Caller: “How Do I Stop Cheating on My Girlfriends?”

I first treated on a partner back in high school. I treated on her early in the relationship and I guess from that point forward I'm not really sure why I felt such a strong inclination towards treating on her but I felt like I could do it and get away with it so I just continued to do it. You want to stop? What's going on? This is John with the Doctor John Deloni Show. Hey I'm glad that you are with us. Talking about your marriages, your mental and emotional health, your kids, whatever you got going on in your life. Pull up a seat and we're going to figure out what's the next right step for you to take in reclaiming ownership of your life, who you want to be and where you want to be, wherever it is you're going. Click the link in the show notes if you want to be on the show if you want to sit down with a phone call with me, love to have you on and it's an honor that you're here. It's got to Baton Rouge, Baton Rouge, Louisiana and talk to Jacob. What's up Jacob? Hey how's it going? I'm good man. How are you? I'm good it's an honor to speak to you. I'm very nervous. Well I echo your nervousness because I get nervous too because I'm still trying to figure out how to do this thing but I am glad that you called man. Appreciate your trust. Of course thank you. What's up? So I want to know how I can stop treating all my partners and become a more loyal partner and just overall you know a better person as a result of that. What has led you in your life to believe you are powerless to cheat on somebody? That's a good question. I would say that I first cheated on a partner back in high school, my junior year of high school. I cheated on her early in the relationship and I guess from that point forward I just continued to do so. I'm not really sure why I felt such a strong inclination towards cheating on her but I felt like I could do it and get away with it so I just continued to do it. How old are you now? I'm now 23. And you're still cheating on romantic partners? Yes. Do you want to stop? Yes. Why? It's just not the kind of person I want to be you know one day I want to be married with a family and be a good husband and also I live with a lot of guilt for the people that I've hurt by cheating and a lot of regret for it. So if you were to like cheating is a big heavy thing right and it's a violation of your values like you said it hurts people it hurts you it's just it's a thing but if we back out of it this might sound like a strange question but what problem does cheating solve in your life? It is working for you in some way and it's easy to look back on a thing that we're doing that leaves such a trail of devastation in its wake right but coming at it the other angle what does it do for you? Because it's doing something for you because you wouldn't keep doing it if it if it if it wasn't solving a problem for you. I have a couple of theories not nothing that I consciously think about when I'm cheating but just looking back in retrospect and trying to evaluate why I may have acted certain ways I think that it could be to try to give me validation. You already have that you already have that if you're dating somebody right and but the thing is that when I'm cheating with someone it's almost like I'm a lot more interested in the idea that someone not just someone obviously because I do already have a partner but that multiple people want to you know engage in physical activities with me and knowing that gives me some sort of validation that you know just one partner wanting me I guess isn't enough knowing that a lot of people want me feels more satisfying what about the other side of the what I would call the anti-validation when then this person you leave this rendezvous or this hook up and you look yourself in the mirror and you know like that was despicable and now I have to decide whether I'm gonna be a liar too and not tell my partner what's going on or I'm gonna tell them and destroy them. Yeah I think that over the course of my life I've gotten pretty good at kind of pushing down feelings of regret and things like that and I've gotten pretty good at just focusing on the moment but using that in a bad way so I don't really have to look into the future at you know how this is going to hurt the other person or look back at what a bad person I'm being sure I can just kind of clear it off my mind and just focus on okay what's what's next to that but it sounds like you have moments of profound regret or like let's just put this on a table you don't necessarily want a monogamous relationship you like the feelings you like the pursuit you like the multiple partners at the same time but you want to want that fantasy of being this iron-clad guy that somebody else can anchor into but you don't really want that I think that I do and and maybe you're right but it seems like it's almost kind of an impossible question to answer and be certain that my answer is correct well here's the thing like stop cheating right you know I mean I guess it's not there's zero rocket science here if you're dating somebody delete every other person in your phone get rid of social media and when you feel the feelings of wanting to scroll and pursue or hit a DM catch yourself in that moment and say out loud I'm not this guy right it's it's not hard the reason I'm asking these questions is like getting underneath it is do you even do you even want to stop I I do but also I guess my real question is why do I feel such a strong desire to go and get external validation from other people because I feel like if I could address that then I wouldn't feel such a strong inclination towards cheating I you're you're putting the cart before the horse we can do that we can dig into that my guess is most of the time not always but most of the time there's a either a pattern of how you received affection how you were able to prove that you were loved it could have been you only got a hug when you got straight A's or you got hit in the mouth when you got a B right you learned I need somebody else or you said hey this hurt my feelings and your mom or dad or both said no it didn't that wasn't even a big deal and you learned oh I can't trust me I've got to seek outside voices to tell me how I feel I'm okay I'm worth being loved maybe maybe not but right now you've got the cart before the horse and that is you've told yourself this story and unfortunately brother like I have to own it on behalf of the global mental health community we've told everybody being well being whole being a person of character is getting all the right thoughts in the right order first and that's false the path to character the path to virtue is action so the path for you is not I need to figure out what the path for you brother is I will never cheat again ever and then when those impulses come up which they will I'm going to begin to address this new person that I am in that way in a curious compassion away not feeling like I am some sort of slave to this internal master you know what I'm saying yeah that makes sense there's I promise you if you were to tell me today like oh this happened this happened in 15 minutes you and I solve the origin