Caller: “Is It Time to Leave My Wife?”

[MUSIC] >> Brought to you by my friends at Churchill Mortgage. If you're looking to buy or refinance, check them out. I've used Churchill and they are great. Go to ChurchillMortgage.com. >> I tried reading the book, taking her to marriage counseling, dating her more, and then now two years later, here we are in counseling again. And now the third time that I've asked for a divorce, but I can't seem to get myself to fall through with it. [MUSIC] >> What's going on? What's going on? This is John of the Dr. John Delone Show, so glad you're with us. Here's my goal, man. My goal is for you to pull up a seat, whatever's going on in your life, and in the lives of those around you. Whether it's your mental and emotional health, your relationships, your marriages, your relationship with your kids. I think deeply connected relationships start the healing process that all of us need individually and collectively. And so pull up a seat and we'll figure out what's the next right move. I'd love to have you on the show. If you want to be on click, the link in the show notes and we'll get you in. This roll out to Los Angeles, California, and talk to Tyler. Hey, Tyler, what's up, man? >> Hey, how's it going? I'm good brother, how are you, man? >> I'm all right, well, I'm nervous, but I'm all right. >> You're good, I'm glad you're here, man. What's up? >> I'm just really trying to figure out if it's time to really end my marriage. I've been married about seven years together for ten. This is now the third time that I've asked for a divorce. And I just feel like it's time to leave, but I can't seem to get myself to fall through with it. >> Well, thanks for calling, man. As you're sitting down, the thing back to the first, the second, and now the third time you've told your spouse, you want a divorce. What precipitated that? What was the thing that happened or the context around you saying, "I'm out?" >> So I was a foster kid growing up and so I know I struggled with some abandonment issues, and so I think, honestly, that we kind of got together when I had those self-esteem, those self-worths, and I took any love I could get. And what I realized after my son was born, which was about four or five, four and a half years ago, that I realized that unconditional love does exist. And that was kind of the first time where I was like, I'm tired of putting up with just being the little, treated poorly, et cetera. And then that was the first time, and then the second time was two years after he was born. And I was like, "Hey, I know you're struggling, but time will give you a year to figure it out." It seemed like it got better, but I think I was just imagining it. And then the third time was about three months ago. And I've been communicating with her over the years and talking to her and telling her like, "I feel miserable. I feel unhappy." And I've tried reading the books, taking her to marriage counseling, dating her more, you know, I stole the line that you used, "How can I love you today?" You know, I did everything I could think of, and you know, when you're sitting in marriage counseling two years ago, and the counselor's like, "Hey, you have to work on yourself," and she was telling my wife, because my wife troubles of being vulnerable with me, with being honest with me and that kind of stuff. And then now two years later, here we are, in counseling again, and kind of the same things happening. And you know, she started, the reason I didn't follow through with it the third time was she showed a lot of remorse. And so I was like, "Okay, maybe this time's different, but we've been doing that song and dance for years now, and I've just been really struggling to kind of follow through with it, and it's like, I want to have hope, but I keep getting reminded of all the hurt she's put me through over the years." So give me some examples of, and be as specific as you can. What are some things she's done to you? So I just feel like I was, do me a favor, do me a favor. Back out of you've mentioned the word feeling a lot, and that's important, but I want you to be specific with the things that have happened. So give me some examples of ways she's, she has made, I'm trying to use your words carefully, and not pull them out of context, but how has she made you less than yourself? I told her that I felt invisible that I was hurting. Okay. What does that mean? What does that mean? You feel invisible. What does that mean? She walks by you and spends all the time on her phone. She ignores you. You say, "Hey, I would love to go on a date and she goes your stupid." What do you mean you feel invisible? I would ask to see if she wanted to hang out in the evening, and she would not be interested. She would find her find a way to go to bed, but then the night to that, I would go to bed early. She would stay up late. She was constantly going to sleep anytime that we could spend together. She would go to the stores. She would just find all these reasonings to not spend time with me. Okay. And when I asked her, "Hey, do you not like hanging out with me?" and she just said, "No, it feels like a lecture or an argument every time." Okay. So pause there. Is there truth to that? There is some truth to that. Okay. So if every time you'll sit, "Yeah, I'll get together." It feels like a lecture. It feels like you're trying to dig. It feels like you're trying to grab on to, as a guy who said, "It's struggles with abandonment issues, which I do too." Is every interaction? Do you still like me? Are you searching for something external that might need to be filled internally? Is that you get what I'm saying? I do. I do. And I don't think it's that I'm going to be more, I'm super mindful of how she's