Caller: “Is Counseling the Kiss of Death?”

[MUSIC] >> Recently on two different shows you mentioned each time that marriage therapy can be the kiss of death for relationship and I wanted to know is that going to be the truth for my case. >> When it comes to marriage therapy, the data on it is not great, but I think there's a context to that data. [MUSIC] >> What up, what's going on? This is John with the Dr. John DeLone show. >> Dude, the associate producer Alex is back from his honeymoon. Dude, you're glowing, homie, it was a good time. >> It was amazing. >> Congratulations, man. We're proud of you, we didn't think you're going to go through it. We thought you were going to run it the last minute, so that's good. Actually, we knew you were going to go through it. We thought she was going to run, but congratulations, my man. That's awesome. Hey, if you want to be on this show, I'd love to have you. We're talking about your mental and emotional health, your marriages, your kids. Whatever you got going on in your life, pull up a seat for 20 years. 20 more than 20 years, not a good grief. I'm getting old, I've been sitting with hurting people trying to figure out what's the next right move for you and your family. So give me a call, actually, click the link in the show notes. We don't use telephones anymore because #21stcentury, so they say, we're going to go back to landlines one day. I'm telling you all, but it's got to Louisville, Kentucky. And talk to Christine. Hey, Christine, what's up? Hi, John. How are you? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm doing really well. Thanks for taking my call. What's up? So my question for you was, is marriage counseling or couples therapy really the case of death? So a couple of weeks ago, I scheduled a couple of therapy appointment for my husband and I. It'll be our first one. And then I'm an avid listener, so recently on two different shows, you mentioned each time that marriage therapy or couples counseling can be the case of death for relationships. And I wanted to know, is that going to be the truth for my case and how can I approach couples therapy in a way that it is productive and can help us get to our goal and can come out together at the end of it. I love that. So great, great, great question. And thank you for listening and calling in. And awesome. I'm glad that I get to make, make my own statement on this, if you will, like clarify myself. So I'm a believer in therapy. I wouldn't be doing what I do, but I'm a believer in it when you need it and for specific purposes. I do believe that our culture has been way over-therapized, meaning I think that therapy has often filled the vacuum of this epidemic of loneliness that we have. We don't have anyone to talk to, we don't have anyone to sit with us, we don't have anyone to hold up a mirror to us, we don't have anyone to challenge us and celebrate us. So we literally have outsource that we pay for that. And I think we've over-pathologized everything, meaning if your marriage is not doing well, you're supposed to be sad, right? You're supposed to be frustrated. Your anger is a good, normal thing, sad, grief. All those things are normal and right, yet since they don't feel good, we've said, hey, we can fix that instead of I can sit with you and work through it. When it comes to marriage therapy, here's what I mean when I say it's the kiss to death. Number one, the data on it is not great, but I think there's a context to that data. If you go to marriage therapy, by the time people go to marriage therapy, it's usually one of two things, one of three things. Number one, I want to check this box because I'm done. I want to either consciously or subconsciously tell the world I did everything and we even went to therapy. Or maybe this person can quote unquote fix us, which is never going to be the case. The second reason people go is they want a neutral third party to just air every grievance. And they dump everything in a big creole stew pot and they just stir it and stir it and stir it and stir it and stir it. That makes sense. It's like, I think Terry Reels, Terry Reels, one of the master relationship therapists, he's world class, but he talks about the phrase, I just need to get this off my chest is often not a helpful thing. Right. So it just becomes if you think about you have a sack of bricks and your spouse has a sack of bricks, you're just handing the bricks back and forth to each other. Or usually once a spouse just gets them all piled on them or whatever. Marriage therapy can be extraordinary if two people are willing to go in there, be honest, with a shared goal of dealing with the challenges in front of us and coming together to build something strong on the other end. And that means you need a good therapist that will take one of you on that won't just sit there and say, well, how does that make you feel when watching cruel behavior. That means you need a therapist who will sometimes take sides of one spouse over the other, which goes against most marriage, family therapy training, and it takes two spouses not trying to go in there and win, but trying to go in there and truly learn some new skills they can practice in front of the therapist and then practice outside of the therapist. Does that make sense? Right. Yeah, it does. It does for sure. So tell me why y'all are going. Why'd you book an appointment? We've been married for will be married five years in a couple months. We've been together for about seven or eight years and we have two little kids together. I was previously married. I have. And 11 year old daughter as well. And that was a very young marriage like I kind of don't put too much weight into that, but I just feel like I've just noticed patterns now from the years, you know, like for the beginning years, you know, yeah, there's rough bumps, but you're so in love that you just think like it'll we'll get better, we'll get through it and I do see improvements. But I always see this consistent like backslide. I think mainly from him, I do want to say just of like effort and leadership and and putting us. Him and myself together first as like the priority in our lives and our relationship as well. And I just he doesn't really have a context for what therapy is. So he was very nervous. We had our first appointment yesterday. And so I think it went OK. It was very like introductory where just getting our past history, kind of like mental health history and she did take each of us by ourselves and