Busting Sake Myths

The people of Sakai actually brought me into Sakai. Back in 1980, this place was actually in Genza, on the main drag. The first day was kind of soy sauce, it was miso. At the point where it actually changed my life. New Year's Day 1989. Not just Sakai as a beverage, but all the cultural history. Welcome back, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of Sakai on Air. The world's first podcast dedicated to expanding the dialogue surrounding Japan's iconic beverages, Sakai, Shochu, and of course, Amanori. This podcast is made possible with the support of the Japan Sakai and Shochu Makers Association. My name is Arlene Lines, and today I am joined by Rebecca Wilson-Lye and Sebastian Lemoine, one of our regular Sakai on Air hosts, to talk about the myths and misconceptions around Sakai. All right, so welcome Rebecca, and thanks for joining me. Hello, Arlene. It's been a while between Sakai's sessions, looking for to basting some myths and destroying some stereotypes and creating new archetypes for people. So I'll start us off with, and this is also, I think, something that I'm based in Europe, I might hear more of certain myths than you do in Japan, but certainly the biggest one here and the one that I hear all of the kind of retailers complaining about is that people think that Sakai is a beverage. They can get distilled, I think it's high-strength, and part of that, certainly in Europe, is like no one knows where to put it. It's not a wine, it's not a beer, and it just ends up being kind of shelved under spirit miscellaneous, because nobody understands. Well, that's an easy misconception to have, because when you look at Sakai, well, number one, it's often translated as rice wine. Yeah, so that's not right. And also, because it's made from a grain, and it's transparent, people instantly make the assumption that it's a distilled beverage, because it's transparent. Yeah, and because of both of those reasons, wine distilled beverages, it is unfortunately stored in India, usually at room temperature, and so by the time you drink it, it is quite difficult to actually assume what you're actually drinking, because it's usually in such poor condition. And I think that also, there has been what I've observed when I left overseas, when I was living in New Zealand, Sakai being drunk in shock glasses, and people drinking in one shot and go, "Ah, that's so strong, well, it's 15% alcohol, sorry, you're getting a cheek buzz." Yeah, that's very important, but associated with Sakai is a spirit. And there is this idea that Sakai is very strong, it's very strong in alcohol, and as you just said, they're very important, but Sakai is a fermented beverage, who is a 15% alcohol content. There's also something, and you see this as well with the UNESCO listing, because it talks about Sakai, but it covers Shochu, and so this is ambiguity in how the words used. There is a lot of confusion, because Sakai just means alcohol, right? We, Sakai is technically called Nihonshu or Seishu, once we know that those things that we're talking about, we slip into talking about Sakai, because once upon a time there was only one Sakai in Japan, the Sakai that we now call Nihonshu or whatever, but with the introduction from overseas of distilling practices, there were more than one type of Sakai, and hence I think the confusion, but I think there's also a lot of confusion within Japan, even amongst the Japanese population. I remember going to a very, very fancy bar, very, very, swish kind of place, and I asked for, I said, "Oh, you've got Sakai on the menu, they serve me Sakai, and I'm meddling you from the beer, and they had just saved me Shochu." And I turned the bottle around, and sure enough, it was 25% alcohol, and it was a, it was a Jun Mai, it was called a Jun Mai, like a Jun Mai Shochu, but because a Jun Mai written on the front of the label, the bartender thought it was a Jun Mai Sakai, right? So there's a lot of confusion within Japan. Yeah. And I think the confusion, sometimes the labels looks a little bit the same behind the bar. I mean, I'm talking Shochiboros and Sakai boros, so it doesn't help. Yeah. I mean, so this is not just an international meth-busting session, there are definitely meth-worth in Japan that we need to also help to reinforce some clarity around. Rebecca, you mentioned a technical word, which is "saysu," which we can translate as "clear Sakai" or "piltred Sakai," so I just want to take that opportunity to talk about this word and say that there is one meth as well or one misconception about Sakai is that Sakai is always clear and related to that, to that "saysu" name, and of course, it depends on the country because in the U.S., for example, we know that Nigori, so cloud Sakai, is sort of a mainstream product today. But Alain, I think you won't disagree with me that in Europe, we still don't see a lot of Nigori Sakai at restaurants, and that kind of explains maybe that kind of misconception about the breath of what Sakai has to offer, not only in terms of aromas and flavors, but in terms of texture as well. I think here, I think even if I go to a Japanese restaurant with a good Sakai list where kind of they should know what they're doing, I've had the experience that the waiter comes with a Nigori, and obviously it's been left to settle, and then they don't remix it before boring. And