Building Quality at the Source: Lessons from Industry Leaders

You're listening to your China Manufacturing decoded from the Sophie's Group. Hello, welcome back to the podcast, episode 252, and well, it's still early in the year, so happy new year to everybody, happy new year to you as well, Renault, this is our first of 2025. Adrian, yeah, happy new year. Now, you're coming off the back of CES at the moment, CES in Vegas, start of the year, always a busy time, but thanks for making time for recording this particular one as well. How was CES? Yeah, the consumer electronics show was, I don't see. Yeah, good place to see so many customers and meet some new people, you know, because we work, we work a lot in the electronics industry, so good to see, let's say, let me see, five of our customers were exhibiting, showing some prototypes we put together for them, so it's good to see what kind of reaction they were getting on these prototypes, what people were thinking. Actually, when people walk around, they're like, "Oh, what is this? Oh, okay." And they don't, maybe they try a little bit, but they don't look at it in the details, so the prototypes look mostly good. And the main function is there and is working, and everybody's pretty happy. It's not like a product to sell, where you have much higher standard for quality, reliability, etc. But in that case, just, you know, prototype is right there, sitting on a table and people, you know, touch a button and see, "Okay, oh, okay, understand." And then around that, you provide the context, you explain, and so on. The bar is not that high, but then whenever our customers, it's something that retracts, I cannot be too specific, but automatically with a hand gesture, and then some people, with little motors and things, and then some people thought, "Oh, I just, I don't know, it's like a drawer or something, and I need to push it back in." And then some people did it, it's a bit strong, and damaged the motor a bit, so what prototypes was a bit damaged? Yeah, the, the exhibitor was not happy. Yeah, I can imagine, because you don't have an infinite amount of prototypes there, you know, you're kind of like flying by the seat of your pants a little bit. Yeah, you're right, right. So that's the amputator reactions of some sort of the visitors sometime. That's life. That's the way it works. Yeah, well, it's, they call it the biggest, so yeah, it's good to get over there and have a look for sure. So, start of the year, we have discussed quality, of course, a bunch of times, and that's one of your specialisms, but you've probably heard the phrase, right? And I don't know whether this is a direct quote, I don't think it is. It's kind of like a shortening of what you said, right? But, but the listeners who are listening as well, right? You can't inspect quality into a product, okay? So we're kind of going to cover this topic and talk about why quality, in fact, actually starts at the source, not, it's not something that can sort of come in later. And so rather than keep, keep sort of going around the topic, let's get straight into it. And, you know, let's just talk more abstractly about this phrase by way of an introduction, please. Sure. So, yeah, let's look at cars, for example. Why is it that Honda or Toyota car is going to fail much less? Much less often than, I don't know, Rivian Tesla, a lot of other car brands, I don't want to name it, but how to say, a lot of the traditional car companies have been forced to catch up. Yeah, but maybe some of the GN cars, I remember Cadillac is all the way sort of at the bottom, even though it's supposed to be higher quality. Well, this is more about reliability, right? It fails. More often, why is that because of the way it was designed? Okay, yeah, reliability is part of let's say quality in the wide sense of the world, right? Like to keep the customer happy. You don't want the car to have an element that fades, and then you need to bring it back to the to the shop of Jaguar. Jaguar is famous car. I have. Right? Well, I had a problem with my car, which is a French car, and the model of my car had defective fuel pumps, and they only found out, you know, once the cars were all on the market, and they actually corrected it when they did a facelifted model, and they added a new fuel pump, completely different design. So my car, I had to have the fuel pump refurbished, and it's a very expensive part, by the way, it's like about a thousand pounds. So to buy a new one, and it would still be defective. And so this is, you know, this is the kind of issue, perhaps, that you're referring to. Yes, so that's that's poor design. That's a lot of quality and reliability issues come from poor design, but not just poor design, right? It can come also from even poor manufacturing of the components, or poor things like this, assembly, things of that nature, maybe even just transporting the products, storing them, and so on, right? Yeah. It can occur at different places. Sometimes the way it's used, you know, by the customers, all right? So what's the source of the quality problem? It can be many different levels, even before design. Maybe the people who say, okay, here's the requirements for the product that we need to start designing, right there, they mess something up, right? So in the case of a car, for example, they might say, well, let's not worry too much about snow and ice and things like that. Or maybe, okay, the battery need to be able to function up to a minus 10 degree Celsius, because usually it's not going to be the case, blah, blah, blah. And then later on, the car is sold and distributed in Canada, in Norway, well, big big problem here, right? Is it the mistake of the designers? Well, not really, is it the mistake of the people who define the needs for the car? And maybe also the mistake of