feeling. And so when we would spend time together, I just try to keep it light-hearted, show her funny videos or just ask her about her day, stuff like that. Just try to have conversations. And she tended to not reciprocate. And I had expressed those concerns over the years and just kind of told her, "I feel like, I mean, I knew you could say it was my feel." But I just like, "I feel like you're not wanting to be around me." And I've always kind of felt that I was just convenient for her. What did she say when you're getting that up? It was more, I would tell her how I was feeling, and she would just say like, "I know." And then kind of leave it at that. And so even when I brought up the divorce this last time, she told me that she thought she had more time and that she thought I would figure it out myself. So I haven't really had a partner. I've had more feel like somebody that I'm supposed to manage, because when I do bring up concerns and things that bother me, I'm met with anger and hostility. And she has this way of flipping the conversation to where I'm now defending myself or something that upset her as she never brought up. And I have no problem discussing like, "Hey, this bothered you. Let me help you. Let me figure this out. Let's figure this out together." If that's what we're supposed to be. But then now I'm more spending time trying to work through whatever it is bothering her, and my concerns get ignored and rushed aside, because her mindset is very much avoid and hopefully it goes away. Okay. Tell me what divorcing her will get you. Honestly, I feel like it would just give me like a breath, like I'd be able to breathe, like I feel suffocated. I, when she's anxious, the house is very like on the edge, like you can't, like I feel like I can't speak, because anything can set her off. She struggles with anger. You know, she goes 0 to 100. Every issue is blown out of proportion, simple things are becoming issues. She gets overwhelmed. She has a lot of anxiety, and I've tried helping her throughout the years with that, you know, either by just offering support or just giving her space to work on it, you know, tried many different things, and it just feels like no matter what I do, anything can set her off, and I'm just tired of feeling anxious at home, and I'm worried that it's going to affect my son. I imagine it already is. I've noticed that the nights that her and I have an argument, we do our best to not do it in front of him, but a lot of the times it can be up in front of him. He ends up waiting the bed at night, and just I don't want him to be affected by that, and I feel like I'm failing him as a father right now, because I can see how bad things can be sometimes. Give me an example of how bad things get. I can't, I can't, let me be honest with you, I can't tell if you are minimizing what's actually. going on in your home? Are y'all screaming and yelling and is your wife smashing stuff? Or yelling from time to time. There was the other day we were supposed to go to a kid's birthday party and she got upset because I told her the wrong time. It was at 12 30 not 12 like I told her so as we were leaving she was upset and I tried to set a boundary of like hey if you're going to be rude to me I'm not going to go and she's just said okay well then give me the keys and also loses my car and she gets out of the car comes around and I sat down in the driver's seat because I didn't want her to take my car and she sat on top of me and then she elbowed me in the chest and my son in the back seat in the car seat. And so I'm not giving her a pass on this if she was on my phone I mean if she was on the phone with me I would tell her it's a very childish way to handle that. How often does she hit you? This was the first time in 3 years. She's hit me a few times back when we lived in our apartment early on in the relationship. She's spitting my face a couple times for a few years since. None of that is okay. I know and one of the things that I told myself was that it sure hit me again and then she hit me again and just turned me up and tied to like I was going to go and I'm like stocked because I don't know why I just can't care about myself enough to just be like hey I don't really because I don't think she's a bad person. Yeah I think it's bigger than caring for yourself. I think that's I think honoring yourself with dignity and respect is important. And also you love this woman. And you treat her with dignity and respect even when she makes it really hard and you'll have a child together. And I don't know if you've sat there with your eyes closed and just thought about that breath you take in your home in your apartment where you'll be living. You can walk home and drop your stuff and know what you're going to get and she won't be there and your son won't be there. And after a few days or a few weeks it'll get real quiet. So it's all of it all the same time. When both of the different therapists have looked at her and said she's got to do some work on her. Because the marriage is two people inside of the secret world that you'll create together. But two people have to do their own work outside of that secret world so they can come in this thing together. And you cannot you can make a context where healing is possible. But you can't make her less anxious. She has to decide I'm going to go work on that. You can't make her less angry. Of course you can set her off. But because you know her you know the buttons to push. That's what marriage is, right? You my buddy Jefferson Fisher said like you give each other the nuclear code. You just hope the other person doesn't set them off, right? But you can't make her go deal with her anger. She has to look at herself and say I'm worth quelling