didn't do this and this and this. And you're about to enter a season of hell with your oldest son. It's going to be really difficult. And you're going to have sleepless nights and weeping nights. And it's going to put a strain on your marriage. It's going to strain on the other three kids. This is coming. And then I want you to end that letter. It can be one page, two page, five pages with, but he ends up getting a job. He ends up getting a job. He ends up starting to slowly turn his life around. And here's the man you're going to become at 45. You're going to be a man who has breakfast with your 21 year old once a week or with your 17 year old once a week. You're going to be a man who looks his children in the eye and say, I messed this up when you're younger. I'm going to do differently now. I'm going to be a man who makes sure my 17 year old, even though he's like, I'm going to hug him every day before he leaves. I'm going to ask him to teach me how to make one of these pipes. I'm going to enter into his weird little world. I'm not going to run from it. I'm not going to force him into secrecy. I want to learn about it. Show me how to do this. Will you teach me how to do this? And through that engagement, through that sort of relationship, through that sort of, oh, dad's on my team. He's entering into my weird world, not dragging me behind his world. And then when questions come up, like, all right, tell me about tea. What does smoking mint do? Is it just like cool to smoke something? Is it feel like I don't, I've never smoked mint before. What is it like? What is, what is this? Like when you see somebody and you know them and they feel celebrated, that buys you permission for the challenge. Like, like the parenting research is all super clear, high accountability and high relational. And if it's all relational and no accountability, kids get off the rails. And if it's all accountability and no relationship, kids get off the rails. Kids are desperate for structure and boundaries and they're desperate for relational attunement, both things. So you can have really high expectations, but they have to be anchored to a relationship that they're they know dad's on my team no matter what. Okay. And so often the outcomes are the same. If you smoke weed in my living room, you can't stay here. But the difference is you didn't find the end of how much, like you can't push me so far that I'm never going to stop loving you. I'm never going to send you out of my presence, but you will choose to leave my presence if you choose to do this. If you choose to hurt one of my kids or my wife or you smoke weed in my living room, you're choosing to leave. Okay. You made me the enforcer, but right. But I think, I think you're 17 year old. I'm hearing that as a young, as a, as a late teen. He's got to sit down with somebody. So we, we just sat down with a counselor. Me and my wife did yesterday. Okay. And to, and he's going to go see that same person. So we just kind of laid the groundwork with him. Great. Yesterday. And then he's going to, he's going to go see him next week. He was very, he was very resistant. Of course. When we talked to him about it, you know, he said, Hey, I, you know, we even told her like, Hey, we didn't do a very good job of teaching you how to open up as parents. And so we're really hoping that this guy can give you that safe environment to talk to. Perfect. And can you go one step further? Go ahead. Can you also circle back to him and say, Hey, we told you that we didn't like, we, we didn't do a good job of teaching you how to open up to people and we're sorry. And also I'm not good at opening up to people either. Or if, if mom is confident enough to say, I'm I've struggled with anxiety my whole life and I'm not good with talking to people about it. And I don't want to see you have the same struggles I had. Cause now you're starting to peel back the parent layer and they're getting to see a fellow human. Yeah. And here's a, it's not a trick. It's, it was my, my rule. If I had met, if I, when I was doing practicum clinical work, like actually sitting with counseling clients and I was going to have like a teenager in, in the state I was getting my degree in that the parent was technically the client, legally the client, even though I was meeting with the team. And so I brought both parents and the teen in and said, all right, here's the deal. Teenager mom and dad are technically the client, which technically means they can look at anything we talk about. And so I want you to know I want mom and dad is like whatever we're going to decide right now, what you guys want me to tell you and what you don't want me to tell you. And then I want y'all to say that in front of your son so that he knows. And so they told me if he's have, I remember one family I met with, if he's having sex, we don't really care about that. We just want to be safe. If he's smoking weed, we don't care. But if he's doing hard drugs, we got to know. So I turned and looked at the teenager and said, you hear, you have a free space to be open, but if you're doing hard drugs and by the way, I would, I, and I told him I would report that to your, you're a child, right? But I want, I, and what I did in that moment was it made mom and dad feel at peace that I was driving as a, as a therapist. And it also gave the kid peace to know I'm not going to tell them everything you tell me. Cause they just said they don't want to know you have a free place to talk in here. And that changed the dynamic dramatically. So when we met with the therapist yesterday, he said that he's legally now that he's not allowed to say anything unless it's really severe about what's going on. Okay. Well, and some of that may have changed in the last six, seven, 10 years since I was doing that. So that's great. Good. Um, and I also say the same thing, Hey, you know, the only impression we're getting from the therapist is with you tell us, you know what I'm saying? Unless there's something that's really major, but, um, so. And I think it's fair that you bring the, all four. I mean, your 21 year olds effectively out on his own as a young adult, bring in your other three or your 17 year old and your 15 year old and you and your wife and say, we're going to make family values. We're going to, we're going to put on, on paper. Um, and son who's 17, who's great at crafts. I want you to make a really elaborate, cool poster of this. And we're going to put it in the living room. This is who we are. The Smiths are people of hospitality. The Smiths are people who fill in the blank. The Smiths are people who treat everybody this way. The Smiths are people who always tell the truth. And that way, when one of your, when your 15 year old does something, he lies to you can say, Hey, that's who that's not who we agreed. We are. And you are choosing the following consequences. You're the parents. You gotta be the enforcer, but that way you're not running up against. You crossed a line to where you can't come back with me. And suddenly they, they are participating. You're the driver, you're the parent, you're the authority. Um, but they