the people who distributed the car that did not, you know, read the memo. So the source of the issue can be basically all along the chain, right? From defining the requirements and the initial planning of the product, all the way to the way it's distributed and even used by by the users, yeah. Okay. So I referred to a phrase earlier, right? And it kind of refers to the topic really about how quality is made, not found in a product, right? Not and you've mentioned cars, but there's more than just automobiles that we can discuss, which we'll come into later on, right? So saying you can't inspect quality into a product, right? Tell us a little bit about this phrase and who it's coined by, or supposedly. Yeah. So I think a lot of people have heard of dimming, right? W-Edward dimming was a statistician, a, I don't say, a student of World Issue Heart, and after World War II, the US wanted to help Japan sort of get back on its feet quickly. And you know, I want to show how it couldn't come. So this guy dimming made the trip and gave some, you know, taught basically some principles of statistical quality control and things like that to, to Japanese industry and then they did, you know, they took it seriously and between this and some, some other things that they did, some of the Japanese manufacturers really caught up with their competitors and beat them on quality and among others, right? And some becoming, it's like, you know, including Toyota, to this day still credits a lot of the philosophy behind the way it worked to what dimming taught them. Okay. It was not really like specific to dimming again, like Shue Heart couldn't come. So they sent dimming, you know, and it's like, okay, this is the way some big American companies have been working, like Bell Labs and some others, you know, statistical quality control. Uh-huh. Okay. The Japanese listen and say, okay, this is like a very structured way of working with, you know, based on data. Okay, like the underlying philosophy here is interesting. And they, they, they, they run with that. They, they did not necessarily go crazy with statistics and those, all those antiquated statistical tools that were built. basically developed in the 1920s, but they really ran with the philosophy. And theming basically was, you know, never rose to, I'll say, to be very popular and famous in its own country, in the US until the 1980s, was kind of like rediscovered, because everybody was wondering, "Oh, what's going on with Japanese products?" You know, some people say, "Oh, but look at that." Some Americans, especially, actually went there, taught them some stuff that is actually working. Oh, okay. Some of the things that the US was doing with a lot of discipline, a lot of self-discipline with a lot of, you know, intention and structure in the 30s and 40s during World War II, you know, the Japanese took it to heart and we forget all about that, right? So, like some training programs, you know, training within industry and things like that, that were taught in the factories in the US while their own guys were sent abroad and, you know, in the armed forces and the factories behind had to be productive and make good quality products for them, like weaponry and all the supplies and so on, right? American industry mostly kind of forget about it, but Japan say, "Okay, this is pretty interesting. Let's burn on that." And then they came back to, "Oh, this, this, "like, here's like a guru in Japan." You know, "Oh, theming started to interview him and so on." And he wrote a book in 1982 called "Out of the Crisis," which was sort of, "Yeah, okay, American industry is struggling." Japanese competitors are starting to eat market share away from American industry. Well, here's some points, right? And I think 14 points. So, I'm pretty good, you know, of course, like, you're gonna have pride of workmanship and you need to think of the long term, like, you know, in order to survive and things like that. And one of them, I'm going to quote his point three was, "Seize dependence and inspection to achieve quality." These point emphasizes that organizations should focus on building quality into their processes rather than relying on inspections to catch errors, right? So, what that means is to a, I'll say, an undisciplined manufacturer that does not put in place a systematic quality management system in the company. They will just get some materials to come in and do the processing and sort of end of the line have someone check and say, "Oh, no, this one's time to rework." "Okay, this one's fine, this one's fine." "Oh, this one's time to rework." And what that means is, first, obviously, some extra work because when you rework, what you're gonna do, you're gonna put it in a special place aside and you're gonna have a quality engineer look at it and determine, "Okay, this is what we need to do." And it's gonna go into some dismantling and reassembly, sort of one by one, out of the assembly lines and so on. You're gonna have to scrap some of the parts that were not made the right way. I mean, this is just expensive in money, in time. Waste a lot of material with a lot of labor and so on, right? Plus, the other parts, or products, that the final inspector is gonna say, "Okay, this is good, is it really good?" First, they might only catch, I don't know, 95% maybe if they're good of the defective products, right? Some of them are gonna go through, of course, because it's still a manual process. They're not gonna achieve 100% good result on that. And also, if you just do that, well, there's certain defects that you just cannot catch, right? Let's see, some weaknesses in the products. The product passes like right now, end of the line it works, but then after a few weeks of use, maybe it was not manufactured very well, it's gonna start to show that there's a