Caged Kids

[MUSIC] You made a choice, and that choice was to be thugs. >> They were children, all sentenced to hard time. Lisa, a promising athlete. >> Give me all your money right now, right now. >> She's the girl behind the mask. >> No, it wasn't scary. >> She's serving seven years. >> It was just sad. >> Sean was 16 when he killed his friend's father. She was being abused. >> I was a kid with braces on his teeth that thought he was helping a friend in trouble. >> He got 8 to 24. >> I was introduced to a world I had no idea existed. >> Also. >> We're talking about a 17 year old girl. >> Will Rebecca go free? >> You've been here for how many years? >> Eight years. >> So as far as your concern, the state then will be setting free a cold blooded murderer. >> Kids, tried and convicted as adults. Should we throw away the key? >> What happens if an eight year old shoots somebody? You put them in prison for the rest of their life? >> 48 hours investigates. Caged kids. [MUSIC] >> I'd like to leave around between 7 and 7 30 to get there when visiting hours began around 9. >> Missy Phillips is on her way to visit her son Josh in the Marion Correctional Facility in Lowell, Florida. >> I mean, I love my son, I just, I want to support him and I miss him. >> It's a trip Missy has taken once a week, every week, for the last five years. [MUSIC] >> And then he's always sad when I leave him there. It's hard because it's going to be another week. >> I love my mom, she's, she's really, really strong. >> 20 year old Josh Phillips has spent a quarter of his life behind bars. >> I'm glad that she stayed with me now. >> And will remain in prison until the day he dies. >> When you look into his eyes, when you see his face today, what do you see? >> I see my son, I see a little boy that, that I saw grow up. [MUSIC] >> Josh is a monster in my mind because normal people don't kill their playmates. >> Steve and Sheila Clifton's daughter, Maddie, was just eight years old when she vanished from her Jacksonville, Florida neighborhood in November, 1998. [MUSIC] >> Maddie, please come home, mom and daddy and Jeff here ready for you come on home. >> I'm going in the woods if anybody wants to go with me. >> 48 hours was there as thousands of people searched for Maddie. >> Maddie, it is going to come home, she will come home. >> Maddie, there was the night and day. So it was just this night, man, that was horrible. >> It took seven days for Steve and Sheila Clifton to learn what happened to their daughter. >> We found Maddie Clifton this morning, she was dead. >> Oh my God. >> Maddie Clifton had been right across the street the whole time. Her body stuffed under 14 year old Josh Phillips water bed. [MUSIC] >> It's the brutal, senseless, larder. >> Josh told police that while playing, he accidentally hit Maddie with a baseball. >> He told the police that he carried her in the house and took her to his room and put her on the floor. >> This is Josh's dad, Steve Phillips, in 1998. >> And that she started to make noises and he got scared even more. Scared because Josh was afraid of getting in trouble. In a panic, Josh hit Maddie with a baseball bat and stabbed her to stop her screaming. [MUSIC] >> In case of the state of Florida versus Joshua Earl Patrick Phillips. >> Josh, who had no history of violence, was charged as an adult with murder. >> We the jury find the defendant guilty of murder in the first degree. >> Mr. Phillips in the custody, please. >> In the early 1990s, most states, including Florida, changed their laws, making it easier to try juveniles as adults, putting the emphasis on punishment rather than rehabilitation. It was in this climate in 1999 that Josh Phillips was sentenced to life without parole. [MUSIC] >> He was convicted justly. >> 48 hours interviewed the Clifton's a week after Josh was convicted. >> Does Josh deserve to spend the rest of his life in prison? >> I believe so. I don't know what should happen, but I'd like to get out. >> This was 15 year old Josh before he was transferred to state prison. Why did this happen? >> I don't know, I don't think I have the answer. >> And after five years in prison. >> I really don't know, not really. >> Josh still doesn't have the answer. >> Were you angry? Were you an angry young man at 14? >> I had anger in me, I guess. And then maybe I should get some kind of counseling or something. >> I find out what's wrong with me. >> But since he's been incarcerated, Josh hasn't had any counseling to understand why he killed Maddie. >> I'm just sitting here, you know. I'm doing this sitting here, eating, doing stuff that I work. And that's all I do every day, and this would be like that pretty much till I die. >> Maybe one day he's going to realize the severity of how many people he affected by doing what he did. >> Sheila Clifton's life has been dramatically changed since her daughter, Maddie, was murdered. [MUSIC] >> After 25 years of marriage, Sheila and Steve Clifton are now divorced. >> My husband, he was so struck in the grief. We just went in totally