Caitlin Clark’s Throat-Punch Has Everyone Talking and Callie Fin Talks Pregnancy and Parasociality

It's Bob and everybody, it's Logan Murdock here from The Ringer, the 2025-2026 NBA season is here and we got your group podcast needs covered. On The Ringer NBA show, be sure to check out Group Chat with Justin Barrier, Rob Mahoney and Jake Hyleman on Sundays and Wednesdays and real ones. On Tuesdays and Fridays with myself, Rajabell, and Howard Beck, get your Ringer-related NBA podcast fix on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And of course, come find us on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at The Handle Ringer NBA. Welcome to The Ringer WNBA Show, we're at the SOGI. We have a great interview coming up with Kelly Finn of USA Today. We talked about being pregnant while covering the WNBA. Women's sports as a unique universe that allows people to show up as their whole selves and parasociality, covering Asia Wilson, the ACE is honestly a fascinating conversation, especially towards it and I really recommend listening to the whole thing. We talked for a while but I think it was worth it. But before we get to that, we have to talk about the throat punch herd around the world alongside a couple of other WNBA topics. So Caitlin Clark and the idiot Fever played the sprickery today and Alyssa Thomas is the latest winner of these Gays are trying to kill me award for the player who fucked up Caitlin Clark. The worst, also I can say that. But for real though, like the league is obviously physical with Caitlin Clark and every once in a while a player does take it too far. The latest is Alyssa Thomas who got in a toss with her going for a loose ball and actually picked up her hand from her shoulder and jammed it into her throat and kept it there for a little while. I'm sure she would say it was an accident but it's kind of one of those dream on green things where it's like Alyssa Thomas is so often at the scene of the crime. She is often sneakily throwing an elbow just using her body to throw around at players and this is a little bit, you know, it's kind of just what she does. It was I think an unequivocally dirty play before you even consider the history between these teams and what happened in Wednesday's game and look like this is one of those moments where you hate to feed the trolls but at the same time like let's just be so fucking for real. Like there are definitely players in the league that are weird about Caitlin Clark. It started with Kennedy Carter shuffling her on an in balance play before she even had the ball. That was 2024 and people tried to tell us that this was normal. This is a physical league. This happens all the time in the WNB. I've watched a lot of WNBA since then. I have not seen anything like that play since Lexi Brown and her podcast said in 2025 about the rookie class in 2024. Last year it was like complete hostility going into the season. It was insane. I've never felt like anything like that going into a season. Marina Maybreed, Shubb Caitlin Clark to the ground last year and then in an interview with Sue Bird this off season, reflected on that moment said that she went too far. I said it was shameful, ridiculous, it was too much. This is a thing that happens. I just don't think that we can pretend that that's not the case and Alyssa Thomas is one of those players that I think has a lot of animosity towards Clark and the fever fan base. I'm not saying any of it is unwarranted. I think she called them out for being the fan base over being racist in 2024 and from what I read about that Connecticut game and he can sign it seemed like it was pretty messed up. There's obviously the Dewanne Bonner side of all of this stuff. But at the end of the day, this just cannot be how you handle stuff. Like this cannot be how you handle stuff and at a certain point, like the league has to step in. The fever has to do more, you know, they just, I mean, yeah, it's Sophie Cunningham. You have Meisha Heinz Allen. The Goon squad has to be on alert and if you're the league, I just, I think that this calls for a suspension. It just calls for some sort of legitimate action. And I think like there will be people who push back against that and I'm not saying that there's like every player has something against Caitlin Clark. But when these things happen to her, it is often pretty egregious and I feel like every effort that the league and the media has made to downplay when these things happen only make it worse. Like there's a strizad effect to all of this too that like I really do feel like if a league just steps in and issues what it feels like it should be an obvious suspension, you know, the quicker we all move on from this, hopefully Caitlin Clark is okay. She left the game with a back injury in the third quarter. I don't know if it was related. There are also a couple of reckless closeouts on her three pointers, which Steph White actually had a lot to say about all of this. All actually, let's play that clip. During the game. Have you seen that to that? Have any impact on her health and this one? I just saw it. I'm not sure about any impact on the health or her health or not, but it was egregious. The fact that it was a no call. I heard about it in half time. I brought it to the attention of the officials in half time. Yeah, we still had 11,000 in the fourth quarter to there too. They still shot 24 free throws in the second half. I just number one. You got a calling. It's absolutely egregious and utterly disrespectful. And then number two, you're coming in here aware of what happened two nights ago. And that shit still happens. Absolutely unacceptable. And the reckless closeout that they actually review and the foot still comes down on top of the defender's foot that was an upgrade, absolutely disrespectful. We have a generational talent and a WNBA superstar who had two cheap shots right there that weren't called. And I just say again, absolutely unacceptable. So there was a reckless closeouts as well. And who knows, right? But at the end of the day, like Caitlin took a beating in this game, she's had a back injury for a while. She was really starting to play, like, come into her own offensively as well. She was averaging 23 at nine on efficient shooting splits in the last five games at second quarter against the Mercury is probably the best. She's looked all season and she kind of picked off where she left off in this game too. So it's just like a really unfortunate time for Caitlin who just hasn't been able to catch a break as far as injuries go in the last two years. So hoping she's okay and hoping that the league responds appropriately to this. I want to talk about Paige Becker's who is going off in the clutch right now. And if you listen to this podcast, you know, I love ISO page. I need to get me some more of ISO page. She is just one of the most talented scorers that the league has ever seen. One of the best tough shot makers and I love when she means into that more. And so the funniest thing has been happening in the last two games where, you know, Paige has been kind of passive and I do think that she is one of the most patient players that I've ever seen play basketball, especially for her age. Like she's definitely one to let her teammates get involved. But there does come to a point, especially in his close games where you like, look, we need our closer. And in the last two minutes of the last two games she's played against the sky and the links. She is 24 points in the clutch. I think she has like six uninterrupted buckets against the links. She can freeze off of screens, hitting middies, getting into the post. Like there is just no place where she can't get it going. And her efficiency as an isolation creator is insane. And the reality is that even as her, as a volume goes up a little bit more, the efficiency is still there. There is still so much potential in her offensive game. And I just hope that this is here to stay like she is just awesome. Like she is leading the league in clutch points right now. Or rather, she's top three in the league in clutch points right now. She should be leading the league. And maybe there will be a point where she does. She is number three in the league in fourth quarter points. She's just doing an excellent job of setting the stage and then pouncing. And it's just a joy to watch. Next, I want to talk about another unfortunate injury, Kelsey Plum, after the sparks really got like their best win of the season. We talked about it a lot on Monday's episode. Nekko Gumik had a game winning three. And it felt like maybe it could be a turning point for the sparks. But it turns out that Kelsey Plum is going to miss at least four weeks with a lower leg injury. She spoke to Justin Russo on his, and you can find this on his sub stack about this. Russo writes where she said that what she was dealing with, what she was actually playing through was an accumulation over time of heavy, heavy usage, which just sounds troubling. We know that she's been taking on a huge load. She had one of the best starts this season. She was incredible in isolation. She was driving to the rim all the time. She was leading the league in scoring, but obviously she was was taking on a pretty heavy burden of the offense and eight craters when she's not playing. They're offensive rating without Kelsey Plum is 98, which would be the worst in the league. And they're already without Kim Brink while also being the second worst defense in the league. They are eight and eight. And their next game is against the tempo who are on their heels to try to get to that nine seat and hopefully eventually that eight seat. The sparks have not made the playoffs since 2020. I don't want to put a, I don't, I don't, I don't want to put their seats in the cost of coughing yet, but it doesn't really look good when you have two players that are going to miss. It looks like at least until the all star break and the next six of your of your 10 games are on the road. It's just tough like they really don't play well without those two. And I don't see this road trip really going well either, even though they do have a couple of easy games. And the other thing I want to get into is the man, this is fun. The Dominique Malanga Awafam front court. Look man, like you got teenagers balling out here. So both of these, these players would be freshmen and sophomores in college. Awafam is 19 years old. Dominique Malanga is 20 years old. One is six foot six. The other is six foot seven. There are two unicorns on one team and we're learning something beautiful and terrifying. We are learning, we already knew that Dom was good. We are learning that Awafam is as good as advertised and also that they are compatible. The way that they played against links was incredible. Malanga just attacking these switches, just being so destructive in the paint. 