story of you needing external validation that would do nothing to your impulse to want to cheat in fact it would probably do the opposite because now you got a reason why which can be twisted to make it okay I can't help it this happened to me and so therefore I get a pass on all my future hurting other people all my future violations of my own core values I get a pass because this thing happened to me once or a whole bunch of times has happened to me you know what I'm saying yeah that makes sense and in my not my most recent relationship I cheated a lot but in the previous relationship I I didn't cheat on my partner at all until the very very end of the relationship I met a co-worker who I really liked and I never actually cheated in any physical way I just enjoyed the company of this co-worker and then broke up with that girlfriend to pursue something with the co-worker and I guess I and in that relationship I had just completely stopped using social media or deleted any girls who I thought would provide any sort of temptation off my social media and that worked until I had you know a real in-person temptation and I know that you know when I'm married I'll have you know attractive co-workers or attract your friends or whatever and I don't want that temptation to ever become too strong to where I can use as a way to avoid fixing real problems in my actual relationship yeah brother your math Half the sideways, man. Like the algorithm you've cranked out in your head on how relationships work and how the future might impact your future decisions, bro, is sideways. Like the non-shelons with which you talk about how you've hurt these other people is troubling to me. And maybe it's because we're talking you're nervous and you're just like trying to keep a steady heartbeat. But there's a sociopathic way you're like there's a there's a tenor in your voice that is very flatlined, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I will say that I've always been I've always kind of tried to be a monotone person and never sound too emotional when I'm talking. So I think that's just a habit that I've kind of built up over time. If you are destroying the lives of other people and you are you look in the mirror and you're disgusted by the man you are and how you treat others, there should be an emotional response. If you don't feel that and this is just a math problem for you, I used to want to be an engineer, but now I want to be a computer programmer that I'm going to I'm going to plead with you to stay out of romantic relationships for a while, especially ones that a person thinks you're their person and you're their only person. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, and so what do you think I should do in the meantime to try to I think you need a full 100% detox from romantic relationships, okay, I think you have to practice being in the presence of somebody who makes you feel good, which is humanity. Being around someone who's pretty or beautiful or that you're attracted to and not instantly thinking I need to conquer her so that I can feel good about myself. You got to practice being bored at 10 o'clock at night and not scrolling. You got to practice telling the truth and keeping your word to you first, right? Right. Right. But I mean, like, and you know, like you called because I'm pretty honest with folks, right? And I'm being honest from a loving place, man, I'm not sitting here in judgment of you. I'm just kind of cast in the vision in front of you of what you're telling me. Like this is human 101 stuff, right? And so you're talking about in many ways, creating a moral compass from scratch. And I'm going to tell you right now, you can't do that by yourself. You're going to have to go sit with a professional and say, hey, like, let's walk through this. I started seeing a therapist last week. Okay. But here's the thing. You're a master manipulator and this isn't a judgment accusation. This is a fact. You know this. I know this. You have to commit to telling the truth about how you don't feel, about how you use people and how you engage with them. Got it? Got it. Okay. Otherwise, you're wasting their time. You're wasting your money. There's no reason to go. Other than to give you an excuse of another failed attempt at trying to be different, which validates that this is who I am. Okay. But you're going to need some intense walking with. I did too. Okay. So it's not a judgment statement. It's just me loving you well. Okay. The second part of it is you have to put on your mirror and your apartment, on your car, on your phone. I'm a man of integrity. If you want to be more specific and you don't have a lot of visitors at your house because this would be weird. I'm a man who will never cheat. I'm a man who never lies. I'm a man who's worth being loved for me. I can do that. And then you have to reverse engineer a life that lives into that. Okay. And I'm talking about when the door to door bugs, zapper salesmen comes over and is like, Hey, we want to spray your yard instead of saying, I already have a guy or man, I just can't right now. You have to look him in the eye and say, I don't want your services right now. Thank you though. I appreciate you coming by and close the door. You have to tell the truth always. Hey man, you want to come over tonight? I can't. No, I can. Not tonight. I'm going to stay in tonight. I'm going to start owning truth. And what you'll do, hopefully, is begin to teach your body. It thinks it needs external validation like oxygen to survive. And what you will teach it is only through lived experience. I'm driving the car that is my life. And I get to choose who I am. And we, me and body here, we're going to be okay. We can feel other people's disappointment in us and get up and go again the next day and go get them. Right. Right. I have this weird sense of my guts, you're not going to do this. No, I, I really, really, I really, really do want to and I'm going to be seeing a therapist every week. And like you said earlier, I know it doesn't sound like in my voice, but I'm very much racked with guilt over the way that I've acted in a way. I feel kind of guilty that I can't, that I know that my guilt is not as painful as the pain that I put other people through. Um, and that, that, that maybe a protective measure. I, because you're seeing a mental health professional, bring this up to them. Don't do this on your own. But if you were seeing me, if I was sitting with you, just, you and I were having nachos, I would suggest right each one of the women you cheated on, a letter and put yourself in that position when you saw their face, when you told them, and write the letter of apology. Don't send it. But begin to acknowledge the, what you put other people through. Write yourself a letter after every one of those interactions. This is the man. I know it feels like you're, we're falling apart. I know it feels like we're never going to get over this. We're never going to treat somebody with dignity and honor. But I'm making the changes at 23, future you is going to put an end to this. You what I'm saying? Yep. Make a choice today. I'm done cheating. I'm going to be a person. I'm integrity. Even if that means I have nobody, even if that means I feel lonely, even if that means this big feeling in my chest is screaming at me, told you you're not lovable to, I know, but I don't do that. I don't do that. Come on, man. Day one. We come back, a woman asks how to help her 14 year old son navigate his fixation with sex and girls. We'll be right back. All right, we've got less than 90 days until the full weight of the holiday season is upon us. And you know how it goes. Every year as the calendar starts filling up, you tell yourself, I'm not going to let the holiday madness get to me this year. I'm going to slow down and actually enjoy the holidays. I'm going to actually be present, not just physically in whatever room. I happen to find myself in. And then you're racing around the dinners, parties, kids activities, it's madness and you're drained and the holidays become a burden. 