Caller: “I Envy My Daughter’s Relationship With My Husband”

[MUSIC] >> I'm, I myself being jealous of the relationship that my husband has with our oldest daughter. You know, if my husband is a great guy and I didn't have the kind of relationship that I see them have. >> Would it be the annoying stems from grief? >> I should have had that with my dad and I didn't. [MUSIC] >> What up, what's going on? This is John with the Dr. John DeLone Show Coventy live from Nashville, Tennessee, but not really live. I'm live right now, but you are not hearing this live. Hey, we're taking calls, real calls from real people going through real challenges. Relationships, mental, emotional health, kids, everything in between. We're pulling up a seat next to each other, figuring out what's the next right move. If you want to be on the show, I'd love to have you click the link in the show notes. Don't forget the greatest marriage app on the planet that together app will change your marriage. One action step at a time. Go to the Apple Store and download it right away. You can bring your spouse in and it doesn't cost you anything extra, right? I know everybody's struggling financially and the things are tight. Prices things so that everybody can do it for from now until perpetuity. You can bring your spouse along for no extra charge. Or you can do it in one player mode if you just want to be the change inside your own marriage. Go download the together app right away. All right, it's got to Richmond, Virginia, and check in with Emma. What's up, Emma? Hi, hi, Dr. John. How are you? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm good, nervous. I'm ready. Hey, I'm glad you're here. All right, so what you got? What's going on? I'm calling because I'm finding myself being jealous of the relationship that my husband has with our oldest daughter. Oh, tell me about this. Good one. Well, it's so annoying and I hate myself for it because it's really good. It's a good thing that they get along so well and that they enjoy similar things and similar music and movies and stuff like that. But sometimes when they're being silly and just, you know, like on the couch, just being goofy, nothing crazy or anything, just being annoying to each other. I'm like, but I want, I wish she was like that with me. I don't know why it has to be like her or me, but I feel like that sometimes. Gotcha. Okay, so first off, we're never going to say I hate myself for X, Y, Z again, right? I know you're playing, but we're going to take that out of our lexicon. Okay. Yeah. So, yes, I think you've set up a false dynamic of her or me instead of her and me. What I wonder is, so you see your husband being this way with her. Yeah. Silly, goofy, like free wrestling, fun, poking, all the stuff. How old your daughter? Yeah, she's 14. 14. Okay. And you also see your daughter eating this up. Tell me about that. Oh, yeah. Well, they're, I don't think I get emotional so early. They're just, you know, my husband's a great guy and I didn't have the kind of relationship that I see them have. Yeah, there we go. So, I just, I love it so much for them, which is why I'm annoyed at myself because of it. So when you were great. Well, and so instead of being annoyed by it, and again, I'm saying things that are ridiculous, right? So, like, I feel depressed. We'll just be happier, right? I get, like, just not being annoyed. It's not what I mean, but underneath the annoyance, if you, if you were to be curious about the annoyance, like, why does my body respond to an obviously beautiful thing? Yeah. Yeah. Like, and, and not be pissed off at it or not, hate yourself for it, but I'll be curious about it. Like, what is it about this interaction that sets my body off? Would, if you were curious from it about it, would it be the annoyance stems from grief? I should have had that with my dad and I didn't. Or is it from, I don't have a better word to use here off the, off the cuff, but is it shame in that I don't allow that kind of relationship with my husband? I'm guarded. I'm not silly. I don't poke at him. And when he does poke me back, I take offense to it, right? It, it, what about, like, when you get beneath the annoyance, what's your body trying to, what's your body bringing out? Or maybe it's both those things? Um, no, I, I think it's that, like, I feel like I missed him, like, because when he, he's been working so much lately, because we've had a lot of unexpected medical expenses this year. So, like, when he's home, I, I like crave his attention. Yeah. And I know that he do too. Like, I know they need it too. And I know that he's doing what he has to do. But I feel like, like, I just, I just miss him, I guess. Yeah. What is, what is, what is, so you miss him? And that's a real feeling. And also the more you talk about this guy, the more amazing he sounds. Yeah. Yeah. He's, like, yeah, relationally. What is it? What, what, what is it about you that you don't feel like you come first? Um, what I mean by that is your 14 year old is reckless in her pursuit of him. Yeah. Your 14 year old has no built in, um, I don't know. He's probably tired. He, she's coming full force. I want all of you. Yeah. What is it about the dynamic in your marriage? What is it about the dynamic that you've built around yourself? Maybe it's with him that when he walks in that door, you are not full force. I just don't want to act. So he works in law enforcement. And, um, so he's, like, when he's at work, he is 100% all the time for other people. Yeah. So I don't want to add, like, I don't want, I want him to come home and you're always saying, like, how do you want home to feel for him? Like, that's what I think I want him to feel like this is a place where he can like, um, unplug and like, to like just be. So I don't worry. Okay. But do