37 points, I believe that's career high for her. While Awafam is on the pop, she's on the high lows. She's hitting, they're both hitting each other on them. They're passing above anybody else in the universe can possibly get to them. And then also Awafam on these pops, just the quickest shot release. She is, this is something I noticed about her, even when she was playing overseas. She has one of the quickest shot releases I've ever seen and now that it's starting to go it is impossible to guard like you have to get there right away. This team when they get a real point guard is gonna be not like a real, you know, respect the teacher had him in what a great game. A real table setting, playing making point guard is gonna be so damn dangerous. Seattle has a very bright future ahead of them. Last but not least, the New York Liberty, had their best win of the season against the Aces. And this is what they can look like when they are fully, almost fully healthy, Satu Sabli did, unfortunately leave that game with an injury, but you're seeing what they are looking like and they're full component as far as what they can do on offense and defense. I have to start with just the difference that the defensive versatility of Benagia Lainey Hamilton brings, she was kind of like the stop gap against any Aces player that was starting to get off, whether it was Asia Wilson, whether it was Jackie Young, they were putting her on step help Talbot and just having her be like a roving helper that could just basically destroy everything that she sees. It was one of the best low box score performances that I've ever seen. She guarded Chelsea, great at different times. She guarded everybody. And it just set the table for everybody else. It allows Stewie to be more of a scorer. She scores 20 points. Leo Fibic was great as a help defender on the closeouts as well. She was awesome. Sabrina Unescu has her first truly healthy game, 16 points, 10 rebounds. She throws some great passes to Pauline Ostier. It seems like their chemistry is starting to build itself up. This Liberty team, we've always, always always known that they could be a jug or not. If they just put it together, put together a defensive performance. Their length was so bothersome to Asia Wilson who had her lowest scoring game of the season. And it was just a full complete performance from a team that has so many weapons when they're actually firing on all the cylinders. They can be terrifying. All right, in our conversation with Cali, we do talk about the commissioner's cup and the ace's side of it as well at around the 50 minute mark. But we get into a lot of really interesting stuff. And that's it for me is solo. So we'll take a break. And that's next. We have a returning guest today, Cali Finn. But so many things have happened, Cali. Since the last time you were on the show, you have a new job at USA Today, where you're no longer covering only the WNBA in the Aces. You are also covering all of women's sports. You're colleagues with some of our favorite side here, like Megan Hall. So really interesting stuff that you guys are cooking up together, you also got married. I'm following you on your stories. You got married. You had a baby boy that you were very eloquently about the medical experiences that you went through. And going through them during the course of the season, I think a lot of people have read that piece. If you haven't read that piece, it's on USA Today. Alongside, a lot of Cali's other work. I was looking at what you're up to. And you're like, covering three don't Williams these days. I'm like, yo, Cali, what is that she's in fun the time? That's a good question. I think I'm getting a little stressed and do lazy eye. Like sometimes I've noticed, like, you know how there's that mean that goes around that's like, you, when you smile, and it looks like you have one eye, that's way bigger than other. That's like my actual real life right now. But I think it's like stress what I just like. So here's the thing, not to invalidate the stress that you're feeling and how it might be showing up. I do feel like everybody feels like that about their own face. And nobody else notices it because I'm looking at you. You look wonderful to me. I appreciate that. I mean to hear that today. Well, hey, hey, anytime, anytime. Yeah. Well, Cali, I wanted to talk to you about a number of things. You'll get into the Las Vegas Aces who just lost what was sort of like the, you know, preview to the commissioners cup game. But before that, I wanted to talk about your experience of your pregnancy through the lens of being a WNBA reporter and all the nuances and all the sort of, the sort of oxymoronic experience that it seemed to be. And I'll start here because one thing about your piece that really stood out to me was, I was just struck by how differently your WNBA peers and colleagues sort of like empowered you throughout your pregnancy versus a way that some of the people, not your actual colleagues that work in journalism, but some of the people that maybe are in the press room with you. Yeah. They kind of like one side sort of empowered you the other side kind of spoke to the biggest, kind of validate of the biggest fears that I think professional women have about pregnancy. So what was that like and what did you learn through that? Yeah, I mean, I learned a lot. I think that one of the biggest things that I guess my pregnancy validated for me is that like the WNBA, although it's still growing and developing and all those things, like it's such an incredible, um, like it's a gathering of women, right? Like and at the end of the day, like that's like the core of the league. And so for me, like it was really empowering, as you mentioned, to be around women who were moms, who were bosses, like moms that had like worked to be back on the quarter, be back to their jobs. I think one thing a lot of people don't understand is like working for a newspaper and only covering the WNBAs, like not common these days. Like I don't really know who has that job anymore. Like my job was covering ACEs, but in addition to that, it was covering UNLB men's and women's called basketball, and then even football to a point. And then also I was covering the NFL, like I was covering the Raiders for like a lot of, like my time towards the end at the review journal. So like, that's a lot, and you are like placed into a lot of different environments and like a lot of different cultures and cultures across all sports are not the same, right? Like the reporters that cover the NFL and things like that are not going to be the same as those who cover the WNBA. And even like we're reporters that cover the WNBA, I'm not guaranteed to like respond or like support you, the way that you might hope. But my experience was like with players and coaches, it was just like an incredible support that like I really needed, like I really, really needed that as I was like, 'cause I worked through the entirety of my pregnancy, like from the moment I found out until I had to be induced, 'cause I had pre-clampsia. So, yeah. - Yeah, well, I mean, when I was reading your piece, I could kind of feel this like through line of fear and worry, going through it before even you found out that you had pre-clampsia, which we will definitely get into, because I think your experience ductiles a lot with a lot of professional athletes, especially black women as far as, well, you know, we can just get into it right now since I'm already talking about it. But, you know, you had an experience of pre-clampsia that other professional women have been through. It's something that Alison Felix went through. Serena Williams went through complications with her pregnancy. Alison Felix, I really stood out to me, because I remember last time we talked, you had actually mentioned her as a hero of one of yours. - Yeah, she might go. - Like she's like my go, like she's like my sports go. So, yeah, so funny that I would end up in like this situation. - Funny, not the same. - It's not funny. - It's not funny. Like I said, that's what I just just drew. - But yeah, I mean, if you can't laugh, like what are you supposed to do? - Right, if you can't laugh, you're going to cry. But I mean, it really was, it was ironic, because I went, I'm obviously such a huge trend to also do this because I remember like, like starting track in high school and then like, right into our college, like I just was like, gosh, she's like, large, she's just incredible. What she is, she's like the most decorated, track and for the Olympian, I think, ever, right? So, like, I'm a huge chance of hers, but then I was also very familiar with her story and think what, stood out to me was her advocacy for working moms with Nike, which I think is why we talked about that at the time, because they tried to, like, lowball her contract after she's done pregnant, even though she was so accomplished, like, there was nobody more accomplished in track and field than her. And they tried to be like, "Well, we'll give you, like, 70% and whatever." So I think that, like, that stood out to me. The pre-clamacy of it all, like, maybe it was just in the back of my mind, but I still was really worried about my health, because of people like her and Serita Williams, like, I, like, had heard about these stories and passing, but I don't really know the details. Like, I just knew pre-clamacy is a big, bad word, and it's like something you should be worried about. Unfortunately, I wasn't familiar enough, like, with what to be looking for. And I guess I don't think I really thought that it would impact me because I was worried about it. So I was like, "Okay, if I just, like, go to my doctors and tell them, like, I'm worried about this, I should be fine," right? But, like, that was not the case. Like, I found myself, like, advocating almost like every appointment. And I kept being, like, dismissed, like, "Oh, you're healthy or young. This is not something to worry about." And then, before I knew it, literally, I was -- the ACEs had won the championship. I wasn't able to travel for the last few games. They went on the road and Phoenix, because you can only travel, like, I think, you have to have, like, 10 weeks left to go or something, like, that to you. I'll let on the plane. And I was well past that. So I couldn't travel, but I was still covering the team. Like, I was -- I was -- they were back for exit interviews. I did those and stuff. So I'm literally covering exit interviews. But before I get ready to cover those, I have, like, a normal routine appointment. And they were like, "Hmm, something's not right here." You've seen, like, very swollen and your blood pressure is elevated. Let's just, like, run a couple more tests. But I remember, like, multiple times, like, leading up to that appointment. I had been like, "I'm really swollen." Like, I don't feel like I haven't had it. And they did not care. Until all of a sudden, it was, like, glaring, like, alarm bells were going off. And they were just like, "We need to have you -- we need to have you induced." And I was, like, 38 weeks. So I have, like, technically, I thought two more weeks to go of my pregnancy. And I was just like, "Oh, okay. That's interesting." Like, so that I go to exit interviews. I'm, like, doing -- exit interviews is if everything is normal, like, getting calls in between each player. Like, we need you in the hospital. Like, you should be in the hospital right now and then all this stuff. But then things just kept happening that were worse and worse. It was, like, one minute, you're in an emergency induction, next minute. Actually, the hospital's full. And maybe your case isn't emergent enough. Maybe you should wait. So we waited