C.M Wolf Ep. 93

What's going on guys? Dustin with the LFG 1904 Show. Reconstruction Rescue is your best choice for flood restoration services in San Diego County. With years of experience of it industry their dedicated team project managers will work hand in hand with you from start to finish. Specializing in home insurance water damage claims. They take on the headache of dealing with your insurance company so you don't have to. Call this number today for a free estimate. 760-891-9919. Once again that number 760-891-9919. Reconstruction Rescue. Y'all know the deal. Fucking burn in daylight here. These guys are in for a fucking treat today. Yes sir welcome back to the show guys. Boy oh boy. Do we have a fucking banger for everybody today? We have no other than author from broken right broken. CM wolf Charlie wolf and I'm gonna tell you guys right now I just met her and her story is absolutely insane. So we can we can just start taking it into it right away but Charlie what you're going to introduce yourself and let us know where you're from. I feel like I should open it up the same way do it means. Hi my name is Charlie and I'm an addict. There you go. I am from Alterado Hills California and before that it was pretty much like Rockland so just northern California. Got it. How do you like that? Do you like living there? Yeah I miss it a lot actually. It's being in San Diego's very there's a lot of people right and there's a lot of buildings. I where I grew up there is a lot of like oak preserves just a lot of more nature I guess you could say and a lot less people. When I first started riding a bike after I got out of prison I actually had to ask somebody what the rules were for riding a bike in the city because where I grew up you just wrote it you know on the sidewalk but I know that they have bike lanes here and I've heard other drivers like cuss out the bike people or when I'm on the sidewalk people cuss out people bikes on the sidewalk so I'm like is this a law should I be doing this and I'm gonna piss somebody off like yeah people say nid but don't like they don't like bicyclists but there is a lot of places that you're they made roads for bicyclists now which is cool you know I mean it's I know a few people from I'm from a little small town in San Diego too and I knew a few people that were hit by a bicycle that's just insane. Yeah a few tweakers yeah that's a mystery guest today guys we'll figure out you'll see if you can know who it is so anyways you wrote this book right so broken and where did you write this book in prison wow so before we get into all that because this is I'm gonna have to slow it down a little bit hold on so let me just break it down for you guys real quick so Charlie at the age of 14 was incarcerated for murder well you know what I shouldn't even tell the story it's your story Charlie just go ahead let's just let's just get right down to it when did your disease start when did when did you notice a change in your life um honestly I think the first time I ever really acted on my addiction didn't have anything to do with a substance the first time I tried to kill myself I was 16 or not sorry 16 6 and from that point forward you know self-medilation was definitely like if you want to talk about a first first love of self-harm that was it wow six years old and that's so true we we talked about this on the podcast all the time our addiction starts with our behaviors way before we pick up yeah and so you recognize that at six you wanted to kill yourself what was the reasoning for that at the time I didn't realize it um my mom started molesting me when I was about five or six that's the earliest memory that I have of it um and then shortly after was the first time I was watching a CSI episode like the original one and there was this guy who um bit out his wrist because he didn't want to go to prison um and he died and I remember asking my mom how he did that and you know she told me oh you know he he bit open his wrist but when I asked her where she said on top instead of on bottom I don't know if she had you know some kind of sense that I was asking because I might want to do it um but to me the just the concept of escape because I didn't want to live my life anymore and I want to be there anymore so it just resonated with me really strongly and I started biting myself until I you know discovered razors when I was think eleven so okay where was your dad never met him never met him so it's just you and your mom yep no siblings no sip I mean thank god yeah I mean I hate to say that but it's like you're I just know your story and we're gonna get into it people will understand that soon enough but man I couldn't imagine I mean the things that you went through but so six years old you try to commit suicide and how did you try to do that a biting out my wrist biting out your wrist but on top so instead of going right to the main vein you were just okay yeah because so it makes sense maybe your mom didn't catch on to that yeah she um it's kind of weird because I know I had marks and I was actually interviewed by a cps worker when I was nine and obviously at the time I didn't realize that it was a behavior to hide I didn't think I was gonna get in trouble for it it was just something that I did if I felt overwhelmed or I was having a panic attack that's how I would calm myself back down and I did it when I was in a cps interview and she noted it but you know nothing ever happened it's not wild I can relate to that so I I was abused as a kid and most people that listen already know that too but I remember I cps would come unfortunately people in my family they got to me and made me lie and basically say oh you know he's just you know he lies a lot which was I wish now because things would have been different right do you ever wish that too a lot I um I was a big liar too um when I was a kid uh developed as kind of a defense mechanism um living in my house but I basically and started lying about everything so when I was telling the truth you know nobody nobody was gonna believe me um and I don't know how much different it would have been um I know that at one point I was removed from my home when I was four for physical abuse and then I was given back to my mom about six months later and I don't know how differently I mean obviously my life definitely wouldn't have ended up the way that it did but um I was already pretty predisposed to becoming an addict so destruction would have happened absolutely just to think about that though four years old things could have the tables could have been way different but you know what that's just your purpose in your life that's just it is what it is now you know and it made it made you the person that you are now and there's a lot of chaos that happened in between that time so I like the fact that she said um that regardless that there was like some destructive behaviors that we're gonna happen later on regardless of the outcome of getting took it away or or staying there because there's something in us that just gravitates to that you know for me and myself you know I grew up in a you know a pretty crazy atmosphere you know people in and out of prison and a lot of drugs around me and uh you know I was able to access a lot of those drugs because of how close they were and the fact that you know I was able to get high with with my parents but I feel like that regardless of all of that like I can't put no blame on that that situation because it was just in me it was in me and I feel that and I believe that you know right now I agree I take full responsibility you know yeah and and honestly some people will never wouldn't take responsibility a lot of people like doing the blame game and their entire life and maybe they're normies or whatever right like being an addict and recovery we're so so blessed because we're able to identify these things. And we didn't identify them. ourselves. Let's be honest. Somebody else had to teach us and walk us through, you know, situational things, right? Like, no, no, no, no. This is why you did this, right? I mean, maybe normal people wake up one day and be like, wow, that was really fucked off. And I shouldn't be doing that, you know, and live a great life. Well, for me, no, sorry, I had to beat my fucking head into the wall about 50,000 times. Yeah, absolutely. Anyways, let's go, Charlie Wolf. Let's talk about it. So at, uh, so the abuse started happening. I mean, honestly, I probably started to happen at four, right? I mean, if you were taking away at four, there was some sort of abuse, maybe even less station, but we don't know, but your knowledge of the, less station started at five or six. How long did that last for? About five years it stopped when I was 11. Um, so like my earliest memory that I have period is of, um, getting slapped across the face when I was four and then taken from my mom by CPS later that day. So I just, like, my very earliest memory is of abuse and like, just trauma. And then, um, my mom was an alcoholic and she had untreated bipolar depression. She's self-medicated. Um, she was also an addict. She abused her prescription pain meds. Um, and it was just, you know, she was a rage-aholic, um, because of the bipolar depression. Rules were never the same two days in a row. Um, her lows were really, really low, like crawling on the ground, crying, begging for my forgiveness for what she'd done to me, like that week, that month, two years ago, whatever the case was, eventually she got to the point where she felt like if I hit her back, we would be even. And so she started doing this thing where she would take me into her room and she would sit me on top of her and she wouldn't let me get off and she would scream at me until I had hit her enough times and hard enough that she felt we were even for whatever she had done to me. And, um, that with the molestation, um, I don't know how different it was from other people's experience. I don't think that my mom derived any kind of like sexual pleasure from it. Um, honestly, the kind of molestation it was, was she treated me more like a partner than a daughter and a lot of people have tried to say, "Oh, well, she flipped roles on you." Like, you were the mom like, "No, no, no, I was her wife." And she would discuss things with me like I was her partner and the molestation was more in line with that. Like, she wanted somebody to love her and to comfort her and to, you know, be there in a emotional and then a physical capacity and she used me for that. And that's not to, you know, excuse her from that behavior. She's just, she was really, really sick. And that lasted until you were 11. Yeah, she, um, we started going to therapy. The wonders of therapy. Together. Yeah. Okay. Um, and then also separately. Um, to be honest, uh, my mom apologized to, for everything she ever did to me, you know, when she was in her lows, except for molesting me. And I think the reason for that is because something was done to her. I think that's where she learned it. And I don't think that she realized the wrongness of what she was doing until she was going to therapy. Because I'd been going to therapy since I was four. It was court mandated. Um, and, but until she started going to therapy, she started seeing a therapist and she started getting on medication for her disease. I think at some point, she talked about what had happened to her and a therapist and the therapist told her you were molested. That's what happened to you. That's what that is. And it stopped because I don't have any other explanation as to why that stopped. So suddenly, why she, I would say almost stopped drinking. I mean, it went from being three sometimes four times a week to maybe once a month. It was a huge, yeah, that's, that's, yeah, I was about to say, that's pretty drastic. That's significant too. So just stop just stop. I mean, obviously, so in some sense, the therapy was working. Oh, yeah. And she, she became a whole different person too. Like I was used to, I mean, raging, terrifying, like I was terrified of my mother. I mean, I, to this day, I was, I'm a horror movie buff. And yet to this day, I have not seen anything in this life that scares me more than she did. I was so, like, hyperventilating, unable to stop crying, wet my pants, terrified. And she went to being the kind of person that did that regularly to, and then got mad at me because I was crying. Not, and because she, I think she was so ashamed of being the person that made me cry, that she got even angrier. So she told me to, to shut up and that I was lying when I said I was scared of her to being the kind of person that used humor to diffuse situations and trying to actually have conversations with me and work through problems. And if we were too heated, go to our corners and then come back when we're both a little bit calmer to talk about it. Like when I say like, 361, 80, there's not a degree of difference. I was so surprised. I was so shocked. And I didn't understand it because nobody ever sat me down, you know, and said, like, hey, this is how she used to behave. This is how she's behaving now. This is why. And all of that stuff was wrong, which is why she's stopping it. You know, and I didn't understand. And so for like the first year that she changed and she was so different, I thought it, I thought it tooth and nail. I remember purposefully egging her on and instigating arguments with her. And she would always ask me why. And I said, because this is fake. This isn't who you are. I'm going to make, I'm going to make you show that the real you is in there because this isn't you. And honestly, it was because my that's I'd learn how to deal with my mom up until that point, you know, and I knew how to navigate that relationship with my mom. I knew how to manipulate that to get my needs met. I knew how to work around that. I knew how to survive in that. I didn't know what to do with this new mom. Like I didn't know how to handle that situation. I didn't know how to handle like when we get sober, like I didn't know how to handle healthy or healthier. Like I had no idea what to do with that. So we're so accustomed to chaos. We thrive and live through it. And you're so young. I mean, I mean, now you still are now, but then and you're that's the thought process. That's what's going through your little out of lesson brain. Like how can I manipulate my mom in order not to be touched or you know, fucked with or some it's so fucking wild. I mean, I mean, obviously there's no excuse for what she has done, but do you know a little bit about her history at all? Like, I mean, obviously there was some molestation or something that because that shit just happens. It's generational fucking tragedy too. Yeah. I am. My mom was raised by an alcoholic bipolar mother. Jesus. Yeah. And she used to beat the crap out of her like way worse. I mean, my mom, my mom never put me in the hospital. Her mom like to the day that she died. She had to scar on her forehead from when her mom threw a metal dollhouse at her, kicked her down the stairs with locker in the pantry. You know, without just for hours. And this is a living hell. From what she explained to me, my grandfather divorced her mom when my mom was about 16, remarried. And I mean, it shows you how abusive she was because nobody in my family ever spoke to her again except my mom. She tried to continue having a relationship with her mother for a couple more years after that. And then I wound my mom was in college. I think her mom, they got into it and her mom tried to hurt her like she tried to beat on her again. And my mom's an adult at that point. And she slammed her, my mom slammed her up against the wall and told her, you know, you're never going to touch me again. She walked out the house and she never spoke to her again until I was about nine. Like my cousins didn't even know she existed. She didn't know that our Nana, my grandfather's second wife, the only grandmother I've really ever known, wasn't our birth grandmother until my mom told me and I told them. And then my uncle got really pissed because they didn't talk about her. She didn't exist. They didn't go to her funeral when she died. I only ever spoke to her once over the phone when I was nine. - Mm. - Wow. - Yeah. - That's some heavy shit right there. I mean, you talk about the, you know, generational fucking curse. - Oh yeah. - The only thing that I was thinking about the