said, you know, I'm going to talk to each of you separately. And but anything that you may say or any confession that comes out, you guys are both my clients together. So I will have to share whatever is said if it is appropriate, you know, or depending on the case. And so when I was one on one with her, I did express my my issues with his kind of innocence is lack of emotional intelligence or just like lack of depth or wanting to really partner and marriage. And I didn't whenever he was in the room, I did not want to bombard him or make it seem like he's the bad guy. And I think he thought it was going to be like that going in. So I really want him to get like have him experience of safe space as well so that he can grow and learn different techniques or even like open up to different ways of thinking about marriage or about relationships. And so I'll tell you, you explaining that to me is fantastic. And you have a pretty clear picture. What I want to challenge you on is you've already set a dynamic up where it's going to be very hard for him to win. And here's what I mean. I don't want him to feel these ways, but I believe these things. Yeah, I don't want him to feel like a failure and that he's not stepping up and I don't want to bombard him. But as soon as he leaves the room, I'm going to drop all the bombs because I think he's failing us. Right. You know what I'm saying? So I do. And then the second part of that is I want you to be very open. And in fact, say these things out loud in front of him in front of your therapist. I came in here thinking that if he would just change, then this whole marriage would be better, but I know that's not true because you need to change too. Right, definitely. And what I find out not all the time, there is times when one spouse is just a jerk, they do have a narcissistic personality disorder. They are just lacking a tone of skills that make it impossible to plug into right or the struggle with addiction and mental health issues, whatever. But almost not almost always but a huge portion of time. He probably learned early on what I do here is wrong. I don't put the towels the right way. I don't put the toothpaste up the right way. I don't put the dishes in the dishwasher the right way. And so I'm just going to back out of here slowly. Right. I don't do this with the kids. Right. And so these dynamics usually co-create themselves and the reason marriage therapy doesn't work is because people go into a therapist to the therapist will fix their spouse. Right. Instead of help reimagine and rebuild the interaction between two people trying to build one cool awesome thing together. I agree with that and I'm very open with him like to the point where it like we probably I don't know maybe we shouldn't have found found help earlier. but I've always asked him if there's anything I can do to make you happy, 'cause sometimes he doesn't seem very happy with me, and I just don't understand why. And I really, I listen to you all the time, so I know what you say about, if he does something, just close your mouth, be grateful that he did it. And I am 110% that way. Like, he kept the kids on my birthday so that they could get a cake for me, and the house was blown up, but I was just glad for the intentions that he did. You know, the small intentions, and he did them, even though behind the scenes, I'm like, oh my God, but it's okay. So I really, and I am self-aware, I want people to tell me what I can't see about myself, and I hope to get that as well, so. - Awesome. It's you and him walking together saying, we live in this house, but together, we want to build that house, and that just has some cooler, I don't know, castle vibes to it, or like it's got floating shelves, and it's got a different kind of tile, and we just don't have the skills to do that yet, and that's where we're going to go do this. Not to sit in the same house, y'all, or win into the therapy office with, and just complain about who did what wrong, right? You get what I'm saying? - Kind of just clear the deck, and just start building what we want to be able to fix. - That's exactly right. - Or not fix, but what we want to build like you said, yeah. - And it may be that you find out, you really want to want to get feedback. - I do want feedback. I want any kind of feedback, positive or negative, you know? - And so maybe ask him in front of the therapist, what are some ways I can love you when things are hard, when things are tense, when things are uncomfortable, and I would love to give you a roadmap on how I like to hear feedback, 'cause I want this to be a place where you exhale and drop your shoulders. I want this to be a place where you're happy to be home. - Right. - Yeah. - I want this to be a place where I'm happy to be home. What must be true for them? - Right, yeah, and for our kids, and not perpetuating what we've been doing, you know, for the past six years that we create that positive environment for them, but just my last fear is just that, and I've just seen it before. It's like when I try to open the doors for him to tell me, it's like out of a whole month, there's like four days in that whole month, but I feel like I can get a real person to person, like conversation where I hear his feedback, and then the rest of it, it's just he's just like, I don't know, it's fine, I'm happy with whatever, you know? And it's, there's no good thinking. - But it sounds like you're looking at your marriage as though you're watching film tape of it. - Yeah. - Like it's an old football game or volleyball match, and y'all are watching tape, like for the upcoming opponent. What if y'all were just friends? - Yeah. - What if you'll dance in the living room? What if you threw a wet towel at him when he walked in the door? What if you flashed him when he was least expecting it? What if he just cleaned up on his way into the house? Like, what if y'all were just silly, laughing friends? - Yeah. - And then it makes the hey, we need to have a big conversation. Those things are much rarer. I'm thinking of like my 20, 30, 40 year friendships that I have, big, dramatic, like hey, we need to talk. That doesn't happen super often. - Right, no, yeah. - 'Cause we've done hard things together, and we spend time laughing, checking in on each other. How are you? Hey, Mandy, on anything? How's your family? How's your wife? How's your kids? Like, it's just a, you know what I'm saying? - Mm-hmm. - But if it's like, hey, how am I doing? What's the point system