for, like, 12 hours, like, at home. But luckily, I have a lot of advocates. And my -- like, I have my aunt. She's like a hospital director. My mother-in-law is a nurse. And, like, also one of my aunts is a nurse. And they came over, like, they live in a different state. And once they've done the updates, they're like, "No, we need to go hospital now." Actually, 12 hours. We went to the emergency room. We were checked in. All that. But it was a really, really, really, really, really crazy experience. That's incredibly stressful. I can't remember what the question was. The question was about Allison Felix. Anyway, the point was, like, it's important to know what the symptoms are because the things I was mentioning, I just was kind of, like, giving observations. Like, I have a little worry about this. Like, yeah, my face is really so long. My ankles are really swollen. I'm having headaches. Like, I remember even, like, it got to the point where, like, my vision was becoming, like, blurry. Like, I was, like, seeing floaters and stuff. And I kind of thought, maybe, who's normal? I don't know. And then I remember when I was finally admitted, like, into the emergency room, going through these tests. And I'm, like, saying the answers. And, like, I'm seeing whoever is doing the test, looking increasingly more and more concerned. And I'm like, oh, this is not good. But I just did not know what, you don't know what you don't know. And so I do think that, like, even that was scared about, like, being in a similar situation, where, like, my health was in danger, because the problem with reclampsia is, like, you can have post-aclampsic seizure, which I had to be on a 24-hour medical drip to a void and all these different things. And it's like, you, I just didn't know any of that. I just knew, like, reclampsia equals bad outcome, potentially, for mom and baby. I just didn't know the details and the nuance of it. And so I think that that was a really, that was a big eye opener for me, because, like, just knowing that something as a problem is not going to be enough to, like, save you from it, if that makes sense. No, absolutely not. Especially if the people that are supposed to be advocating for you that are supposed to be listening to your pain and your needs and what you're trying to tell them are brushing them off and dismissing them. And you talked about this in the article, like, the US having the highest rate of maternal deaths of any high income country, but even within that outcomes for black women being the worst. And I can't help but see a parallel there between how, and I'm wondering if it's changed even how you, your perspective on how you cover women athletes at all, but it's just really hard not to see the parallel there between how we celebrate maternal comeback stories in sports a lot. Like, you know, we, we talk about Serena Williams, like she is super woman. Even though, and Alison Felix too, even though we know that they went through these complications, but we over index on this, like, like, black woman super woman sort of complex that I think society has, while not focusing enough on just inherent vulnerabilities, but also, like, the institutional reasons that those things are happening. And I feel like that, I mean, I'm that happened to you. That's yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think we're, what you're saying is so true. Like, and I mentioned this in the article, but like before I gave birth, I was like, I don't know, maybe six months pregnant, wallowing around in the summer league. I had my son in October. Summer league was wet like July. And we, the, you know, the basketball team had just gotten a new head coach, Josh Pasmer. And he's like, this larger than my personality. But I wanted to do some type of feature on him, like being in town, anyone at the job, like, while summer league was going on. So I went to his office, like, six months pregnant. And he was like, oh, you're like, it was like, this whole thing. And he was just like, who was going to cover the team and all this stuff. And this isn't no, this is back to him. I don't think we mad that I'm telling this story. But I, I remember telling him, like, I will be back. Exactly. Yeah. I, because I had seen it. And like what you're saying is so true. Like, I think it's not just black women. I think it, you see it a lot with black women, but it's just women in general who are in the workforce. Like, there is like this immense pressure to come back and perform. So you can approve that, like, oh, this isn't going to do rail me. And I'm still just as focused as I was. And I can be just as impactful as a mom still and still be, you know, all these things. And so I remember, like, really insights into him, like, no, I'll be back as soon as I can. Like the season starts in November. And also I had seen, like, Wendy LaRocque. She's the head coach of the, you know, the women's basketball team, who is she's an incredible person. Like, she is a superhero. But she did that. Like, she was coaching while pregnant, then like back on the bench, five seconds later, like that whole thing. And so I was like, okay, like if she did it, like, I can do it. All these women that I look up to, and I'm around, like, they do it. Derek, a hamburger did it. So I just, yeah. And so I think what you're saying about how we like praise and elevate those stories, it is, it's just like kind of this double edged sword because absolutely women should be heralded for like this herculean effort to do everything and do it all well. But also, like, maybe that shouldn't be required. You know, like, maybe that's not something that we should be expecting of moms, you know, and right. Well, you're getting all this messaging from all these places that this is the standard. And I imagine the UNLV coach was not trying to make you feel that way. It's just throw away comment that he probably has no idea what that's doing to your psyche on top of the standard that's being set by these women that you're seeing. But at the same time, they are being portrayed and glamorized. And we're not seeing their harder moments either like we're not, we're not seeing the actual humanity of what they're going through. So yeah, you're right. It creates a double edged sword. And it probably makes, like, I imagine it makes you feel like you don't have any other choice. Like, there's there's a fine line, I think, between like, you know, agency and desire and and and coercion. And I don't want to say it's as far as coercion for you. It seems like this is something that you really dedicate and wanting to do. But I do think there are a lot of women who just feel like they have to try to live up to a standard. And it comes at the expense of their health oftentimes as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, 100%. For me, it was like, I want to be back at work because I love my job. I love writing. Like, I love being a reporter and asking people questions and watching games and trying to figure out, you know, the key and within the game and all these different things. Like, I love it. But also, when I was on maternity leave, like, there were moments where I was like, I don't know how I'm ever going to go to work. Like, I have no idea how I can do this. And it was, but it was like, I've very much like a duality of like, also, I need to go back to work tomorrow. Like, it's like, not because I felt like I need to because like I wanted to. Like, it's also being really happy with my son and all these other things. So, yeah, I don't know. Motherhead and working motherhead are just, it's such an interesting experience for sure. There's so so many different risks. I feel like you have to balance. Like, you're worried about career. There's financial aspect of it. There's a health aspect of it. There's so there's so many different things. And you cover people that also go through these things. I'm wondering if that's if it's shifted your perspective at all on how you cover them. Yeah, I mean, but like, I have such an on the nose story, I guess, that can relate to this question. But I remember, like in February, so this is like, awesome. in like dead times, I guess, like for the WBA, um, hearing potentially that Cheyenne partitized who had just been signed to the ACES, this was obviously what like now see even before last, but like, um, that she was pregnant. And I, I remember I think I'm like, oh, that's weird. I didn't say anything about that. No, we said anything about her being pregnant. And I had even spoken to her on the phone to do like a brief story when the ACES announced that they had signed her. Like, she was coming from Atlanta. She was one of their highest paid players for a minute there. She was an all star. So like, I did think it was kind of interesting that she'd come to the ACES and she took a major picket. She don't, like, she signed a training hand contract, which is basically like a one year non-guaranteed minimum, like whatever the applicable minimum is. And so I was like, huh, that's like interesting. I just, I didn't have any information that I'm hearing. Like, oh, she did that because she's pregnant, but that's not. We had not talked about that in the interview that I had with her. She's talking about how she wants to win. She wants to. She has championship all these things. And so I remember thinking like, I need to get to the bottom of this because I'm the big reporter. La, la, la, la, la. And then like a few weeks later, I found out that I myself was pregnant. And then I was like, well, I imagine so much trying to get to the bottom of your pregnancy. Exactly. Exactly. And then I remember I think I was like the exact opposite I had. I was like, I would be so irritated if like somebody was trying to do some like front office sports. I would be like, what? And then, okay, well, we're going to continue. So that exactly is exactly what happened to me. I was like, I would eat that. However, maybe there's a way for us like tell this story together because I have like this unique perspective. Eventually people will find out that she's pregnant. I'm sure like she has a way that she wants to share this information. But like maybe at least I should reach out, you know, and I didn't have her phone number. I'm writing a reach out to her agent. Her agent was like, I can't say anything. I don't even know what to do. But you know, exactly. So I was just like, okay. So then I, but he was like, I can give you her what's up. So I gave me the what's up. I reached out to her and I started the conversation by being like, I'm going to, you don't know me. We spoke in one time for a story that I did not end up writing because my bosses were like, if she's pregnant, we can't write a story about her wanting to come to the ACEs on a league minimum because she wants to win a championship. Like you, that's not, you don't longer. Right. So, um, but I was like, we've only spoken one time. You do not know me. I'm going to tell you something personal about me. And then I'm going to ask you something personal about you. And if you don't feel comfortable telling me that's okay. This is like almost exactly what I said to her on the phone. And she was like, okay. And I was like, I'm pregnant. I just found out that I'm pregnant. Like, and I told her like, I'm early ish