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Go to Thorn.com/theletter, use/delony, and get 25% off your order when you create an account. That's THOR in. thorn.com/delitteru/delony. All right. We're back. Like, subscribe, share all the goods. Let's go out to Burlington Coat Factory Vermont and talk to Melissa. Hey, Melissa. What's up? Hey, it's such an honor to be able to speak with you today. That's an honor to talk to you. Thanks for calling. It's going on. Yeah. So I'm calling today because I would love your advice on how I can best find out what you're going to do. Yeah. I just need some guidance as a mother. Okay. If you're watching this, you have to notice that you'll notice that my face just smiled. Did it automatically? I didn't mean to. Okay, Melissa. My impulse is to say, yeah, because he's a 14-year-old boy. He's a 14-year-old boy. But you wouldn't be calling if this was normal. So Tom, paint me a picture of what's going on. Yeah. Let me stop. I want to retract. I should not have used the word normal here. Okay. That was a bad word on my part. I don't know. I don't know. I already cast a vision that your son somehow abnormal. Okay. That was false fake. That was wrong on my part. I apologize. All right. But you wouldn't be calling if there wasn't something that was concerning you. I don't know. Beyond the 14-year-old boy going through puberty and suddenly he's like, ooh, right? Yeah. So paint me that picture. No. So you can tell me if this is normal or not. And you can tell me if this is a me problem. Right? So over the last six months there's just been a series of events that have just, you know, my red flag is going up in my brain. Okay. It started when I discovered that he had been looking at me. And I discovered that he had been looking up porn on my computer. Okay. I had generally in the house we don't allow the kids access to the internet. But I'd let him use my computer for homework. Once I discovered it, we put the kebash on that. And I'm like, you know, that's my bad for allowing him to get access to that. And then during the summer, this is the more worrisome pattern that I'm seeing is that he is kind of hopping from girlfriend to girlfriend. And breaking up with them after they aren't doing things with him physically that he wants them to be doing. Yeah. And that, you know, like the first girlfriend, he started getting attention from another girl that he met and this new girl was sending him some provocative texts, with definitely a little bit more kind of confident and sexual in general being, you know, she's 13. But he then broke up with his girlfriend. And his girlfriend said, well, was it because I wouldn't make out with you? And he knew better. And he said, no, no, it's not because of that. But from what I could tell, as soon as this new girl came on the scene, and kind of offered him more physical experiences potentially, he was all about that. And then with this new girl after a couple of weeks, she retracted some of that. And she said, and good for her, she's like, Agno, I talked about doing all this stuff with you, but I'm actually not comfortable with it. He broke up with her less than a week later. And then immediately moved on to another girl. And so maybe this is normal. Maybe he's just figuring this out. But with all of the kind of cultural garbage out there, it makes me concerned that he's objectifying these young girls. And he isn't, I don't know, that he's starting down a path. And I would just love to make sure that he's not going to continue down that path. If that makes sense. So I'm in a quandary here. Okay. And I'm going to be honest as I can. I'm trying to do a better job on the show of telling what's going on in my head instead of just saying things because it's a consent abrupt. What's going on in my head is I have a concerned mom on the phone with me. And that, to me, is one of the most sacred interactions I can have. A mom or a dad saying, I'm worried about my kid. And on the other side. I have a mom. And I'm assuming his dad around. Where's dad in all this? Yeah, we are separated, but we cope. I'm like, you probably don't hear this a lot. We are amazing co-parents. Okay. Yeah. What's dad's response been to this? He is not aware of it. He does not have the insight into the son's text messages like I do. Okay, so I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to start, I'm going to start challenging you hard. Is that cool? We're still friends? Promise? Yes, please, please. Okay. Number one story you've made up. We're amazing co-parents. You are not. Because you're not sharing this really powerful important thing that your son desperately needs a grown man to sit down with him. Okay. So the fantasy you've created is we're amazing co-parents, but you've got this huge secret about his son that you're keeping from him. Okay. I do have a little bit of context to add there, but if you want to continue. Go for it. Go for it. Okay. Because here's the other side of it. Dad makes sure I'm on. I know those men. They're like, oh, hill. Yeah, I'm not 14. You're a boy. Okay. So if that's the case, then you all have, you all have, like this. We're amazing co-parents is, it takes on a different tenor. Amazing co-parents when they're young is, are you going to pick them up? Or do we always keep our agreements? Are we, are drop-offs pleasant? As you get older, we start getting into really rich value territory. Do we share the same values? We're trying to raise the same kind of human. Totally. And I think that we are good about a lot of that. And my ex has been really struggles with difficult conversations with anybody in his life. And that is a big reason why we aren't married anymore. So sex especially is a hot button topic. If I were to share this with him, he would stick his head in the sand and not say anything to his son about it. So I haven't. Absolutely. I'm heartbroken for your son over that. But he has a wonderful stepfather who I have spoken to about that. Does he, does he trust that man? Yes. Can they go out to breakfast and not have the sex talk? Because that your 14 year old will be in wide eyed fight or flight or head down. Just I got aware of the storm and then get on about his life. And because making out is awesome. Like in whether this lecture here comes or will he commit to a we're going to go to breakfast every day. I mean, every week to you graduate. That's a new rhythm in our house. That is something that I want so so much. And that that relationship is not there. Yes, I think I think it can be. I think I need to have a more direct conversation with my husband about potentially. Can you step in that gap in that season? Absolutely. Will he listen to his mother? I thought you know, does he want to talk to this stuff about me? You know, talk about this stuff with. So that's going to be the second part here. Yeah. You use the phrase, I'm worried about the path he's on. And given the context of the world he lives in. You put him in a car, handed him the keys, taught him how to drive. And now you're worried that he's driving. What do I mean? What do I mean by that? A 14 year old shouldn't be out dating. 