this nuclear reactor in the middle of my chest. And I love this man and I love my marriage and I love myself and I love my son enough to do this. But you can't make her do that stuff. And so if two therapists have said hey you've got to go do some work on yourself and she just said no. Or I'm going to white knuckle it, right? I'm just going to grab on tight and hang on. Yeah, you found yourself doing a rock in a hard place here. I hear a man that doesn't want to get divorced. But I hear a man who wants to stop hurting too. Yeah. And that's where I'm stuck. It's like two years ago she was told this in two years. She didn't really take it serious. And then it wasn't until I finally just sat her down and was like I want to divorce. But she was like I'm going to change. I'm going to do it and slowly go out of the thing she's been doing have kind of fallen away. And we're seeing the couples counselor and she's giving us homework every week and my wife's not doing the homework. And I could be the one that reminds her and whatnot at the same time. I'm like I was done. I just wanted you to fight for me. There you go. Just order me enough. Yeah. If you're like I'm not and it feels like I feel like I've been fighting the fight for so long and I'm tired. Yeah. Are you still seeing the counselor? Yeah, we have an appointment tonight. Okay. If you're done, if you're out. And by the way, the third time you throw the first time you throw divorce on the table and you don't pull a trigger on it, it becomes it increasingly becomes an empty threat. Right. And so if you're actually done, done, I'm out. There is no redemption here. There's no path back. Now I want us to work on being adults and co-parent co-parenting situation with our son. Which by the way, if you have a mother of your child who has violent rages, then that's not something you can shake hands and walk away with because your son's going to become the beneficiary of that kind of madness too. I know. Right. And so it may be looking at her and saying, I want full custody. Because I don't trust your anger. I don't trust your violent outrageous right now. Which is a hard conversation, but that's the reality you may find yourself in. If I'm overstating it, then that's okay. Right. If there is a path back, what has to happen today is here's what must be true over the next three weeks. You will see a mental health professional to work on yourself. And you will do these homework assignments. You will be in your own therapy. You'll begin working on your anger and you'll be in an anger management program. You get to you say here's the path to walk. And if you don't like, so I'm saying so it's not a amorphous, you need to work on yourself or you just need to do better around here or I need you to meet my needs, that kind of stuff. Which is really kind of Instagrammy kind of amorphous. He's right. This is you saying here is the only clear path you can walk if you want to keep this marriage. Okay. And you get to decide what your will in the tolerate and what you're not willing to tolerate. And I want to be honest with you both paths ahead of you are very hard. Divorce while it will feel like a relief will be very hard. Emotionally, like financially, like with parenting like it will be hard and staying in this relationship and trying to be some sort of sturdy anchor while your partner chooses to heal if that's the choice she makes. That will be hard to what I want to leave this call with is this. I want you to be super clear about what you're asking for of your wife tonight. In couples counseling, I want you right in the form of a letter. And when you all sit down, I want you to look at the therapist and say, I've written a letter that I like to read to my wife. And your therapist should let you go first. And if your wife has not done her homework for the second, third, fourth or however many weeks in her row, put that into the letter. Or if tonight is the night, you say, this is final and it's going to be painful, but I'm out of this marriage. You can't hit me anymore, especially not in front of our kid. The violence is where I draw the line. Then have the courage to write that out and you be very clear. You show up as the person you want to be. I'm going to be a person who tells the truth. I'm going to be a person who feels the pain of the situation and walks it well, even though it's hard. And then we're going to talk about next steps for co-parenting and how we're going to approach separating after a decade together. All of that will be painful. But it sounds like you've been doing a lot of right, next-hard things, trying to love somebody well. And it sounds like, man, I have a nagging suspicion. She loves you too, man. She's trying, but she won't look in the mirror and say, I'm worth feeling and doing life different, feeling better and doing life differently. And you can't make her do that, which is the heartbreak of loving somebody. Only she can decide, I'm going to deal with this anger, I'm going to do this rage. I'm going to be honest with you about what I like and don't like about how we interact or our friendship or whatever. Clear is kind, my brother. You're a good man. Thanks for the call. I would, man, it'd be an honor if you call back and let me know how this conversation goes tonight. And if she wants to call and talk on the phone, both of you, I want to call. I'd love to have you both. But we may be past that. The last thing I'll say to you before I let you go, let's don't threaten divorce anymore. If the marriage is over, then have the courage to say the marriage is over. Don't use it as a hook, as a bigger threat to get her to do something that she doesn't know how to do or doesn't want to do. Give me a call back after this evening. Thanks