Caller: Is Being a Nudist Bad?

All right, the marriage kit is here. This is me sitting with you and your spouse walking with you for a year in your marriage. They're only a limited number of these available. They will sell out, get yours now at jondelone.com. So, my question today is whether or not nudity or nakedness is evil or wrong or sinful. So, I'm really comfortable not wearing clothing in appropriate settings. We play pickleball, volleyball. You play nude pickleball? Yeah, it's pretty fun, man. I've never heard of nude pickleball, man. I'm just trying to imagine it and then I keep trying to not imagine it. What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. So glad that you're with us. Pull up a seat and we're going to figure out what's the next right move in your life. We're talking about your relationships, your dating, your marriages, your kids, or your mental and emotional health, your work, whatever you got going on. Pull up a seat. We're going to figure it out together. I'd love to have you on the show. If you want to be on the show, click the link in the show notes and fill out the form and we will get you on. It's got to Indianapolis, Indiana and talk to Ray. What's up, Ray? Hey, what's up, Dr. John? How are you doing? I'm good, brother. How are you? I'm doing well. Thanks for taking my call. You got it, man. What's going on? What is, whether or not, nudity or nakedness is evil or all, or a simple nudity is awesome. I mean, it's context, right? Yeah, definitely. Tell me about your question. Sure. Yeah, so I'm really comfortable not wearing clothing in appropriate settings in so much that I even modeled at college from our class and since then, I found a few places across the U.S., where like being in a birthday suit is completely acceptable, like we play pickle ball, volleyball, slim, sit on fabric or towels and we just have a good time. You played nude pickle ball? Bro, I'd feel like Kelly will edit this out. I feel. Nothing hurts. It's not that bad. What if you get hit in the goods with a pickle ball, dude? It hasn't happened so far, I guess that's what helped up. All right, man, each is own, dude. So, keep going, keep going. I've never heard of nude pickle ball, man. I'm just trying to imagine it and then I keep trying to not imagine it, so it's all happening at once. It's fun, it's fun. So, I've noticed that like in American culture, in North American culture, it could be some peritonical fruitage and my choice of lifestyle didn't really sit well with my formal partner, and that's a lot of hard conversations. She had a really hard time accepting me being nude socially, even worked out after a lot of conversations that it came down to like a moral feeling for her. And I thought that was pretty irrational. More context here is that with what Christian. You thought it was pretty rational or irrational? Yeah, rational, irrational. Okay. Yeah. More context here is that with both Christian and we've worked on another reason, but I was content to not ask her to participate particularly because she was in the education system after she works. So, I guess my second question is how to approach relationships in the future, particularly by Christian relationships where this might come up? Yeah, I don't really, I guess let's let's let's let's let's work backwards here. Okay. So, let's don't work backwards, let me let me just like clear the deck here. Ask your question again. Which question number one? What's question number two? The question number one is whether or not nudity is naked, I mean, nudity or nakedness is evil or all of a sudden false, it's just not something to do outside of marriage. And my second question is how do I like approach these conversations and relationships, particularly by Christian relationships, given that I found myself in a really good community right now? Yeah. So, I think number one is. it's a false way of asking a question because you automatically back the answer of that question into a really tight corner that's that's that's that will force an unfair answer. Ask the question in a more honest way, which is, which it sounds like you're asking me, is me choosing to be naked around a bunch of other naked people? Is that inherently wrong? Yeah, thank you, that's right. If everybody's consensual adults, right, right? And so my question to you would be, what was it about modeling that was a felt felt good? And I'm not saying that in a sexual way, but there was something about that experience that made you feel alive. Or they just paid you 50 bucks and it didn't bother you, you see, didn't care. I think there was a little boat. It was definitely the best being job I had in college. I did feel pretty alive doing it like it just felt different and out there and it was like different from my upbringing, which is like pretty conservative. Okay, so tell me about that. I mean, a group in a Christian household never really approached sexuality in any way, in terms of conversation or I guess even lifestyle choices per se, I mean, just I've always wanted the way to marriage and I'm still doing that. So maybe this is just one of those ways that I found to like exercise some, I guess, choice for will in that decision, outside of that decision or within those limits, I guess. Okay. All right, please myself or that's in place on me. It was just well pretty freeing and new and different, I guess. Okay. And so everybody feels, it goes searching for that sense of aliveness in our life, right? There's, there's neurochemicals, like that's that's a part of the human experience is seeking aliveness, right? And there's the reason we have our forebrain, which helps us not just be hedonic, not just hit the gas at all times, right? Right. And so it's you being honest about what are you getting out of these experiences? I will say now that like that's how it started, but now I just kind of enjoy the community. The people are pretty cool and then when you do sport without clothing, it's a lot more comfortable. If I'm being honest about that, like swimming without clothing is also a lot more comfortable. I can see swimming with clothing, I just can't wrap my head around, pick a nude pickle wall being more comfortable, but I got to trust you on that because I've never done it, right? I've never done it. I like everything being snug and secure. So, um, I think it's step down from that a while ago, like that feeling kind of went the way pretty quickly, it became to me more mundane, but I wouldn't say entirely so it's just a lot more. Oh, yeah, that's cool, but also I got to play sports, like it's fun to me at least. I know plenty, almost all, myself included. I have conversations about sex all day every day and none of it is sexual, right? And I have almost not almost all, but many of my friends are in helping professions, whether it's in the medical field or whatever. And they're dealing with nudity all day long and none of it is sexual, right? And you add in the social component, you add, you take off any sort of ethical breaks, you take off any sort of, um, what I would