Building AI With Empathy: Meghan Joyce on Leadership, Motherhood & Mission

The number one reason that people don't ask for help, 44% of people say that it's because they don't want to be a burden on others. And the amazing thing about AI is you're not burdening anybody. Most of us, especially women, are not trained or rewarded for asking for help from other people. And so for a lot of us, it's a muscle we need to build. It's something we need to get comfortable doing. Women are not only adopting AI at lower rates than men and others, but when they use it, they are not being rewarded in the same way that men are. Welcome to Makers Mindset. I'm your host, Nancy Twine. The Makers Mindset podcast goes beyond the surface to explore the personal journeys of female founders and change makers. And in this episode, I'm in conversation with Megan Joyce, co-founder and CEO of Duckville, a personal assistant solution that combines the speed and intelligence of AI with the persistence and creativity of humans who know how to navigate the real world. And before launching Duckville, Megan held executive roles at Uber and Oscar Health where she led operations, product and platform strategy through major phases of growth. And she's also served as senior policy advisor in the US Department of Treasury. Let's go ahead and jump in. Well, welcome, Megan. I am so happy that you're here. It's such an honor to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, and it's so funny because I actually remember this precisely. I was at the US Open last September and I was sitting with a friend who I hadn't seen in a while. And she was on her phone a bit, like typing in some app. And I was like, what do you do, and girl, like we're at the US Open. And she was like, oh, yeah, she was like, I'm just like assigning this task so that I don't have to worry about it. And I was like, what do you mean? And she showed me the app for the first time. And I was like, and she scrolled through it and she had all these tasks that had been completed. And I was like, how did I not know about this? That makes me so happy. It was so cool. And so she gives me her referral code. And I signed up and I've been using it now for a year, actually, at 1 p.m. today, my duck bull agent is going to call me because we're filing a claim with my insurance provider and they just need me to authorize it. But like, it's so incredible. And I'm a user and I'm just so excited to kind of learn more about this journey. Oh, well, that makes my day. We honestly built the product for people like you and all anybody listening who has better things to do with their time than wait on hold with insurance or the like. And it is such an honor to be able to talk about it. It's truly what gets us out of bed and keeps us building every day. I love that. So let's start from the beginning because you launched duck bull in 2022 with a very clear mission, which was to give people back control over their time and mental space. And the idea stem from your own experience, juggling, leadership roles, parenting, and that invisible work that just never makes it onto the calendar, right? So can you take us back to that moment when this idea first clicked for you and how you knew it was time to turn that personal pain point into an actual company? Absolutely. So, you know, rewind more than a decade when I was an executive at Uber. I had a job that I loved. And I had a life that was so blessed and wonderful. And yet I found I was spending all of my spare time and energy on life admin. In fact, I have this distinct memory of sitting in my kitchen and, you know, wanting to be spending time with my partner who also had a big job or maybe getting some sleep at some point and saying, we each have it to do list a mile long of things that we need to do before we can actually spend time together or get some rest or engage in any number of other things that I would love to be doing other than waiting on hold with customer support or finally getting that doctor's appointment booked that I've been procrastinating. And I thought, I'm spending my days using technology to democratize access to rides in the case of Uber. And surely somebody must be doing this in the space of personal help. And I tried every product out there and there were some wonderful ones. But what I discovered was a tale of two cities. There were either very expensive and hard to scale human centric solutions where there was an incredibly thoughtful human who was doing a lot of legwork, but it was not super affordable. And they couldn't serve many people. And on the other end of the spectrum, there were tech-based solutions that were in service of delivering more affordable help at a higher scale, but really struggled to deliver high quality help. And in this category, in the space of personal help, every single thing we have on our to-do list needs to be done well and handing it off to anybody else to get it done comes with some amount of risk and fear that it won't be done to your standards. And so in order for a product to work, it actually has to deliver in a high quality way reliably and consistently. And what I found was the technology just didn't exist to do that until I started using Gen AI at Oscar Health and thinking this is the technology that we've all been waiting for to deliver high quality help and real leverage to everyday people in an affordable, reliable way that enables us all to have the help we deserve at a price point we can afford. - Completely. And we mentioned some of your previous leadership roles both at Uber and Oscar Health. As you were getting this company going, obviously the operations behind it were probably like a heavy lift to making this thing come to life. So are there any lessons that you took from either of those environments that you were able to sort of apply to your day to day as you were building this platform? - So many. I wouldn't be where I am