Building Resilient Teams with Brandon Walker

Leadership isn't just about strategy. It's about connection. And that's what we explore here on the Tactical Empathy podcast. I also explore it every week in my newsletter, The E in the Room. With more than a thousand subscribers already learning how to communicate with confidence and lead with empathy, this is your chance to join in. Head on over to www.enthorp.ca/resources Right now and download a series of free leadership tools and get the newsletter delivered to your inbox. The conversation doesn't end here on the podcast, so make sure you are a part of it. Hey everyone, welcome back to Tactical Empathy. Today I have my past client, Brandon Walker, on the podcast. He's got over 20 years of experience in the engineering world and we worked together a few years ago. I'm sure he'll refresh my memory on that as we get into this episode. And I invited him back to just talk a little bit about our work together, where he's at now kind of catch up with him. And just to do it a little bit of a check-in to see how his leadership has evolved and how he uses this tool of empathy in his practice of leadership today. So I'm really excited for this conversation. Please help me welcome Brandon to the show. Hey Brandon, welcome to the show. It's great to see you again. Yeah, great to see you, Aaron. I know that we have spent a lot of time together, but our guests don't know who you are. So I'd love for you to just take a minute and introduce yourself in whatever way feels authentic in this moment today. So yeah, whatever you would like to share with us. Sure thing. Yeah, brief bio. So my name is Brandon Walker. I'm currently the technical service program manager for a company called Michael Henney. It's an engineering environmental surveying company and many more things in Western Canada. I'm also their division manager for water resources and their program manager for an equity initiative called be more than a bystander. So I've got three different hats there that I all enjoy and yeah, I'll allow me to show up in leadership in slightly different ways. Prior to that, I've worked as a professional engineer in Western Canada for about 15 years, I guess, before I joined Michael Henney. And I'm just a school at UBC for civil and environmental engineering. For that, I was serving in the US military and their nuclear propulsion program and serving on nuclear power submarines. So really learned my leadership chops through them largely in terms of what it means to work in a tight space and really rely on one another under periods of intense stress, but also, you know, the real potential of, you know, building those strong bonds and also having very clear processes and everybody knowing. Exactly what they need to do at any given time, right clear handovers of roles and responsibilities. Yeah, so I've carried a lot of that with me, I would say into my leadership journey. Yeah, it's fascinating. I think I might have forgotten about your US military experience prior to this conversation and which kind of, you know, feeds into. I'd love for you to just talk a little bit about what brought us together and what challenges you were looking to kind of overcome or understand, you know, sometimes it's understanding not overcoming, but yeah, what brought us to our work together from your. Let's say that in my case, it was definitely understanding more than overcoming, I think, and so I was working for another consulting firm, a big multinational outfit, good company by a lot of measures, but it really wasn't a good fit for me. So a much more relational person. Yeah, come from a small town and then that military experiencing I was experiencing. So I was mentioning before was the, you know, very small tightly knit community. And so being a part of something that was headquartered half a world away. I just wasn't, wasn't working and I came to you, I think initially, hoping for strength and advice for how to overcome, you know, my lack of, of passion and will that I was experiencing to excel in that role. I think what I came away with instead was just a lot more clarity in terms of what it is that I really have to offer intuition, my heart centered leadership, my community building drive, all those types of things and really honoring that and that let me to start start looking for my next role, right, which is when I landed at my colony. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I think sometimes, you know, we think the challenge is one thing and then it, it, it slowly reveals itself to be something else. So I, I'd love for you to share, you know, what that was like that discovery that that understanding that I'm covering. And I think that's as you navigated that, you know, because you came in with a pretty clear help me fit in here and help me, you know, find my, my path here. And we walked away with something very different. Yes, that's right. Yeah, I think I came in with a bit of a narrow view of what success looked like. And it kind of comes from maybe the stereotypical thing you might see with a lot of professional services, maybe even especially engineers, I'm not sure. But where it's, it's all about climbing a ladder, it's all about, you know, how can I measure myself by, by revenue or by direct margin or by number of people who report to me, these types of things. And the lack of humanity of that just weighed on me pretty, pretty severely, but the story, the narrative was so strong that that's what success looked like that it was quite difficult for me to, to shake that. So I guess just having the confidence in myself to trust that there's, there's something else for me that success can be defined by was really helpful. Absolutely, I'm curious if there, because it's been a while since we've worked together. So I'm curious if there was, you know, a practice or a conversation or a particular moment that you remember that stuck out, like that, stuck out, yeah, stuck out to you. Like that sounded weird coming out. It really stands out to you from, from, from all of our conversations and from that time that, that I guess maybe was the catalyst to or, you know, the point at which you started to maybe