call professional training and you, you begin to grease the social, social lubricant, like I like to hang out with and do things naked with other people. You have to admit that changes to the dynamic. Is that fair? Yeah, because let's flip this conversation and this is a good conversation to me to have out loud because I've never, I've never even thought about this before, so I'm, I'm thinking in real time. If it doesn't matter, then why doesn't it, why does it matter? If it doesn't matter, why doesn't matter? Right. So if it's just nudity and it doesn't matter, then if you're with somebody and you love them and they say, Hey, I feel more comfortable, you put some pants on. Why don't you just put pants on that because it doesn't matter? Okay, I guess the issue I have with that is, I see like some of those lines a little bit arbitrary and yes, very much based on culture, but I could, I could, I could see your point. All this to say is this, you're going to have to look at the mirror and make your decision on this. Okay, and anytime you or me or anyone, Kelly or friends or family, anytime a person by themself looks in the mirror and makes a value judgment. I think this is important to me. I think this matters. Every time you make a value judgment, you anchor yourself into bedrock. And by the way, I think beliefs and values are very different things. But if I make a value judgment, boom, I have to live with the consequences of that. Right. Right. Yeah. And for you, the consequence may be that you're surrounded by a whole bunch of people who share other beliefs, other value systems that can't reconcile this one. Right. And so you just have to know going in, it's a value proposition for me that I can go be naked with a bunch of strangers, build communities. nobody wears any clothes, we go play together, we go in adventures together, we go hiking together, we play sports together. As a person of integrity, you have to also see that that might make other people uncomfortable. And they're not stupid or dumb or somehow neanderthal because they're not comfortable with it. Because you have to understand I am in a very small minority of people who choose to do this thing. And so if you're going to make a claim, there's nothing sexual about this, there's nothing engaging about this, this is just the way I feel that I need to do my life. You get to make that decision, you're a grown man. But all of those decisions are going to come at a cost. Okay. And so to answer your second question, yeah, you're going to have a tough time, man. You've put some unique constraints on yourself. I want to be with somebody who has this particular viewpoint on the world, which comes with a pre-package understanding of what sexuality means, and what fidelity means, and what sensuality means. And I also want to be a part of this other community that is free for all when it comes to clothing optional, right? Right. That is a vine. It's very much a vine. But I want you to own that you are self-selecting. You're choosing to walk into this vine. Right. Which conversely means I'm choosing to walk in and I might potentially find myself really lonely. Right. Okay. And so all of relationship is like when you're meeting somebody and you're dating them and you're potentially looking at a future with them together, you're always seeing, are we sharing values here? Which values, did you think were values that actually you're willing to compromise because they were actually beliefs? Which things will I not, I will not budge on? And so you being honest about what is nudity bring to you? Is it this rejection of, like everyone telling you what to do? Is it rejection of norms? Have you just worked it all the way out in your head, philosophically and cognitively and said, I think that other people's view of nudity is just wrong. I like looking at naked people and I like people looking at me. It feels good. I like it. But there's not sexual. I'm not going to go sleep with these people. It's not like if you have worked that out in your head and that's where you've landed, you and I can disagree on that. But you're going to have to be honest with the person you want to pursue in a relationship, especially if you add this faith component to it. And so you get, I make that decision for yourself. But what I want to challenge you on is, is it the feeling of aliveness? Is it the feeling of being seen? Is it the feeling of seeing others? Is it the feeling of, I'm doing something I feel alive because I'm doing a thing that I know other people bristle at? Being as transparent as I can, I'd say it was the feeling of being seen when I started off. But like I've grown into it. If you want to use the word grown, it's more so that, okay, I met these people there. They know me. I know them. We hang out. We play at games. We bond. But it's my way that the aliveness kind of went away pretty quickly. It gets a little fast, I think, for me at least. But I'm saying, is it like, is it, is this your biker gang? You're counter-cultural in that way? Or I hang out with comics a lot. And the conversations we have in green rooms, whoa, right? But it's a bunch of people who are funny, who see the world a little bit obtusely and awkwardly and differently. And everybody who's super comfortable in their own skin. And so, man, the jokes are flying, the insults are flying, the like, whoa, that was, that was pretty harsh, like that was too far. But it's a counter-cultural group. It's a group of people who experience the world differently. Okay, I see that, right? Yeah. And so if that's the case, you also have to, I have to know if somebody has a video camera and they're recording private conversations of mine in a green room with certain people, I could be unemployable forever. Right. And you have to know, like if you're a part of a, again, I am totally out over my skis here. If you're a part of a Suns of Anarchy gang, and y'all all experience the world a little bit differently, and you murder people, you might go to jail. Right. Right. So if you're a part of a counter-cultural group, and everyone loves doing everything naked, there, there might be consequences socially and culturally because it's outside the norm. Right. Right. You might want to become a teacher one day, and all your students are passing around pictures that somebody took of you playing nude pickleball. And the school district says, man, I can't, I can't have, I can't have that. Right. Right. It's, I guess what I want you to get, the place I want you to get to is asking the question is new to the evil. Is it a fair question? Because of course, the answer is context-to-pay. Right. And I apologize for that mix up earlier. No, no, no, no, don't apologize. I just, I just, like, like, I'm not being trying to be antagonistic. I just want you to, like, own the, okay, I can see how I can back somebody in a corner with a question like that. But the real question is, is are people out of their mind because they don't understand that I like playing with other, other adults nude? I don't think it's a fair