Caller: “I Slept With My Best Friend’s Wife”

[MUSIC] Should I write a letter to my former best friend and explain the situation around the affair I had with his wife? The part that kills me the most is I didn't have the integrity to stop it. I didn't have the integrity to come clean about it, had to get caught. [MUSIC] >> What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Doctor of John Deloney Show. Coming to you from National Tennessee, sitting down with you, whether you're driving, whether you are going for a run with your headphones on, going for a walk, cleaning up your house, whatever it is you're doing, however it is you're pulling up a seat with us, I'm so grateful that you are here. As you know, on this show, I take real calls from real people, from all over the world who are struggling with their mental and emotional health, with their marriages, with doing the next right thing in their life. Man, I'm so grateful that you're with us. I'm so grateful to the people who call. This is a wild time to be alive. I believe with all of my guts, all my guts, that the solution is pulling up a seat and sitting with real people, listening to real voices and figuring out what are you going to do next? Figuring that out together. So you want to be on this show, click the link in the show notes. I would love to have you. Let's go out to Orlando, Florida and talk to our first caller, Jack. Hey, Jack, what's up, man? Hey, Dr. How are you? I'm good, brother. How are you, man? Good. Good. So what you got going on? Well, my question is, should I write a letter to my former best friend and explain the situation around the affair I had with his wife, not excuse it, not make excuses for my actions. But the fact is, I want him to know I miss his friendship, and I don't expect him to be my friend again. I just, well, I'll leave the question to that and I'll let you ask your question. And hey, listen, I mean, spoiler alert, like you know you messed up. I want to honor the fact that you called in. That's a hard thing to do. Yeah, so I appreciate you. And I appreciate you like trying to think through ways. How do I make this huge mess? How do I make it right? I appreciate you trying to figure it out. So I'm not going to be here beating you up, okay? Thank you. So tell me what happened, man. Well, the short story is that I was going through some mental health issues, anxiety, depression, burned out at work. And he and I were the closest to friends and his wife was, you know, we were friends too. I mean, we just clicked like two P's in a pod, we were just friends for years. But it was their marriage had gone through a number of rocky areas. Mine was strong. My wife didn't do anything wrong. And I would say was the lack of boundaries accompanied with my mental state that I about the situation to spiral out of control until the point where things progressed and where they did and the part that kills me the most is I didn't have the integrity to stop it. I didn't have the integrity to come clean about it had to get caught. And now the situation is both families are still intact years later. But, you know, I'll deal with the consequences and the mental language, if you will, that I go through about my own failings and I'm just grateful that God has helped me to work through that for myself. How long ago did this happen? It's been almost nine years. Nine years. So, what resurfaced it now? It's always been about to over the last five, five, six years. I've been getting stronger in my face. My mental health is returned. I'm back to being me again. And the old me would have never done, when I say the old me, I'm talking the old me of 20 years ago. Would have never done something like this. Be trade, be trade a family, trade my family, be trade his family, be trade his trust in his friendship. And a big part of my healing, if you will, besides the fact of what God has done in my life, my wife has done, I certainly deserve nothing from her, but she's been a godsend, was getting back to that point of my life where I had standards and I had principles that I lived by. And when I look at the failure that it would never have happened then, and what happened later, I feel like I need to at least, you know, one, take 100% responsibility because I'm not pointing fingers at anybody else, I could have stopped this, I didn't. But more to the point is, you know, just letting him know that not a day goes by, why don't think about him, the family that I hurt, his family and my, my family knows, we're, we're good now, our family is good, his family is good for what I know. But just to let him know that I appreciated his friendship, I miss his friendship and while I don't expect it, that we will ever be friends again and I accept that. I want him to know how special his friendship was up until the point that I made the decisions that I made. But the real question I have is am I opening up old wounds for him by doing that? Should I just let this go? And the reason I'm asking you is because every past, last, and every counselor where they're evenly divided, 50, 50, 50. Well, I'll be right. So all of them will be wrong. So just know there we go. But here's, here's what I'm hearing, okay? And like I tell everyone, dude, I could be way off. Okay. Here's what I'm hearing. In, in the clarity of the past, right? Whenever we're looking at things in the rear view mirror, a few things we know from psychological research are true. Okay. Thing number one is our exact memories are almost never exact memories. Number two are exact reasons are almost never exact reasons, especially eight, nine, ten years ago. Our motives aren't exactly the motives that we remember because it's filtered through a decade of new experiences, growth, changes, et cetera, et cetera. And so what I'm hearing the way you're talking about this is this thing happened. This, this other thing was happening to you, and you could have stopped it. But this other thing with all these external forces happened upon you. And then even the life since then has been other external forces. God, your wife, all these other things. And where I would love to see, where I'd love to see you land is, and there's a reason why is to kind of clear the smoke of all these things and say, I made a series of choices. And in both, I made a series of choices to end up in the bed of my best friend's wife. And this is where the ownership gets really important as part of recovery is yes, you've submitted to God. Excellent. You have asked for your wife's forgiveness and she has given it to you. Excellent. And you, my brother, appear to have made a bunch of significant minute by minute, hour by hour changes in your life over the last eight, nine, ten years. Is that true? Yes, sir. Okay. So if you can take full ownership of, yes, I was struggling with anxiety and depression. I talked to millions of people who struggle with anxiety and depression, and they don't all cheat on their wives, right? And so if you can say, I was going through some things, and I chose not to do the things I needed to do to stay well and whole. And then I chose to do X, Y and Z. And since then, I've chosen to submit to forgiveness. I've chosen to walk back in the doors of a church and be honest about it this time. I've chosen to accept forgiveness. I've chosen to work on my mental and emotional health, my physical health. I've lost weight. All