Building the Star Trek computer with Huxe's Raiza Martin

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Which Star Trek captain is your favorite? Oh my gosh, there's only one. I can't believe it. Of course it's Picard. I mean, I grew up with Janeway. I don't know. Janeway's number two. Do it. I feel very strongly about this. Yo, as long as we're pulling from references outside of her and minority report, I think we're going to have a better time than the average tech podcast or company. Welcome to Access from the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Alice Hamburger, here with my co-host Alex Heath. Today we caught up with Ryza Martin, co-founder of Hux, a new app that turns your calendar emails and news into a daily personalized podcast just for you. I think it's pretty fresh. Honestly, one of my favorite apps I've tried lately and a really nice opinionated take on making all this research behind AI a bit more practical. Before Hux, you might have known Ryza as the creator of Notebook LM at Google, one of their bigger experimental product successes of the last few years. Yeah, this was a fun one, Alex. Yeah, Ryza's awesome. We really got into it. I loved hearing about her backstory too and just how she's thinking about all this and how she's thinking about putting us out of a job. Yeah, I love that part. Don't often think about getting disrupted in this profession, this line of work, but yeah, I guess we have to look over our shoulders. Today we get into everything from raising VC money without a deck. Didn't see that coming. Building the Star Trek computer of Ryza's dreams since she was just a child and whether Hux is going to disrupt your new favorite podcast hosts. Before we've even gotten to our 100th episode, let alone our 10th. We're not episode 10, yeah, oh man, wild times, we're just a baby podcast. Please like and subscribe, folks, please like and subscribe. But first, a couple of things to discuss. We are taping on Tuesday, yesterday Alex was in San Francisco for the sixth time in the last six days. How was opening Eye Dev Day? Yeah, did the classic Burbank to Oakland Day trip, which has become a regular fixture of of my life and it was a good day. It was a long day, got some FaceTime with OpenAI execs at Sama, interviewed Greg Brockman. There was a pretty lengthy Q&A where we got to ask a lot of questions and that was pretty interesting. Yeah, just generally feeling the vibes. I wrote about this in sources, my newsletter sources.news, but it just is so clear how OpenAI owns the tech culture, like guys right now, just how ascendant and seemingly unstoppable they are. This was at Fort Mason in San Francisco, which the last time I went to an event there was actually earlier this year for another Sam Alden special, World Coin, which is a very sci-fi eyeball scanning orb startup that will maybe one day save us from AGI running the economy. That's a whole another topic we don't have time to get into today. But I was also actually thinking about when I went to Fort Mason for events way back in the day. Do you know about the space? It's kind of down by the golden gate bridge. It's beautiful. Is it down on the water? Have you been there before else? No, I don't get invited to events to that caliber. Well, yeah, that's why I started a podcast. Facebook used to have its developer conference back when it was called FA there, and I remember going there, God, it must be like 2018, 2017 or something. And the energy felt retro in that way, like there was just so much interest in OpenAI as this platform for developers and then building this new culture, like kind of right before everyone's eyes, and only a matter of a couple of years. There is this moment where I took this photo of walking into the main hall, thousands of people just solemnly seated, just trying to learn everything they can about all the new agents stuff that OpenAI announced. And it was wild to think about like this company as a commercial entity did not exist, like fourth and three years ago, and now it's like the place to be this week in SF was at this event. And it even reminded me, and this is probably because Johnny Ive was the penultimate conversation he and Sam did a chat at the end of the day. Even like an early Macworld vibe, which I hadn't felt at an event in a long time, just in terms of the energy. Yeah, for now, it seems like OpenAI is on top of the world, and I guess the question is, can they stay there? Yeah, I mean, if you would have told us a few years ago that there'd be a new product that has 800 million weekly active users, and that is the only thing that anyone wants to write or talk about, and Sir Johnny Ive is even involved, you would have them like, excuse me. Yeah, and I think the big thing for me was the OpenAI now wants to be this distribution surface for apps. They basically want ChatGPT to exist upstream of your digital life. And the big shift was like you can use Spotify in ChatGPT, the actual graphical interface, not just kick you out to the app, or Zillow, or Coursera, they at Figma, shout out previous guest Dylan Field like he was there. And this idea that ChatGPT is more like an operating system, was the theme of the day for sure, at the Q&A with the exact Afro-Kino, Nick Turley, the head of ChatGPT, said a quote that really stuck with me, he said, "What you're going to see over the next six months is an evolution of ChatGPT from an app that was really useful into something that feels a little bit more like an operating system where you can access goods and services." So this idea of the ChatGPT economy is, I think, I think we're going to be talking about more in the months ahead. Yeah. I mean, everybody and their mother wants to be an operating system in tech. I mean, that's the ultimate honor. That's, honestly, one of the things I enjoyed most about being at Snapchat and the browser company. I mean, there was a time where Snapchat was kind of like, you could call it the operating system for Gen Z, there was a camera app, there was a photos app, there was a news app, there was a messaging app, and it's so fun to try and use your position to help people in multiple parts of their lives. And now that people are starting to ask ChatGPT more and more things, they're in a position to capture that intent the way Google once could, but now, actually, due to agents take action as well, whether you want to play a song or this or that. I mean, that's kind of the crazy part is that Apple is really the company that, or Google with Android are so well positioned to try and figure this stuff out and say, hey, we're going to be in between you and everything your phone can do. I feel like Apple was working on App Intense a little while ago. I'm not, I'm not even sure what happened with that. But as everybody kind of sits around and says, oh, it doesn't scale or we can't make it work. Open AI is like, we're just going to do this with our services partners just through the web. You don't even need to have a hardware piece. They're going to make hardware as well, just to see if they can beat everybody there as well. But yeah, it really does feel like there is a new OS race going on with AI at the center of it. I mean, as we talk about with Riza, it's like AI in voice is not great for everything. You can't draw an entire user interface for looking through all your photos at least for now inside of ChatGPT, but you can bet that they're thinking about it and trying to move toward a world where whatever modality you want to choose, they're going to let you. Yeah, there was a moment in the Johnny Sam talk where I mean, Johnny, you know, he's really good at saying a lot and not saying much at all in terms of giving things away. I think everyone was on the edge of there's, yeah, I think everyone was on the edge of their seat. I mean, he was like the celebrity of the day. Like everyone was taking their phones out to take photos as he came on stage like, oh, is he finally going to share with this first devices? He's working on with Open AI and of course, he did it. There was a moment to your point about the OS where Sam asked, you know, does an OS even matter anymore? Like should we be rethinking like the value of an operating system