characterization to say other people are somehow less than or dumb or pure tanical or stupid because they don't understand that. Okay. I agree. In the same way that my wife will never understand why me and my friends like to rip on each other's hearts. She's like, I can't understand how friends talk to each other like that. Right. Thank you for that. I have to say, I, I get that. I, I, I understand your perspective on that. No, it's changing as we talk. So thank you for that. Yeah. And finding another Christian nudist, you know what? I'm confident that people will write in and say, I'm one. So best of luck to you on that, um, yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. And the comments are going to be roasting me as well. By the way, brother, so it's all good. Um, yes. I've never, ever, ever had this, this conversation before. So I appreciate you letting me have it. And I'll say this. I've talked a lot. Talk back to me now. I don't know if there's anything else I need to, I want to push back. I'll ask about, um, do I sound crazy? No, you don't. I appreciate you pushing back on me using the repertoire. It's puritanical believing that like it's everyone else is crazy. I, I guess I've been so seated in my own, uh, sort of conversations with my ex that I kind of like those of this hedge against what I think was okay. Uh, um, but yeah, I guess my, I guess my ideologies that like you take it cool to self, you don't take it malls off. So you try to be respectful of people in that and that you just don't do anything crazy. Yeah. Um, and, and I think I think it's honest to say there is, there is playing with fire there. Okay. Do you disagree with that? Um, yes. Okay. I think you could play with fire with people who are like out and about in just the cooperative clothing as well. A hundred percent. Yes. Totally. I think a clothing can make a body more provocative than not cool. That's my true. That's, that's probably very, very true actually. You're, you're probably onto something there. Yes. Some, some of the, yeah, some of the athletic wear is not honest in his presentation. That is very true. I, I fully agree. I know I said it, but like I, I just can't see, can't see past that being unless someone else could, like, convince me, otherwise, but yeah, that's why I stand on that for now. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you having the discussion with me and, um, I say this often and it's in people kind of roll their eyes. I mean, it's one of my favorite things in the world to a, disagree with somebody and to think through something completely wrong and maybe somebody will write in and let me know like, Hey, here's another way to see this. That's great and good. Um, yeah, that'll be awesome. I definitely, hopefully I, I share that podcast. Well, I appreciate the conversation, brother. I, I, yeah, I, you know what, I'm up to do some deeper thinking on a bit. Yes. My, my, I think nudity is very context specific and I, I do, I believe that, um, nudity, if you will, in medical context and health related context, um, with trained experts and clinicians. And by the way, that, that sometimes violate their ethical standards, man, like, there's, there's time and time and time again. That happens. Um, is a different thing than romantic nudity and those are, those are different things for me. So going to the doctors and having your prostate checked is different than being intimate with your wife, right? And, but that's largely because of the context we're bringing to that interaction. And so all that to say is it's a big old messy thing. But as for me, I'm not, um, going to be playing naked pickle ball anytime soon. And as for me I wouldn't want my wife out playing naked pickleball with the wedges strangers either. And vice versa. So there you go. Kelly, on the other hand, may be super into naked pickleball. I don't know. We'll talk about that on another show. Thanks for calling, brother. We come back. A woman asks how to support her husband after learning about his lack of confidence will be right back. 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And because Zander protects you up to $2 million, you never have to worry about some scam or stealing all of your money. I've got Zander. My family has Zander. In fact, the company where I work, Ramsey, they give Zander ID protection to every single team member. That's how important this is to us. Identity theft could happen anytime to anyone. Getting ID protection is a gift to future you. Get identity theft protection for yourself and for your family right now by going to Zander.com. That's Zander with the Z.com or click the link in the description. All right, let's go to Brooklyn, New York and talk to Sarah. Hey, Sarah. What's up? Hi, Dr. John. It's a pleasure to talk to you today. It's a pleasure to talk to you. What's going on? So I was wondering how to best support my husband after he told me about his lack of confidence. Tell me about it. So we've been married for two years and he doesn't open up so much, I would say. And then this time when he was open, I just like didn't know what to do. And I think I wouldn't have brought up the conversation had I known about it. But he only brought it up once you're like in middle of the conversation. And I was just like, oh my gosh, like, what did I do now? So what conversation were y'all having? So he had said, no, what an opportunity that he was very, very interested in. And it wasn't the first time that something like this has happened. And I had gotten very frustrated because it wasn't the first time and it ended up, we weren't even home. We were in like an unknown setting and it was just like a very crazy time. But I basically had told him, I feel like he just always says no to things that are hard or take effort and he just is very, he might be interested in something, but then the second like it comes to either saying yes or going further, he'll just shut it down and just say, actually, I'm not so interested or something like that. And his response was that he knows he's lazy, he knows he doesn't like hard things and he doesn't have self confidence. And that was his response to what I had said. And I was like in such a place of shock and I didn't have any idea that he felt that way. And I feel like I try to support him and be someone that he can rely on and something like that, but it was, it was really hard to hear and I didn't know what to do. So I wrote it. Well, what was hard to hear about that because I'm trying to figure out is the fact that he said something finally that was going on inside of his heart and mind, was that the shocking thing or was the shocking thing that he acknowledged? I'm lazy, I don't like doing anything, it makes me remotely uncomfortable and I like self confidence because all three of those things can be very true too. They can all be true at the same time. Right. I think the hard part was the fact that he said one that I like rely on and I put it to be someone that will help me in difficult times and to hear that he was struggling himself made me