entire time that you were talking about is like you're the stopping point. You know, you're the person that's gonna change that family dynamic. You know what you already are. - Absolutely. - And you know, you're sitting here talking with us to generates and, you know, your story. I just, we've said this before that we've heard it aired but there's gonna be so many men and women that are gonna listen to this and just they're gonna be able to relate on so many different things. - Yeah, I mean, and unfortunately, you know, we have to go through a lot of these, you know, these crazy moments in our life. And I mean, obviously you went through some really traumatic stuff in a long prison term as well. But, you know, it takes moments like that for us to like, really change and, you know, realize that we don't want that for ourselves or for the future of our children, you know. And by you doing the work and sitting here in this podcast with us talking, I mean, that shows a lot right there, you know. - Yeah, definitely does. So, with that being said, so that stopped out of 11, the dynamic was just different and you're trying to cope with that, right? So, when did you, what's the next move, I guess? What's the next step to this fucking story and scenario? - So, we had up until that point a little bit later. I didn't even know my mom was an alcoholic. So, what she would do is she would lock herself in her room on the weekends or at the end of a day. And she would just be gone. - Right. - You know, there were-- - Just isolated. - Yeah, there were multiple weekends where I didn't see my mom for like three days. Or she'd come in-- - Just crowds of bottles and just gets to town. - Yeah, she would come in my room like Monday morning and she'd come and she'd ask me, hey, do you want to go to school today? No. - Yeah, thanks for asking. - Yeah, I was like, I got bullied all the time. Absolutely not. - Right. - Socially awkward, no friend, kid. Yeah, absolutely not. And not to mention I was horrible in school, D.F. - Of course. Look at your fucking house. You know what I mean? That makes perfect sense. - Yeah, well, the sad thing is that she thought I had dyslexia or some kind of learning disorder because she had dyslexia. And so she just assumed I got bad grades because of that. She got me tested. And then she got my IQ tested. And when she found out the results, she was very wrong. And when she found out just how smart I was, it just added fuel to the fire because she could not understand why I was so bad at school and it just became another reason to fuel the abuse. Like homework. Going over homework in my house was like a surefire way for some type of physical abuse, panic attack, and crying myself to sleep at night every time. But so, like I said, by around that time, I didn't know my mom was an alcoholic. I just knew the behavior. The slurred speech, the not making sense, the wacky behavior having to cover for her. And when I would ask my mom, why did you do that? Why did you say that? I was like, one time I came out in the middle of the night listening to my dog yelping. How old were you? At this point. When I came out in the middle of the night. Yeah, I'm just trying to get to a point like so she start drinking. I know, so rewind. So 11, 11, the less station stops. She was getting some therapy. You guys were doing it together. But that you would be a closet drinker. Was that shortly right after that time span? I was like from my whole life up until about 11. The behavior stopped. So instead of it being like three or four times a week, it was maybe like, like I said, like maybe once every two weeks, like twice a month, I would see it. And when I was younger and I would ask her, you know, why are you behaving like that? She would always say, oh, I don't remember that. I didn't do that. Like I saw you doing that. Or you were talking to me. I know you said that her response was, oh, I must have been half asleep. So for my whole life up until 11 and a little bit later, my vocabulary for that behavior was, she was half asleep. God, the levels of manipulation. The levels of, oh, man, the fact that she just, just minimized the fact that you weren't going, you're not doing good in school. It was the way that you were living in dyslexia. Like the fuck out of here. I mean, my family thought I was dyslexic too. I think I'm just going to find out. I'm just dumb. God. Yeah. But, yeah, so it was, that's all I knew how to call it. And in my head, as much as I hated it at the same time, it was, I remember it was almost like a chant, you know. It's not her fault. She doesn't know what she's doing. You know, she can't help it. She's half asleep. Right. It's not her fault. She can't help it. She's half asleep. Right. And, I mean, I didn't change me, you know, sitting on the counter sometimes praying she wouldn't come home. Yeah. But, at the end of the day, it still, it wasn't her fault. So, after 11, when those things started decreasing, after like the first year, and I started kind of, we started learning a different type of relationship, dynamic now. I started actually having friends and doing well in school. Surprise. It was a middle school at that point. And, I started learning actually how to interact with other people in a way that wasn't abusive, because I used to be very abusive myself. And, when I was 13, it was a summer between middle school and high school, I was vacuuming our house in her room. And, I was lifted up the bed skirt to get as far underneath the bed, her bed as I could. And, I heard the clink, clink, clink lifted up the bed skirt. And, there was like, you know, six, seven empty wine bottles stashed into her bed. And, at 13, you know, watching Seattle, watching CSI my whole life, you know, all of a sudden it just went, bing, bing, bing, bing, you know, like, oh, this is why. It all clicked. And, I'm sure that like the night before that, or maybe a night, like a couple days ago, she had been, quote, unquote, half asleep. And so, it all just clicked. And, that click, honestly, that was the snapping point for me, because, oh, I guess I was like the first snap. And, it was my entire life. I had covered for her to myself, but also to her friends, to her co-workers, to our neighbors, to my family. Dealing with that behavior, being mortified over it, taking the pains from it when she would be abusive. And, the whole time I had told myself she can't help it. It's not her fault. And, then I learned she can't help it. It was her fault. She knew that she hurt me when she was drinking. And, she made the choice to do it anyway. I really don't matter to her. And, the way that I can best describe it is, like, being beloved trash. You know, somebody wants you, or they need you, but you're still worthless. And, it just doesn't, it just didn't matter. It didn't matter how much she hurt me in my eyes. And, it was that sense of such a deep, profound betrayal. And, it was like that those 13 years leading up to that point. So, it wasn't just that one betrayal. It was like a betrayal of like 13 years. Every instance I could remember of being hurt or being embarrassed, or, you know, having to plead with her to stay at a family function because she didn't want to be there anymore because she was drunk, or she wanted to go get drunk, or whatever the case may be. So, you didn't see your drink up until that point. I mean, obviously you didn't even see your drink, right? I never did, okay. Like, I'd see her have like a glass of wine with dinner every now and then, but I'd never like seeing her just sit down and start chugging and get drunk as an aftermath. She definitely. You never thought that that was a problem until that point. Oh, yeah. She hit it. I mean, us addicts, we hide things so well. So, it's not like a big surprise. But, man, I bet you're the flashing of all of the things in your life. Yeah, it was just fucking so traumatic. Mm-hmm. You're talking about your life flash before your eyes. - Yes. - Like all of these situations, man. - Well, all the connections getting made and it's like, I literally, I'm sitting here and I can just like feel. I don't know, man, do you feel it, Travis? Like I just feel this conversation, man. Like I just feel it. - The mystery, man. - I'm sorry, in my bad. - I apologize. - Yeah. Yeah. (laughing) I know, well, I mean, I, how what, how fucking crazy is, how many, there's six wine bottles underneath the bench just clinking everywhere. Did you call her out about it? - I didn't. - Oh. - I was honestly like at that point, at this sense of betrayal was just like, oh, so you don't give a fuck about me. Then I'm not gonna give a fuck about you. - Oh. - And I, so like my mom, like I grew up with my mom saying this thing and it's like branded into my cerebral cortex. As she used to say that I was her mini me. I was half of her. And this, like I really, that's what I really felt like. Like I was half a person and she was my other half. And so you can imagine like, "Siamese twins," this is the other half of you and you absolutely hate them. You're terrified of them. And that's what it felt like. And it wasn't until I figured out she was an alcoholic that I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna cut you out and if I die, I die. - Right. - Like I don't care at this point. I will be a half a person to get you away from me. - How many times have you tried to commit suicide? - Up until that point twice. Once when I was six, once when I was 13. The one of when I was 13 was when, I think it was, yeah, it was before I found out she was an alcoholic. My mom had very strenuously pressured me into abandoning my friend group that I had made in my first year of middle school and wanted me to hang out with people who were more, I guess, because I hung out with the outcast, the goth kids, the emotes, you know? 'Cause I felt comfortable around them. We see eye to eye, you know? - Yeah, for sure. - She wanted me to find friends that were more, you know, like, normy. And so I left them and I started hanging out with, you know, going to church three times a week, say fire truck instead of fuck, kind of kids. And I always felt like an outcast, I was miserable. And finally, by the end of the year, I was like, you know what, I don't wanna do this anymore. Like these people, like they have accepted me to sit with them and they talk to me and the girls were actually really sweet and nice, but I just couldn't jive because-- - Couldn't not relate at all. - No, I'm fucking broken. - 100%. - And really, I think that's what it was, you know, is the fact that like we find so much comfort in other broken people when we are broken ourselves, you know? And like touching back on, when you realize that your mom was an alcoholic, like I can relate to that, you know, I remember, you know, going through a lot of drug raids and stuff when I was, you know, 11, 12 years old is like when like heavily drug raids and finding, you know, big ziplock, freezer bags full of methamphetamine and stuff, you know, finding all these things. And then like, as I got older, you know, I started looking back at my life and I was like, maybe they were doing drugs my whole life and I just thought they were, I just thought it was normal, you know, I never realized like how much of a chaotic childhood that I actually had because I just accepted it as something normal. And then once I got a little bit older, I realized that, I lived in a fucked up environment my whole life, you know? - Yeah. - And I think that's kind of what you're saying, you know, is the fact that when you've seen all those wine bottles, it was like an epiphany of like, you know, it's not just the fact that she was tired or that, you know, she can't put some type of blame on me, you know, you're realizing that, you know, her brokenness and you know, the alcoholism and like, it really starts to make you evaluate your life like, you know, has this been going on my whole life and I just didn't realize it or at least for myself, that's kind of what I experienced. And I imagine that's kind of what it was like for you. - Yep, it was definitely a, like I said, it was just a betrayal, but it's like that flash, life flashing before your eyes, but every single time, every memory that's coming up is just ingraining this understanding at the time that I was, I was a piece of beloved trash. Like, obviously, like you said you loved me, you don't love me, you need me, because you need someone to love you unconditionally. You don't give a fuck about me. You don't care how much you hurt me, as long as I keep providing whatever service you need me to provide for you. - Layers and layers of manipulation. - 100%. - Layers. - 100%. - I mean, then she got to you at the moment that you came out of the womb, you know? It was the moment, it was just like the whole manipulation of like, time, these twins and a piece of you. It helps feed her mom's narrative of the situation. It probably just made her feel better too about herself. - Absolutely. - Yeah, she just, it was, I mean, she even told me, 'cause I asked, she was single when she got pregnant with me. She was 32, and people had advised her against getting pregnant, 'cause she wasn't in a relationship. And she just wanted a baby so bad. And I remember my aunt telling me why she wanted a baby is 'cause she wanted someone to love her unconditionally. And to this day, sometimes I hear moms talking about their kids like that, and I'm sure they don't mean it in a toxic way. - She was just triggered. Like a motherfucker. - So fucking bad. 'Cause I'm like, you're just so fucking selfish. You just want that baby to love you. You do realize that being a mother means being unconditionally loving to the child. Like that's your job. And if they happen to love you back, you're fucking blessed. But for me, it was just the fact that my presence, my existence in that world up until that point was to serve her. And so when I was, like I said, when I was 13, we got into this fight after I distanced myself from that friend group that she wanted me to be involved in. And I remember asking her this question and she was stone cold sober. She wasn't angry. So she's like, she wasn't like talking out of anger. And I asked her, you know, do you, like would you love me if I wasn't your daughter? And she looked me right in the eye and she said no. And she left my room and I went and I grabbed a knife. So that was, I was just like, what's the point? What's the point being here anymore? If the other half of me doesn't even actually love me. I just love the position that I hold. - You grabbed a knife? - Yeah. My mom heavily believed that, you know, being a small girl, I should be walking around with a pocket knife at all times. So especially if I was going out at night alone. So she bought me a couple of like pen, like almost like pen knives are not even longer than my finger, but they're pocket knives. And she told me to carry one on me at all times when I left the house. And so I obviously had a couple of them. I had one in my room, went and grabbed it and just started going to town on my arm. - Just start, okay. And that became another probably addiction, right? - Yeah. - So you have a lot of scars? - Yeah. Well, not so much anymore, a lot of them have faded. You can still kind of see the ones on my, the inside of my arms and stuff like that. - I knew a lot of people that cut too and they would do them in places where, well, excuse me, if you're wearing a bikini, obviously you'll be able to see them, right? But like, you know, inner thigh and yeah. Wow. So, when did, when did some of the things start changing again? - So like after I found out she was in alcoholic and it's the downward spiral happened pretty fast up until that point. I had a vehement campaign again smoking. Just smoking in general. Like, you know the whole dare program and everything. I didn't even look at the drugs. I didn't even think about them. You know, I had self-mulation who needed drugs. - Right. - But the, my mom was a smoker. And so I would literally lecture her for like 30 minutes, 40 minutes on like, oh, so you just wanna dive cancer and leave me alone. And I would, she would leave the house or when she was on, you know, one of her weekend benches. I would rifle through the entire house. I would find her stashes cigarettes. I would break them in half and throw them in the trash. within a week of finding out she was in alcohol. I was smoking. Wow. Within I think a month I was smoking weed. I didn't start doing X to C until, you know, the next, that was in, I want to say, like, probably June maybe. And it wasn't until, I didn't start doing X to C until I met my co-defendant, which was in December. Got it. And that's the next step on the journey down to hell. So I started smoking weed, started going to high school. What age was this? 13. 