with AI? And Johnny seemed to agree that the OS matters less and less, especially with voice. And I do think their device will be voice. A really funny thing actually would now that I'm remembering that I heard from a source recently was that Johnny's been thinking a lot about the Walkman and how this device could be culturally fun and he was talking about this on stage like, can we just go back to making things that are fun and not so serious. And I actually do expect this first device that they put out to be a little more whimsical than maybe people will expect. The visionaries seem to go very much one way or the other, I feel like. I mean, one of the things I'm reminded of is when Kanye West collaborated with teenage engineering on the original STEM player, it started as like very industrial and minimal and Kanye being as kind of plugged into culture as he is and thinking about art as kind of this. Well, you know, amorphous organic, organic process. He's like, actually, no, we're scratching this entire thing. We're going to make it like an alien flesh ball, you know, from like a Kronenberg movie or something like that. And that's what he ended up going out with. And there is no doubt that it felt true to like his vision and also just even more differentiated. So yeah, I would bet you're right that whether it's color, whether it's with rubber cases, whether it is with Johnny doing another iPod sock, I forget if that was his idea. Do you remember that one? The original iPod mini had a sock, you could put it, put it. No, I feel bad that I don't, as a former Apple blogger, I should know this, but now I forgot. It was like a little like Christmas stocking that you could drop your new iPad mini into. Yeah, I mean, Apple, you know, I don't know if they get enough credit for the accessories around their around their products, but the only other thing I'll say about Deb Day, and this was in my in sources, but it was a really funny moment. It just kind of like encapsulated to me the moment we're living in and the degenerational culture shift in tech that's happening because after Sam and Johnny got off stage, I ran outside to a table outside of the venue and it happened to be right next to Johnny's Range Rover where I could tell like his security was there and he was going to come out and get jetted out of the venue pretty fast. I was sitting there riding, you know, finishing up the hit send for sources and Johnny comes out. He gets mobbed, right? It's a car photo. There's just like all these people trying to, there's a guy with the Montclair jacket that Johnny designed, wanting him to sign it and, you know, he's like a rare bonafide celebrity that kind of crosses the cross cuts across in different age groups. And anyway, I'm sitting there and watching all this happen and then there's these probably like early 20s developers next to me at a table that I don't think they could tell I was overhearing them and they were all like, you know, watching it and they're like, should we go over there? Oh, that's Johnny. Should we go like get a selfie? And I swear to God, one of them just like deadpanned, totally serious. Like, why would I do that when I can put him in any sort of video I want? And then they were all just like, yeah, good point. And then they walked away and I was like, damn, that's like, that is this moment in a nutshell. It's like, open AI, the most valuable private company in the world has Johnny I have, you know, the most legendary tech designer of all time doing hardware. And at the same time, this is a company that is just like really resetting how we think about the future while also pulling from the past. I just thought it was a funny moment. Well, it is interesting, right? Because at the same time that that is happening with this fear of manufacturing, whatever we need at scale, the desire, whether it is for Johnny's snappy Montclair jacket or the new thinking hats from Claude, I mean, there is a lot of reason to believe that this whole scarcity, you know, luxury of physical goods is going to be back with an absolute vengeance and stronger than ever. And I mean, it's not like the bar is even that high, like you make a thinking cap and 700 people line up on the street because it's rare. You know, whether it's with LeBoubou or anything else, happy I finally get to bring up LeBoubou on the pod. I think those two things go hand in hand, right? Yeah, for sure. I was actually really curious what you thought of that anthropic pop-up over the weekend in the West Village. It went super viral on Twitter. There were hundreds of people lined up. It made me yearn for the days when I was a baby New York tech reporter and I think I would have just, you know, gone and done like a 12 photo slideshow of like what it was like at the anthropic pop-up for BI or something like 10 years ago. I don't know. You're about that. Yes. I think it's fine. I liked it, but I think it's just another example of like tech people being exposed to like consumer fashion brand level work and they're like, holy shit, they're not talking about the product. That's incredible. They're just talking about their ethos. Wow. I need that hat. But it's like there was the outdoor voices like doing things hat, probably 10 years ago. I mean, to me, it's just kind of that in another way. And what's kind of ironic is that the people who want the thinking hat most are the ones who relative to the rest of the world are outsourcing their thinking most. Hey, I, you could say. Yeah, you're right. But hey, I mean, it's better than a hat that says use my app, actually, no, maybe that's a good ironic hat we could release. I do think it's smart that inthropic is positioning itself as anti-slop. I mean, the slap is working. People do like it. And I don't know how much you want to be in the position of being like the scold. Like let's get back to twirling our mustaches in thinking. Like sure. That appeals to a subset of intellectuals, probably myself included within tech. But I'm a lot more interested in the distinction between slap that has no conceivable purpose besides to just like tickle your lizard brain for a second or slap that just kind of looks sloppy. But it's still incorporated whatever your vision was for what you wanted to create. So yeah. Well speaking of no slop, speaking of actually good useful AI, should we go to our chat with Riza? Yeah. Let's kick it to Riza. All right. Let's go. Hawks. The result? Learn more at Accenture.com/Spotify. That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. Riza, welcome to the show. We're so happy to have you. Hello. Thank you for having me. And we all know audio is the very best format for entertainment and content these days. Something you've been thinking about, I know for a pretty long time, dating back to creating notebook, element, Google, and now hawks, why is audio such a thing for you? I mean, I think for me, the number one thing that I love about audio is it's the first way that we really transformed stuff with AI, right, where it's like you can take something in its original format. And specifically, I'm talking about the long PDFs, the long slides, the long emails. And you can say, look, instead of reading it on my screen for the next 30 minutes, I'm just going to go on a walk and listen to it. And that's been, for me, a magical experience over and over and over again, so I just want to keep exploring. Yeah, and take us back to your childhood. I know there was a moment back then I'm a Star Trek fan and so we told the off camera that you were into Star Trek. I was like, we need to talk about Star Trek as soon as possible. Because it's so funny, I actually have been rewatching a bunch of the next generation. And there was actually, specifically, a scene, you know, if anybody who's watched Star Trek, they do this thing where they're always talking to the computer. And it's just such a, if you've watched as a kid, you're just like, that's how computers ought to work. You stand in front of the thing and you say, computer. And then you issue the command, right? And it just happens. And like last night, the episode I was watching, Picard was like, computer, transfer all authorization to the new captain. It's like no flapping