different directions. Watching her grow up, the dreams and the hopes that we had are gone. And that's a hard thing for mom to accept. >> What do you think about when you think of Maddie? >> I think about this little girl that didn't deserve to die. And I try to think what the hell is going through my head, you know. I screwed up my life, I screwed up her. She's not going to have a chance to do anything, as I saw it because of me. >> I believe in redemption. I believe that there needs to be a second chance. Florida State Senator Stephen Geller may hold the key to Josh Phillips' future. >> We have to start recognizing the children are not just short adults. What happens if an eight-year-old shoots somebody? Do you put them in prison for the rest of their life? Under current Florida law, you can. I'm sorry, I think that's wrong. >> If we pass today's bill, we'll be able to do something about that. >> He has introduced a bill that would make first time violent juvenile offenders serving life sentences, eligible for parole after eight years. >> Charles Manson gets the opportunity to have parole. Why should this 14-year-old at the time of the act? Why should they not have the opportunity for parole? >> For now though, prison, not parole, is Josh's reality. >> It was just lately that the life sentence is just hitting me kind of. Every day you see a big line in the medical, every day for pills and stuff. You see a bunch of guys walkers and stuff and it looks like that might be me another 50 years. >> Since Josh has been away, his father Steve died in a car accident. >> Josh loved his dad and Steve loved Josh, so I had to stay strong for Josh. >> I was like, I got mom now, but she's all I got left. >> But with all that has happened, Josh has done well in prison. Despite living in the general adult population since he was 15, he says he was never sexually assaulted. >> No, I've never really had any physical problems in prison. >> Josh has gone on to receive his high school diploma, and now works as a law clerk advising fellow inmates. >> He wants to do well, he wants to make something of himself. >> What do you believe should happen to Josh? >> I believe he should have a chance to get out someday. >> And surprisingly today. >> I don't hate him, I hate what he did. >> Even Maddie's mother has had a change of heart. >> Do you think that Josh should ever get a second chance at life? [MUSIC] >> Maybe one day, being put away in prison for life is a can of magic. I don't think any child should have to suffer that. >> I don't think it's appropriate to lock him up and throw away the key. >> And Senator Gillard may have an unexpected ally. >> Just last week, Florida's conservative governor, Jeb Bush, said he is seriously considering supporting Gillard's bill. But if the bill passes, it may affect only future cases. Meaning Josh's life sentence would be. remain his only hope would be a grant of clemency what would you do if you had a second chance if I got out I'd you know I'd owe the world a lot you know because it gave me a second chance and I tried to do whatever I could to repay him so I don't know what his average hands are not but I know I want the chance Sean thought he was helping a friend in trouble I really didn't think of the repercussions he's had 16 years to think about it I mean I made a huge mistake I was introduced to a world I had no idea existed still to come no right now when we don't start to deal effectively with our situations we're never going to be able to get passed them as much as you can try I'm just a good listener and you can't underestimate the power of a good listener that's not good enough sometimes in this group listening is all Sean Pika can do I kind of relate because I just came home myself they are men recently released from prison how long you away for three years despite the shirt and tie and a master's degree Sean can relate to their struggles a lot of times there's not too many doors open for us that's because Sean Pika the counselor was once Sean Pika the convict it's hard to swallow that due to my own efforts my own hand that I lost 16 years of my life Sean now 35 spent half of his life in maximum security prison when I was 16 years old I shot and killed my friend's father it was in 1986 here in Selden Long Island where Sean Pika a high school junior sat next to a girl named Cheryl Pearson in home room although they were just casual friends Cheryl confided in Sean that her father was physically abusing her desperate to stop the abuse Cheryl told Sean she would pay him to kill her father I was I was a very confused mixed up kid I really didn't think of the repercussions Sean who had witnessed domestic violence in his own home agreed to help Cheryl we determined that as two 16 year olds that this was the only way that we were going to be able to deal with this situation what was your relationship like with Cheryl Pearson did you have a crush on her I think maybe a little crush but I don't think that's what motivated me if I think I was just more less I