so I think fitting in with this issue of the serving size, prompting people to think that Sakai is some kind of spirit, you have beautiful, beautiful traditional ceramics that are sometimes traditional glassware that you see Sakai served in, and then I think people think like, oh, well, I could try some Sakai, but I don't have the right, I don't have the little tukuri, the little flask, and I don't have the little cups, and I'm also just like, you don't need that, you need a wine glass, I use a whiskey tumbler sometimes, but like there's absolutely no requirements to invest in expensive, imported, or even if you're a Japan domestic accessories for Sakai, you can be much more relaxed about it. Use what you have. Absolutely. Because, well, for one reason, there is a reason why traditionally Sakai was served in small cups, and that was more of a social reason, and that by serving in small cups, you would be able to drain your glass quickly, and then offer to pour, refill someone's glass as a sign of respect, and create a connection with them. It's a way of sort of, maybe, a way of breaking the ice in social situations. But also, as I say, you're saying, there is really no run, it's what if you have available, utilize it, and then part of your journey can be picking up little bits and pieces and trying out different shapes, and seeing how changes or enhances the flavour of the Sakai, and that can also be a wonderful part of the Sakai journey. And also you've got the whole question of temperature, and so there's some people who kind of have the impression that, oh well, historically, Sakai was always drunk warm, so you have to heat it. It's not to be consumed cold. And then you've got other people who would say that, kind of like, oh, if Sakai should be served cold, and if you get a Sakai that served warm, then that's kind of suspicious. When I lived in New Zealand, it was only served hot straight out of the microwave, it was in town, and I remember it because it's in the roof of my mouth, so I was told that that's how authentically Sakai was served. And so again, that's the first piece of information that you get, and it was from Japanese people, I believed it. It wasn't until I came to Japan knowing that there was much more nuance to it than that. So again, I see when I go overseas on menus, not here in Japan, but I see it overseas. The Sakai looks beautiful, with extensive, incredible Sakai, and it's hot or cold. You can choose hot or cold, but not all of these Sakai seem to be appropriate for serving cold, or serving hot. It's a bit case by case, depending on the specific characteristics of the Sakai, or depending on maybe the time of year, or depending on the style of food that is being served, where there's much more nuance than just hot or cold. There's something to add here, and we actually have an episode on the topic coming out. Well, stay tuned for more info. But I mean, I drink Okan every, almost every time I go out, even in summer. I drink Okan, or so warmed Sakai, because also I think there's also a bit of a method in the next video. need to debunk because it's hot or cold. Warmed sake or awkarn is basically anything that's above room temperature because it's going to require some kind of warming to bring it up to that temperature and I, you know, I bet go to restaurants that serve it from everything from like bath temperature to up to 70 degrees, depending on the style of food that it's being served and it's depending on the characteristics of the particular sake. Now that, that is obviously the place I'm talking about is a very specialist restaurant that celebrates the art of awkarn but there's, it's not just hot or cold and it's really fun to, again, at home to experiment with a sake. So it is a, again, it's, there's no right or wrong, it's dependent on a lot of variables. But again, like you said, like this is something that you really enjoy in a specialist place and I think that also speaks to the overseas sake list just having hot or cold and then maybe the people preparing the list don't have the level of background knowledge needed to figure out which is which. I think that that's something that in terms of education would be really helpful for that to be more of, so because also in Japan as well, there isn't, you know, but actually you can have warm sake at many, many places, not just specialist places in Japan, many, many, many, many, but I think that there is a lack of maybe education or not enough education or not enough experience at a, at a sort of a training level in FNB and fed in beverage industry to give, you know, restaurant staff the, the know how to be able to provide this wonderful service to their customers and elevate their sake list. Well, I want to add that there is this place I love in Tokyo Station where they send the same sake at nine different tomatoes. It's not only from cold to very hot, but it's, it's, it's a consummation as well. So he did, he did up and then could it down and, and you have a different expression of the same sake. So there are lots of variations like mixing hot and cold or, or, and yeah, again, a lot of adventure to, to pursue when playing with temperature, not, not every sake will, will support that, but quite if you will. And that's actually really, there'll be a really fun experience with who are interested in learning about, you know, the effect