problem and it's gonna start to work as expected. Or, so that was in case of a manufacturing issue, usually in, let's say, months, one, two, three, a lot of these issues are gonna come up and be visible, but maybe also, let's say, in months, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, a lot of the reliability issues are gonna go into show up. And that's not, that might be due to the manufacturing issues, that might also, very often it is due to design issues, okay? So, just saying, oh, yeah, we assure a quality, no problem, we have an inspector at the end of the line. If that's all you do, I'm sorry, you're not gonna have good quality, you know? You're not going to delight your customers with great products, right? Forget about it. So, that was the key message here. You gotta go more upstream into your processes and you gotta see, okay, these are our quality and reliability issues, okay? Where do we come from? Let's try to attribute them to the sources of these issues, right? And then let's work on the sources of these issues. Let's improve our processes, right? So, again, maybe the initial planning for the product, maybe the design itself, maybe the way, I don't know, the prototypes are built, test it, et cetera. Maybe the way the final qualification of the product, the engineering of the product is qualified, okay? Maybe an invalidated, I should say, that's the proper word, right? It's verified and validated. Maybe the way the production process itself is developed and validated, maybe the way the manufacturing process itself is, so once it's designed and developed and validated, okay? Then we need to make sure it runs consistently well, okay? And then everything about storage, transportation, et cetera, plus also maybe some training of the users is necessary, okay? And proper directions and guidance for them and so on. So, it's the whole, and I might forget, I still forget a few things, right? If it's, I don't know, if the product is a piece of equipment that will go into, I don't know, let's say it's an air separator, goes into another chemical plant that needed to get 99% pure oxygen, well then the whole commissioning phase is huge, right? Putting it in place and so on, linking it to the other systems, getting it to run, et cetera, et cetera. That's the commissioning, let's say the installation of the product, right? Or just the air conditioner. Let's keep things much simpler here. You install air conditioning devices in people's homes where you need to, usually you need to have someone go there and install it and make sure that it works properly, right? That's installation, usually people call it, right? So, all of this needs to be taken into account. The whole chain from the initial planning for what kind of product we should develop all the way to the product is in place, at the point of use, people are using it, let's make sure that everything is fine there and people know how to use it, okay? You need to work out of that. Otherwise, you don't have a quality system, okay? That's the key, basically. And I know you've had this conversation with customers probably many, many times, right? We're not saying that doing, let's say a final inspection is not a good thing to do. It is a good thing to do. But if you're relying mainly or just on that, then well, it's not enough. That's fundamentally the point here. - Right, right, so if you do the product development and the manufacturing yourself, I mean, of course you need, again, it's part of your quality system, right? Of course you need to have inspection. And inspection takes many forms, right? During the product development, you're gonna do, you know, reviews of the designs and you're gonna put prototypes together, you're gonna test them, you're going to do whatever verification, validation, et cetera, et cetera, all these things that are quite important when you develop the new manufacturing process for new products, same thing. You're going to review it. You're going to maybe work with a equipment manufacturer for something that's very specific. You're going to test it, maybe in their own facility. So they see right away, something is no good, how to improve on it. You know, you start to run your manufacturing process. Of course, you're going to do a lot of inspection to see, okay, like the first products, you're going to inspect them to death, [BLANK_AUDIO] You see, you know, any problem here, right? And then as you run the manufacturing in a routine fashion, you're going to keep inspecting, you know, sort of, again, maybe not 100% of the products, but if you can, why not? But you're going to pull some of them at least randomly aside and check them, just to make sure everything's fine. Just like, I don't know, a good doctor, everything's fine, whatever, maybe it's going to still check whatever the blood pressure and a few indicators, right? Let's call the health check, and it's good to do it once in a while, right? Well, you know, the dentist, you know, clean the teeth and it's going to have a quick grocery look, okay, any cavities, any issues here, right? You don't get rid of inspection. Inspection gives you data, and you use the data to, as feedback to the process. Okay, however, what Deming was writing about is all of these companies that don't have a system that don't do all these proactive work, and then at the end of the line, they will say, okay, I check it, it's fine, it's okay, good to go. Oh, this one, no good, okay, send it back to rework or scrap or something. If companies just do that, that's a big problem. Yeah, absolutely, okay. So we've covered kind of like why inspections alone don't work. You've also talked about, you know, a QA, kind of system or a quality system. Let's go into a little bit more detail about that because we're talking about the proactive side of things