change that narrative or, you know, see a bit broader of a perspective. Well, yeah, it's been five years since we worked together if you can believe it. Yeah. But I still do remember one of the practices that you helped lead me through, which was about understanding the different parts, like different characters within myself. We did this exercise that uncovered almost different energies within myself, right. This is a good way to put it, that each of their own kind of personalities, each got their own agendas, they would offer something. Sometimes they also bring risk, you know, or liability to the situation as well. But the point is to grow awareness of them, right, not to try to push anyone down or even to inflate one, right. That's all can be a bit misguided. Instead, it's really just to understand and love all of them, right. And then, and then just really trust that there's, there's an intelligence within me that's going to, you know, put the right one on stage at the right time and be, being nimble that way. Kind of adaptability, you know, of the different aspects of myself can't happen, you know, without that understanding and acceptance first. Yeah. So in my case, it was around intuition and around the process oriented like systems thinker, you know, what is really good at facilitating and designing ways for people to work better together. So there's a couple of different ones. There's also the playful aspect of myself, right. That's really good at drawing people out, helping us to see one another's humanity more deeply. So, yeah. Yeah. And if I remember correctly, I think some parts of those maybe we're starting to feel like they didn't have a place. And I think that was part of the work, right in understanding and building awareness. I'm curious how, if you, if you can recall how your team at the time responded, but also just like the subsequent teams, because now you're in a position where you're leading three different kind of bodies of work with presumably, you know, maybe not direct leadership experience like responsibilities, but definitely some leadership responsibilities and all of those. And how, however you notice teams in general responding to you now. Well, yeah, I mean, in terms of the leadership responsibilities and that, yeah, I have roughly about 20 direct reports now just for perspective and great relationships with all of them. They're fantastic people, right. And so their feedback to me has been. been that the kind of culture that we were able to create in the water resources division has been very supportive that they're able to be the kind of full well-rounded people, you know, that they aspire to be. I mean, nothing's perfect. You know, there's always, you know, you're coming to work to do a job. But I am very intentional more so than most of my colleagues in industry probably about creating a container where we can all be present and supportive of one another. I have monthly meetings as one example where we get together and we review kind of what's been going on for us in the last month. And part of that is on the weekly kind of workload meetings as you would see in any kind of firm. We set aside time for people to give kind of kudos for each other and say when I was somebody's gone above and beyond and then their names go in this little star chart, right? And then if those monthly meetings we draw out a name and we celebrate all those great things. And it's just a really simple thing, but it's really important to be able to celebrate and recognize all those small moments. We also have a time in those monthly get-togethers where we close our eyes for a few minutes and just reflect. Sometimes it's on a specific question or theme. Sometimes it's just more generally like what's going on for each individual person in that moment and the personal and professional eyes, whatever they feel drawn to share. And then we just go around the circle and kind of bring ourselves in to that moment in that way. And I just find that provides a lot of grounding and a lot of empathy for one another, right? So that whenever we do get that call at four o'clock, you know, there's dinner or whatever that, you know, we can kind of overcome some of the like, ruddery behind that and just say, okay, well, this is Aaron calling me and I know, I know what she's like and I actually do care about her as a person. So I'm going to step in. Yeah. And I don't know. At first I wasn't so sure about that process. I thought it was maybe a bit too, I don't know, too touchy-feely for an engineering firm. I was a bit shy about bringing it up for people, but it seems to be very, very well received. And in fact, one month, I remember I was just kind of rushing and I was like, well, we don't really need to do the close our eyes and meditate thing this time. We'll just get into it. And like three or four people around the table, you know, at the same time. So no way, we got to do that. Like this is something that we really like. And it's important. So like, okay, there we go. Yeah. I'm curious. How do new people to the team receive that? How long does it take for them to sort of like, oh, I, I really love it. I really like this. Oh, it's instant. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Yeah. It's instant. I can't tell if anybody have anything, but great feelings around it. Well, and I think that's one of those very small, very impactful things that is easy to overlook when we get busy, when there's deadlines, when the stress and pressure amounts as it always does in-- Of course. I mean, definitely in the engineering world, but I think in any world that is, you know, got deliverables and clients, it can be very easy to look past the human and to just say, let's, let's focus on the work. And yet it is that practice that allows those humans to do the work. That's absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that they brought you back to the practice that made this really great. But if somebody's listening and maybe sort of experiencing what you experienced, you know, maybe wrestling with their view of leadership or trying to fit all the parts of themselves into a definition of leadership that may not quite fit or feel