those things I want to empower you is what I want to do, okay? Because here's what I hear. I hear a man who is is, is life is still happening to you? Both the bad and the good. And there comes a point in everyone's life when they feel like life is happening to them. And they don't have any autonomy or agency in the bad stuff or in the good stuff that they need other external forces to continue to make them be okay. Do you know what I'm saying? And so what It sounds like to me is, you still haven't taken full ownership on either side of this ledger. I did this thing, and I've done these things. And I wasn't the man I wanted to be. I did some bad things. I heard a lot of people that I loved and cared about. And since then, I've been really working hard in service to myself so that I can be in service to those I love and care about. And this dragon is always gonna be out there. Yes, I think you trying to reach out to him is about you, not about him. - Okay. - Tell me I'm wrong. - You're well. - That you have this inner. - Exactly what the other said. - This inner dragon that you are desperate to quit breathing fire on you. And maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, if he reaches back out and says, "I forgive you, it'll go away." And A, that, it won't make it better. - Right. - And, I wouldn't want it. I'm thinking of my four or five closest best friends on the planet. If they slept with my wife, I wouldn't want to hear from. - Yeah. - I would want to be about my recovery and moving forward. - Okay. Then that tells me what I need to know. If your friend reaches out to you and says, "I forgive you," then that to me sounds like a really powerful. Like, if you had written this letter six months after this happened, two weeks after this happened, if you'd gone and knocked on his door and risk it and your teeth knocked out and said, "Hey, I gotta look you in the eye and say I messed up." - Yeah. - That's one thing. Ten years later, feels like you still haven't fully gotten the driver's seat of your own life. - Yeah, he and I did exchange text messages in the days following and I did apologize. And it was a sincere apology. And he said, "I've already forgiven you. It's tough as it is. I've already forgiven you." - And I'll say-- - And I asked him, "Could we meet?" And he says, "Probably not a good idea right now." - Yeah, and I'll say, that was a pleasant exchange of information that wasn't an apology. And that wasn't forgiveness. Because it wasn't, yeah, I just, I don't find value in relational connectivity via text message. It's a good way to like check something off a box, like to check some off a list. If you want, man, I'm torn here, man. So I'm thinking about this in real time 'cause I believe in redemption and I believe in restoration. Or I wouldn't do this job, right? And I also believe in sometimes the bravest, most courageous thing to do is to quietly walk away. And after this-- - I just went to some others who told me as well. - And that means you are gonna have to take ownership of healing from the wounds you caused. Okay. - Have you written the letter to him and not sent it? - Yes. - Okay. - Tell me the contents of that letter. - Essentially it's what I, you share with you that I was, I started off by saying the file, you know, what I'm gonna tell you who does not, it's not a attempt to be an excuse, it's not a attempt to justify because I was wrong in every aspect of this. But I wanted to put some context and what's happened since then. - And what I would tell you is, is almost always, you know what? I won't say always because there's always, there are always things that somebody will bring up and I'm like, well, you gotta point there. Almost always on something this major, the context doesn't matter. - Yeah, not for him. And so I'm gonna completely change course here on you and tell you a thing I was trained when it came to letting people know really bad news. Okay. When I used to be a part of a team that would knock on doors and tell people that their loved ones had died or that their kid had passed away, the temptation, it's so awkward, it's so hard, it's so uncomfortable that it's real easy to say, hey, listen, you know, it was raining tonight and then the clouds are really big so there was no light in the sky and you know, we had that power outage over there and it's still raining and it ends up being a giant distraction from looking somebody in the eye knocked on the door and saying, there has been a car wreck in your husband is dead. You know what I'm saying? The context there doesn't matter. What matters is this big bad thing that happened. And so that makes sense. I don't know that the context would be helpful here 'cause if I'm him, I'm saying, I don't care about your anxiety and depression. You were my best friend, you sub of my wife. I don't care what you were going through, you don't do that and he would have a point, right? He'd be right. And so I think for me, the thing is if you had to reach out to him and you were going to reach out to him, it would be as simple as I did this thing and I'm sorry, 10 years later, I'm sorry. And when you distill it down that way, I don't know what that would solve for him. I don't know what that would solve for you. - Yeah. - And so going back to the owning everything, there's something to be said for ya, if I look back in the rear-view mirror, I can kind of piece together. Here's what happened, here's what I was going through and all that stuff, all that stuff is true, all that stuff is honest in some version of it. I slept with my best friend's wife. Then I lied about it. And yes, I'm grateful for my newfound faith, I'm grateful for my spouse, I'm grateful 10 years later that our marriage's back together. And I've been doing a bunch of work, minute by minute, hour by hour to change my life to become a man that keeps his promises to himself and to others, a man that I can look at the mirror and respect so that others can anchor into me. And I want you to own that too. I'm proud of the man you've become in the aftermath of this horrible thing you did, I'm proud of you. It's hard. It's hard not just to fold up under a wet blanket of shame and just never come out. But you've continued to show your face, you've continued to look your wife in the eye, you've continued to do the things you need to repair your relationship, and I'm proud of you for that. And at some point, I want you to set down the guilt, quick carrying that center block around. You did a bad thing and you're not, that is it make you forever bad. And you can only do that for yourself. I'm promising you if he writes you a letter back or writes you an email back and says, I've still forgive you, brother. I don't want to talk to you anymore, but I wish you the best. It's not going to be the big ray of light that you think it's going to be. If he came back and hugged you and said, I love you, I miss you, I want our friendship to kick back up again. By the way, I'm still married to that same woman. Man, that's a whole other university I would have to, like the resolution you're looking for, I believe is in the middle of your chest. And if you believe in this new faith you have that God's forgiven you, if you look at your wife and believe she's forgiven you, the last, and you believe him, he texted you back, I'll forgive you. I don't want to see you, but I forgive you. The