around with the computer, no transfer, no typing, right? Nobody's ever going. And it just happens. And so it's totally magical. I think it's the interface of the future. I would love to know about working at Google. You were there for a while, right? What was it like first arriving at Google, feeling the culture, figuring it out, and then up to when you left? Oh, man. I mean, these are pretty big, very distinct chunks in history for me. So when I arrived at Google, I didn't have a degree. And for me personally, it was like, I felt like I had snuck in somehow, especially because I felt like the people at Google that I was meeting were just like the smartest. is most creative, most accomplished people. And I was like, and somehow I'm in the leagues with them. And I had been working at startups previously. I basically done like every job at a startup. Eventually became head of product at like a small medium-sized startup. And so when I got to Google, I was like, half of me was like, wow, I earned this. I worked so hard to get here. But then the other half was like, oh no, it's like, how do I do my best to fit in? And so when actually starting out at Google, I feel like for the better part of like a year, I was just trying to be like everybody else that was there. And so I would do this thing where I would just like, copy how people were saying things, right? Like I use the word orthogonal so much. (both laughing) Somehow orthogonal made it all the way down to LA as well. - Oh no, that's-- - It snapped a few years ago, it was like a virus. - Oh, there's definitely-- - All the PMs started saying orthogonal and I'm like, all right, I see. I see, this is the new one. - orthogonal, it's not trivial, non-zero, right, we can keep going. But there's definitely like the vocabulary that I was like, oh, I gotta like say these words, I gotta do things a certain way, I have to write things a certain way, I just have to fit in so that they don't discover that I am who I am. And I think something happened, part way through. I started working in ads, I left ads, I started working in payments. And it was in payments that I had this realization where I was like, I didn't come here to go be somebody else. And guess I really would just like to be me. And it was this like kind of unfurling of my fake personality. (both laughing) Where I was just like, I just want to be me as I actually exactly am. And so I started going to meetings and I would say things like, wow, this is like a really stupid idea. Like I don't know why we came up with this, this is really bad, it's as if we didn't think about the user. And that was really controversial because Google is such a peaceful place where everybody is so smart and respectful towards each other. But if you just said things like that, people would be like, oh my gosh. You know why is she do it? And I had a lot of fun doing it. I realized this, I was like, wow, I think this would be me. And it actually seems to be a lot faster at getting the message across the writing a dog, socializing the dog, getting people on board. I was like, I have a totally different way of doing this, which is just I'm gonna say exactly what I think. And I had pretty good success in payments. I worked on these like zero-to-one features, zero-to-one product. And so in Google Labs had just started. My old boss, Josh Woodward, was one of the folks that started Google Labs with clay before. And I remember, I saw, you know, he left payments and he had joined this thing, totally new. There was like nobody in the org, it was just them. And I was like, oh, I bet this is one of those rest-in-vests situations, huh? I was like, I bet he's getting fired. - The scene in Silicon Valley, where they're chilling on the roof with the bean bag couches. Yeah. - I wonder what I'm saying. You hear it, right? In these big tech companies where everybody has a fake title or whatever, but they're just chilling. And I was like, wow, I can't believe it. And it's super funny in hindsight, because Josh now leads Gemini. So he definitely wasn't getting fired, right? He was definitely doing something else. He was like, pretty important. But I messaged him and I was like, what are you doing? What is that thing that you are working on? That has nobody on it? And he was like, oh, let me tell you what it is. And he tells me it's AI. And this is in 2022, right? Pre-Chat GPT, even pre-Lambda, as far as like, you know, what the public consciousness was aware of. And I remember thinking AI, it's just like a word we've thrown it out for years, but it doesn't mean anything, right? Especially like for me, where I was like, AI means like Star Trek, right? It's like an until it's up like Star Trek quality, like don't call me. Like I really have no interest whatsoever. But he was like, no, it's actually pretty good. So he did the initial demos of Lambda. He showed me we had like some pretty rudimentary apps inside of Google. And I was like, wow, I don't really know what this is, but it seems really interesting. And so I studied really hard like before I even got the job. And by studying, I mean, I spent like two days like reading as much as I could. And that was like the extent of it. But then I pinged Josh and I was like, whatever it is I'm in, right? And I was like, hire me. I was like, I'm the guy. Like whatever it is, you think you're going to build with this, it's me. And he's crazy. He really did hire me. And so I was the first PM he hired into labs and launched AI Test Kitchen, launched notebook LM, previously known as Project Tailwind. But yeah, it just had just like the craziest time over the last three years like building cool shit. How many things that Google have been called labs over the last 20 years? That's my question. Well, it's going to be like at least a dozen. It's like we're introducing a new labs division within the existing labs division. I mean, it's such a popular word. And it's such a cool word, right? Because a lab just sort of inspires this like scientific, exploratory juice where you're like, I get to do fun shit, I work in a lab. And I think what's really cool is maybe not so cool. When we started Google Labs, we discovered there was previously a Google Labs already that had been started and killed. And so there was a little bit of confusion where they were like, oh, is it the same thing? And I'm like, I don't even know what the old thing was, right? And then when the new Google Labs got started, everybody at Google wanted to have a labs too. There was like search labs, photos labs, YouTube labs. And then it was like, well, what is the difference between all the labs? And I honestly think like if you paused for a second to think about the answer, like you would fall down a rabbit hole so deep that you would become unproductive. And for sure, like I saw people sort of like thinking about this philosophical problem because Google gives you the space to think about whatever you want. And I was like, I am not interested in this sort of problem whatsoever. And so I just did not participate in that convo as much as I could. I'm so curious about the origin of notebook LM and how you guys decided to focus on that as a product. It was one of the rare consumer viral breakout hit products from zero to one that Google has done in a long time. And I'd love to know like, how did you guys come up with it? And then what was it like experiencing that traction that happened so fast? - Thank you for saying that it happened so fast, but it had actually been around for like two and a half years before it blew up. And so we were really like grinding in the darkness for a long time. You know, not that dark, but it was like relatively unknown. As far as the origin of it, I mean, I think one of the things that's most magical about notebook LM is that we started the project before chat GPT. And so the use cases were not actually that obvious, but I think there was sort of a really interesting prevailing thought that we had, which was, look, there's probably something interesting you could do with a chatbot that you could just talk to about anything, right? And that's sort of like the varietal that we have chat GPT, Gemini, Claude, et cetera today. And that's how a lot of