13. And, you know, sneaking out at night, started with, there was this guy that I met in the summer before high school and he was kind of like my in to the outcast criminal drugie group in high school. And he burglarized houses at night. And so when he was like, hey, do you want to come out with me? I'm like, fuck yeah. Like, let's go. So. Yes, please. Yes, please. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You need me to hold something. What do you want me to do? So the supposed purpose of going and burglarizing the houses was to find alcohol. Never found any, but because most of the houses in the neighborhood I lived in, they had a second fridge out in their garage. So we never actually went into the houses, but we would go into their garages and we would rifle through their their fridge in the garage. And I knew that's where my mom kept her alcohol was in the garage. So I figured, oh, you know, other people should too. Like I said, I never found any, but so did that for a couple of months, getting high, you know, breaking plenty of laws, always out past curfew, got to a point where I would just go to sleep with my street clothes on just so I could wake up at midnight or one o'clock in the morning and bounce. Just get on with it. What was the fact when you start smoking weed? Was it like a reed leaf? Because I know for me myself, I spoke weed and I was fucking petrified. But I mean, alcohol on other hand, that was like, you know, I felt that heat, you know, that warmth and I was like, woof, but weed, I mean, I was crawling my skin. What was it like for you though, I mean, being 13 and having all of these things happen to you in your life? You know, funnily enough, you know, just just my luck. The first time I ever smoked weed, I didn't feel thing. I smoked more than everybody else. I kept taking hits. Right. Nothing. That's really normal though. Yeah. And that's just kind of like set off this persona that as long as I kept doing the things that the other people around me were doing, as I had this at the, it was totally unconscious, but it was, if I mirror you exactly, you will have no reason to reject me because I am you. And so I was a chameleon and those are the people I wanted to hang around so those are who I became. And so using drugs, I never used a, I never smoked weed by myself. Never drank by myself. It was always something that I did to be accepted by the people that I wanted to be accepted by was basically a manipulation tactic. I didn't really start getting anything out of doing drugs until I started doing ecstasy and then way later, cocaine. Right. Did you realize how broken you were during this time or was it just you just hanging out with people and drinking and doing drugs just like a social thing? Did you realize that you were broken and that was part of like, oh yeah. I, I used to have this view of myself as an entirely subhuman. Like I wasn't, I did not, that makes sense. My self is like a human being. Like I don't, I didn't know what was wrong with me, but I just knew that I wasn't like anybody else. I, and not like in it, you know, yeah, unique way it was, I'm, I am a creature from the depths of hell. But, and not to mention your mother, she painted that picture really well for you to believe. Yeah. I mean, she, and that's the, and that was the thing about my mom is that when she wasn't, when she wasn't on drugs and she wasn't raging and she wasn't in her bipolar moments, she really did try her hardest to be a good mom. She did instill in me some really good values, like things to, to hold in high esteem, like getting an education and things like that. And she, it was really strange. So now that, you know, I'm an adult and I've taken plenty of courses in college and read lots of books. It's actually called complex PTSD. So what happens is when someone is a, immersed in an environment where they receive equal amounts of trauma and loving, love or comfort from the same person. And it's going back without any kind of consistent application. And that's what it was like with my mom. There were times where she was just this amazing person and there are still things today that I, that I admire about her. I mean, she was an incredibly, she obviously it was extremely sick and in some ways she had a lot of weaknesses, but there were other areas. She's extremely strong. I mean, she put herself through college. She had a master's degree in mechanical engineering from Cal Poly. She's extremely intelligent to this day. I remember the first lecture she ever gave me on the theory of heat dispersion in the first grade. Like, she did things and she was a person when she was good. She was, she was a great person. I like the fact that you could acknowledge, you know, you can acknowledge all the good that she was, that she did for you as well and not just point out the flaws. Because us as individuals, especially if we came from trauma, it's so easy for us to get caught up on all the trauma, you know. And it sounds like you've done a lot of work on yourself too, where you're able to view her obviously as a broken human, but flawed, but still very smart, you know, and was there for you at times. I clearly, you know, that's where you get it from, right? You see, you don't, well, you don't know your dad. But the fact of the matter is, Ram seems like she was a pretty intelligent woman. We were looking at you wrote a freaking book, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, me and Dustin can't write. Yeah, I'm going to tell you that, right? I mean, I can barely read a book. So, I mean, so keep on going. Keep on going. We're good. We just got to, we just got to shut up over here because you're good. So as I'm going through high school, you know, I'm, you know, fucking up left and right, even campus to go smoke and just during the lunch and stuff like that. And that's not allowed at the high school. I was at when they actually enforced it. So I actually got expelled for my, in like the middle of my first semester for bartering prescription meds on campus, which was actually not as bad as it sounds. It was much as the shit I was doing. It was, it was nothing. I had, I had nappersen in my backpack because I had busted my knee and one of my friends swore that it was not nappersen. Like it was some kind of narcotic and he wanted to trade me some cigarettes for it. And I'm like, yeah, sure. Why not? I'm not going to tell you you're wrong. What is nappersen? It's like an ad, it's like an ad bill. Yeah, it's like an approximate. It's an anti-inflammatory. Yeah, no, it's exactly why I do not know what it is. Yeah, it's no narcotic effect whatsoever. I only know just because I was a pillhead and I would try to get high off anything and everything. I probably even shot that shit. Don't tell me I caught up shooting that shit. Yeah. What are you getting loaded on? Nappersen, motherfucker. Shoot it right here. Last headache. Totally. Yeah. So. So you're a drug dealer. Perfect. Yep. And got caught coming back on campus after smoking. My friend, quote, unquote, ratted me out to the assistant principal. Got expelled for the rest of the semester. Checks out. Yep. Someone always telling. Yeah. Um. Lips, sink, sink, ship, smother fuckers. God damn it. Let's see, I told you I was going to get the mumble maltersen. But it was actually ended up being a good thing for me. I ended up going to like independent study. And, you know, I had this policy that if I was going to go to school for eight plus hours a day, I was not going to do four more hours of homework. I refused. I felt like if you're an adult and you don't have to work that much, why do I have to work that much of it as a kid? I'm either going to do my homework and not go to school or I'm going to go to school and not do my homework. If I'm in school and I'm sitting in class, I will do all of my homework in class and I'd get A's. But the second I leave campus, I'm not doing more school. So going into independent study, it was nothing but homework. They would just give you the book, tell you the assignments and go. And I got A's on everything and I went so far in one of my classes I completely finished out the rest of the year. So by the time I went back for my second semester, I had one less class which really didn't serve me any because it just meant that I could go fuck around when I probably should have been in school. But to back up a little bit in December is when I met my future co-defendant. I had heard about him a lot. He was in college but he had been a part of my friend group the year previously. He had been senior. And a lot of people had told me about him. A lot of people had just, you know, like, oh, you got to meet him. They called him Boston. I was in his real name, his nickname. But he's like, oh, you got to meet Boston. You know, you love him. But I had like a kind of like a mini vendetta against him because my best friend at the time, his real name was Matt but his nickname was God. And he was also a drug dealer. So that fits. The fact that his fucking nickname is God. God, what a fucking loser. I mean, he didn't call himself that. But everybody did. Yes. Well, as himself, as a man, he should be like, listen, listen, guys, I appreciate that. You know, you call me Jesus. But God's a little bit too much. Like, this nickname is God. I could just imagine that you just wearing all black. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's fucking assistant manager at Hot Topic. Drug dealer on the side. Yeah. No, but he was, he had his own, you know, huge trial of shit that he went through to. Like his childhood was pretty, his, how he came to be, I guess, was pretty fucked up too. So he had his all of his own pain. Sure. That's why we, we jived. Yeah. You fell in love. Kind of. Yeah. And so he was like my best friend at the time. And so he and Boston had dated at one point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. I'm going to sit this one out. Can you explain? Well, I mean, yeah, I mean Boston was by God was gay. Okay. Yeah, I just add to the, to the twist. To the level of God. Yes, yes, absolutely. God damn. And so it was in the year previous to that. And so they had gotten together on God's birthday and then Boston broke up with him on, or no, I'm gotten together on Valentine's Day and then he broke up with God on God's birthday. And so he never said anything, but the way that he would talk about it, I knew that he still, it still hurt him and he still had like a thing for Boston. Sure. So, you know, being the good friend that I was, I automatically hate Boston. Sure. Um, until I met him for the first time, I was, um, so my town was, you know, pretty small. We have a town center. And like that's where the movie theater is. That's where all the shops are, you know, that's where the coffee shop that all the goth kids hung out in and I was a goth kid. So, um, we, I was there and I was hanging out with a friend of mine, two friends of mine. And we'd been smoking weed and stuff like that and my mom was supposed to come pick me up and around, like so around 13 her alcoholism started getting bad again. And so by this time, when she came to pick me up, as soon as I opened the door, I knew she was drunk and she was supposed to be driving, not just me, but me and my friend home because you're supposed to be staying the night at my house. And I'd already had more than one account of getting in the car with her not realizing she was drunk with a friend and then her driving crazy. And I'd had to drive the car, you know, multiple times home for her. And so just opening the door, realizing she was drunk, I was like, yeah, no, I'm not getting in the car. He's not getting in the car. I know, like you can fuck my life up. Let's go. Let's die. But we're not going to kill Brent. So, um, I asked her, you know, again, not even addressing it because we don't do that in alcoholic families. We don't call people on the shit. I just asked her if I could stay later and, um, I said, you know, Brett's dad's coming home from work. He can drop us off at home on his way back. And so she said, okay, she left stayed smoke some more weed. And as we're sitting in the back of this coffee shop that was called habit, funnily enough, this guy walks in, you know, and he walks up to the counter. Brett gets up and says, Boston, you know, goes over, gives him a hug. And I'm like, ah, you're Boston. I hate you, you know, um, however, I am, you know, being the, uh, well equipped by this time, now 14 year old that I am, I have a bunch of lighters. And this is so sad. Um, I have really small soft hands. This has not changed. Child safety locks on lock on fucking lighters. I used to rip up my thumbs. Okay. So I had six of them, because, you know, stolen and I was trying to light one of my cigarettes. I went to go bum one off of him because I may hate you, but I'm still going to ask you for cigarette. Um, and I couldn't light my lighter. So he went and he just, you know, flipped out his pocket knife, flipped all of them off. And I was like, okay, maybe you're, you're kind of cool. Right. Ask him if he wanted to go smoke some weed with us. We went, we smoked some weed and it up talking for maybe 45 minutes straight. It was like, okay, this plus also being high. Maybe you're not so bad. Dad's, uh, Brett's dad got a call to say that he's not going to be able to come home from work until like one o'clock in the morning. It's already past 11 and there is a curfew in my town. You can't be out past 11. I had. Yeah. Wow. And they enforce it. There's only two main roads in my town and one of them goes past the cop station. So what would happen if you get, if you get caught, uh, they will drive you home, give you citation and the fucking government is so wild to me, dude. There's places that are still like, it's like, is this communist or not wild? Well, um, if I want to stay past 11 30 and smoke fucking weed in my golf clothes, I'm going to do that. And subscribe to the audience, dude, what does Boston look like? I'm sure we all, we all have a picture of what goth people look like, but just go, please, let's let them know what he looked like. Well, actually, he was not, he did not look like a characteristic goth kid. Yeah, whatever. That's not funny. Yeah, well, I mean, blonde hair, blue eyed, uh, slender, probably like maybe I'm going to say six two. Oh, wow. Six six six two. Maybe I mean, I might have been a lot shorter than Noah's very tall. Um, but he also dressed in like trip pants trench coat, you know, trench coat. Damn, yeah, bang, nailed it. I mean, I still, I'm still looking forward to the day I can afford a trench coat because that was like my safety blanket growing up. I want another one. All right. Um, but so you're still got that heart. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Not too email. I can't get down with the eminus too much anymore. No. Yeah, I don't hate life. I'm pretty happy about it now. Um, but so I didn't have anybody to come pick us up. We can't walk home. It's like five miles. It wouldn't have been a big deal. But I had previously just gotten a citation for being out past curfew a couple months before that. So I really didn't want to get picked up by the cops again. It's like I said, there's no avoiding it when you walk home on a main road for at least like three miles of it. And so I, you know, turned to dude with the car Boston. Boston. All right. I asked him, he was like, Hey, look, I know I don't know you, but I have no way of getting home. Can you, can you give us a lift home? And he said, yeah, absolutely. So he gave us a lift home and that just that was the beginning of the end, you know, the next week. He was at habit again, asked for my phone number, gave it to him. And we just started texting, hanging out once a week. turn to, you know, Saturdays and Sundays and then. - Give it a timeline real quick because I'm gonna say something. So how old were you? - 14. - How old was he? - 19. - There's a fucking line in the sand, man. - Yeah. - And, you know, there's a lot of things like going on in this little motorcycle community, I shouldn't say little big, right? But there's this, you know, a case that was brought up of somebody doing some things like 11 years, or he's painting this picture, but the fact of the matter, he's a convicted childmester. That's as charged as you played guilty to it. And I've been, there's been a few people that have reached out to me and I just keep saying the same thing. There's a fucking line in the sand. When I turned 18, I knew that I couldn't have fucking date that 17-year-old, even I went to high school. It's just like, it's instilled. You know, it's just, there's a fucking line in the sand. And a 19-year-old should not be dating 14-year-olds. - Yeah, I defended it. I defended him. - I'm sure you did. - And I didn't get it until I was 20, and I was, yeah, in prison. And somebody asked me, they're like, so he was 19. I said, yeah, he was like, you were 14. I'm like, yeah, and they're like, okay, so how would you feel about dating a 15-year-old little boy right now? And I'm like, that's disgusting. That's disgusting. Oh my God. Like hit me that realization. I'm like, what the fuck was he thinking? How, you know, like, I don't understand. Because who in their right mind when you're 19 and he had other girls that were appropriately aged. And let's just say, like, they had feminine bodies. I didn't. That wanted him, that wanted to be with him. Like, why would you pass up that to be a 14-year-old little girl, you know? - Yeah. - And I just-- - So you start, he starts texting you and obviously you're okay with it. - Yeah, yeah. I am, you know, obviously every younger girl likes older guys. That's the downfall for a lot of teenage girls. And I, so we started texting, started hanging out, whenever I would go to town center, because town center was like a weekly thing. - Sure. - And at one point, like, I was just telling him everything. - Travis is flipping through her book. It's fucking massive, you guys. - It's a fucking encyclopedia. - Yeah, so let's just stop real quick. The book's called Broken. CM Wolf wrote it. Where can they find this book at? - It's on Amazon. It's also available at Barnes & Noble. - Perfect. - And the fact that I can't smoke in this studio is bullshit. (laughing) - So when you look up CM Wolf, will it tell the story of what happened till you get it getting to prison? - No. - So what's the reason behind that, if you don't mind me asking? - I changed my name. So my birth name was Tyler Witt. - So if you look up Tyler Witt, I see the story of incident. - Yep, everything. - Okay. - Yeah, and there's lots to look at. - What's the purpose of changing your name if you're so, if you're okay with like, saying? - Well, the biggest thing, like I wanted it to change it before I got out of prison. And that was mostly because I don't have a problem sharing my story. - Sure. - And what I do have a concern about is like going and trying to get a job. - Absolutely. - And on my resume, you know, they Google my name or they look me up and that's the first thing that they see. - Yeah, okay, that makes sense. Red flag, got it. I mean, okay, well that makes sense. Well, I mean, it's two identities really. Let's be honest. That person is the past life. This is the new life. - And that was the other reason. - But the thing of the day, your old life is always going to be with you. - I do think it's important for the listeners though, to know who she was. - Oh, for sure. - To be able to, if they want, you know, look that up, you know, 'cause it is a very interesting story. - I love, we have given these guys an hour of cliffhangers this far of saying prison and what, and they haven't even seen it. - We've been on here for an hour to be honest. - I know, it's fucking gold. And I think it's great because everybody's like, "Just probably, what the fuck?" You know what I mean? No, no, no, no, not yet. - Yeah. - You know, fucking degenerates. - Well, now that they know my real name, they've probably already Googled it. - Shit, fucking Travis. - No, no, no, that's good. That's going to hold them on even longer. - Yeah, it doesn't matter. You can read whatever you want. You're going to hear the real shit right now. - Yeah. - So, the relationship started with you guys. Did you, I mean, you became boyfriend or girlfriend? - Yeah, eventually. So, what happened is he's, I was buying my smokes off of him. And so he had come to my house to give me smokes like once before that. Once, it was probably like in January. Like, between the middle, beginning of December and January. And at the time, I had a boyfriend that, so it was kind of a weird relationship. Like, I was confiding in him a lot. Like, more than I had anybody else in my life. And he was listening to me like I felt like nobody had ever listened to me before. And one day, I had a absolutely horrible, like, knockdown dragout fight with my mom, showed up at school, like crying my eyes out, kind of thing. And I texted him and I said, hey, I don't need smokes. I just need somebody to talk to. Like, can you come by my house tonight, please? And he showed up as to sat in his car for about, I want to say, this is awesome, right? - Yeah. - Okay. - For hours. And I just talked about everything. And that was really the beginning of making him my higher power. Because I just handed him my life. - Right. - I asked him, like, what do I do from here? What do I do? And, you know, he helped me work it out. - Okay. - And that-- - Let me ask you real quick, too. So with all the trauma and all these things that happened to you in life, did you have a lot of boyfriend? Did you start having sex at an early age or was that not in the picture? Because I know for some, it happens right away. - I had had a lot of, if you want a column boyfriend, I flirted a lot. I was a huge flirt. - Got it. - And, like, I would flirt with a guy and then he'd ask me to be his girlfriend. And then, like, a week later, I'd want to go flirt with another guy. And I felt like one of my quote unquote rules was like, "Oh, if you want to go flirt with another guy, obviously you're not with the right guy, so you should probably break up with him." - Sure. - Because, you know, don't be a cheater. - Sure. - So that's what I would do. - Okay. - If you lasted two weeks, you know, that was victory. - All right. - But, and the only reason why I was with my boyfriend at that time when I met Boston was. - You're flirting. - Well, the reason why I was with him, but that boyfriend for so long, 'cause up until the time I broke up with him, I was with him, I think, for three months, was because two of those months he was in Juve. - Okay. - Perfect. - You know? - That'll hold a relationship together, absolutely. - Yeah, absolutely. - That's probably one of the best ones he ever had. - So, as we started getting more emotionally connected, and then he knew I had a boyfriend, and there were. Oh, to answer your question, no, up until that point, I hadn't had sex yet. - Wow. Good for you. - I mean, I'm serious. I mean, even the trauma and all of the things that has happened to you to hold on to something like that, especially. Especially, I'm such a idiot. - Especially. Fuck, I say, especially. - What kind of language is that, Trams? - No, okay. Anyways. You know, especially that you would just. I would think for myself, it was like I started really young too, and it was like that needed to be loved and wanting to have companionship, which I didn't even understand that word yet. And I guess just trying to think if that was something that was relatable with you, but clearly not. I mean, even though at 14, probably, I'm assuming, that's when it happened. - Yeah. - So, it's still really young. - Yep. - I can't even imagine that's when I lost my virginity too. And I see 14-year-olds today that are still playing in the streets with their kids. - Yeah. - And not even having the life that we had. - No. - Which is fucking awesome. - I know that. - I know there's some kids that are not. There's a lot of kids that are just like us. And doing all these wrong things at such a early age. Stuntting our growth. - Oh, yeah. - Killing our spirits. You know, just done. - All right, well then answer that. - Yeah. - Until like, as we started, and I started coming to pen on him. more and more like I said like he started becoming my higher power. I just kind of will like hand my life over to him whenever anything like negative would happen and I would just be having a meltdown. Because I had I was undiagnosed at the time but I had anxiety and depression. So anytime I was feeling overwhelmed and like overwhelmed for me looked like going kind of crazy. Like crying uncontrollably, just having panic attacks. I was going to say probably a lot like your mother. Yeah, right? We're familiar. That's what you know. Yeah, just flipping out. Right. And I would just bring all of that to him and I would completely like just emotionally throw up all over him and he would just you know take it in, put the pieces together, hand it back to me and say here. Using him like a drug. Yep. That's exactly what you were doing. Yep. And by the time you know is after February, after Valentine's Day, my boyfriend at the time got out of Jouvi. And he and I had an agreement that he wasn't going to use drugs anymore because you know he'd go back to Jouvi. But I told him like hey if you're going to use just let me know so that way if you disappear like I know where you went. And I got in trouble for something I don't even remember what but my mom grounded me. I wasn't able to go to town center that weekend or that Friday. And by this time my mom's met Boston and she adores him. You know she put him in the big brother role in my life. Did she know that you guys were dating? No. We'll up until that time we weren't. Right okay but so you're just friends. But she never was weird about him being 19 and 14. No. I mean and it wasn't just him you know like later on people like oh well he manipulated her he did this. I'm like no I had other friends who were 18 and I remember there's this one guy that I had been hanging out with a lot and I asked him how she was. I asked her how she would feel about me like dating him and she's like well I would want to get to know him a little bit better but other than that I don't see a problem with it. You know I don't I don't know what her mentality was behind that so I can't really tell you. But you know she like he was kind of like sit down for family dinners like that that kind of inclusion in our family unit by that time. But he was also the one that would come and pick me up when my mom was drunk. So when my mom would you know be drunk and she'd start getting violent I would call him he would come get me and I go hang out in his car for you know four hours or there are a couple of times where I went and I slept at his house. And my mom is she got to the point where she would call him if she didn't know where I was in the morning and then she just kind of stopped asking because she knew if I was with him she knew why I was with him. So again we're never talking about this we're not going to talk about the reason why I had to leave in the middle of the night. Just that just straight minimizing it. Yeah just that of Boston's cleaning up my mass Boston's taking care of her you know and she she adored him for it and he's also the only person to physically put himself between my mom and a drunk and rage in me. And so again that just adds to the whole like you're my savior you're my higher power you know the way that I viewed him. And so that weekend you know he was going to come over for family dinner and I was grounded I couldn't go to town center to see my boyfriend and then so he comes over he sees me or Boston comes over sees me for like 30 minutes. He goes to town center because he's going to go hang out with some of his friends and then come back he ends up coming back maybe about a half hour later and he tells me you know oh your your boyfriend is doing drugs. Obviously you know broke my whole heart you know I can't believe he lied to me all that other stuff and so I go he convinces my mom to let me go break up with dude I go break up with dude. And what was it like two days later we're sitting in Boston's car and he asked me to be his girlfriend straight manipulator it was Boston doing drugs at all. Oh yeah he was he was a was your ex-boyfriend now doing drugs or was that a lie for Boston to start dating you both both I didn't find this out until I was in Juve later. Because you know he ended up going to Juve and I met him and we were talking he was like hey by the way did you know. Boston's the one that sold me those drugs that night. I said what. I come to find out Boston went to town center specifically with the purpose of finding him to sell him drugs to come back and tell me that he was doing drugs. And when he came back and he told me he said that he I was like how do you know he said well Graham is the one which is another one of our friends Graham is the one that sold him the drugs. So you know lots of lots of manipulation you know to the core. So we ended up you know we started dating and we you know that was on February 23rd. And then like within two weeks we started having sex you know obviously if I'm sure there are plenty of women I don't know how it is with guys but the person you lose your virginity to if it is in a relationship that just piles on the like the obsession. And so it was that that was it you know sealed sealed for for forever. I mean that yeah no matter what I mean everybody can relate they all remember who their first person that they were been with was. No but I listen I can totally relate with that I mean but I mean I can't relate with the way women feel but I can I can assure you I can understand being 14 years old. And you know that happening to you and losing virginity I'm sure that you're pretty stuck like Chuck you're probably you're already thought of him as a higher power and that was just sealed the deal. What a fucking Boston man Boston fucking pedophile and a fucking manipulator go figure. Yeah. All right. Do you still talk to Boston? I do not. When was the last time you were in contact with him? About five years after I got arrested. I can tell you that tell you talk about that more because there's like a whole story behind that. Like I feel like I should apologize but you did say you know like I'm I it's a lot. It is a lot. I know you're dating within I say do you remember the fact that she can remember dates like I know is insane. Well she's still young she's 29. I can't remember what I did last. Well the court process kind of has a way of like branding those dates into you. Right. But that's a mention like you have to when you go through the process of trying to get out of prison you have to remember those things. And then when you're in prison rehabilitated process you do like timelines a lot as a part of your recovery. So let's see I can't remember if I think about it backwards. So he was he started living with us. My mom rented out one of our the rooms in our house to him. And you know he just took on full this sounds so fucked up but he took on full dad mode in my life. My mom just kind of handed over her parental responsibilities to him and he picked him up. Right even though you guys were having sex your mom had no idea. Correct. So that's why she was like okay this guy's a really good guy he's really taking care of my daughter. Yep. Do you think it really would have mattered? I did matter I did it up mattering. Okay so we'll get there. Yeah. So I mean like when I say dad mode I mean like he took me to school every day he picked me up from school every day. He checked my homework he met with my teachers for parent parent teacher conferences. He was on my emergency contact card at school to come pick me up when I was sick. He was regulating my drug intake. He was a he was a reason why I stopped cutting. You know parent. Right. Yeah. And so he had been living with us for about a month when my mom found out we were having sex. And her response to that was, you know, sane. That was sane mom response. Get out of my house. You're never seeing my daughter again. My response to that was the only person that makes my life bearable is now getting, you know, cut off from my life because of the person that I hate the most. Yeah, absolutely. And the only way, and the very first thing I did was, you know, she had him come over that next, I think was the next day or that weekend to come get all of his shit. And she sat him down with two of her co-workers, male co-workers and basically told him, you're never going to talk to her again, you're never going to see her again. And as long as you don't have any more contact with my daughter, I won't press charges on you for statutory rate. When I heard that conversation, I went up to my room, I packed my bags and I left. And I went to this place that we usually hung out, you know, go figure, emo goth, it was a graveyard. And obviously Boston knew exactly where to find me. So my mom, when she realized I was gone, sent him to go find me and bring me home. So even though she said, don't see, she got it. Yeah. Because she knew she's, there was, there was, she knew she was never going to get me to come home. She had already, she had already come to depend on him to take care of me so much up to that point that, you know, turning to him and saying, well, you know, go get her. So he found me and I told him, you know, I cannot live without you. I can't do this without you. Like I said, my mom's alcoholism was starting to get bad again. And it wasn't just alcohol, alcoholism at that point, she's also, you know, abusing her prescription meds with that, both her psych meds and pain meds. And that's a cocktail right there. So she's probably just all over the place. And when you're coming down, yeah, psycho. That's how my mom was. And then she obviously, she's using her psych meds when she's not supposed to, which means she doesn't have them when she would need them. Need them, yeah, right. Right. So, but I told him, I can't do this. I can't do this without you, you know, and I told him, you know, we always joke about being Romeo and Juliet, but which is hopefully we had a different ending. Well, maybe we're not supposed to. You know, maybe like we should just kill ourselves because that way we can be together for all of eternity. And we don't have to worry about anybody else getting in the way. And his response to that was that should be an absolute last resort. Not what's going on guys, Dustin with the LFG 1904 show proud to announce our partnership with law tigers. If you have been in a motorcycle accident, let's get you the compensation you deserve today and get you back on the road. Go ahead and call this number 858 306. 