for calling my man. We come back, a man asks, should he continue to cut off his terminally ill, abusive father, or should he reconnect? We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHealth. All right, so my friends at BetterHealth just released their annual state of stigma report. It's full of all sorts of data about mental and emotional health and it also looks at why people avoid getting help for their mental health. Here's a data point that stood out to me. More than three out of four Americans reported anxiety or depression symptoms in the last two weeks. If that's you and you're carrying stress, anxiety, or depression, or symptoms of those things, just talking with someone can help more than you realize. I want you to reach out to BetterHealth. BetterHealth is an online therapy platform that matches you with one of their 30,000 plus licensed therapists based on your goals and your preferences. It's easy and it's super convenient. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions right in the platform. And if the first therapist you're matched with isn't the right fit, you can switch at any time for no extra cost. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. If you're struggling, reach out. Visit BetterHealth.com/delony and get 10% off. That's BetterHealth, H-E-L-P.com/delony. All right, let's go out to Des Moines Island, talk to Aden. Hey Aden, what's up, man? - Hey, Dr. John, what's good? - What's up, man? - So my question is, should I reestablish contact with my terminally ill father? - Tell me about it, man. - Yeah, man, I don't really know where to start. So he was very abusive when I grew up. And-- - What does that mean? - What does that mean? - Oh, I mean, I can go into specifics if you want. I'm not shy about it. - No, give me as much as you feel comfortable with and give me a overarching context. I don't need blood and guts, but was you physically abusive, sexually abusive, emotionally, like, tell me about what, when you say he was abusive, what does that mean? - Yeah, dude, no problem. So physically abusive, also very emotionally abusive, kind of once my parents divorced and once that happened, the physical abuse stopped, but there was a whole, like, I'm gonna get my kids on my side and try to get them to not love their mom anymore. You know, like, I feel like that sort of thing happens to a lot of kids who have divorced parents. But, yeah, so that happened and also just a lot of the ideas that he tried to teach us. I think me and my siblings, I think really were just abusive. I don't know if you've seen, like, shiny, happy people, but he got us involved with that when we were really young and a lot of that was really hard to-- - On one. - Yeah. Tell me about the physical abuse. Was he an avid spanker or would he hit you in the mouth? Like, what? Tell me about physical abuse. - Definitely a lot of spanking that would get, like, unnecessarily brutal. - Yeah. - One of my earliest memories was being spanked and then I think I was maybe, like, four years old and being told to, like, recite Bible verse and when I wouldn't get it right, I would get spanked again and just kind of rinse and repeat and I went on for a long time. So, yeah, like, stuff like that and there was more than that, too. Yeah, I won't speak for my siblings. Like, stuff different than spanking happened to them. For me, it was mostly, like, really brutal. Yeah, hitting with, like, various objects. - So, guys, tell you, man, I'm sorry, that happened. - It's all right, thanks, man. - It's not. It's not. It's nothing about that sort of thing. - For sure. Yeah, it's not all right, but you know what I mean, like, yeah, thank you. - Yeah, and the co-mingling of violence and scripture and your parents' divorce, that's a mess inside your chest, huh? - Thankfully, I've done a lot of work to, to like deal with it and I think I've come to a pretty, like, healthy place in my life about it. Like, I think I've come to a place where, like, acceptance of a lot of things that have happened, it comes a lot more easily to me now. But, yeah. - Do you have any kids now? Sorry, what's up? Do you have your own kids now? - I don't. - Okay. - Are you married now? - I am married. - Okay. How's that going? How are you doing life differently? - I mean, I feel like this might sound spiteful, but because of the abuse of household I grew up in, my life's philosophy has been to do the exact opposite of everything my dad did. And it's worked out really well, like, yeah. That's not spiteful at all. That's just you using the roadmaps in front of you. Like, hey, I went down that road and it was awful. I'm a good on that one. Now, that's why, that's wisdom, brother. That's not spiteful. If you do, if you're like, I'm gonna do something nice to my wife tonight and that'll show you dad, that's spiteful, that's done. That's using your wife to try to hit your dad, right? - Oh, no, no, that's not what I'm not at all. Otherwise, you're just being wise, that's awesome. - Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, my wife is amazing. She's my entire world, dude. And like, I can't imagine being abusive to my wife. Like, those the actions he took just do not make sense intrinsically to me. Like, I just by living authentically, I'm really proud of the life I've built for myself. - Excellent. I'm proud of you, too. I'm proud of you. - This is how the self-family trees change, my man. - Yeah, yeah, I think so, too. I'm really proud that I feel like I've ended that cycle like full of my part and my family line. - Dude, I'm proud of you. So what's happened recently that precipitated this call? - So when I cut my dad off, I should probably tell you how that happened. It wasn't just like I just decided to stop talking