Burying Memories: The Kite Runner by Khaled Hosseini, Part 2 (Chapters 8-11)

Hello, welcome to the lit English lit podcast, a podcast in which I and sometimes one of my colleagues spend some time discussing the literature that our students have been reading. We are on episode two of the kite runner. Today we're going to be looking at chapters eight through 11 of the novel by Khaled Hosseini and these four chapters really demonstrate a big shift in the novel. The first two chapters are set in Afghanistan and also briefly Pakistan and then the second two in the United States of America as Amir and Baba leave Afghanistan and move to the United States. So there's a lot of contrast in the setting. We see a lot of changes in these chapters and we really see for the first time the impact of the past, Amir's past actions coming back to haunt him in many different ways. So I hope you're ready for engaging robust conversation with myself. Miss Sharp is joining me again, my thanks to her and so here we go with chapters eight through 11 of Khaled Hosseini's The kite runner. Okay, well here we are again, a weekly conversation. Miss Sharp is in the house. Good morning. Good morning. All right, so chapters eight through 11. Are we going to just go straight to chapter nine? Well, okay, I feel like there's so much stuff that's set up in eight that make nine that much more heartbreaking and devastating. So I feel it's worth talking about eight before we go tonight. I think the part that stood out to me was like if you're comparing Amir and Hassan, like they're both suffering from depression based off of the events that happened previously, but it's like no one's communicating. That's the biggest issue that this whole set of chapters is that no one is communicating and you're like screaming at them. Right. And Hassan's not even communicating with his own father because Ali is asking asks Amir, hey, do you know what's happened? Do you know what's going on? Something's going up. Amir just like snaps and he's like really like not very nice. Are you going to like the stove or am I going to freeze the death? Right. He pulls power rinking when he's upset, like he pulls rank and like it's so gross. Yeah. But Hassan still does his work. What's amazing, he doesn't like, I mean, he still fulfills his job. He ions. He makes breakfast. Yeah. He just can't face Amir, right? Well, I'm sure that those activities are mindless. Like he can put himself into those activities, like, okay, you know, at eight o'clock, I make the non. Right. Right. One, I spread the marmalade. Right. It's very regimented. And so when he has nothing to do, normally he plays with Amir. Right. Amir is icing him out because of, you know, he can't deal with his own emotions. Right. And so like to be alone with your thoughts after what you've been through, like I can understand why his body is just like showing him down. Yeah. Yeah. And then we have the trip to, I don't know how do you say it. Jalalabad. Jalalabad. I loved trying to say it. But it's just all the lalas in it. Just made me excited. Jalalabad. And so he's in the car. And he, it's like the first time we get that physical manifestation of him being cramped and like tight. And then he's in the car. He's crammed in the very back seat, which is like my least favorite place to be. With the annoying twins. Yeah. With the twins that are like pushing in on him to get at each other. And then his dad is talking about the kite tournament. So he's living in this horrific moment. And he just gets sober while he's like physically ill. And yeah. Yeah. Even what he thought would be, you know, the winning the tournament when he, well, he thought would be, that would, that's the solution to everything. Everything's going to be great after that. He can't even, he can't even enjoy it. Yeah. And he, you know, his, his attempt to kind of assuage his own guilt by, by spending time with Baba by going off spending time with family. And even in there, he's, he can't, he's miserable. Right. Absolutely miserable. Yeah. And he gets to the point where like he wants to say something, but he's so passive that he says it while everyone sleeping. Yes. And then, and then he like loses his ability to sleep, right? Like he just, he's so passive and so removed that it just, you know, it makes, it makes everything worse in that sense. And the quote, I like, I loved it. I understood the nature of my new curse. I was going to get away with it. Yeah. How is, how is getting away with something that's your punishment? Yeah. And of course, I mean, it makes, makes perfect sense. Absolutely. I agree. And then, and then that leads us into his, his like, wait, do they, I'm trying to figure out the pulmagranit, does the scene of the pulmagranit tree? Yeah. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So he finally, like, connects with Austin as like, let's go up this bill. And the way I was thinking of this is like, he so badly wants punishment. And, and but he has never actually said to Hassan, Hey, I saw what happened. And I did nothing. And I feel bad about it. And, but Hassan knows that a mere knows. Yes. And like, because no one's saying anything, and it's not, I don't think it's Hassan's place to say anything to a mere about it. Like, no, I, no, I didn't think so. And so, like, so then you have a mere throwing these pulmagranits, because now here's a literal, observable fact that you can give me retribution for. Right. Right. And then how does Hassan respond? He doesn't have to himself. It's so heartbreaking. A thousand times, yes. Like, oh, yes. Right. I wish he would hit me, right? I wish, I wish he'd give me the punishment I craved. So maybe I'd finally sleep at night. And even then, there's a, there's a selfishness in his response. You know, it's not like he wants punishment out of a sense of justice and a sense of, you know, atonement and fixing things with Hassan. He wants it for his own, so he can feel better about himself. Yes. It reminds me of those friends, like, where you learn something. Like, oh, you know, your boyfriend's been DMing this girl. Do I tell you? Like, because you're going to be so upset when I tell you, and like, maybe you'll be mad at me, but if I don't tell you, is that even worse? Like, it's like that weird crossroad. Yeah. And, and, I mean, one thing that I didn't notice, you know, when it says, I don't know how many times I hit him. Well, first