of temperature and sake because it's the same sake. You've got a, you know, standard product to, as your reference point, but that's really close to the question. Oh, my gosh. I think I want to go there. Yeah. I mean, I can, I can give the name is it, it's called, I think it's called Akita Saketbara and I haven't been there for, for a bit of times. I hope it survived a recent illness. So that, that was, that's in Tokyo station, there have been times I'm kind of doing workshops and whatever and I said, like, okay, we're going to start with, with this and I was like, oh, but aren't you starting with the best one? And I was like, what do you mean the best one? I was like, oh, did my diginjo, that's the best one. And I was just like, is that something you've got in Japan as well? Well, this is the sake education's one, we love sake education, we want more sake education, but sometimes a little bit of knowledge can be a very, very bad thing. Because people who are looking for ways, they look at a quick fix, silver bullet that's going to, I know sake and I know how to order it well now. And one of the most easy ways that people get side-tracked is they see a visual chart that's usually done in the pyramid shape, which is really because the, it's in the pyramid shape, because the most highly polished rice grades are a very, very small part of the sake market, so that the top of the pyramid, not because the top of the pyramid as in quality, but the top of the pyramid as in volume. And so that, ah, well, that's the pinnacle of the pyramid, so therefore it must be the best. So I think that there is this association with, ah, the more the rice is polished, the more good it is, and that's just so not right, because it's actually more difficult to make a beautifully crafted trim my sake, than it is to make a sake out of a very, very highly polished um, sake rice. Because there is, there are lipids, there are proteins, there are various other things within the rice that is going to make the ferment challenging, right? It's much more of a much more streamlined um, brewing process, when you have removed a lot of those lipids and proteins that can create um, some complications within the fermentation process. So um, that's a technical level, why I, I don't agree with the idea that Jimmy Dagen-Johers is better or whatever, but also I often hear people saying that they only drink, drink my Dagen-Joh because it's the best, but when I ask them why, it's because they have heard that the highest, the higher the polishing rate, the better the sake is. So I don't know where this information comes from, but I think it is probably connected with getting a little bit of information, connecting it to the Tokotay Masho show, because it has got the Tokotay Masho, this, this visual designation grades um, are ranked according to the polishing rate of the rice, not the quality of the product, um, there is an assumption that the lower the polishing rate, the better the sake, um, so it's, it's something that I think all of us have experienced and we all try to um, explain to people that the quality of sake is not based on how much the rice is polished, it's the end product, how it's been crafted, um, that is where you personally can judge a sake, there's no, I don't think that there's any kind of comprehensive blanket statement, this is good sake and that's bad sake, it depends on that particular product, how it is brewed and how it appears to you in the bottle. What um, does not help customers' judgment as well is, is the, is the price matrix, because it is true that traditionally um, in the last few years, during my Dagon Joe's, Dagon Joe's tended to be more expensive than the Gijos and more expensive than the Tokotay Junai and the Yunai or the Tokotay Masho, and so in terms of contributing to the perception that um, the higher the grade, it will show, we should say higher the grade, that a Gijo grade or a Dagon Joe grade was, was will be better than a lower grade if only because the price was higher, but of course the reason why the price is higher is slightly different or there are other reasons, um, the cost of polishing in terms of raw material, in terms of energy, in terms of time, the way the sake is made itself, the way fermentation is controlled. Now what I do love and I know that both of you love that as well is to see all these sake is coming on the market today with a very high polishing ratio, which means that the rice has not been polished much, so it certainly cannot qualify for a Dagon Joe or the Dagon Joe category, but still, it manages to attract prices which are superior to such types, which just means that, um, and when I just hope that it will in time change consumers perception as well. And also a lot of brews are, um, taking a stand against the grading system, because we're talking about higher and lower grades based on the polishing rate, not as we're talking about the craftsmanship or the end result, which is subjective anyway. You would, what for you is the best sake is, no, it's sick, you're right, it's the best sake and vice versa, you know. So, um, I, I'm really enjoying that a lot of brews are now just releasing all of their sake as a blanket, generally, which is designed to remove that, uh, that misconception in the market that by using the grading system, you're denoting superior quality and a product, by