here? What's my score? What needs improvement? Then it's just because, like, home becomes a workplace, yet another place to sing and dance and perform. - Right, yeah. - And you're each taking turns being silent cowl. Right? - Mm-hmm. - Instead of just being this place where I can drop my shoulders and just be. - Yeah, be ourselves. - You get what I'm saying? - I do, yes, I do understand. - And let me tell you, here's how this has played out in my house, and it played out differently than I ever could have imagined. My wife likes to go to bed really early, and as I've dug into that, she would do anything to be able to stay up till midnight with me and just go out to the comedy club, go out to a punk rock show and to go watch the late movie or whatever. I mean, she's been in tears about it before. I would love that. But if I don't get, she says, if I don't get sleep the next day, my body is an off switch, and I've fought it, I've tried. And so, and vice versa, I would love to be able to just go to bed at 830 or 9 with her. I would love that. And as soon as I lay down, it's like, "Hey, let's go do some crazy, right?" And so, here's what we've had to do. We've had to both realize we like each other. And in this particular thing, I like this, and she likes that. Or I want this and she needs that. And so, we've both had to grieve the fact that it isn't perfect. - Right. - And then we realize our friendship is way bigger than that. And she's like, "Man, I'm glad you have a thing to go do at late at night." And I'm like, "Dude, I'm glad that you can just put your head on your pillow and go to sleep at 830 or 9." That's so awesome. And I'm sad that I wish you were with me, but man, I'm happy for you. - Yeah. Yeah, you have an understanding. - Yeah, and so liking all the same things, doing all the same things, that's impossible for most couples. But can we still support each other and love each other and navigate those differences because we're friends, we just like each other. - Yeah. - Right. - And then when things come up, things come up. And a therapist is gonna help you with skills. - Mm-hmm. - How can you catch each other and say, "Hey, can I say that over again?" Or if somebody says something that hurts, they can respond back. Could you try that one again? Could you say that in a different way? - To where that's the signal for you, like, "Oh, I came across really mean, okay." - Right, and a therapist can help you practice those things. - Okay, that gives me hope because I think that that's a big part of it. It's just skills, learning how to get out of the old ways and go into a more healthy, correct way that we can battle carriers forward. - And absolutely, if you have some skills you need to work on, if you can't get through to your spouse, marriage therapy can be an amazing thing. But if it's just a fixture spouse, or if it's just 'cause I need someone to hear what he's doing or she's doing to me, it's doomed to fail. And if you get a therapist that doesn't have the courage to take one of you on, if you have a therapist that just says, "Well, how does that make you feel?" And how does that make you feel? And doesn't give you homework assignments to practice together and doesn't hold you accountable to those homework assignments. Then yeah, you're just in there stirring a pot over and over and over again and the data bears that out. But if y'all both go in and say, "Hey, we wanna build this awesome thing," and we just don't have the skills yet. Great, we have some stuff we gotta work through, some hurts from the past. And he has to figure out how to say sorry and you have to figure out how to say sorry, whatever. Man, marriage therapy can really change your marriage in a positive, wonderful way. Actually, y'all will do the work to change your marriage. We come back, a woman asks how to separate her feelings of rejection from her husband's erectile dysfunction. We'll be right back. The weight is finally over. Montana Knife Company has launched their first folding knife, the Montana. I'm holding it right now. This thing is amazing. I did not think it was gonna be this cool. 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But he has erectile dysfunction. I knew that when we got married, but over time it started to affect me in more ways than I have expected. We often have to plan our intimacy around medication, timing, and circumstances, which is becoming stressful. Sometimes everything is lined up and it still doesn't work out. I'm beginning to associate his inability to get an interaction with rejection, even though I know until actually that's not fair. I love my husband and I'm finding myself losing attraction, boating resentment, and avoiding intimacy altogether. How do I separate a medical issue from my feelings of rejection and rebuilding passion in our marriage? Thanks for having the courage to call on that. That's a big deal. Yeah. And yeah, you're right. I know he hates it too. Yeah. And it carries a lot of additional shame and secrecy and all that for men. I get that. But we don't talk about the partner side of that. And so thank you for calling. Yeah. I feel like I live a secret too. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I've heard from women in your situation that my husband won't keep his hands off me, and it's like that quiet. I wish my husband would put his hands up, right? It's like that. Your world gets very, very small because your secret becomes his secret. So we're just not going to say anything for anybody. Right. And that's tough, tough, tough. See where I can start here. I don't, I think it's not a good use of time to try to separate feelings here. Okay. So feeling sad that you don't have a spontaneous, reckless, sex life right now is right and good. That doesn't make you broken. That doesn't mean you can make you a bad wife. Okay. Yeah. It's, it's just grief. It, I, grief is the gap between what you wanted and what is reality. And this is a big gap, right? Right. And so it's right to grieve it. Like you had this picture of what marriage is going to be like and there's, you're going to have to be swatting away this guy all the time because you couldn't give his hands off you. And now you're like, well, maybe next week at this time, if I get home in time and take my medication and then maybe if, right, that's just not how you drew it up. That's not how you dreamt about it. It doesn't make you a bad person. Right. And then I feel like when he does take his medication, like I have to pull