career and all these different things. Like I just word vomited to her like my own personal business. And I was like, all that to say. And I feel weird even asking you this or like, mentioning this to you that I heard, maybe you might be pregnant. Like question mark. Is that true? Who is that something that you feel comfortable talking about? Like, please stop me if you don't feel comfortable. And she was like, no, I actually, I love that you are pregnant and like wanting, like, and approaching me in this way. Like, so then we're like talking about me. We're talking about her. And eventually we're just like, well, let's just like announce like her pregnancy through an article like that. And that's what we did. I wrote an article in the newspaper of the Las Vegas Review Journal. She told me all about her experience playing overseas and like why she hid it and all these different things. And like, the stigma around being pregnant as a mom and how people will be like, oh, why don't you just, oh, it was just, it was, I really enjoyed the process of writing that story. And then that was what we did. And it was really great. And then throughout my pregnancy and all these different things, I was able to tell CPT about what I had going on. And she genuinely actually, like, she cared. I was really appreciated. But even during my pregnancy, like as I'm still covering the team, throughout their championship season, I was asked to do like a mid-game interview. And like, I'm not mentioned that I'm pregnant. Everybody who sees me knows that I'm pregnant, but I'm not like posting that on social media. Because I'm, I'm like, this is actually matter to the scope of my coverage. Like, I'm not an athlete to where people need to know that, like, I would say it's advancing your coverage of anything. Right. But I'm thinking like, it's, nobody, I don't need to make like some big announcement. It's really not a big deal. Like, it's, I'm not the story. I'm just a journalist on the sidelines, right? And then I just do in this interview, the person, and this is like a live, like, locally broadcast, like radio interview. So I know, like, people are listening this half time. And the, um, the radio person starts the interview by being like, so what do you do? And I remember me, I literally like burst out laughing in the interview with like the heads and on my head. And I was like, I'm not talking about that. Like, are you crazy? Like, I think that's exactly what I said. Like, and then it was just really awkward. And afterward, they're like, I'm so sorry. And I was like, no, it's fine. I just, I don't really think, I haven't even put, like, I have not announced that I was pregnant. I didn't, I was, because in the, as I wrote about the article, I was like nervous about it personally. I felt like professionally, people might judge or all the stuff because I had dealt with that, like, from colleagues and stuff. And so I was just like, I don't want to, I don't want to make a big thing of this. I just want to do my job. I just want to do my job while being pregnant. And then my, my support, I felt like had gotten blown up. It didn't really matter. Like, not enough people, I guess, were listening to that for it to be a big thing. But I remember just feeling like, what the, what the heck? Like, why is that? But it's like, I experienced probably exactly what CBT felt like in that moment or probably what athletes have felt like for years, when it's like their pregnancy becomes like a talking point. You know what I mean? Like, when they're just trying to do their job is really that my long-winded way to get to that point, it's like, I've been to the day, like working moms are still just people who are trying to do their jobs, you know? And like also live their lives and all these different things. And so it just becomes like this really unique thing to navigate. And as you mentioned, like nobody who I interacted with throughout my pregnancy and like while navigating the difficulties of it was like intentionally trying to like hurt me or hurt my feelings or like make my life more difficult. Like of course not. It's just like such an interesting situation to be in, I think. And so I felt like I really had to confront that a lot while I was pregnant. I feel like, well, I feel like I've seen this with my friends where I think women who are pregnant, they go through this struggle with their bodily autonomy. In the sense of, hey, there is a baby growing inside of you. So that's number one bigger than anything. But then I think sometimes people around them start treating them differently. They start treating them. They kind of take away their autonomy, whether it's by, you know, making suggestions that don't need to be heard or being overly paternalistic or, you know, touching and things like that that are just like not really welcomed. At the same time like you and also these professional athletes, you are navigating that while also having to deal with being a public figure. So any nexus of control you have, which frankly you just don't have much in the first place, like you kind of are in this dance with visibility, waiting to see like how long can I kind of keep this to myself and control it until I start showing on top of that. Like you're on camera. Yeah. It's just, I mean, it just seems, it just seems like a mind bug, honestly. Yeah. No, I don't, I don't even know. I mean, I feel like for me, it was great because I was like, I'm just a newspaper writer. Like I'm just typing my words and like sending them into the abyss. Like nobody has to see me every day. I can't imagine what it's like for people who are like on camera or they are like just consistently in the public eye. Like that just really wasn't my experience. So I think that's why it made it even more difficult for me to be like, why are we talking about this? Yeah. But yeah, I mean, obviously now I talk about anything. I think one thing too with this crazy about pregnancy, like you mentioned, like you're, you're Tommy, you struggle with it a lot. Like during your pregnancy, like I remember I was weird about people touching me and stuff. I would get so like annoyed in my mind. But then it's like you have that baby and everybody's touching you and seeing stuff that you hope they would never see. And you like, and then all this stuff and stuff. And now it's like, we can talk, I mean, there is nothing that you could bring up on this call right now that would make me flinch because I'm like, I feel that. I feel like what I mean, now you're like, I'll talk about this forever. Yeah, I mean, because why not? Yeah, I guess you got to let go. Hey, at a certain point. Yeah, it probably makes for, you know, an easier day to day life too. So I'm God that you've been able to get to that point. What was, tell me a little bit about what it was like just like interfacing with different members of the ACEs throughout this process. It was amazing. I mean, everybody was super super super super. Okay, I don't know if supportive is the word because what they tried to do and I am pretty appreciated was they just try to act like they didn't know like Asia. I mean, I have like a running joke with her will like sometimes like a lot of times I'm the only person at practice, but sometimes it'll be like one other person there or time like there. I was the only one impressed a lot. And then I'd be like one other person there and I would try not to ask for Asia every single day because I knew like she gets requested a lot. So like And there was a day that it wasn't just me. There's one other person and like she gets requested. She'll be like, oh, you know, like I'm not trying to do this. I want to go home and I'd be like, I didn't request you. You know, like, so we have like this running thing. We're like, I'm seeing her almost like every day. And it's one way or another. Even if I didn't ask for her, like she's, and we're like talking. She was like, she just like, I don't know. But she, and she just read, I'm like, she did not know I was pregnant until I'm back. - And Becky tried to do the same thing. - In fact, she possibly did. - Yeah, like, and like, Becky tried to do the same thing. Like, which is so funny because obviously, Becky has had her like experience with like navigating pregnancies properly. Like, so she probably was trying to be extra careful. I'm sure. But like, she literally, I don't know she did it on purpose, but I wrote about this story one day. She was just like, oh, my back hurt so bad. And like, she made like a big show of it after like a media scrum and I was like, and I'm like huge at this point. - No, just not the one time pregnant person just looks directly at you. - Literally, I was like, oh, mine too. And then she looked, and then she looked at me and she was like, you're pregnant. And I was like, yes, yes, I'm pregnant, but like you were just not talking about this. But then for like the next three months or whatever, we had so much fun talking about like motherhood and like that whole journey and stuff like that. And like, I don't know, like Chelsea Gray is a mom. Chelsea was really open with me. Like I wrote a story on Mother's Day about like motherhood because I thought like Chelsea was a great example of like what that can look like, you know, even though obviously different paths and whatever. Like she's still a mom, you know? And so I remember writing that story and she was like pretty open with me. And I don't know. I think everybody was great. Shyam prioritized, like I mentioned, cared so much. She didn't text me after I gave birth and told me to give myself grace. And I remember in the finals, she was like showing me positions to try to use in labor. And I used them. And they held for real, so I'm not joking. And I remember people were, it was like out of practice. People were like, what are you guys doing? Like I'm like following her. She's like squat down, do this, do this. And I'm like doing it. I'm like, the court. And people were looking over like this is basketball practice. But it was like at the end of a practice or whatever. But yeah, so I had a really great experience. Like even Asia's parents, and like her mom, Eva, for dad, Roscoe, every time I'd walk past them, they would make comments and like speak life into my baby. They'd be like, this is gonna be such a good baby because you're at every single game. And you're doing all these different things and he's soaking it all. Like they would just say all these positive things. Like, and Asia's mom would like give me advice about how to approach parenting. Like what to think about, like all these different things. And what's also very encouraging, just like you can do it because I would be like, I don't really know what this is going to look like. You know, and she would just sit there and be like, you can do it, like you're going to do it. And it's going to be great. And like this is why and all this stuff. So I had a really great experience. Like I'll never ever ever forget it. Like I'm so grateful for every single person that to times like trying to make me feel better about like the unknowns. I didn't know what I was getting to my first time mom. I'm 27 years old or 28 now. But at the time, like 27 and trying to figure out what the heck it's going to look like. Yeah, well, I mean, I