thought I was helping a friend it was February 5th 1986 before dawn Sean hid behind some bushes in front of the Pearson home a loaded 22 caliber rifle at his side how did I get here and am I about to really take somebody's life it was pretty dark and when the father came out in the morning for work I walked out of the shrubbery and I shot and killed him it was wrong and I know it was wrong I knew it was wrong then but I still believed I was doing it for the right reason Sean and Cheryl were arrested a week later and the teenagers quickly made headlines the word was hitman and the fact was I was a 16 year old kid with braces on his teeth it wasn't even shaving yet I thought he was helping a friend in trouble although they both pled guilty to manslaughter their sentences were very different when it was determined that Cheryl's father had also sexually abused her the judge showed mercy releasing Cheryl after just three and a half months in county jail but for Sean it was just the beginning I'd never been arrested before I was introduced to a world I had no idea existed sentenced to eight to 24 years Sean was to spend the next 16 in state prison I spent a lot of years just getting through day to day I did what a lot of guys do I used the only thing that's available to numb myself to escape the situation and you know you get high drugs and a bad attitude landed Sean in solitary confinement twice really it was those stays in solitary where I just said you know what I can't live like this mentally I can't take it and I started to make some changes at that point those changes meant getting an education in prison where surprisingly Sean got a lot of support from his fellow inmates all the men that were my mentors and uh which is there for me for so many years I always a shoulder lean on uh no matter what the situation was these guys were always there for me always had my back while serving his time Sean received his high school diploma a bachelor's degree and a master's degree the only thing that I carried out those gates with me was that education and I'll tell you when I went to those gates to be released after 16 years I had never been so scared in my life Sean was paroled from Sing Sing correctional facility in December 2002 these past few months just experiencing so many things for the first time I mean things that everyone around me takes for granted I mean I made a mistake and I I'll be the first to admit it was a huge mistake but I still believe I deserve the second chance today Sean is making the most out of that second chance his days are now spent working with tenants in this East Harlem housing project and Sean is still going to school now he's working towards a second master's degree in social work what does your family think about you today what you're doing they proud of you they got to be very proud Sean's family never gave up on him but nothing is more important to Sean than his other family those who have served their time too we're gonna have to start getting into some more of the deeper issues and looking deeper at ourselves here at strife Sean helps former inmates adjust to life on the outside the prison system is just filled with so many men like myself that got in trouble young and spent the next 15 or 20 years in prison and went to school and really do deserve a second chance and I think that they should get it just like I got it Lisa was popular athletic a kid from the birds she's also give me all your money right now an armed robber give me all your fucking money go now what got you here I guess I didn't care this dramatic cold up was caught by a store security camera in Texas it turned out to be the first in a series of five convenience store robberies pulled off by a well organized gang just kept telling me you got two seconds bitch or we're gonna shoot you and I didn't get the cash right just for open I was hitting all the buttons nothing was working they scared me so bad and when you feel like you're gonna die that's what that's not a good feeling the holdups didn't make much news until the gang members were finally caught and their identities revealed police say they were gun wielding girls residents of the suburban kingwood community are shocked to learn four female teenagers have been arrested for armed robbery ladies you're here before the court today for formal arrangement four teenage girls moonlighting as armed robbers and not just girls but middle and upper class girls all high school students living in kingwood an affluent area of Houston the girls boastfully called themselves the queens of armed robbery the first thing I thought when I saw them is that they were drug addicts judge mark Ellis had never faced defendants quite like these in his court. Part of the reason the crimes were being committed was to get money for dope. Oh, you're f---ing good. How did you go? Now! The girl behind this mask and the frightening bravado was the last person you'd expect to commit a robbery. 