you really, do you hear what you just said? Maybe. This is big, okay? I want you to hold this because it's going to be heavy to hold. You want your home to be a place of peace. You want him, this guy who spends his whole life serving other people constantly in a dangerous situation. And I grew up in the home of a policeman. I grew up, my mom begged me to not go into law enforcement because she said every time your dad leaves, I hold my breath. Yeah. And especially now everybody hates the police. Exactly. And so now you're going into a place to serve and to care and to keep order and to love people well and they hate you for it. Or at least, at least the media says they hate you for. Right. Right. Yeah. In reality, people are so grateful, but like, there are people that hate you for, right? Yeah. Yeah. But the story you've told yourself, and it may be a real story, it may be a dynamic that's emerging your marriage or it may just be you. You have told yourself the story that the most peaceful thing for my husband is for me to disappear when he walks in the door because I'm a burden. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a lie. It's not true. Because there's a guy that ran with police officers all day who spent all day of my life. I wasn't getting shot at. I didn't have to wear a bulletproof vest, but who spent all day, every day in the mess of other people. Yeah. The thing that I crave the most was not my wife's absence. Not her becoming a ghost in her own house, but her becoming the warmest safest place I could land. Yeah. Get what I'm saying? So what is it about you being warmth? What about about you? What is it that when you look in the mirror, you feel like I'm not something to be plugged into? I'm not warm. I'm not safe. I'm a burden to this guy. Because your 14-year-old doesn't have any of that baggage. She runs full force. And if you see that interaction, it gives him life. Yeah. Yeah. So what is it about you that you don't believe you give him life? I'm growing up. My family dynamics were weird and I was a lot. My parents were very, my mom was an e-arner, and so I love her. She's my mom, but she's very cold and calculated and logical. Don't defend her on the show. Just tell the truth. Okay. Yeah. She's just a very cold person, and I was always a lot for her. She would be like, go be you somewhere else. Stop right there. Stop right there. That right there is trauma. Yeah. Hold on. Just sit in there. Don't try to solve it. Just sit in it. You can't be you around me. There is a limit to our relationship and you just crossed it, you the child. That disconnects you from yourself. That's the definition of trauma. Enforces you into a different way of loving so that the adult in the room will accept you. I hate that happen to you. I hate you. Because you're watching a 14-year-old get what should happen, which is her full too much self being met fully with the masculine energy of a good man, right? And that story took root years ago that I'm too much and that I'm a lot. And if I want to be loved, if I want to really love somebody else, well, that means diminishing myself. Just staying out of the way. Right. Then you've got a guy coming home who's been everything to everybody and all. He probably really wants his full you. You see how you get in this figure eight dance, you kind of withhold and he kind of chases, which makes you withhold more or want to disappear even more with holdings, a bad word. You want to get more like a ghost. And then he exhales and he's a man of duty and a man of honor. So he starts going other places, you know, for whatever it's worth. You're worth turning the music up way too loud and you're worth dancing when that man walks in the door. And you're worth kissing them all over and you're worth boxing out that 14-year-old. And you're like, huh, I get him first. And if you're thinking about all year, at four o'clock, then when he walks in the door at five, everybody's boxed out and we're locking the door for a minute, or if you just need a hug from him, after he's spent a day serving and you want to rest in him, there's nothing better than being exhausted, but actually getting to serve the one person I care the most about. I just don't know how to change what I feel like change logically. It makes sense, but I don't know how to change how I feel like I have a callous word for it. Okay. It's practice. It is doing the thing that in your guts you want to do and punching through that mask you've been wearing for 20 or 30 years. And then having him be honest and you be honest and practice. You come into him and saying, I'm watching this happen and I was her and I'm falling in love more with you every day, watching how you receive all of our too much 14 year old girl and jealous because I was that girl and my mom shut me down and I'm still that girl. And I want her to come back and it's just going to take some practice and then take some electricity. It's going to take me feeling so exposed and awkward when I'm dancing around the kitchen that I'm going to want to run and hide in the bedroom for a minute to recalibrate. It's okay, but I want, I want to be your safe place. I don't want to be your invisible place. Yeah. I really do. I know. I know. And I, I, I, I don't want to speak for him, but I almost guarantee you he wants that more than anything on the planet. He didn't even probably even have the words for it. I think this is a pretty awesome day for you. It's going to take some writing, some journaling, letting that little girl come to the forefront, asking yourself, what do you want your house to feel like? I want to. And what role you can play in how your house feels. You sit down with your husband and be an honest. I'm watching the way it should have been, and now I'm planning for how it's going to be. And giving him permission to say, hey, today was a really rough one. Can we just hug instead of dance and you being able to, because you're an adult, you're not 14, you can like, yeah, and not go into a shame spiral and I knew it. I'm too much, but yeah, I can, I can, I can, I can switch up here. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Today's Independence Day for Emma. And it's just going to take some practice. Yeah. And it might look like putting dancing on the calendar. It might look like putting sexual rendezvous on the calendar. It might look like putting couch time on the count. We're going to practice this thing until until 14 year old me is free again. I can do that. It might be you sunny up for dance classes or yoga classes or an art class or a music like whatever used to set you on fire. We're going, we're, we're, we're open in the old boxes that we've stored in the back of the garage. Yeah. Right. I can do that. How about this? Not I can do that as yet another thing that you're doing wrong, but I get to do that. Yeah. You only get one lap around this track called life. I'd hate for you to cross a finish line and say I kept most of the, the fun parts of me in a box in the back of the garage. Yeah, I would too, and I don't want the example for my kids either. That's there you go. The greatest gift you can give that 14 year old girl is watching her mom be head over heels for a good man. Yeah. And to not feel like I have to be reserved in my own house because it's my freaking house too. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You think you're a lot you wait till your mom gets going. Right. And I know like there's chores and dinner and food and you got a job like I know all that's real reality. So I'm not, you know, you're not going to be a 14 year old, but we're not going to live a hemmed in life with our right or die. We're not going to live a hemmed in life when it comes to I love you so much I got to put a lid on it. No way. I want my house to feel a place of peace and laughter and warmth, but I'm an oven and I get too hot. It's going to unplug myself. No way, dude. We're going to go right through the middle of that tension. We're going to figure that one out. I'm so proud of you, dude. Today's day one on a brand new day. Do me a huge favor. I want you to have a conversation with your husband, like a deep one, a good one. And y'all co-imagined this together. And then in 30 days, I want you to call me back and let me know what's the state of things. Today's day one. Come on. 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All right, Denver, Colorado, let's talk to Andrew. Hey, Andrew, what's up, man? How are you doing today, I'm good brother, how are you? Hang it in there. Hang it in there. Hang it in the long day, it's the long day factory. It's the morning, man, we haven't started the long day factory yet. What's going on? So I'm wondering if there's any way to improve my relationship with my new father-in-law after he's openly disliked me and has disrespected me for years. But not even you telling me what's going on, the answer is probably no. I mean, I can give you examples on what he has said to me that kind of just sticks in my brain. But before you've ruminated on this, you've thought about it, you've had imaginary conversations with him over and over, right? Yeah, I pre, like whenever I have to interact with him, I think about how like pre-planning conversations and obviously they never go the way that I remember because they just sit there silently. Yeah, never. So here's what I think would be more instructive for me in terms of gathering information. What's your wife say about it all? My wife doesn't have anything to say about it. She's just like, that's the way he's been. And that whole stuff, that's the problem. Yeah. That's why you're calling. Because if your father-in-law sucked, if he was a prick, a jerk, he didn't like you, but your wife was on your team fully, he would just be a guy that doesn't like you. But the real issue here is your wife dismisses what happens to you. Okay, that we did bring us up during our like couples count or like pre-marriage counseling and that counts or never brought that up to him. Does that track with you? It makes sense, not that you say it out loud because that point has never crossed my mind because she keeps bringing you into situations. We're going to go to this dinner. We're going to go to this holiday thing. We're going to go to this thing where she knows you're going to get belittled and dismissed and disrespected and her excuses, well, that's just what he is instead of saying, I'm not letting anybody talk to my husband like that, much less like my dad, and so no, we're not going. See what I'm saying? Is she the difference there? Yeah, that actually opens up. That's like opening up the curtains. Yeah, I see the death. There's a definite difference. I thought my problem was with him, not with- No, because he's a, he's just a guy. And yes, all of us want to have a great relationship with our in-laws because we have, we want to like get new aging adults in our life, which is always awesome. If they're great, we want our kids to have great grandparents. We have these dreams of the holiday trips and the cruises and the hunting and the fishing together, like whatever the thing is, right? And so there is a grief to a father-in-law who's disrespectful and whatever. But the challenge you have before you is actually the problem is with your partner, with your wife. And if you're honest, here's the thing I want to prepare you for. When you head down this trail, you're going to start to see it in other places, too. I'll be willing to bet, not every time, but you're going to find other places where she kind of just does it because that's just what