correct, what would you suggest they do or what would you tell them? Yeah. Yeah. I get to know themselves, trust themselves. I think I don't think this was with you, but it was part of a different process. Maybe I went around and I spoke to a number of people who knew me really well and asked them for direct feedback on what it was about my leadership that really resonated with them, right? And it really worked and took that to heart, right? And really reflected on that. Yeah. And yeah, maybe not surprisingly, it wasn't how good I am at badgering people about their utilization ratio or their charge out rates, right? Like anybody can do that, right? And those are management skills that I don't want to belittle it. Of course, it's important to be a strong manager as well. But the feedback that I got from those little short interviews was help me to understand a lot more clearly what's unique about me, you know, that I can, those are the strengths that I can build on. Yeah, that's a really great practice. I'm curious, do you ever go back to those interviews now or the feedback that you got or any of those moments? How do you read all of that now? For sure. I do, and it's quite easy to do because I actually incorporated it into that kind of character map that I was talking about earlier that you helped me to build. Yeah, so I have different parts of my leadership that are those different characters and it, you know, it makes it pretty easy to identify with them and make sure that I'm nurturing each one of them, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that's so, it's interesting because you, from the coach's seat, you don't really know which practices are going to be impactful to people as you give them and it is kind of a try it on, see what works. And you don't, you kind of got to let go of what people will get out of it, you know, because it's their exploration, it's their curiosity that lands, but it's neat to sit back and have that reflected back because I can literally see you drawing a map of like these little characters and having them. And it's true because we all have different aspects of our self that have gotten us to where we are and sometimes we lean a little too much on one and not enough on another and I think overall life in general just feels a little bit more aligned and more authentic when we can lean into all parts of ourselves, you know, and like you said, nurture all aspects of our self. I'm curious if you have an updated definition of leadership from five years ago, what that is today. Wow. I think today if I had to say, yeah. Yeah, I think leadership is creating a culture of just what's the right word, like I want to say spirit filled without sounding too religious, but like full bodied service and celebration what a group of people is doing. Yeah, by building a container that can really hold the fullness of, you know, all the different people and all the different processes, the clients, all the ripples that come out of that, right? Yeah, I think I see myself as a leader who's authoritative, if that word resonates, not authoritarian, so we've clear in that distinction, yeah, but authoritative meaning people can count on me to be an authority in the realms that we operate in, right? So I think that's how I build trust as a leader is having that subject matter expertise in the, you know, not necessarily the highly technical aspects, but in what are going to be the impacts of the ripples, right? Like if we take this particular course as a business, what are going to be the likely outcomes of that, right? And I think that that allows people to kind of relax into the decisions that come out of that leadership. Yeah, the other word that comes to mind for me when you talk about that is vision, right? A little or direction or, you know, that just somebody is steering the ship, right? That somebody's got an eye on what's coming and going and, yes. Yeah, and I like the definition or the distinction, let's say, and discernment between authoritarian and, you know, to be an authority. And authoritative, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I like visionary too. And vision is so important, but I think for me personally, that paints a picture that's a bit too hands off. But there's definitely a place in the world for visionary leaders, you know, at the top of the area. And yeah, that's, that's my particular leadership is much more close to the ground, I guess, than that. Yeah. That's excellent. So how has, or how does maybe is the right question? How does empathy fit into your kind of leadership map, your practices? I know you talked a little bit about the one, you know, going around and really kind of doing the check-in with people, which I think is an excellent. And I think that's a great, an excellent practice to just sort of understand the whole human, but I'm curious just specifically around that one tool in the leadership toolbox, because I realize we all have many. Sure. Oh, empathy is critical. I think that's part of what drew me to your coaching practice in the first place, because you know, that focus of yours. But the usefulness, the very practical usefulness of empathy for me is being able to see things that aren't obvious, and hear things that aren't being said, like paying attention to the nonverbal cues, all that paying attention to when someone's silent in a meeting, and asking them to maybe share what's on their mind, noticing when someone's just not quite engaged, or maybe not lighting up in the way that they normally light up, and just trusting that there's probably a very good reason for that, and that people have all kinds of reasons for hiding, you know, and not being confrontational, right? Like just wanting to keep the peace. So empathy allows me to really reach across the fear that people might have to share what they're really feeling, what they're really concerned about, and create a welcoming space for them to let that be known, you know, because ten times out of ten, it's something that's really relevant to our work together, right? Yeah. Yeah, correct. I would agree with that. How do you, like what practices do you engage in, and how do you keep yourself able to