also, I just love the way that, and obviously like, you know, women's basketball is not perfect, but I do love the way that I think, just like the environment and the culture around women's basketball. Like I think they just allow you to show up as a whole person more than a lot of workplaces do. There's just that sort of, you can drop your shoulders a little bit. I've even had this experience going to games where there are just so many things where if I was going into like a male-dominated workplace, I would be worried about that I simply do not with women's basketball at all. And I feel like honestly just has like a, like all those micros, like things have a downstream impact on like your ability to do your job and your ability, honestly, like to connect with people, which is, I mean, that's ultimately like what your job is. So shout out to women's basketball, honestly. Like I feel like it's genuinely like change my brain chemistry being in this universe for the last few years, like truly. Yeah, I mean, I love that. I feel like, I don't know. I've been around women's basketball forever. It feels like like I was a young girl in Sacramento where the monarchs were playing and stuff and I played in high school. And I mean, yeah, women's basketball is just like its own world. Like it's its own, like, you know, and I mean, it's not perfect by any means. I mean, I had experiences like as we all, like nothing is perfect, you know what I mean? Like you will deal with people who like, like somebody who don't care that you're pregnant and they want you to like, you know, be a superhero, whatever, and like, there are so many things that like come with this job that make it like difficult to be pregnant and be a mom, right? Like part, I think part of what's inherent about being a reporter especially is that like your time really doesn't matter, right? It's like the athletes and the coaches, like their time as well as the teams. And yours kind of like, supposed to kind of roll with that. And like as a pregnant woman, like sometimes that was really tough. Like waiting, like, you know, a super long time to get into practice and coming early and then it like being, it's all these different things. Like you just never know or like, you know, showing up for an interview and then they're being like, whatever, like all these different things people are stressed and not maybe communicating the best. Like those are things that you just gotta have to do with no matter what, you know, like some people don't care about, you know, the fact that you're in a unique place. I'm like, that's gonna be any, that would be any career, you know? Like I'm like, even the insensitive comments are people who are people ultimately. Exactly, yeah. Like it doesn't matter if it's a woman's basketball or not. Like I wouldn't like romantic sides this way. But yeah, it is like, it is, it still is. I was always looking forward to covering the NBA practices in games much more than I was covering, you know, men's basketball or, you know, coach football or, you know, Raiders, like I was, I'm not trying to be waddling around, like, yeah, and not environments, like that's definitely not the preference. So yeah, I feel you 100%. Yeah. Well, one of the things that struck me is that this organization that was incredibly kind to you also had its own controversy with the player's pregnancy a few years ago in Deerika Hamby who felt that she was traded because she was pregnant. And, you know, in a lawsuit actually said that that's pretty much what Becky Hammond said that lawsuit has since been drawn up, but the ACE is after a WNBA investigation. Becky Hammond was suspended two games and the team lost its first round draft pick. So I don't know, I guess I'm wondering, like, how do you kind of reconcile those two realities? Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I think what I would, what I would emphasize is that, like, exactly what I said about like no environment being perfect is so true, ultimately, like, work. And like, like, this is like, this is work. This is a corporate, like, this is business. And people are trying to like navigate that regardless of whether or not they're also moms or also women. Like, I mentioned that Becky Hammond is a mom and a woman and all of these things. And that was really great to be around. Like, that doesn't mean that she's going to be a perfect person or that, you know. And so I think that there is like a really interesting dichotomy there. I mean, I remember even asking Cheyenne Percotias, like, in our conversation, revealing about her pregnancy and stuff, I'm like, aren't you close with Deerica Hamby? Like, why would you want to play for this team in this same position? Like, you know, like, I remember we're kind of asking her that maybe in different words. And she was just like, well, I am close with Deerica. Her experience is an important experience. But it's also like her experience. And like, we all have to have her own experience. And that really, like, unfortunately, that's the truth. You know, I think, I'm like, I've spoken to Deerica since-- I mean, I remember I spoke to her at Yom's words when she was in the midst of it all. Like, before there was ever even a lawsuit. And like, having to navigate that. Like, I remember feeling so much empathy for her. And I even understanding like what-- I remember thinking I was having a lot of empathy for her. Then I got pregnant and worked. And I had like such a deeper understanding of what she dealt with. And I don't know. Like, I feel like if you've not been pregnant, like, you probably can-- like, that was-- I-- she is a super hero. For going through that experience, like, full stop. And I also think that like what has happened since with the new collective bargaining agreement. And this, like, I've been calling Deerica and be a rule-- something called Deerica. So many from her team reach out to me. They're like, you do know that's like not-- it's not the official name. I was like, no, I know that. I just-- I feel like, clearly this is obviously-- this is because of her. And so she and I talked about it. And I wrote a story about it for the review journal. Once the new CBA dropped. And those like, key, like, turns were released. And I was like, oh, this is about you, girl. And so then we got on the phone. And she-- I was like, do you like-- how do you feel about this? Like, what do you feel? And she was really honest just about like feeling, like, really having to like sit in that. Like, yeah, like, I had an experience. And it will impact the future. And I think ultimately, that is a positive. You know, like, she told me that she felt really proud about, you know, like having that legacy, you know, even though it's not officially called the Deerica hand rule and all that stuff. But so, yeah, I mean, I think that that change, like, it's important. So her experience. experience, even though it sucked and was terrible, it will change things for the next person. I mean, I hope that like my ex, and I mean, you could argue with change things for Cheyenne. Like, it allowed for Cheyenne to come, um, beyond the ACEs and, and have a return mid year and all this stuff and, and for her to be able to say like, it's not because they're forcing me because I want to and all of that stuff matters. Like, especially for people to like, who follow the sport to be able to look at and, and like, see these developments, like, unfortunately, and I guess this is the dichotomy I'm trying to get to, like, there has to be hardship sometimes and difficulty and trauma for progress. And I feel like maybe I'm an example of that in my own way for like, the experience that I had as a working mom trying to do journalism and deal with, you know, colleagues who didn't think that that was like smart or realistic or whatever. And then also like, my experience was pretty clumsy, like, having to kind of learn the hard way. Like, hopefully somebody else will not have to and hopefully the doctors that dismissed me will like, by the end, we're like, oh, maybe we should pay more attention. Like, that's all you could really hope is like, if you go through something difficult, that there was like progress from it. I feel that was a really long-winded answer about how I like to tell that, but yeah, we got there. No, it's a great answer. I think you're so right. And, you know, I'm glad to hear that she's proud. Like from now on, nobody will be able to get traded well pregnant without being able to give their own consent. Yeah. That's incredible. That's huge. And it's also just like one of those policy things that needed to change because otherwise so much falls on interpersonal connections, especially I think around stuff like this. And the WNBA has improved a lot of its policies around pregnant players. So this is just, it's just part of it. It's just part of it. So, no, I think that's honestly like a truly like a wise and inspiring answer. There is no Queensland way from this. Actually, you know what? I'm going to ask you one more question about about this. Like so. Yeah. Yeah. But what did you learn about Abby's experience or understand about her experience that you didn't before you went through it yourself? Yeah. I mean, this is going to sound really insensitive and I like wonder if I should even say this publicly. But I do think that somewhere in the back of my mind, like even with all the empathy that I felt when I was covering her situation as like I was like a little baby fresh out of a college covering her situation at Yahoo Sports, like I really, I'm telling you I felt for her deeply. I'm like, man, that's going to be so hard. You've got to pick up your life, your pregnant and you want to championship with the seam and all this different stuff. And you play it while you're pregnant. You sacrifice and then you get traded because you're pregnant again, like these are the people that like, it's like I felt for her, you know, like I thought I did, but part of me in the back of my mind was like, well, maybe like, you know, you know, question. I do, I do think that that's like, I do think that that in my mind, I kind of thought that like, but I would have never have said that out loud, but I do think that's what a lot of fans do say publicly, but they'll be like, you know, I mean, I saw it with the way that he responds to my reporting about a Cheyenne and like, when I was like, Oh, like, you know, she's going to aim to come back by the playoffs and they're like, well, we need her now and all this stuff. And then people are like, she's a pro basketball player like, why does she do this now? And so I do think maybe part of that is like a natural inclination to wonder the reality though is like, that is such a dumb thing to think. And I hope people will understand that like you have no, no idea, like, I don't really know what the right words are to like convey this properly, but like, you could, you could be a perfect planner and you can be perfectly responsible and you can do all these different things. And sometimes, I don't know, things don't go according to plan. That's how biology or pregnancy works as much as you want to try to control it. And even like, I mean, I can defer to, to try and prioritize on this because she's having to be on the record. Like, she was on