things are. Maybe with your finances, maybe when it comes to sex and intimacy, maybe when it comes to purchasing decisions. Am I right or am I on my off-base? Call me out if I'm off-base. No, I feel like you're on the right track. Like, there's something that's always been that way and it's just kept doing it that way. There's, okay, I think you're on the right track. So let me ask you the hardest question of all. When you look in the mirror, are you a man that you respect? I mean, I think so, I believe so. I just try to, I believe so. I have no reason to think, I just, I don't know, I believe so. I have no reason to not respect myself, I don't think. Well, it's often not a logical or a cognitive response, it's a gut response. I look at my physical self and I pick it apart, but as a person, I feel like I very much respect myself. Okay. You speak up for yourself. You tell the truth? Absolutely. Yes, I do. Do you keep yourself on that? Do you keep your promises to yourself? Yes. Okay. Are you, do you keep your promises to your wife about, here's who we're going to be? You hold up your end of the bargain. So far, yes, I mean, we've been married for roughly two months or so, so far, so like I'm doing so far. I'm feeling like I'm doing okay. Okay. Pretty good. All right. I have to ask her about that, but, you know, yeah. It may be worth the conversation. I heard Alex from Mozzie say this recently to a mutual buddy, Chris Williamson, and it's stuck with me. And again, you could pull it apart with social psychology and it sounds pop, internet, movie, whatever, but it resonated with me for a married man or a man in a committed relationship, romantic relationship. Their capacity is limited by their partner's belief in them. I married a woman who thinks I could take on the world. She doesn't always like how I take on the world, and she doesn't like how I burn myself out at both ends trying to take on the world, but my wife believes like that's why my wife has never, she's never wanted to like play the game like who's on your hall pass list whatever. Yeah. Because she's like you'll, it'll happen to you. That's her innate belief system. My husband can just about do anything. And what that's done for me over the years has allowed me to believe I can do anything. And I also have people close to me whose wives roll their eyes. My husband's, he never, he always, he can't, I have to. And sometimes what they say is true, but it becomes a, it becomes a self reinforcing fable, right? And so my question for you is when you sit down across the table from your brand new wife, do you get the sense in your chest? This woman believes in me or this woman is managing me. I never thought about that actually every time I've never even thought about it, if this woman, if she believes in me, I ask her bad, I ask her, okay, I will ask her. And by the way, my wife doesn't think I could go play in the NBA, because I'm terrible. But she believes if I need one to figure out how to work in the NBA and move my way up to the upper echelon, like that guy'd figure that out, she believes that, right? So like there's, it's not irrational, right? I'm not saying something great, like, she doesn't believe I'm going to go colonize Mars, but I've got a wife that believes if my husband puts his head down on something, he's going, he's going to, it's going to happen, so I got to start planning for it. So I want you to, all of this is in service to the question, is your wife on your team? Or is she on her dad's team? Is her allegiance to the world y'all are building together? Or is her allegiance to the life she used to have that now she's just trying to figure out where you fit in that puzzle? And the other thing is she also has problems with her own father-in-law or her not her own father-in-law. I'm sorry, her father. Sometimes she'll complain about her dad and that makes me think, okay, we're on the same page, but her actions show by her not standing up for me that she is on his team, her actions show that is what I'm peering from you. Is that correct? I'm asking you if that's the dynamic in your house. I guess her actions show it, right? Because let's, I mean, it can be more nuanced than that, all right? So I don't want everything to be a nail so I'm running around as a hammer trying to smash everything. Like, it could be that she identifies with her mom who's an exhausted, like, weathered woman because this man is oppressive. And she knows if I can just, if I can do look over here, he'll leave mom alone and he'll keep us in. there could be a million different dynamics. It could be, like you said, that's what she knows. She doesn't know a different kind of man that loves her for who she is and gives her equal voice at the table, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. I never even thought about it. I always thought my problem was with him. Wow. That I've opened my eyes to a whole lot of things. But recognize this is a way harder conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So here's, I'm going to give you a path into the conversation. You ready? Please. Yes. I talked to this goofball podcaster today. Can we have a big conversation about some things he, he dropped on me? Sure. Can we put both of our phones away and just like have some directed conversation? Sure. After thinking about this all day, this, you know, I've got a problem with how your dad talks to me, how he treats me. The story I'm making up is you don't come to my defense. The story I'm making up is maybe you're on his team more than you're on my team. The story I'm making up is the wife I really want. I want a wife that is right or die with me, not with her dad first and then me. And that makes me feel apprehensive. That makes me feel scared. That makes me feel small. That makes me feel