17-year-old Lisa Warzika. When we first met her, she was facing trial for robbery. A gifted young athlete with hopes for a college scholarship I had so much potential and I just wasted it. She's now a woman, 21 years old, and more than halfway through the seven-year prison sentence, she received for armed robbery. It's scumbag pretty fast. I kept myself pretty busy. But Lisa says it was almost unbearable. When she first got to prison, two people tried to slit their throats. I think another tried to hang herself. And some people get that hopeless. Lisa had hoped to avoid prison. She and co-defendant Katie Dunn pled guilty, hoping they'd get probation from a sympathetic jury. But they had few answers for prosecutor Terrence Wyndham's tough questions. That lady behind the counter, you scared the living daylights out of her den. Yes, I did. I want your true honest feelings. But if this happened to you, you'd want somebody to go to the pin, wouldn't you? Yes. The jury agreed and so did Judge Ellis. You made a choice. And that choice was to be thugs, to go out and take money at gunpoint and to terrorize these people. Spare me your tears. You have some of the wind and you have now reaped the whirlwind. Those are tough words. Well, it's hard to feel sorry for the girls. They were violent, scary crimes, too many crimes. Was it the right sentence? Absolutely. Seven years in a Texas state prison. At the time, it seemed like a harsh sentence for first offenders. There was also the risk that the teens who went in would come out hard and criminals. But four years later, in Lisa's case, it appears as if the judge and the jury were right. I work on the maintenance crew. Today, Lisa Warzika is not exactly doing hard time at the Gatesville Women's Prison outside Waco, Texas. You do plumbing? Sort of, yes. She's managed to graduate high school, earn an associate's degree, and has been accepted by the University of Texas for her bachelor's degree. Do you hear from anyone from your high school class? One friend, occasionally. But while she's lost friends from home, she's regained close relations with her sister and her parents, who have once thought they had lost forever the little girl they raised. She was constantly in our face, very aggressive, very hostile. And not the daughter he knew, as Rand Warzika told us at the time of Lisa's trial. It was like somebody had come in into her body and taken the Lisa we knew out. And another bad foul mouth, bad attitude person came inside and was living in her house. Today, the old Lisa is back. I have a worse off. Forgive me on this, but it sounds like this might have been a good place for you to come to. Sometimes, I think that, you know. But there have been disappointments. Lisa was turned down in her first attempt at parole. All I could do is apologize and move on. People afterwards thought of you as a common criminal. Sure they did. But did you think of yourself that way? Yes, I am. I am a criminal. Do you think it's possible you'll be here the entire seven years or close to it? It's, it's possible. I'm hoping for the best, but kind of expecting the worst. In some ways, you've grown up here. Right. Eight years in prison, a conviction for murder. How much punishment is enough? Could Rebecca be said free? The verdict hasn't changed. She's still guilty and has been found guilty of murder. G'day, I'm Justin Wolfers, host of the Platypus Economics podcast. If there's one thing I've learned from a career teaching economics, it's that your life is shaped by economic currents you'll never see. A single price tag can explain things a thousand experts can't. People who understand economics, they make better decisions in their careers, their finances, their relationships, in their communities, and I want that for you. Listen to and follow Platypus Economics, available now wherever you get your podcasts. We're talking about murder. The Ohio State Parole Board today faces a momentous decision. Should it recommend clemency for a convicted murderer? And I submit to you, this murder is one of the worst murders I've ever seen. In prison, sits the murderer. 26-year-old Rebecca Hopper. What are your thoughts on the eve of this? I'm pretty nervous about it. This is the third time we've filed for clemency. And if prosecutor David Frances Shelley has his way, she will fail again today. We're here again, third time for clemency. And if you truly think about it, this defendant has never acknowledged what she did. 1994. Prosecutors charged 17-year-old Rebecca Hopper with killing her newborn baby. You told the parole board that this was the worst murder case you had seen in 20 years. Were you really serious about that? A newborn baby was born and she took that baby and that baby was crying and squirming and she stuffed it in trash bags and stuffed it in a trash can in the garage. If that's not heinous enough for you, I don't know what is. So heinous that Rebecca was tried in adult court and sentenced to 15 years to life. You've been here for how many years? Eight years. I mean, in some ways you've grown up here. Right, right? We first met Rebecca in 