Burnout, Boundaries & the Cost of Being Selfless | Turia Pitt

Turn down the noise and turn up the calm with practitioner grade supplements by Medagenix. Always read the label and follow directions for use. - Well, Trey, this is a very special moment 'cause I'm finally getting to meet you in person, but welcome to Magnetic with Madeline, the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today. - Yeah, thanks, Mark. It's great to be here. - It's so good. I remember interviewing you back in 2020, which feels like a lifetime ago. I'm sure for both of us. (laughing) And that was with the release of your first book, Happy. - Yeah, it was all done online. We were in COVID times and everything was online at that point, but it was such a special moment talking to you because I remember originally coming across your story, well, we just realized 15 years ago. You know, that's a long time being inspired by someone and your journey is just extraordinary and what you do. So I'm so excited to have you here to talk about your latest book, Selfish. - Yeah. - Yeah, so tell us a little bit about it. So I wrote that book. It was a time in my life. Michael and I, Michael is my Spunky partner. We didn't have a lot of family support. We had two little kids who are both like, I think, like they were four and two. We'd moved away from family and friends. Michael was really busy as a helicopter pilot. So, and I was trying to do, you know, do everything like, I suppose, lots of people, lots of women in particular, can relate to, you know, working really hard, trying to achieve goals at work, trying to do everything on the home front. And so what actually happened is I went through burnout just as a result of saying yes to everything, wanting to be a nice person, wanting to accommodate other people, all of those things that I'm sure a lot of the listeners of this can relate to. And so what you do when you go through burnout, if you're me, you should decide to write a book about it. (laughs) What you do when you're an overachver, you go, oh yeah, there's a, there's surely a book in here. And so that's where the idea for selfish came about. - And what does the word, I guess, selfish mean to you? Because, I guess in a lot of ways, it has had a more negative connotation. - Yeah. - But obviously your book has such a beautiful spin on it being such a positive thing that we can do as women. - Yeah. - Where did you land with a name? And I guess where did you start to have a really positive, you know, feeling towards that word? - Yeah, I think I wanted to call it selfish 'cause I'm a bit of a smart-ass to start with. But I also think it was about reclaiming that word and being proud of that label and taking ownership of it as well. And I think that it's cool, like wanting to have clearer work life boundaries, wanting to be able to say no to people, wanting to be kind but firm, wanting to make sure you do things that fill your cup. None of those things are actually selfish at their core. So I think that's, I don't know, that's where I landed with the title. But you also need a title that's kind of like a bit, like grabby. - Yeah, it's totally. - Maybe that's people's attention. So I think that's why I landed with that too. - Yeah, 'cause I could have done something like, you know, life lessons or-- - Yes. - Which probably doesn't have the same ring to it. - No, I love it. It was like as soon as I saw it, I'm like, "Oh, I love this." - Yeah, yeah. - And just exactly, I guess, what I said of like re-working that name, like giving it a positive spin. - Yeah. - Or actually allowed to be selfish. And it doesn't have to have a negative connotation. It's just one day someone decided that that was negative to be selfish. But it's like, we both know as women and moms and women who have big dreams, you have to be selfish in order to be able to give to all of the things that you're here to give to and you desire to give to. - I think it's also like the rhetoric though, like it's quite, it's a pretty big insult right to call someone selfish. And I've been called a selfish bitch a few times in my life. And it's something that really, really stabs you in your call, I guess, because women are supposed to be carers, noters, look after people, look after their family, look after the fine, I look after the kids, look after their team, look after their employees. And that's really a big ask on one person's shoulders. So I think, yeah, I'm probably not articulating myself very well, but I think there's something in that as well. - Yeah, definitely. - So what is it for you? What do you do to kind of really give back to yourself and you know, that whole analogy of filling out the cup? How do you fill up your own cup? - Yeah, that's a good question, 'cause I feel like I give all of this advice to make sure you fill your own cup, and then I think, yeah, sometimes I'm probably not the best at it, 'cause, you're a woman? - Yeah, I'm here, man, life's busy, I've got a team, I've got kids, I was telling you before, my kids just doing cross country, I came from an event. So life is just really busy, and I'm not winging about that, 'cause what a great problem to have, to be so busy with stuff that you enjoy doing, but yeah, at the same time, I'm probably not always great at making sure I fill my cup, but there are some things that I do do. So I think starting my day with a cup of coffee, is pretty good, sounds really, really simple, like basic bitch, but hear me out. So starting my day with a cup of coffee, starting my day listening to an audio book, I think in the past, I've tried to cram as much stuff into my life as possible to try and be more efficient and more productive, but what I've realized, particularly through writing this book, is that when you let your brain think, when you give yourself a beat, when you allow yourself stillness, when you allow yourself the joy of listening to a book on audible or whatever it is, that can be really restorative, and I think that works wonders for your brain, and because a lot of what I do, maybe similar to your amounts, you have to be creative to come up with new ideas, and if I'm just cramming my brain with all of this information all of the time and checking Slack messages, and what's happening emails and this, and that and ordering lunches, and my brain so full, so I've elated that I can't think any new thoughts, and I can't think of any of my own creative thoughts either. So, like, even, it's even been good, actually, with my kids listening to books that I love to read as a kid. It's like my son and I were listening to the BFG. - Oh, yeah, and I was really cute, and you stayed in there, 'cause sometimes I watch YouTube, which is like, you know, - I suppose it's good. - Let's go wild from that, it's like, but yeah, I know they go psychotic, hey. - Totally. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so, I'll be like, no, we're gonna listen to an audio book, guys, and I sort of fight against it, but then the magic of the storytelling, it's kind of like a balm for all of us, but that makes sense, yeah. - Because it's like one, it's instilling a habit of like, mine and ass in a web of like, like, would listen to a book, and then listening to a book is building their creativity, their imagination, because they're having to think about the characters, think about like what's being told to them, and I feel like that fuels and builds so much creativity in kids, but then they can get to, you know, our age, and it's like, that's just like a default habit, oh, I'm feeling overwhelmed, or I get some me time, what can I do, I'm gonna plug in an audio book, and I'm just gonna listen and allow my, mine to, you know, block out the noise of exactly the dishes, the lunch boxes, all the other things, and being this creative world for a little bit. And I actually love seeing my kids then, I feel like it really builds on imaginary play. - Yes. - And they come up with all of these games and these ideas, and I'm like, that's what foster's creativity, that's where then, you know, they grow up to be adults, and birth ideas, and birth, you know, these beautiful things, because they've used their imagination, and they create a fine. - Yeah, so actually, I actually, sometimes I worry about the younger generations, 'cause I grew up in the 90s, which was, you know, a wild time, and I feel so old saying that, but there was more opportunity to use your imagination and to be creative, and to play with sticks and mud, and I'm not romanticizing the past, 'cause there was also a lot of things about the 90s, which weren't good, but I got this real amazing opportunity to learn to use my mind, learn to use my imagination, learn to be creative, and I think with this younger generation, I shouldn't, it makes me feel really old when I say that, but we're always supplying them, the next thing to do, the next activity here, what's this here, do this, here I'm taking you to this, that sometimes I think, I wonder if they're ever just, if they're ever just allowed to be a kid? - Yeah. - Yeah. - It's so true, and I think too, just with, like, yeah, I don't know about you, but like I grew up, yeah, building cubby houses, being going across the road into the bush, and like just exploring, and I'm like, oh, I can't imagine my kids doing that. - No, but I wouldn't do that, we wouldn't do it. - I wouldn't let that, my kids do that. But I think, well that's great that we're also much more educated now about child safety. But also there's still some ways that we could take them to the beach, let them run around, let them jump off sand dunes. Get dirty. Get dirty, do all of that. Yeah, do all of that sort of exploration, even like, even like now how we have terms for it, like exploration and things. It's just like, no, they're just being kids. They're literally just being kids. Yeah, that's just how they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so, so true. It's actually been really good to rewatch my childhood through their eyes and, yeah, I think being a parent can be really challenging at times, but it's also, yeah, kids are fucking amazing, aren't they? Yeah, yeah. They're loving, they're kind, they're creative, yeah. And I think the thing I love the most is like, realizing we come here as these magical little beings. I know, and then we get cynical. And then we get like the masks go on. And I know you're like, I had to book all around, like, yeah, the unmasking, but it's like the masks go on in which how we should show up and how we shouldn't. Yeah. We should be quiet and we should do this and we should be a good girl and we shouldn't be selfish. And all of these things, but I'm like, you look at kids in that innocence of like wearing whatever they want to whatever occasion. I mean, you know, the ballet dress to the beach or the, you know, like, I'm going to boots with the cardigan and all the things and I'm like, oh, wow, that's what it was actually like to come to this earth and be so in your own uniqueness and that you reach. And it reminds me of as an adult to like tap a little bit back into that. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. And I think I feel like I got lucky in life too because I had parents who weren't super conservative. So they both kind of walked their own paths. I was born in Tahiti from Polynesian. We came to Australia. My dad was a surfboard shaper. He was a painter. My mom was a writer. So there were these like two, you know, we didn't have a TV growing up. So they're like these two super creative kind of people who did live life on their own terms and they weren't, they didn't care about what other people were doing. They wanted to do what they wanted to do. And I think there's a lot of, yeah, I suppose it just helped me to walk my own path a little more comfortably because I had those examples before me. Absolutely. Which is such a beautiful foundation. Oh, totally. Yeah, and like not everyone gets, not everyone gets that, you know, not everyone gets, like would start in life with us. I'm really grateful for that. Yeah. So what's the unfolding being for you? Because I know like in the book, you obviously talk about like, you know, taking off some of the masks and doing boundaries and having self love and self respect. This podcast has always been focused on inspiring women to prioritise their wellness. 