through, you know, tell me about that. Well, you know, earlier in the day, things are going great, you know, we send 30 text messages. And then by the time the kids get to bed and it's 930, 10 o'clock at night, I'm no longer wanting to be intimate. But he's already taking his medication by that time. And you know, there's times where he's been angry because we didn't end up being intimate. And you know, he doesn't really like the way that the medication makes him feel if he doesn't ejaculate. So it ends up being like, I have to pull through if he ends up taking his medication. You definitely need to have that hard conversation. Yeah. Okay. Because in the same way that you all have plans and you all something sounds like a good idea to in the afternoon. And the reality of 5 pm through 9 pm hits with young kids, or with anything with work with whatever part of him is he has permission to be sad, like, oh, man, I thought that time it was going to be the night. And also life happened. But you feeling forced to have sex when it's uncomfortable when you're it's painful when you're just completely zonked out. Man, that's that's abusive. I mean, that gets real dangerous real fast. Yeah, I think there's like disappointment on both. And of course, you know, yes, like disappointment, like, you know, he was prepared. And now I'm not. And then on the other end as well, like, I want to. And, you know, it's just not working out on his ends. Yeah. What I've often heard from, let me just say this way, a medical issue is a medical issue, whether it's erectile dysfunction, whether it's cancer, whether it is respiratory infection, like, it's just people get sick, right? Whether it's vaginismus, whether it is an extended postpartum, like medical issues or medical issues or medical issues, right? Right. And there's something about basic human decency and kindness and walking alongside your spouse and not and I'm saying this to men and women, not just this isn't to you and not pouting and being sad and whatever. And then there's a creativity. Is there things we can do in this, like, in the gap, right? And that may not be this, but is there creativity, play, fun? Like, okay, this is a given. Is there a world we can create given this reality here that we can do something else? Do we can do a million other things, right? And then there is a, um, I'm trying to think of a word that's not grief, but it might be grief or it might be a challenge. Maybe it's the words challenge I'm looking for. Has he given up trying exhausting every resource to get to the bottom of his medical challenges? No, okay. I don't think he's willing to. Let me stop right there. That's where 95% that's anecdata made that number up, but that's where most spouses on either side of this equation, men or women, it's less, I'm less frustrated that there's a medical issue because that happens. I'm more frustrated that my spouse isn't going to the ends of the earth to a, feel better themselves and be let us do this amazing thing together. Share sex and intimacy and fun and play in the erotic, all those things because they're like, now I'm not doing that. I'm not going to talk to that doctor. I'm not going to go to that particular therapy or go to the intervention. And that's where most people I see in here get really resentful. Yeah, I think it's just a sore subject so I don't push that much. It's almost like avoidance for him. He has sexual trauma in his past and drug use in his past and he always tells me that he's worked through it with so many therapists and so many different reabs over the years that he's like, what are they going to do? They're going to prescribe me the medication that I'm taking. That's not true at all. Yeah. Yeah. And again, it's one of those like, most, most folks say, I love my spouse. I would do anything for them, but as meatloaf saying one time, but I won't do that, right? Right. And I'll, I'll protect you. I'll fight for you. I'm not going to go talk to a doctor. No way. Right. Right. And so and by the way, again, to go back to it, I don't mean to be dismissive of you because I'm not in any way. You're living a really rough, messy situation. But I want him to have peace. Right. Right. And if he still has unresolved trauma, if his erectile dysfunction is psychosomatic, if it's psychological in origin, my goodness, man, I want that guy to have healing. Right. And if it's if it is physiological, right. And low-dose and clomaphine can kick his testosterone back. I mean, there's so many things. If it's weight loss, he needs to lose weight. Like there's so many opportunities now in the curtain modern era to just not stop fighting for yourself so that you can fight for your marriage. Yeah. And so I wonder if erectile dysfunction has a is again, I use this word a lot on the show, these words a lot, but as a proxy war for I feel like you've given up on yourself. Or the story I'm making up is you're just kind of done trying to keep healing. And that makes me feel sad for you. It makes me feel sad for me that we're just throwing our hands up and we're saying the most dreaded sentence in the English language. This is just the way this is going to be. Right. Right. Which is what I fear. Yeah. Because it's not, I mean, there's nothing that makes me feel like desired. Yeah. Cause even like, I feel like sometimes he doesn't want to try because he has that in the back of his mind, like, what if it doesn't work? Yeah. And then. But there's a there's a shame-based response to that. There's a playful response to that. There is a meaning like, yeah, do let's get going. If it doesn't work, we've got 50 other things to do. Yeah. Right? And that's you responding with a smile on your face, not slump shoulders. Yeah. But it's y'all two going on an adventure together as much as let's try it out. Cause then it becomes a performance. Is it going to work? Is it going to work? Is it going to work? Right? Right. And that's just a lot of pressure on on both of you. Yeah. But my here's my very concern. It sounds like you have a relationship where you can't say something or you can't be you can't express something. You can't be open about things. Because you also have to play protector of his precious little feelings. That's accurate. Okay. We need to get to the bottom of that. And the path forward, I've given this this this playbook, this framework a lot, but I need to have a big hard conversation with you. The second part of that is the story I'm making up is you've just kind of given up on