have the capacity to do that work for others? Because it comes from a resource place, right, as a leader yourself. It, for sure, does, and that's so important. Yeah, throughout my career, I could probably draw a sign wave of like getting totally burned out, you know, and just feeling like, I got to do it all, and I've got to carry everything, and then getting better at those practices, and then, you know, have a more capacity, and then burning out again, because now I feel like I can take more on, right? And then, yeah. So for me, it's, you know, physical practices are top, right? Like, I've got to go for a run pretty much every day. I've got to, got to get a decent night's sleep, I've got to, you know, eat well, and keep hydrated, all those kinds of things. Yeah, I'm also very blessed to have a good spiritual community here where I live in South Surrey. So, yeah, being able to have just a minute, that Sabbath time, right? No matter what faith-traditioned folks are from, like having time set apart to really, like decompress and rest, and in my case, focus on creator, right? So, something that's bigger than myself is essential, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I love that. What are some of, I know I didn't prep you for this question, so I'm going off script here now. I'm curious what some of your early warning signs are that you do need to build some capacity or that you might be, you know, sort of downward, you know, running out of capacity headed towards not being able to hold it all for the team. And what are some of those signs? Because I think that's key for most of us. And most of us miss our early warning signs when we're starting out. Totally. I'd say two big ones. One is I just start physically getting just clumsy. I start running into walls basically. So I can notice that I'm not with it. Yeah, as long as my head is detached from my body, so there's a very somatic feedback that happens for me, which is helpful, right? Now that I know what that is, I'm like, okay. Now that you know what it is, but I can also see, you know, like, oh, I'm just tired or I had a bad night or whatever, and not really looking at this kind of vision. Yeah. No, it's different than just tired. It feels one way, but this is like head disconnected from body as the best way that I can describe it. Yeah. And let me see. The other one is actually that I will start taking on more things. It's a bizarre mechanism that I do. I don't know if this might be common for you or any of your listeners, but yeah, like my response to having too much on my plate is to put more on my plate. It's kind of ridiculous. I'll have been managing like 10 projects at once, and I'm doing performance reviews and raising two teenagers as well, and I volunteer extensively, and there's lots. And I'll decide, you know what? Now is a really great time for me to pick up learning complex mathematics on the side, because it's just kind of interesting and it's fun for me, right? It's the silliest thing. But I can't myself do it now, and I'm like, okay, that means that I'm overloaded and I need to step back. No, I think both of those are excellent, you know, warning signs, if you will. And I believe there's probably a lot of listeners that can see themselves in one or both of those. I do hear from, and one of mine is the taking on more. I'm overwhelmed. I'm going to have to do more. And I stop asking for what I need, and I stop actually delegating, and I stop actually holding people accountable, and I'm just like, okay, I'll take it on, I'll take it on, I'll do it all. And I hear that from a lot of clients and teams that I work with, that that's a fairly common early warning signal. And I think the physically, kind of the physical feedback is really powerful as well. And the common one I hear is often just like that, almost impatience and shortness and, you know, just not a lot of our capacity to kind of hold that empathy for others and to have the space, starts to diminish. Sure. But that can be secondary or down the road for people. Yeah, but that's an important one too. And maybe it's even worth taking a minute to highlight if you don't mind, like because, yeah, the part of doing more is trying to multitask. And so that completely crushes my capacity for empathy, right? Like if I'm in this conversation with you, but I'm also thinking about all the project deliverables that I have to do, or maybe if we're on a Zoom call like this, and I'm secretly writing an email at the same time or whatever, right? Then I know, okay, A, I'm probably overwhelmed and overstressed, you know, or also I wouldn't be protecting in that behavior, but be that empathy that's so important to my success on every level is really taking a hit. Yeah, so. Yeah, because I'm not present with you in that moment, right? Yeah, it's our, our presence is everywhere else. Is there anything else you'd like to share that we haven't touched on before we wrap up the episode? The importance of friendship, if I can say that, it might sound a little bit corny, but like having great real friends that are, you know, that I can have fun with and play around with, but they're also a bit of a circle of allies that I can consult with, you know, about hard things is just super critical to you. And I think I've got even more appreciation for those folks over the last couple of years. Yeah. Yeah, and I, as you mentioned that, I was like, oh, yeah, friendship, good. I think they also, in my experience, my best and most dear friends are also the ones that will call me out on all of my old patterns and, you know, old ways and, you know, sort of hold up that mirror and be like, this isn't, this isn't aligned with who you want to be now and are constantly helping me to evolve that identity and those characters and find the sweet spot to play their role. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for being here today. I've really enjoyed the conversation. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And yeah, no problem. If any listeners would like to get in touch with Brandon, his LinkedIn profile will be in our show notes and you can find it wherever you listen to the podcast. So thank you for being here.