feel that I wasn't necessarily doing enough to help him or I was doing something wrong. Gotcha. So here's one of the, how long have you all been married? Two years. Okay. Here's one of the scariest, most empowering, most frustrating, most set you free things about being married to somebody. That's this. You can't make somebody else do anything. And so you can't, my buddy Jefferson Fisher, I like the way he phrased this. He said, when you're married, you give each other the nuclear codes. Like I can hurt my wife's feelings. You can hurt his feelings. He can hurt your feelings. Like he knows the things to say, knows the buttons to push and part of being married is not using those codes. Using the nuclear power to power a city with no environmental waste versus blowing the city up, right? And so you know how you can lift him up and empower him, but you can't make him be more confident. Strangely, you can't make him be less lazy. You can, you can nag and complain and beat him up and whine and he might go do stuff, but that's not going to make him less lazy. You can't make him want to do hard things. Do what? It's not going to be good for the marriage, it's always a losing strategy, right? Right. And so some people push back and say, well, I can make my spouse do X, Y, and my response is always, for a minute, you're right, but you're going to lose your relationship in the process. And so is part of what you heard scary to you that you realized, oh, this is a guy who's just admitting, you can't really anchor into me. When things get hard, I'm just, I'm not going to be a part of it. Is that part of this? I don't think I've seen it when it comes to, to something that is between us. I think I see it when it comes to the outside world and let's say like, but my head, my head jumps ahead. It has a lot to do with what they and supporting the family or in that regard. So the basis for us to be able to exist as a family feels not threatened, but feels like it would be affected versus our actual relationship in that regard. I don't, because I didn't know in the sense that like, it's not something that appears every day. It's not like I wake up and can see, oh, yeah, that like he doesn't have self-confidence. I was, it was something that was new information because it's, it's not something that I would have seen based on his actions, but now everything else kind of feels like it can be affected by that. Just how we live our lives and how the rest of our lives will go. Yeah. I think you're right to be worried about, like the weight of responsibility is an actual weight, right? And if somebody, you've seen them repeatedly when the weight gets even the room, like a little bit heavy, they're like, no, I'm not lifting that. If you've seen that over and over again, and then finally, the person looks at you and says, I don't like to lift the weight. It's uncomfortable. And by the way, I don't think I can lift that weight. You're right to be worried about what happens when we add kids to this? What happens when we add a mortgage to this? Because that's real weight, right? And I don't think he's had the experience of having to work very hard. So let's say, provide for something because, you know, he was in the school system, and then once we got married and he was still learning, I was the one that had a good job. So he didn't have to worry about it. No, it's, no, it's mellowed out a little bit where we're both getting paid and it's fine, but right now we're doing something temporary and we know we're not going to be in this specific place long term. So it's like, what happens when it's long term? And hopefully we have little kids running around that I have to take care of like how he can show up to that. And obviously, you never know in general how your life's going to play out, but he was pretty clear with you. He was pretty clear with you. Yeah. Right. And so I, oh, hear me say this, you are not being a bad wife by being worried about, by his admission, you're not being an unsupporting friend, an unsupporting partner and unsupporting spouse by seeing him repeatedly, sure, responsibilities are not step in to the next thing. And then he tells you, I don't like it. It's going to, I'm going to have to work extra hard. I don't want to do that. And then follow up with how many confidence, because here's the thing about confidence. It's not. not a cognitive exercise. You-- - What does that mean? - Blustery, guys who are like, dude, yeah, if this ever happens, I'm gonna fight this guy and they've never been in a fight, that's not confidence, it's bluster. You get confidence by doing things, hard things over and over and over again, right at the ledge of whether you think you can do it or not. And it's really uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable learning advice, it's uncomfortable physical-wise, but that's how you gain confidence. Oh, I can do that thing. - So what it kind of not be crazy if right now, he doesn't have confidence, but if he shows up to the hard situations or just shows up in general by saying yes to something, he doesn't feel comfortable with that that will change. - Yeah, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't, there's a difference between I don't want to and I can't. Your question is really important and instructive because all of us are married to people who have one vice or another or one challenge or another or multiple challenges or others. And how do we love them well, right? When they have those challenges. Because just hassling them or nagging them or whining about it, that doesn't solve the problem and just disconnecting and creating your own life by yourself, that's not helpful, right? So how do you love somebody in this situation? But yes, I would want to ask, like at some point he's got to. And here's the frustrating thing for you as somebody who loves him. It's gonna happen. The world will shove him underneath a bench press bar or a squat bar and I'm using bench press and squat as life. Somebody will pass away. Somebody will, he'll have great loss, he'll lose a job. He'll, you'll have a complication in pregnancy. Like life will happen. And the reason we do what we experience some of that. - There you go. And so the reason we do small hard things every day all the time is so that when life happens, there's a strength and a resilience and a confidence that's been earned, not thought through over and over and over and over again. But is lived out in real life experience. I've done hard things over and over again forever. And so now that I'm facing this other hard thing that maybe I haven't trained for specifically, I know that I can trust my body, I can trust my mind to be still and present. I can trust my emotional responses. I've put in the work on that end. - All right, so what's my role in that? - Is A to be honest. And B honest, not as a, like you're sitting up above him looking down. - Okay. - I'm gonna step out, 'cause when you feel frustrated that he turned down another job opportunity, when you feel frustrated that he won't get off the couch