naming all of their sake, regardless of the polishing rate, as Jun Mai, as denoting how it was produced, rather than getting into this kind of complicated and perhaps misleading to consumer, um, technique, uh, or tendency to use the grading system to name their sake. And I, because ultimately, it shouldn't be about the adjectives that are used on the bottle, it should be about the flavor and the glass that decides where the sake is superior for you or not. So Sebastian, I think you also introduce a lot of people to Japan and to sake, so how do you see them discovering it? How do I see them discovering it? Um, so it's sometimes frustrating for me for, when I, when I see some of the people that I, that I, that I introduce sake to a month or, or years after, and I stand. So how many bottles have you bought this year? And they say, But when we go to the Japanese restaurant, we're going to have a little bit of sake. And I would certainly encourage consumers to enjoy the past of learning to discover sake and discover sake with all sorts of food. And here again, it's not complicated to pair sake with any sort of food. Sake is an extremely food-friendly beverage and will be a great match for most of what you prefer. I mean, there is nothing that will not be right, but it might be excellent, very good or good or just average. But certainly do, I mean, just enjoy that process and the challenge of buying sake and pairing with whatever you could get home. Absolutely. I mean, that's how I learned. You know, I love the interchange between sake and food. And there's no right or wrongs. It's really just a process and a journey of wonderful journey of discovery. And certainly, I've seen people having a lot of fun with it. There was a whole trend in London a few years ago. There's some very famous Indian restaurants in the center of London where they don't have the right license and so it's bringing your own bottle. And people would get together in groups and like bring niguri or bring gingels in to pair with kind of quite spicy Indian cherries. And they would have a ton of fun doing that. And then, of course, there's cheese. I mean, I live in the kingdom of cheese in Switzerland. And you have the summary sake in Paris. And for the last number of years, they've had a cheese shop come and have a stand in the hole with the sake producers. And it's absolutely wonderful. And there's also a sake event in Milan organized by the the sake challenge there. And there's sponsored by the Parmesan association. And I assume then like to Italians, there's nothing more familiar than having a piece of parmesan in your hands. And then that kind of grounds them as they run around the whole trying to find what pairs best. My first sake pairings were always with cheese, but that said, I mean, that's a very sort of maybe perhaps a European comfort zone, but any kind of fermented products, but they'll harmonize. I've most fermented products will harmonize with with sake because it's it's like meets like, you know, so whether it's cheese or whether it's any other kind of fermented foods, for example. I really love a sweet Niguarri sake with and kimchi is fabulous. The best thing to do about your favorite sake and non-Japanese food pairing. Yeah, I mean, I was you're offering me actually an opportunity to book one of what I those most and to introduce the next mess actually because one of my favorite one of my favorite pairing is strong tangents. Tangerine cheese with aged sake. And this is something where I think sake is unbeatable. I mean, there is another country of cheese. It's not only Switzerland, Arlene. It's called Normandy. That's where I'm from. And in other countries. It's not like a cheese politics coming out. And believe me, you can do wonders with with Norman cheese or burgundy cheese and and sake as well. And I and I do really love aged sake in particular in that context. And so our next me is sake should be consumed young. I mean, we've we've heard that. I must say it often comes from the fact that there are messages coming from the industry from from breweries from retailers that you should buy and open the bottle soon that you shouldn't let it age. So you shouldn't let it stay too long before opening it. And I guess that's one of the factory, but not the only one that contributed to that image that sake is not a product that. Right. I mean, between age, sake, that's a reduced for the purposes of aging, for example, of course you or a circuit that's purposely aged at the brewery and released aged. And because they're wanting to impart, you know, a deeper or richer flavor, or whatever aim they have of storing it at the brewery and releasing into the market. And I do also agree with Sebastian as a thing that we're missing the general public is missing on a wonderful section of this very rich, almost perfumed category of sake, which is so wonderful with I really enjoy course you with various cuisines from Asia. Actually, like the you the you mommy bomb, bomb dishes need kind of a mommy bomb sake to pee with it. I love it. Of course, with cheese, but I also really enjoy course you with sushi as well. It can be fantastic with sushi. Again, they're hard and fast rules on this, but it's a really wonderful style of sake that is great addition to a meal. But I think a lot of there's a lot of misconceptions around age of sake. There are