of all, he says he calls him a coward. Yeah. Which, I mean, yeah, I mean, so many levels of irony there. I don't know how many times I hit him, all I know when I finally stopped exhausted and panting. So he's, I mean, this physically, this is a, I mean, there's a, there's a parallel here with this assault. I mean, this is almost a betrayal and, you know, expression of power in an assault that parallels assets to some degree, right? Yeah. You know, and so he's doing this to the extent that it's physically tiring him out. And Hassan, you know, like with the assault by SF, it ends up smeared in red, right? And then, yeah, that, that, you know, beautiful moment, right? Well, I'm beautiful, the horrible moment where he crushes it against his own forehead, which, you know, requires some, requires quite a lot of force. Yeah. And then you have, it says the red dripping down his face, like blood. So you have that crown of thorns, right? And have the blood dripping down. Like, I mean, it's not his final sacrifice that he makes, but it's very clear that he is being crucified at this moment. Right. Yeah, it's, it's, I wonder why he take, why does he go up, you know, why does he go up the hill at that moment? You know, he realizes it's a mistake. I mean, Hassan goes because he thinks it's a good idea, you know, why does he, you know, he says, I asked Hassan to go up the hill with me, told him I wanted to read him a new story had written. And I, you know, I don't know, I feel like I don't know, it's, it's just clearly it's not going to, it's not going to work out. Well, Hassan was his best friend, right? Like, he was the person who knew him so well that he knew what dream to talk about. He knew what, so I think it was like, he looked at him and he needed him to help him. Yeah. But the thing he needed to help with was so horrible. Yeah. So that he, like, he couldn't actually ask him for help. Yeah. And then the birthday party. No, jeez. Dude, the park, when, when Ahsa walks in. Yeah, right. And he's like, you know, corralling his parents. Right. - Right, yes, yeah. - And it's just so clear. And then Baba, of course, Baba is like, oh, Assef, you're playing soccer? - Assef John, right? So he uses that term of endearment. - Right, term of endearment, exactly. - Yeah, it's like, and because Assef is everything that Baba wants for a mirror. - And conflata him, that whole, I bet you could still play center for it if you wanted to. - Uh-huh, it's one of those, it's so cinematic. This whole party scene to me, I can see it very crystal clear. - Yes, absolutely. - All the way of the fireworks. And you can just see a mirror sitting back and watching, like, understanding how Baba feels and understanding who Assef is. And that coming together, just being so disgusting. Like, come and play volleyball with me. You can bring Hassan. Like, it's so, so, so, so, pathic. Yes. And the gift, right? - Yeah. - And I wonder, I think the other part is when, you know, in a situation like this as well, you're much more so than in our culture, you know, politeness and greeting someone properly. And just going through the niceties is so important. The fact that a mirror can't even do that is clearly, you know, humiliating for Baba. Right, he finds it a very rude, you know, and, you know, it says, you know, Baba smoking a low voice, the one he took on whenever I embarrassed him in public. You know, aren't you going to thank him? That was very considerate. - Yeah, I think, like, the core of this is, like, Baba doesn't see what's, like, see anyone. - Right. - He does, like, I think he's so wrapped up in his own myth that he doesn't actually see the people around him. - Yes. - Like, because I don't have a line specifically, but a mirror was saying that, like, you could see into Ausef's eyes. And you looked into the eyes, you could see the darkness that was there. - Oh, yes. - And Baba doesn't see that, 'cause Baba is, he's a glazer, like, he glazes over a mirror. If he truly understood his son - Right. - And he saw how his son was acting with this kid, he would be like, okay, something's off, right? But instead, he's like a shiny tall boy who's, you know, sparkling conversationalist. And he, like, it's just like, why aren't you, like him? Why aren't you, like, being polite? - I know it's the '70s, but blue slacks as well. I don't know. It just, the blue reminds me of the kite. - Oh, yeah. - His eyes betrayed him when I looked into them, the facade falter, this top page 97, revealed a glimpse of the madness hiding behind them. - Yeah. And to me, like, you know, there's so much emphasis on eyes. Like, if we think of the eyes or what captured that, like, moment for a mirror and he remembers, also. - Watching Tallah. - Yeah. And then there's the lamb. Like, there's so much or the sheep or whatever it was. But, like, if this was Ali, and if Ali was, like, watching Hassan interact with Asif, like, he would have seen the discomfort right away and he would have known to intervene. You know what I mean? Like, Baba is just such a glazer. - Well, and there's a difference between looking and watching and understanding, you know, and so much of this novel is about people watching and just seeing things and not doing anything. - Yeah. - You know, the image, right? You know, you've got this, again, it's almost like a, it's almost like great gas speed. You know, the fireworks going off, right? And, but it's, it's, it's disingenuous. It doesn't, you know, the mood of celebration doesn't work, right? - Yeah. - And then you just have this, this flash where you see Asif and Wali being served by Hassan. - Yeah. - Asif grinning, needing Hassan in the chest with a knuckle. - Like, it's the perfect detail to close that part. This party that is not for Amir. It's for Baba. - Right, exactly, yeah. - Yeah, and so you have this party that is for him where he gets all these presents, all this blood money, right? - Yeah. - But he's, he's not actually for him. And so to close it with watching Hassan have to serve Asif is-- - Yeah, it's cool. - And then, and then the last line of that chapter, right, is like, then mercifully darkness. Like, he, it just, he needs ignorance, right? Like, that's the, the kind of darkness he needs. What I had a question about was at the party he talks to Rahim Khan, and Rahim tells him the story of the Hazara woman that he wanted to marry. And like, and he says, like, his advice