yourself, on us. The story I'm making up is I can't I can't talk to you about some of the things that are on my heart and spirit because you just shut down. And that makes me feel alone. That makes me feel like I'm keeping secrets. That makes me feel about myself. And that scares me to death. Here's what I would love to be able to do. That's the last part. I would love for you to go see a doctor because I want a husband that won't stop fighting for himself and won't stop fighting for us. And I want a husband that feels good in his own skin. I just don't want that to turn around like he's doing it for me and like he doesn't really want to do it. It's like a chore for him, you know? Yeah. If sex becomes a chore, like I don't want to be doing this, but I have to do this to keep the peace in my home. That's a big problem. Yeah. But I went and saw I got in my car and drove hours away from my house as a paranoid, over anxious OCD out mess because my wife said, you're not okay. Because my buddy Todd said, dude, you got to go see somebody. I did not go the first time for me. Yeah. And I'm grateful that I had two people that love me enough that said, if you don't do it for yourself, do it for me. And that got me in the door. Yeah. That knocked the first domino down. Eventually, he's going to have to look in the mirror, right? And say, I'm worth more than I'm worth feeling feeling better. I'm worth being alive in my own skin. I'm worth a wild fun sex life with my wife. I'm worth all these other things. But man, if a spouse says, hey, I need you to go to the doctor because I miss you. I don't want to give up. I don't want you to give up on yourself. I don't want to give up on us. Yeah, that makes sense. And it sounds like you are missing like a healthy dose of just being friends. Yeah. I feel like the season that we're in is just so busy and chaotic that it's almost like the only time we connect is being intimate at night. I mean, we have three kids. And full-time jobs are in the process of moving. So add another thing on the schedule. And it just it's a lot like it's a lot. Yeah. Are there are there little things y'all can do to come together? Like making a cup of coffee in the morning? Oh, for sure. Like you walk it in the door with no phone out. Just hugging you for 30 seconds. Yeah, we do hug a lot. Okay. I probably could be better at putting my phone away. Yeah. If you looked at him and said, hey, I'm putting this stupid phone away. And from now on, you're going to be my first priority because you're my you're my best friend. That would probably mean the world to him. Yeah. There's this weird thing about somebody going first and erect out as function and my worth it over here looks like the big neon sign. But often that path to healing some of the big things that are going on, the big gaps, the things we're grieving in our lives starts with tiny little steps way on the other side of the planet. Yeah. Right. The smack in them on the butt when you walk by the just gentle hand on the back of his neck when you see he's just kind of tensed up about something. Yeah, I definitely could be more intentional when it comes to things like that. I'm going to send you the together app for free for a year. And it has you can do it by yourself or it's got two player mode in it for you and your spouse. Okay. I'm going to send it to you for free just my gift, but it's just a daily intentional activity to come back together slowly, but surely. Okay. Awesome. Thank you so much. And man, please use it for 60 days, 90 days and just commit that every day on whatever the thing pops up. I'm going to do my best to make that thing happen. And if you all get together once a week and you say, all right, we're in a chaotic season. What must be true this week? Moving schedules, work schedules. We've got three young kids. We're going to put ourselves first. What does that look like on a weekly rundown? And it's got it's got an outline for that in the app too, just a map for how to do that well also. But thanks for the call. I erected out as functions a big deal and it's got cascading issues and it's shame, frustration, planning, organization, too much structure and not enough play and fun. And it ends up feeling like the thousand pound elephant in the room. But man, you talk about it. You plan for it. You get creative with it. You don't give up trying to solve the problem. And man, I get if he's got a traumatic background, he's been in a therapist and doctors. It's got to be frustrating for him to get up. It's got to be heartbreaking to get up and go. I'm going to go again. And I just always throw medication at it. Sometimes medication is amazing. And sometimes I want to get to the root of these things. It's tough. But man, things that we don't talk about get bigger and bigger and bigger until they explode. So let's don't keep secrets anymore in our marriage. Thanks for the call, sister. We come back. A woman asks how to manage her parental anxiety from years of working in emergency medicine. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer's a time when people escape. Whether it's relaxing, going on vacation, we've all been sold this lie that if we could just get away from it all, everything will magically work itself out when we return. Here's the thing. A vacation won't fix what you won't face. If you're anxious, burned out, or struggling, these problems will be waiting for you when you get home. And this is why I recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that fits into your life. You can talk with a licensed therapist by phone, video, or messaging from anywhere. No commuting, no sitting in a waiting room, just a safe place to process what's actually going on in your life. And all of BetterHelp's therapists follow a strict code of conduct. You can message your therapists and schedule sessions right in the app. It's not the right fit. You can switch any time for no extra cost. This summer, don't ignore what's come into the surface. Sometimes the strongest thing you can do is stop running from it and start dealing with it. Go to BetterHelp.com/deloney to get 10% off. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com/deloney. All right, Lana, Georgia. Let's talk to Nicole. Hey, Nicole, what's up? Hi, Dr. John. How are you doing? I'm doing all right. How about you? Great. Thank you so much for taking my call. You betcha. So I'm just going to jump right in as you say, I guess. Cannonball? Yeah. Cannonball. So I'm a mom of three. I've worked in emergency services since I was 18. Wow, what do you do? Well, I've worked as a paramedic. I've worked as an ER nurse and currently I'm working as a flight nurse paramedic. Woo! Nice. How old are you? I'm 41. 