here. So the phrase which is going to my mind is like, you know, shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, right? So if you've got products which are displaying issues once you're having an inspection done, and then you're doing an inspection, yeah, okay, you might be able to rework them. And that of course is better than sending them all to scrap, probably, but are we actually solving the issues at source? How do we be proactive about this? So are there some pointers you can give about, you know, how to be proactive? Well, again, it depends. Do you do the, do you handle the product design and development? Do you handle the manufacturing? Or do you just buy from manufacturer? This would be quite different. If you develop, design and develop the product, you need to be very careful with the plan, the requirements you write before and really things through, okay, how is it good to be used? What environment, what are people really going to, to do with it, et cetera, et cetera, and try to learn from, seeming the products in the marketplace, okay, and think, okay, how are we going to develop that? So how are we going to confirm that? We're going in the right direction that the prototypes are, you know, going to work, was expected, and, you know, what are the compliance requirements, how to handle them and so on and so forth? And then you're going to, to do the, sort of the design, you know, the messy process of the design and development, but still it's going to have to follow a certain structure of review, evaluation, et cetera, okay. And you're going to review the product design and the prototypes for certain things, right, against the requirements. And that might include certain functions, that might include the ability to handle certain stresses, right, usually the list is low, or maybe you might have to be compatible with another product, might be easy to have to be easy to use, so you might have to actually validate that by checking with typical users and observing, if they can get a hold of it quickly or not, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, you also need to plan, okay, how is this going to be a manufacturer, right? And that's where you need to, to think in terms of the robustness of the design, okay, there's going to be some variation in the manufacturing process. How can we make sure that we don't design something that's going to be very hard to manufacture, right? Okay, if you design something that calls for a very, very narrow process window, well, that's, you know, it's going to be tough on the manufacturing guys. Like, for example, one of the customer came to us, I cannot be very specific, but we're working on industrializing their product. And it takes a while because they push the envelope so much on product design, they have these plastic parts that must be transparent and look good, okay? So, okay, that's one thing. Plus, some of these parts have to be long, but they must not war or like, it must be very, very limited. Plus, they need to be thick, you know, thicker than one would usually design these parts, right? Plus, the finishing has to be really nice. Like, the way to trim the sides has to be really, really neat. Okay, so can't even be manual trimming has to be in-mold cutting and things like that. So, here, you go from a, I don't know, thinking of the plastic injection mold, you go from tooling that might cost whatever, I'm saying something, a big random here, maybe, you know, 15,000 US dollar to something that costs, you know, double triple that, maybe double that, but also instead of being able to make the tooling and validate it, maybe within six weeks, with all the trials and all the validation tests and so on here and all the adjustments, you know, it takes more than twice as long, just because they pushed the envelope so much, right? And it's really, like, stretching the capabilities of the team, right? Which is a good thing, but it's very resource-intensive. So, that's an example, they came up with a design that was, that is not very robust, that puts a lot of difficulties on the manufacturing team's shoulders, okay? So, that's design development, also obviously, the supplier qualification is extremely important. A lot of people say, well, you know, whatever the screws and all these things would just buy them on tabo and then the whatever. Oh, this, I don't know, the rubber feet or something like that. Oh, which is on something standard of the shelf, like this, just pick the cheapest one and the simplest one is fine, it's gonna be fine. And then you go into production and yeah, they could put together 10 good samples for prototypes, but they cannot deliver five thousand good products, you know, with the less than 0.5% defective rate. No, no, no, they cannot do that, you know, 5% of them or 20% of them are defective. Well, that's a big problem, right? So, who picked that supplier, right? And was there a supplier qualification process right here? I mean, this is so common in China, it's really not funny. It's, you know, something we have to fight every day. Okay, that was design development, then you have manufacturing. And you need to have, you need to put together the right process. If it's a new product, you have to develop that new process, test it, validate it. You need to have good people, you need to train them, you need to have the basic discipline in the workshops and you need to manage that, you need to make sure that the work instructions that really clarify what is the standard. If possible, you mistake proof the operations. I mean, there's so many things, right? The equipment need to be the right equipment, need to be maintained properly, preventively. Again, this is like, do you adopt a proactive approach or do you wait until it breaks and then you fix it? Okay, but before it broke, maybe