last person you've got to deal with is you. And 10 years later, my hope for you is that you look yourself in the mirror and forgive yourself and then get about living life to the fullest, loving as well as you can. Thanks for the call, my brother. So yeah, my recommendation is, don't send the letter. My recommendation is to exhale, make peace, and then be about finding new best friends. Thank you for the call, brother. When we come back, a man asks how to address a sexist remark from a senior leader after failing to speak up. We'll be right back. The advancement of AI has made it easier than ever for scammers to get a hold of your personal information. And with technology like voice matching, scammers can now use what they know about you in ways that are almost impossible to detect. The scammers already have your home address, your kids' names, your past jobs, and listen, AI is helping them get better at using that information against you. That's where delete me comes in. Delete me goes to hundreds of data broker sites that exist just to buy your personal information and sell it for profit without your consent, and they remove your information. And then they keep removing it month after month. 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I've done the same thing, but here's one thing I've learned. One of the best ways you can slow down and work on being present long before the holiday season hits is staying grounded in your spiritual life. Howl is the number one Christian Prayer Meditation App in the world, and I use it almost every day of my life for that very reason, to ground myself in my spiritual life in my spiritual practices. Good mornings, it's five minutes on the drive to work, some nights it's a sleep prayer before bed, whatever the moment is, howl helps me practice presence. Before the holidays takes everything from us and makes us all super busy, I'm going to stay committed, and I'm going to invite you to stay committed to practice being present with howl. You can try howl for free for 90 days at howl.com/deloney. Right now, and howl will be free for you to try through the holiday season. That's howl.com/deloney. All right, we are back. Hey, don't forget, man, it would be such a gift. If you're going to get my brand new book building, the marriage you want, pre-order it now, pre-ordering helps everything with distribution, with getting the book in front of more people. It helps to me. It helps everybody. And I will eventually mail you to the book when it comes out. So, if you will go to johndaloney.com, pre-order the book, building the marriage you want. It's everything I know about marriage. It's me pulling up a seat at your kitchen table with you by yourself or with you and your spouse, and talking through everything I know about conflict, about communication, new ways to do conflict, new ways to do communication about being married with kids, about money in your marriage, about sex in your marriage, about all of it. Building the marriage you want available for pre-order right now at johndaloney.com. Go check it out. It's got to Portland, Oregon and talk to Alan. What's up, Alan? Hey, brother. Hey, john. Good morning. Good morning. You got it, man. Thanks for calling. What's going on? Yeah. So, a couple of weeks ago now, I was working on a project. I'm a junior, junior level manager at a small company, and we had a couple senior leaders from our corporate office visiting, and we were in my office working on a project, and one of the senior leaders, speaking about a vice president of the company, happened to insinuate that she got her position by wearing high heels and short skirts and low cut tops. And it really took me a back, because I'm pretty young, I'm 30. I don't come from a culture where we talk about women like that, so I kind of froze a little bit, and I eventually said something like, well, I'm going to assume that's not why she got her position, and then I redirected the conversation back to our work we were working on. But ever since then, it's just kind of been sitting on me as if I've done everything I should have done, and everything I needed to do. Nobody brought it up again, nobody said anything about it, there was another leader in the room, and him and I haven't talked about it, so I'm just wondering inside my chest and inside my head, whether I should say something to somebody, or if I said enough, or if I should just move on and, yeah, I figured you've had some experience with this somehow some way. Yeah, I mean, I think everybody has, and let's take a sexist remark off the table and just put any remark on the table that somebody, we respect somebody who's got power over us, somebody who we report to, somebody who's like a grandparent, right? These have people in their life say something, and we find ourselves in a quandary, right? Do we hit them in the mouth, do we end go to jail, is that the right thing to do, is the right thing to do to make sure we say our piece is the right thing to do to go find another place to work, because I don't want to be a part of a place that has leadership like that. And in my experience, there's layers to it, right? I know folks who, some of the best people in the world who say something stupid, they're trying to be funny, and it's just dumb, and I know people, and so I can look at them and say, I know that person, they said something stupid, and I'm not even going to address it. It's a waste of my time, it's a waste of their time. They knew as soon as they came out of the mouth, that was stupid, right? I know that. And then I know other folks, times I've made the decision professionally, and personally, I'm not going to be around that person. And so that means I got to go find a job, or that means I am going to stop going to this particular thing or hanging out in this particular area, right? So let me ask you, like, the only word I have here is fantasy. You know what I mean. I'm not talking about sexual fantasy. I hear you. What fantasy have you had? Like how often have you replayed this, and then, but you've like, like, reimagined what you should have said, or should have done in a perfect world. What would you have liked to have seen the version of yourself, like, rise up? What would that have looked like? So, context, I, in the moment, when I did say what I said, I didn't make eye contact. I didn't stand up and look at him. I didn't address him by name. And I think the idealized version that I've replayed in my head is that I would have maybe been more direct and more explicit in my, in saying, that's not okay to say. And, you know, and I was in my office, my physical office, so I think I probably would have had the grounds to say, you can't say that, at least in this office, you can't talk like that. And so I think, I think in my idealized head, I would have been more direct. I would have made more eye contact, and I would have been more explicit about my opposition to his viewpoint, what he said. And I've tried hard not to replay it in my head, because I listened to you quite a bit, I know it's not always helpful, but I would have replayed a million times, a million times. Like, I'm shoving him, and he like takes a swing at me, and then I take him down, and like, no, I would have replayed a million times, and I would have been the hero every time, right? >> Oh, I love being the hero in my own head, it's so easy. And