to him. We had a sit down, man. I invited him to dinner and I just laid it out clear as day. I was like, hey, like these things happened. And if you want a relationship with me, like, I need some level of acknowledgement that it did happen. And I just, I like, I need an apology for starters. And that was too hard. (laughs) So I'll. - Hold on, hold on. What do you mean, that's too hard? I looked at you and said no. - No, but basically first there was a lot of denial. Like, oh, that didn't happen. And then there was blatant, like four-year-old me was the issue, you know? Which is all ridiculous, you know? So the conversation just did not go well. I gave him a second meetup. I was like, okay, stop. You need to think about this. Let's meet up again later once you got time and resume second meetup went just as bad. So that was it. And since then, I've gotten married at a house now. So like, and I've left him out of it. Also, like, not just to protect my peace, but he's not a safe person around women. Like, I don't want him around my wife if he hasn't changed. So yeah, I mean, that's where we're at. - And. - Just so you know, just so you know that conversation, I know of personally and also know more broadly that those type of conversations have also been incredibly healing. - I think so too, man. I think I have a lot more peace about it because I did that. - No, no, yeah, you handled it in a right immature way. And what I say about healing is like, I know of situations where dads who did not handle childhood well, sob and weep and say, I'm so sorry, do you forgive me? - Yeah. - They were one way 25 or 30 years ago and they're very different now. And it's an earned new relationship and new trust that happens over time, right? But that's not what you got. And. - Yeah, unfortunately. - Yeah, I mean, it breaks my heart that that's not what you got, but it also, like you said, it allows you to look in the mirror and say, I showed up as the man I want to be, which is a man of forgiveness, a man of boundaries, a man of who's seeking relationship, But here's what needs to happen for this relationship. I wanted to be. that guy and that's the guy you were. And you're also a guy that keeps his word to himself, which is honorable. Thanks, dude. All right, so your dad is, he's terminally ill, is he dying? Uh, I don't know how much longer he has left, man. So the information that I got is that he has been diagnosed with multiple forms of cancer and they're not trying to remove it. And he's had pneumonia twice in the last six months. Oh, okay. I mean, that doesn't sound good to me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that can mean any range of things, but those are some data points to say that the end is near. Yeah. Yeah, for real. So he's never been very health conscious either. Sure. Was very sedentary. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, I mean, I, yeah, I think the end is near, man. So what are you gonna do? So, uh, when I first got that info, it was, uh, I'm sure you've seen people do this, but it was given to me in a way that made me feel like my dad was trying, you know, like using a family member to try to contact me and like make me feel like I should go see him. Like, I mean, I've caught him off and everything. I, he doesn't know where I live. Sure. He doesn't have my phone number. So, uh, but a family member got in touch with you and said, Hey, Dad, wanted me to let you know that he's dying of cancer. I'm more or less. Yeah. All right. One thing, uh, as you move forward and you continue in, by the way, is going to sound nuts. Not everybody, but the vast majority of folks. If your father was to pass away today, it'll be devastating all over again. There, there's a fantasy that you'll go, ah, and it won't be like that generally speaking. Sometimes it is. Sometimes we don't really expect that. I'll have any sort of relief. Okay. But, but it catches people off guard and they start filling in stories as to I should have, I, oh my gosh, I just expect it will be hard because none of this is the way it should be. For sure. Dads, all dads, all moms, all parents do things when they're doing the, either the best they can or they're following bad advice or whatever's happening when they're kid, when they have kids, period, not to the extent of what you experienced, but it always, in my opinion, is the adults responsibility to circle back and make things right and hold with their kids. And that doesn't happen for you. That's the way it should happen. And. I had kids and I was in a position where my kid like cut me off after having that sort of conversation. Like I would, I feel like I would stop at nothing. Exactly. I mean, families should mean that much to try to change, like try to address it, you know, I agree. And that's, that's not the world we live in right now. And that's, it breaks my heart. But here we are, right? So bring me to right now. What are you going to do? You're going to call him. You're going to write him a letter. You're going to just let him go in peace. All you can control here is you. Yeah. How do you show up in this situation as the man you want to be? I've thought a lot about it. I've talked to my wife and other family members a lot about it. And I think as more time goes on, I am coming to what's the point? Like I just, I'm not sure that it would benefit anybody to try to like reestablish any sort of connection. I don't trust that on his, I left before he goes to his deathbed, he suddenly going to make huge changes. Sure. Especially given like how I've been told about this, you know, like I just, I don't think it's going to be anything different. I don't see. So here's what I want, here's what I want to ask you to do. Okay. Yeah, it's up. I want