to him, right, is like, in the end, the world always wins. And I got the impression that he was giving him the advice that like, you know, they have to be gone for you to be better. Like, I don't, I guess I just don't understand. Like, I feel like Rahim has a purpose for telling this story to Amir. But Amir takes it as I need to get rid of Hassan. But I don't, I guess I just don't understand the purpose in him telling him this story. - Well, foreshadowing. - Okay. (laughing) - So, I mean, so yes. I mean, I think Rahim Khan, you're right. I mean, and I think, I don't wanna like speak out of turn here. - Okay, so there's some spoilery. Let's just, we can just paint it as foreshadowing. - Well, yeah, I mean, she go back to chapter one. - Uh-huh. - And it talks about Rahim Khan calling him from Pakistan, right, in 2001. So, yeah, you're right. Rahim Khan, he's this, he's the archetypal. He's the messenger, right? He's the guy who gives, he gives Amir his first book, you know, to write things in. He reads his first story. He's like, wow, you've got a gift, you know, you know what irony is. - Yeah. - And then, I think, yeah, I think it's also indicative of I think there is a almost kind of misanthropic way that they have to end up looking at Afghanistan. You know, particularly once, you know, the Russians invade and, and, and, and, and I think, I don't know necessarily that it's about, oh, you've got to now lie and, and, and, you know, frame Hasan for something, but it's, I think it's this idea that in the real world, you know, that relationship that Hasan and Amir had was, was completely unusual. - Yeah. - Right, was, was not normal. - Yeah. - And, and people like SF winning, that's unfortunately, that's normal. - Okay, I, so I can see him trying to give him this, like, you know, sparsed out, like, it's okay that your friendship is not working out. Like, like, he's talking about, like, friendship, but not really, like, understanding the full extent of their, of their disagreement. - That's happening. - Yeah, and I think when it says he looked at me for a long time, like, he was waiting his black bottomless eyes, hinting at an unspoken secret between us for a moment. I almost did tell him, almost told him everything, but then what would he think of me? He'd hate, hate me, and rightfully. Yeah, and I think, you know, he's, he's drinking his scotch. You know, Rahim is kind, is, Rahim Khan's definitely he's a worldly man. But again, the, the, there's just a lot of parallels with, you know, the different people and their relationships with Hazaras and the way that, you know, people are interacting with each other, and then, of course, later on, you know, Amir meets this, the swap meet princess. And I think we, we know there's probably something important is going to happen with her. - Yeah. - And so I think this is a passage that, without giving too much away, you probably want to come back to once the book's over. - Yeah. - And whether Amir actually looks at this and then comes up with his plan. But I think, you know, his plan, it suggests on page 93 that he already has a plan. - Okay. - Right, because it says, what am I going to do with you, Hassan? What am I going to do with you? By the time the tears dried up and I trudged down the hill, I knew the answer to that question. - Oh, I gotcha. - So I think something's kind of already in mind. You know, and then he's like, is it then that he asks his dad, we should get news. When does he say we should get new servants? - So that, I feel like it's beforehand, isn't it? - Right, exactly. - It's like when they're like hanging out and he's finally got what he wants, but it's not good. - Right. - Yeah, it's right before the pomegranate trees. That's also, you can see how that idea has already kind of planted. - Yeah. - I think Raheem Khan is talking more about, just, hey, this is the way the world goes. He's talking about love as well, so yeah, I'm not sure that there's a nice answer to that. - No, to be in a mere perspective going into like chapter nine, I feel like it's so hard because it's like, so you've seen everything through his perspective. You understand his emotional state, and so it's like you understand why he does what he does, But it's still the whole time you're just like hit the brakes hit the brakes stop like like it's just so heartbreaking. - Yeah, and I think it's, and notice how he's, all the time he's looking at his bedroom window. So this idea of like looking out into a, you know, the window separates you from some things, it protects you from other things. You're not there, it's almost like you're watching something unfold, which of course is what at the end, it talks about it's like a Hindi movie. - Yeah, well he's that bystander, right? Like he's constantly created, like this chaos is all created by him and around him. And he just watches it play out. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I think the, I mean, I think this is, I mean, you text me about this. I mean, I think this is far worse, right? What he does, because he's, I mean, the irony is he's acting now. - Yeah. - But he's actually doing something. - Yeah. - What he's doing is the worst possible thing that's responded to in the most beautiful way by Hassan. - Oh gosh, of course he responds in the best way, right? And it's all, it's just one word. Like that's his last word, right? Yes, that's, that's his last word that we're hearing from him in this moment. So like, and that's what he's always said to him, right? It's like I'll do anything for you. And I think to me, where it hurt the most was knowing that Ali knew. - Yes. - And to me that I was like, oh, this, 'cause then again, Baba doesn't understand. He doesn't know what's going on and it's so out of his control and to see him break down so heavily. Like, must have been, I feel like that had to have been shocking for a mere but he's so removed being in that room. - Yeah. - Like he, he doesn't actually do anything. - Well, that you're right, there's that contrast. Ali drew Hassan to him, curled his arm around his son's shoulder. It was a protective gesture and I knew whom Ali was protecting him from. - Yeah. - And the contrast between how Ali and Hassan interact as father and son and how Baba and Amir, you know, that's not, that is not a, an act, the thing that Baba would do. Baba would take Hass Amir on his knee when he's ready to teach him something important or he's done something that Amir approves of in some way. This is, this is not, no, I'm protecting you. - Yeah. - Almost what he should have done when Hassan showed up at the party and he noticed that something was, - Yeah. - So he should, you know, putting an arm around him. - Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then there, like, you know, Baba goes to forgive him and Amir thinks, like, Baba could forgive that then why couldn't he forgive me for not being the son he always wanted. And it's like, I think that's why Amir doesn't do anything 'cause all roads lead back to Baba. - Right. - Right, like, he's so jealous. And he, yeah, I have a conspiracy theory and I'm gonna put it in writing here. - Okay, there we go. - Okay, readers, I've only read up to chapter 12. I do not know what is gonna happen in the future. Part of me wants to know is like, is Hassan really the son of Ali or is he Baba's kid? 