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Always read the label and follow the directions for use. How is that unfolded for you, like to get to this version of yourself, where you feel like you can be and on yourself in the way that you need to, like what has that process been like? Yeah, to be honest, I feel like I'm still a work in progress. We are. We are. I don't really have any of those things solved. I think with boundaries, I realised I had to, because I, you know, I went through something catastrophic. I was thrust in the public eye, so to speak. And you know, I always had lots of people coming up to me saying, "You the girl from 16 minutes was that you? Was that you? What happened to you? Were you burnt?" And that's happened to me for over a decade now. And most of the time, I love it when people stop and say hello. They go, "You're that runner, you're bloody awesome. Keep up the good work." I loved that. That's so nice. But I realised that sometimes people would ask quite intrusive questions, you know, what happened to you? Did you have a bad accident? Why do you look like that? You know, and what I would normally do, because I was quite polite wanting to be kind, wanting to be a bitch, wanting to rock the boat, I would almost play Kate there and be like, "Oh, you know, it's all good. I got banter a long time ago. I'm all good. You don't need to worry about me." But that would typically extend that interaction even further. And I remember being at a park one day, and I was with my sons, right? And a woman came over and she was like, "What happened to you?" And I was like, "Oh, yeah, mate. I don't really want to talk about it." And I could fit my youngest son. I could feel his-- I was holding his hand. And I could feel him squeezing my hand. And he was like, "Try to pull me away." And this woman was like, "What happened? What happened? It wasn't a crazy wild story." And I think I really learnt then. I realised that, mate, I wasn't setting a really great example for my kids, right? Because by placating all of these strangers, by allowing them to ask these intrusive questions of me, I was kind of giving them the example. I was demonstrating that, "Hey, if someone comes and asks you a question, even if it's a stranger, you've got to answer it." And if they ask you a question that you don't want to answer, guess what? You've got to answer that too. And so-- You're still a witness for you, though, in that moment. No, no, no. That's taken lots of therapy. Yeah, I mean, that girl. Yeah, so now-- Oh, a lot better. So if someone comes up and says that, I go, "Yeah, I don't want to talk about it." And they'll say, "Oh, why not?" Would be a really interesting story. And I just don't want to talk about it, mate, sorry. I just shut it down. And that doesn't really feel comfortable for me to do that, because it feels like I'm being rude. But on the other hand, I want to be a good example for my kids, right? And I also need to protect my spirit, my power, my manner, to be able to keep doing the work that I've been doing. You know, so that's been-- Yeah, I think setting boundaries has been a really good thing that I've learned more recently. Yeah. I love that you share that, because one, like, boundaries look different for everyone that you like. And it's not-- there's no set rule or way to have boundaries. It's like just how can I honor exactly what you said, my spirit, my being, my mission, my purpose, more or more, so that I can continue to show up as a person I want to be. So it's like it can look so different for everyone. And I just love that example so much, because it's like so intuitively, like yours, like that's so important to you and to lead that example. And I think the other beautiful thing, too, is knowing that it feels uncomfortable, because once upon a time you've probably been told that you respond to people, that you-- Yeah. It's rude not to answer questions. Kind of like-- Yeah, kind of like-- Kind of like-- It feels uncomfortable because you're going against something that's probably been placed on you as a truth, that's not actually a truth, but it's like it's been made-- you've been made to feel like I have to be this way to be a good girl or to be nice or to be respected. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like it even happened at the airport today. Oh. Yeah, but I just put on my headphones. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It actually kind of-- I'm not going to lie. It's like, please, my mind that people would-- Well, this is a thing, like-- like-- I hate to be able to just live in their lives, they don't give a fuck, whatever. Some people recognize me and they go, you know, awesome. I love your work, I read your book, I listen to this, I do blah, blah, blah, blah. That's all so great. It's just some people feel like they can comment on other people's bodies. Yeah, it's really wild when you think about it, yeah. It is. And it's just like, when do we get to a point where it was actually okay to comment on people? It's interesting because I have this conversation with my kids now of like, there's certain words that we like don't use, like no matter what, we cannot use the word fat in our house, like about anything, like it's just like, it's just, we don't use it. And just having this conversation with kids of like, we don't comment on people's appearances. And everyone looks different because we're from different parents and different parts of the world. I think it's just so important, like, there's no such thing as normal, like, do you know what I mean? It's like even just breaking that. Yeah. It's like we're all unique and everyone looks different in their own ways and there's no way you're meant to look or not look. Yeah, I mean, I still like, if I say a chicken, I think she's