you to in no way, not to your wife, not to family members, not to friends. I don't want you to outsource this decision to anybody. Okay. I want you to take full ownership of what you do next. And that way, if he passes away and you are just hit with the tsunami of regret, you can look in the mirror and say, I messed this one up. Or if you are hit with a tsunami of peace, you can say, I did the next right thing as I knew it. But I want you to be able to, I don't want you looking to your right and left and say, why didn't you and you all should have, because that complicates this gnarly, messy grief. That's kind of been a haze over your whole life. Yeah, man. Right. So take full ownership of, no, I've thought through it. The man I want to be is a man who shows up with integrity. And I said my piece and I put a period into that sentence. And I'm a man who keeps my promises to myself. And I'm a man who doesn't engage in futile, like whatever words you want to say about yourself, I'm going to take full ownership of my identity. I'm going to back it up with action. This is who I am. And I'm going to take full ownership of that. And that way, you have to own both sides or they won't be, it won't be, it won't be bifurcated in that way. It'll be messy. But I'm going to own all of it. I'm going to own it all. And I'll learn from whatever happens here. I really like that. You're a good man, dude. You were working hard to make sure this never happens again. I'm proud of you, brother. And thanks for wrestling with hard things and not being reactive through your whole life. I know it's exhausting. And it takes a lot of work. And you're putting that work in. This is how communities and families and homes will change. I'm sorry, this all happened to you, brother. We come back. A man asks how he can become more approachable. We'll be right back. It all started with the Cozier towels. These amazing super awesome towels. And then I got a Cozier earth comforter. And then I got a bunch of Cozier blankets. And then I got Cozier socks. And now I got Cozier earth in every nook and cranny of my house. I recently got a pair of the Cozier earth everywhere pants. They are incredible. Like all Cozier gear is. And we got to talk about those Cozier earth sheets. Listen, these are not normal sheets. They're made from this coast from bamboo. And they're super comfortable and they're soft and they're breathable. They're just amazing sheets. Cozier sheets help me sleep better. Listen, here's the deal. Cozier earth gives you a hundred night sleep trial on all of their bedding and a 10 year warranty on everything else. So there's no risk. You can try Cozier earth for yourself. Go to Cozier earth dot com slash Deloney and use code Deloney. And you'll save up to 20 percent off your entire order. That's Cozier earth dot com slash Deloney, use code Deloney. And if you get a post purchase survey, told Cozier earth, you heard about their amazing gear right here on this show. All right, Saint Charles, Missouri. Let's talk to Nick. Hey, Nick, what's up? What's good, Dr. John? How are you? I'm good, my man. What's going on with you? Not much. I figured I'd call you. I had a question. Just about how I could be more approachable to people. Tell me about it. That's an interesting question. I love it. What's up? I just think for for a long time, I've had people make comments that I just come off very standoffish. Like I'm hard to read. I've had people, you know, tell me, you know, I never know what you're thinking or I've had people tell me that I've got I always look like I'm on a bad mood like my face just, you know, that. And I think it's affected just friendships, relationships, just how I interact with people. When people tell you that, are you surprised or do you think, yeah, I can see that. I think maybe the first time I was probably taking off guard, but I think, you know, the more and more I I've had people tell me that I think it makes sense like I can kind of start looking back and putting, you know, connecting the dots and saying, yeah, I probably do come off like that. The people think you are scary. Do they think you're a jerk? Do they think you're just on the spectrum? Like what's the thing beneath the thing, right? Yeah. I don't know if I hope they don't think I'm scary because like there's there's people like like I let me put it this way. I've talked to women who were interested in a dating prospect. And I've heard them use the words, I don't know what he's thinking. I can't read him. And sometimes that's mysterious and sexy. And sometimes that's scary. It's off-putting. I can't identify it. You know what I'm saying? So when people say those things about you underneath it, what do you think they're feeling when they're in your presence? That's hard. I mean, I don't, I would probably lean more to this product scary part honestly. I don't think it's how you described it as mysterious or I don't know, I would probably, because I know, it might be some like social awkwardness or, you know, anxiety, social anxiety that goes along with it, but it's getting into, it's hard to have conversations and interact with people. I feel like. Oh, okay. So tell me about that. Do you get nervous around folks or are you just comfortable in your own skin? Because here's what I don't want to have happen. If you look in the mirror and you like you and you like being around people and like, I don't want you suddenly looking in the mirror and thinking, oh, God, there's something wrong with me. But if people that you trust in your environment are calling out a thing that deep down you know and that you would like to be different. So let me give you a good example. I'm an intense guy. I always have stuff going on in my head. I walk past