41. You've been doing this almost half your life. I know it. Wow. Amazing. Yeah. No, wait a minute. You've been doing it for more than half your life. Yeah. Good math skills. Way to go, John. All right, man. So you're in it. Okay. Yeah, completely in it. So all that time, and I've seen a lot of tragedy and worst case scenarios, and I feel like here's a scene that kind of stuff has somewhat kind of trained my brain to expect bad things. >> Yes. >> So, I wouldn't say necessarily with my life or my self, but when my kids go to do normal kit things, my mind just immediately jumps to catastrophe. - Yeah. - Like I don't want my fears to be my children's limitations and I don't want to be controlling or anxious. So I'm just wondering like, how do I make peace or honor what I've seen and stay appropriately cautious without letting those experiences convince me that disaster's always around the corner? - That's a great question. Let me start off by saying you're not crazy and you're not broken in any way. Okay. You have a seat at the table that most people will never experience until it's them or somebody they love. - Yeah. - Right. And you've seen the wildest of wild things, all right? And so there's a couple of things I want to talk to you about for you, okay? And then we'll get to what to do with your kids, is that cool? - Yeah. - Thing number one is you owe it to yourself first to have some sort of wellness protocol that you follow pretty religiously. Okay. - Okay. - You have to, and this is a, I tell this to every first responder, group I talk to, every organization I talk to, every individual I talk to. You can't go give what you don't have. Here's what that meant for me when I was running around with paramedics and emergency room nurses and police officers and things. I had to have an exercise program. I had to have a counselor and I had a practice of, for lack of better terms, my own private funeral for people that I was with that died. It allowed my body to put a period at the end of the sentence for them. And it wasn't this open loop that became 500 open loops that became endless amounts of open loops. And you've been through infinitely more than I have over your 20 plus years of doing this. And so that means when your, when your life light doesn't make it, that you carve out 10 or 15 minutes and write that person a card that you're never gonna send, write that family a card that you maybe you will send, that you pray for that person if you're a person of faith, that you say their name out loud. And you exhale. - Yes, completely. - You're still with me? - Yes. So I feel like I do have, like I exercise. I feel like I have a good routine support system. I have been in therapy for the last two years. However, I have been in for other reasons. I have not ever discussed. - Well, and let me say this, it doesn't have to be a therapist. You just need people that you can talk to that aren't necessarily other first responders. - Okay, my husband's also a first responder. - There you go. So yes. And so you've got, you've got, this isn't a bad thing. This is a natural thing. You've got tension trying to make peace with tension at differing levels at different times. - Okay. - Right. - Yeah. - And so it's just a matter of like having somebody that's not in your home that you can exhale with or you and your spouse, you and your husband say, "All right, we got 10 minutes. Hit the time or go. Craziest thing you saw today." And by the way, I got all dramatic. You may need somebody, you can just say like, dude, you know I saw today and y'all end up laughing so hard your guts hurt. And I know, I know your emergency room nurses, y'all get dark, man. Y'all get real dark. - Yeah, I want to say like that kind of is normal. Like I'm totally used to that kind of thing. - I know, I know. - Even sometimes I already outwork, you know. - You soon. - Yeah, yeah. No, no, yes, that's, it's a protective measure and it's very, very important. It's one of the greatest releases ever. Some of my hardest times have ever laughed. I can't talk about them on this show 'cause people would think I was psychotic, right? - Yeah, I can have things that come to mind right now. - I know, I know. All right, so here's the thing, when it comes to your kids, I want you to keep a small, like in your purse, in your backpack, whatever you carry around with you, I want you to keep a small little notebook. That's it. Call it a journal, call it a diary, call it your notebook, call it your, you can even, I wouldn't use your notes app on your phone. There's something about writing it down. I think it's powerful. But any worry that pops up with your kid, I want you to get it out of your body and write it down. - All right. - Is this real? So let me tell you something about I, so for most of my career, I worked with sexual assault victims and doing sexual assault investigations of some shape, former fashion, okay? Now I've got a 10 year old daughter and I got a 16 year old son. - Yeah. - My heart, it goes, things in my, it's not even a thought I'm having my body reacts, right? And it's a strange, strange, almost comical if it wasn't scary, hypervigilance. Like if I see one person just double take it my daughter in a gas station, right? Or I think they do. I can't describe, I don't have to describe it to you. You know a switch flips that, I don't know, I don't know who even switched, like flip that switch and I don't even know what that switch was. And it's just a strange hypervigilance or for you, hey, we're doing a pool party. And you instantly think of 15 kids you've pulled out of pools before. - It's just like a feeling that I can feel rising. - Yeah, yeah. - And it doesn't really take over, but it's very apparent that it's there. - Yes. - So like. - And so if you write that down, kids wanna go to a pool party. Are they gonna be safe? And all we're trying to do is get our bodies feelings which are right and good. Your body's right to sound every alarm you got 'cause you've seen those kids and you've had those conversations with their moms. Right? And so your body's right to sound the alarms, that's not safe. And in reality, usually it is. And you might have different rules and other parents, my dad as the homicide detective who's in and out of ERS' whole career. He had two big rules for me growing up. Zero skateboards and zero motorcycles, period. All of my friends were super skaters when Tony Hawk was coming out. They all had half pipes and all this crazy cool ramps and stuff, no skateboards. 