I, yeah, I definitely thought about, if I was in a different context, I know how I would have reacted. If we were at a bar, if we were at a bar, I would have said, hey, you know, shut up or something, pretty direct, I would have been pretty straight with him. And if we were in a social situation, it would have been the same. But for me, I felt very uneasy because of the power dynamics, and being in a professional setting, I just hadn't encountered it in that context before. >> Well, and let's go one step deeper, okay? >> Sure. >> Sure, microphones with people all over the country, in front of millions of people. All times, somebody has said something, and I've frozen. And in my head, I'm thinking, I'll address this off-air, or I will come back after a break, or I will never do this show again, or I know how that's going to look, but I know this person, I don't know what they actually meant, right? And every time I've had to make a choice, well, I never do this particular thing again. Or, have I, is it, did I get a layer of wisdom here? Because I think it's fair to say I got caught off guard. And I think part of growing wiser is learning, if this happens again, here's what I will do. And consequences be damned, or like whatever. And so I guess what I want to do is, A, honor the fact that you said anything, I want to honor the fact that you found yourself as a young professional caught off guard, and that's life, right? And now you've made a conscious decision that if this happens again, here's what I'm going to do next. And you're still wrestling with, do I even want to work here? Yeah, right. Do I want to work for leaders who treat people like this, who talk behind their back like this? And, and I'm absolutely right, and to go even deeper, do I want to work at a place where I feel like if I do speak up, I'm not sure anything is really going to happen, you know? if I for you. Nothing will. Yeah. Yeah. Except you might never get a promoter again. Yep. Right. Exactly. That's that's what I'm afraid of. It's so I think that's a great moment for everybody. And like I say, I've left jobs plural because I don't want to X Y and Z. Right. I don't want I don't want I can't reconcile this with me. Right. And I've also had conversations behind closed doors where people have apologized and said that won't happen again. And that's a place that I'm okay with staying because like you just said, I want to give people grace when they say something stupid. They try to make a joke and it's not funny. They like go too far, etc. And they're willing to take ownership of what they said and how I hurt people. Right. And so can I throw something else at you? Sure. And this is completely unfair what I'm about to do. Okay. But it was unfair when it was done to me. So I'm passing it on to you. Okay. Understood. Understood. I'm ready. So there was a situation at a university where I worked. And long story short, there was a I took a stand on a particular issue with a particular protecting a particular student. And I felt really strongly about it. Yeah. And I felt so strongly about it that I spoke up aggressively and the thing still happened. But I had a leader who was honored me enough to say, I want to I want to appreciate I appreciate your stand on this. And so I'm going to take this from you. The thing's still going to happen. But I'm taking it from you because I appreciate your like you're taking a hard stand here and I believe that you believe you're right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And that wasn't good enough for me. And I think I was about, I don't know where all that was. Anyway, I went to a a mentor of mine, a person that I have deep, deep, deep respect for. And I sat down and laid it all out. And I'm going to tell you what this person said to me because it's haunted me and it's changed the direction of my life. Okay. Okay. And when I say haunted, it haunted me, homie. So let's buckle up. Well, and that makes me a little nervous to go for you. Should he said this? He said, after hearing all of this and he looked me dead in the eye and a small table we were sitting at. And he said, I want to let you know you're free to go. I think you're right. I think what's being done is wrong. I think how it's being handled is wrong. I think what's being done to this individual is wrong. I think what's being done to you is wrong. In the position it's putting you in is wrong. You're free to go. I want to release you from this because I had this big. But then he said this. He said, but I want you to remember, if everyone who has justification to walk out the door leaves, that student will still be here. Yeah. And so if every, if there's a senior leader who is ugly to talk's bad about women behind their back, and everyone walks out and says, I'm not being a part of this, which you have every right to do. Hear me say that. And I have done that. She'll still be there. And so will he. Yeah. And there's something, especially in this world of canceling of, I can't talk to you. I can't buy coke products because of how the CEO voted one time like it's so gotten so categorical and so out of control, right? And everything in our culture is guilty until proven innocent. Not the other way around. You can just lob anything you want at any time with no context. And it just is, right? Yeah. I have found a personal profound mission in personal relationships and professional situations in uncomfortable situations where the boldest most courageous thing for me personally is all hell. Yeah. I must stay. And every time this comes up, I'm going to challenge it. Exactly. So you fire me. Absolutely. And then it inside of me, it gives me that strength that I thought I was getting by fantasizing about winning some argument, right? Absolutely. And so I'm going to be a part of cultural change. Yeah. I, I hear that. And I, I think in my idealized version of moving forward is I would be the, you know, what's that phrase? Be the change you want to see in the world, right? Yeah. I guess wrestling with it is, you know, the big, the big thing weighing on my heart is, do I try to, do I try to make change now by making a lot of waves or do I stay and be an anchor point of, you know, of correct behavior and correct attitude and, and be an example as opposed to being a, I don't know, making a big stink about it and trying to, trying to see what happens, but you're right. I just honor the fact that you're wrestling with this. I, in my personal life, then I don't want to make my story about you, man. Mm-hmm. I have found more strength, more interpersonal strength, interpersonal strength. And more often than not saying, I'm going to stay. And when I no longer believe I can be a positive agent of change or of culture from the inside out, and I'm talking about a single friendship, I'm talking about the company where I work, I'm talking about the church I go to, like, then it may be time for me to go. Yeah. But sometimes the most courageous thing is to stay. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So best of luck to you. Sorry. Hey, no, it's, it's a, it's a weird, weird gray area situation. So I really appreciate you with them on it. And I like something about listening to you. Something about me likes you. Gritting your teeth and kind of smile in a little bit and saying, yeah, I must stay. Yeah. And I'm going to keep my eyes wide open for men who try to run over these amazing women employees that I work with. Exactly. And I'm going to be wise about it, not stupid, and not, I'm not going to stoop to their level. Exactly. But I must say. I just want, I just want to make sure I'm, I'm creating a positive environment for everybody around me. And I think part of that is addressing or, you know, making sure it's, it's not, it's known that that's not environment I want to create. And but listen, make that and the way to go about it and the way to go about it is what I've been wrestling with. So I appreciate your clarity. You bet. And that's, it's been helpful. I want you to make whatever change you're going to make from a position of sturdiness and stability, not from a position of reaction. Yeah. And so there may be a place where you wisely, and it caught you off guard. So you were surprised and the surprise happened. Yeah. But there may be a, um, sometimes barking in that moment isn't the right thing to do. Yeah. Sometimes it's closing the door in the office and saying, Hey, that didn't happen again. Yeah. Right. And there's much more power and control than there is into reaction. I think our whole world is reactive. I couldn't agree more. And um, I think that was one reason I wanted to reach out to you is because after I replayed it a couple hundred thousand times, but I wanted to, uh, I wanted to not be, I wanted to not be reactive, but I also wanted to be considerate and thoughtful. If I, if I choose with my next, uh, with the next right choice, as you say. Yeah. So I'm going to give you the same wisdom I got. You're free to go. Yeah. Find a new job, find a place where you feel like you're more aligned with values and whatever. And remember that if you leave both she and he will still be there. Yeah. Right. And so say what you're going to say, do what you're going to do, but do it from a position of this is the man I want to be. Yep. Absolutely. Right. And if you have to say the hard thing and the hard thing may cost you your job, then say the hard thing. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, yeah, it's, um, yeah, it's not a fun, fun situation. No, it's, uh, by your hand, but in your lap. Right. Exactly. And it's, it's important to me to be the man I want to be in this situation. So that's what that's what that's what all of us are desperate for. Right. Exactly. Need people to look in the mirror and respect themselves. And it would, it would less than the reactivity quite a bit. But dude, I, I, I'm really grateful that you, um, spoke into this. Hey, before I, I, I leave Kelly, will you speak in on this? I would love to get your opinion on it. You've been a woman in predominantly male workplaces forever. Right. Yeah. Cause I started the music industry and radio and then here, um, actually, I was so pleased with what he said, just the whole first comment about where we're going to assume that's not how she got her job and then move on. Because that right there to me said, that's not okay. Yeah. In a polite yet, like, I heard what you said, and we're moving on. I thought that was brilliant. Gotcha. I thought that was great and I wish more people would say something like that because I mean, yeah, we all talked about like we all have those conversations in the shower later on where you're like, and then I was going to say, yeah, yeah, then I karate kicked him over the desk. Exactly. But in the moment, you're just like, wait, what? Yeah. And so most people don't say anything. I thought what he said was fantastic and I what do you think about the, about staying or going? I think he's fine to stay. I have no problem with that at all. If we, if we require that we work somewhere that we believe in every single thing that someone says or does, we're all going to be unemployed. We're all going to be unemployed homeless. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sometimes you have to be the change. You have to be the person that says something or that does something different and calls out those things like he very subtly and correctly did. So no, I don't think you have to leave every place you work. Now if something illegal is going on, and people are, you know, pushing it under the rug and hiding it, that's a different story, but no, I think he's fine to stay and just do better. You better than that guy did, but I think what he did was great. Awesome. Thanks for calling, brother. You got Kelly stamp of approval, which I still haven't got yet. So well done, brother. When we come back, a couple calls in who wants to get out of survival mode after dealing with kids and learn to delight in their kids and their life again, we'll be right back. Here's something I've learned over the years, sitting with young men who are struggling with trauma, addiction, mental health challenges or other destructive behaviors. One 50 minute session a week might not be enough to turn things around and to help facilitate major change. This is where capstone wellness can help to make real progress and practice actually living differently. Sometimes young men need a totally new environment. Children Treatment Center is a long-term residential program for struggling young men ages 14 to 28. It's a structured environment with trained license clinicians and healing at capstone isn't something that just happens in a room. It's woven into every part of every day and it's not what you would call a traditional sit-around and talk program. It's action oriented. They let young men practice the weight of responsibility and care. One way they do this and I love this, every young man is paired with the Labrador Retriever Cooper. Being responsible for something that needs you and loves you unconditionally, every day is healing as a daily practice and when the young man graduates, the dog goes home with him and his family. Listen, I trust capstone. If my own son needed this level of care, capstone would be my first call. Learn more at capstonewellness.com/deloney. That's capstonewellness.com/deloney. We are back we're going to go out to Calgary, Alberta and talk to a couple. I'm going to bring Jenny from the block up first. Hey, Jenny. Hello, Dr. John. Thank you for calling in. Let me bring in Patrick here. Hey, Patrick. Hey, Dr. John. All right. Are you all in the same house? We are. Are y'all sitting by each other? No, we were talking about it. Okay. We just want to make sure Patrick, you're not like an elbow range or something. Okay. All right. Oh, sure. So Jenny, I picked you up first, so you go ahead. What's going on? Sure. Our question is, how do we get out of survival mode to delight in our kids again? Oh my gosh. Great question. So paint me a picture. What's going on? Okay. We've got a three-year-old girl and a five-year-old boy, and they are awesome. But our daughter, she had some medical issues when she was born and she screamed for eight months and then cried for five more. That's all resolved now. She's delightful. She's easy. She's so fun, but both of our nervous systems were just in high gear that whole year. And then our five-year-older son, he's in the process of getting diagnosed with giftedness, which means he's like super cool and fascinating, but he just never shuts up. And Turkey is quite overstimulating, so our nervous systems just haven't shifted down, and we are not enjoying parenting anymore. It's kind of being present with them and playing with