got like, cool boots. Well, she's rocking an outfit like I'll always say, I'll be like, I love your boots. - Oh, yeah. - 100%. - Yeah. - And that's what I do always wear. - Yeah, yeah. - When you watch the kids, like, if you like something, 100%. - Yeah, I like that. - I stop people all the time. - Yeah, yeah, I stop. - I love that color on you. - Yeah. - That looks great. - Yeah, yeah. - My son's actually kids started coming home from Kinder and always telling me what he's teacher war 'cause he thinks she looks beautiful. - Oh my. - Oh mate, I love that. - That's so cute. - That's so cute. - She had such a beautiful dress on today, and my mom, you would have loved it at a train of like, oh, sorry, but I mean, just that. - Yeah. - Like if we don't have anything nice to say, then why are we saying that? - Yeah, you don't have to say it. - You don't have to say it totally. - Yeah, yeah. - How do you kind of instill that with your kids? Is it just leading by that example? - I mean, I don't not, yeah, I feel like, I'm trying to think this is gonna sound really wanky, but I feel like they would never say that to someone 'cause I just, yeah. Maybe we have lots of conversations about, yeah, people looking different or, I don't know, I just, I can't see a world in which they would comment on someone. - On someone, yeah. - On, yeah, how someone looks, yeah. - I think it's just like, sometimes that out, out woods, influence. - Yeah. - In like, I don't know, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - That's beautiful that they wouldn't. - I mean, fuck, I don't know, maybe they would, maybe they would one day. (laughing) I just can't see it, but I suppose a lot of like the work I do is about, you know, empowering women, and I've got this online coaching running thing, and I'm doing this work on, you know, this all sounds a bit grim, but, lots of women don't feel safe when they're exercising at doors, when they're going for a run or whatever, and so a big part of the work that I'm doing is to try and change that. But I think my son might have overheard, like a work conversation or something, because he was like, after the convo, he said, oh, a boy is bad. Yeah, I know, and I was like, fuck whatever, I mean, what have I been saying? And you know, I tried to say no, like men are great, men are awesome, boys are great, boys are awesome. We need like, beautiful, kind, compassionate, caring, men in the world like your dad, and like you and your brother will be. But yeah, I think there's, maybe there's a balance that I need to take too, because it's, I'm a lot about empowering women, but I don't think it's a job that women can do, just by themselves, and not should they have to, and we need, we need, yeah, we do need men, we need male champions too, yeah. You have that in your home, like your high-pitched, beautiful role, you know. I like his, yeah, he's like, he's actually so funny, because he's actually super conservative. Really? And like, yeah, yeah, he's actually quite traditional. So I'm like, why are you with me? Like, what was, what was, what was it thinking behind this? Yeah, but it's good, it's good to have someone, you know, because so many people just give you lip service, right? Oh, yeah, that's great, keep going, it's great. And it's really awesome to be with someone who's always challenging your ideas, always challenging your rhetoric and your thought process. Some know it's annoying, because you're like, just agree with me for once. But, yeah, I actually really like that, really love that about Michael, yeah. I remember seeing this, I think it's Peter Corn, Corn, maybe he's named me, so he's like a relationship. Advise, I agree. Advise or a role. Yeah, and he's quite spiritual as well, and I remember watching one of these clips that just like, you know, and something just like, shifts, like the way you think or the way you see something. And he said about love. Like we never give our love to someone. When we fall in love, it's about us becoming a version of ourselves that we love with that person. Ah! And it just shifted so much for me, where I was like, wow, it really is. And when you were just saying that then, it's like the person that you can become and you are with him, and the way he, yeah, it just makes you, it just pushes you, or motivates you. It's actually you loving that version so much, and he's like giving that to you. That's so true. Who's this guy? When I go stalk him. He's on Instagram. It's, yeah, I think it's Peter Corn. Corn, Crona Crona, but he's amazing. Like even just his energy, like when you watch, he does a lot of just like face to camera snip it, so like extracts from podcasts. Yeah, he's quite big. I'm not sure if he's-- Okay. Maybe some of you, but-- I'll check him out. Yeah. Just the things he says really well, that one in particular I was like, wow, that's actually what it is about. Yeah. Because I was just reflecting on that, like, you know, you're a different version of yourself with different people. And I think the version of myself that I am with Michael is a version that I like the most, you know what I mean? And so, yeah, it's really, it is, it's, we have a really great mutual respect in understanding for us. He still drives me crazy. Still unloys me. Just like lots of little things that he does that annoys me. But, yeah, and like, I always get so much credit because people are like, oh, you're so resilient, you're so strong, you're so awesome. And like all of those things are true. But I think sometimes we look at resilience like it's an individual's strength of burden. So if someone's struggling at work, isolation is, well, you've just got to be more resilient, you've got to work it out, you've got to keep pushing. And I think that doesn't really tell the whole story. And I think the reason why I'm so resilient is I've got all of this amazing support behind me. I've got this wonderful partner. I've got a really great family. I've got epic friends. And so I wouldn't have been able to do what I've done if I didn't have those people in my