46. Building with Ego, Leading Without It, with Anda Gansca, CEO, Knotch

Welcome back to Humans and Brands. I'm your host Florence Eglis And this is the podcast where I talk to people who are building companies and careers in real-time Not just about what they're building, but how they're thinking about building it The tension and the trade-offs and the parts that don't always fit neatly into a pitch deck or a lintin post This week I sat down with Anda Ganska, the CEO of Notch and we had one of those conversations that goes a little off the expected path But in the best way we talked about spirituality and capitalism and why the idea that business has to be as zero-sum game isn't particularly interesting or accurate We unpacked what it looks like to build companies that are genuinely win-win-win for employees, customers and stakeholders without losing ambition or rigor We also talked about Anda's decision to move to Ohio, California And what it means to live a little outside the traditional tech bubble and how being more connected to nature has made her a clearer, more creative, and more compassionate leader If you're somebody who believes business can be serious and human, ambitious and thoughtful, I think you're really going to love this one. Let's get into it Well, I'll let the extra come to humans and brands. I'm excited to talk to you. I think we should start off We don't know each other. So this is fun. So I think like can we start off with a little bit of Talk to me about your business, why you started it, what you guys do, and kind of like what led you down that pathway to start your own company So you asked me where I was from. I was born and raised in Transylvania. I'm very proud to be Transylvania and Albanian And I came to the US with a really big dream. I kept telling my parents. I'm going to start a revolution I'm going to start a revolution and I landed in Silicon Valley, studied, um, ended up focusing on data science and The path kind of led me naturally into entrepreneurship. My parents were also entrepreneurs And even though I wasn't necessarily trying to be who they who they were, but there was something about the creative freedom to get to build your own thing That really attracted me to it and then boy-o-boy the journey of entrepreneurship is You know, not what you expect it to be. Yeah, not linear. Yeah, exactly. At the time I was reading, you know, about Evan Spiegel And all these other founders who within a few years had become multi-billionaires and had built these empires But as it turns out, entrepreneurship is just a really humbling experience that breaks you down And really finds a way to trigger all of the different things inside of you that you didn't know you had Trust me, I know and also we're going to talk about it, but like Talk about like spirituality and like having to face yourself and look in the mirror like On like entrepreneurship really does make you do that, you know, it's like Oh, you think that you're like good at this like yes Show up every day and do the same thing consistently for the next five years or you think you've dealt with your fear of failure or your fear of Whatever letting people down like let me let me show you that you haven't and it's a daily reminder It's very humbling and so I I Kind of realized that it takes so much ego to start a business because you have to believe that you alone have an idea that's better Anyone else and you alone can do it But then the the true kind of right-of-passage is when you have to let go of all your ego to actually build the business Whoa, um and so it was a turning point and then you need your ego to be smashed kind of Because I realized it has to stop being about you like as soon as you have a product and a team You're accountable to them or maybe another way to say it is the shift from founder to CEO You know founder is a title. You always have it's kind of like being a mom like you're always going to be a mom As soon as you ever kid, but a CEO is a job and that job you have to earn every single day And that job is not about you. It's about the people you serve It's about the shareholders. It's about the clients and having that mental shift as a founder. I think is really hard So anyway, I know I didn't fully answer more questions like that, but but that's really no sharing a bit about the journey founder CEO like I just love it. I think it's so smart. I mean we talked a little bit before we started recording about like the second half of life stuff And that's real second half of life stuff. That's like okay. I'm gonna. I've got the hot spot to start this business I'm gonna do this. I'm the only person that can do it. I'm gonna. I'm a founder I'm an innovator and then you get to it and you start it and now you're like oh shit Like I now I may see you and it's not about me anymore. It's about the people I think it's actually when you make the switch into I've actually built something that's taking off That's when it's like when you when you're like oh my god I've worked so hard and now we're here and you think you're just gonna be able to enjoy it or something But there's a switch and that's when you become accountable to the product because the product is like the baby that you created and it's now it has its own You know life and it's an agenda and so on and so forth So I don't know. I think once I made the mental shift and I realized I am now in service of Of another slash others. I was able to To understand that like my higher purpose is to really follow through with that and to to be committed to the mission of it And something really wonderful happened within me and so for the last few years I've really been committed to growing the team growing the business and honestly first and foremost really doing right by our customers and putting their needs and their pain at the core of How we think how we operate how we deliver