'Cause, I mean, we know that that woman had loose morals. - Right. - Like, he's just the way he's so protective of him. - Right. - No, I don't know. That's my conspiracy theory. I feel like there's some, I feel like they're actually brothers. - Look as all roads lead back to Baba. - Yeah, okay. Now, Jonathan has really given me no reaction at all. So, I don't know if I'm gonna-- - Her face, right here. - So, I just want the record to show now that I am on page 142. - Okay. - That is my prediction. My other prediction is that the SWAT Meet Princess is somehow related to other people as well. But like, that's just, that's where I'm at. That's where I'm at. Just wanted the right to show that. - Okay, absolutely. Yeah, I think, you're right, I think Baba's response, you know, right, bookended with, you know, it starts with Baba and I forgive you. - Yeah. - And I think, yes, I think that's complex. And, but I think when a mirror is responding, I think we as the reader are just kind of like psh. Like, oh, this is what, now this is what bothers you, right? Like, you know, and I think it's really well done, but I think it's important, the idea of theft. But of course, Hassan hasn't stolen anything. So, it makes sense for Baba to forgive, to forgive. - Yeah, yeah, so, oh, that's so true because it is an actual theft. Like, there's no sin that's been committed. - Right. - And the person he hasn't forgiven is a mirror, and a mirror hasn't done, like, a mirror stolen everything. - Right, yeah, and then the, you know, of you got the weather and season, it sets up with, again, that present tense, you know, this is what it's normally like in the summer. You know, all the things that they used to do, summer meant long school days, you know, make catching flies in your palm. But that shift, it rained the afternoon, Baba took Ali and Hassan. And again, imagine some rain here in San Diego, same kind of idea, highly unusual. And then, you know, obviously rain, grief, and it's just, it's horrible. - Yeah, I kind of looked at it, like, you have that, like, paradox of rain, right, where it's like, it's technically water, it's cleansing, but it's breathing more mud and buck. - Yeah. - And like, so I feel like you have that kind of like, paradox, like in that moment, it feels like a finishing final moment, but it's not, it's just all messier now. - Right, and as you can't, like, 'cause he's looking through, like, the slithering beads of rain, blurry glimpse of Hassan. And so he's looking through one window, in through another window into the car, right? And the last thing, you know, he can just see this kind of blurry glimpse of Hassan slumped, and use that word slump a couple of times, right? That kind of, just, that that emotion is just, you know, gone. - The image of him seeing his toys piled in the corner, that also really, like, wretched on my heart. Like, this idea that, like, they both-- - Oh, Hassan's toys, yeah. - Like, he left his toys there, and it's like, he's leaving behind that childhood, that all the things that he has kind of, like, earned for himself, and he's just, like, moved on. - Which he actually valued, right? Those, the toys that amir through in the corner, he didn't value, he didn't need them. - Yeah. - But Hassan clearly, 'cause there are probably some of his only possessions. - Yeah, yeah, I know. Oh, okay, so, I mean, that's bringing us, we're jumping time, we're in this. I feel like we almost need, like, a part two. - Yes, I think so. - Yeah. - Yeah, I think, obviously, you've got, I mean, just to make sure everyone understands, right? 'Cause I don't know if your students had questions about this. - Yeah. - Obviously, work, we're jumping forward, whatever it is, you know, four or five years, and, you know, this is them escaping, right? This communists, the Russians have invaded, and they have to leave, and they have to leave now, and I think sometimes it's hard to understand when people leave a country, particularly people with money. So, go, I can just get on a plane, you know, it's like, no, that's not how it works. - Especially because, like, the way visas work, in all of that sort of situation, you think of all the people that are currently trying to get out of Ukraine, and like, you can't, there's like a lottery system to get a visa, and then that's rigged, so, yeah. - So, this is what the rich people do. The rich people escape in the back of a truck or in, like, a fuel tank, right? And so, yeah, maybe we should do a part two. - Yeah. - Okay. - We'll come back. - Part two, coming up shortly. (upbeat music) - This episode of the Lit English Inglis Lit Podcast is brought to you by Singin' Audio. Quality audiobooks for all kinds of literature. One book listeners of the Lit English Inglis Lit Podcast, my, like, is Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, read by Jane Austen. - My dear, Mr. Bennett. - So, this lady to whom one day, have you heard that never feel part is let at last? - Mr. Bennett replied that he had not. - But it is! - Returned she, for Mrs. Long has just been here, and she told me all about it. - For me to follow 2020, although it might be a little sooner if we're stuck at home much longer. (upbeat music) Okay, so, part two. - Here we go. - Here we go, chapters 10 and 11, which I know about you, but my students didn't, we didn't talk about as much, because they were very much wanted to talk about chapters eight and nine. - Which, you know, goes to show you where we're in a part