them and delighting in them. We have lots of support. We have lots of opportunities to get away, but that isn't a full reset. And we've noticed that we're yelling more, or like our fuses are shorter, and we just hate that. Yeah. Patrick, what do you think, brother? Yeah, I think my wife, she's summed that up pretty good. I think for me it's, I have no patience in trying to find grace for them, and I can come home from a day of work feeling good, and I feel set off by even the smallest things yesterday. They're eating supper and we're eating pasta and they're little kids. They're playing with pasta in their hands, and I feel like I could snap, but any minute, this isn't fair to them. Sure. You know, they're just kids, and yeah, it's trying to find the joy in the little things. Paying back out from the two kids, paying me a picture of your home, your work situation, your aging parent situation, financial stresses, like paying me a fuller picture. Are y'all living a pretty run and gun life? We have such a good life. Like I really, you talk about coming home when your home feels peaceful, and I would say that this specific situation we're calling about is what is tension, but it's not the kids. We laugh a lot with the kids. We have both of our families, everyone is, you know, both of our parents are together. We are so loved and supported, the kids grandparents are parents, they delight in our kids, and I just want to be their grandparents instead of their parents. Yeah, like financially we're good, like we're both happy in our jobs. So where it is, like the response is you are telling me about a, you all aren't out of your mind, totally normal, okay? But they tend to come from one of two places, not always, but generally speaking. One is a lack of margin that reduces our ability to hang in there emotionally, meaning like if I'm running at 99.9% capacity, and I'm trying to read a book and my daughter comes in and is like, Dad, this happened this morning. I came up with a new cheer, and I'm sorry, I was last night, and I'm like, what? And she's like, I got a new cheer and I'm at full capacity. My response is not going to be what I want it to be. But it's on me because I have not given myself the emotional capacity. If everything in your life is perfect, and sometimes that capacity is because financial strain, work strain, political strain, family strain, like if that's not the thing, the second path I see people struggle on is a very idealized version of quote unquote, the way things should be. And if you're the way things should be, and so you, if you ever listen to my show, you hear me talk about pictures. If the picture you have of having family dinner is that everybody is like a TV show and everybody's sitting there neatly and everybody's doing their thing, and there's a violation of that picture. That picture can be, I'm trying to think of non nerdy ways to say it. It can be conscious or unconscious, right? And there's a violation of the picture in your, in your heart and mind. It can cause an emotional outburst or that feeling like you're talking about Patrick, like you feel it rising and you're like, just stay down, man, right? And you've done yourself clinching your jaw or right, and then everybody, it just dominos. Do either of those paths ring true? I would say for me, it's, it's the first which feels kind of contradictive because our, our life is good. Like if I wrote down all the good things, I would, you know, it would be easy for me to do. But I think it's just the generic every day, you know, you got to make supper and get everybody dressed and then just the day-to-day things, which maybe it's just my capacity that's impaired and not actually, like I think we run a very normal household. So that's, I think, why I'm calling is why is that normal so overwhelmed? Patrick, what do you think, man? Either of those paths work for you? Absolutely. I would say, you know, I'm resonate with my wife on that. So I'm going to ask you a weird question. It sounds like it's not from this call, but it is. And I'm actually glad you'll aren't in the same room, just because I don't want the answer influenced, okay? Honest to goodness. How's your marriage? I would say what does that mean? I have pulled Patrick quite often how. I'm so thankful that in that first year of our daughter's life where she just screamed, I can see how that would break up 95% of marriages, because we were both just so depleted. And we clung to each other, like I, you know, he'd come home from work and I'd pass him the baby and I'd go sit outside because she's your problem now. And I think we regroup after we put the kids to bed and I do exhale in his presence. Yeah, I think we have a great marriage and you know, I think it's hard to have quality time together, you know, go, go, go and then once the kids are finally in bed, if they go to bed, of course, they show it is it's hard to find, I mean, good quality time and group, you know, de-stressing and so. And so, and here's where I'm, I'm poking at you, but it's, it's not to be provocative, okay? So get to, I'm seeing if there's layers here and there may not be, okay? Sometimes our spouses can become anxiolytics. They can become anti-anxiety medicine, not delight. They can become a place where you're up, like we can be seamless. I'm thinking of the picture of my head is that show the bear, the cooking show where they're just, I mean, you got a chef, you got all these sous chefs, you got all these people and it looks like a symphony, they're all just moving in sync with each other and the goal is to get the food out on the table, but man, they're not connecting at all, they're not delighting in each other. They having really tight logistical situation going on and it's almost down perfect. But what I'm looking for when you say good marriage, I'm, the question that's popping in my head is, are y'all friends? Do y'all still wink at each other? Do you still make funny faces behind your kids' backs at each other? Do you still smack each other on the rear? Do you still go to sneak and get ice cream and after the kids are in bed, you're like, we're doing this tonight. Like, are you friends? But I would say, absolutely, awesome, absolutely, yeah, yeah, and I think it's, it's kind of, I don't think it's probably not the word, but, but he says, quality time and I don't think it's for lack of time, like our kids generally do go to bed. We have the opportunity for two or three hours every evening to ourselves, but we're both so depleted, you know, we're, we've previously used that time to, you know, play a board game or whatever. Now it's like, we need to recover from the day we're totally, yes, on our phone or whatever, where it's, yeah, we have time together, but is it quality time? Well, and, and that's a question I would pose to any couple, but y'all especially is, are there some places where y'all are doing life six inches apart, but six thousand miles away from each other? Y'all claps into bed, but you're reading your book, he's reading his, you're on your phone, he's on his, you're watching your show, he's on his iPad, and we're right next to each other, we even holding hands, but we're on different planets. Yeah, you know, phones and social media, like, probably, probably wasted too much time on things like that, I would say. And here's, I don't want to, I don't want to focus too much on that