them started. But then there's the second group of thinking or type of thinking, which is what I think we fell into, which was, no, I actually don't want to talk about arbitrary random things. I want to talk about a collection of things that I really care about for some reason or another. And this sounded really vague in the beginning, but I think I told Ellis this, the reason why it was so compelling to me was because I had done this crazy thing where, you know, if you remember, I had joined Google and I didn't have a college degree and I had this like chip on my shoulder. I decided now that I had Google money, finally I was going to go to college, right? I was like, there's a couple ways to solve this chip on my shoulder one way is I can certainly just get my degree so that I can't be found out. And so I went back to college. And so by the time, you know, we had started, no book at all, this particular project, I was like, what seems like, what these LLMs are good at, are words. And you know what has a lot of words in it, are textbooks and slides and like all of these class notes. And what I would really, really like is to create a container of all of this stuff. And I just want to talk to it. And at the time when we were building it, it was just not possible. It was super brittle, it was really hard. But I was like, we're at Google. Like it's only going to get better. And so I was betting on the future. We built the product with this specific vision in mind, which is actually kind of funny because it was like kind of hard in the beginning. It convinced people that this was an interesting thing to work on, just like from a product perspective. But it was true that as a technology got better and better and better, my grades got higher and higher. No, I'm just kidding. I mean that jokingly, but it was true. It did actually start to perform better and better as the context window's got better, the model got better. There's just a lot that eventually by the time it blew up with audio overviews, the app itself was pretty robust. How is the reception within Google for a runaway PR success like that? Oh my gosh, I mean, I think it's interesting because I think about where Google was when this had happened. I think it felt a little bit like it's a giant company, but it felt like we were on our back foot somehow, right? Like you could read pretty much anywhere and people were just like, oh, Google got beat, right? They invented the transformer, but so what? And it was just like really negative. And I think like working at Google, it felt really weird because you were this trillion dollar company, but you felt somehow like a product underdog, right? It was like people had largely sort of written us off as not being an interesting product place. And I just didn't buy it. I was like, you know, something is going to happen soon, right? And if I had to say this, like, we're going to do something interesting soon. And I would say that there was like this sort of frenzy in between when chat GPT happened and when, you know, notebook LM blew up, there was like this frenzy in the middle of just like, we have to win, right? There is like an energy of like, we have to do something, but it was a little chaotic because everybody was just trying stuff. And then there's like layers of politics on top of it. There's a whole cast of characters that are constantly like moving things around. And like, for me, there's the notebook LM team was tiny. Like, my whole thing was like, I just need to insulate this like core group of people and keep them focused, right? And it's something, and I just believe like something interesting will happen. If you do something for long enough, something interesting will happen. And I was like, it's just my job to just like shield this team and just keep going. And I think when notebook LM did blow up, the thing that was most surprising was how I felt like the narrative changed. And it was really, really to me, one of like the most culturally like shocking things where I felt like there was the narrative of like, Googles, like this like dumb product organization, whatever they can't build new things. It felt really prevalent to, wow, they're back, they're doing cool things, turns out they can build new things. And I think like it started to really pick up, like in terms of like the momentum, like AI studio, right? Especially like with Logan, like tweeting so much. It's just like, wow, they're actually like cool people, nano banana, jewels, like look at all this stuff that they're able to ship really quickly. And so I feel like if I had to sort of think about the difference between these two times where Google was not cool, Google becoming cool, there was like a very clear moment there where I'm like, oh, we helped kickstart that movement. You made Google cool. Put that on your business card. Can't wait. Can't wait to put that on my LinkedIn. I feel like Google being cool oscillates maybe at like an increasing speed these days. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think like the meme, right? Is it like everybody just takes turns. It's like, it's opening eye today. It's Google tomorrow. It's anthropic the next day. Grok even like I don't wait. So also you're telling me that 20% times actually real. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not really 20%. I think that's the most ridiculous thing about it because at the time I was leading AI Test Kitchen and this was so funny. Like I can't believe like Josh tricked me into this. He was like, and while you're working on AI Test Kitchen, he's like while you build a new business for Google. And I'm like, wow, sounds great. Sounds like a cool opportunity, right? I'm going to go build something. But it was very hard because shipping AI Test Kitchen was hard. And then you had to think about this like totally new thing on the side with the same team that you had. And so we really did have to pull volunteers from like literally like every corner of the earth that you could find inside of Google that you, you know, a person that you could get jazzed about this like really foreign concept of like upload a document and talk to it, especially because like in the beginning, there were not a lot of documents you could upload. But yeah, I mean, we were able to pull through and I think like to to the credit of I think leadership at Google, we did all of these demos and they're like, all right, keep going. Seems weird. Seems good. Keep going. And yeah, we did. It is a testament. I feel like you could spend your your free time on working toward your next performance review or building the new or building the new revenue stream for Google. And I think we know which one most people choose. Well, I'll be very honest that I did not ever write my performance reviews. I think like there was a very clear period in time where I just completely stopped. I was like, you know, I really do not like doing this. And I'm only committed to doing things that I like. And so I stopped doing it. There are tens of thousands of big tech employees who agree with you. And my manager, like there was like one cycle where she was like, you are so overdue on like your performance review. She like, how about I write it? I was like, smashing idea. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I think you have another winning product there, Reza. Oh, yeah. I for performance reviews. Yeah, this episode is brought to you by Accenture. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result, less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most learn more at Accenture.com/spotify. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome that's new. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability very 16 plus. So you're writing high, you've made Google cool, and then you decide to leave and do a startup. Is that what happened? Yes. Yes, I actually, I think it was so unbelievable to many people that they thought I was on well. And I didn't realize it until later that people thought I might have not been okay, but they, you know, I'll never forget, when I quit, Josh was like, hey, he's like, maybe you need a break. He's like, maybe you just need a vacation. Maybe you're tired. That was like, Josh, what are you talking about? I was like, this is the biggest moment in my life. I'm like, taking this thing that I worked so hard for and I am leaving it behind because I see the promise of something else outside. I was like, I've never thought clearer in my life. And it was actually quite emotional for me, you know, because of like what I shared earlier, which was I didn't come from, you know, a particularly wealthy background that I immigrated to the States. I didn't get to go to college and I found myself at Google making more than I ever had in my life. And I was just suddenly ready to walk away from it. And so there was actually one night, I woke up, it was like a 4 a.m., and I just burst into tears. It was just like crying, right? And this was before I quit. I was about to quit. And I was crying. And my husband was just so startled. He was like, are you okay? There's something hurt, new to go to the hospital. And I was like, I'm so like emotional about this moment because I realized that my dream was to go start a company. And I was like, I have never felt that the right time was now more than ever. But I also have never felt so poor in my life. I was like, it's just so, it's so crazy that I like, I'm imagining walking away from this thing that I built for me and my family. And my husband was looking at me. He's just like, listen to this. He's like, listen. He's like, you know, they're going to try to give you like money to stay, right? But he's like, how much do you think you're worth? How much are your ideas worth? And I was like, what? He's like, what's the number? He's like, how much is your idea worth? I was like, I don't know. He's like, okay, is it $10 million? He's like, is it $100 million? And I'm like, what are you asking me? I'm like, bawling my eyes out. You're asking me a number. And he like grabs me. He's like, listen, girl. He's like, you are not a $10 million girl. You're not even a $100 million girl. He's like, you're a $1 billion idea girl. And he's like, you go out there. You do it. And he's like, and I got you. And I'm like, what? Where do you get this? I like, four in the morning. But it was to me, like, just one of the most like impactful moments of my life where I was like, here I am, you know, thinking about it this way. And I live with this person who sees me in this like totally different way. And he was like, you go get it. He's like, you go quit your job. He's like, don't go into this afraid. And I was like, man, wow. Yeah. I think he's coming on the show next. He's a very, he's a very private, like, very introverted guy. That's why like, the pep talk came out of nowhere. It sounds like the goat to me. Yeah. It's really good. I so identify that with that as someone who just left the best job I'd ever had to start my own thing and to start my own company. And Ellis has started his own company. And yeah, I feel like a lot of people can identify with that roller coaster. You just to describe it. Yeah. Congrats to all. Yeah. But you have to, you have to have something that you're working towards. You have to have something that is so motivating for you to leave that safety net, right? And so I'm curious like, what was that besides like, I want to start a company, what was the like product insight or the thing that you were like, this has to exist. So I think it's crazy because the idea that we left with is not even the idea that we built. And I tell this to everybody, which is, look, you know, especially if you're coming out of a large company or you're working like a role, the idea that you have is going to change. And I think the thing you have to have faith in is that you are going to be able to navigate it. Like don't bet on your idea, but bet on yourself, right? Bet on your ability to navigate whatever the thing is that you're doing. And that has proven true for us. But that specific idea that we actually quit with, it feels funny to describe it now. But I remember at the time I was like, you know, why somebody needs to give these LLMs computers so that they can actually do interesting things. And I was like, why don't we build a platform to basically spin up a bunch of LLMs? or agents, as we call them now, give them computers, give them autonomy, give them access to slack and messages and phone, and have them go do interesting things on your behalf, and they just talk with you, just like regular people do. And that was actually the, that was the idea that we quit with, and then when we quit, we were like, "Wait a second, you know, let's take three days, just study what's out there, take a beat, be like real human beings, and see what is it that we want to build." And so the idea morphed many, many times before we got to where we are today. That's something every VC loves to hear, right? The founders that are just kind of obsessed with a specific problem space, and they're going to get there somehow, some way. I guess for you, it's like Bindicids childhood. Yeah. After this, they're like, "Yeah, I'm putting money on that, girl." I mean, I, I have loved like technology since I was like, the beginning of time, and I honestly, like I remember building computers with my dad, like even though we didn't have much money, my dad was like, we could buy parts and we could like build our own computer. And I've just like been that way my whole life, and I think it's so funny, there is a publication wrote to me, they were like, "Hey, you know, congrats on your fundraise. Do you want us to publish the deck that you used to raise money?" Because like, that's like a thing we do, we share with people how, you know, people are raising money these days, and I had to write back, and I was like, there was no deck. I didn't have a deck. Like I just went, I met with VCs, and I was like, I did have a moment where I was like, should I have one? But it was very similar to like how I felt when I was at Google where I was like, "Why could do it the way that I think other people do it?" Or I could just do it the way that I think I want to do it. And the way that I just wanted to do it was I wanted to show up and be like, "Look, here I am. I have an idea. The idea could be kind of cool." But the thing that's actually really cool is it's me and a group of people that I know can build something interesting. So it's like, you can bet on the people or you can bet on the idea, right? Which kind of person are you? Let's shift gears to Hux, where we are today. How would you describe what it is? Well, well, today I would describe it as a personalized audio app that creates podcasts or radio stations based on the things you care about. It makes content from your emails, your calendar, your interests, and pretty much just any query that you type in. I've been using it for the last several days and I've been pretty impressed. I feel like it's doing things on like a number of different levels. It's one thing to get like the voice and cadence, right? It's another to like create a nice program of your day. Morning, Alice, sliding in just before that Hux session kicks off. Looks like today's paste, but pretty focused. Yeah, that back-to-back access recording block is coming up fast. We'll keep this tight so you can get prepped without scrambled. Some major waves in AI to get to later. Think huge chip deals and a big push on new developer tools. Also, music charts are shaken up again. If you need a breather from the tech headlines. But I feel like for most people, this is actually going to be their first experience with like Agen, take AI, searching for things for them. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. No, that's totally right. I think we were joking about this the other day where we were like, you know, the funny part about building something that works really well and is really interesting and is magical for folks is that on the surface, it has to be so simple, right? Like where you don't have any cognitive load about what the thing is. For the record, I don't think we're completely there yet, but we try our best to make it really simple. It's just like make a podcast or a radio station about anything. But underneath it, it is very technically complex to create a low to no latency audio platform about anything. And the promise is that, you know, you care about all these things, but maybe you care to listen to the topic. So something about the topic multiple times a day, right? So it's like, how do you at multiple times of the day tell the user, hey, something has changed. Like let's say like open AI, right? You could go days where there's like not that much interesting news about them. But then one day there's like a very interesting news story, whether it's like Sora coming out or Dev Day happening, right? And suddenly there's a bunch of things you might want to listen to. So I think being able to enable this kind of like, I know this person is interested in open AI. I'm going to try to make sure I understand what do they know so far. How do I give them the most recent thing? How do I make it so that that content is actually personalized to their context? Like that stuff is pretty hard. And there's like a lot of complexity under the hood that goes into it. But I think that when you get it right, it's pretty magical where I was creating a podcast about the Mariners, which is like really funny because I'm not super into sports, but I'm like really into the Mariners. And it somehow knows this about me. So it was just like going through like the different sort of like results of like, okay, here's like what happened with the game, here's like the record. Okay, but let me explain why this is important. And it was pretty cool. I was like, oh, it's not like your typical sports broadcast. There's something about radio. I feel like I saw an infographic the other day that was looking at like the time spent for audio per day. And like a solid third of it is still like AMFM radio. And I think in this moment where everybody is constantly pulling things on demand, like it's pretty damn nice to have someone just like read to you. Like I'm signed up to the LA and PR KCRW. And it's just like, here's five news stories from today. And I'm like, wait, not a million that I feel guilty about not reading, but just five, please. I think that's the that's the interesting part of like what the like this moment we're in, which is I think about this all the time where we've never had this choice before, right? Where I'm like, Hey, Devdale, let's just take them. I really care about what happened there. I do not want to listen to an hour and a half keynote, right? It's like, maybe I would on a different day. But today, I need the five minute rundown. But then maybe there's a different topic that I actually care a lot about, which is like, I want to know about like the history of Star Trek. Like how like what was Jean Roddenberry thinking? Like I have actually, I have no idea, right? So maybe I want to listen to like a 40 minute thing about that. But I think like the flexibility of a couple of different things, which is like, how long I want to listen for what the specific topics are, what the angle even is, how is this even relevant to me? Like I think those are the things that are possible today with AI that was like not really scalable or possible in like the pre AI times. And so I think like there's like this very interesting question of one, do people care, right? Is this actually like an interesting problem? And I think the second question of like, what are the correct knobs to give to people? Because it's like, you don't want to build a thing that has like a thousand buttons, right? And someone's always fiddling it. I think you could probably land on this like middle path where it's like, it's just magical for an 85% of people. And the 5% that want to fiddle like we have the correct controls. I really appreciated how simple the interface was. I'm still getting my head around the idea of AI podcast AI radio. I think because I'm such a podcast power user and I'm drowning in human created podcasts that I need to listen to, it feels like listening to an AI podcast feels just strange to me. But I will say that the daily overview thing was, DevDay was a perfect example or recording this the day after the open AI DevDay. And I was, I was there and like I had a packed calendar. It was unusual for me. And I was traveling that day. And I had like, I was doing a day trip up from L.A. And I was seeking a view actually in this conversation a lot at DevDay because I went to this Q&A with with Sam Altman after the keynote. And he was talking about how he thinks that AI will be primarily used through voice. And he's like so into voice as the main input for AI. And I think that probably has to do with the devices he's working on, which Johnny I have. And obviously, Cheshire PT has advanced voice mode and all that. But it does feel like voice is a really unique way and powerful way to interact with this stuff. I agree. I think that that's the next horizon for us. And I actually think that the initial step is I think that it's easy for people who have this kind of like internal monologue to make the leap. Right? Like if you already have an internal monologue, I think it's easy for you to imagine that you could have like an AI voice assistant. Like you watch the movie her and you're like, for sure, right? I get it. But then I think for most people, the movie her is just a movie. It's just an interesting sci-fi thing because I think a lot of people don't think about the world as this like interactive interface for technology, right? I get super nerdy. I think most people just live live and that's it. And I think that the key to this is is actually passive content that you make interactive. And I think that's the bet we're making with Hux, which is how can I give the user so much value with like nothing like they don't have to do anything, right? And so like when you use Hux, like you open the app and you just press play, right? You don't have to ask a question, you don't have to start a chat, you don't even have to say here's how I'm feeling today. And as much as possible, we try to constrain the amount of things that there are to press on the screen at any given time for this reason, because I think that this is like the next page of AI or technology in general, which is like don't make it hard for the user to get something useful out of it. And I think if you lay that foundation down really, really well, you unlock the next step, which is you delight them with interactivity, right? And you sort of teach the user that like, hey, you know what the world can be this like interactive, like technological interface where you're listening to something interesting, maybe you have a question, right? We can't do that today, we can't interrupt Bye! podcasts today, we can't interrupt radio stations, but what if you could, right? And maybe it actually says something like, hey, Ellis, this is very interesting for you. Like this specific thing and you're like, why would it say that? So I think like there's like an opportunity to build passive content that invites the user to participate in this like totally novel next generation behavior. As a professional podcaster for a long time, I would have loved to have been able to go back and interrupt myself listening back to myself and be like, stop standing, um, stop doing filler words. I'd love to go back and redo my pods. If you can invent that, I'll pay you a lot of money. I mean, an arm remover is pretty easy. A lot of people in tech talk about like, what is the thorough put of the different modalities? And you're like, what are you talking about? And then they're like, well, what's the IO potential of visual versus video versus audio? And it's like, dude, like, it's not about that. It's just about the time spent, yeah, like parts of your day, like, and that's, I think, why you're seeing. I mean, what, what is it? Like three to four hours per day of audio time spent, like up there with video time spent. I feel like for that same reason, and it's not that it's like, oh, the death of reading or this or that. I mean, it's just looking at the opportunities and creating experiences for them. Yeah. I mean, I think largely, you know, when we started this particular incarnation of the app, one of the things I was talking to the team about is like, it's kind of crazy that when you build anything, you have to compete for the user's