1998. She was 21 and had served just three years. But memories of life before prison already were fading. It's her friend or member like what my personality was like and how I was with other people. No, that I'm not the same person that I used to be. Rebecca grew up in Dayton, Ohio, a good student talented artist, writer in the high school band. From centerville, Ohio, the centerville jazz band. But at 17, after what she says was her first sexual experience, Rebecca found herself pregnant. It's like every teenage girl's nightmare, basically. She never told her parents and they never caught on. In part because Rebecca showed few physical signs. It was strange because sometimes I even wondered if it wasn't just my imagination because I never felt her kick. I never felt her move. Then the inevitable. In the upstairs bathroom, behind closed doors, Rebecca gave birth, alone, to a baby that weighed just over four pounds. And so I pushed once and she just like flew out. The horror only got worse. In her quarters, right underneath. And she was all gray. I can see every building in her body. I was like, no, she's going to be okay. She's going to be okay. But it wasn't okay. She says the baby was dead at birth. And I guess I panicked. It was like, and I put her in the bags and I picked her up and I carried her downstairs and I later in the trash can in the garage. You did nothing at all. It's a harm that baby. It was not alive. No, she wasn't alive. You're absolutely sure. Yes. Rebecca then went back into the house and watched TV with her mother. What were you feeling when you were sitting there watching TV? That's something I'm glad to death. But she still said nothing to her parents. Soon she did confide in one friend and that was all it took for word to get out. Suddenly, we hear this. door. Within days detectives confronted Rebecca's mother, Brenda. I'm about right here and the three of them are clustered right there. We know from some central people that your daughter had a baby, delivered a baby killed it and threw it in the trash. I said what? Brenda was shocked, astonished. Exactly who said what would be hotly disputed later but police did get Rebecca to sign a statement. She did cry and she was still moving once I put her in the bag. That's what she was told to write. With a very incriminating last sentence, a sentence that raises serious questions for Rebecca's father can. It does not flow, does not follow. It's totally not even the way she writes. Why would you write that sentence under any circumstances? Because I was scared and I trusted the police officers. So I felt like if I cooperate with them the things are going to be fine whether it's true or not. And so I wrote what they told me to write. Armed with that confession, prosecutors claimed that Rebecca clearly was too hard core to be rehabilitated in the juvenile system. So off to adult court she went. There was talk of a plea bargain to the lesser charge of manslaughter. But Rebecca told us in 1998 that she wasn't interested. I turned it down because I wasn't going to admit to something that I didn't do. Rebecca, you'd be out by now. I don't care. She was still moving once I put her in the bag. You wrote that. At Rebecca's trial, prosecuting the case, the very same David Frances Shelley. He hammered Rebecca on the stand. Tell the jury now. Tell the jury was a baby alive or dead. Which story is it today? She alive or dead when she's born? My story all along has been that she has been dead. But the jury didn't buy it. The jury had a fine to defend it. Rebecca didn't hop for a guilty of murderous charge. Never forget that moment with you. It's a terrible moment. She was 17 and that and that's a part of this that kept getting lost. Everybody kept treating her like she was 35 years old. You know, we're talking about a 17 year old girl. Even the judge had misgivings. The late Lee Bixler. It was a shame to ruin her life, prospect of this little girl being rehabilitated was excellent. But the judge had no leeway. In Ohio, a murder conviction in adult court means a mandatory sentence of 15 years to life. We don't have anything that says for a young child who is in this kind of situation, we have something less than a guy who chops somebody up with an axe. David Frances Shelley defends the lengthy sentence. She's made her bad and she needs to sleep in it. And if it's 15 years of life, so be it. In 1998, Rebecca was still a troubled girl as reflected in her drawings. What have you learned through all of this? I haven't learned a lot about myself yet, because I still pretty much hate myself. But remarkably, five years later, Rebecca Hopper seems a very different person. So you laugh now and you didn't laugh the first time I talked to you. I mean, you have changed. Hating yourself takes a lot of energy, so easier just to let some of that go then to hold on to it, I guess. But one thing hasn't changed. Rebecca still insists she did not kill her baby. As for turning down that plea bargain, at least I know that I've stuck by what I believe