because I got one big other rock. I want to look under, but here's what I want to challenge you on, scrolling is not benign. It's actually your brain is on hyper overdrive. And so it's, it feels like I just spent all day like playing defense against like an invading army, right? And now I'm collapsing into my bed. I'm right next to my writer, die wife, husband who I love, who loves me. We delight in each other. We still wink and laugh at each other. And then boom, I pull up all the trauma in the world, all the opinions in the world, all of the can you believe? And this happens and then that's and then this is in the sports scores and the whatever. For your nervous system, it's just not only reignited, but it's, it's escalated the ignition. And so what I would tell you is I'm hearing recovery is not too strong of a word. I'm hearing people reclaim peace by turning screens off. And that usually comes with a great, almost like getting off an SSRI. It comes with a season of great tension because people are like, okay, what do I do now? What do I do now? We have to relearn ways to find what I would call real peace inside of our chest, inside of our home, inside of our bedroom, inside of our whatever. That's not this scroll, scroll escalation YouTube clip to the next clip, to the next clip to the next show, to the next show, to the next show. Right. Yeah. So that's something for you all to do on your own, but just to consider it. Try this. Try a five days in a row with no phones after the kids go to bed, no screens. I'll send you all of the questions for humans I have for couples. I'll send you all the dating ones and the couples one and the intimacy deck. And y'all just for five days talk to each other, and you might just be like, I don't like you as much as I thought I did, or, and I'm totally kidding, I'm totally kidding. Or you might find, oh my gosh, I'm sleeping a little deeper. I've got, I'm giving myself just this much more margin. And by the way, you have a three and a five year old. You're in the middle, the dead, and you'll get this more than I would. I grew up in Texas. You're in Alberta. You are in the dead of winter right now. Get in there. Get in there. No, no, no, no, no. I'm talking about in your season of life. Oh, okay. Yeah. Y'all are wearing thick winter coats. The house smells like smoke because you got fire going 24 or 7365. But let's, I promise you spring is coming. A three year old is going to be magic. She's just going to go to the bathroom by herself and then get in the bath by herself. And you're going to feel like you got eight years left of your life. And I promise you that five year olds aim is going to get better and it's not going to be pee in every corner of your bathroom. And I promise you that the spaghetti will find itself more, more on the plate. And like the good old days are usually in their rearview mirror, right? Right. Um, I just don't, I know but don't be so conscious of it that you don't give yourself permission to be really frustrated when a five year old dumps is played as spaghetti. You're supposed to be frustrated, right? Yeah. I talked to a woman yesterday on my show who's just dropped her last kid off of college. And she was like, I miss the stains. I miss the volume. I miss yelling upstairs. You all be quiet. I'd often say like when, when we look back and reminisce on these times, can we just be realistic about how much is fact also? Yes. Yes. So don't, don't pre, don't pre for, don't pre grieve something and which takes away your permission to be frustrated in the moment. Be frustrated. You're allowed to be. It's all good. Your kids don't need to wear that. They can't wear it. But y'all be frustrated. Right. Right. You. Okay. Okay. And I'm going to pull this rock up and there may be nothing here under this one. Okay. Okay. I'm only picking up on this because you, the way you talked about it a few times. Do you harbor any sort of guilt over the hell your daughter went through in your one? Oh, I was going to say no, but now I'm starting to cry so maybe, um, logically, no, I. Nothing on this show is logic, Jenny. We fought for answers for a long time and, yeah, she was in a lot of pain and, and we weren't really getting hurt. And so I do, yeah, should I have pushed more? And now that she's, she's bad and she's so easy going, I just look back and go, man, she must have been hurting so much. Yeah. So here's what I want you to do. I want you. How old are you right now, Jenny? Oh, good question. 35. Okay. 35. I want you to write a letter to 32 year old you. And I want you to, in that letter, I want you to say, you're about to enter into a really dark season. That's the first section. I want you to explain. Here's what's about to happen to you. And I want you to put yourself back there, okay? And in the second part of this letter, I want you to talk about, um, life at 35. Live with this amazing, hilarious, easy-going, three year old old girl. And then at the end of the letter, I want you to tell, I want you to celebrate 32-year-old you. I look back and I see how hard you fought for your little girl. And I want to tell you three years later that that your fighting wasn't in vain. It all worked out. And here's the kind of mom I'm going to continue to be moving forward. But I want you to let her go because I think she's still running the show a lot. I think so. I find when I look back at pictures of that season of life, I feel very hollow. Yeah. And it's not, it wouldn't, it wouldn't be abnormal for when you look at those pictures that your body goes, almost like a vacuum and pulls you right back to that time three years ago. You could probably feel it in your chest. Yep. For sure. I want you to let her go. She was a great mom. Absolutely. And then I want you to read that letter to Patrick. And Patrick, if you have that same thing, you do the same exact thing. Y'all want y'all to share this with each other. I want y'all to bring peace to three year ago, three year ago, y'all so that y'all can be free to move forward. So there's three big pictures here. Number one, y'all went through a pretty traumatic experience with an infant who was in a ton of pain that couldn't advocate for herself and a medical system that wouldn't listen to parents saying something's not right here. It's traumatic. It changes you. And I want you to forgiveness, I don't know, that's the right word because I don't think you have anything to forgive them for. Y'all fought hard for your marriage for each other, for your kid. And that's amazing. But I want you to let them go. Their vigilance, their franticness, their things have to be this certain way right now that season has passed for now. Let's let them rest. The second thing is I want y'all to be really hyper intentional about finding delight, enjoy, and fun, not numbing. And all we're looking for is two or three or four degrees more of margin. Just tiny little pockets of margin where our bodies can actually rest so that we can get up and manage the chaos of a three year old and a five year old who are fully being three and five. And the third thing I want to just, I'm smiling here, spring is coming, summer is coming, y'all are right in the middle of it, but you're also right on the cusp of not having diapers everywhere, not having so, you have a different chaos, but it's gonna be, it'll be a different chaos, not the same chaos. And there is like