like we're always going to have three people at our kitchen table whenever we're having dinner. Me and you and your dad, we just need to make him a plate too because he's a part of our house buying decisions and job decisions and moving decisions and kid decisions. What I would love is you and me to decide what's best for both of us. And if anyone's going to disrespect us, we're going to be fighting for who's in front who's going to take the first, the first, the first shrapnel. You know what I'm saying? But it starts with here's the stories I'm making up. If you sit down and start lobbying accusations against her, yeah, that's a way to get further apart. Okay, that is a good way to get into that conversation. I didn't even think about wow, okay. And we are, we're still continuing our couples counseling. Would you recommend doing this like tonight or with our couples counselor? So we have a mediator in there. So in case emotions get flared, well, A, emotions 100% will get flared. Yeah. B, I like the idea of y'all practicing this conversation together. And then if it opens a can of worms, then then you take that conversation to the therapist. And you sit down and say, here's a conversation I had, here's some revelations, here's some things I was wondering about. And less the dynamic of, I mean, less the actual conversation itself. But the dynamic opened up this whole other arena. Okay, okay. Right. So I sat down with my wife, my new wife and said, Hey, here's a big thing that's sitting in the middle of my chest. And here's a story I'm making up. And now she hasn't talked to me in three days. Or the first thing she did was she grabbed her phone and called her mom, which is the exact issue we were bringing up. Or she came back and said, Oh, yeah, well, you never and lobbed a bunch of grenades back over the wall at me. Or she put her hands in her face and sobbed and said, You're exactly right. I don't, I don't know how to break the break it. I don't want to disappoint my dad. I've always disappointed him. He's always said I was not enough. Hey, the way he talks to you, right? So that those responses become great conversations for. Here's how we create a model for having hard conversations in our particular marriage. Okay, that I'm nervous to have that conversation. I'm sitting here, I'm sitting here sweaty palms like thinking about having it already. Okay, so start the conversation when I'm nervous to have this conversation. Okay, because I'm a guy, I respect and because I respect myself, I tell the truth. And the truth right now is I'm real nervous. It's the like the first time I was going to talk in front of 5,000 people. My son was with me. His eyes were as big as saucers and he kept looking up to me. And I could tell he was looking up to me as I was some kind of I was different than him. And I wasn't. And I said, Hey, let me see your hand. His little bitty hand. And I took it. And I I unbuttoned my dress shirt and I put it in on my chest and he could feel my heart beating out of my chest. And we made eye contact. And I said, I'm so nervous right now. I think my heart's going to jump out of my chest. And I watched his shoulders just drop. Right? Yeah. Because I'm going to try to be a man. I respect. I'm going to tell the truth. Have I prepared for this speech? Yep. Am I super, super nervous? Yep. Both are true. I'm not scared to say that. So lead with that. Lead with that. I'm nervous to have his conversation. I'm nervous to cause a big fight here. Because I don't want to fight at all. But I'm also nervous to keep my mouth shut two months in. Absolutely. And wow, I never even. Okay. Game on. That's game. I guess I guess I'll have that conversation tonight with my sweaty palms. There you go. Sure. Sure. Hey, my palms are sweating. Yeah. Right. But but but again, then. Yeah, we're just going to be as honest as we can and as open and vulnerable as we can and as curious as we can. And yeah, it's going to be a hard conversation for sure. Two months in 100% hurt. And think about it. Flip it around. The guys approved the first man's approvals she wants more than anybody in the world is her dads. And he's not approving of the one lifelong decision forever, forever decision the first one she's ever made. You. That's a tough place for her to find herself. But she made the decision. And now her dad gets to be an adult and say, I'm going to trust my adult daughter who I raised that she married a good man. And I like to whatever. And he likes whatever. I'm not going to be that guy that belittles him that makes fun of him that badgers him. I'm going to invite him out. I'm going to do whatever. But then he gets to be grown up or he gets to opt out a relationship, which I hope to God he doesn't do. Thanks for your call, brother. And if this conversation goes sideways or if it's great and you and your wife want to call back on the show, we'll get you back on as a follow up. Thanks for call, brother. We come back. A woman asks how to navigate conflicting beliefs about birth control with her husband. We'll be right back. 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Whether the answer is a few lifestyle changes or a supplement tweak here or there or a much more comprehensive treatment plan, everything can be prescribed and managed through joy and bloats. Joy and bloats is for men and women who want to be proactive with their health and get to the root of their health challenges. Go to joy and bloats.com/deloney and get 50% off labs and 20% off all products. That's j-o-i-n-b-l-o-k-e-s.com/deloney. All right, we're back. Let's go out to San Diego, California, one of the most beautiful places in the world and talk to Nancy. Hey, Nancy, what's up? Hi, Dr. Jellon. Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm a little nervous, but how are you? I'm doing great. Thank you for calling, thank you for calling even though you're nervous. Thank you for taking my call. So what's up? I did prepare a statement so that I don't come over my word because we're in court. I have prepared a statement. Right. All right. Read it, but how's your knife? Read it. Hold on. Read it in the least redie way. Oh, gosh. Let's see. In this manual? See, see. No. No, read it in a very conversational way. Okay, absolutely. So my husband and I have been married for 11 years. We have three kids together. We're married in the Catholic Church and I actually converted from an evangelical background. Okay. It did fall away for a while before I met my husband for my faith, but then I came back. And we got married in the Catholic Church. I had to convert to Catholicism. He's been cladled to probably the greatest Catholic. raise and he does not believe in any type of birth control. I have started using it a birth control for health reasons recently and to reduce symptoms of PCOS and other health reasons. But how do I find the peace of myself and our marriage if we're not on the same page about a big issue? You can't look for peace as resolution of this issue. Peace has to come elsewhere on who we're going to be despite this. What I would call a perpetual is the Godman's call it. It's a perpetual problem. This will never go away. I know. And so I think the number that it's 68 or 69% of marital conflict is perpetual. It will never not be there. He's always going to want to stay up late when you want to go to bed early. He's always going to want to have sex in the evenings and you won't have it in the morning. He's always going to think about it seven out of 10 problems in your marriage are going to be kind of always. So trying to solve the problem in terms of who's a win or a loss, who's right or who's wrong is a recipe to burn your marriage to the ground. The real question is going to be how do we communicate our differences, especially in something as deeply seeded or that's anchored to a faith practice as birth control and over control? Yeah, we recently went to couples therapy for about five sessions or less. It didn't help. I feel like he just dug his heels into a grandma, which is interesting because there was a random. We actually found a Catholic couple therapist and sweet lady and she was able to kind of confirm with him like my view, but he didn't seem to want to acknowledge it. I've gone to our priest and talked to him about it. He did give me kind of a not a warning, but if this is going to cause big issues in my marriage, the priest actually told me wait until you feel comfortable opening up to your husband about this, but I was so excited to feel that's another layer of it is the idea of salvation. I was so excited that I felt like, oh, I'm forgiven. I'm allowed to be under control for health reasons. I can tell my husband. I was stupid to tell him that he said, no, absolutely not. This is still thin and it can cause, you know, we can lose our foundation and it makes me sad that he believes that I don't agree with that viewpoint. Well, there's multiple viewpoints here view point number one is if I do this thing, I go to hell. Yeah. If he looks in the mirror and truly deeply believes that. Like that's that's then trying to talk him out of that is trying to talk you out of not pushing your child out of the way if a truck is flying down the street. Right, he's trying to shove you out of the way of a vehicle moving down the road in your direction. If he truly believes, if you take this pill to keep your body from like, like causing you such pain that you are immobile. Right, if he believes that, then that conversation is a futile conversation because everybody's going to try to push their loved one out of the way of a truck flying down the road. Everyone, I'll push strangers out of the way, right. Yeah. The second thing here is is what I would call moving that question over to the side because that that will be what I would call a values that that's not just a perpetual problem that is a ready crossroads here. I was I was prepared for that when I told him, but I honestly didn't expect them to dig his heels deeper after consulting with please, which makes me wonder if it's not about that it's about control. Your body's mine. I don't care how much pain you're in. I don't care how comfortable you are. I don't care. I don't care any of that stuff. It's mine. And that's where sometimes these teachings get really dangerous. They get really abusive and they get really wrong headed. Right. Now, I hopefully I just painted you two barbells, meaning like opposite ends. You got one guy who is trying with every fiber of his being to love you and keep you out of what he believes is eternal damnation. Right. The other side is a possessive abusive man that doesn't care how much you hurt doesn't care what medical doctors say don't care what his faith leaders say your body's mine and you will do with it what I say. Right. One of those can be addressed with compassion and I don't share your same belief and I get the angst you have and I want you to know that at the end of the day. I believe in this particular faith and I believe I'm going to stand in judgment and I believe I can whether that judgment. Given all the other things. And so I appreciate you willing to shove me out of the way this truck, but I don't think this truck can actually hit me so please don't push me right that's one conversation the other is I'm not going to be in relationship with you. Because you're abusing one of the most sacred responsibilities, which is husband to his wife and you turn it into an ownership conversation. And that's pathological here, here's a few like litmus tests, okay. Do you get to say in the family finances? We were doing