corner, if that makes sense. Absolutely. And so I think, yeah, the view that we've taken resilience, I think we need to shift it because expecting someone to just suck it up be better, be less shit, be more resilient when they're struggling in a toxic workplace, for example, I mean, you mentioned earlier about your experience in the corporate workplace. I just don't think it doesn't work. No, absolutely. And you're placing all of this burden on this individual, right? And you've got to look at like, well, why are you set boss being such an asshole? Or like, why don't they have better work life boundaries? And why don't they have more people on their team to help them with this really long list of things that you want them to achieve? And so I think probably need to look at the systems we've got. As well, rather than just saying, hey, if you're struggling, it's because you have a problem. And it's because you're not resilient enough. Yeah. And resilience is like that thing too, that it's like you build into it by going through harder times. It's like a-- Yeah. It's a building of almost like character, isn't it, of like understanding and realizing your own strength, like that? Yeah. I mean, I do agree with that, Mads, but I also slightly disagree. Not a big deal. Because I think sometimes I said earlier that my parents gave me a really good start in life, which I'm really grateful for. But not everyone starts from the same place, right? And there's so many people, so many people in Australia who might be facing things that we don't know about. They might live with a disability. They might be a person of color. They might have insecure housing. They might be caring for their older parents that they've got all of these additional burdens that we might not see when they rock up to their workplace or they show up somewhere. So I think to expect that person to be able to cope in the same way or to be able to build their character in the same way that maybe you could or maybe I could, I don't know if that's the fairest expectation. I'm not sure. I do think going through hard things builds character. I do think that it's like with school, like cross country, right? You want your kid to have a go. And if they come last, you're like, well, that's just how it works. You're not going to be great at everything. You've got to give some things a go. And you might also be really shit at those things. So I do think it does build character. But I also think that people, especially in this country with cost of living and housing insecurity and all of those issues, people are just dealing with a lot just to get through their day to day. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's like such a beautiful perspective of it. And it's almost why kindness is such an important thing. And we say kindness is free. But if you go to-- I always think about it when I'm at the supermarket. If someone's, say, speaking, someone's comes across rude or doesn't give you a niche. But I always have this moment with myself of lack. I don't know what she's been through. I don't know. I don't know what her morning was like. I don't know what her past is like. So she's probably allowed to be rude to me right now. She probably doesn't want to fully engage and be bubbly. I know I, and it's funny because I remember working in hospitality one of my all bosses being like, I don't care what happens at home. You leave all of that at the door and you come in here and you have a smile on your face. And for a long time, I thought that that's what I had. - We all did. - And it's all we all did. If someone was rude at the supermarket, the checkout person, I'd be like, oh, how dare they be rude to me. But now, obviously understanding so much more and knowing more people and understanding what exactly what some people actually have to face and go through and leave with you. It's like, well, I imagine if everyone was just, I think that's why I'm so gobsmacked that people would walk up to and actually say something. Like, what happened to you? - I know there's a lot of ourselves out there, man. - Yeah, that's what I mean. - There's a lot of these mind-blowing things that people in this day and age would still do. Because they don't know what's happened. They have no idea. And so to make someone feel. - Yeah. - No way to question that. You know? - I will say though, 'cause I've got, you know, lots of friends have businesses and. Some of them might have a win sometimes about this younger generation and how they ask for too much and how and they were young. They just keep working and I kind of feel like power to this younger generation. Like power to them that they're saying, okay, you want me to work on a Saturday? What's the rate going to be? What will I get? What am I going to get paid? Or you tell me that I could work today until four. It's five past four. You still got like, are we going to get over time? You know, I actually think that's so great that they. And you know, maybe this is just like anecdotal thing. So it's not really evidence-based, but I think it's so great that they are better able to articulate their boundaries. 'Cause like you were saying, you know, when we were working in Hospor and stuff in the 90s, the sprees to go out four, five, 30, still working. There's no way you would say anything. Yeah, no, too. You know, and if you would complain to parents, they would say, well, that's what happens at work. Yes. It would be the advice. So I think it's just, it is wonderful that this younger generation is better at being, you know, clearer with boundaries, asking for what they want, not killing themselves for their job. I think that's absolutely amazing. I totally agree. And it's like, people can say, like, I've heard older people say, like, oh, they're so fished, these young people are racing. But I'm like, exactly like, hats off to them. I'm telling them. I wish I was that bold at that age. Oh my goodness. Just say to my boss, okay, you want what it work on Saturday? What will the rate be? Yes. I never would have said