some sake that are supposed to be drunk very quickly upon released from the brewery and those are the seasonal sake baratoes. They are usually unpasterized and they are quick to maybe fall out of optimum condition. So it's especially something like shiburitate or freshly filtered sake that has had no maturation time as the first run from the brewery. It's put on to the market. It's very juvenile. It's got the bright crisp, slightly childish flavor that is the potential of future greatness that's going to come from the brewery throughout the year. And it's ideally drunk seasonal styles are ideally drunk within the three months of the season that they're produced in. But by and large, especially if you're dealing with pasteurized sake, if it's stored well, and this is very important, if the sake is stored well, if it's stored at a temperature that and it's kept away from UV light, the sake has got the potential to maintain its condition for a longer amount of time. Really good storage. You can drink sake that two years later, it's developed a little bit maybe more complexity, but it's still in really great condition. That brings us back to your previous point about education and do people really understand what's required for the storage. Another thing that I get a lot, another myth is that unpasteurized sake is the best sake. Well, again, there's no hard and fast blanket statements of yes or no, right or wrong. An unpasteurized sake is or a namazake. I think a lot of people mistranslate namazake to mean fresh sake. So wonder if that's also part of the misconception, namazake, unpasteurized sake. Oh, fresh. No, it just means it hasn't been pasteurized, it's mist one of the production steps. So it's usually it has a slightly more, I call it a more natural aroma. It's not quite as focused as the aroma of a sake that has been pasteurized. The product itself is possibly got possibly has a little bit more of a nuanced slightly more character driven flavor because it hasn't been pasteurized or maybe it hasn't been chagol find. But these are all generalized statements that a sake that is unpasteurized is wonderful when you drink it if it's been stored in good condition because you can enjoy those subtle nuances that natural aroma, that natural. That kind of I'd call it a more vivid aroma and flavor that comes from missing out the pasteurization process, but also by not pasteurizing sake, you are exposing the sake to which is a very highly sensitive beverage to a lot of instability. So by not pasteurizing it, the sake can have the potential to turn very quickly into pick up oxidized notes that we're not the brewers and tension. And then this is this is one of the reasons why we don't see it outside of Japan very much I think. And you mentioned an important expression which is producers intentions and I think one of the drivers behind the facts that the industry, the retailers tell you you should consume the sake. Right now it's because producers with tellers fear that if you do not store it well, you will consume something which is far from what the producers intentions were when he or she released the product. Absolutely right, so that's absolutely right. That is really by and large the reason why producers will give this sales guideline or even put the sales guideline in the contracts because there is the assumption that the stock is not going to be stored once it's exported from Japan. And so they will ask people to prioritise turnover of sale. And there is substantial evidence to support their fears, unfortunately. So if we can all start to maybe do a bit more due diligence on the logistics of how our sake is getting to us and asking questions from our local employers about the temperature, the thus storing the sake add or they're using contracts to deliver to the restaurant or checking with the restaurant how the sake is stored. And maybe as consumers asking those kinds of questions will make the people and the logistics chain understand that the consumers are a little bit more sophisticated than they think they are and start providing those kinds of necessary cold chain solutions and cold chain storage and delivery options that sake really really needs. And so you were talking as well, Rebecca, about translation and about how certain terms get translated into English. And that certainly, you see that with Ginmai because if you get a very straight translation it comes out as pure rice. And like I said, the words pure natural, they tend to kind of be very attractive to people. But as far as Ginmai goes, is that really the case? Is that they're getting something that is missing in a sake that has alcohol in the ingredients list? Well, I would I would summarize that 99.9% of consumers would not know what add to 10 sake means. I think that what's the people who, as I say, have done a little bit of sake research and stumbled across the special designation grades and come across the pyramid that shaped that we talked about earlier, which is also cut in half. One side is the Ginmai half, and one side is the other half. The half that has in the top grades a very small percentage of brawler's alcohol added. And I think that this is perception that, oh, well, why would you add brawler's alcohol to sake? That mustn't be real sake. That must be fortified sake or something that sounds not like real sake or traditional