14 year old shouldn't have a phone that he's texting other 14 year old girls with. And any sort of capacity where any sort of pictures are being exchanged. A 14 year old. I would say that. Go ahead. Sorry. The phone is completely locked down and it has this whole operating system on it. It is not just a regular cell phone. I just I just want to throw that out there. It's great except when this other provocative 13 year old who's over her skis is sending pictures. That's deleted and blocked kid. Sorry. No, if she has not sent pictures, it was all verbal. But you get what I'm saying. You get what I'm saying. I do. I do. And none of this is comfortable. Yes, it's developmentally appropriate for a 14 year old boy to want to see naked people. 100%. Totally. There's a totally developmentally appropriate for a 14 year old boy to be curious about how sex work. Oh my gosh. She doesn't have any clothes on. That's amazing. Or he doesn't have any clothes on. That's amazing. Or she doesn't have any clothes on. [BLANK_AUDIO] You know what I mean? - Yeah. - Oh, totally, totally. - Just like an incredible glass of wine, just like a fist fight is awesome if you're in MMA training and you've got a good training partner. It's not a good idea in a bar in the middle of the night, right? Like so, like teaching time and place and context. And yes, like, you're not gonna wanna come in here, right? Like letting him know this is a normal, awesome thing. And this isn't how we treat young women. Yeah, I think it's that last part that I'm not sure how to, other than living my life to reflect that value. Like, I'm not sure how to talk to him about that. Or if he would listen to me as his very uncool mother. - Yes, he will watch you way more than he listens to you. - Okay. - And what I mean by that is he'll see the affection you have for your husband, for a stepdad. He'll see the things, kids are incredibly absorbent on what are no fly zones in this house and what are. And if they know something is off limits, we can't talk, we can't ask questions. Like you said, dad will bury his head, he'll turn beat red. They will learn quickly. This is something we don't talk about. But what that also, especially now, for me growing up, that meant you have to go find somebody's dad who has a brother who's got a playboy somewhere. That world's over. It's everywhere. And so if I haven't created a world where any question can be asked, where there's, we laugh, we have fun, we show respect. Like there is no such thing as an off limits conversation. If I don't have that, they'll get a really quick handle on what is like an off limits conversation and they're gonna go find it somewhere else. And I'll be damned if my kids are gonna find it first, they'll find it 'cause that's life. If they're gonna find it first from somebody else. You got what I'm saying? - I do and conceptually that is something I've always wanted to give him is a household where he can come to me with any question, bigger small, any problem, bigger small. Like nothing's off limits. And I find him being very, very private. And so I wonder if my execution of my intentions has just not been as effective as maybe they could have been. - So I'm gonna throw a few things out, okay? - Okay. - And make a mental checklist of these. You don't have to even answer me, okay? How often, since he was eight, nine, or 10, till 14, have you, if he's in bed and you're land by him in bed, and you know, just chitchat and then he's gotta, he's got a lamp on our star, can be said, what is sex like for middle schoolers? Or are boys and girls already, are people already making out? What is making, what is the word making out mean to you? 'Cause it used to mean French kissing and now it means like oral sight. Like what is making out mean? And like you begin, you wanna create a world where he understands he can ask questions, then you model it by, I'm gonna ask you questions. I'm gonna trust that you are the self-proclaimed expert of your world and I'd love to be invited into it. No mom, no, no. Oh man, that's crazy. 'Cause when I was a kid, shush. - Right? And then he starts to get a picture, a 360 degree picture of not this boring mom, but this grown woman who's also was in middle school, who may have also felt pressured to be somebody she wasn't in order to win the affection of a teenage boy. And you begin to open those doors for him and he begins to see there's human beings beside behind this pursuit. There's something powerful, regardless of how you approached the world that you sit down when you're 14 year old and say, your life's been real hard. And dad's just supposed to talk about sex, dad's just supposed to talk about girls, dad's supposed to talk about dating and relationships with their sons. And you only get to see your dad a couple of times a week or a couple of times a month, or however you all have got it arranged. And so letting him know, I should have been having these conversations with you and I have it, I'm sorry. - Yeah, yeah. - But and they don't launch into a big, so the man has testicles. So don't do the film strip but we all had to watch, right? - No, no. - But there is a, and you can tell, world's about to change for you, brother. And like just no. And by the way, we're having breakfast every Tuesday till you graduate. And I will make that a priority. And what you will send, the message you will send to him is way bigger than we are gonna talk about. It will be mom always moved things around and did a thing for me. That's an anchor point that I can say, hey, mom, guess what? I like a girl. - Yeah, I think that that will be, I heard you give that that suggestion so many times and I have always found, you know, I have three children and I work full time and I've always like that. - No, it's impossible. It's impossible. - But it needs to happen and I would move mountains for my children. So, you know. - Yeah. - It, it, it, it, or a walk after dinner after the other two are asleep. He's 14. Is he the oldest? - Yeah. - Yeah, you have to put your phone away and go for a walk with your mom. We do this every night. - Yeah. - And by the way, he'll roll his eyes. He'll get mad. - Mom, I have homework. I'm in the middle of a game. What, it doesn't matter. We do this and he will tell that story at your funeral. I would on a walk every night with my mom for four years. On every Tuesday, we went to this crappy diner and we both had a race to see who got diarrhea first but we did it every time for five years, right? - Yeah. - That's the anchor point. - That's the kind of mom I want to be. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to do that for them. - And you call this out. This is so important. This can't happen in a vacuum. This is you and your new husband getting in a room and saying, okay, the way we've done things changes now. And you look at him and say, you got breakfast two days and Wednesdays 'cause that's when I take the kids out, one on one. - Yeah. - And you-- - It's gonna have to be a team, a team effort. - Absolutely. And you've got laundry now on this day and this day. I don't know, you all think it's divided up. I'm just making stuff up, but you know what I mean? Like, this is the new ecosystem because this thing is now, we don't fit morning breakfast into our existing life. Our existing life now works around one on one time with these kids that are growing up so fast we can't see straight. That's the new. That becomes a new priority. So how do we loop this thing? How do we create a world where this is priority? And hopefully you married a new guy that's like game on. And hopefully he's a man who says, I wanna be a part of this and that's gonna be a slow, slow integration of your, and your 14 year old may never get there with him. Like, I'm not talking to this string. That may never happen. Or he may feel such an allegiance to his birth. There's always this weird. If I give stepdad this information or have this kind of relationship somehow, it's a disloyal to my birth father, even the birth father's not there for this conversation. So I'll say it's messy. It's messy, it's messy. Yes, it is developmentally appropriate for 14 year old boys to wanna see naked girls. It is developmentally appropriate for boys to be curious about what body parts feel like, what they look like, what making out feels like. Yes, all that's appropriate for them to want that. It is not wise for the unfettered access. That's why they have parents to protect them from those impulses and to help over time contextualize those impulses to the right, to the right relationships, the right circumstances, the right environment. So thanks for the call. You're a good mom, Melissa. You're a good, good mom. And now it's time to go 15 layers deeper and love this boy well. Game on, I'd love to hear all these conversations go. If you wanna haul her back, I'd be really fascinating to hear how they're going. I wish you guys the best. We come back, a woman asks if she should change careers before it's too late. We'll be right back. Here's something most people don't think about. You wake up a little stiff, a little tired, and you figure that's just how sleep is nowadays, but the truth is you've gotten so used to the mattress you've been sleeping on for the last 10 or 15 or 20 years that you don't even realize how bad your mattress actually is. And it may be while you're not sleeping well. And I gotta say this too, old mattresses get gross. Now is the time to finally get a new mattress and switch to Helix. Sleeping on a Helix mattress will help you sleep better and better sleep affects everything else, including your attitude, your emotional regulation, and your health. 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If you are on an Apple device, go right now over to the app store and pick up the together app for you and your spouse. You can do it in one player mode. I know there's millions of people at my spouse would never pick this app up. I get that. You can do it by yourself or you can bring them on. You don't charge any more extra money. You can both do it for the same price. It's like less than six bucks a month. It's like one cup of coffee. That's it. A month. I see you all sorts of tools for coming together. By the way, if you've checked it out before and you're like, "Ah, we have added so much stuff to it. We've added a conflict framework. We've added a communication framework for basically starting to put in scripts. If this happens, what do I say? How do I introduce this conversation? All sorts of things that help you lean in and become the person you want to be in your marriage knowing I said the thing. I had the conversation and I treated my partner with dignity with respect. So I knew the next right step to take. I've got a group of some of the most amazing developers on the planet actively putting tons of stuff in there having customer interviews. By the way, the customer interviews are coming back. They made me weep. They have made me like cheer folks who have come back from infidelity. Folks who are trying to find their way back together after somebody cheated on each other, after financial infidelity, after just the roommate drift. We've just got two kids, three kids, four kids, nine kids, two jobs, two dogs, and we're just roommates. How do we find our way back to each other? That's what the together app is for. Micro habits for your marriage that will transform everything. Go check it out in the app store and Android folks. We are so close, so close. Hang in there with us and we'll unleash it hopefully sooner rather than later. Scott's a Greenville, South Carolina and talk to Sarah. What's up Sarah? Dr. John, how are you? Awesome. How are you? I'm good. It's so crazy to hear your voice on the phone after listening to you for years. I'm excited. I'm glad you called. That's really cool. What's up? So, I have spent four years in undergrad, a year on a certificate, and now several years in graduate school to become qualified for a particular job in a particular field. And now that I have that job in that field, I'm not sure that it's what I want to do at all. My question is, is this the best I know? I know. I know. Is it the best time to make a change because I'm so early in the game or is it the worst time to make a change because I'm so early in the game? If it is something that is your finding is a violation of your values, meaning I can't be a part of, I didn't realize this industry involved this or involved that or this is asking me to work like in this capacity and I don't, it's just not aligned with who I want to be in the world. I'm trying to think of, let's say you go get a finance degree and then you get a master's of accountancy and then you go work at a bank and you're a lender and you have this deep seated like belief that borrowing money isn't good for people. Like stop doing that job. Give yourself, not immediately, you got to pay your bills, but give yourself an exit round, right? Because that's not long term that's not going to work out. My concern for you is a challenge I ran in with almost every graduate student I worked with who went straight through is it's less about the job and it's this recognition. This is the rest of your life. You've been a student since you were four. So if that's the case, I would tell you, get as good as you possibly can at the thing you're doing, even if you quote unquote, aren't passionate about it or whatever and also look for adjacent skills that will make you the person you want to be on the job market. You what I'm