that. Or I'm into Finish at 5, like, I've got plans. Yeah. I'm going. Yeah, that's my plan. Yeah. I would have just texted my friend, like, I'm so sorry. Still second word, I'm still here. So you said your boss could leave at 5, but say, yeah, I know, I just don't want to say anything. Yes, I know. Yeah. Do you think that they're, like, obviously that is very people pleasing behaviour too, that has been instilled in us of, like, you know, not rocking the boat and doing what we all need. Yeah. Where was the shift for you to really, I guess, start to break that and rip back those layers? Obviously, you've spoken a little bit into, like, not answering someone if you don't feel like it. Has there been other ways in your life, like, with work and stuff that you've kind of really started to be more mindful of those people pleasing? Yeah, yeah. And I mean, like, when I wrote the book, Selfish, I had so many women come up and tell me, like, how amazing it was and how it changed their life and how they wish they learnt their stuff when they were younger, because some of these were, like, 16, 70 and even 80. And I'm just reflecting now, like, women of all ages have read. My books, and I've had lots of comments on how great they've been from younger women too. But I think for younger women reading it, they might have thought, oh, this is all common sense. This is all, like, quite straightforward. And I think, yeah, if I didn't go through burnout, I probably would have never reevaluated my life in such a way. So I think, yeah, having better boundaries, even having boundaries with my team at work, you know, because sometimes they'd say, oh, I can just do this video, can you do that? Can you do this? And, you know, I want to help out. It's from my business, you know, and so I'd always just say, yes, but then at the end of the week, when you've just done stuff for everyone else, and then you look at your own workload, and you haven't gotten anywhere with that, so then you're going to have to work a couple of nights, and then, you know, that's not a very healthy, healthy pattern to be in either. So, yeah, even just saying no, no, just stuff from my team. And even with other work that I do, I suppose, just having better boundaries from the start. So, like, yeah, I can be involved, but this is what I can do. Yeah. If you had to give one piece of advice to the women listening of how to start being a little bit more selfish in a really positive way, so that they can give back to them. Yeah. What would it be? There's this really good saying in Terrio Maori, and I actually can't remember how to say it. So I'm kicking myself. But it's like, what's the point? What's the point of giving your manner away to others if you can't look after yourself and your own, like your own family? So that's the thing I always ask myself, like, this work request in Ipswich, sounds really cool, but how I get there three days of my time, and then who's going to have the kids and my husband's helicopter pilot, he works away. So I suppose I kind of stop and do that sort of self-reflection rather than just saying, yes, automatically to stuff that comes in. I love that. Yeah. That moment of pause. It's just like, yes. So you've said it so much more articulately than me. Oh, no. I might have said it. Yeah, it's just a moment of pause and self-reflection. And I've also noticed that when you say no to things that you don't really excite you, that something else will come up, and that's a really difficult thing to do to just trust the process or trust the universal. Whatever it is that you want to call it. But I've found that if I just say no to things that I don't want to do, even if I'm not particularly busy in that moment, something else over the horizon, something else will come up. That's something that I do want to do or that I feel more aligned with. And that's, I think that's the biggest thing, isn't it, the alignment, like when you are saying no, you're most guiding the universe. Yeah, but back to your alignment. Yeah, and you're also like giving yourself some bandwidth. Yes. Giving yourself some mental space. You know, you don't have to cram your life so full of everything that you don't have any time to think your own thoughts or come up with your own ideas. Yeah. I think especially in this age of AI too, like, it's coming for all of our jobs. Whatever. But I also think that if you can maintain that ability to remain agile, to remain flexible, to remain open to things, to remain creative, to have your own thoughts in the shower. I don't know, I think that's going to be even more unique. The more that people use and rely on AI. Totally. Yeah. The thoughts in the shower. I love these thoughts. It's all in the shower. But like, you know, you know why they happen in the shower? Because everything else is fucking quiet. Yes. Yeah. It's quiet. And then as soon as you're around, there's like this and that and this and that. Oh, true. Yeah. It's like turning the dial down, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. You get that moment of pause, yeah. What are some of your beliefs? You've touched a little bit on the universe and having, you know, a bit of faith. What are some of your core beliefs that you feel like you're so locked into? That is help, like helps you to either stay positive or continue on your mission. You know, if you'd asked me this like 10 years ago, why core beliefs? Why do I look quite different? Because it would have been like, oh well, you've just got to work hard, you've got to knock it down, you've got to keep grinding. And I think that's like when you're starting something new, I'm very into hustle culture, but at the same time, if you're starting something new, I do believe there is an element of hustle that needs to be done. I don't know if that's true or not, but I've only got my own experience to go off. So I do feel like to get a start, if you've got an idea, if you've got something you want to bring to life, there is a little bit of hustle that's going to be required. But I don't think like that