eyeballs. It's like, it's like a weird business to be in, right? I am trying to steal your attention from something else that you are doing. And audio is really special in the sense that you can participate in it when you're doing something else. Maybe you're taking a walk. Maybe you're writing your bike. Maybe you're working out. Maybe you're doing your chores. And actually, like, a lot of our users, whenever they send us feedback, they tell us the thing they're doing. And it's like this really magical, organic thing where someone will be like, I was walking my dog when Hux did this or I was driving to work when Hux did this and it's like kind of cute where I'm like, we're just people, we're just people doing stuff. And if we sort of think about this, it's like, hey, what's your place in a person's life? And it's like, how can you make that place really good? That's like our singular motivation is like, hey, if you listen to it for like 15 minutes during your commute, how do you make it like a pretty good 15 minutes where you were like, wow, I'm glad that I did that. And I think that's why this particular race or this particular game of like audio is actually like a really meaningful one where you're like, how creating meaningful and interesting audio content is not that easy. But it's like a pretty, it's a pretty special place. Yeah. If you unlock it, it's pretty good. And I think about this, like I listen to podcasts so a lot, I listen to music a lot, I listen to Hux a lot. And I feel good every time I do these things, I feel pretty good. It seems like in some ways, while we might talk about it as radio or podcasts or whatnot, it seems like you're kind of going to be at the center of this like holy grail moment of AI that pulls things for you and gives them to you whether it's audio or feed. And you tweeted the other day that opening AI's new pulse feature has some striking similarities to Hux. Can you tell us about that? I feel like they cloned your old website as opposed to your new website. But yeah, yeah, it was interesting. I think because you know, when I first saw it, I saw the video first and I was like, oh my gosh, it's like the old website. But then I kept poking around and I was like, some things were really similar, like a framing of, you know, it's all about you versus like it's all. It's all you. It's like, okay, it's like super close. We looked at sort of like, you know, no scrolling, listen, and it's kind of like personalized feed instead, proactive versus like doom scrolling. There was just like multiple things that made me think, okay, right? If it was like one design element, like that's, that's okay. That's cool. But I think because it was so close, it kind of felt like, well, you know, it's tough, right? Like I don't work at Google anymore. Like I'm the little guy and OpenAI is this behemoth who is basically taken like our same message and they're saying, this is the future. So on one hand, I was like, really jazzed and I was like, wow, it was like really cool. Like we launched it before they did and they said the same thing and it seems like many people are excited about it. So in general, it's like very cool validation for the space and the direction we're in. All the other hand, it's super scary. It's like, oh man, like they really want to take them on. But I think in practical terms, this happened all the time when we were working on a book LM2. I think in practical terms, I think you see a lot of this in emerging products and product ideas and product paradigms, which is like, maybe you don't do it on purpose, right? Like you don't literally look at a website and you like copy it, maybe you don't. But maybe you're influenced by it down the road, right? And it comes out and you're writing, it comes out in your design and then it starts to look really similar because everybody is kind of like trying to find inspiration for something that doesn't exist. What I think is true though is that what differentiates products is basically how long you go at the problem for and how differentiated your insights are. And I think that's kind of a weird thing to say, but I said it all the time when we were on notebook, which is like, these things will happen where people will crop up. They will do the same thing you are doing, but the thing that you have to remember is that even though it's interesting to look at what they are doing, it's what you are doing that actually makes the difference, right? Like for your life, for your customer's lives. And the truth is that you just have to, you just have to keep going, you have to keep going at it. I mean, I think even in the two weeks since we've launched, I think we have learned so much about what users want and what the user experience is that I'm just like, wow, like that makes me feel good about the direction we're going and I don't particularly feel the need to stop just because, you know, we might be doing something similar to open AI. I asked Sam Altman at the DevDeq and I yesterday about Pulse and he said it was his favorite feature. And for those who don't know, it's gated right now to be 200 a month pro tier of ChatGPT. But it's the first time that ChatGPT will use your context to suggest things to you and push things to you like, like, like, like more of an assistant. And I think they see it as a huge opportunity to make ChatGPT less insurmountable, less overwhelming to people who don't know how to prompt it, right? Because that's the thing with AI right now is to really take advantage of it. You have to know how to extract from it. But there's something magical when it can just bring things to you and learn from you. And I think that's like what you're doing with Hux and open AI seemed very, very excited in that direction. So it's really interesting and you can monetize it in a lot of interesting ways. Like I'm curious, like, how you think about that? Is it for a product like this? Do you just do subscriptions or do you think that at a certain scale there's an opportunity to do like really good high touch advertising in an interface like this? I think that's probably what Open AI will do actually for Pulse, it's kind of what they were hinting. And I'm curious to hear how you feel about that. I mean, I think we're really, really, really still, but I'll tell you like my early thoughts on it, which is I think that in order to keep most products free, like you have to do advertising, I think that's just kind of how these types of products work, but, you know, the stage we're in is we're just trying to validate is this interesting that people do they want this? Is it useful? I think when we get to the part about monetization, I think those are the only two avenues, which is like you could do a subscription, you could do ads, you could do both. But the way I think about ads is if you have a system that actually knows you uniquely well, I think you could solve a really important problem for both advertisers and people, which is I don't really want ads for things that I don't want to buy. And I know that advertisers don't want to spend their money showing ads to people who aren't going to do anything about it either. And I think about this sort of like two-sided problem where it's like, okay, let's say you're like blue bottle and you want to advertise, right? I think it's not terribly difficult with how Hux has been built to just know like, okay, this person is going to be in Palo Alto, they have a meeting on University Ave, right? This person drinks a lot of cold brew because I see their receipts all the time. It's not crazy to be like Ryza, you have a meeting, blah, blah, blah, here's an ad, right? And just like, this closes to the user and just say like, it's an ad, blue bottles right there, they have cold brew, they have like a single origin blend, they have a multi origin blend. It costs this much, but here's a 25% coupon. And here's the bathroom code. And here's the bathroom code, which we pulled from Yelp. So I think there's something interesting to be done, I think we're kind of far away from doing it. But yeah, I mean, lots of things to think about there. How soon is the quality of the voice going to be indistinguishable from humans, do you think? I mean, I