saying? Yeah. I do. Let's say hypothetically, it's a combination of both and how comfortable are you speaking not in hypotheticals? Are you worried someone's going to find out? Well, let's say hypothetically, it's government related and it might be a temporary violation of values, but not indefinitely, and there's no way to tell how long or in what ways at this stage. I don't do temporary violations at my value. Good point. Because that's a permanent mark on my character. That's who I am. Or at a meta level, I'm a guy who will bend my own values for a minute, and I don't want to be that guy. You what I'm saying? I do. I do. And can we be honest, unless it's a particular government job, government jobs will come and government jobs will go, right? Yeah. I'm finding that's true. Also. Yes. And so is there a possibility that you take the skill sets you have and you go work at a place that's aligned with who you want to be in the world and then one day if a position opens up which it for sure will, you make your way back. That is a possibility. I'm hoping it's a probability. I think that I'm a little bit in the head space of I've spent so much time on this. There are a lot of friends and family members and people in my circle who are invested. And they don't get a vote sister. You got to look you in the mirror. Well, and if they've always gotten a vote, then it's time for them not to get a vote. And that's a lot of work. Do you not stay in a job because your mom likes telling her friends at church. That's where you work. You got it? Okay. Yeah. Do not stay in a job because your dad, you see him lean back and do that big smile he has when he's talking to his boys and he's like, my daughter's a fill in the blank. Yeah. They don't have that like my god, like you're you're you're melting yourself from the inside out. It violates who you want to be in the world just to make I'm doing that. I'm also I'll say I'm also unless they are saying, I want you to do this thing. And that thing is illegal. That thing is immoral. I am not a fan of big like audacious. I quit. Have it. Let the let the boat get close to the dock before you jump off the dock. Your next boat that's going to take you where you want to go. Get another job. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I agree. I think that there's the question that I have come up against from the people that I have spoken to about it. And there are very few of them, but it's it's a why was this like in all of these years, you didn't have any sort of clue into that this wouldn't be what you actually want. That's a stupid question. Stupid question. Not even with an answer. Yes. I a smart question is, did you not ever have coffee with somebody who actually did this job to find out what the job was about because that was done. And that's a failure on the education system for not putting you in like not in recruiting meetings where they're trying to convince you how great everything is, but where you go have coffee with like one of the greatest things my dad ever did for me was when I told him I wanted to be an FBI agent, he took me to do the head of basically the chief psychologist for a giant metropolitan police department. And I got an hour with that guy at 20 and that guy said, Hey, here's what grad school will look like. Here's the path. Here's the thing. Here's the challenges you're going to rip against. But I walked away saying that's not going to be the job for me. But otherwise I would have gone full force. I would have probably gone to law school. I would have done everything I could to get that job and I would have got there had I not sat down and had a couple of coffee with somebody who was generous enough to give me an hour of their time. And by the way, everyone on the planet, no one loves the question. Like can I ask you about you? Everyone's like, Oh, yeah. Love talking about me, right? So yes, if you didn't, if you didn't have that, that was dumb. And I won't blame you 19 year old or 20 year old. I'll blame the people around you for not coaching you will. But it's a dumb question to look back and go, how did you not know? Because you don't know until you're there, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because I had multiple of those there were there were those all along the way. And I think those people, which is part of a part of what prompted my call is that those people who put in recommendations for me and kind of expect their next out for me and helped elevate me into this position, walking away from it feels disrespectful to them and to the people that were in this program with me and who I knew would kill to have the same opportunity. And there's a lot of, it's charged for some reason. I don't really know how to, I wouldn't know how to face them. I wouldn't know how to, how to answer to them. I'm still trying to work it all out. I want you to answer to you first. And I've written a number of recommendation letters for some of the brightest folks that I readily expect I'll be working for some day that were students of mine. And if they came to me with resolve and said, "I was on this path and I ran into this blocker, I ran into this ethical dilemma, I ran into this value violation." I took this path. I would say as an educator, as somebody who's a mentor, I did my job, which is, "Know you're true North, over and above any stupid job." Right? Right. And so I would cheer them on, even if I made a phone calls for you, yup, I got in there buying the curtain and that was not for me. Yeah, exactly. And I'm a grown up, if colleagues call me like, "Nice recommendation to Loneigh, they already left." I got, that's the one on the chin for me. And that's also why, like, honestly, I told more students, "No, I can't write your record. I don't know you that well. I didn't work with you in that capacity. You weren't one of my student leaders that I worked in with day in and day out and we built a thing together." Like, I don't know you that well. You weren't one of my graduate students and so I would say no a lot for that very reason. I don't want to be selective, but so let me ask you this. I'm still torn and coach me on this. Is it just like growing up sucks? Like there's this like, "Oh, I do this every day and then die, right? Is there that part of it?" Because that's a real, I mean, I wish there was like, it's easy to be like, "You need to grow up." No, there's a real death to childhood. Your childhood was prolonged because you went to grad school. Right after I went to grad, right after high school. So you drug it out as long as you could, but there's a death to it. And now I got to be somewhere every day at a clock or seven o'clock or five o'clock, whatever. And I got to wear this outfit. I got, especially if you're working for the government, I got to do, I got to speak how they speak. I got to go to these trainings, get these, all that stuff. I can't tell if it's that or if it is you're there and politics is an absolute dumpster fire right now. In that case, that rolls over every two years. I'm not going to do something to cancel law or what a future administration is going to like hold me accountable for and court because I violated the law of the