anymore. I think the main belief I have is this sacredness of our relationships. And especially for me, to sacredness, the sacredness of my father and my family, so my husband and my two kids. And ultimately, and it's really hard because I'm an overachiever too. So I get so caught up in doing this, doing that, doing this. And I've got to take a step back and say, what's the most important thing? It's your relationship with your husband, your relationship with your kids. You're going to make sure they're doing good. You've got to make sure that you're doing good. And then if everything's okay, then you can put some energy back into the world. And maybe that's just for this season of life too with young kids. Yeah. And also, it's also a bit of a privilege to be in that position right now. I'd like to be able to be a bit picky with work and not have to go to a job that I fucking hate 'cause I have to pay the mortgage, you know? Yeah, it is a really good privileged position that I'm speaking on. And I don't wanna diminish other people's experiences. If they're listening to this in the car, commuting to their job that they hate, thinking like a lot to reassure you so out of touch with reality, yeah, 'cause I don't, yeah. That's not true for everyone. No, but you're also using your privilege in such a positive way to make positive change to empower others. So it's like, I think, yeah, yeah. Like what a gift to the world that you are to use. Because there's a lot of people with a lot of privilege who aren't doing, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, you know, there's a lot of people with a lot of privilege and a lot of money and a lot of freedom. And they're not making the change or the impact or, you know, the you are. That's right, that's what I learned through burnout too though, because yeah, I can't keep doing this work. I can't keep it up. I can't continue this if I just keep using up my mana really nilly and wasting it on things that I don't really believe in. So maybe I'm more hesitant, a little more cautious before I jump into things. I love that. That's actually sometimes growth isn't it? Yeah, growth is going through it and realizing it's all. And I look at emails and I just think, I'm not fucking doing that. You know, I'm not doing that. I'm sorry. You know, yeah, whereas I think when I like, even when I first started speaking, I went to this speech once and the event organiser was like, can you go out the front and meet every single person that walks in the door? And I was like, sure. Why not? And then if they asked, if they asked me to do that now, just say no. Your energy, you would have been so concerned. Yeah, but I like, how would I? I didn't know. Yeah. I didn't know. I was like, OK. And it's all these lessons. Yeah, yeah. It's moments where you're like, oh, that actually felt like she was like, yeah, exhausting. Yeah. That was too much. Yeah. So it's all these moments of growth. Yeah, yeah. I'll just like things probably that you learn the hard way. And you're like, well, I won't be doing. I won't be doing that again. Yeah, yeah. Now your book, we've obviously covered a few of the topics that are in there, but it is just-- Sorry, you're such a good interviewer. I just keep going off tangent. And you're just like, let's throw that back to one way here. But I just want to say as well, I did actually do the narration for the book on Audible. Oh, you did it. Yeah, I did it. Yeah, I did it. What was that experience like? It was fucked. Yeah. I lost my voice. I lost my voice. I was like, how could it be? I'm just reading a book that I've already written. Oh, my goodness. It's actually quite exhausting. Quite exhausting. But one of the good things about listening to an Audible is like, when you read a book-- You read someone's story. You get the info. That's great. But when you listen to it, you get access to another level of information. Because you get access into how the author feels. Because you can hear the pauses, the hesitation, the uncertainty, when they get emotional, and their voice starts wavering. So I actually really like really lovely listening to people's memoirs on audio books. That was part of the reason why I did this book selfish on an audio book too. Because it was such a sprozole. I was going to say it was so personal. All my books have been personal. But I feel like it was a little bit another level. Yeah. And they shared with me some narrators who were all great. But I was listening to them and I was thinking, I actually feel like it should be me telling this story. Yeah. And I feel exactly what you said, the emotion and the energy that you can feel in someone's voice. Yeah. And that is so much more powerful than, say, a polished narrator who's been taught how and trained. Yeah. How sweet. Exactly. And also getting their producer to go, can you just say that line again? I've said it now. I've said it. Just a once more, you know. No, that was fun. Yeah. And also, like, I feel like my voice, everyone's voices unique, right? Everyone's voices, their signature. But I also think that with people's voices, you can kind of learn about their life story, too. I really love, like, and you've touched on it already with your environment, like your family. Yeah. What your environment gives to you, and it gives to you. And I guess on privilege, not everyone has the privilege of having a super nourishing, uplifting, connected environment. Totally. People are toxic work environments. I know what I've toxic, toxic friendship. Toxic go home to a toxic relationship. Absolutely. Yeah. Toxic parents who don't understand where they're going. Totally. So being able to actually nourish your mind with an audio book is like, that's a way of building your environment. Because I feel like what we consume, we obviously become-- Oh. --tutally. --tutally. --thoughts-- it becomes our thoughts. It becomes our beliefs. It becomes our truths. So when we're actually really consciously-- Yeah. --feeling our environment through what we watch on the screen, what we listen to