well. That's not what I asked you're about to give me a kind of a. Are you going to say yes and no, okay, more know than yes, okay. Did you name your kids? Did y'all name your kids or do he name your kids? Oh, no, we did it together. What other places are you living in his world? I would trade with and laws with a lot of conflict and then with parenting styles. So the bigger issue is y'all have I I'm wondering again, he's not on the phone and I'd love to sit on talk to him. The bigger question I would have here is is this a are we talking about a salvation conversation here? Or are we talking about a guy who wants his way the way any way he wants it? I might have an any man whether a doctor a priest don't care who it is. No one's telling my wife what she can do with her body. It's my job. And I got real problems with men like that. I think where I seem like both sides of him like he and it's like I'm a spectrum. Or I do see like that his his deep belief in God and his in a Catholic faith. But then there's that more over protective side where he these things. Well, when he has a really hard time seeing other people's perspective and that comes out in his workplace at home with us. What was really the most upsetting of it all was. I mean, besides having a different conversation and him not saying my point of view, but him bringing up the possibility that he could speak an annulment through the Catholic church. So the worst. If I don't. So often for control. Hold on, I want you to stop using the word control. I want you to I want you to name it what it is. I'm going to seek an annulment. If you don't do what I say with your body. Because birth controls become the the miniature little proxy war. That's not the issue here. He's now he's threatening the integrity of your relationship. He's threatening your safety. He's threatening your time with your kids. He's threatening you financially. Right. He hasn't proceeded in that direction. I think he just said that out of anger. Yeah, do you know threaten don't threaten relational breaks out of anger. Yeah, I mean, people do all the time. It was hard to hear and I was I was fearful that it was really going to go in that direction. Yeah. Because it's nothing else. That's like what I really value. Like the sanctity of marriage and being together to become one. But you're not two aren't becoming one here over time. You are becoming his. You get the difference there. Yeah. And if you were becoming his and he was becoming yours. We're playing semantics, but that would be two becoming one. Okay. The challenge for you ahead of you is you've gone to sit down with a marriage counselor, you've gone to sit down with a spiritual advisor. They've both looked at him either directly or indirectly and said, "Your wife's right here." Yeah. And he said, "I don't care." And then how do I find peace in that because I'm digging my healing? There's no peace to be had there. There's capitulation. You're an adult, so I'm not going to say what to do. You can look at the totality of the situation and say, "Okay. I'm going to choose this or I'm going to go sit down with my OBGYN and see if there's another thing I can do for the stabbing pain I deal with on a regular basis. Is there another avenue here that's not this? You can capitulate. You can say, "Okay, you're away." You can do that. That's the life you want. I want to be able to kiss. You get to choose that. You're an adult in America in 21st century or you can say, "Here's what I want. Here's what I need." And my biggest concerns with these conversations are you're taking into no account of your wife. My well-being, my heart, my body. I think that's the biggest thing for me is making sure that I have and without going into details, I've always wanted to feel more ownership over my own body. And this is very important to me. After having five pregnancies, losing two of them, three kids here on this side of heaven, I feel like my family is complete. So it's a mixture of, yes, this is for my health, but also the side effect of not having more children, I feel like it's the right way for our family to take care of my physical health, my mental health, everything. And however you believe on that issue, I support whatever you put in front of me. I'm going to say, "I'm like, thank you for sharing that." But the challenge before you is not that you've landed here. It's that your spouse doesn't care where you land because you don't get a vote. Yeah. And that's agency, that's autonomy at its deeper level. It's not about him saying, "Well, I want two more kids, and we're going to have to negotiate this out. This is hard." He says he doesn't really even want more kids, and that's the confusing part why he cares so much. Because you keep focusing on the birth control, and that's not the issue. The real issue is control control. It's a U-control, not birth control. And I, I, I, I, in no way shape or profession have any sort of, I, I, I couldn't even begin to wonder why he would choose what he's choosing. Who knows? Who knows? I feel like this is a more common issue than not in the Catholic community, and I see a lot of families, you know, friends a lot of time, my kids are in Catholic school, we go to church every Sunday, but I feel like it's not tough enough, and it makes me feel like I'm crazy, like people are. And, but then I look around, I'm one of them women with three kids, most people have two or less. So I'm like, is this, is this just something that's unspoken? What is happening here? There's a ton unspoken in all faith practices. That's one of my goals of this show is to have open conversations with people of all different beliefs and faith practices. Yeah. And we're going to say the hard truths, and we're also going to call out nonsense. And there's a lot of beautiful