today without all of these formative experiences shaping me into the person who had the courage and the passion to go do this. But I think a few things in particular. One, both Uber and Oscar are products that exist at the intersection of technology, cutting edge, world class tech, and excellent humans. And building at that intersection is a really challenging thing. Figuring out how to not only create workflows and technology and human management systems that allow those two highly complex things to come together in the same space, but also the culture where both can be celebrated. It is not easy to juggle those two different kind of ends of the human capital or working spectrum in one space. And I think I learned a lot from Uber and Oscar in some ways about how to do that well and on other days how I'm not to do it well and ways that I do it differently. But our team is full of people from Uber and Oscar and other companies that have existed at that intersection and that's where we're really passionate, particularly in an age of AI, where so many organizations are taking a pure AI approach which has its merits and its opportunities. But we like to say we're the AI company that is human first and that's a really exciting and rewarding place to be. - Yeah, completely and just as a user of the platform too, for me it would be hard to imagine having everything just be AI because there are little twists and turns that come up when you're navigating some of these different tasks that really do require the human touch and I think that that's really what differentiates your platform and actually quite frankly like makes it work, right? - Yes, that's exactly it. That was the whole thesis behind bringing these two together and frankly what has allowed us to provide that effective reliable help today, even in a world in which AI isn't capable of extending into every last mile edge case. The reality is our to-do lists are almost exclusively last mile edge cases and AI can be really helpful in scaling efficiently and in an highly personalized way but it's not good at last mile, particularly on edge cases. Coming from Uber, this reminds me a lot of autonomous vehicles and autonomous driving. Autonomy can be very, very helpful. Think of the most basic autonomous driving, autopilot. When you're on a highway and you're going 60 miles an hour, that's something that can serve all of us really well. But when you're navigating back roads or you're in a busy place with a lot of pedestrians and bikers, you need human hands on the wheel. And that's how we think about our product. We allow AI and encourage AI and celebrate the fact that AI can help take tasks pretty far and pretty effectively and pretty quickly and pretty affordably. And then where the baton needs to be handed to a human or a set of humans in order to get that last mile edge case done, it can be, and then it can be handed back to AI again. And navigating that workflow across your personal to-do list is our bread and butter. - Amazing. Well, you know, with Makers mindset, our audience is, you know, pretty wide and diverse, but a lot of people who listen to this podcast or either entrepreneurs themselves, or they were once in your seat, where they were working for a big company and started thinking about going out and doing something on their own. And as I'm sure, you know, from personal experience, you know, making that leap is a pretty big life shift for a lot of different reasons. And I just love to know, from your perspective, was there a criteria or something that you used to know that it was the right time to make the leap into entrepreneurship? And how would you recommend that other people evaluate when it's their time? - First and foremost, I just want to say up front. The world is a better place for having people like you, Nancy, having founded a company and for the listeners of this podcast to even have the inkling that they may want to found something. We need more founders who have this kind of mindset and background, you know, so much of science and technology and innovation reflects the people who are leading it. And the world would be better off for different kinds of people with different perspectives and backgrounds, founding companies that are important to them. And I think the products that we would see on the market would serve people better for the fact that more people would be willing to take the plunge into entrepreneurship. And I think my number one piece of advice was actually given to me by a dear colleague and mentor of mine, Jean-Michel Vallette, who himself was a multi-time executive and had worked very, very closely with founders and said to me, you have to love it. Do you love it? Do you love this, not just the product, but maybe even more importantly, the mission behind it? Can you not sleep at night? Because you can't think of doing anything else other than serving this mission and you're willing to do whatever it takes, run through walls and do the really hard thing and get punched in the face over and over again by rejection in pursuit of serving this mission. And if you can answer yes to that question, it's a big scary question, but if the answer is yes, I don't think you can do anything other than considering going and starting this thing. And it is a hard question and I put it as bluntly as that because I think founding something is incredibly difficult. And Nancy, you can speak to this more than anyone, going something out of nothing, bringing something that didn't exist into existence and pushing that uphill every single day is one of the most intellectually and emotionally difficult things that I've ever done. Frankly, the only parallel I can think of is parenthood. And thank God I love my kids because it makes all those ups and downs worth it and thank God I love my mission because it makes all the ups and downs worth it. And if you love it, it will be the tale when you