you know, the blade was already kind of half broken or something and then oh, we look at the previous 1000 parts that were processed with this machine and oh, they're all defective now. Okay, maybe we should not have waited for the equipment to break in a very obvious manner, right? Maybe we should have changed the blade a while ago. Just an example, right? So you need all that plus of course, you need good planning systems, et cetera, et cetera, just to make sure you can get your act together and ship on time and so on. Okay, so that's the manufacturing side. And obviously you need the quality gates, right? So you need the, maybe the testing jigs and checking fixtures and things like that. And you need to have the inline testing and inspection people or maybe you give that to some of the operators with caution obviously. And you still want to have, and maybe you have like an external inspectors or patrolling around, right? doing inspections during the process, because they already, probably you also need incoming antiquity control inspectors to qualify the and confirm that every batch of pods that arrive are okay. And then you still need outgoing quality, right? Still because it's the last defense of the customer, but if you have a lot of big failures in outgoing antiquity control, there's something wrong, right? I mean, if you qualify the suppliers properly and you verified with you checked, tested the pods that are sent to you and you do maybe, you know, first article inspection in process, antiquity control, etc., etc., you have the proper manufacturing and testing processes in place and you make sure that they follow the standard that was developed and that standard was validated the proper way, etc., etc., you should not have failures in outgoing antiquity control. That is a very serious kind of, you know, symptom of okay, your quality system needs to be re-evaluated here and maybe completely revamped, right? Okay, so that's if you manufacture the products and then if you just buy the pods for the products, well, you also need some kind of quality system, right? Okay, so you rely on a supplier. Does this supplier have a proper quality system themselves, right? You need to validate that, you know, you need to qualify the supplier. If not, then you need to maybe send your inspectors to that supplier's factory, right? Very, very common in India. A lot of clients, PR services for that. We have quite assurance department that does that all day long. So, again, it depends on the supplier. Do they have a mature quality system in place? Yes, or not, right? And is it just for show? So, sorry, a lot of Chinese suppliers have become very, very good at impressing, you know, on a, how to say, an inexperienced customer, right? inexperienced customer comes in and I say, oh, and look at it, and we check here, we check here, we check here, we do this, and we do that, and we're like, we're the best, and we work with such and such big, you know, big, big customers. And then the customer comes out of there and say, oh, okay, I'm all set with these guys, they're great. And then the next batch, they make a big mistake, and the customer's scratching their heads and thinking, what just happened here? How come? Like, I was blown away by how good they are, yeah? So, if you don't have experience, but actually, you know, assessing, at least assessing how mature and sophisticated a quality system is, don't try to evaluate that by yourself, right? I mean, you don't need to have developed and implemented a quality system, even though that would really help you ask the right questions. But at least you need to have some experience if you're waiting for a quality system, right? If not, get an auditor to come with you or send an auditor before your visit so that you can, you can see the audit report and you can ask some follow-up questions based on that so that you understand better. Or maybe if you just do an initial visit yourself, then have a factory auditor, you know, come like later, if it seems like, yeah, this factory is probably the right fit for us, right? But don't don't budge that supplier qualification step. It's really quite important, right? And if you buy and if they develop something, the designing develops something for you, say, a lot of communication is important, right? Try to understand what they think and maybe they're manufacturing people are going to say, "Oh, this is really not going to be easy." And I said, "Oh, okay, how could we do differently? Okay, how about if we do that?" And if they say, "Well, that's much easier." Okay, you just probably cut costs and quality issues, you know, and if the product, also your designing tent, is still there, has not been sacrificed, and if the product is going to do what it's supposed to do, that's great, that's a big win, that's what you're doing, right? So go for that, get some feedback from them, get them to participate in a risk analysis and tell you what the issues are basically. Lots to remember, this is good, but kicking off the year with sort of this timely reminder to really think about how you go about implementing quality more than just inspections, an actual system in order to, you know, make sure that you're proactively putting quality in place, not just discovering quality issues. Shall we just give a few examples of how some industries actually use this kind of approach before we finish? I mean, sure. We started to talk about the automotive industry, and so a lot of books have been written about Toyota, by the way, Honda or Subaru are excellent examples on a smarter scale that have fewer of the issues, you know, of Toyota, just because Toyota has grown so big, Toyota might not be the best example actually. Well, it's all about building quality in the product, right? Their manufacturing is great, but what