and so on and so forth in terms of what the business does by the way Because I have haven't even told you about that. Well, yeah, so tell me so tell me about the business Yeah, yeah, so look I'm a data nerd and I knew that I wanted to be in the business of data I've always been fascinated by human beings So I've wanted to understand that how could we collect data about people's behavior or people's feelings and what really makes them tick I think it's never been more important than today to understand how human psychology is influenced by content by LLM's By everything we see on the internet and how that then drives decision-making behavior Whether it's about who we vote for or what we buy and so notch was really started as an experiment to figure that out and over time it became really an intelligence platform for brands to tap into that mindset of the consumer and as we evolved the functionality and kept listening to our customers We went from just intelligence to optimization So how once you understand what makes people tick how do you actually Really give them more of what they value so that they choose to do business with you And ultimately I think over time what I've seen we do with all of our customers is that we repair the value exchange between Their brand that they were advertising and their consumers So that they're giving more value to the consumers and the consumers at some point when the moment is right they choose to do business with them Interesting and how does that like how does data bring that relationship closer? How does it how do you help mend that relationship using data? So we collect the data at the moment of interaction whenever the audience actually sees the piece of creative or content and We essentially start to analyze what is that signal from the audience? What is it saying? What is the audience trying to tell us? Sometimes our platform also allows brands to ask the audience, you know, in a moment when it's right like how how does this feel? Was this relevant to you because I really believe the truth is at the intersection of what we say about ourselves and What our behavior says about us. Yeah, and so our platform is built around that belief cool to all of that data Then feedbacks and goes into a feedback loop into the creative process the distribution process So that when brands create again to meet you they understand more about who you are and what you want cool And is it agnostic across like platforms and channels so like you could talk to somebody on tiktok or on the open web or how do you I guess like get in front of the customer Yeah, so so we get deployed across every brand owned or brand digital property And every audience that arrives there regardless of whether they're coming from tiktok or any other paid channel paid campaign We are able to track where they're coming from how they're interacting what are the kind of multiple touchpoints across many different sessions Even if it takes a year for that person to convert and then use that intelligence to really help our customers Make that journey better for both themselves and the customer. Okay, cool. That's that's really interesting What made you decide like or I guess have you had to was this the idea on day one and it's just gone perfectly well or like have you had to pivot throughout your journey of starting the company have you had to like Yeah, make some changes and pick actually we're gonna we're gonna pivot this way So let me tell you that I think the notion of product market fit and The idea that you kind of land on something and you stick to it. I think it's a deeply flawed idea. Yeah, it's one of those truisms and software that I I hope I can participate in breaking down. Yeah I think you know, so the answers know the the very first idea could never been more different It was a social network for people to share how they feel about Stuff and then connect based on it the core of the data collection was there my interest in passion was there the mission was the same Because we wanted to take that data and create a better value exchange between brands and audiences, but the mechanism of Collection where we collected delivery the client the visualization of the data how the data empowered the brands that wasn't there We didn't really have a great vision for that So I would say that was maybe harder pivot when we went from just Being primarily focused on the consumer to being focused on the brand But then every I don't know it used to be every year now. It's probably every three to six months because of AI There's smaller pivots in in what we do and I think if we don't pivot we don't survive because The idea of product market fit is predicated on the idea that market stays the same But market is not the same market is changing so quickly. Yeah, with agenda AI That we have to you know stay ahead of it. Yeah, absolutely. That makes a ton of sense And then how do you like? Think about those pivots. Do you think about it? I was like okay great. It's Tuesday. We're making a pivot and that's okay or is it like a Uh, is it like there's a sense of like this is kind of painful but we have I'm so sorry guys We're gonna have to pivot again, you know what I mean? Is it built into the foundation? I guess so um look I'm a first-time founder. I've made every mistake possible Okay, um, and I feel like as a result. I have I've been able to you know reflect and change based on that So at the beginning it felt really painful Looking back and I realized that the reason it felt painful is because we waited for too long And so now instead of you were attached to it you were attached to what you wanted it to be I think it was emotional attachment But I think if you follow your intellect and the data you end up Turning too slowly Because the data will tell you this is working. This is great. You're actually growing faster You have to have some type