need to get through those ups and downs. And I think we'll actually make them incredibly rewarding, especially when you get past a little bit of the emotional rawness of the moment. Yeah, I mean, I can't stress enough what you said about the fact that you have to love it wholeheartedly in your soul, in your mind, your body. You have to embody it because it is so hard. And if you kind of like something or think you love it, but don't really love it, when you get those curve balls and those setbacks and those disappointments, it's just so much easier to say, you know what? I don't think that this is the right thing for me. I'm going to pivot to something else. It really does take a certain level of love and passion and mindset to keep going despite all of those things. So I think that that is just so, so, so incredibly important. And I want to pivot also just into the topic of people because as you know, success is not driven by one individual, it really does take a team. And it's always great when you can find people who are just as passionate about the mission and put them in the right seats to help lead growth forward. And I'm sure that in your previous experiences too, working at fast growing companies, you've learned a lot about how to build, you know, lean and resilient teams. And I always tell people that leadership, you never fully learn it like you're constantly learning it and developing. But I would just kind of love to know, what was the first hire at Duck Bill? Like what did you prioritize? And do you feel like that was the right move? Would you have changed things? And I'd also just love to hear too. Now that the company is much larger, how do you think about your leadership and, you know, making sure that you have the right motivated team to drive things forward? - Oh my gosh. - This could be a multi-hour conversation unto itself and to your point, it never ends. And by the same token, I don't know if you agree with this, but like there are very rarely right answers. You're doing the best with the information you have and the circumstances you have. And I think knowing when to change and take a different tack is almost half the battle because some things you try are gonna work out of the gate and many won't and that's okay too. You know, candidly, the first people we hired at Duck Bill were contractors, people who worked for, you know, these kind of freelancing, engineering firms, folks who lived abroad and we hired them because we could hire them fast. And frankly, I could afford them. I was bootstrapping in those early days. We needed to start putting together an MVP, getting something off the ground. And it was also kind of the tail end of COVID. Everything was still happening remotely. And that was what worked at the time. And in so many ways, if you had given me a magic wand or a crystal ball and said, you know, do it over. Do it in your dream world. I would say, I might have said, oh, you know what? It would be really nice having all those people sitting in an office with me at least five days a week. It would be really nice having those folks, you know, a different profile or a different approach. At the same time, if I had waited for that, if I had insisted on that, I don't know if Duckwell would be where it is today. You know, the counterfactual is so hard to construct because we can always imagine this dream world if things haven't gone perfectly. And I think the reality of life and definitely a founding is you can almost bet things are not going to go perfectly. (laughing) There is going to be trade-offs and hardness, no matter which path you take. And so we made the right decision at the time for the funding we had and the time we had and the objectives we had. And we still have a lot of those people with us today, but we've also evolved the team. And we have brought people into, you know, more centralized locations. And we have higher different profiles of people. And I think the most valuable lesson that I still think about today, even people who I hired late in the game, is that I need to have the courage to confront where things are really working, even if they're unorthodox. And I need to have the courage to confront where things are not working, even if that person were that set up, got us to where we are today. Just because it got us to where we are today doesn't mean it's what's going to bring us forward. And just by the same token, just because conventional wisdom is, we need all be in one place and we need to have this profile or this background, doesn't mean that that's a must have. And I think the most important thing is the willingness to evolve. The willingness to change, especially in a early stage high-growth organization where, frankly, the needs of your human capital and team evolve almost by the day, completely. And I, one of the things too that I think for me as a first-time founder that perhaps, not coming from some of the scaling startups that you came from like Uber and Oscar Hell, was realizing how important it is to really establish your company's values and making sure that when you're even onboarding people and hosting all hands meetings that you're constantly revisiting them, it's something that people come into the company learning and then there's that constant revisiting. And I'd love to hear about how you went about defining Duckville's core values in those early days and maybe even to what advice you would give to a founder that's trying to create values that actually guide decisions and that don't just sit on a slide deck, right? Which can sometimes happen. - Yes, oh, Nancy, this president so much. And I've seen, I've been in companies where the values guide day-to-day decisions for better or for worse. And to your point, you know, revisiting those to make sure we're still interpreting them and we're still acting on them in the way that they were intended and that are serving our company and our