in a really positive way, that's literally altering the brain chemistry-- Yeah. --in a blind. --in a blind. It's filtered. And then it's allowing you to attract better relationships and better environments because your mind is becoming so aligned with that. And I think that's what books like yours does. Is it actually allows people to build these super nourishing environments-- Yeah. --tutally. --tutally. And you don't maybe always get that from physically reading, but I feel like listening to someone's voice is just a whole-- you feel like you're a part of their world. Like you feel like your friends with them. Yeah. And I suppose that's why podcasts are good too, though. Yeah. Yeah. Because you get-- Yeah, you get to build on that. Yeah, you get that insight. Yeah. Trey, I've loved connecting with you and chatting to you. And I know the themes that we've spoken about today is just so in alignment with where the women who listen to this podcast are. And I'd love to just hear a little bit more about your work as well, because I know there'll be so many people just wanting to dive deeper into your world. But how do you support women? You've said you do that through empowerment, but what are some of the ways that people can come into your world to work with you as well as listening to your book, of course, on Audible? Yeah, I suppose a big part of what I do is writing. So writing newsletters, writing books-- that's a lot of thing. I've got an online coaching thing where a teacher and one who've never run before had her on their first five camera, we also do like half marathons and marathons. And yeah, ever since-- like the last time we spoke about our recent, then writing has taken off. Yes. And I love it because obviously it's something that I like to do. But it's just such a cool-- it's a really cool, leisurely activity to be able to participate in. But I noticed, again, that there was all of these barriers for why women weren't participating. So some of them were things like they were overwhelmed with the mental load, all of the decisions they'd made throughout the day. But then I realized that a lot of women didn't feel safe when they went for a run. And so what I did is I actually did a national survey. And I took the results. And I took them to Parliament House to try and advocate for change because in the results of my survey, like 3/4 of the women had experienced some kind of violence or harassment. And now they're going for a run. And you were a runner? No, I'm not sorry. OK. This guy, you just lied. I know. But when you said you teached 5k, my daughter had her first cross country. And I said to her, maybe we need to start running together. Yes. I loved cross-- like as a kid. You loved it. You loved it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I always think it's a one thing you can do for free and at any time as a mum. Everything else you restrict-- like a class you restrict to-- Totally. Yeah. I'm like, oh, wow. Just putting on the runners and like being able to do that. Yeah. So definitely on the way. So I'll come to you. And that's what she's been though, because it's such like an accessible sport. Yes. But-- They're not feeling safe. Then there's all of these-- You know, all of these other barriers in the way. And for some people, for cultural reasons, it might not be as permissible for them to go for a run. But then you've got this other thing of like, we're not feeling safe when they go for a run. Yeah. Which is actually-- Absolutely, getting dark. Like it gets dark. Totally. Totally. And so I've got women in my community who will only run on a treadmill inside their house. And like, however you want to run, you do what you need to. That's great. That's awesome. You're still doing it. But I just think it's so grim that they don't feel safe enough to go outside. And it's not like they're just imagining all of this stuff in their mind. They go out. They get people hurling, obscene things at them from the car windows. they get people like still. walking them on their run. You know, they get people who would typically be a man, you know, standing in the middle of their path. So like little wonder that they don't feel safe enough to go for a run and then they can't access all of those benefits that are participating in the sport like running does. Mental health makes you feel empowered, helps to alleviate the mental load, which is what I talked about in the book, stress, all of those things. So that's probably one of my biggest pain points, I suppose, that I would love to try and solve. Yes, yes. So once that to me last night, like if it was, like if it could be, I think they're taking the piece so. They're like, what if we made it legal for women to carry tases and I was like, sure, I'll add that to the list. Yeah, I think they get it. Like maybe that's what it like. I don't know. I don't know. No, I think there's otherwise. And it's all about like, you know, if women are respected in the home. I was going to say it's education isn't it? Yeah. And it's about, yeah. Totally. Yeah. It's creating that change, like if it's in male friendship groups. Yeah. Like that's why I said we need male children. Yeah. Because we can't just have people standing by. Yeah. Saying those sort of things. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And like it's not just, it's not just, you know, oh, women don't feel safe when they go for a run. That's a woman's problem. Yeah. You know, it can't just be a woman's problem. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time. Yeah. I think it was so long. And life. It's been amazing. Yeah, it's been great to chat with you. Thanks so much for having me. And thank you so much for like saying this to this, especially when you're talking about your boundaries and things to say now. I like, I generally felt so honored that you have capacity. That's why I have capacity. Because it's so memorable. Yeah. It's time and energy to these days. Yeah. I appreciate it so much. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you so much.