two, because we also wanted to talk about eight. - Exactly, exactly. - Yeah. - So, obviously the first thing I think that, well, my students were certainly kind of, not struggling with, but commenting on is like this flashboard, that's not flashboard, but it's just jump in the narrative. - Right. - We skip, you know, five, six years, just like that. - Yeah. - And, and even then, like, by the end of the following chapter, he's graduated from high school. - Right. - You know, at the age of whatever he's older, he's more 20. - 20, he's a disease. - Right, when he graduated from high school. So all of a sudden, we go from kind of early teens to leaving Afghanistan to Google. graduated from high school in the United States. - Right. - Running SWAT means. - Yeah. (laughing) - It's TBD, we will learn more about that. - Yes, yes. So I mean, I think one of the things that just in terms of just the narrative style, you know, 'cause Hussain uses a lot of flashback, right? He uses a lot of kind of dreams. And I think for me it's understanding that the intervening period, it's not like it's not important, but there may be a few important moments. But the past is definitely those first nine chapters. - Yes, yeah. Like those are the impactful moments that as our narrator is sitting back and reflecting on their life, like that's what's gonna be vivid for them. And so yes, it's gonna skip over, you know, the invasion of Russia and then they're, like just key moments of their kind of immigration to the US. But I think, because if you were to sit back and tell me about your life, like you're not gonna detail every single second. - Yes, and I think when you finish this, I think it's very powerful to go back and reread the first nine chapters, right? Because once things kind of move forward and there is resolution or lack of resolution to go back and then reread the first nine chapters to really see what, you know, all the clues and all the different kinds of things that happen, it's quite powerful, so. - Yeah, I feel like that's most literature, right? Like I think of things fall apart. Like you get to the end of things fall apart in that last paragraph. - Right. - And it makes the whole rest of the book make sense. - Yes. - Yeah. - So what stands out to maybe from chapter 10, I suppose? - For me, in chapter 10, the first moment that just immediately jumps out is when Baba is like ready to die for that woman who the Russian soldier who obviously is being paid under the rug to immigrate or to smuggle people out. And he uses that power to obviously abuse people who are in desperate situation. And Baba makes a very clear moral stand. He says, "Tell him I'll take 1,000 of his bullets before I let this indecency take place." And like it's very clear. And then later on, a mirror was like, like he's comparing it to the stand that he didn't take for a person. So like it's like very clear like, "Oh, that's the kind of person my dad is." And that's not who I am. Yeah, and then with just as if he didn't know, and just as if it wasn't clear enough the husband right kisses Baba's hand. - Yes. - Right? - Yeah. - Something that he's seen many times before. - Right. - And I just, yeah, the contrast is very clear. I like what he says beforehand. The Kareem translates. He says, "This is war, there's no shame in war." - Yeah. - And Baba says, "Tell him he's wrong." War doesn't negate decency. It demands it even more than in times of peace. - Yes. - Which I thought was a golden line, for sure. - Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that's why a lot of this is here. Like, 'cause obviously this is a transition like section of the narrative. Like we're transitioning to this next section of life. Like they really wanted us to understand Baba even better. - Yes. And I think this, probably this passage, this chapter perhaps more than any of the other so far is just full of really vivid description. You know, the description of the weather and the truck and then in the fuel tank, the description of like, yeah, how close and claustrophobic he feels. Yeah, 'cause it starts with them going into the basement, right? And then, and like, there's that crampness. Now my favorite book in the world is The Road by Cormac Garvey, so I have an aversion to basement. - Oh, yes, yes. - But the idea of like opening up and there's like a sea of people and basements is like horrifying to me. Like just, like, it's just so sad. And also, I mean, this idea of smuggling people, like even though we're in Pakistan at this point, is that where we're going? - Not yet, they're in Jalalabad. - Okay, Jalalabad going to Pakistan. - Yeah, and so like, but it reminds me of the stories that you hear from people who are trying to get out of Mexico coming to the United States. Like, it's like, there's this desperation and they get put in the most inhumane, horrible situations. - And these are the wealthy people. - Exactly. - These are the ones who can afford to pay for people's smugglers. And, you know, the craziness of the journey, I was talking with my students about, you know, people leaving Syria and, you know, going in boats across the Mediterranean or people coming up through Africa, through Libya to then try to get to Italy. Like, how desperate would you have to be? That Libya is the place where you go through. - Yeah. - And yeah, I kind of also saw as the kind of the archetype on the here is journey of the underworld, the journey to the underworld, the belly of the whale, right? And that kind of, that dark, both the basement, obviously, and then kind of the fuel tank as well. - Yeah. - Just a really dark, horrible place. - Yes, I do wanna talk about the fuel tank, but I think to me, like on 121, when Baba grabs a piece of dirt, right? 