sake. But there is historical evidence that supports that adding a little bit of distilled alcohol to a brew to refine the aroma and flavour has been part of the brewing, has been used in brewing since the Edo period because flavour and aroma molecules dissolve in alcohol. So by adding a very small amount of brawler's alcohol, you can really, with just a small amount, you can refine the aroma, pull it together, create a much more smooth expression on the palate. And I think that one of the reasons people think that adding alcohol added brawler's alcohol to a sake is maybe poor quality. It's because at the very bottom of that pyramid that we've been talking about with the grades is more than 60% of the sake, the production in Japan is called Futsushu, which is table sake. I think that's probably the best way to translate it. And once the more recent history is that after World War II, which as you remember had a devastating effect on Japan for many reasons, especially the agriculture belts of Japan, there wasn't enough rice to go around. And so brawlers were forced to dose their tanks with brawler's alcohol in order to increase the yield without having to draw on rice stocks. And so brawlers had to produce this Futsushu style sake in order to sell this sake onto the market. And this was by and large to practice until the 60s I believe. So I think perhaps there has been this idea that any sake that's had a little bit of brawler's alcohol added to is this, you know, slightly more misproduced style sake as a misnomer. But then there's also misnomas about what Futsushu is or this table sake, because actually some of my favourite sake is Futsushu. It is a really easy to drink approachable style. That is a great one bottle, one and done bottle that I can put on the table, chilled and joy, you know, going up to room temperature heated up at the end. And it's a really versatile, everyday drink, just like we drink supermarket wine around the world. But this issue is kind of like that, it's a very utilitarian, easy, grab-and-go kind of beverage that unfortunately has got this image of being poor quality or not real sake, because of this perception that adding alcohol to the brew is not traditional or how real sake is made. And so Sebastian, I think you mentioned as well that there can be reasons why sake's classes of Futsushu that really have nothing to do with the quality. Yeah, I mean, indeed, you can be a Futsushu because you have a lot of alcohol added and what the brews we're looking for is a cheap to-make product to be sold on the mass market. I mean, this may have been the case in the past, but you can be a Futsushu because you're not respecting one of the administrative rules associated with being a premium sake and a clear example, an easy example, is that rice that is used to brew a Tokutemi Shoshu so a special designation sake, a premium sake, is rice that needs to be inspected and receives certain grade. Well, there are lots of sake out there, maybe not the majority, but there are still lots of sake out there which are brewed from rice that has not been inspected. For very good reasons, and such sake cannot be traded premium sake or Tokutemi Shoshu so before just leaving the bottle on the side because it doesn't say it is premium sake so by default it is Futsushu just look at it a bit more carefully and try to understand what it is and why it is proposed to you by a shop or by a restaurant, for example. In the source one, then you can look at the ingredients list. And if you can see enough on a Futsushu that the ingredients are identical to a Ginma, like it's just water, rice, rice with kouji, then you can say like, "Okay, it might be classes of Futsushu but it hasn't had alcohol added, it hasn't had additives." And so you can then say like, "Okay, this is Futsushu for some other reason." Oh, you can just ignore it together. You can just ignore it all together and just enjoy what's in the bottle in front of you because I think what we've kept on saying is ignore all, you know, you don't need to worry about all of these words and these descriptives that have been created for a reason by the industry, usually tax. So, you know, you can just ignore them and just engage with the bottle in front of you, you know. And then of course, if you're curious, go down, go down and grab a hold. But I think that it's probably just ease for me. And again, there's no right or wrong, this is just my opinion. I think it's probably easier to have a great sake experience if you ignore a lot of those, you know, adjectives that are used for marketing or taxation reasons. That's what you agree? I agree, however, sometimes, I mean, some of the questions that people ask us is, "Okay, I'm in a shop. What should I choose? What can I choose? How can I choose?" Because of course, nobody has the time to try the whole shop or the money to buy the whole shop. So, that's when possibly looking at the label can help you to make a decision. And I fully agree with you, Aline, that if you're in that dynamic, so Rebecca, then looking at the information, not only, but not the grade. I mean, the grade is one of the information, but looking at all the information will help you to get a better idea of what this circuit potentially can be. I actually find that more than, this is just my personal experience, so it's not a hard and fast role, is that I