think you see these like studies that come out and they're like, oh, voice AI is not distinguishable from humans, right? Most people can't tell already. And so I see those studies and I think about it and I'm like, well, I wonder what those contexts are, you know, whether it's like customer support or maybe when you make reservations or anything, you call for things like that. But I think when you're producing long format content, I think that there's like an interesting thing that happens, which is you can probably tell it's not a human, but the quality is good enough where it probably doesn't bother you anymore. So I think it's probably not so much that, you know, you can't tell it's person versus not a person, but I think it comes down to like, is it tolerable enough for this particular media that you're consuming? And that's really what we measure, which is like a lot of people are put off by AI voices because it's like really weird. It's like still very like dystopian to think about. There's like things pretending to be people, but I try to think about it from a perspective of like human voices have a particular quality to it where we can listen to them, right? Like it, like mentally we're just like, yeah, I listen to whatever this person is saying. And I'm okay with it, whereas like my kids call them clankers, right? They're like, I'm not listening, they actually say this all the time. They're like, I'm not listening to a clanker. I'm like, whoa, that's super funny. It's like, how, how do we get to, uh, clankers in this house, huh? My kids joke about it all the time. They're like, Mom, do you think like in 10 years, I'm going to be like introducing you to my clanker boyfriend and you're like, oh, Zoe, why'd you date a clanker? You know, um, but I think, I think that's the question, which is like, are AI voices good enough to be listened to? Yeah, I mean, none of the AI voices are going to be as good as the 93 one Jack FM voice here in Los Angeles. Have you heard this guy? Nope. No, he's incredible. He's like, we play what we want, Jack FM. Yeah. Yeah. Highly recommend. We've been dancing around this rise, but, uh, behind all this is the fear I have that you're going to put us out of a job, Alison, and so I'd like to know your advice for human podcasters, measly human podcasters in this moment, because it is kind of crazy when you see how things are progressing and it's like, well, as someone can just get a hyper personalized podcast on any topic, it's like, what, where do I fit into that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think this is like a serious question. And it's a serious question that I asked when we worked on notebook LM. And I'll say that like my, my perspective on this hasn't changed too much. Like it's, it's changed a little bit, but with notebook, one of the things we discovered is that people weren't trying to replace existing content, but they were just creating content that didn't exist. And it was really kind of funny to be like, people were creating podcasts out of their resumes, or they were creating podcasts out of like, you know, personally, I got this like hundred slide deck from like the workspace folks when I was at Google and I was like, there's just no way I'm going to read the thing, right? They think there's just like no chance, right? And there's no way that Ellis and Alex are going to make a podcast about this hundred slide workspace deck, but now I have the ability to turn it into one. And so I think like largely that is still true. People want content that just doesn't exist and is not feasibly going to be made. But I think one thing that is true that has changed, you know, since we launched notebook LM is, I think it's kind of like the eyeballs perspective, which is you are just competing for a limited amount of space in a user's day. And I think that's very real. And we think about hawks as like something you add to your routine versus something that displaces something in your routine, but that's like overly optimistic. You know, of course, it's like replacing something, especially if you're already like a listener. And so we actually ask people all the time, we're like, what did you replace with hawks? What were you doing? And I think for the most part, many people actually don't say that they were listening to something else. And this to me is like very interesting, which indicates either we are reaching a subset of people that were not podcast listeners to begin with or like music listeners. But I think we'll probably see the results of this change over time. And so my sort of TLDR on here is that for the first time, I think we have technology that competes with like the audio space. I think we're going to discover how that changes. Personally, I still listen to the same amount of like podcasts that I do. And just listen to hawks is like a totally different time. All right. We're safe for now, Alice. Yeah, I feel like, I mean, this is kind of my broader take on like AI's intersection with news and whatnot. I think it's like, if you're like a link blog or a link newsletter that aggregates a very, I don't know, predictable subset of tech news, like, yeah, I mean, that's also just not that differentiated or interesting, even like of a skill set. You know, meanwhile, if you are bringing in all elements of your experience, opinion, expression, even if you're an artist, like that's the thing that AI really can't do. And so I feel like it's just pushing us in that direction. We need to think about how to help you self actualize into the most differentiated version of yourself, Alex. I think that that's how we ensure your future is safe. Yeah. This is going to be an important process we'll do together on the show. What was a product you tried lately that blew your mind? Oh, I really like Sora. I really like the Sora. And I was so surprised because I am not a video consumer number one. Like I don't even use TikTok, which is embarrassing, but I am also definitely not a video creator, but I was really impressed with the novelty of the cameo feature. And the thing that was so startling to me was that I wanted to see myself in the videos, which I have never had any such desire to do. Yeah. But the very first one I made was me in Arrakis, like in Dune, with like a sandworm. And I was like, that is so goofy. It is so cool. And it was delightful. And I probably used it for 24 hours and I didn't use it again. But I think for the 24 hours that I did, it was quite magical. Rise up. We really have enjoyed having this combo with you and we really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. This has been really fun. Thanks for asking me about my favorite Star Trek Captain. To be continued, we'll do favorite species of aliens next round. Right. Species A472 is my all-time favorite. Cardassians for sure. Well, that was a fun chat. And Alex, you now have a personal podcast to listen to as you scoop your dog's poop every day. Is that literally the only free time you have left that has been unmatched? Unmonetized by some company. Pretty much. That's my Hux time. We're new here. So please follow, like, subscribe. You know what to do on all your favorite platforms of choice at AccessPod, including YouTube, where we have the full video of the show. And if you liked this episode, please leave us a five-star review or thumbs up and share it with a friend. You can find Alex's well-sourced newsletter at sources.news/sources. Now, really, it's just sources.news. And you can find me @hamberger on Twitter and @meaning.com. Our producers are Shiraz, Dume, and Rishi Rajagopalan. We will see you next week. Bye! To a state, surrounded by nature, that's nice. Go on, book it. It's easy. Booking.com. Booking. Yeah. Fall is the perfect time to refresh and reorganize your space. At the Home Depot, find power tools and tool sets starting at $50 to help tackle DIY projects, home updates, and more, whether you're drilling brackets to support new shelving, or sharpening your head trimmer blade with an angle grinder. The Home Depot has the tools you need to check projects off your list, shop Labor Day Savings at the Home Depot, and gear up for fall projects with the right tools to keep your projects moving.