'Cause I just think down the line in chapter of 11, we have that passage about America being the river, and Cobble being the ghost. And so, like, he is like, and you think of infunerals, right? When you drop the piece of the earth on the coffin. And I just see him capturing this little memento because it's very clear that this will no longer be their home and this is no longer, like, viable for them. - Yeah, it's the first hint we get of, like, changes, I think, like, really permanent changes. And you think, wow, the dirt, like, that's what you're taking with you. Like, you didn't take anything else with you. I mean, they take, I think, what is it? The picture of the king and a couple of other things, right? But this is what you're choosing to take with you. And it also reminds us, you know, and you're right, when he gets to America, it's the idea of America that he loves, but America itself is really, really challenging for him. And to the point where they want to say, like, well, maybe we should just go back to Pakistan, right? Which, obviously, you're not even Afghanistan, but it's closer to being with kind of their people. - Right. - But yeah, it helps us understand how much father is connected to Afghanistan, right? That the earth is part of, you know, it's like his inheritance, I suppose. - Yeah, and it says he keeps it next to his heart. - Yes. - Like, so even if he got separated from us, the law needs any brings with him, like, that would be on him, no matter what. Yeah, and then the gas tank. Man, the way that it's described here, we want to talk about visceral discrimination. The idea of it being like the blackest, black, and you can't see anything. And then the thickness of the air, 'cause everyone knows what gasoline smells like. - Yeah. - Smell that before. So the idea of like that being that choking presence on you, it's just so visceral. Well, and again, goes back to the, you know, that first part on page 121, that first paragraph. Well, you have those, those one word paragraphs panic, right? Which is really powerful. But then you've got the present tense again, right? You open your mouth, open it wide, right? You order your lungs. So you got these kind of just verbs, right? You know, this is what happens, this is what happens. And then I love that. The basement had been dark. The fuel tank was pitch black, and I had to reread that. And I've read this a ton of times, I had to read that 'cause I was like, wait, there's a contrast there. And then yes, I blinked again, nothing at all. And like you said, the air wasn't right. Which is really interesting, you know, another example of how you don't have to use big words, right? It was too thick, almost solid. Air wasn't supposed to be solid. I mean, tell me that that's not perfect, right? I mean, that's perfect description. - Yeah, and it's just like the economy of words, right? Like it's so clear that they know exactly what they're trying to describe. And that allows us to connect to that idea. - Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then of course, Baba says, think of something good. So of course, what does he think about? - Yeah. - Right, Hassan and Akite in an open field of grass, you know. - Yeah, it's such a beautiful, like moment. Like you can really picture it in this part. But like the kids were asking about Baba's watch. - Yeah. - What did you make of that? Like in terms of like it seems like it would be symbolic, but is it like, or is it just another detail in this moment is just so aptly described. - So it said, you know, wristwatch, I immediately went back to the wristwatch that, you know, he plans and it's obviously it's not the same one. So I mean, maybe that's just me kind of going back my mind. I don't thinking okay fluorescent green hands I'm trying to think okay the symbol of green I'm not sure jealousy I mean you know but I think it's more to do with the fact you know how what does he say he says and then a small miracle like Baba of course it's Baba who knows how to deal with this is Baba who in this moment is behaving really as a perfect father should right in this moment right he's just you know all he says is you know think of something good right um but yeah I mean I think it's just in that moment he sees something and he's just able to look at it um yeah glowing green in the dark I mean yeah I mean he's just that anchor point yeah like that's that's what's holding him tethered I mean but in here if you look at I mean if you I mean it also helps emphasize how dark you know that is yeah when it's really really dark and you wake up in the night and you you know if you you know turn on your phone to see the time we'll click your watch to see the time and that's like right exactly yeah yeah especially when you can't make out any shapes at all like to have at least that to know okay I I can at least put myself somewhere physically like that's gonna help mentally yeah and then we have um come all okay so right and and so I was looking at my I'm not gonna call um which student it was right you know I was looking at my students notes and I've one student who just like is is is like writing in all caps in in her notes like like like I said if you're such a whatever right and blah blah and then and then the initial response to when you know hearing about what happened to come out initially right so this idea when he sees come out on page 120 and he's this guy is hollow look no recognition at all his soft shoulders hunched his cheeks sag like they were too tired to cling to the bone beneath and then when we realize what has happened to him and the kind of poetic justice that's there but we don't feel good about it right in any way yeah and and and I think it's it's interesting that that that Hussein uses this uses the motif of rape like he uses the motif of of of assault because this is like the where 100 pages 120 pages and this is the third time it's kind of that specter has kind of raised it's head right right you know um and I just for me it's just wow just horror and and and and pity right I mean it's it's it's horrific and then I'm assuming he dies of his fixation right and assuming he just his fixates in the yeah that's that was my assumption too and especially because he was already so right right right like you put you put someone that depressed right in a isobaric chamber with no light and no ability to see anything like yeah he's gone like there he didn't have enough life to cling onto like Baba was enough for a mere to cling onto right and the memory of Hussein right yeah so yeah you know it's yeah because Kamal's friend right right yeah what memories you know exactly there's no beautiful sparkling hills for him to run under yeah yeah yeah yeah I just think it's it's just the a picture of utter despondency you know and and again I think I don't think Hussein includes this necessarily for um you know for some kind of like cheap easy kicks I mean I think this is the reality of Afghanistan like you know because when he talks about the the generation of children who only knew bombs and stuff like