actually find looking at where the target was produced, giving me a better hall mark for what potentially kind of flavour profile I could be experiencing. Do you mean the area of the brewery? Yeah, because if I look at the map of Japan, I use that as kind of a really rough kind of guide. And far north, heavy heavy snowfall during winter, very very cold during the brewing season, so the temperature of brewing is very very cold and there's very few microbes other than the ones that are required for the brewing process, alive and active in the air. So the flavour profile of the sake tends to be light tight with a little bit of sweetness, but quite crisp clean, but slightly full of style, in the mountain areas of the north, anything going towards the coastline will be much more clean and refreshing. Now you take that idea and you move it all the way down the country, sake that's brewed in cold temperatures in the northern parts of the country, tends to, not always, have a slightly lighter, more refreshing flavour, the sake that's brewed in the mountainous inner areas of Japan tends to have a slightly richer flavour profile, then the sake that is brewed on the coastlines, why? Because in wintertime, breweries and communities were isolated from the coastline and the ability to source fresh fruit during winter and so the flavour profile of the sake of the community tended to be sedated towards eating salted cured smoked foods, pickled foods, brined foods, even game meat, whereas on the coastline when there was more access to boats and supplies, they would have more access to fish, maybe more fisher ingredients, so the flavour profile of the locals tended to be lighter and crisper, more refreshing. As you move south west, the temperature of the country warms up and so the temperature brewing during winter also increases and so just the nature of that temperature shift can lend itself to a more robust fermentation process in the breweries, that said most breweries are temperature controlled these days, but traditionally the sake of the area would have been richer, fuller, broader, a little bit more punchy because the fermentation process would have been more robust given the warmer temperature during the brewing season and again you can apply that same idea of as you move south west, so that's sort of one of the ways that I, I personally use to get a very, very, very rough idea of a sake when I don't know anything about it. I don't necessarily like from talking to people who are actually brewing, they've certainly always described the addition of alcohol to me as a tool, and so if I talk to brewers when I'm in Japan and I say to them like look there's this focus on on june mai that I see in Europe and sometimes also june mai in nama and people see it as superior in some way and the feedback I get from them is always not to us, like they don't see producing a june mai as being in some sense superior to producing asake with added alcohol, but I think also it's important to to understand how much alcohol is that, particularly if you're talking about a premium grade non june mai sake, the amount of alcohol added, the legal limit is extremely small and people won't even go up to that, they use as much as is necessary for that polishing effect to get the change in the aroma and flavor and texture that they want to get by adding the alcohol, and so it's not about boosting production, it's not about fortification even, it's about the intention, which is what we've come back to several times, what do they want to produce, and you see breweries releasing boxes where you have pretty much the same sake in a june mai version and a non june mai version, and to them it's just a variation, it's a way being playful, it's a way being showing what the sake can do in these two different formats, and so that makes it even more of a mystery to me why people, particularly outside Japan, maybe inside Japan as well, are so fixated on june mai. Well, I think that in blind tastings, more often than not, the alcohol added style for the ones that are most popular, and do you know why? It's because most people will also, and this is the same for the wine world, I'm sure, will say, I don't like sweet wines, I don't like sweet sake, I want something that's refreshing and dry. Well, if you're looking for something that's refreshing and dry, probably an alcohol added style is the style that you want to go for, because they do have a slightly crisper, the alcohol added styles almost have like a diamond like finish, I describe like alcohol added styles as having like a tight front and a tight finish almost like a diamond, and so in tastings, people are responded to, oh, that's got that kind of refreshing taste that I like, and when it's revealed that all of the sake that they like, alcohol added styles that's like, well, that wasn't fear, because you know, this is where I think that it is kind of important to maybe not worry so much about what the labels are, because when we don't know what the information is, we kind of like it, you know. Yeah, I was thinking, I mean, to, to, and I guess I mean, you will agree with me, but I think one of the reasons why you have this judgment is because often that alcohol is seen as an ingredient that is foreign to the sake brewing, to the, not the sake brewing culture actually is not, but to this, this story about