customers and our team and our ecosystem. And I've also worked in organizations where there's some really beautiful values hanging on the wall and well-designed corporate value posters. And yet I don't see them in the behavior of the company. And writing down our values was actually one of the first things the early team and I did together. And they are almost entirely intact today, but we have absolutely evolved them based on new folks who have come in and said, oh, this language really doesn't resonate with me and here's why and here's how I might evolve this to better reflect what I think we're going for here. And there have been some really good changes to how we talk about our values and ensure that they are resonating with people in a way that we get the behavior we are looking for out of them. There are other than other things that we've said, I need to add this, I'm realizing that this is actually a core value of ours that I need to write down explicitly. Our values at Jack Bill are high standards, high support. That maybe is our most important one that we hold each other to excellence at the same time that we're putting each other's arm around our shoulders and saying, I'm holding you to this type of arcs, I believe in you and I want to build this with you and I think you're capable of it and I know we can do this together. Inclusivity, empowerment, and integrity and running through walls. Those are our five and I'll tell you I've been thinking recently that I'd like to write down growth mindset. I think it's something that's embedded within running through walls but it's so important that I want to call it out explicitly and that's one way that I have thought about evolving our values over time. One way that we've shifted the, taken something out of our values. Running through walls, we originally called, we hustle. And I have a very positive connotation with the thought of hustling. I am a former Uber employee who hustled my butt off for years and I saw that as a very positive thing and we got feedback from people like, I don't love that word and I don't think you mean all the connotations that it comes with it in my mind and we said, I actually think run through walls, captures all the good without some of the negative connotations great, call it running through walls if that's really what we're talking about. But I think my number one piece of advice for a founder who is approaching, codifying those values is honestly to start with their own value system and to unapologetically write those down on paper or have the courage to say them out loud because there is almost always a constructive, positive, important way to talk about your personal values no matter what they are. And I think I often see people saying, well my real value is hustling or my real value is like, I wanna generate a big massive, highly valued company that'll make a lot of people rich. And you know what, like there are some pieces of hustling or a commercial building that could be misinterpreted but if they are truly your values, I think hiding them is only going to cause confusion within the company. And I think if you can say like, no actually these are part of what got me where I am today and there's a really dignified noble aspect of them where you know for me personally hustling was about running through walls and doing the impossible and being fearless in doing things that a lot of people think can't be done or you know commercial building like creating fulfilling meaningful dignified work for people who need it. Like there is so much good in that. And I think being willing to unapologetically articulate what your personal values are as the founder is so important because in a founder led company, the company values are gonna flow pretty directly from the founder and if the founder is for whatever reason in denial or not willing to say out loud what those values are, I think it's going to become quite confusing and inauthentic or you know not get the full value out of them and that's where I've seen the risk of like we put something on the wall but we all know the real values are something different. And in the optimal scenario you want to be able to shout those values from the rooftops and for them to be this wildly inspiring aligning feature of the organization. - Yeah, I love that so much and I think for me too it's where I've found values to be a really important tool just even in the hiring process. And I think it's important too to realize that like not everyone may align with your values. And that's okay too and that's why I think that authenticity and transparency when you're actually hiring people is like another great way to vet like hey, is this someone who's gonna really thrive at our company or maybe they're more well-suited for a different kind of atmosphere. And so I think it's just a really great tool too to make sure that you're bringing in people who are aligned that can really thrive in the environment and that's just good for everyone. - Amen, amen. And I think once you're talking about values especially in a non-judgmental way you can have that conversation or add this is gonna be a great fit for the people who share those values and also no harm, no foul if it's not yours. And really being candid about whether or not that there is alignment there is so important because in the same way that the founder has to love it it's really helpful for the team to love it too. And it's really helpful for the team to share those values because the team feels the ups and downs as well. And they have to feel like they're serving a mission in a set of values that are aligned with their own personal sentiments and kind of purpose on the planet as well. - Absolutely. And I wanna pivot for a moment because if you were to ask me sort of what is the top topic of interest that we get within the maker's mindset community. I mean so many people are navigating and figuring