a piece is on the way. So hang in there, hang in there. You two are delightful, it's an honor to talk to you. It's a love talking to great parents who are trying to do it well. You're well with, it's right to be frustrated, it's right to get all that's right and good. Y'all are doing great. I'll be right back. All right, you've heard me talking about it for a month and it's official. My brand new book Building the Marriage You Want is available for pre-order. Picture me sitting at the table with you and your spouse helping you both take the next right step in your marriage. That's what this book is. Me sitting at the table with you both walking you through what to do in your marriage. I get into all of it, why marriage is so hard in the 21st century, why I think marriage still matters and I'll give you a playbook for the stuff that trips most couples up communication, conflict, sex, money being married with kids, all of it. Nothing is off the table. If you like this show, you're going to love this book pre-order building the marriage you want today for $24.99 and get over $100 and pre-order bonus items. Go to johndalone.com. All right, we're back Kelly and I the problem. All right. Before I read this two things, first thing we want your voicemails, you're in my the problem voicemails. Call us at 844-693-3291, leave us your voicemail. We will play it on the air so just know that. Tell me your name and location, I don't care if it's correct, I don't care who you say you are. A name and location or I'll make one up for you. Put my my the problem, say that right in the beginning so we know that and then read it has to be something less than 60 seconds has to be something that john can answer quickly without a lot more context or like we said before, we will make the context up and it will be fantastic. Yes. Second, I'm about to read in my the problem that talks about certain people and our characters that our children celebrate at certain times of the year. So if your children are listening and you don't want them to know about these things, giving you time to stop this right now. All right. Now I'm going to read this from john in Whitman, Arizona. Am I the problem for not wanting to have Santa as part of our family tradition? Yes. Yes. Let me finish. All right. Recently, Deloney told a man struggling with telling lies to go hard and telling the truth. A few years ago, I reached the same point and the same solution. Deloney has also publicly said that embracing Santa is not lying to your kids. It is important to my wife to have Santa and the magic of Christmas for our now one year old, like she had growing up, also the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy. I think we can have magic without that. I've tried to tell her about how I was before I met her and my dedication now to always telling the truth. We did Santa last year when our child was four months old and it feels very uneasy for me and wrong to lie, even if everyone does it, or if it will have minor, if any consequences, or if I say this is the only lie that I will ever tell. I want my kids to know that their father was always honest with them. How do I square wanting to remain honest and the fact that these characters are very important to my wife? All right. So great question. And I want to honor the fact. I don't think you're being a jerk. I think you're actually wrestling with this and I have high respect for that. Okay. So here's how I would couch it. Let's say you were going to do a surprise birthday for your third grader and your third grader's like, Dad, are we having a party and you're like, not this year. Just me and you and mom are going to get a cake and maybe a little brother. And then your kid came home and surprise all their friends were there and it was a blast and there was presence and cake, whatever. Did you deceive your kid? Yeah. You did. Did you not tell them the full truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you God? Yeah. Technically you did. Did you give them magic, yes. And so there's things like Santa Claus. There's things like the Easter Bunny. There's things like surprise birthday parties that are part of a grander cultural picture, which is everybody gets swept up in this thing and it's fun to pretend we're out of the drudgery of the day in and day out life and and and and and I don't view those things as lying as being what I would say dishonest. And I would also go one step further when it comes to kids, radical honesty can bury a child. Here's what I mean. I talk to folks all the time who has a spouse who cheated on them and they're like, should I tell my five year old, no, your daddy's a liar and a cheat and he know that kind of radical honesty will bury a five year old because half of that five year old is also half of the other parent. And so the other parents evil and bad will maybe half of me is evil and bad. And so there is times that we're going to not be radically honest, we're always going to tell the truth in those kinds of situations. Daddy made a bad choice, daddy's not, daddy's not well, mommy didn't, whatever, but we're not going to bury kids with quote unquote radical honesty. So for me, and again, I'm going to let you make this decision in your home because I believe you're genuinely wrestling with it. I don't view participating in holidays as or birthday celebration, things like I don't view that as lying, as being dishonest, even though technically, I guess you're right. You got me. It is dishonest. I do believe that you tell the kids the truth in ways they can handle it. And by the way, you're also asking your by by you feeling like I have to be honest with you're two year old with your four year old about Santa, you are also choosing to isolate them from everyone else in their class, everyone else that they're around. So your need to I will be like this is going to cost them socially, cost them, magic, cost to them interactions. And I think it's important to balance that too. What do you think, Kelly? I 100% agree with you and that I mean, yeah, I'm going to clip that. I know. I don't think you've ever said that. You should. I don't, I don't recall and I'm sure there's somebody out there that was mad at their parents when they found out, but I don't recall being mad at my parents. I just recall there was a day when you just grew out of that belief, you know, it wasn't like, I hate y'all you lied to me. I'm sure that that's happened somewhere. But No, I don't find any harm. I've raised two kids, both believed in Santa, both believed in the tooth fairy that Easter Bunny. I have a special needs daughter. This still does. She's 23 and we still do it because she believes. And I've now brought my son, as soon as he quit believing, we brought him into it. And so no, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Let them have imagination. Do you tell them that Mickey Mouse isn't real or, you know, you don't let them watch things where animals talk on, you know, Disney movies because it's not true. It's not real. Yeah. No, I think the world is so devoid of magic that, man, if I can, if I can get my kids to participate in a magic, I'm all for it, all for it. Even, they're mine. I was going to say something. It was just know this. It was going to be hilarious, but I'm trying to be less cancelable. So, love you guys, bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]