and get a second job, even though he has a bunch of student loans, I'm just making stuff up by the way. When you know he is unhealthy and doesn't feel good, but also he just keeps sitting down with two more burritos and a bag of cheetos and he's like, I don't want to, I don't want to exercise, ugh. Like he knows when you're frustrated with him. And so honesty is you saying, here's who you say you want to be and here's the things you're doing. And I want, as someone who loves you, I want to challenge you on, I see the gap. - When does that not become nagging? - Nagging is about you getting your way. - Okay. - Challenging a spouse. - What is it presenting him? - All right, challenging a spouse is, I'm gonna, like we have both agreed on who we want to be, we both have agreed on where we want to go. And if y'all haven't got, I've had a dreamy, like what do we want our life to look like? We want to have our own house one day. We want to live in the city or upstate. We want to have three kids or two kids. We want to have three kids and I want to stay at home. So that means we're going to have, here's a math problem we have to solve. We need to have this much income. What are you doing now on the front end? So that when we achieve these things, when we get to these places, we're ready to rock and roll. And that's where you can look in and say, that's why every team, like if you take a professional sports team, they write on the board at the beginning of the year. We want to be champion. And so from that vision we have together, that identity we have, future champion, underneath that, we're gonna start putting in work that we all have to do to on our own so that we can all accomplish this thing together. Otherwise you end up with two people running parallel lives. - Right. - And so you're not wrong to demand from your husband that he stand up and be somebody you can anchor into. You're not wrong for that. And demand doesn't have to be a screaming and a pointing or finger in somebody's chest. It can be a gentle on the couch, looking each other in the eyes saying, "Hey, we made a commitment that we're in this together. "How can I love you well?" So that you can go do the work you need to do to develop this thing called confidence and strength and emotional maturity. - Right. - 'Cause we both have a dream of me being a stay-at-home mom. We both have a dream of us being a two-income family. And right now you keep turning down every job opportunity, every opportunity for advancement, every opportunity for extra hours to make more money so that we can accomplish the dream that we both set in. We both agreed on. And then if he says, "I'm not doing any of that." I don't like hard things, I'm never gonna do hard things. Then the choice goes back into your court. What am I gonna do next? And that's a scary, scary-- - What kind of do you? - Yeah. - I mean, you can leave or you can say, "Okay, here's the reality I'm choosing to stay in." I have a husband who will not do hard things. That means I'm going to have to be extra strong. My vision of wanting to be a stay-at-home mom will end 'cause that will never happen. I will be responsible for the economic of this partnership. I'll be responsible for the childcare in this partnership. And I'll be responsible for a second, third or fourth kid, which in the form of a grown man sit on the couch. But I want you to own all of those choices, not as though they're happening to you. I'm making this choice. - Right. Yeah, I don't envision it ending that way, but I'm happy to know what the tools are if something like that were to happen in any capacity. - Sure, and I'll tell you, I have benefited greatly over 30 years of being with the same person. From my wife saying, "I see something in you "that you don't see. "I'm asking you to go get the help you need "so that you can see what I see." And sometimes that help has been in the form of a workout partner. Sometimes that has been in the form of a group of minute women that I go hang out with just to have friends. Sometimes that's been in the form of a therapist. Sometimes that's been in the form of a spiritual guide. But her being as a writer die being able to see. We're both driving down the highway on our motorcycles and she sees big potholes coming. She loves me enough to say, "Hey, here comes some big potholes." And pay extra attention here. That's her lovingly well. - Right. Yeah, and I think being two years in, I very much understand that the marriage is gonna change because that's what happens as you spend time with one person for hopefully the rest of your life. - That's exactly right, yeah. - So whatever's happening now, I know 10 years down the road, I'll be able to hopefully look back and say like, that was crazy and I'm glad we are where we are. Oh gosh, and dude, I'm like nine versions of myself since I was two years in, at least. Thank God my wife's not married to the guy she was married two years in. Thank God, that guy was a maniac. And so yes, you have reason for great hope and great dreams for who you're gonna become and you're gonna change multiple times, he'll change multiple times, which means your marriage will change multiple times. But I wanna release you from the burden that somehow, you haven't given him confidence. I'll also say, I'll counter myself and say, I do believe that in a marriage relationship, generally speaking, partners will rise, spouses will rise to their partners belief in them. So there's something powerful. You can breathe life into his lungs by looking at him and saying, I believe in you and it breaks my heart that you don't believe in you. I'm asking you for the sake of yourself, for the sake of me, for the sake of our marriage, that you go get the help you need and go put in a series of practices of you regularly doing hard things. If you have reason to believe in him, let him know that. If you have confidence in him, let him know that. If you don't have confidence in him, let him know that. Be honest, 'cause he can feel it if you don't. And then don't be afraid to call him to a higher standard and let him know I'm anchored right in here with you and I'll walk alongside you and I'm gonna do my work too. I'm gonna keep working to get better and better at this thing too. And then he's gonna have some hard choices to make. There's no easy path. Sitting on the couch eating Cheetos is a hard life. It's a hard life to live. And getting out and doing hard things over and over every day. That's a hard life too. It's just choose your heart. One of them, one of those paths is going to get you where you want to go. One of those paths is going to not. That's the algorithm of life. Thanks for the call. Thanks for loving your husband well and wanting to do this right on a free you from ownership of what he has to do next. And also empower you to encourage him to hold him accountable through seeing and knowing and celebrating him regularly when you can so that you can challenge him to call him to a higher standard. That's what love looks like. Thanks for the call. We come back. A couple asks how to support a friend and her children who live with an abusive husband without making their situation more dangerous. We'll be right back. This is an ad from Better Health. Have you ever had a thought or a moment that replays over and over in your head? Maybe it's a worry that wakes you up at 2 a.m. or that awkward interaction you had with your coworker last week or maybe it's some painful or embarrassing thing or things that happened years ago that you just keep replaying over and over and over whatever it is. We've all been there. I've been there too. There's so much stuff taken up space in your brain that you wish you could just shut it all off. 