rice and water, because often, more often than not, it is not actually brewed from, it is not distilled from, from, from rice, but it is distilled from sugar molasses. Now it is pure alcohol, and that's what's really important to me, but still I guess to maybe partly answer to your, to your question or point, this idea that it is sort of a foreign ingredient or addition, contribute to the fact that it is that the beverage itself is seen as less pure. I would really like to, one day, be successful and campaign in the government, so far I've been unsuccessful, and promoting or subsidizing the use of broken rice or unsalable rice, which is usually used for feed or goes into other products. For the use as the base for distilled brewers sake, and it would be a great way for farmers to feel as though when they have bit half a sort of broken rice that there is actually a really valuable value added by that they could sell their rice off and for it to be utilized within circuit products, and I think that that's something that would also help to maybe, if this was to become a nationwide thing, where brewers used domestically grown rice that, you know, couldn't be used because it was broken or whatever reasons, and that is still process, then this, it is technically brewers alcohol made with domestically grown rice, and that could maybe help to dispel some of these. It is a little bit weird, thinking that there is a brewers alcohol that's made from something like sugar cane, so it could help to address some of those consumer questions or the discrimination in the market by creating some kind of solutions like that domestically. I fully agree with that, and it would actually strengthen the story dramatically. And I'm sure I've seen one brewery doing that, they actually distill their own sake and then use that as they are their brewers sake. And also it can be done with sake casserole as well, doesn't have to be the rice. You can just, you can distill your sake casserole to use for the brewers alcohol, so it's almost like creating no waste system, because often sake casserole will be sold off to pig farmers or to be used in, you know, the food chain some other way, but it actually can be reused within the brewery to create the base for distilling. And leave some of the pigs, I love, I love, I love, sorry, sorry, but those say some sake casserole for the pigs, promise. This usually come in human history from us not knowing, you know, why does the sun rise? Well, the ancient Egypt's it was because rare gotten a bowed and sailed across the sky, you know, because we didn't know things. We filled the gaps with information that gave us comfort or knowledge that gave us comfort. So I understand that there are a lot of myths around psyche, which means that more education needs to be done, but also maybe sometimes there's, knowledge is not always the beyond end, your personal journey is actually a really wonderful part of the psychoprocess. For me, I didn't know anything, and I was all just about trial and error. And because I didn't have any preconceived ideas of what sake was or what I was supposed to be experiencing, I think I came towards exactly the very open mind and they just gave me exponential enjoyment. So I do agree that there are lots of myths around sake because there's not a lot of, maybe we're not getting enough information out there in two, domestic and international communities, but I think also trust yourself, trust there are no rights or wrongs, what is the most delicious sake for you is the best sake, keep exploring, keep enjoying, get onto the sake bridge and go over into sake land. Is that true? Oh, I mean, what can I add? I mean, I can add, well, come to craft sake week, maybe possibly. Yeah, I'll be there for 12 days, see you there. Thanks a bastion. Excellent. There would be sake land. Sake heaven. Well, it's only going to be sake heaven if you're all there. When is it? So it's April 18th until the 29th. Okay, it's probably too soon for me. I don't think my visa is going to be ready until May, next time. So there will, there will be a lot of, a lot of sake and there will be no tests. There will be no tests taken at the end of the day, just come and enjoy. Excellent. This has been a pleasure. No, same here. Thank you very much. Thank you for your time, especially when you're busy. Most appreciated. Well, thank you both. The view, it was really fun having a chat. And hi, Felay, our little chat helped maybe dispel simists, maybe created new ones, who knows. And that's all for this episode of Sake on Air. So thank you very much to our co-hosts Rebecca and Sebastian. And please take a moment to review and rate Sake on Air on your podcast platform of choice to help more people find the show. And if you have any questions or comments or more myths to be busted, feel free to send them by email to [email protected] or message Sake on Air on Instagram, X or Facebook or find us on YouTube. We'll be back soon with very more with more Sake on Air. So come by for now. This episode has been made possible with the generous support of the Japan Sake and show-to-makers association. Sake on Air is produced by Export Japan and our team is Justin Potts, Mio Ota, Cindy Bissig, Sebastian LeWan, Jon Gottner, Chris Hughes, Rebecca Wilson-Lye, Marie Magata, Christopher Pellegrini, Arlene Lyons, Chusley Mata, and Frank Walter.