out how to find funding for their businesses. And you've done exactly that. You've raised funding from product bill, from top tier investors like forerunner ventures. While also staying true to your core mission of building a trusted human centered platform for life management. I would love to know how you went about crafting a pitch that felt strategic but also again true to the mission and values, you didn't feel like you had to sort of sell something that was different just so that you could bring on the funding. Can you talk a little bit about that? - Nancy, I think the last conversation we were having is such a perfect dovetail into this because I would say the same thing about seeking investors and board members as I would employees. It is so important to be clear about your values and to find investors and board members who share those values too. And if someone doesn't, that's okay. We are living in a moment in time where there's a record amount of capital and dry powder out there. And not only will seeking out investors who have your same shared values help you be a more compelling investment for them. But I think you can find them. They are out there. And the strategic upside, the benefit that comes when you have that alignment, not just from founder CEO through the organization, but up into your cap table and your board is so wildly important. In some cases, even more important. And, you know, I've seen it all. At this point, having spent the last 20 years in different roles of the high growth founder led organizations and also on the investing side and the capital side. And I think when you can find that kind of values alignment with an investor, it's so powerful. And with regard to pitching, if you again, if you can have the courage to say out loud what your authentic mission is, what your values are. And why you feel so passionately about this thing that you are truly in love with. I think that is, that's it. That is the core of that pitch. You know, especially as you move later stage, I think having strong business fundamentals matters. I think we're in a moment in time where you can probably fund me as a fair amount of money on vibes, but nothing beats excellent business fundamentals. But I really even think getting to strong business fundamentals starts from a place of internal alignment and passion. And oftentimes, especially in early stage fundraising, seed, pre-seed seed series A, it's that alignment and passion that gets investors excited and shows them that you have what it takes to go through all those ups and downs. You have what it takes to recruit a team. And you have what it takes to fight for a place that you have really strong business fundamentals. And I just think, again, having the courage and the clarity to be unapologetic about what that passion and those values are just pays dividends in all aspects of building, including, and maybe especially on the fundraising side. Yeah, I agree with that. And I want to just take that a step further, too, because this is actually based on recent experience. I think when you talk about passion, I think a lot of people think that, OK, passion starts and ends with giving just a really provoking and thoughtful, sort of verbal pitch about their story and why in the audience. And that is very important. But sometimes I've seen a very passionate pitch paired with materials that just visually look lackluster. And that was like the one thing that was amiss for me, because they did such a great job presenting. But then when I saw sort of like the brand and the deck, it was like they kind of threw it together so that that was like the missing link. And so I think my big piece of advice is when you talk about passion, passion, you know, that should fuel excellence in everything. How you present your numbers. How you present your deck, you know, even if it's baby steps that you've taken with branding, give someone a sense of like where it could go. Like you have to be holistic about the passion piece and the excellence. I love that. And I think especially in consumer businesses, which you and I both build in the consumer space, impressions matter. And when you're delivering something like Duck Bill, which is help in your personal life, how you show up is a signal to people about the level of excellence and detail orientation and taste and you know, quality that they are going to be able to expect from you. And so we can't forget that very normal natural part of human psychology and the fact that like, despite our best intentions, it may reflect some of that. And so I think knowing that and reflecting that in your approach is such good advice. Yes. Well, I couldn't agree more. And I want to take a minute to Megan to talk a little bit about you because I'm sure that you are, you know, the ultimate user of your own product. And I would love to know who someone, you know, like you who's an expert in helping people manage their time better, what sort of frameworks do you personally use to decide where your time needs to go and what can wait? What can we learn from you, Megan? Oh, well, that's very flattering. And I will tell you my team jokes. Like, are we building this product for you? And I say, absolutely, I am absolutely the ICP. I understand this problem deeply. If all I talk about, and it's all I hear from so many friends and loved ones and colleagues. And so you are right. I am a very passionate duck bill user. And, you know, I think in so many ways has been born out of what I've found has worked in allowing me to shape the life I want to lead. Now, everybody is different. Everybody does have different values and their definition of the ideal life. But for me, that's a life where I have a career that I love. I love building something with people that I love working with. That is so fulfilling and rewarding and intellectually stimulating. And I want to be able to do that. And I want to be