people sometime without paying attention. Like, I'm always up in my head somewhere. And I'm also, I'm intense and I'm a luke. And so two years ago at my annual retreat, I came up with the word that I, my word of the year. And it surprised everyone who knew me. The word was delightful. I wanted when I walked in the room, people to smile and to drop their shoulders. Oh, dude, John's here. Not buckle up. Here he is. Right. And so I had to be intentional on what would have to, what would I have to do different with my presence so that people were warm and receptive when I walked in and they didn't grab the desk and go, all right, dude, here comes the roller coaster. And sometimes roller coasters are awesome and fun and you don't know where they're going to go. And sometimes, dude, it's just Tuesday morning at 8 a.m. Can we just get to this meeting, right? And so I, but it was an intentional thing, but I knew that. So where do you fall on that? Do you, do you just kind of love being you and your own skin? And maybe you need to find the job where there's not a ton of social interaction or do you know, I've, I've got some social anxiousness. I want to be more warm. I want to be more joyful. I want to laugh some more and I struggle to get there. Yeah, I think. I think it's because after a while, once I get, I get, I guess I get more comfortable with people. It's different. The first initial couple of times of meeting people at work, it's different. I don't have that kind of issue, I guess. I, maybe it's part of just how long I've been with my, had my job. I know pretty much everybody. And I'm also, I work in the trade. So there was a different way of communicating, I guess, interacting with guys on the job. I want more, want direct and you can't always talk to people or talk with people like that. But I think after, um, after a while, I went, I guess I get more comfortable with losing up. It's different. I don't have that issue. I guess it's just the initial, so it prevents new, new relationships and you're, um, I don't know if that makes sense. It totally makes sense, completely, um, an interesting question you might ask some of the people that you trust, some co-workers you've been with for years that you, like you trust them, um, ask them, hey, did I come off, do I come off a standoffice around, or when y'all first met me? I know, yeah, they've made the comment, I mean, they're part of the, some of the people that have made that comment. They brought it up. Okay. Okay. I want this to be different because if, because if you do, it's a matter of choosing, especially for a short period of time, discomfort. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to choose to remind my, I'm going to practice when I see somebody, it's, I'm going to go through a three step process. I'm going to exhale. I'm going to drop my shoulders and I'm going to smile. And then the fourth thing is, hey, my name is, my name is Nick. What's your name? And that might feel so stiff and so awkward and so uncomfortable, but I'm going to practice that until it becomes just an automatic default setting, like shooting a bow and arrow, like fixing an air conditioner. The first time you're counting, okay, first, add the copper to this fitting and then turn on the torch and then sweat it. Now you do it with all without thinking. If you want to do that, yeah, right. I realized, as a personal value, that most people of most of the time are exhausted and burned out and adding my, like particular personality brand of chaos to that made them more on edge after they're with me than before. And I wanted people to be more peaceful after they met me than before. And so I'm continuing to work on that, but it's, I had to get intentional about doing different things. It's natural. I feel the natural doing, yeah, but I'll tell you, it's been worth the effort on the back end. So what do you think? Yeah, definitely something I want to, definitely something I want to change. Just like you said, I guess it's uncomfortable a lot of times. It will be, if you find yourself lonely, if you're find yourself at home and your apartment by yourself and you're wishing you had some friends around, you wish people would call you and ask you for drinks. If you had a girlfriend or not something like that, hey, you can go first and you can ask the guys after work, hey, let's all go out. You can go first and say, hey, I'm joining a softball league and I don't even know how to play, I'm going to be terrible, but you're playing with me. You can choose to say, hey, we're all going bowling, let's go. Bring your girlfriends and tell them to bring one of their friends to. You can take that awkward first step and just, I mean, you're just putting yourself out there uncomfortable, right? And then I can practice breathing, I can practice smiling with my eyes instead of my mouth, like a serial killer is only smiling with their mouths, right? I'm going to smile with my eyes, I'm going to drop my shoulders, I'm going to put my hand out, I'm going to introduce myself, I'm just going to stand here and lurk in the corner. I mean, you can go through that process and say, okay, I want to do this differently and I'm just willing to go through the discomfort and the potential rejection and the potential awkward until it becomes natural, becomes my first impulse. It's just going to take practice. But I guess I don't want you doing this because you think something's wrong with you or something's broken within you. If you want your relationships to be different and if you want to feel just different around people and you do have that social angst when you're suddenly putting a front of a group of people or you're with new people and you just feel that tightness in your chest and