really makes the difference is their product design, right? They don't use many types of fasteners, right? They keep things as simple as possible. When the operator places something in, it's just like clip, and the operator knows that it's one in place, right? I'm just talking about like final car assembly, you know, fitting, so simple things, right? But all of this comes up in the new product design phase, right? The whole concept of the chief engineer who will actually really good deep into understanding the user's needs, and then after that translate all that into some requirements, and then working with designers to make sure that it's all in line, and so on and so forth. That's really world class, right? And some other companies have been trying to emulate that. Toyota is not the load, and again, not the best example actually. I mean, yeah, look at Airbus versus Boeing. Just look at Boeing. Look at all the things that transpired in the press, but Boeing and the way they, you know, they subcontracted the fuselage assembly, and then a lot of things are going wrong in that company and the way they, let's say, they were making some kind of crippled products and put them, you know, but keep, keep going. Don't stop the assembly line and fix it later. You know, this is really not building, building quality in the product. This is terrible. Doing rework later, later, not in the proper station, but later. It is, you know, everything's wrong with that, right? Look at electronics. A lot of people look at Apple, right? Oh, Apple, their products are so great, it's fun. Yeah, right. I don't know the numbers right now, but between China, Vietnam and India, which are the countries with the manufacturer, pretty much all their products, they probably have 10,000 people or more. Okay. Between the people who designed the product, the people who designing and developed the manufacturing process, the people who follow up on all that, manages supply chain, manage, you know, supply chain security and so on and so forth. It's huge. And a lot of these people, what they do is they didn't make sure that a stringent validation and testing process is in place and is not skipped. And people say, oh, well, okay, yeah, Foxconn is great because they work with Apple. No, Foxconn is very far from great, but they just go with the process that Apple wants them to go with. Okay, oh, we need to do that. Okay, we need to make a lot of preparation samples this way that way. And we need, we need to check them that way. And we need, okay, we need to go back and fix it and make sure, you know, a lot of new samples and test them again. And so, okay, okay, okay, we'll do all that, right? You work with that supplier, you hijacked all of their product development efforts. They came up with these and we're going to work with them to see how we can make sure that all of their parts are good before it goes into assembly. Okay, okay, we'll work on that. Okay, you can work with us on that. Okay, okay, right? It's another world. It's a huge company world, right? So, yeah, when you look at construction, you know, like civil engineering, let's say you put a bridge in place or skyscraper or something like that, people do all kinds of simulations, right? About, okay, what is, what's the load that But then it's to, for example, the bridge, we need to withstand that kind of law. and what are the stresses, you know, what about lateral wind, what about these, what about that, what about a earthquake, when it's loaded and there's some, already some vibrations because the trucks are running on it and all these things. And they have, they have their formulas and their rules of thumb and things like that, you know, that the strength has to be much higher than the load and so on and so forth. And I mean, same thing with Airbus and Boeing, of course, when they develop a new aircraft, they're not going to make prototypes and then crash them and see what happens, right? Or cars also, for that matter, it's just too expensive to put together prototypes so they'll do a lot of simulations at front because these are expensive products, expensive and complex to build, especially at the prototype stage. So all of these are examples of building quality in as early as possible. And they pay a lot of attention to the way the products are designed and developed because if the product is designed and developed in a very good way, manufacturing is usually going to be easier and less error prone, right? And the users themselves would be much more likely to use the product correctly. I could keep going, but that's the idea basically, right? Yeah, yeah. A sure quality at the source or as close to the source as possible. I think that's the way I would just summarize it. And that's a great way to finish. So, you know, as we start off the year, maybe you've been listening along, think about your quality system. Are you assuring quality from the source or is this something that needs to be investigated in 2025? And of course, if it is, please get in touch with us. This is something that we help our customers with routinely. Right. Excellent. Thanks. All right. Another one for the books Renault and everybody thanks for listening. Thanks for coming on Renault and we will be back next week as normal. Thanks again for listening to this podcast, brought to you by the Sophie's group. We're on a mission to provide you with everything you need to manufacture effectively in Asia, including inspections, auditing, new product development support, contract manufacturing, 3PL warehousing and fulfilment, and much much more across Asia's key manufacturing areas. Visit us at sophist.com. That's s-o-f-e-a-s-t.com to learn more and get help. If you've enjoyed the podcast today, please do rate, review and share because it will really help others discover us too.