able to do it unapologetically, which means, then when I have spare time, I'm able to use it to have quality time with the people I love, whether it's my kids or my parents or my friends, or frankly, even myself, like to recharge and reflect and have the energy to carry on. And I would not be able to have that life never mind, you know, I sit on a couple of public company boards. I involve with a couple of nonprofits. I sleep every now and then, you know, I wouldn't be able to lead that life if I weren't willing and able to offload a whole bunch off my plate. And in so many ways, that is something of extreme privilege that I have been able to do so. But I don't think it should take such access and such investment to do that. I truly believe that time and energy and having that kind of control and agency in how your one life looks and feels and unfolds is a right. It is something that every single person deserves access to, whether or not you can afford traditional human centric health or not. And that is one of the reasons why I think building this kind of product that does democratize access to the high quality, unapologetic, shame, and guilt-free help that we all deserve is so important and so noble. And Duckbill and I are non-judgmental, whether you want to use that spare time and energy that you free up to build that career you love or have time to stay at home with your kids or cultivate your rare cactus collection. You do you, whatever that is that turns you on. The world needs all types and life is short. And I really truly believe that that every single one of us deserves to live that life unburdened by not just the complexities of day-to-day modern living but also, frankly, the things that often disproportionately fall to women. And I try to live and model every day for myself, for my kids, for my team, for the people who work for me that asking for help is actually a sign of real strength and strategic use of your time and energy and that if we can help imbue this product with that mentality, then we may be able to help a few more people as well. - I love that so much, Megan. What a powerful mission. That's really awesome, very real. And we do love it. It gets us out of bed every morning excited and inspired to do this. - Awesome. Well, you know, it's an interesting time for entrepreneurs who are launching businesses because they're launching in the midst of this just incredible shift that's happening through AI and how quickly it's changing. I feel like, what are we on chat GPT version five now? And it's just going and going and it's evolving so fast. But I do think it's, you know, easy for early stage founders to feel, you know, overwhelmed or left behind if they're not, you know, thinking about how to leverage, you know, AI to sort of get ahead. And so from your perspective, where do you see the real practical value of AI showing up for founders today? - Yeah, I think just to reiterate what you just said, things are changing at warp speed. And so we're sitting here on August 15th and I could tell you the specific ways I use models and it might change by the time people are listening to this podcast because that's how fast and rapidly and dramatically things are changing. And there's a lot of opportunity in that. And there's also a lot of anxiety and uncertainty in that, whether you're a founder, building, and you don't know whether this product is going to be relevant in the not so distant future. Or do you, even just as a human? I think, you know, any amount of uncertainty, never mind one of this level of change is, it's of course, it has its scary aspects and anxious, you know, implications. And so I just want to affirm that, but I feel it too. I got it. You know, I think of AI as feeling very similar to a highly capable human for better or for worse. And when I say that, I mean, having a very capable human by your side can be enormously valuable as any of us know who have had the privilege of working with incredible teams. But it also requires a willingness to ask for help. It also requires some trial and error. It also requires some trust but verify. 'Cause no human and no AI model are perfect. And I say that because I think it provides a little bit of a template for people as to how to interact with some of these models. Okay, this is like I have a human sitting next to me, a world class analyst sitting next to me. And I think the amazing part about that is that the best help is guilt-free help. The number one reason that people don't ask for help according to a recent study we just did with the Harris poll. 44% of people say that it's because they don't want to be a burden on others. And the amazing thing about AI is you're not burdening anybody. You are truly using this product as it was meant to be used, whether that's Duckbill or one of the large language models out there. So if you're not, take that invitation that asking for help, if you have any inhibition about asking a human for help, here's something that is truly guilt and burden-free. At the same time, the flip side, the other side of that coin, is that most of us, especially women, are not trained or rewarded for asking for help from other people. And so for a lot of us, it's a muscle we need to build. It's something we need to get comfortable doing. In fact, very recent hot off the press studies have shown that women are not only adopting AI at lower rates than men and others, but when they use it, they are not being rewarded in the same way that men are. That if a man and a woman walk into the same meeting and a man says, I built this deck using chat GPT, he is more likely to be seen as like, oh, what a resourceful person. Then if the woman comes in and of course, not rewarding in the same way, like so many things in life. And so I think even more reason that the women of the world should be leaning in here and saying, we have to get engaged. We have to be able to figure