just your body's like, disappear, disappear, disappear, if you want that to be different, then man, go sit down with a counselor in your local area and just say, hey, I want to start practicing this and work through it. Bro, on the other end of that, it's just called exposure, the nerd term exposure therapy. But on the other end of that, man, you just find some freedom at the grocery store, at the gas station at work with friends at a bowling alley. And personally, I like that, but not everybody does. Does that sound enticing or does that sound exhausting? Yeah, it does. The awkwardness is going to lead you to a world that you want, I say go for it. But go for it not in, there's something wrong with me and so what I get is I have to go be uncomfortable in front of people because you'll get tired of that quick. If it is not, dude, I'm a great guy and I want some great friends and I'm worth hanging out with. And so are they. And so I'm going to start doing stuff that are it's different, man. You'll do that for the rest of your life because you're doing it for yourself, not against yourself. You get the difference. Yeah. I think so. Okay. Dude, it sounds like you're in, man. Yeah. When's the last time you invited a group of guys out just to go grab a drink after work? I don't know if there has been a time tonight, today we're doing it today, cool. Yeah, I can do that. All right, maybe not today, but this week we're doing it, we're starting and they're going to be like, what? What? Nick? And you're like, yep, we're going to hang out. And we're going to play darts or something. We're going to do something. We're just going to sit there and stare at each other. We're going to do a thing. And then I want you to lob the first joke, nice hat, Tom, nice shoes, Mike, lob the first. I'm in and then they may look at you like, whoa, what happened to Nick? You can just say, new your new me, bro. Don't say that. They'll give you a hard time for that. But yeah, I mean, coming from a place of deficiency is a recipe for burnout. Coming from a place of, "I'm worth this." This is gonna be uncomfortable, it's awkward, but I wanna be have people around me, so I'm gonna practice being approachable, and I'm not gonna be afraid to ask, "Hey, what makes me unapproachable?" Well, you're, okay, cool, I'm gonna smile, or whatever the thing is, I'm gonna begin practicing those things. Similar to how I want to be less electric and chaotic, and be more delightful. I got a long way to go, but man, the journey's been fun. Thanks for calling Nick. We'll be right back. Hey, it's Salone for Joy and Blokes. I'm super excited to have Joy and Blokes as a new partner on this show. The modern healthcare environment tells us to focus on symptoms, what feels wrong, and that makes sense, but staying on the surface of what feels wrong and focusing on how you feel all the time never gets to the root challenges of what you're facing. I've had blood work done by all the major platforms, and Joy and Blokes is incredible. They start you with a comprehensive blood test that gives you real data about what's going on underneath your feelings, what's actually going on in your body, but it doesn't in there. A comprehensive blood panel doesn't mean much unless you can talk to someone who can walk you through it and tell you what it means and what you can do to start living better. Joy and Blokes pairs you with a clinician who reviews your results, helps you create a personalized plan and helps you take action. Whether the answer is a few lifestyle changes or a more comprehensive treatment plan, everything can be prescribed and managed through Joy and Blokes. Joy and Blokes is for women and men who want to be proactive with their health and get underneath their feelings and find out just how their body is operating. Go to Joy and Blokes dot com slash Deloney and get 50% off all labs and 20% off all products. That's J-O-I and B-L-O-K-E-S. Joy and Blokes dot com slash Deloney. All right, what's up, Kelly? All right, I got an email from a listener and I thought this was pretty great and wanted to read it. Okay. So this is from Esther in Florida and she writes, "Dear Dr. John, I'm writing this note to you knowing that I will likely never call into your show and that we will probably never speak. But I wanted to reach out on behalf of an invisible community." The large number of people who silently absorb your content every single day doing the heavy quiet work of healing in the background. For a long time, your show has been a companion to me. Your wisdom on boundaries, relationships, and specifically your insights into overcoming the emotional deficits of parents having fundamentally changed how I view my history and myself. As of your advice, I've learned how to dismantle old childhood conditioning, calm my own nervous system, and step up is the adult in my own life. I know you hear from a lot of collars about the impact you make, but please remember the massive silent army of us who are changing our lives in private because of your voice. Thank you for your wisdom, your empathy, and your relentless dedication to helping people build safer lives. Please keep going. You are inspiring and healing more people than you will ever know with deep gratitude, Esther. I don't even know what to say about that other than that was, I need to hear that today. Well, I'm glad I saved it then. I'm glad you saved that, and thank you for not adding, and thank you for your team, Esther. Shout out, that was just for me, just for me, not for all y'all that make this whole thing happen. That was awesome. Hey, for everybody out there listening, who's just taken even the tiniest step to change your life. I'm with you and I'm grateful for you. We'll see you soon, bye.