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This book is everything I know about what happened to marriages, how we got here, why fewer people than ever are getting married and for those that are why it feels harder than ever. Answers this question is marriage still worth it and if so, answers this question, how do you do it in the chaos of the 21st century? I'm super proud of this book. I took all the nerd stuff, all thousands of conversations with individuals and with couples and I distilled it down and wrote it in a way that what I would say regular people like me could actually read it and it is for couples who are engaged, couples who are thinking about getting engaged all the way to people who have been married for 20, 30, 40, 50 years who just want to write off into the sunset in the best possible way. It's called Building the Marriage You Want. It's available for pre-sale right now. They will ship to your door. They'll be there January 26th and if you pre-order it now really, really helps me out. This is you doing me a solid. So go to johndolony.com or click the link in the show notes. It's got to pence a call of Florida and talk to David. Hey David, what's up, man? What's up, Dr. D? What's up? How are we doing? Bro, so great to be talking to you. You two are my boy, not in a weird way. You're my boy, blue. All right. So I just am seeing this on the board is your wife coming on to? She's coming on. Excellent. Alright. So let me pull her up here. We'll pull up Christina. Hey, Christina. What's up? Hey. Hi. Hi. All right. So I've got both of you on. Awesome. David and Christina from pence a call, Florida. So whoever wrote in. Go first. What's up? Okay. I wrote in. I'll read my question. All right. My wife and I are close friends with a married couple with five kids and another on the way. The husband is verbally and emotionally abusive and has been physically abusive in the past. He also has a history of becoming aggressive and violent when drinking. And he recently started drinking again after several years of sobriety outside of the home. He's incredibly charismatic and friendly. And right now he doesn't seem interested in getting help. We love this family and feel a help us watching our friend and her children live this way. We're afraid that confronting him or pushing her to leave could actually make things more dangerous. What is our responsibility as their friends? How do we support her and the kids without accidentally putting them at greater risk? And great, great question. I've lots of thoughts here, but I'm going to make sure I'm clear headed. How close of a friend are you David with this guy? I wouldn't say we're that close. You know, the my wife and his wife are really close. I feel like me and him are super close and mainly for the fact that you know, I kind of. Yeah, like just just hearing everything coming from his wife, it. I'm not, you know, too thrilled to get too close to him. Sure. So Christina, tell me about how this wife has communicated her experiences to you. I took a couple years for her to begin opening up. That things are not the greatest at home. And. Started to share a little bit more over time, but kind of shares it nonchalantly. Like this is, this is the way it is. This is how our life is. And this, this is the way it's going to be is the kind of what the way that she expresses it. I share my opinions and how that is not how a happy marriage should be. But that leads us to the question of she feels extremely stuck and thinks there's really there's no way out. Okay. So I've got a couple of just first principles that I live by and that is if I know of a child or somebody who's unsafe. I will get involved in whatever way I think it's going to be the most helpful. Sometimes that is confrontation. Sometimes that is having a hard direct conversation. Sometimes that's called the police. So first principle number one is safety reigns over everything. Safety reigns over our relationship. Safety reigns over you promise you won't tell anybody. Safety especially especially when kids are involved. Safety reigns over everything. And so there's something powerful that I've repeated multiple times in my adult life. I need to tell you about something. Alright, if you tell me that just needs you to know that if I know if kids getting hurt, if I know if you're getting hurt, I'm going to get involved. Just know that before you tell me anything. I'm real direct with that stuff. The second part of it is I'm really open about people knowing like I'll show up in the middle of the night. You're welcome into my house. And so letting this woman know you have an out. You choosing to be like to be frozen here and make no mistake. She's in a prison, right? Her leaving would indeed blow up everything. She may be very economically under the gun here. It's really easy to be like, you should leave. Alright, I got five kids plus one on the way. Where am I going to live? Who am I going to eat? What food am I going to eat? There's very real penalties to especially in abusive situations like this, to women just like. It's easy to bark from the sidelines. It's a hard thing to be in the middle of it. And so letting her know to whatever you and David decide whatever you all decide will be willing to do. Like here's a safe path. And if you ever have to get out, if you're ever unsafe, if you ever come so drunk, etc. Here's a place for us to go. I'm interested in. You mentioned multiple times David about making things worse. What does that mean? Well, we're just, you know, we're trying to be like really, really safe in that. But he's been a, you know, actually like physically abusive years ago. Do the do the drinking. If, you know, basically if we, you know, hope the bear. Is he going to get physically abusive again? Could we be the cause of that? So, we're kind of. Ticking around this, it feels like. Yeah, we don't want to make that home life worse because. Right. Yeah, he's different out in public. And we don't see version. When he's at home. Yeah. Yeah, it's completely different behind closed doors from what we've been told. Christina, what is she at? ask you for, has she asked you for support or help? - I would say no. I wouldn't say she's actually asked. She will share what's going on and we just kind of talk about it. But I feel like we never get to a resolution of like, okay, now what do we do? - So I think there's a moment