to be true, so I can blame my head down at night and go to sleep with a good conscience. Right, but you're going to sleep in prison. That's okay. There's one victim here. Certainly it's fine with David Franceschelli, who is back in front of Ohio's parole board, trying again to keep Rebecca in prison. A lot of girls have babies and they don't stick them in plastic bags like that. And she comes here today not accepting responsibility for the third time, the third time. The bottom line to this case is how much punishment is enough. But now it's Rebecca's turn and her attorney is about to argue that the charges against his client are unjust, her sentence, unfair. Rebecca faces at least seven more years in prison unless she wins this fight for freedom. That's next. [Music] I don't really have too great of expectations because the let down is bad. Today while Rebecca Hopper sits in prison, her parents can and Brenda prepare to face Ohio's parole board in a battle for their daughter's freedom. They told us that there had never been a clevency hearing where there were 20 supporters there. And so we were going to be sure that we had more than 20. Rebecca's been a model prisoner, even earned a college degree. But growing up in prison has taken its toll. I just hate the time it's taking away from her. She already feels like she's old. She says model is 30. And what do I have to show for my life? Now Rebecca's attorney, Madri Ellis, must convince Ohio's parole board to give that life back. And are we at that point now where enough is enough and it's time to let her go? Ellis knows the board is eager to hear remorse from Rebecca. Problem is she still says she did not kill her baby. But Ellis argues that doesn't mean that Rebecca isn't sorry for what happened. She didn't tell anybody she was pregnant. She didn't tell her mother, then tell any of our school teachers, school counselors. And she admits that that was wrong. Wrong, but not he says grounds for a murder conviction. Rebecca has been severely punished when you compare her case to other young women who were in similar circumstances. And Ellis says in those cases no one got a life sentence. It's always been the same. But prosecutor David Franceschelli will hear none of it. That's what they keep doing. Baby was dad. Baby was dad. Baby was dad. Let us go. Never admitting responsibility for her actions. Never never saying, Hey, listen, I killed my baby. I'm sorry. And this hearing is now adjourned. Thank you for this. Rebecca's hearing is over, but the board will take its time to decide. Thank you for being here. We have been set back so many times and hurt so many times. It's hard to get optimistic. It really is. You just sit here and wait. Right, what's that like? Never fracking. One month later, you said there's evidence. The Ohio parole board is recommending that a Miami Valley woman in prison for killing her child be considered for release. Fantastic. I still have the old numb. Then shortly thereafter, even better news, Ohio's governor Bob Taft accepts the parole board's recommendation and grants Rebecca clemency. It's just a shock. Like you're still in shock. I just wanted to stand up and down and go, oh my god, is it real? You know, really, really, really. Governor Taft's order says he acted because of overwhelming community support for Rebecca, because of her age at the time of the crime and her achievements while in prison. Prosecutor Frances Shelley thinks the governor is about to set a cold-blooded murderer free. She's still guilty and has been found guilty of murder or a purposeful killing of her newborn baby. That's not going to change. The prosecutor's views are of little concern to Rebecca today. This is very impressive looking. Yes. So you got this today? Yes. What do you do with this? Probably put it someplace very safe. She'll spend her first few months as a free woman at home. Sometimes I kind of worry that maybe my parents are going to try to pick up where we left off and treat you as they did when you were 17. Yes. So it'll be an adjustment for everybody. But it's an adjustment everybody is eager to make. She just needs to make some of her own decisions and she says, "Mom, if I fall on my face, then I fall on my face." But I need to do it myself. I'm ready to have a, or at least try to have a normal life. So I'm ready. Rebecca Hopper gets to go home in May. One condition of her release is finding work, but she has a job lined up with a car dealer and an offer to intern with a state lawmaker who's been a supporter. In the years since most states toughened up their juvenile crime laws, Give all of them. been second thoughts and some revisions. Some states are giving judges more flexibility in sentencing, but others are just fine-tuning the harsh penalties. It'll probably be years before we can really know the full impact of the hardline approach. Sean Pekka is the president of Hudson Link, an organization that provides education, life skills, and re-entry support to incarcerated and formally incarcerated individuals.