1986. Once again, that number is 858 306 1986. Law Tigers nationwide. Doesn't matter where you're at. Call that number. LFG. No, that's a horrible idea. That was it's a last resort. It's still on the table, but you know, just wait, you know, we'll run away together. It's going on guys. 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I, like she would come into my room in the middle of the night and she would just start screaming at me. And, you know, half the time she put her hands on me. I got into shoving matches with her and it would just get to a point where I'd be screaming at her bagging her ditch to leave me alone. More than one time, I would have to run past her into my bathroom because it was the only door with a lock to lock the doors to keep her away from me so I could sleep on the floor. And I threatened her with a knife more than once, my little pen knife to leave me alone, just so I could sleep. And I started using drugs a lot more heavily instead of just, you know, doing them when they were around. Now it was like, you know, it just so happened like I didn't have a plan. It was people calling me and saying, hey, you know, we're going out to go smoke some weed. Do you want to come with? Yes. We're going to go do some xcd. Do you want to get? Yes. You know, before it was just like, you know, whatever. You know, if it happens, it happens if it doesn't, it doesn't. And like at that point, it was just, now I want to get loaded. And that and then the times that I could steal away to go see Boston under my mom's nose were like the only thing that was, I wouldn't say keeping me sane because it definitely wasn't sane. But it was the only thing keeping me together. But a month of that, my mom, or like a week into that month, my mom couldn't get in contact with me. I was at a friend's house. I didn't have any cell service. I wasn't where I was supposed to be. I wasn't. I lied to her. I told her I was going to somewhere else. And she couldn't get a hold of me. So when she couldn't find me, she called the cops. She thought that Boston and I had run off together and ended up calling her, getting her messages, called her back, told her where I was. Cops came and got me. And that was when she, because she thought we had run off together, reported him for statutory rape. So the next three weeks were interviews with detectives, me and him, both of us saying, yeah, no, we're not in a sexual relationship. She's crazy. She's a drunk. She doesn't know what she's talking about. Yada, yada, yada, denying it. Full-run. Um, in June, second week of June, is when my mom called the police over and she told me, you know, this is your last chance to tell them the truth. They said, okay, you know, it came to the house, told them the same, same thing I always did. No, not in a sexual relationship with him. No, we've never had sex. No, no, no, no, no. Didn't know it, but my mom had actually gone through my backpack and found my diary. Read it, which, you know, pretty much read like a porno when it came to my sex life. It was very detailed, because I'm a writer. Sure. Um, and she turned that over to the police when she heard me and that I was still lying. And I still not telling the truth. She was like, okay, well, if you're not going to tell the truth, then this is. So she handed that over to the police after I was done, quote, unquote, interviewing with them. She didn't tell me about it till the next day. She went to come pick me up from summer school. And when she dropped me off the house, she told me. And I lost my mind. The invasion of privacy didn't even register. The first thing my mind went to was they're going to arrest him. I'm going to lose him. He's going to prison. And I just, I just started screaming at her completely and go here. I don't, I don't remember formed words coming out of my mouth. I just completely lost my shit. And I remember her looking at me just with this disgusted look on her face and she just said, what is wrong with you? And then left. She went back to work. And I, first thing she did is she was, you know, out called Boston. tried to tell him what was going on, again, wasn't making any sense, formed words were not coming out of my mouth until finally, you know, went outside pacing, smoked cigarette, come calm down enough to get words out. He still didn't quite understand what I was saying, but he knew that something had happened. So he just told me, hold on, try to calm down, I'm gonna come to the house right now. And so I really wasn't able to calm down, I ended up, you know, hyperventilating myself into a blackout, 'cause that's what happens with my panic attacks. And he, but when I kind of woke up, I came to, he was in the house and he was asking me, you know, what happened, what's wrong? So I told him what happened and, you know, obviously this hits him, you know, she's going to prison. You know, when 14, 19 year old, very dramatic, the statutory rape with a consenting 14 year old, even in, you know, upper white middle class, probably we would have gotten some jail time how to register as a sex offender, but he wouldn't have gotten a prison most likely. But. - I mean, he might even just got probation, really. - Yeah. - Yeah. - It's like California, you can call the suckers. - Pretty much. - Yeah, but still, it's a awful fucking charge to have in your child molester. So. - Yeah. - So what? - I'm here, I'm here. - So. - I'm here, right? (laughing) - So, we start trying to talk, try to figure things out and I just keep telling him, yeah, I can't, I can't do this. You know, I, same thing from a month ago, like I can't, I cannot do this. I cannot live with her without you. Oh, I can't do this alone. Again, I can't. - So at this point, you probably think your life's over. - Yeah. - You know, going through your young mind. And didn't help, like, obviously higher power, my entire future that I've thought of for the last, you know, six months is completely built up around him. So we go into the office, which is downstairs, it's next to the garage, so that way we could hear if she comes home early. Again, and we start talking and I'm like, okay, so we don't have any more time to run. So can we, can we kill ourselves? Like the plan was, 'cause this is the last resort. You wanna talk about last resort, that that's the last resort we're here. And he was hesitant and I pushed him because I didn't, I didn't see another way. And obviously I'd been suicidal for since I was six. So it's not like it was a new solution, quote, like for me. - For sure. - If you wanna weigh out, that's the way to do it. And, so he's like, okay, you know, finally agreed, he's like, okay, but, you know, when, where, how? And I was like, okay, well, if we wanna be together for all eternity, this is how we have to do it. Okay, well, I'm, first of all, 14, so I can all have been living in my head, dissociated, living in like fantasy versions of reality, to cope with my reality for all of my life. And then tie into that, like it almost a year of drug use, you know, you know, you just, you know, but I believed that if we died in a certain place where we didn't have any bad memories, that would tie us, our souls there after we were dead. And if we died on our anniversary, then we would be together for all eternity, like past death. So it was the Thursday, our anniversary was that Monday. And anniversary, like what, you guys, do you have for like three months, right? Six. Yeah. Yeah, so much more. I know. I mean, I'm not trying to minimize, I'm just trying to get the picture here. So, six months together and that's the anniversary, okay. Yeah, so. It's very, it's very childish, like, okay, this is our anniversary. Yes. Yeah, extremely. It's such a 14 year old. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, so we, and he is like, okay, well, how are we going to kill ourselves? And I'm like, rap poison, the easiest thing to get a hold of, you know, has arsenic in it. It'll kill you, which it won't, by the way. But that's what I thought. And I'm like, okay, well, he's like, well, where are we supposed to kill ourselves? Like, if we can't, we can't do it in Elder Rode Hills, obviously, because we both have bad memories here. Like, well, the only places I've ever been to before in my life, where I haven't had bad memories are San Francisco and Salem, Massachusetts. He was like, well, we're not crossing the country. So we decide on San Francisco. And so we have to kill ourselves on Monday. And this is what's going on in my brain. You know, oh, so we can't, if we leave today to kill ourselves on Monday, the cops will find us before we're able to kill ourselves on Monday. But if we don't like that, that evidence was enough that they're probably going to issue a warrant for you within the next 48 hours. So you're going to get locked up. So we have to leave now, but we can't leave now, because that will give them too much time to find us before we're actually able to. At this point, I'm kind of-- So at this point, your mom already handed over the journal to the police. How come they didn't go get his ass right away? I don't know. Interesting. I don't know. Did she really do that? Yeah. OK. Yeah. Because I know later on in this story, that gets out, but I was just curious. Maybe she was just doing another scare tactic, manipulate to get you worked up or something. Nope. She-- That's really fucking nuts that these fucking guys didn't go pick his ass up right away. Because that seems odd to me. Carry on. Carry on, sister. So-- That's how fucking my brain works. Yeah. Fucking hamster will. That's right. So this is the conundrum. So we have to leave now, but we can't leave now. Got it. But if we leave in time so that way, they don't arrest you, how else can we make sure that they don't find us before Monday? Well, he's 19. He is an adult. He can go anywhere he wants. And nobody can really say shit about it. The only person who's going to stop me from leaving is my mom. So how can we make sure that she doesn't call the cops? As soon as she realizes that I'm gone. And to this day, I do not remember who said the idea first. But I have just settled it with myself that it came from me just because even if he was the first one to say it, I was the one to agree with it. And he, at that point, we thought we heard something from the garage. He goes, I go to go check it out. I come back. Didn't even realize he had it until that point come back through the office door. And he comes out from behind it with a katana raised above his head. That sounds really weird. But he collected katanas and other knives and sharp implements. So-- I mean, it's not too far-fetched. We get it. So I jolted back and I asked him, what are you doing? And he was like, oh, I thought you were your mom. And I don't know if that gave him the idea or if that gave me the idea. But from that point, it was the way that we're going to stop my mom from telling anybody that we've left to go commit suicide is to kill her. And we stayed in the office and we worked out what we were going to do. We were going to do it the next night, Friday night. And how we were going to do it and what we're going to do afterwards. So the plan was I was supposed to take one of her meds. I was going to drug her with it. And then he was going to come over and we would kill her together. And then we would leave and go to San Francisco, stay hold up in a hotel or motel or whatever for a couple days. And then on Monday morning at the time that we had gotten together, we were going to kill ourselves. And so he leaves. And the next couple hours for me are complete blank. The next thing I remember is my mom coming home, apologizing to me for turning over my diary and me telling her I understood. And that she was just trying to be a good mom. And it's so crazy to me because in light of what I was planning, you would think that I would just hate her. I would be whatever. She was the bane of my existence, something. But I genuinely-- It was like two completely different personalities, or two completely different mindsets. I did understand why she was doing what she was doing. She was actually trying to be a good mom. But for me, it was killing me. And so, you know, we went to the store. I didn't even realize she bought some alcohol. She got me some cake. And came home. I, as she went upstairs, I played video games till about 10. Walked up the stairs. And up until this point, my mom had been telling me that she was going to be sober. You know, she was going to stop drinking. It was also during that month that I finally started calling her out every time. I just tell her she was drunk. And I treated her like a piece of crap. So when I walked up the stairs, I saw her TV on. And I know she never leaves TV on, unless she's drunk. I poked my head in the room. And I saw the glass on her nightstand. Just a double check. I went over. I smelled it. It was alcohol. And everything in me got triggered. It wasn't until that moment that now I was mad. Now is angry. Because up until that, I was in a panic. I was scared. I was doing what in my twisted mind I thought I had to do for me to be OK. But at that moment, that's when I got angry. And it was-- I went right into my room. I called Boston. I started going off about how she was drunk. And then I-- no, I was the one that said, well, we're not going to get a better chance in this. She's drunk now. She might not be drunk tomorrow. So why don't we do it tonight? So it was my job to drug her. So he told me, go down. Stairs-- or you didn't tell me, but so you're going to do this. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do it. So I went-- back downstairs, I went through the medicine cabinet, tried to find the viket in that I knew that she had been using, couldn't find it, tried looking at all the other pill bottles. They were all empty. That's a big surprise. And so again, 14-year-old-- mind, to this day, I can't explain it. I went and I got a vitamin. This is the only thing that was actually in a bottle. Chopped it in half, ground it up, put it in her glass. And the only thing that I can say to explain that is that in my head, up until that point, I didn't really understand people, and I didn't understand how the world worked. It just never seemed to really make logical sense to me, or not my kind of sense, which I was kind of living in my own head most of the time. So it's probably why. But I had this unconscious belief that if I set kind of like a formula of actions into place, and I had my desired result on the other side of that equal sign, as long as I followed that formula to the T, or as close as humanly possible, what I wanted would happen. So it's almost like a spell. You get all the ingredients. You do it just right. It's going to happen. And that was the same exact thing. So if I do everything as close as possible-- so even though it's not a drug, but I'm still crushing something up and I'm putting in her drink, it's close enough that this is still going to work out. It's still going to come out the way that I want it to, that he and I are going to die, and we're going to be together for all eternity. I put it in her drink, I wait a couple more hours. He comes over, we're outside for like 30 minutes, smoke, and cigarettes. And finally, he's like, hey, man, we're going to do this. We should probably go inside. So go inside, creep up the stairs, stop some one of the landings, turns around, asks me, did you drug her? He said, yeah, I did. Because obviously, I don't want to tell him no. I don't want him to be mad at me, because I didn't do it. And I also didn't want to admit out loud that I didn't follow the formula, because I would break this bell. And so we walk up into her room, it's a double door, but one door shut. He walked in before me, and he had a knife from his job. And I draw Sean. [PHONE RINGING] She's a surprise. Right at the fucking-- I mean, how does that even have the fucking thing soft? I'm so sorry. Like, the whole part of the story of this story called could come in at is right now. Jesus Christ. That is-- That was fantastic. I was like a horror movie when somebody else's phone goes off right at the horrible part. Jesus Christ, how did that happen? Sitting over here at the edge of my seat and his phone rings like that, man. Oh my god. This thing, I do not disturb. It's out of a bitch. All right. So anyways, we're back. It's a double door. And so he had his knife from work, and I had pulled a knife out of our knife block, and it was a paring knife. Obviously not in my right mind. Like, what do you expect to do with a paring knife? That's like two inches long. But like I said, I was committing all of the actions, but it wasn't reality to me. I know that now. But he went into the room first, and we had a night light that was in the hallway outside our door. And I just remember stopping at our door, and I felt like my brain got washed over with white noise. And I couldn't think. I was just staring down at my shadow, and I couldn't move. I just said I could not. It was like a barrier that just wiped all thought from my brain. I could not-- I couldn't think around it. I couldn't. So I didn't. And I moved, and I sat down on the floor with my back against that closed door. And I waited in a kind of haze. And then I kind of woke back up. And I realized it was quiet. And so I peeked around the door, and I saw him standing over her practicing, like stabbing movements. And I went back again, and that whole wash of just like-- this isn't real dissociating from my body. And then I started hearing the noises, the shuffling, her waking up, her realizing what was happening, and who it was. And she said his name twice. And she told him, I won't. And he yelled at her, you won't what? And then she said my name twice. And I couldn't listen anymore. So I put my hands over my ears, and I curled up in the fetal position, and I just started humming to drown out the noise. And I didn't move until I felt him walk past me, and stand in front of me. So fucking heavy. So heavy. So fucking heavy. So that was done. Yeah. And I find it so heavily ironic that there was blood on his hands and his pants. I don't really remember seeing any on his chest. And there was only one drop on his face. And it was a tear drop right next to his eye. And the first thing I thought was God's mark, does as murderers. Because that's the tattoo you get in prison when you've killed someone. So I am-- obviously, you know, you can touch anything. So I went and I got my bag out of the room. [BLANK_AUDIO] We had to shut the windows and the blinds, but he didn't want me seeing her. So he went inside, he turned on the light and he took one of the blankets and he held it up as a screen. So I could move around the room to shut the windows and the blinds and turn on the AC without seeing her. And then closed the door, locked it, left, got in the car, went back to his house, burned our clothes, got in the shower. And next day, because we weren't supposed to have left yet, we acted like everything was normal. We went for that shopping list, we went and got food, went and bought rap poison and hair dye and went and hung out with some of our friends, especially with the purpose of getting high. We went and just bought a crap ton of drugs. And nobody knows what had happened. And what you guys doing this, did you guys in your head, did you guys have the thought that you were going to get away with it or in your head, did you think eventually you guys were going to get caught or you were going to end up committing suicide? Yeah, so it didn't really matter. It didn't matter. Like we were just the countermeasures that we were taking, like it sounds like we were trying to get away with it. We weren't trying to get away with anything. It was just, I think it's just given yourself more time, right? Yeah, it was more time. So the AC was to have everything cool in the house and the window, okay, understood. So the longer it takes for someone to find out what's happened, the longer it, they'll start looking for us. The day was this. The day was this. Um, that was Thursday night, Friday day was when we went and bought all the stuff and got a bunch of drugs. Because Monday is the anniversary and that was the day you're going to commit suicide with him. Yeah. Um, met up with God. Um, got a whole bunch of drugs, got, you know, coke, access to weed and honestly, like, I want to say from, like, eight o'clock, because we finally, it would took a minute to get it for some reason. But I think it may be from like six, six p.m. That night until Monday, I was just completely, I was loaded the entire time. Um, I, uh, I smoked some weed with God. We ended up telling him that night because he was our best friend. It was like the three of us. We were a triangle you always found us everywhere. Um, and I felt like he deserved to know why we were just going to be gone and then dead. So we told him and then that at midnight, we dropped him off back at his house. Then we went to San Francisco. What did God say? He just, he's just asked like why, like, why did we go to that length? And then when, because Boston is the one that told him pretty much everything, um, like, recounted all of it. And there were a few parts here and there. Yeah. Where I, like, butted in, um, like, I think at one point he asked like, well, how many times did you stab her and Boston gave, like, he said, like, 20 and I told him, no, no, that's, that's wrong. That can't be right. I was so sad as I, in my head, I'm like, there's no way because that, that many times means overkill, overkill means rage. Rage means you were angry. And if you're angry, that means that you did it because you wanted to do it and you hated her, not because you, you had to and you loved me and you wanted to come to suicide with me. That's what sick my head was. And so I corrected him and then he just agreed with me. How many times was that? What was it? Yeah. I told later that it was, it was 22. Wow. I got a question. So after that happened, did you feel like you were able to breathe? I mean, because of, you know, something like that, you know, I mean, obviously you're going through a lot and it's, it's like you're, you're trying to like get that out of your life. And I imagine that, you know, after it happened, you know, it was like, almost like, almost like a sense of relief if that even makes any sense. It does and it wasn't. I wouldn't say relief. It wasn't that happy. Right. That might not be the right word, but I think you understand. Yeah. It was, he got in the shower, when he got in the shower afterwards, I was sitting in his room. And I remember just staring at his window and I just started crying and I don't mean like sobbing crying. I just mean like tears just started leaking out of my eyes and I couldn't stop them. I don't even remember thinking anything. They just started and they didn't stop until the moment he walked in the room and they just vanished. I wanted to be happy because I got to be with him, but even later after I'd gotten arrested, there wasn't, there was definitely, you know, shame guilt and horror over what I'd done. And at the same time, you know, I wanted to miss her. And there are a lot of times where I would say, you know, like I miss her, but I didn't miss her. It's like I missed, I missed what a mom should have been and I missed like how I wish she would have been able to be in my life as a person that she was because she had the ability to be this just this amazing person. But I couldn't miss the entirety of her because we just had this really horrible toxic relationship. But yeah, so, and so when he got out of the shower, how much longer were you guys, you know, you're there before you bounced to San Francisco? So that was Thursday night. We spent Friday, still on El Dorado Hills Friday night, midnight. We set off for San Francisco Saturday Sunday and then Monday, we were in a hotel in San Francisco. Monday, you know, we made our calls and brought our good by letters and mixed our rap poison with some cake and milk. Okay. Downed it. Didn't do anything. It gave me a stomach ache. He didn't eat as much as I did. So he was really affected. And then woke up Monday, like did all the rest of the drugs. Woke up Monday morning and, you know, we're awake, we're alive. So what do we do? So I started panicking because I was like, no, that's not how this was supposed to happen. I'm supposed to be dead. I started kind of freaking out. I could feel the panic start in my chest. And so I asked him for the razors that I knew that he kept on hand. And I tried using one of those to cut open my arm. It didn't work. It was too dull. Like it made, it made definitely make cuts, but it wasn't like, I could have sat there and like really ground into it. It wouldn't have done anything. And at that point, I was just all panicked out. It just felt like this, I don't know if you've ever felt like this hopeless whoosh where it's just like everything that was in you, that was driving you, is just gone. You kind of feel like a husk. Yeah, that's how I felt. I just, I couldn't look backwards because that means I would have kind of had to have looked at what I just did. And I can't look forward because I don't want to look forward. There wasn't supposed to be a future. And so I just stuck in a horrible present. And he asked me, you know, what are we going to do? I was like, well, we can't stay here, you know? So we knew that the cops already knew they were already looking for us. So we left the hotel and we just started walking. We can't go north because that's where, you know, the crime happened. And so we just started walking south. If you don't mind me interrupting, how was, how was she discovered? So, is it actually one of my more, there's a lot of things that are horrible about this. But my mom's boss called for a welfare check on her. and the police called my grandpa. And this is, he would mind this is the weekend after Father's Day. This is the Monday after Father's Day. And so they had to call him and ask him if he had a key to the house. So he let them in and they went and they checked in the house and they found her upstairs. And then they had to turn around and tell my papa what they found. - Brutal. - Brutal. What's your relationship with him? - First couple years, obviously. Understandably, it's very rocky. They don't want anything to do with me. Obviously granted. But amazingly, after I got to prison and I got my head out of my own ass and I actually apologized to them. There were a lot of reasons that kept me from saying it for years, even, you know, it was just, there was so much shame there and what does sorry do? What does sorry do for something like that? It doesn't mean shit. So I just, it's almost like it got stuck in my throat because I knew how worthless it was. - Right. - And it took going to prison for me to finally write that to them. I said, I want to say sorry, but it doesn't mean shit. So I don't know what else to say. - Yeah, I would imagine. So you guys are walking in San Francisco. How much longer are you guys walking and where are you walking to and how long before you get stopped? - Started walking like on Monday and then on Wednesday is when they picked us up. You know, we're just walking. So he slept outside a couple nights. - So they found you in San Francisco basically? - San Bruno. - Okay. - And picked us up, you know, booked us whole nine yards, tried interviewing us, obviously, lied through my teeth, went to Juvee, back up in Al Dorado County, they transferred me back up and then the whole court process started. - Yeah, so that was my next question is when you guys get arrested, you know, what's your guys' story? You know, do you guys just say that you guys are just out on a little weekend journey or? - I said that we ran. Like we ran away. So I had no idea, no knowledge of my mom being dead, which is ran away. - Which I mean kind of contradicts the story. - Right. - Two certain things. - Well, they all, well, and also they have the journal and everything else too. I'm sure that played into it right? - Right, that's what I mean. It's probably a lot of too hard to put the puzzle pieces together. - Yeah. And then also like we'd mailed letters. Like, - It's a good tip for, you know, go buy letters and things like that. So it's not like. - Why did you stop? What made you stop trying to kill yourselves? Like why didn't you jump off a bridge or jump off a building or run, whatever? - I think I just, I felt so hopeless. And it was this belief that if we just, if we just followed this formula and we did everything the way that we were supposed to, that it was gonna work. And now the formula's gone. It didn't work. So even if we killed ourselves, we're not gonna be together for eternity. There's no point. It's just worthless. Everything we just did was worthless. There's nothing that will make it better. It was just complete paralyzing hopelessness. There's no point to anything, you know? We just walk because, you know, it's moment by moment, you know, not really thinking about, oh, when they catch us, this is, you know, did it it it it it was just, okay, what do we do right now? So, you know, we got arrested and told our stories. He asked for a lawyer right away. I played like I didn't know anything. And so the whole court process began. And that's in June. Over the next couple months, you know, they took me to a fitness hearing. So fitness hearing for juvenile court is when they determine whether or not you are fit to be tried as a juvenile or whether or not you should be moved into adult court to be tried as an adult. In the state of California, back then, the minimum age that you could be tried as an adult was 14. Now it's 16. But so at this fitness hearing, they have certain criteria. And if you fail three out of the five, you get tried as an adult. And I got found unfit. - You failed with flying colors? - Oh yeah. - Well, we're some of the questions. Well, like one of them was the heinousness of the crime. The other one was criminal sophistication, degree of criminal sophistication. Prior attempts at rehabilitation. So if you'd been to Juvee before, if you'd been, you know, was there any proof that you could be rehabilitated? Or that you couldn't, like previous record, like do you have a record of violence or, you know, whatever. And there's one more I can't remember. But yeah, the, so I failed. You know, and then I got moved into adult court November 17th, so the day before my birthday. And then so now that was an adult court, my, I call him Stephen now. I don't call him Boston. Stephen's his real name. Stephen went to his attorney and I guess they worked out a defense once they realized that I was gonna be tried with him. So we were trying to code if and so we tried together instead of separately. And he came out to the press with his defense, which was, I was schizophrenic. And I'm the one that killed my mom. He had no knowledge of it. He showed up afterwards. And the reason why I don't remember doing it myself was because I was schizophrenic and I had alternate personalities. My alternate personalities on that killed her. - Okay. - And how did you feel? - I was about to say you fucking mother fuckers. - Yeah, I know, but he's a shit, right? And then you talked to this dude five years later in prison, right? Or up to five years? - Yeah. Well, I mean, we, in Juvean and YA, no contact. - Right. - So it was, they don't, I mean, typically they don't let, let you write your code offendance, at least from my experience. - In prison they do because if you have an open case and your code offendance, then technically you guys are allowed to talk to each other about your defense. - About the case. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So, yeah, it was literally a mixture, I think it was four letters. Five years after we had gotten incarcerated, and that was it. - So when you found out that he had tried to, you know, put everything on you. - Did you just kind of just take it and just say, fuck it? - No, up until that point, I had been trying to defend him. Like when I went on the stand when I was at my fitness hearing, like I can't even tell you how many times I asked my attorney, are you sure that nothing I say can be used against him? It was like, yeah, I'm like, okay, that I'm a lie through my teeth, you know? - Right. - But, at that point my attorney came up to me and he said, okay, look, I have been an attorney for multiple couples that are code offendance, and I'm telling you right now, the guys that really care about the women that they are with, they will take everything. They never blame them, or they at least share. They don't talk. So this guy, he now knows you're getting tried as an adult. His attorney knows what that means. You are potentially going to receive life in prison, 25 years to life, plus two special circumstances. He knows that, and he's putting everything on you. Like, he doesn't care about you. So you need to start thinking about yourself. - And this is your 14, your 14, correct? - Just turn 15. - I'm sorry, yeah, you're right. You're just turn 15. - Yeah. - So, I finally got it through my head. So I did. I contacted the DA, and I told him I'd testify against Stephen in return for second-degree murder, 15-to-life, no special circumstances. First time I went and I told them what happened. still lied through my teeth. It was a huge liar, you know, lied about everything. Went back to my cell because at the time I was pretty heavily Christian. Went back to my cell, started reading my Bible and there's a Psalm that says, you know, "Lying is an abomination to God. A false witness is an abomination to God." And I was like, "Okay, thank you. Here you got it." Contacted my attorney the next day told him to contact the DA and tell them, "I lied. I want to tell the truth." They came back to me and they said, "Well, it's a good thing you did that because we didn't believe anything you said. And if you had waited one more day for us to tell you we weren't going to give you your deal, we would not give you a second chance. But the fact that you're coming back to us and telling us that you lied, we're going to give you a second chance." So they did and I finally told the truth. I got to tell you, for, you know, up into that point, 15 years of being a bold face, you know, red, caught red-handed liar doesn't, I mean, there you could be a 0.0001 percent chance that I could get away with something by lying and I would take it. But sitting in that room and telling them the truth for the first time in my life, being honest about something that I knew I was going to get punished for, I had to talk through like black crowding in on my vision, my heart was pounding out of my chest, I was sweating, I get felt like I was going through like dTs from lying just to tell the truth. And I will be honest and stay that I was still in an entirely selfish and self-serving mindset because when they asked me, "Why did you want to tell the truth now?" My response wasn't, "Oh, I want to honor my mom or I want to do the right thing." It was, "If I lie and I don't get my deal, then that's on me. If I tell the truth and I don't get my deal, then I did everything I could to do the right thing and that's what matters." It was still entirely completely selfish and until the truth for any other reason than to be selfish. But I got my deal, I testified and he got LWAP, so life without the possibility of parole. And we got sentenced, I got sent to YA, went to YA for about a year and some months. That was the last time I had tried to commit suicide was when I was at YA and then 18 years, day after my 18th birthday, got shipped to Chao Chila. And that's where you spent all your time. So how many years did you do? In total, I did almost 14. 14 years. And you were sentenced to 15 to life? 15 to life, yeah. Okay. So as a lifeer, you are able to do things like as long as you're positively programming, you're not getting any write-ups, doing things like going to self-help groups, rehabilitative groups, giving back to your community any way that you can go into school, you can get credits that take time off of your base term. So all that that means is you get to go to board sooner. It's not a pass out. It just means you get to go before the board of parole hearings a couple years earlier, possibly, depending how much time you get off. So 15 and a half years you did? Like almost 14. Yeah, 14, sorry. I'm still still lost in the sauce here. Yeah, like three months shy of 14 years. Yeah. So what is your thought process now? I mean, do you have a lot of regret? I mean, do you? Oh, yeah. I mean, absolutely. I in no shape or formed in my mom deserve what I did to her. If I can't say a lot of people have like, well, if you could go back and change it, would you? It's like, of course, what kind of question is that? Yes, of course, I would go back and change it. I can't tell you that I wouldn't have grown up to be a horrible human being and probably would have hurt a lot of people still. It wouldn't have changed who I was. But if I could take that action back, yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah, because I'm sure a lot of people listening to that or to this, but would probably want to hear that, you know, that you do have regret remorse and, you know, you're not just some fucking evil person, but you know, on other side of things too, I mean, from one to 13, you're pretty much tormented your entire life. You know, it doesn't give it a okay for what happened by any means, but, you know, awful, awful people do awful things and your mom did some fucking pretty shitty things to you, growing up. And, man, I don't know your story's fucking wild. It's fucking powerful. It's a fucking powerful story. It is such a trip, you know, that, you know, speaking to you prior to even doing this podcast, it's like, there's almost like a like a weird fascination, you know, that story, you know, it's like a weird fascination, you know, what you went through, you know, but it's such a fucking tragedy, you know, what I mean? It really is such a tragedy, you know, and the things that we go through as kids, you know, I mean, it really does have a strong impact on us, you know, and we make decisions, you know, that, you know, can impact our whole life, you know, and we're not even fully aware of it. We're acting out on emotions and, you know, just I don't even know how to explain it, you know, I mean, in those moments, you felt like your life was over and you didn't want to live anymore and you didn't want to deal with any of the bullshit anymore. And for you, that was like a rational decision, you know, which is, you know, truly not the case, but it's like, you know, we can, we can fix these ideas in our head and I don't even know how to explain it, man, it's just such a trip, you know, the things that we go through and the positions that we end up in. And I mean, ultimately, I mean, it really does, it really does kind of fall back on what you went through as a kid, you know, I mean, it does not make anything that happened okay or justifiable, but it's like, you know, it shows that, you know, having a healthy family and a healthy relationship with your kids, like it really does matter, you know. That's what I said with earlier in the show, it's like you, you have a chance now to, it's like a complete do over of your family history, you know. Yeah. I mean, parents make mistakes, you definitely don't have to be a perfect parent, you know, to, to be there for your kid. I just have to just being there emotionally and then not abusing them, right? You know, being that safe place for them so that way when they come home from a world that is definitely dangerous and hard and hurts that they have one safe place that they can go to and parents make that for their kids and if they don't have that, they'll find it somewhere else, right? Whether that's in friends or boyfriends or drugs, you know, or in mentors, it's just really kind of what they grab a hold of first, or what grabs a hold of them. Yeah. So, and I know we discussed this before the show, but you know, there was a lot of media to this story, right? So, I mean, your story could be seen on, you said 48 hours, 2020, and you said one of them was called Romeo and Juliet, right? I think so, I can't really remember. I didn't, I didn't make a study of them. Sure. Sure. All of the snapped, you know, snapped, snapped killer, couple, snapped killer kids. A couple international stories covered it. My grandparents contracted with 48 hours. I did an interview with 2020. Like the first time my grandparents actually came to visit me after I'd gotten sentenced. They came with 48 hours. Did they know the history that your mom, you know, did you, during those times, or did they not? They didn't know the extent of it. I, after having conversations with them afterward, like, for instance, in my probation report, my papa is on record and saying that my mom was never an alcoholic and she was never abusive to me. However, my grandparents know that she was abusive to me because I was taken away from her when I was four for physical abuse. And I was put in their home, you know, for almost six months. Right. So, you know, and they knew she was had a problem with drinking because, you know, before, you know, Steven entered my life, my maybe it was after, I know, yeah, it was after. Steven was the one that actually got me to go to my grandparents' house when I couldn't go to him. When my mom was drinking, they asked me what was happening and I told them and my grandfather actually came to our house one day, went through our recyclables, found all of the empty. wine bottles in the trash and emailed my mom and told her, you know, you're an alcoholic, you need to get some help. He doesn't know that I know about that email. She read it to me. But you know, I, Denials, a really, really powerful thing. And I know that my mom's relationship with my family was pretty bad. She resented them for most of my life. And I had to defend them to her for most of my life. I had to convince her to go see them, to spend time with them because I wanted to spend time with my family. Until again, therapy, around 11, 12, that started changing and she started being much more accepting and understanding of just where they were, meet them where they're at, kind of thing. And said, then I got better. But like my whole life, I had been the one to defend my mom, defend them to my mom. And my family, you know, told me a point blank they didn't like my mom. My grandfather told me to my face, you know, we don't like your mom. We don't like being around her. And then when I went to trial, it was, we spent so much time around her. We loved her so much. She was such a big part of our lives. And I'm like, you don't know anything about her, you know? To complete denial. Yeah. And I used that anger to fuel having to look at the damage I did to them. It was like my own personal smoke screen. If I could be angry at them for, you know, them outcasting my mom and waiting until she was dead to tell her things like, I love you and I'm proud of you, then I didn't have to look at how much I hurt them. And like I said, it wasn't until I was like 18, that I finally dropped that smoke screen. And I was got down and honest with myself and realized, that's why I'm holding onto that anger. Has nothing to do with my childhood. It's just because I don't want to admit how badly I've hurt them. Yeah. Right. So the 14 years, you had plenty of time to work on yourself inside, right? So when did you, when did that 18? Was that when some things clicked over and kind of switched around on you? Well, I mean, turn to corner, I should say. Kind of. I mean, when I was 15, it kind of started when I was 15, little bits and pieces. I got to juvenile hall is the first time anybody ever told me I was manipulative. Manipulating people in my whole life. I didn't know another way to communicate with how human beings other than to be manipulative. I didn't even know it was called being manipulative. That was just how I communicated. And it wasn't until I had CEOs that were watching my every move, sit me down and tell me, you're a manipulative little bitch that I was like, oh, well, what does that mean? How am I manipulative? And then at first I was really defensive and then I finally, you know, oh, that's manipulative. Why is that wrong? And gradually started learning how to, you know, have a, any kind of relationship with another person without manipulation being a part of it. Realizing I didn't have an emotional identity. I up until that point was like my mom's emotional caretaker. I was responsible for moderating her emotions. So I couldn't have any of my own. I wasn't allowed to. It was just always in response of being hyperactive and hyper sensitive to hers. And then mine would counterbalance hers. And so it wasn't until I was in Juvie that I realized that, oh, I don't know how I actually feel about anything. All of my emotions are pretty much concoctions of who I'm around. I'm going to feel how this person would normally feel because I want to be accepted by them, because that serves me. It's extremely codependent, you know, but then realizing, you know, I don't know how I feel about anything. I don't know what makes me sad. I don't know what makes me angry, really. I don't know what makes me happy. And then kind of going flat for almost, you know, three years, four years after that, gradually starting to rediscover what I actually feel when it's not being clouded by codependency and drugs. And then when I was about 16, I started, you know, making a practice of telling the truth. I didn't want to be a liar anymore. So I started telling the truth. And like initially I started doing all of the right things because I didn't want to feel the consequences. I just don't want the bad things that happen from doing bad things. So I'm just going to stop doing bad things. Still, totally selfish motives, you know, I'm changing, but I'm doing it for me, you know, it has nothing to do with being a better human being or making amends. I just don't want to have to deal with the shit anymore. And then a little bit further, gradually 18, I went to prison. I went to this group in prison called life scripting and they teach you this, it's pressure point therapy that actually, I wouldn't say removes, but it separates your automatic nervous system response from your thoughts. So when you think things, your automatic nervous system responds by increasing your heart rate, making your palms sweaty, like it gives you a bodily or physiological response to your emotions or your thoughts, right? If you can separate those two and it's like almost like a positive feedback loop, they feed each other. So the more you think it, the more you feel it in your body, the more you