birth control. Her birth control was messing with, it's in the story, so I'm not like breaking news here. She, the birth control she felt like was like causing her way to fluctuate as she's playing basketball overseas in China. So her doctor recommended a new birth control. She's, as she's switching birth controls, she's a married woman, all these different things. She's thinking she's fine or whatever and that's, she wasn't. So then that's okay. But imagine like, or even if she didn't plan it, like women have the right to do whatever they want to do. And in China's case, that was, that was just, it was just an unexpected thing. And so she rolled with that and embraced it as she's a beautiful son, right? But like, you have no idea what is going on in people's eyes and you have no entitlement to know that. I do think, or to even think about it, you know, like, and I, I don't know. And so I think that that's one thing, but even just like, so that was, that was one of the things I think I learned and how that could deeper understanding and empathy for. But then also it's just like, you think that things are, are difficult, like for you and your normal day to day. And then it's like, imagine going through something that is hard while your hormones are fluctuating and your body is changing and you're like struggling to, like, just be your normal self. Like I, I really, really, I struggled every single day. Like I'm like, I had terrible morning sickness throughout the entire day, my first trimester, like could not keep food down, like was just so nauseous, like, smelling things was like difficult for me. And then it's like, you're emotional on all these different things, but it's like, you have things to do. And ultimately, like the world doesn't stop for you being pregnant. And like there are, there are ways that like you hope you'll be supported and you hope that people will understand you and all these different things. And like when those expectations are not met, it's so hard. It's so difficult and a way that like I could not have understood until I went through it myself. And when I went through it myself, I was just like, oh my gosh, I cannot imagine going through this on a larger scale as a product MBA player who is in the public eye, like that just seems really, really difficult. Yeah. First of all, thanks for just being honest about that. A lot of couple wrinkles to that. When you talk about the contraceptives, there's so many complications that come with contraceptive use. Especially if you are a professional athlete, like you can look at the story of Dera Mabry, Marina Mabry, sister who had an ECL tear and blood clots while taking birth control that could have been life threatening to her. That's definitely a story to check out. Dovetailing with the fact that we don't have enough research on women's health outcomes in the professional space when it comes to anything, comes to periods, comes to pregnant. Like there are so many things that we do not know. So we absolutely have to defer to the women who are actually going through it themselves and trust their bodies. But to your other point, like I just feel like that's so fucking real because this could even go back to a Becky Hammond or any woman who has pushed another woman to come back from a situation where they were pregnant because we get so much messaging about things like this that we need to grid our teeth and we need to get over it. So we're obviously going to go and project that onto other people, especially in the professional athlete space, where that type of mentality is just like, that's the culture. That is the religion of professional sports. It's got through any injury, especially in women's basketball that's had this sort of like sense of, like it's always been under this existential threat that's put pressure on athletes to play. So it's like, yeah, like we all tried it. Like this goes for all forms of internalism and so on. I feel like we are like part of this generation that is just constantly trying to unlearn all of these things that we were taught and they are going to jive against each other. Like that's just, it's not reality to take like things that you learn and just assume that you're always going to like be thinking with like, you're better in your higher mind and always be like the most empathetic because like, we're not that way with ourselves. Yeah. Like you weren't like, you weren't really that way with yourself until you hit the fan, right? That's not to, like I would probably do the same thing, like so many of us would. Yeah. Okay, one thing I want to know because I do feel like I can sense that you're about to pivot segue. But I know you mentioned the lawsuit between handi and the ACEs was dropped. I don't know. I don't think that that's accurate. And I haven't seen like a lot of reporting about this. Not that it's, it's done, but, and I, they both teams or both parties were are bound to confidentiality. But my understanding is, is not that the lawsuit was dropped. It's that they came to terms outside the courtroom because what they were dealing with was like a jury trial. And that's what was about to come up and I don't think that either side wanted to deal with that. So I don't know if they probably came out and said that they had like settled, but ultimately like there were, like those parties came to terms, whatever those terms were, those are not public and will not be public. But yeah, I think that I made it like important to make that just like, no, thank you, that it was not dropped. But yeah, I mean, I was just going back and like kind of reading this story as you were talking that like the most recent one was Derricka about the unofficial Derricka a heavy rule. And like some of these quotes that she gave me, like she was saying that she she lost her community at the staff of a finger. People that she considered her best friends just gone like that. And then she said that she had it also she had to read everything that was happening online as it was happening. Like people maybe seeing she was lying about what Becky Hammond had said and all these different things. And she's like saying that she had to see and read those things. Like she had to really break herself down and build herself back up. But that the one thing that was the throughline to her entire experience was her and her like legal team and all that being just being like this can never happen again full stop. And that's why she feels so happy now that there's been a solution. And there is a safeguard in place like you won't have to worry about a player being traded with other consent. I mean I still kind of wonder though like what and she even also in this story said that like it was unfair to everybody. And that I think is interesting because like maybe she's alluding those almost unfair so that he's in some ways because the the structure of like the CBA wasn't really conducive to like maybe navigating that situation properly. Like maybe that's like it seems like she has like some even like grace and empathy for like their side you know which I think is really interesting. And I think that's something that you gain when you go through something hard and you come out through the other end of it. And she mentioned like she's that's what she did like she built herself back up and she ultimately she found her purpose from it from it she has a nonprofit called Deer Marie here based in Las Vegas that's of course like a lot of different types of moms in different situations. And so I don't know I just wanted to like add those things as we put a pin on that conversation. Yeah absolutely I appreciate you you bring in the accuracy. I wonder so can you use a heart like I think with like Iliana Repair who is pregnant um placed for the Valkyries the week or the Valkyries filed a hardship or replacement contract for her like maybe there should also just be some sort of pregnancy clause that impacts the cap in and of itself. So they mean even in the future somebody like Cheyenne Parker ties maybe you don't have to sign like a I don't know that probably gets into tricky territory about like about paid discrimination as well. I'm not a lawyer. I'm going to shut up. Right. I can't hear you myself talking. I'm like you know what girl stop stop while you're just a little behind actually. I do think maybe when you're alluding to is like there should be I think probably more clarity around like the options and it doesn't matter now. There's a new CBA so and we don't I have this whole 300 page document. I'm still kind of like trying to see like how things have changed I guess and and that regard but like I remember there were times like even with Cheyenne and like the injured players where I would ask Nicky like have come because I don't have like another like you guys can't sign somebody else while she's out because they they did have her on like a hardship thing and her contract was not impacting the cap while she was out and like I don't know if there was a ton of clarity or understanding about like what the options were you know like it was very much like we just want to like abide by the rules and like we want you know and so I don't know maybe more clarity but maybe they're the news and I'm like not a problem yeah anymore like who knows yeah all right watch this watch this speaking of Cheyenne Parker Tias one of the few bright spots in the aces lost to the liberty on Tuesday um in what was a preview of the commissioner's cup which is happening this coming Tuesday mm-hmm that was good. I'm gonna cut myself on the back. Style points? I can do this. Thank you. Thank you. I like it. Yeah well I did want to talk about about the game the aces obviously look they're coming off the championship they are off to a pretty excellent start to this season but there are some cracks in the armor like they're they they aren't this completely invulnerable um dynasty uh well they are a dynasty but they're not completely invulnerable um they've had some issues with their defense they've had some issues with their depth uh Asia Wilson had the lowest scoring game per season and also had the lowest game field goal percent of per season as well yes 16 points sub 40 percent shooting from the field um they doubled here for most of the night and the aces shot 29 percent from three that's kind of like that's that's a formula for beating them um we know this uh but I'm just curious what you'd say what what your thoughts are were on that game and uh just you're kind of broader thoughts on the aces seasons thus far yeah I mean I think ultimately and I hope this isn't so like too harsh because I'm not a coach and Becky Hammond's got a great what do you call it before or whatever you yeah like she's she's got a great pulpit too she's got the pulpit she's on the pulpit like she knows what she's yeah yeah so I mean this is like with all respect to her I just do feel like in my time covering this team maybe the approach to matching up with the liberty has not changed much it feels like to me it feels like the aces kind of come out the same way against the liberty every single time and it doesn't tend to go well you know so I I mean I don't know what their record is against the liberty over the last even like two seasons but I know it's I don't I wouldn't I would