'Cause every time I doused in the ER, it was some kid who'd broke his neck on a skateboard or broke his arm or died in a motorcycle wreck. And so for me and my house, that was just one of rules, man. You know what I mean? So it's okay to have, you're gonna have different standards and different rules 'cause of what you've seen and experienced. That's all good. And I'm not just gonna willy nilly be like, oh man, my body's having this response about my 10-year-old daughter, my 16-year-old son. I'm just gonna ignore it. No, I'm gonna have some extra vigilance, right? Like my friends, my kid's parents' friends know I'll call 'em. It's to make sure, and I'll tell 'em, hey, I'm overzealous, I'm kind of weird about this, I don't care, or these safety protocols in place. And I have zero times, zero times, so I met a parent who's been ugly or rude or anything other than thanks for calling. Yeah. All right, so if your kid's going to a pool party, give yourself a checklist. Are there gonna be adults there? Is it gonna be safe there? How many kids are gonna be there? And do the things that you know to minimize that risk. Okay. And don't be afraid to say no to things. Your kids will not, let me say this, they won't try to solve your anxiousness or your fear if it's out of your body and it's subjective. Here's what I mean by that. If your kids say, "Hey, Mom, we all wanna go to a pool party." And you go, "Oh, that's your dad," or, I don't, just, I'll think about it. And then you start slamming the cabinets a little bit harder. Or you shut down, or you just pop on the couch and turn on TV on, or you grab your phone and start scrolling. It's not what they ask that your kid's gonna try to solve. It's that I did a thing that made Mom that way. Yeah. And that's what they're gonna try to solve. I need Mommy to be okay. So when they ask, you know, like they obviously know what I do. I mean, they're 11, 7 and 3. This older one knows what I do for work. So I don't talk about calls that I run in front of him, or any of my kids. But when he asks, what is like an appropriate response I don't want to make them fearful of things, but I also want them to be aware that there are dangers. >> Align my wife and I have used since the day both of my kids were born is my number one job is to keep you safe. >> Yes. >> That's the line I use all the time. >> I do say that actually, I said it to them last week and they said, "Wow, mom, you've got two jobs that you have to keep people safe." That's a lot. >> Yeah. And you're my number one job. >> That's it. And so, like, baking that into just the vernacular in your home, it's going to help you when they want social media at 13 and you're like, "No, do my one jobs keep you safe. Your body and your mind." >> Yeah. >> Right. So it'll help you with all of these different conversations, but yeah, your kid knows. And there'll be some times, you let me go to the pool party last time. >> Yeah. >> There was some safety measures there that aren't going to be at this one, and that's okay. And one of the things I do differently than my parents is when I say no to things, if possible, I try to fill that gap a little bit, meaning, yeah, I know you guys wanted to go to that pool party. That stinks, and I know you're sad and frustrated, I'll sit here with you. And you guys want to, I'll take you all the pool, you want to go pool with me? All right. And that means I got to get up and put my stupid phone away, put on my swim trunk, like, I got to go do the thing, right? >> Yeah. >> And it doesn't always work out, sometimes that's impossible, but rarely does me getting out and getting some sun and messing around with my kids, do I come back in a worse mood, right? >> Yeah. Very true. >> But I think it's just being honest about the fears, writing them down, getting them out of your body. And it's an old CBT trick for crying out loud. It's just kind of behavioral therapy trick, just is this feeling true? And if it is, make no apologies. Your kids are 11, they don't get a vote. >> Yeah. >> But also sit with them, because their sadness is real. All their friends are going to a thing that they're not going to be able to go to. All their friends are getting skateboard and they're not going to get one. All their friends are getting bird scooters or whatever, and they're not going to get one. I'll sit with you, that's a bummer. But my one job is to keep you safe. >> Yeah, I got it. >> But you're not crazy, you're good mom. Give me a couple of ideas of things you're scared of. I mean, not scared of, that's not automatic. Get your heart going when your kids ask about it. >> So we live kind of in the country. So it's not in common for my kids who are outside and play without me right there. There's no, we have neighbors, but they're not close. So sometimes not three-year-old about, she plays on the back porch often. And I'll look out there and she won't be on the porch. And immediately, immediately, I don't even have time to look for her before I start thinking, oh my god, she's fallen in the neighbors pond. Or like, we have a golf park, my husband was driving it, like last week I was cutting grass, and I see them from across the field. And my son's sitting on the edge of it while they're driving. And I immediately, like, just pictured him falling off and getting sucked underneath it. So I like, chase them down to be like, I can't sit on the edge or, I mean, water stuff, like I'm always make them more life jackets in the lake. And in the ocean, if they're in the ocean, like, big waves or anything like that, water's not as bad. It's just like. >> So let's take those two things. The price you pay for loving and taking care of your community, the way you do. Is your default setting is always gonna be a little bit unspooled from a regular person. And that's okay. You're not crazy. If your first default thought, you can't help your first thought and you can't help your first feeling. It is, what am I gonna do next? And it sounds like your husband, this isn't always true, but it sounds like there's. It tends to barbell first responders. It either makes you super cautious in your regular life or it makes you super reckless in your regular life. Like, pile on, let's go. Like, we're all going to die someday. Let's just get