Constitution. But dude, I've worked for lots of places. I didn't agree with the boss, but I agreed with who we were trying to help. Right. Yes, yes, all of the above. I think that there's certainly, there's truth to the fact, like I of course, like this is the first time that I'm following this type of schedule and in this environment. And there's like, you know, it's different in practice than it always has been in theory. There is that. But I feel, I feel like it's more of the latter, which is I, I didn't exactly know what my work and what my contributions would be in service. I always just knew conceptually speaking and now that I'm there and working every day hard, I am questioning what that work ethic and what my energy like is the thing that it is, the end that it is serving really worthwhile or is it what I'm really aligned with. And you're right. It changes. It changes every two, every four, every six years. And it's a very different, it's a, it's a different game. It's a different mentality than it was when I started all of this and I'm uncertain. There's a lot of uncertainty. Yeah. Totally. And that's the word I'm hearing most common from my folks, my buddies in services and federal organizations and state organizations that were uncertainty, which I hate because a leader's job is to provide a foundation, not chaos, right? I get that. On the other side, can I, can I challenge you hard? Yes. I hope you would. Two big challenges. Challenge number one. And this is going to sound disrespectful and unenlightened and blah, blah, blah. How old are you? 25. Okay. I haven't road tested this because I'm saying this for the first time in my life ever right now. Okay. So if I say it and then the YouTube commenters come back, they might be right. Okay. Or Kelly might tell me off the air. If you're 25, you're not at the contribution stage yet. That's fair. Yeah. You're at the grinding, learning, um, doing over and over and over, learning the ropes. And it's not to say that you won't provide contribution. That's not fair. But like, and it's not to say you're not providing, um, I'm trying to think like if I hired a 25-year-old producer for the or assistant producer for this show, right, they're not like, they're going to contribute. The show's going to get out and they're going to have a role to play in getting the show out. That's important. They're making that contribution. No question about it. What in terms of impacting how I talk to people, what I say, they got to put some time in before they're going to sit down and say, Hey, Delaney, you shouldn't say that. Kelly's earned that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like as she's earned that as my friend and as someone who's been in this industry for a bunch of years. And as somebody who says, you might be clinically right, but I'm a mom. And that didn't sound right to me, right? And so like, that's what I'm saying when it comes to contribution. And so like, understanding like, what's my, why aren't I not the leader like, dude, 25, your brand new hit that gas pedal and crank it, right? And the contribution part will come over time when someone says this woman is brilliant. She works harder than anybody here. She knows this craft, whatever the craft is better than anybody. She's the person we want to take help drive this roller coaster that we're all on. That's number one. Okay? Here's number two. And this is the, this is really unfair of me, but it was unfair when this was said to me, so I'm going to say it to you as I call, I'm going to pass this unfairness on. I'm going to be as vague as I can. I have a several men in my life who I call like who are, I'm different. I am the man I am because they invested in my life. Okay? And so it's deeper than a mentor. It's a, it's a, it's a Yoda. It's a guide. And there's four or five men in my life who fall into that category, okay? And the thing happened at a university that I was asked to do something that was wrong. It violated my course sense of value. And so I said, I will not do that thing. And to my current boss at the time's credit said, I understand that, I will do it and take that from you because I, I honor that that is a violation of your values. But the fact that that thing was still happening didn't sit well with me. And so sitting down with this, with this, I'm trying to think of a right word. Sitting down with one of my Yoda's, how about that? I laid out the situation, here's where I feel at conflict, here's where to their credit, they took this conflict from me because it was a violation of my core values. And they said, you're right and we'll, we'll own it. But the fact that it's still happening doesn't sit well with me. And here's what this mentor of mine said. And I'm passing it on to you and I hope it haunts you for the rest of your life too. Right? Cause it haunted me bad. He said, John, you are free to go. What's happened? Wasn't right? Well, you're asked to do. Wasn't right. What's going to, what's going to happen even without you being a part of it, isn't right? You're free to go. You're right. And if everyone leaves, the people you're trying to help will still be there. And so there is something and it goes against our current media ecosystem, especially social media that sometimes the boldest thing to do is to hand in your letter of resignation. But sometimes the most gangster thing to do is to say, I'll, I will continue to stay here and love people well despite what's happening. But that line he gave me of, you can go but the people you love and care about, they'll still be stuck here. And if everyone with a voice walks out, right? Right. Right. Now I left. I left. I left. Right. I left. But I have since stayed many a time because of that sentiment. I'm going to take the. Do you have questions about the first I want I want to know what you think about the. I agree entirely that I'm not only not in the contribution stage yet. I probably won't be for another five or so years here, specifically my where where I feel not entirely clear is if I spend the next five years working to be a contributor here, then I can be by 20 31 I can be contributing here or if I spend the next five years. If I shift and spend the next five years working on learning how to become a contributor somewhere else by that same year, I could be doing something entirely different well. Sure. Totally true. And yeah. Totally true. And that's where I get stuck again. Um. Yeah. Yes, to both counts. And so instead of feeling stuck, feel grateful that you got multiple paths. - Yeah. - And the question, I'll give you the exact scenario I used, okay, so I worked with students from 2000, from 2000, I was in education all the way till, I think it was about 20, 2011 or 12 is when I suddenly everything shifted, when my students, there's almost an overnight switch and Jonathan Heights written a lot about it. When my students went from, hey, I'm like so and so struggling with drinking, so and so struggling with drug challenges, so and so struggling with what they wanted to be when they grow up, to almost overnight, my whole job shifted to a number of students who were threatening suicide, worried about wanting to stay alive