put five dollars on the fact that's not a like winning record right I don't think it's probably fact check me on that um so I think that that's something that really stands out to me and it's like one it's like something that I'm a little bit perplexed by because I do um I don't know I kind of a lot Becky in my mind is somebody who can make adjustments and like I feel like I've seen her do that and so I'm just I kind of confused as me that maybe I haven't seen that as well against the liberty um but also I guess that result is a credit to the Liberty's resilience I mean they have really been through the ranger I think in terms of like on the ranger wb show in terms of like injuries and and dealing with that and like you know now they've got Sabrina back and all these like they're just they're going through it and they they have shown that like through ups and downs they're they're still not a team to be counted out like there were times this season like one when they lost to um Portland I was like this isn't a good team but clearly that's not the case like the Liberty are a strong team they find themselves back in the um commissioners cup final and we know historically teams that make us to the commissioners cup they go to the WBA finals like that's the way that it's been for I think like for like what is it like four of the last five matchups I think it is like yeah the fever missing last year um but true yeah you had liberty you had I think the links um then you had I think the liberty get the liberty love winning the commissioners cup by the way just love it yeah and so I do think that you know like they they are on track to have another really really strong season even that I think that like this game was um proof of that so I don't know personally for me like this liberty aces matchup and I mentioned this to Brandon store um at the shoot around like before that game like to me this matchup was like to find the WBA for the last like five years like you know what I mean like even though like there's an all this other stuff and obviously there's the the fever of it all and they have like in the book of the last five years the WBA like they would be the huge chapter of it but I just feel like liberty versus aces has truly like fed families and so I'm excited to see this like I I don't think that this matchup on June 30th and in New York will look the same way that it did um the other day but I mean again you never know I would I just some I'm trusting I guess Becky's pen to adjust and I do think that like I guess basses play better when the stakes are higher that's been like my catchphrase about them they absolutely do they suck when there's nothing on the line uh yeah and that's fine that's not a bad thing um but the thing that you're getting at is really that I think the liberty have a height advantage at just about every position almost yeah against the aces and they have for most of this the history of this matchup and what it's generally meant it's meant like Leo Fibbage Serena Unescu Benageleni Hamilton just getting these post mismatches against the aces guards um this game you didn't see that as much I feel like a lot of it was a liberty's three point shooting the aces are not a good three point defense and they're also just overall not a great defensive team this year which you's never like to see for a team that's trying to win a championship and it brings me to a question that I never thought I would ask but do you think that they maybe miss Kia Stokes or a Kia Stokes like figure so yeah I don't know this is a team that like to struggle defensively one week and then be really really good defensively another week and I used to think maybe it's like do they understand the scheme and like I don't think that's a problem anymore I think that it's like really an effort thing sometimes but like the matchups and the height advantage that is something that it feels like it's just gonna be a difficult hurdle you know and I I do think that like that he does really love like a small lineup and so this matchup kind of forces her to to not go in that direction so yeah I don't know I think that's like a really interesting thing and that's a chico to you for putting it into actually like eloquent words better than me just being like oh this matchup is showing me that it's not adjusting well and all the stuff I'll shout it to you well hey if they shot better. Maybe we wouldn't be. We'd be talking about Becky's awesome offensive adjustment, right? Like they just didn't really shoot well. The Liberty had a great night. The other thing that stood out was that the Liberty were actually using their height on the defensive end to really bother Asia Wilson as well. Like whether it was John Quill Jones or Benagia Lady Hamilton, it was probably the best defense I've seen anybody play on her this season. And like the thing with Asia is like there was also, anytime there's a bad Asia game, there's also just like shots that she misses that she's gonna make any other time. So I'm sure that I'm actually really excited for this game on Tuesday now because A, there are stakes. It's a, you know, there's $500,000 at stake. They just lost to this team. Asia had her worst game of the season. And with the ACEs, it's always an effort thing. Like I feel like that's why it's super hard to even judge them yet. Because like if we just, if Chelsea grades just decides she doesn't want to get dusted by Leonie Phoebe, but she won't like when she's, when she wants to be, she's a really good defender, but you also understand why at her age, she might not want to do that for 44 games in a row and maybe save that for the playoff. So it's like, and, and, and after that, you know, yet they have really good defenders. Like Jackie Young's a great defender, Steph Talbot, gives up a lot on offense, great defender. Asia, Melissa Smith has become a great defender. Like, yeah, she's not the whole thing too. Melissa Smith's development. My gosh, she's like one of my favorite players to watch this season. Just one of my favorite stories, honestly, like she's like epically strong. And during training camp, she told me that was like a huge emphasis for her. Like, she came out of last season and said that she wanted to be a better shape. She did kickboxing, a bunch of cardio, all this different stuff, and lost weight. Like she gave me a number. I don't remember the number. I tried not to focus on women's weight, but like she, it was like, I wasn't when she said it, I was like, man, that's like, that's a lot. And I, I feel like you can see it. She like, she looks like lighter on her feet to me. So, I don't know, I've been really impressed by like her development. The other thing that's so impressive with her is that she's calling things out on defense. Like she knows the coverage of the scheme. She's yelling at other people about where to be. And she's been on this team now for like, not even an actual full calendar year. And this was not a player that I would have ever thought. You know, like I think for a long time with her, it was like, okay, she's gonna take away on defense, but she's such a monster in the post that it's okay. You just live with it. Now she's able to do that on both ends. And like, honestly, like, this guy's a limit for her because it's so funny with the Aces. Like, they're simultaneously a team where like, there are nights where they just won't show up. They're also a team where you look at them. And you're like, okay, like you don't actually have five All Stars in your team, but there are nights where you kind of do. And it's just, it's a sickening amount of talent to have honestly. So also, shout out to Melissa Smith. This is how you win the break up. - I just feel like they'd be like a good capper to this podcast. (laughing) - Man, that was good. More style points for you. - Thank you. - Thank you. I appreciate it. I will know that you don't have a comment or something. - Oh, no order, no wait. - We did not talk about parasociality and that was a really good segue. Can we hit it real quick? - Yeah, absolutely. - Okay, yeah, absolutely. Yes, I'm more worried about your time than I am mine, but yeah, you're right. You can hear my childhood crying in the other room, but if it's an emergency, it's that we're brave and so, we'll, yeah, we'll-- - Dad's got this. - Shake and bake it. - Okay. - Yeah, but I do think we should talk to that 'cause that was a perfect segue. Accidentally, I think that you just made it. - It was definitely accidental. - Well, you wrote this story on Asia Wilson and her peer to social stands, but like, I'll give you the floor, you talk about it. - Yeah, I mean, I think it really stood out to me like covering Asia Wilson day in and day out. I do deal with like her stands and my vengeance on social media quite frequently. And so, this idea of Asia's like personal life being thrust into the forefront in a way that maybe she's not comfortable with is something that I think about regularly, but I kind of wondered if she thinks about it or how she thinks about it. I remember when I was on maternity leave, that whole Rachel Nichols clip went kind of viral where she was interviewing SGA, and then she was kind of like referencing an internet meme about what was it, Sam Presti, like who, like she was like, would Sam Presti like be in your baby? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Why, like be dropping Asia and Bams, baby. And it was just like, whoa, like what in the world? You know, like where does that come from? And this noticed like to Rachel Nichols sent, I mean, she was referencing something that was very like, pop is open on internet at the time, which was supposed to be, I guess, a credit to Sam Presti as a talent scout, right? Like it's a joke and it's, but it's like weird. And so that was kind of like the jumping off point for me, but then there was just like, there was so much more because then Asia went and spoke about, and like a cover story about how she's like ready to be, like dive into being a wife and a mom, whenever her journey was best of all's over. And so I saw people reacting to that and be like, oh my gosh, we can't have another Maya Moore, like she's gonna give it all up for her man and all this, what? And I was like, oh my God. What a weird response, like this story into this like vulnerability. And so yeah, I just like asked her about it one day and she was really, I know I'm surprising, to for me to say surprisingly candid would be stupid 'cause she's best just who she is, she's very candid person. But like I think I was still even a little bit shocked that like how much she had to say about how this affects her. And you can kind of see that in the way that she like moves in her relationship with them. Like she was not posting on social media about him. She still doesn't, to this day, she'll blur him from photos I think because she wants to like, there's like this idea of protecting your peace and like your privacy. But like she just mentioned that it's like why, like why is there this idea that I can't do both? And like also why is anybody's business? Like why is anybody's business if I do, you know, if I do have a baby and like the talent of that baby, like why do people feel comfortable talking about those things? And so I thought it was