that had not been born yet yeah this is it this is how it starts in 1980s and and from then on nothing is the same and these are stories that I'm assuming every Afghan knows of or knows someone who has experienced something along these lines so yeah it's just that brute like that brutality of war but more so like just this utter like fight for power and yeah yeah and they suffer I so like on 124 when it talks about his dad and it was someone was screaming the most screaming wailing yeah I always think of goblet of fire and the performance where he goes my son oh yeah yeah yeah like I still cry I am 31 years old and I still cry every time that line comes even though I know it's coming like well it's so visceral like like and again it makes you wonder like Baba had this sort of emotional reaction with losing Ollie and housing but it's like keep like would he do this for a mirror right like he did like it's so interesting we keep getting these comparisons of these fathers and sons and like if you're you keep wondering because you know a mirror is so concerned with the way that Baba treats him well you know my my wife lost her brother at a very young age and and I've seen what losing a child does to parents like it's it's not when it says the whale turned into a throat ripping screech yeah I mean you know that it's right that's not screaming is the wrong way to describe it because it's it's much more it comes from a much much deeper place and yeah I mean you know the old adage you know parents shouldn't have to bury their children I mean it's it's it's a cliche but it's yeah it's it's really you only have to see it once to to realize how just awful and that's why this had to be the scene to put the like the final stamp on on like them being in the Middle East right like because that is the the final moment of them yeah then we shift forward an unknowable amount of years like it kind of we get because the previous one it said 1981 and then now this is like 1980s right yeah so we're talking about probably over the period of a couple of years yeah it's amazing the contrast that was in between Baba in in America and Baba in Afghanistan right and and you can see it so clearly like I when I when they describe him in Afghanistan he is like this tree trunk man that's a thought of bear it is like this this guy who's benevolent and how mystical yeah and you just you picture this powerful beard right yeah yeah I don't stack of muscles and then you get to America and it's like this like angry kind of like weathered down man is it is it I feel like it's in this 131 hadn't he been taller in Kabul yes you know like it's just not just a mental change but there's a physical change yeah well they said Baba was like the widower who remarries but can't let go of his dead wife yeah yeah yeah we got it which dead wife we're talking right well and I think I again as a as an as an immigrant myself I think this is really it's really powerful that that you know when when people come to this country they don't necessarily come because they are just super excited and overjoyed at coming and it's not to say that they feel that they're fortunate but it's this sense of uncertainty you know I remember coming here in feeling which completely like like a fish out of water completely you know the culture was living here was so much different than just coming here on holiday well I bet it was even more and candy for you because it's not so far removed from British culture but like it's not the same so it's just that like weird like yeah a student didn't once ask me whether I had to learn a new ink whether I had to learn a new language when I came here to the United States and maybe not quite that or what language did I speak growing up I said what do you mean in England yeah you're talking about like accent right yeah understand people and Liverpool but yeah the you know when it talks about the bay areas smog smung his stung his eyes the traffic noise gave him headaches the pollen made him cough the sweet was never fruits the fruit was never sweet enough the water never clean enough and wear all the trees and open fields like wow and he's talking about California you know and I'm bay area okay you know and but yeah it's not just wow you came here you should be so happy and thankful and I think as an adult you know and I know that we have students in our classes whose parents have come here and their parents still haven't learned English right they don't want to yeah right and and and and what happens is the kid then starts to become the adult right and this is what's happening here right a mirror is the translator for Baba a mirror is the person who kind of fixes things for Baba when he goes off the rails yeah and that's just a big change which I thought was really dramatic yeah because you have that scene with the like the what do you call like a convenient yeah yeah Mr. Mrs. Nuin yeah and so like Baba's argument is not irrational no like like culturally you understand what he's talking about is like I have been here for years paying you like what right and you don't trust me now well and I love I mean how cool I I never you know that I've been in countries where like you pay your bill at the end of the month but the idea of like you take a wooden stick yeah you carve notches on it and how How many notches on it, that's how many loaves of bread you know, just the trust, because honor and decency are everything, and this is what it comes down to. They don't trust him and Bob is like, why can't you, like I'm Bob, I'm, why don't people trust each other? And I think that's what a lot of people find when they come to the west, that kind of lack of trust. Yeah. Well, I would say like, you know, we talk about American culture is so hard to pin down because it's a country of immigrants, and I would say distrust is a facet of the culture, like you're always out for your own, that's just part of it. To kind of like, on this line of America, 126, we start getting into like the elements of the culture that Bob is buying into, and you know, he loves Ronald Reagan, okay, like a big fan, which I just, I guess, in hindsight, find ironic, considering the Republican party is, like, especially at this time, there is a lot of folks, but the line like exactly the sort of blue collar people who would soon suffocate under the pillow, Reagan always pressed to their faces, I think we're getting