anymore, right? And I knew, I need to get news, I don't have the skill set at this level to, I knew how to sit with hurting people but I didn't have the skill set at the policy level at the legal level, I needed to, I got to go learn. So I started going to, that's when I went and got back to second PhD in counseling, I need to learn this thing, right? - Yeah. - And also, I was kind of getting tired of the university system. And so I begin to ask myself what are things I can do, what are some skills I can pick up along the way so that if I ever do make a transition, out of this world, what would that look like? And so here's a couple of things I did. I went to grad school and made it a really, not to get a degree, I wanted to become really good at helping hurting people, which is a different mindset than I wanna get a degree, right? The second thing I did is I made a commitment, I think in 2013, I'm gonna say yes to every single solid speaking request I get, every one of them. Seven people, 7000, I'm gonna say yes to everything, because I wanna get good at this thing called communicating to a public audience. And I also, so I've made several commitments like that. Never, there was no such thing as a podcast in 2013. Never knowing that my whole job would be this, oh, the other one was I worked with attorneys at the time at a law school. I wanna become a really excellent, excellent writer. Had no idea that I was gonna take a job where I was a writer and a public speaker, like, right? So I wanna get really good at a few set of skills that I thought would help me wherever I ended up. And I ended up taking another job in higher ed. I loved it, it was rad, and so it was just a context shift, but I really got good at a few skills. So you have to ask yourself, is staying in this thing for five years what skills could you pick up, right? And, or I need to cut bait and go learn a whole new trade so that at 30, I'm good to go. I would suggest that who God knows what's 35 years from now with the world's gonna look like. - Right. - You might need to be a farmer, right, who knows? Or there might be like robots flying around us, doing whatever we want, like, who knows, right? But ask yourself what is the skill set I wanna have in five years and can being here and deciding, I'm gonna be excellent at this job right now and learn how to do this craft well and the adjacent craft well, like writing and sitting with hurting people. And for me, in public speaking, like, who knows what doors are open later on because you have those skills and five and a half years of great service wherever you happen to be. So, man, great conversation, you are awesome, Sarah. I wish I could give you an answer, but you have to look yourself in the mirror and say, I'm making this call. Every call you make, every decision you make is gonna have consequences and they're gonna have opportunities. When you make the call, put your eyes forward don't look in the rear view mirror and say, okay, I own to this choice, I made it. It might cause me some relationships, it might be some drama, it might be, I'm gonna make a five year commitment and it's gonna be hard, but I'm in it. And look forward to where you wanna go. Thanks for the call, sister, you're awesome, we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Better Health. Every year, you tell yourself you're going to handle the holidays differently this year. Maybe stay calmer, feel more peace, but then it's the same old pattern. It shows up every year, the same family tension, the inability to keep healthy boundaries and you're cranky and tired and you find yourself snapping at people that you love and actually like being around. This year can be different. You still have time to get ahead of all of the holiday chaos and understand what's behind your reactions and come up with a plan. Therapy can help you build a healthier plan before you actually need it. When you're ready to have that conversation, I recommend Better Health. Better Health is an online therapy platform with more than 30,000 licensed therapists, which means you can find one who can help you feel more peaceful this holiday season or whatever your needs and goals are. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions right in the app so Better Health fits into your life not the other way around. And if your first therapist isn't the right fit, you can switch anytime for no extra cost. Listen, you know what's coming this holiday season. This year, you have time to stay calm ahead of all the holiday chaos by preparing differently. Go to betterhelp.com/delony for 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P. com/delony or click the link in the description. All right, we're back. Kelly, something awesome happened. What is it? - Yes, I have an email from Andrea in Indianapolis. And if you have any cold crap that happened, not you personally, John. I don't wanna hear about your cold crap. But anybody else out there has any cool things that happen. Please let us know, email it to us. We would appreciate it. All right, Andrea writes, "I've been actively working at building a community post divorce in a new city during my mid-life years." Oh, I'm sorry, because that sounds really hard. - Yeah, that checks every box of this school. - Yeah, new city mid-life post divorce. Well, just wait. Making friends as in adulthood is as challenging as they say. At work, I chatted with a contractor on one of our big projects and we realized we had a lot in common. We spontaneously decided to grapple and together that same day. She included her spouse in a few of his co-workers. It ended up being a great time of meeting new people. We swapped numbers and planned to hang out again soon. I may not take up this new friend's offer of going on a blind date with her ex-husband. - Why? That's a hundred, that's a yes every time. How would you turn that down? - But at least we had a great lunch. If the blind date happens, I'll call into the show to update you on the assumed mayhem. - Oh, please. - Thanks for providing examples of ways we adults can connect with those around us, but also encouraging us to take the first step. - Awesome, that's a big one. I'm just gonna meet with us, go have lunch with a stranger. Oh, and stranger's bringing other strangers? Man, I would have felt that- - And stranger, what's your to date her ex-husband? - Everyone needs that friend in your life. Like that's a friend that, listen, you may go to jail with that friend, but you're gonna have some stories with that friend. That's a good friend to have. And man, for the sake of the show, probably shouldn't date your new friend's ex. - But also for the sake of the show, please could you? - Yeah, but for like just me and Kelly, just please, please do this, go on the state. That would be incredible. What are you gonna, what are you gonna talk about? Like when they go to lunch and be like, did he try this move? Like what are you like, and what are you gonna look? You'd be like, yeah, actually he did. And she's like, it's so great, but watch out. No, no, ah. - No, I don't like any of that. - But I kind of do, it's kind of awesome. But no, don't do that, but do it, do it. (upbeat music)