get that they're participating in who we are going to be. And they're, they're also going to participate in what accountability looks like and what success looks like. And that can become a really empowering thing. It's teaching them, why we're saying no to things, why we're saying yes to things teaches them how we become who we want to be. And that is to put some anchor points in the ground and say, this is, this is our values. This is our identity. And then they're not wondering is this, is this is making a pipe. Okay. Is giving a pipe to uncle Tom. Okay. Is getting a pipe and smoking mint, but it's benign. It's not really a big deal, but it's still smoking. It's not good for you, but is that okay? Like you take all that off the table and you give some, you give some, some foundation to the seven to a 17 year old to the 15 year old. And brother, if you need to go talk to somebody about your body keeps dragging you back to those long, scary nights. And when you would like, I can't, I can't imagine how hard that was for you to draw that line and to hold firm to your, you and your wife's agreements, like, well, your kid's sleeping in the backyard. Right. Those are, those are long nightmarish nights. And so you being able to process that. So you don't drag that same emotional reactivity onto your, a totally new person, which is your 17 year old. That that's your work to do. And man, I, I highly encourage you to do it. Me doing my own work, change the dynamic of my family. I've gone quite a few times, different times. And we just, we just can't afford more than one person. Sure. So I'll wait till we'll see how it goes. With Jonah and then I have friends that I can talk to you about some of these things too. So it's not just, I have a support system. Me and my wife, we talk and. Okay. So here's the deal. Support system. So. I want you to name what happened and your role in it. And then I want you to be honest about feeling those feelings. That's what the writing exercise is about. It's about naming it, being aware. And it's about feeling those feelings as you're writing. There's research on, on 15 minute journaling sessions for each one. And then I want you to be about action steps. Here's what I'm going to go do. And then the final one is my favorite Kessler quote. You got to go make meaning of it. Here's who we're going to be now, right? Like whether that's teaching a parenting class at your local church, whether that is really re-involving yourself in your kid's lives, whether that is we don't have any money. So instead of going for breakfast, we're going to go for a walk before school. And I know you hate it and I know it's cold, but we're going anyway. I don't know South Dakota, man, you may not be able to do that very long because good God, it's cold. But like, you get what I'm saying? I'm going to, I'm going to re-interject myself into the lifeblood of my kids and my family. But writing that letter, here's the gangster part of it. I want you to read that letter to your wife or to your friend, to a group of friends and say, Hey, I wrote this letter to myself. I'm processing some of the stuff I didn't do like I wanted to some of the stuff I wish I could have back. And I'm becoming honest about who the man I'm going to become as a husband, as a father, as a man who never succumbs to cowardice again, and the little things were the big things I want you. I want to share this letter with you. And it's just a letter to me. This is what's really on my heart and mind. That process of sharing is healing in and of itself. If you're in a safe community. And so writing a letter like reopens, it lets you feel it lets you like begin to metabolize it. And then sharing it, man, that changes everything that gets real, real, real hard and real, real, real free, especially when the, the men you share that with, look at you and hug you and look at the, look at you with tears in their eyes. And they say, yeah, man, us too. Now everybody's carrying everything. And it's awesome. Thanks for call brother. Enter into his wild secret little world. Curiously, not judgmentally, curiously, and be clear about the boundaries you're holding and why, and do that as a family. It can transform everything in your home. Thanks for calling brother. We'll be right back. It's holiday shopping season, AKA a spammer and scammers favorite time of the year. Look every time you sign up for a promo code or drop your email for 10% off, some waffle maker shaped like Santa Claus. You're not just handing your information to that store. Data brokers are grabbing up your email, your phone number, your address, and they're selling it to any shady character out there. This is why your phone blows up with fake spam, spam calls and fake "you've got package" texts all the time during the holiday seasons. A good deal should not cost you your privacy. This is why I use Delete Me. They find your personal information on all these data broker sites and they take it down. And not just once, every single time it pops back up because they keep checking for you month after month. Listen, I want my personal data to be as invisible as possible online. And the fewer people who have it, the fewer spams and scams landing on my phone and in my email box. So don't give up your privacy this holiday season. You can relax when you're shopping online knowing Delete Me's got your back. Get 20% off any plan by going to joindeleteme.com slash Deloney or use the link in the description. That's joindeleteme.com slash Deloney. All right, so we're back. Hey, listen, I gotta tell you about this thing. I'm super excited. The marriage kit. This is, listen, number one, this is you and your spouse putting your phones down, right? And this is me walking with you with a real product for a year. Me teaching you every month. Here's what y'all need to be thinking about. Here's some challenges for you. Here's some conversations to have. Here are some fun things y'all can do together. And man, I pull this thing apart with, here's a guide to the weekly, I mean, to the annual retreat that me and my wife take. It's got its own dedicated questions for humans. And it's even got a break in case of emergency envelope that you can tear and you can open up and this is, it will go to a QR code of me walking you through. Here's what to do next. If your marriage, if your life is hit by a, you know, the proverbial hurricane, right? Here's the deal. I only made a couple of thousand of these things. A hundred percent, they will sell out and they'll sell out fast. They're 84.99, like just under 85 bucks, or just 85 bucks, come on. And so it's about the cup. It's about the cost of one fancy cup of coffee per month for me to sell out. It's about the cost of one fancy cup of coffee per month for me to sit with you and your spouse the entire year. To just walk alongside y'all is y'all day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year, build the marriage you want. Go to johndeloney.com or click the link in the show notes. It'll take you right to this. Get them before they're gone. I'm so, so proud of this marriage kit. Go check it out, johndeloney.com.