not even subtle like, you know, digs at the American political system that we have here. But it just shows Barba because the idea of an Afghan-like-liking Israel, right? Right. You know, that to me is, but it makes sense, right, because Barba comes from a country that is under the yoke of communists. Yes. He sees Reagan as someone who stands up to the communists, and so, you know, in a sense, whatever their economic policies are, it's the fact that you see this person as a strong person who's willing to stand up for what you believe in. And so, I thought that was kind of, you know, that was the same thing in the belt in the United States, right? Right. So, you had people who, like they felt like they didn't want to be served, I'm thinking of the book, I can picture the cover of it right now, it became really famous, got turned into a movie by Ron Howard, and then it was like a nonfiction take on his time in Ohio. Yeah. And he was talking about how they liked Reagan, because of that, like he was the guy who was going to stand up and do it, and they didn't want handouts and all that, but they all needed handouts. Yeah. It was just very, it's this interesting of, like, we are drawn to that strong personality. Yes. And yet, we don't actually see where the string is coming from. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Boba is, he wants, I like when he talks about Jimmy Carter, it's putting a boy who can't ride a bike behind the wheel of a brand new cat like, it's so good, you know, someone who took action instead of ringing his hands. And I think, you know, I think the place that I think, you know, to kind of where we could kind of end this, because we can get into it, because I think this leads into it when he says, for me, America was a place to bury my memories for Boba, a place to mourn his. And then, of course, we have that whole kind of set of like, is it, whereas it's page one, right of like what he does. So you've got the image of freedom, which of course, every non-American that I know sees America is like the road trip, like, like you go on road trips, like you can drive for hours and hours and behind more mountains, there's more mountains and beyond cities, there's more cities. Yeah. You know, and so I like this idea of him, like, just driving and thinking and all these different things and he's going up to Santa Cruz and, you know, people have never seen the ocean before, which we don't really think about. Yeah, I think we're very blessed in that, like, that's something we see. But I still, even growing up here, I still get like shock and awe when I come over a hill and you can see the ocean, if something so like interesting is the pelicans for me. I don't know why I'm just like flying like right over the water, but never touching it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So I think the quote right is America was different, America was a river roaring along unmindful of the past. I could wade into this river, let my sins drown to the bottom, but the water is carrying me someplace far, someplace with no ghosts, no memories, no sins. If for nothing else for that, I embraced America, which is his baptism. Right. We're talking like that of Florida, but America is his river that he's waded into and come out anew. A good baptism? I guess we're yet to see, right? Right. Like, we're still kind of have to see in terms of like, does that mean that he's changed into someone who is going to say something? Right. Or does it just mean like he now kind of found some sort of power? Yes. And I think that it's interesting, let my sins drown to the bottom. And then he doesn't say and then walk out, a changed individual, but let the waters carry me someplace far. It's like to get as far away from possible from whatever it is he's, you know, he's struggling with. And it's very passive. Right. Not let me walk out. Not let me carry me. Good old. Amir, so passive. Just. Well, I suppose it's probably a good time as place to end it, but of course, we are left with the cliff tanga, swap meat, swap meat princess. And you know, just a couple of things point out the sickle-shaped birthmark, you know. So there's a mark for greatness, right? And I think, again, reminding, so general to Harry have father, again, it's just another reminder of the immigrant experience where you have, you know, educated people who are once really, really wealthy now, who are now just who are working class. I can't imagine. No, right. That's. Yeah. It's so tough. Yeah. There's even an illusion when he first sees it to the Shahnama, the story of Rostom's wife and Soraya's mother. So that, I think, is a cool little nod to the epics that he and Hassan used to read. So well, we will find out. I know. So exciting. Yeah. Soraya. Soraya. What an aim. It's a gorgeous name. Yeah. Okay. Onward and upwards. Maybe. Maybe. So, um, and next week it's chapters 12 through 16, I think. Yes. Excellent. Yeah. Alright. See you then. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Lit English Lit podcast. My thanks to Miss Sharp for her wonderful passionate part in our conversation. And before we end today's podcast, I wanted to give a few things to look for as we move forward into chapters 12 through 16. So next week, the podcast will be focusing on those chapters. Something that comes up quite a lot in the next few chapters is the idea of honor and dignity. We've seen that quite a lot, you know, from the very beginning where Baba says a boy who won't stand up for himself becomes a man who can't stand up to anything. But as we move into the United States and the culture that they are part of is obviously very different from what they used to in Afghanistan, notions of honor and dignity become much more prevalent. We're also going to see a lot of examples in the next few chapters of a shift in Baba and Amir's relationship. We've kind of seen that already. Keep looking as well for the theme or the motif of illness as we've seen with Amir's car sickness, but we're going to see more of that. And also looking out for these two new characters that were just introduced, General Tahari, who is the father of Amir's Swap Meat Princess Soraya Tahari. And those two characters are going to become very important as the novel goes on. Well, I hope you enjoyed the podcast. Thank you for listening. And please join us again next week as we look at chapters 12 through 16. Thank you. Goodbye.