of intuition and I think that's the responsibility that comes with being a founder You know a product visionary kind of founder You have to kind of read the tea leaves. You have to take the time to Reflect on what could be around the corner and if you turn early enough then it doesn't even feel like a pivot Right, it feels like a build on it feels like an innovation like an innovation Right, and you can integrate it organically into what you do and to how the customers perceive you into the value they receive And into how your team actually thinks of the company whereas if you pivot a little bit too late It feels like a need your reaction and you're often caught on the reactive side of it or on the defense. Yeah Um, I think there's two threads. I want to pull on there one is About how you've made a very mistake in the book because I'm also a founder and I'm making mistakes left and right So I want to pull on that thread But I also want to pull on the thread of how do you Of you taking that data and sitting down with it and digesting it and understanding like okay We're gonna go on this direction or the data is telling us reading the tea leaves as you said like if you're How much How much time do you spend on that? How do you make yourself do that? How do you like because obviously you're busy You're running this business. You're in meetings all day. You have a child. You're you have a family like how How do you find the time to sit down and say I'm gonna dedicate and and I'm just asking like is it is it you build this into your week I'm gonna dedicate like three hours to just like blue sky thinking this week or how do you find the time To like to to be able to do that deep thinking Um, I realized About two or three years two years ago that it's my job and my responsibility To do that and if I don't do it no one else well the company will hurt right and I think I think deeply About the responsibility I have to everyone who has chosen to trust their livelihood By working at notch So I take it very seriously. I take it as like if I don't do this Then I'm not doing right by the people who believed in us the the the our employees first and foremost our customers and our investors So what I do um, I take two days a week that are dedicated to internal meetings I call them focus days. I try not to have meetings at all if I can help it Sometimes external meetings land and that's okay, but I minimize them and I go on very long solo walks on those days Genius and I just I just think and I sometimes just let things come up Sometimes I feel things and I pursue the feeling to see what comes up So yeah, I also it's not a linear process, but I know that I have to do it every time I do it I come back with something New and fresh and exciting and then I call my co-founder. I call my COO Then I'm like hey, what does this mean and how do we make it a reality? That's interesting I love that idea of like giving yourself that that Time where you're not being pulled. I was talking to a friend who's an artist recently and I was telling him I run a PR agency Okay, and I was like I my problem is a lot of times when I try to go into deep thinking work or I try to go into that mode I feel bad. I feel like I'm leaving My slacks unanswered my emails unanswered like I'm not at my client. I'm not being there for my clients I'm not and he was like yeah, I don't know how you're ever He's a painter. He's like I go into my studio and I don't talk to anyone I leave my phone in the other room and I don't speak to anyone for like 10 hours I don't know how you could possibly have a creative idea or a creative and intuition If you're constantly connected to slack. Yeah, and I was like oh like that, you know, that's such a good point It's like investing the time in the walk or investing the time in like the taking the space is like a necessary thing to make your business stronger I want to make two points that the first one I really believe that as AI and agente AI Becomes wider spread. I think we will inevitably have less things to do And the notion that to be valuable as a human you have to be productive will break down And I think we're gonna have to do a lot of soul-searching as a race about like what is our purpose because it's not going to be productivity anymore So that's like a meta that's very I mean that's a very altus. Huxley had that and he always just talks about I know but he talks about we we may only work 10 hours a week yeah, and what will we do with the rest of our time? I think that I think that's okay. I mean maybe we'll finally have time to figure out what our actual purposes You know, but beyond that you know on a practical level I do want to kind of come back into reality. I would not be able to take this time unless I had a great team and It took years to find an incredible leadership team and I got so many People or decisions around people wrong and it was painful and so on and so forth So you know, and when there's a fire I jump in there with my team It's not like I go meditate on the future of the world So it I want to be realistic. It takes time to build a great team to build a business that has stability a profitable growing business so I feel like I now have Earned myself the right and also I have the responsibility to take this time But I think that you know you kind of have tussle to get here right right right right you have to like lay the foundational work Yes, so that you can do some naval gazing Which I think makes sense um okay, so back to the to the question of like founder mistakes because I guess that's a right of passage You just have to do them and and there's no book that you can read that's going to be like hey avoid xy and z or even if it even if it's had that you would still not I mean it's a bumble your way going back to the idea that founders have ego to start right ego to start I think even if there was a book you'd