when you begin to start saying, I'm feeling the need to intervene. What would you like me to do? - I think she feels very hopeless right now. I don't even think she knows how to ask for help. - Okay. - She said it herself. She's like, I have all these kids. I'm not gonna push my kids on other people. They're my responsibility. Even though we've reassured her, you can come here. We will help, we will help in any way. - Yeah. - Yeah, you know, we've definitely talked to her about her offer her health and the worst case scenarios but I guess what we're wondering is what would we do if, you know, say she just left the house and she said, I'm gone for good and then, you know, how can we support her there? What if she comes here, like, what, I mean, not to make it all about us, but, you know, yeah, we're just kind of lost as well as her. - Yeah, and how to still support faithfully and appropriately from afar while she isn't home. - Right, so I, I mean, the first and most important thing is y'all two get together and say, here's the limits of our support. Like, we will make room. We have the room to take five plus one, five kids plus a newborn plus a, a mom, and we have the ability to do that for six months for a year. And, or we have the ability to do that for 48 hours, we could, we could bunk our kids up and we could figure it out for 48 hours and then we need to go to another, like, to a shelter or to a place. We are able to give her $10,000 or we're able to give her $100. So you coming up with, I will pick you up and I will take you to 10 counseling sessions and I will pay for it. Right, so you coming up, y'all two coming up with, here's the, here's the bounds of how we can support you. Otherwise, it ends up, everybody's really nervous to take a first step or not a first step or I don't wanna promise too much, but I haven't talked to David yet or David's like, we'll do anything and then Christian and you're like, yeah, but that's not reality, right? So it's y'all two getting the government saying, here is what we would be able to do. And then sitting down with your friend and saying, David and I have talked, here is what our offer is. Take it any time. And also telling your friend, if I hear that your husband is drinking and becoming physically abusive again, I'm calling in all of the authorities and I'm gonna be honest about what I've been told because I'm worried about you and I'm worried about your kids. - Good. Yeah, we definitely need to lay the law on that one right there. - And there's something in, it's a really tricky balance, okay? So I don't wanna minimize it. I've done it so many times that it's become second nature, but in teaching this, it's a very tricky balance. Is I want you as the person who's a victim here to understand that you are in the driver's seat because abuse takes away a person's agency and I want you to know with me, you have full agency. And I'm moving also. I've got full agency too, right? And so it's a tricky balance to say to look at somebody and I'm gonna use a really egregious example, okay? - Yeah. - I've sat with somebody, multiple young people and said, who's acutely suicidal and I've said, you're not killing yourself today. Here's your two choices. You can go to impatient here, you can go to impatient here. And in a way, I've taken away their agency and in another way, when they feel there's only one option, I've taken that option off the table and given them two brand new options and also said, I'll be right here with you, right? And so it's a weird tricky balance of, I'm taking away this agency, but I'm giving you this agency. And that's in this situation, you looking at her and saying, if I hear this again, I want you to know, I'm gonna call the police. I can't keep, you wouldn't say this to her, but you've now become a person that she's holding the center block and she hands it to you and says, you carry this for me. - Well, I get worried that if I say that, she won't share with me anymore. Just so, we can avoid that conflict. - She's an autonomous person. I always assume people are asking for support. Because here's the other truth, you can't continue to be her garbage dump. It's impacting your marriage, it's impacting your emotional well-being too. And so you saying, here's, 'cause you've got autonomous agency also, here's my plan moving forward. If you tell me these things, I've got a call, I can't let, I can't know that kids are getting harmed. I can't know that a pregnant woman is getting harmed. I love you enough to have you not like me. Right? And let's put it, let's play this out. If he comes home drunk and puts his hands on her and you call the police and they do a full investigation and arrest him and she gets put in a one bedroom apartment with five kids, she may 100% blame you. You did this to us. Look what you've done. And you'll have to have the fortitude and strength and support from your husband and your community to say, I didn't do that. I responded to a thing. And I'm willing, I've always had to, this is a story, I have to tell myself on repeat, I'm willing for you to not like me for the rest of your life. And you be alive to not like me. All those are hard. Choose your heart. That's it. But Christina, no, being a great friend is not, is sometimes intervening. Often it's intervening. But it's being really clear and honest and direct about here's what this is going to be. That makes sense. But I do believe a hard conversation, not hard. That's not what I was saying, a loving direct conversation about, hey, you told me this stuff for the last two years, last three years, last five years, he's drinking again. David and I made a plan. Here's the situation. If he puts his hands on you and you let me know that, I'm going to call the police. And she might call you and let you know because she can't stomach calling the police. Uh-huh. But thank God she's got you. Yeah. And you'll do the dirty work for her. Because that's what love looks like sometimes. And you'll also take all the blowback that comes from having called the police. Yeah, it sounds like a good plan. No, and let me hear you say this. None of this will feel good. No. Other than her clear eyed knowing, I love you this much when nobody else around you, not even your husband loves you like this, I'm going to love you enough to say, I'm going to prioritize your safety and your kid safety over you liking me, over our friendship, over everything. I love you that much. And I'll just say, I've had that conversation. I can't even tell you how many times I've had that conversation. And I can't remember a time in my mind when it's come back in an awful way. Not two, three, four, five years later. Yeah. Like you'll think me later, maybe I don't ever say those words 'cause then you sound like the parent who's like hitting their kid and I'm like, this is for you. Like don't say that. I would never like to say it, but I'm saying I've walked alongside young people who had to get put in psychiatric institutions and I've met with their families and they were not happy. And I've received their phone calls two, three, four years later. When they get new jobs, when they have their first kid, when they get married and I'm sure there's folks out there that if you say my name, they hate me. Hate me. I hate that guy. Great, that's fine. But I know I went to bed with the intent of keeping people I care for safe. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And also, Christina, you have to reconcile. She's a grown adult. and if she doesn't want your help, short of violence, right? If he talks to her in an ugly way, or he's like talks to his kids in an ugly way or whatever. She doesn't want your input. It may be that you choose to distance yourself from that friendship. 'Cause I can't sit here and drink the poison with you, and it's affecting me as well. - Yeah. - Yeah, but, you know, John, like, we do want to, like we don't want to shut her out completely when it comes to that, like if she had a, you know, hard night because he was just really, really nasty, and she needs somebody to talk to, right? So, that's what it's been up to this point is verbal. And, you know, we obviously like, even like to help them now, however we can, before it gets to a physical point. - Right. - And we're not really sure like how to handle that either because, again, like, he kind of hides all of this. And if we don't know like what would happen, if we even confronted him on his language, or, you know, just his behavior at home. - I mean, it's a tough, like, we're cornering him, you know? - Well, and yeah, and it's a tough, tough place to be because I've also been in numerous situations where there was two sides to that story. - Yeah, yeah, that's very true. - And so, if you don't have a relationship with him, - I'm not, I'm not, but, you know. - I see, not. - No, I have an, I have an imp, my impulse is, I'm gonna believe her, that's always my impulse. - Yeah. - And I'm also not just gonna run rough shot over people until I've sat down and had a conversation with him. - Yeah, for sure. - And yeah, if he finds out she's telling other people, stuff, whether it's true or not, true, yeah, that 100% cause problems in the house. No question about it. - That's happened a few times, and we've gotten his, well, you know, again, it's coming from his wife, but his reaction, and obviously it really sets him off. - Sure, but he won't, he still won't reach out to anybody. - Sure, like, he's not remorseful at things. - Yeah, so, I mean, if you don't really have a relationship, either of y'all really have a relationship with him. So, that's not really an entry point, unless it's calling the police. Your entry point is with her and letting her know, here's how we're gonna love you, here's how we're gonna support you. And here's the, here's how far we'll go, here's how well we can love you. And we can't make you walk this path, but we will tell you, we're gonna call the police if we know he's hurting you. And we're gonna tell you, we don't believe, this is how people in a loving relationship talk to each other, but I can't make you leave the house. If you ever want to, here's where you come, here's how long you can stay, and here's how we'll support you and your kids. And there is a place where you come up with this is the best we can do. And if she as an adult doesn't want any further intervention, it's very difficult for you to insert yourself into that situation without causing all sorts of collateral damage. And that's when I always want people to be careful. There's always other size to a conversation. There's always different interpretations, yada yada yada, it just gets messier messier messier the further you go. And I only know this 'cause I've done it over and over and over and over and over again for decades. So, here's what we can do, here's what we're prepared to do, here's what we won't tolerate, and here's what we will ask you to do, but we can't make you. And that's when you feel both empowered to put everything down, be clear with each other, be direct, and powerless. Like there's only so far our influence can go. And that's heartbreaking. Thanks for the call, thanks for being a couple who loves your neighbor well. And it really wants a pregnant woman and their kids to be safe. That's noble. And we need more people like y'all to out in the world. We'll be right back. All right, you've heard me talking about it for a month, and it's official. My brand new book, "Building the Marriage You Want" is available for pre-order. Picture me sitting at the table with you and your spouse helping you both take the next right step in your marriage. That's what this book is, me sitting at the table with you both walking you through what to do in your marriage. I get into all of it. Why marriage is so hard in the 21st century, why I think marriage still matters. And I'll give you a playbook for the stuff that trips most couples up, communication, conflict, sex, money, being married with kids, all of it. Nothing is off the table. If you like this show, you're going to love this book. Pre-order building the marriage you want today for $24.99 and get over $100 and pre-order bonus items. Go to johndalony.com. All right, Kelly, something awesome happened. What is it? All right, this is from Kyle and Maya in Orlando, Florida. She says, "Hi, John and team. We met in college, and the first time she saw me, she actually called dibs to her friends. We started dating that summer, but when life, when real life hit, everything blew up. We couldn't communicate, express emotions, set boundaries, or navigate conflict. So we broke up. After several months apart, we ran into each other and against our friends, better judgment. We started dating again. I listened to your show for years, and I introduced her to it. Together, we used your show and knowledge as a guide to co-create the relationship we wanted. You taught us how to work through trauma, express emotion, serve each other, turn pictures into words, and remember that none of this is an excuse. We just got married at 23, and I can truly say that we owe you so much of our marriage. You helped change our family tree. We hope to shake your hand someday and thank you in person. Until then, thank you from afar. God bless you all. Fun fact, my mother-in-law, Ken Lee, was Sheila and Hank's guide on their recent hiking trip in Colorado. - No way! - Yes. - That's pretty wild. It's a very small world out there. Yeah, my wife and son went, my son and I are always taking these wild, hunting adventures. And my wife was like, "I wanna do something like that, "but she doesn't like hunting." So they went on like a track or something this summer with a group of parents and teens, and they hiked up to the top of Colorado and were gone for a long time. But that's awesome. Very cool. That was a nice, as you know, we've gotten a long time. - Really was. - Man, that was a lot of nice things all in a row. Especially after a tough show, I know. I know, it's your tough show. Thank you so much, y'all, and I wish all an amazing awesome 70-year-plus marriage. Love you guys, bye. (upbeat music)