feel it in your body, the more you think it. And it just spirals. And so when you separate the two, your brain will actually start to let go of that loop. It'll start to let go of those emotions, let go of those thoughts. It won't be so obsessive anymore because it's not getting the body's feedback. And up until that point, when I actually started to allow myself to feel remorse, I couldn't cry. And I would punish myself for being subhuman and being a piece of shit, not being able to cry over what I did by forcing myself to relive my worst memories. They call it psychological self-mutilation just so I could cry so I could feel a little bit human. And because at least I could punish myself enough over what I did. And it wasn't until I went to that group and I cleared those memories that I had been using because I'm like, you know what? This isn't healthy. I can't keep doing this anymore, but it's like an addiction. And I'm not going to do this to myself anymore. So I cleared them. So that way I wouldn't have that gut heart-wrenching, horrible pain response to those memories anymore. And what ended up happening was by the time I was done, I was bawling on the floor for about half an hour straight. It was like it opened up a door and it wasn't. Now I know is that we're kind of like turtles. The more you hurt us, the more deeper we go into our shells. So the more I was hurting myself, I was actually reinforcing the armor that was keeping me from feeling. So when I finally removed the weapon and the pain that I was using, there was no more reason for my emotions to go into hiding and they were able to have safely come out because I wasn't hurting myself anymore. And then from that point forward, it was like I came back to life. And I say that pretty authentically. Like my first year in prison, I was 18. You know, there's a lot of, they call me a baby lifer. And a lot of baby lifers get swooped up by drug dealers. They, you know, you get in all kinds of shenanigans because they're young and they're stupid and people know that they can take advantage of them. And believe me, if somebody had come up to me and handed me any kind of drug, I would have done it. For sure. Absolutely. Take me out. But nobody did. And for the first year, it was because I was insane to most people. I didn't talk. I said maybe a total of five words a day. People thought I was on thoreazine. I was just that completely out of it. I was in such a deep depression. Like I could sit on my bed and stare at the wall for two hours straight and not move. And it scared a lot of the people around me. They just thought I was crazy. So nobody messed with me. Nobody invited me to go do stupid things. So I was in prison long enough that the people that actually gave a damn about my life and wanted me to do the right thing. Other lifers and LWOPs kind of came around the bend and we're like, okay, you're under our wing now. We're going to, and like people that were kind of questionable when I started coming like to life and talking to other people. The lifers, some of them would come behind me and they would go talk to those people and basically say, you know, she's a baby. My first, she has a chance of getting out one day, stay the fuck away from her. And it's because of that. And then them showing me how to program, them showing me what groups were, them showing me how to do my time responsibly. that I was able to move into an honor dorm and I started going to groups because it was something to do and then eventually it was something that I enjoyed doing. And then the first day that I walked into a Coda group and then all of my shit made sense. That's when like set off this complete addiction to groups to self-help, to rehabilitation and to recovery. And it was like, now I'm starving. I'm starving. I need as much of it as I can get. I need to understand why I am the way I am, why I was the way that I was. I need to get better. I need to be better. I need to be a better person. Not just for my mom and my family and everybody else that I hurt. Because it's a very, very long list. But also just for myself. And it sent me off and running. I did every group. I could get my hands on. And then within a couple of years I was facilitating groups. I became a part of a couple of different organizations that are in prison. They're called LTG. They're like nonprofits within that are inmate ran for inmates. Like juvenile offenders committee beyond a carceration program. And then later on the youth diversion program. So I was a mentor to kids who would come in the prison. And then the dog program where I trained service dogs. So like facilitating groups that focus on victim impact, sobriety, codependency. And also ACA was a big one for me. Adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families. That changed my life in a whole other way. Even years after I was in recovery. And I start my recovery time about a year after I got into prison. Not because I was using drugs while I was in Juveer, why? But because I have manipulated this system when I was in Juveer to get put on psych meds. I lied to them and I told them that I had depression and anxiety, which I ended up getting diagnosed with later. But it wasn't until I was in prison that I was like, I finally stopped taking the meds because I didn't want to feel anything like I was using them appropriately. I wasn't abusing them, but my mindset in taking them was addictive. Like I was taking them for addictive, like an addicted person's mentality. I want to take this because I don't want to feel anything. I just wanted to fix it. I need an escape. I don't want to deal with this to. I'm going to talk with my therapist about reducing my level of medication so I can learn how to deal with my shit. I want to feel. I want to understand my life and I want to feel my life and I want to learn how to handle it. I don't want to run away anymore. And then gradually, just for me, I was able to get off of my medication completely and learn how to actually use healthy coping skills and to be in recovery and to handle life on life starts. What's your clean day? I don't know the exact day, but I said it in 2012 in June because that's my June 11th is my crime day. So I just said it in 2012 because I know that's when I changed over my mindset about my medication. So I put it in June 21st of 2012. Wow. Minds June 11th of 15. In your birthdays, 11, 18. My wife's 11, 19. It's just funny. It's fucking God or odd. You know, people that are connected. So with with all that being said, I mean, I'm sure that there's been a awful people saying things about you probably. I would only imagine. I mean, I know the media probably bashed the shit out of you too. Oh, yeah. I was a so so path. Right. How long have you been out of prison for almost a year? It'll be a year next month. You're next month. Wow. And this is your first time really speaking about this. Uh, yeah, in some sort of platform, I guess. Yeah, platform. I've led a couple of meetings. And obviously, you know, not speaker meetings. So I've 15 minutes. You can't pack all that into 15 minutes really easily. So I've talked about my crime, but I've never actually said who my victim was. Right. And the main reason wasn't because I was ashamed. I mean, I am ashamed, but it wasn't because I didn't want to, you know, share it was because 15 minutes isn't a lot to say that and then bring people back to the message. Right. I just didn't want anybody to get stuck on that and then just not hear the message of by the way you can also recover after that. Right. So this is, yeah, it's first time. Well, you're definitely recovering. You know, so you have some clean time. I mean, you got your, your, your out, you're, are you, are you in some sort of housing or? No, I was for six months mandatory for every life. Right. And got out of it. I moved in with a color my twin. She's my best friend and she, we met in prison and she was my partner in the dog program. We look creepily similar. That's why we call each other twins. But thankfully, I was able to develop a really close friendship with her. And that's actually a big part of the reason why I came down to San Diego after I got out. And we're in getting out. And I live with her now. Got it. So, I mean, before we wrap this two hour and 30 minute conversation. You know, what, so, so what is life like now for you? My life is pretty amazing. I get to go to recovery meetings. I am a student at SDSU now. I just, I, I was employed. I had to quit my full time job to go to school full time. But, at one point, I had a job where my board of directors knew exactly who I was and what I did. My, the president of my, of the directors was an ex-warden. And not only did they put me in charge of 502 people's homes with keys to most of them, he also asked me to go into his house while he was in the hospital to shut his windows when it was raining. Like that level of trust from people who just got to know me, even knowing what I had done. Like, isn't that amazing? Yeah. You know, I mean, I cried walking away from his house. Yeah, I mean, I've had some situations in my life where I'm just like, wow, man, how the tables have really turned, you know, people can trust me. I mean, I had a few incidents where I worked on someone's property who was a cop, you know. And they treated me like a human being for the first time in my life, you know. And I just remember how powerful it was, you know. It's insane. Straight up. And that's honestly like what I'm, one of the things I'm grateful for most is that now I get to be a person that people trust. And even knowing my past, they don't look at me any different and they still consider me a friend and people depend on me. And they feel safe depending on me and confiding in me and, you know, letting me around their children. It's insane to me sometimes like when I think about it, you're really choked up because I just, after the decisions I've made in my life, I wouldn't blame anybody for staying away from me, for not wanting to get to know me because of what I've done, you know, that's a danger. But the fact that people let me in their homes and they care about me and they consider they call me their friend. No, I have friends, my friends in recovery. And I just, it's amazing to me and it's so beautiful. And even the really hard moments, like I've been in the ICU since I got out. You know, I've been dealing, obviously, money issues because who doesn't worry about that? Personal stuff, really somebody really close to me, relapsed a few times. I was there for part of it both times. And it's just the fact that I get to keep going and I get to keep living my life and working on myself. Like that's amazing. This is what my sponsor tell he said this to me and it just really, really, you know, it really stuck and I resonated. But he always used to say they go, they get, they get high, we stay clean. They get high, we stay clean. And I'm like, it's so basic to think about it's like, but it's so true. You get high, I stay clean. And it's one of those selfish things to think about. but that's the cold hard facts. I'm keeping my seat, no matter what, and you should do the same. I was thinking about this podcast, I mean, it's funny, a couple of things. When we were having a conversation over the phone, and you said, "Well, I don't know if my story would jive on your show or whatever you said, "I don't think, I don't know." And I said, "Okay, well, explain to me a little bit "and you gave it to me." I'm like, "No, this is perfect. This is 100% perfect." And so, "A, I really appreciate you coming on." And secondly, my thought was, I'm gonna feel sorry for this 14-year-old, and have not sympathy, but I look over at you, and it's like I see a 29-year-old woman, and that's how to fucked up life, like we all had, and how to do a lot of fucking things that we regret, and put ourselves into a lot of fucked up, sticky situations. And like I said, you over the phone, anybody that was brought up in a really shitty situation has thought those thoughts, and some of them have went out and done those things. In your situation, that did happen, and for you to grow from that, to rebuild relationships with your family, obviously you can't take back anything that happened to your mom, but I can see the empathy that you have in your fucking voice and your heart. So, I just know that recovery has changed you, and it will continuously change you. I mean, you're 29 years old, you still have a whole life ahead of you. - Yep. - And the thing of it is, I mean, you spent so much time incarcerated too, and you've been out for a year, things have totally changed, you know, in that time frame. - Yep. - I just think that your story's fucking really impactful, and I hope everybody goes and reads your book. What is broken about? - I mean, it's not factual, so it's not like my life story or anything, but it is, it's sci-fi fantasy, it's about the one thing that's somewhat similar, is a girl, she commits a crime, when she's 14 years old, she's part of a street gang, she ends up killing somebody, goes to prison, and it's set like really far in the future, and pretty much the entire world is ruled over by this entity called the Malvia, and the first thing they tell you when you get locked up is that your life isn't your own, you belong to them, and that comes from just some of the frustration of being in prison, you know, for anybody who's ever been in prison, you know, your state property, you are considered state property. They can give you a 115 for getting a sunburn, for destruction of state property, and that they get to make all of the decisions that come with your life for most, for the most part of it, except for what you do internally. - Right. And so that's what it really built out of, and then it just became this way for me to be able to express quite a lot of emotional truths in my life, in that medium. So it has, like, me going through an abusive childhood, it has prison, it has relationships with other people and learning how to have trusting relationships with other people, what it looks like, not to constantly feel like you have to manipulate someone or be on the watch for somebody to manipulate you, like what that looks like. And then also the number one thing about the main character that I love and that I tried to put forward is she makes mistakes, you know, she makes plenty of mistakes, her emotions get the better ever. But the number one thing is that she is completely committed to doing the right thing, even if it killed her. And that's how I feel, you know. I don't, if it, I will continue to make amends and do the right thing and make the right choices, and if it kills me, it kills me. So it's just really about her navigating that world and the positions that she's put in when she ends up having to work for the Malvia as what's called a fixer. So she gets sent out into the empire to fix things. Like, you know, fix situations. So that way they come out for the Malvia. And so this basically this worldwide mind-fuck that they do, using their little fingers and hands, the fixers and the records. And they manipulate all of the masses of the people within the empire. So that way they stay where they want them, which is dependent on the government basically. And she ends up becoming one of these hands, but she very quickly becomes committed to tearing them down. And figuring out what she has to do to get rid of them, because it's not right what they do to people. - Love it. Fuck it, love it. You're fucking smart. Fucking write a book like that, Jesus Christ. Anyway, guys, go check that out on Amazon. The book is called Broken Charlie Wolf. I appreciate you so much for coming on and sharing your story. I mean, blown out. Mystery man, you got anything for? - No, it's fascinating. - Good. We're done here. Two hours and 45 minutes, you guys. You all know the fucking deal. And I'm gonna tell you right now, I almost just wanna drop this motherfucker tomorrow. It's what you got. But I'll be patient. I gotta turn this back on now. So it's a lot of more phone calls. Anyways, you guys, this has been another show of the LFG 1904 show. Told you it was gonna be a banger cliffhanger for about an hour and 30. So go ahead and, oh, this is not working. Now you son of a bitch. Oh, I did the wrong one. See, I told you, that's smart. I'm gonna figure it out though. Same thing, guys. You all know the deal. [MUSIC]