be like I don't want you to need read any books Like I'm going to figure this out right and you need that to get started right It's okay. Yeah. Yeah, so my mantra was always Companies don't fail people give up and so I kept repeating that to myself through all those Darwinian years where there were so many more ways to die than ways to live And honestly at times that was the only thing that was keeping me going and probably keeping the company alive Can you say that one more time? Companies don't fail people give up. Mm-hmm. Yeah Right. Yeah. Right. You're you're If you give up you're definitely going to fail like that is the you know I mean not saying that you shouldn't give up like sometimes. Maybe that's the right decision But I was raised in a way where That wasn't and I'm grateful to it because it's it's part of who I am and you know my my DNA and my truth And so by by staying true to that I you know, I'm kind of living out what I'm supposed to live out But for others it may not be the case. I do think that that's a bit of a requisite for Building a big company because there's again so many ways to die and I think that time repeats doing it about 10 Right, and so that yeah, so 10 is like long enough now. Yeah, we've gone through a lot of those things Yes, had your dark night of the soul totally you've had times where you're like well, this isn't gonna work Yes, it's gonna fail. How do I pay payroll this month? I'm assuming yes, and so You you've kind of come out the other side at this point. Yes, and and now you have this beautiful business that you can like feel proud of I'm in you you're too and I keep having to remind myself as you said just like don't quit keep going say consistent and It takes a long time you know, it takes a long time I think it takes a long time if you want to build a durable business that does right by its customers and people It might take a shorter time if you want to flip a business. It's kind of I think it's kind of like real estate in a way right Yeah, I think one of the mindsets that's tough as a founder is um You know, we we all raise money in tech um, and I think there's a mindset that you're not successful unless you manage to flip And I actually think the best investors are patient investors because they know that the bigger You know kind of foundational generational company will be built in time with a lot of the right fundamentals And even public markets I think in the last few years after the COVID frenzy Have started to reward companies that are able to grow really well, but grow profitably Well, I mean, I think that is good news for people like you who have the guts to stick through it and keep going and want to Want to build an actual successful business and not just flip to the next thing I mean, I I'm doing it first and foremost because I love what I do And every day I feel like I'm the luckiest person like I'm flying, you know, it's amazing I just I love what I do that's amazing, and I love the people that I do it with. That's a huge part of it I love our customers. I love how passionate they are about what we do and what we can do together And so the rest is just fun, you know, I mean even the hard stuff is fun to some extent if you approach it the right way Do you um how many people do you have working for you? We're close to 150 now So you have 150 people that like Yeah, like they're here Because you started this thing and kept going with it. Yeah, and like that is really cool. Yeah. Yeah I mean, but you know, I don't I don't think about that necessarily to be honest But at the end of the day like you're kind you kind of are as you said before you are responsible I think about the responsibility for sure for sure What I think is cool like the this the when I get out of bed and I'm like wow I get to do this is the fact that You know, it is it is my values It is the culture that I believe we should build in a business It is the opportunity to maybe ring in a new wave of capitalism a new wave of how you build a company like that sort of stuff Gets me really excited beyond the fact that I love what we do and our customers and so on So I I've been thinking about that more and more and how do I verbalize that in a way that could maybe create a bigger Yeah, as a If some unsolicited free advice as from a marketing and PR person I think that you should start talking about that maybe you can help me Yeah, in a bigger way on a bigger platform because that's really important And I think coming from a female founder saying that we need to rethink that way that we're doing capitalism That we can have a businesses that are win-win that we can have You know relationships with clients and customers that are win-win that we can build long-term businesses that like matter And we don't have to you know be in and out that you can find investors that believe in the vision like yeah That you can care about your team and feel responsible to them like I just feel like these are things that you should be speaking totally and also that it's not a zero-sum game and everyone is after some game I feel like every time I let it shine on everybody on x you know twitter x all these Founders who are usually guys they're just all like they think they're competing with one another but really They're competing for customer attention and I don't know It's it's two very different things and so I often consider that like it's not a zero-sum game AI is actually lifting all boats. There's ways for all of us to win It's just different the playbook is different. So anyway. Yeah, I if there's one thing. I'm not great at is Marketing myself. So maybe you can help me with that. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that makes sense I mean you've been focused for 10 years on a project and in it on a You know, you've had a mission and like the mission wasn't about you. Yeah And now you're probably at that point where it's like okay. Well, how can I help to talk about this and like talk about this experience? Because I think it will the reason going back to the reason is because it will help other founders. It will help other Executives will help other women. You know what I mean? I do think that they're like there's a There's a net positive to it. It's not just about like you elevating yourself It's like you're elevating yourself to say these messages that other people need to hear I hope so. Yeah, I love it. It would be fun to do. Yeah, I love it. Okay, so If you had some advice to give to your young self as you were just starting the business, what would you tell her? Um, I would tell her oh gosh. I mean, I think as a founder I had so many of the right things at the time which is Passion grit determination Focus the things that I wasn't able to do really well at that point. I didn't have a lot of Emotional clarity or just clarity in general and I think it came from a An insecurity like kind of a bit of a self-worth issue Because ego and insecurity, they're like the same thing You know, maybe just of one another. I would say behind every superiority at complexes and inferiority Exactly. And so I kind of want to say to her You know, you kind of have to deal with that like just know that You're going to have to go into the dark closets and deal with that before you can build a big business You can't build an empire if you can't escape the haunted forest And as that was the haunted forest within Of course it always is It always is yeah, yeah, and I mean, it's like Brad and I sometimes talk about like it's okay like that's the journey and that's the path and You were meant to make the mistakes you were meant to like Figure these things out, you know, but like Yeah, like looking back. It's like okay. Well what advice could I give that younger me where I could just be like Just hold on. It's gonna be okay It's kind of like trust the journey be patient. Yeah, yeah, like flow a little bit more I wasted so much energy pushing against walls that were immovable, you know If I could just let go and focus on the other stuff. I probably would have actually moved faster how has being a mom Changed some of that for you. I imagine pushing against walls that are not moving Become and letting that go becomes easier when you have other priorities that you're focused on So like how has becoming a mom changed your your POV as a founder? Well Let me tell you something. I know that there's kind of a correct answer to this And I feel all those things, you know, I feel that it has made me more empathetic and more open and you know I feel like at that point my my leadership team had almost everyone I think everyone actually were parents So it enabled me to better understand and and work with them But I do honestly feel like for a while there I was a worse CEO You know being pregnant for me was tough at times and postpartum was really tough And I didn't have the ability to make very good decisions I was so overwhelmed emotionally and physically And it was a tough time for the business and you know, I don't think I made the best decision So I've said this to my team a few times But conversely, you know, I've gone through the process of really breaking down as a result of becoming a mom I feel like all the stuff that I was the kind of dark closets I was running away from they all came And so as I work through them and now that I have worked through them I am, you know, like a hundred times better CEO than I was before So I don't know how to really like do the net math on that But there was there was a journey there It wasn't like this beautiful screen of the thing where I was just growing the whole time And then now I'm breastfeeding while answering emails It wasn't like that at all, it was dark at times Yeah, I had to work through it to get to this place And now I mean, I have days where I feel like I'm not doing right by anyone Like the mom guilt is real, I don't know how it's so deeply embedded Like at a cellular level in spite of my awareness of it But then I have some days where I'm like, I can do everything And the difference maker and the thing that really fills my heart is other moms I feel like I've found this amazing community of other moms who whether they're working or not are just so kind and supportive That's awesome Yeah, and I think it's a little bit of the Ohio like spiritual floor text of it all I mean, I kind of we sort of moved there because of the community Yeah, that's cool There's something about that place that's very like live and let live There's nothing worse than being in a difficult place as a mom and feeling judged while also judging yourself And so finding that group of women that can, you know, stand in their power and also kind of let you be up and down and all over the place and support you is a true difference maker It's really cool Well, thank you so much for joining me I just loved our conversation It's so fun to like get to hear from women who are founders and CEOs and figuring this stuff out and then also have this like perspective of spirituality and you know like the bigger mission of life, the bigger purpose of life like it's just I don't know, it's really cool and I'm glad we got a chance to talk No, I appreciate your questions were great You took me to a place that didn't expect me to go so thank you Well, Anna, thank you so much for joining me Of course That's it for this week's episode of Humans and Brands We've got new conversations dropping every week so be sure to follow along wherever you listen A huge thank you to my producer Brad Stewart and of course to you The listener for being a part of the journey I'd love to hear from you reach out to me on social at Lauren the Seeker With your ideas for the show questions or just to say hi Have a good week and remember you're not navigating your career path alone