things about the Catholic faith. Of course it is. There's amazing things. Yeah. I'm a Catholic and I see it. Yeah. The traditions. Yeah. Here's the thing, I can't speak on the Catholic church broadly, hey, I'm not in that community, I don't want to speak about somebody else's family, right? I will speak about abusive behavior, and I will speak about controlling behavior, and I will speak about how to navigate like unsolvable problems and how to navigate abusive problems. In front of you, like it can be, it can cloud your what I do next, what's my next right step when it becomes, well, what about the whole church as a whole and what about all this unspoken silence and what about all of this, what that can lead you to do is read a whole bunch of blogs and listen to a whole bunch of podcasts and have a million cups of coffee with a million different people, but never take action steps to solve the problem in your life as we are right now. And so what I want to do is all those things are real, all those things are big, all those things are are even worth exploring. But for you right now, the question you have to ask is, what am I going to do next? And I don't see a path out without a couple of men in his life that you trust, just sit down and have a bigger conversation without you writing some things down and saying, here's what I believe to be true. Here's what I'm afraid of, here's what I'm scared of, here's the world I'm experiencing. Do you love me enough to have this conversation? Do you care about me and the mother of your kids enough to have, to hear me say, or he can say no, and then you're going to have to decide what, I'm not, I can't give you that pass. I can tell you what I would do, I can tell you what I would recommend to my close friends and family, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to give you the pass. You have to decide for yourself and for your family what's the next right move for me. And you've gotten therapeutic wisdom, you've gotten spiritual wisdom, if you have some girlfriends in your life, you can sit down, but I want you to make a wise informed decision, but you have to take full ownership of that decision, not just some knucklehead of podcaster. And maybe it's way more complex than this, but the more I hear the anger I'm getting on the inside and the more my heart's breaking for you. And so I'll stop now and wish you the absolute best, and I hope you get some wise counsel in your life, but hear me say this, you're not crazy, you're not crazy, we'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. All right, so the folks at BetterHelp just released their annual state of stigma report. It's full of all sorts of data about why so many people avoid getting help for their mental and emotional health challenges. Here's a data point that stood out to me that kind of shook me. More than three out of four Americans, three out of four reported anxiety or depression symptoms over the last two weeks. If that's you and you're carrying stress, anxiety, or depression symptoms, talking to someone can help you more than you could ever imagine. I want you to reach out to BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that matches you with one of their 30,000 plus licensed therapists based on your goals and preferences. It's easy and it's convenient, and you can message your therapist and schedule sessions right in the platform. And if the first therapist you're matched with isn't the right fit, you can switch at any time for no extra cost. Don't let stigma stand in the way of you getting the help that you need. Visit BetterHelp.com/Delony and get 10% off. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com/Delony. All right, Kelly, and her super deep V. What's up? Do you know that so in the mornings, when I'm figuring out what I'm going to wear and I get dressed, one of the things that I think about is what is John going to say. So I will have you know-- Is that all you wore your sea-cell necklace? Yes. Yeah, that's it. I was going to start doing some kidney chest knee lyrics, but I'm not going to do that. I like it. Maybe some Jimmy Buffett, you know, hey, we'd all like to feel like we're at the beach. With a cheeseburger. When we're not. Exactly. So. Oh, you look great today. Thank you. All right. I have some cool crap that happened from Esther in some city that I can't pronounce in Michigan. She writes. My husband is in a high-conflict, co-parenting situation with two teenage daughters still at home. He's in a tricky spot wanting to help his girls process the reality that they're in. Having a parent who they will always love but is very hurtful to them while never talking about about their mom. He started listening to your show or Kelly's show that John hosts. I like Esther. Shout out Esther. That was good. That was good. When the family was on long car rides. This opened up opportunities to talk about similar situations similar to theirs while keeping it safe, hypothetical distance. The first big change we noticed was that one daughter started opening up about the difficult friendships at school and how she was using your advice to handle them. More recently, she has started to share with my husband some tough situations with her mom. She is also talking about how she plans to navigate the relationships going forward as she will soon turn 18. Thank you for this. Dang. That's awesome. Good on everybody in that family. That's awesome. We could be on the car speakers on the way there. I love this is Kelly's show host a bunch of on that. That is so true in so many aspects in almost every aspect. Well done Esther, you called it out. You're the first person to ever call it out like that in. You are 100% correct. So that does it for Kelly's show that I'm a host of. Love you guys, bye. (upbeat music)