going. Right? You see what I'm saying? >> I feel like I'm on a reckless spectrum with my personal self. Like, I like to do wild crazy things. And I don't have those fears, even though I've seen like crazy things happen. And. >> No, it's with your kids. >> With my kids. >> I apologize for chasing down your husband and telling your kid to sit down. That's just good normal parenting. Right? Now you have a visual that most parents won't have. They have a thought about it. You've seen that, right? But I would expect my. She's done it when I'm being reckless with my kids. My wife will come out many a time and be like, "Hey, stop." And I'm like, "You're right." Or I'll go, "Boo, fun ruin or boo." And then I'll be like, "She's right, guys." Right? It turns into a funny thing. But, yeah, if your three-year-old disappears off the porch, you pause this or fast-forward this if just as a warning. You've probably given CPR to children. >> Yes. >> Right? And you've seen that ash and look when a kid gets pulled out of a lake or a river. That's not a TV thing for you. You've been in the room and that happens. That's a very different experience. So you're not crazy if your neighbors have a big pond and your three-year-old disappears off the porch. And the thing to do next is you can exhale. Take one humongous deep breath and hold it as you're walking out the door. >> Yeah. >> It's catching that gap from, "Oh, I've got a lived experience. I've got multiple lived experiences here." And these are very real, very powerful. And if I run out on the back porch screaming bloody murder, my daughter is going to try to solve that. She's going to wear that. If I exhale and do the best job I can, it just takes practice of walking out and saying, "Sweet art, where are you?" Stand on the porch on. Then you begin to practice that emotional regulation that comes on the back of a big, huge feeling like that. It just takes practice. It's just a skill of set. You're doing a great job. You're doing a great, great job. Kids are lucky to have you and your husband. And thank you for loving and serving your communities and the way you do. And yes, your little one was right. You've got two big jobs. Keeping people safe. And we're glad you're doing it. We'll be right back. >> All right. When it comes to supplements, there's one company that I trust, Thorn. I was first introduced to Thorn by professional athletes over a decade ago. And they continue to be the main supplements I trust for me and my family. Supplements are an unregulated industry. What does that mean? It means that most supplements are flooded with garbage and nonsense. Most companies cut corners. They lie on their labels, but not Thorn. Thorn makes every product at their world-class facility in South Carolina, 35% of Thorn's employees work in quality control. And they reject 15% of their raw materials because good is not good enough for Thorn. It's why pro athletes, Olympic teams, and more than 60,000 doctors trust Thorn. And that's why I trust them too. Stop guessing what's going into your body and into your family's body. Go to Thorn.com/theleter-u/deloney to get 25% off your order when you create an account. That's TH-O-R-N-E. Thorn.com/theleter-u/deloney. All right, Kelly. Something cool happened. What is it? Savannah in Chattanooga. And she writes. That's a very Chattanooga name. Savannah. I'm Savannah. I'm born in Georgia, and I moved to Chattanooga. We're going to the city. You done? All right, go ahead. Okay. She writes. A few weeks ago on the show, you told the story of your friend, Jaco, admonishing you for saying you couldn't do pull-ups instead of saying you could do one pull-up. Does the story sound familiar? Oh, I remember it. I remember it. Yeah. For Jaco, admonishing you, you remember it for me too. You inspired me to go to the basement and to get to work on my husband's pull-up bar. I'm proud to say I can officially do two whole pull-ups after not even being able to get myself halfway up a few weeks ago. The world is my oyster now, and who's to stop me from saying that I can't do three next week? Love the show, and I've learned so much from you on how you sit with hurting people. PS, give Kelly a raise. I'm trying. It's not all honesty, y'all. John has nothing to do with myself. I listen. I am constantly trying. I'm trying. I'm trying. And I will say you have tried. You have done a good job at that because we've talked about that in recent days. We'll just leave it there. But you've tried. I'm working hard for everybody in the-- club except for Alex. I'm just kidding. I got you, Boo. I got you. But like, yeah, just that. I'll remember that line forever. By the way, in all fairness, I wouldn't consider, I don't have a jock of a still number. We don't hang out. Like when consumer friend, he's a colleague. I've done multiple events with him and et cetera. So I just want to put that out there. But I, one of my big pet peeves is like, my good friend. So and so that you're not, you know, you don't hang out or whatever. But I'll never forget that you can do one. And I was like, Oh, yeah, duh. And now Savannah can do two. I know. And then next week, she'll do three. And maybe by now she can do three. This was written in a week or so ago. And all these years later this morning, I was lifting weights in my garage and I was like, dude, I'm just going to do two. And then I thought, no, you said three sets. And I was like, okay, well, like, it's just keeping your promises. There are so many times when I'm working out because you know, I get up the same about five o'clock and I do weights. And I'm like, I'm just going to do two sets today. I'm in the internal dialogue of like, no, because I had a trainer wants to tell me the third set is where the change happens. And but that internal dialogue that goes on, like, no, do the third, I don't want to do the third set. No, do the third set. This is what you're supposed to do. That's another Jaco line is I don't negotiate with myself in the morning. And I love that line. I need to take that to heart because that alarm goes off at 4.50. There's a lot of negotiation happening. I don't negotiate. There's just, there's just an is. It went, I was like, Oh, yeah, I spend the first 30 minutes of my day negotiating with an exhausted fried guy. And like, it's not super helpful. Yeah. Anyway, all right. Way to go Savannah from Chattanooga, V of the South. Proud of you, dude. Hey, when you get to 10, send us a video and kill it. We'll post it for America. Love you guys. Bye.