really interesting that like, she thinks about it. And like it alters like how she moves, right? Like if she is, so I don't know. I thought that was really interesting. Ultimately, parasolishality is like this concept that you see so much. And I don't really like it when people try to say that like, W and B fans are more parasolish than other fans 'cause I don't think that's true. I think that you see it a lot in the W and B 'cause W and B players are like, maybe they feel more accessible. I think to some of these stands, and so it's just like displayed more. Ultimately this is a problem in like all leagues and all sports. But like you see it everywhere, you see you, you know, you, I don't know if this will be in the final edit, but like you would joke about, you know, breakups or whatever. Like those things don't ultimately matter. And I guess I was just like rip the bandit off and like say, 'cause in the off season, there was all this conversation about Melissa Smith and Jackie Young and Dijon A. Carrington. And it was like, how are the ACEs gonna manage? How was the locker room gonna survive this? And it's like, 'cause they're grown-ups and they're at work. And so, and that's what you've seen. You've seen Melissa Smith and Jackie Young have any problems on the court? Like, no, you know what I mean? And so much of like what Melissa Smith has been able to do, is a credit to that. Like she has fully embraced like the team, the, like everything about like where she is and all these different things. Like, that's not a problem. And so I do think that like, it's this really interesting thing. Like I remember early in killing Clark's career, didn't she have a stalker? And then race more, just most race now. - Yeah, so be kind of a stalker. There was a page backer of stalker, whether or not, like this is- - Yes, yes there was, yeah. - Yeah, and so it's like people really blur the lines between like these players and like who they are. And we just spoke about like how important it is for like the stories of players and things like that to make a difference. And like, I mentioned that like, obviously seeing Derek and Hamby and seeing Cheyenne, Parker Ties. And like, I don't know, learning from them and are being inspired by us and feelings or being inspired by serenoliums, but ultimately like, I was inspired by things that they shared willingly, right? And I think that like that's really, really important lines to be honest enough, like just because you're a public figure, it doesn't mean that everybody's entitled to like very intimate things about your life or like your agency and all those things. - I think we live in an environment where if you give people an inch of your private life, they take that as you've given up any right to autonomy or privacy ever. And A, that's just not true. But I also, well, I do wanna say, I'm gonna push back against a little bit against the idea that being parasocial and also being like very troublingly parasocial, not even parasocial what we're talking about, like the stalking aspect of it. I do think that some of this is unique to women's basketball. And because of the way that like for so long, the relationship between fans and players was a lot more intimate, which is cool. I also think that women's basketball players and women in the spotlight in general are much more encouraged and almost expected to share parts of their personal life with their fans. Like there is this sort of like, right, a human interest column sort of aspect of just being like a woman. in public life, like fans want to know who they're dating. Are they friends with your teammates? Are they like nice? Like what is your personality like? I think men are kind of granted a level of like mystery, right? Like Shay is mysterious. And before we were really upset at him for being a flapper, there was this idea that he has or a quiet Leonard because he doesn't talk to anybody. He has or like I feel like a female athlete in that position would actually be much more likely to be called ungrateful. Whereas I think I would be looking at him and be like, wow, cool. Like you are actually like you have managed to not talk. Like I do not know how to do that. But I don't think that there is that like aspect of it where like there is a different expectation of female athletes. I just do think that people feel more entitled to their lives. Like they I do think that they that people have a little bit more of like a sense of ownership over who they are. Now I think how they perform, I think that's pretty similar. I think if anything like men really get on the chin for like how they perform, being like a big part of how they're judged. But I think when it comes to like their actual personal lives, like I do think that there's just a different expectation for women to be like the most like even like nurturing with their friends in a way. And then also to bring in the gay agenda because I can't help it, there is a different relationship like with like queer people and and pair of social relationships with celebrities because there's like a scarcity that leaves a lot of things up to the imagination. Like there's I think a lot of times like queer fan bases are like almost trying to like for place a level of community that they didn't have like by be becoming like fans. And like like you know people will always talk about how like the easy fans for example are like kind of a lot. But yeah, where is that coming from, you know? Like and so I think that there's that aspect of it as well that exists like across like we are celebrity as well. Like not just with athletes. But within you had the other layer that was basketball players like you just see them so vulnerable like five players, no mask, no nothing like you see every day. It gives you a different level of attachment to people as well. - I love that like you know. - And about I think that's like misogyny and an action, right? Like this entitlement to women and how they should behave. And I think that I don't know. I said I want to kind of push back against what you're saying because in some ways it's like you're talking about like this human interest aspects, I don't I don't know if I feel like that's unique to to women's basketball. 'Cause like you've mentioned Kauai, like I'm actually huge Kauai fan. So maybe that's why I know like all this stuff. But like there's a lot about him that's public. Like he's had tragedy in his life with his family and all these different things. Like he loves spending trees. Like I'm sorry, I feel like I took the wind out of your sales. - No, I'm thinking about I'm like planting trees for a generous sum of money. Don't we all like to plant trees? - I would love to plant the tree for $25 million dollars. - Right? - Okay, sorry, you distracted me. But I think my point is is like I do feel like I, maybe this is just like the journalists in me but it's like I do love learning about like who of these players are off the court. And I don't necessarily feel like that's something that is only like that women's basketball players are only subject to. So I think about like all of the NBA players that I know and love. I mean, I do think like what you're saying is just about basketball in general. Like you are so like vulnerable. Like there's no pads and helmets and stuff like that. I mean, I do think we know less about football player like NFL players and we do about NBA players. I do think, I mean, I can think like what is it? North Carolina, Tarjol's men's basketball. We know a lot about their dating history and stuff. You know what I'm saying? Like that's, so I don't know if I, I think that's a really interesting point that you're raising. And there is like this entitlement. And I think in personality like fans do demand players, especially women's basketball players like act to certain way. I think you see that with like Caitlin Clark right now. There's like so much. Or even with Angel Reese about like how, how they up here, like their personalities on and off the court. And it's like, why is that even matter? Why are we writing columns and all this stuff about, I don't know, like having, I don't know. So I, and I don't see that in men's sports. So I think that that's how I would push back. Yeah. I don't know if it's necessarily about like being entitled to their like information about their lives. But I do think that I do see like. It's more of an over policing. It's like, it's a wanting to know about their lives so that you can judge them, so that you can scold them to want to, to live the life that you actually want to live. The other thing I would say is that it's not necessarily that like men's athletes aren't encouraged to share part of their personal lives. I just, I think the social and financial cost of it is much less for them if they would, if they choose not to. Whereas with women's athletes, it's an expectation. And you know what, if you become a brand that people like beyond the court, you will make a lot more money as well. Yeah. It's so true. That's sure many sports. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this was a fascinating conversation, Kelly. Thank you so much for making the time. You're like, I'm never having you on again. So that was too long. No, I felt, I have been watching the clock this entire time being like, I am such an asshole. I am talking to her about like the workplace being more accommodating for four months, while also letting her go on and like asking her more questions while her baby cries in the background. And she wants to go have like dinner with her family. Like, yeah, I would talk to you for longer, but like at a certain point, I feel like I gotta, I gotta let you live your life. And honestly though, I had a fantastic time talking to you. I love having you on the podcast. I feel like we felt like this the last time we talked and I don't know why it's been this long, since I've invited you back. So I'll definitely not wait that long again the next time. If you can see me again. I want to do, was that was that hard? Yeah, no, I think what did we go? We've gone like over a year since the last time we chatted. Yeah, so that was, that was difficult. Maybe that's why we went for so long this time. So I'll invite you on for, I'll invite you on soon. And I will actually only keep you on for the time promised next time. We should, did you say you're going to be at the All Star, but could you do a live something? Well, I don't know for an out time for that. I feel like All Star's gonna be really chaotic. I need to let you go, but yeah, maybe something. We'll see. Yeah, yeah, wait, let's talk. Yeah, let's, let's see if it, yeah. All right, Kelly, thank you so much. It's truly so insightful. Thank you so much for sharing your personal journey, how it's impacted the way that you cover sports. I love the dedication that you have to it. Even in this conversation, the, the, the level at which you are obsessed with making sure that things are correct is something that I deeply appreciate. And I think it makes you really, really good at your job. And I think it makes the people who you cover, really appreciate you. And certainly, I'm sure my listeners will appreciate your perspective as well. Thank you to Stefan Anderson for producing. And we will be back next week. (upbeat music)