out how to leverage this thing in ways that work for us, in ways that build our confidence in asking for help, in ways that give us genuine leverage and doing a little bit of trial and error to figure out what that is. And I know no two people use Duckbill the same way, right? I might outsource planning one of my kids' birthday parties because to me, that is not something I get a lot of joy or energy out of. At the same time, like someone else might love planning their kids' birthday party and that's what they want more time and energy to go do. What they'd rather outsource is, you know, some of the paperwork or customer support or travel planning or something like that. And my number one piece of advice for people who don't feel comfortable or confident using AI, but also just delegating in general is, what is that thing you're dreading, that you're procrastinating, that is energy draining for you? Start there because it's very low risk. And worst case, you get a few steps down the road and you're kind of where you started and you're no worse off. But chances are that you were actually used that help, that asked for help to catapult something forward that's been sitting on your to-do list or kind of occupying space at the back of your mind more than you've been able to do alone. And I think that's one of the virtuous cycles of asking for help that we have the chance to tap into with this kind of guilt-free resource that AI affords. I love that. I actually haven't put those two things together, the fact that it is, you know, a guilt-free resource. You can ask for help without feeling like you're burdening someone and I'm sure that there's so much, you know, opportunity that will come from that. And, you know, pivoting back to you, you are a mom of three children and you've shared, you know, how your own experience of juggling, parenting and leadership and, you know, that invisible mental load was part of what inspired Duckville. And for many founders, motherhood doesn't just shift logistics. It really transforms how they lead, how they set boundaries, how they make decisions. So what was one mothering moment that really radically reshaped your personal boundaries or leadership habits at work? I love this topic because it has been such a real transformation for me, not only, as you said, making me a better leader and manager and more empathetic and also more fierce in setting boundaries and demanding excellence. 'Cause I don't have the time for anything else. Maybe the most formative moment was when I was preparing to go back to work after my first parental leave and realizing how sad, just to put it very truly. I was so sad not to be spending all day every day with this little human that I loved more than anything. And it occurred to me that I better really love what I'm doing to feel good, not just feel okay, but feel good about spending eight to 12 to 16 hours a day away from her. And I say this with a bit of acknowledgement that it's a privilege to be able to do what you love, but also as an aspiration that we will all be better at what we do when we love it. And by the way, the number one predictor of success in any kind of role is actually not prior experience or skill, it's passion. And so I would really encourage people to reflect on what is it that I love doing or what is it that I love thinking about? And you might not be able to find the perfect dream job, especially at the outset. You said, I'd love to be a rock star and I'd love to perform like, you can't snap your fingers and have that overnight, but what is it about that is the kind of public speaking and public performance aspect of it? Is it the music aspect of it? And you can probably find your way into something that taps into that kind of nugget of that dream job that you really are passionate about. And that to me has allowed me to be excited when Monday morning rolls around and it's time to go back to work and also be excited when Friday evening comes and it's time to have a weekend with my kids that I love the time I have with them. And I also love what I do for work. And to me, that's what allows me to throw myself into it because I really do selfishly love it. And I also, you know, I think I, if this works, like we're making the world a little bit of a better place for them, which is part of my value system and what gets me out of bed and helps me feel better about being a working parent. And I think that increased opportunity cost that comes with having kids is actually quite a healthy thing that we should all have a high bar for how we are treated in the workplace, the mission behind the works that we're doing. And again, we might not be able to snap our fingers and change it immediately, but that's what every single one of us deserves. And that North Star can be really powerful and help you finding a place that you do feel good about working because it is what we deserve. And sometimes for me, it took having a kid to realize that. - Yeah, and I think that the boundaries piece one is a big one, just having a much more discerning sort of filter into what you say yes to and how you protect your time, I think is really critical. I mean, that's something that I've really been learning more and more over the past couple of years is really protecting your time. It's critical. - It's our most limited resource, right? And that's what Duck Bill is all about. And that is what I think getting the most out of life is all about, that we can't wave a magic wand and create more of that. And it's the number one thing so many of us would take if we could get it. And so how can we make the most of it? And that's why Duck Bill exists and I think it's a lot of what has helped me make sure I am spending my time in the most fulfilling ways for me. - Absolutely. Well, we talked about the fact that being relentlessly passionate is pretty much, you know, table stakes for a successful entrepreneur. But for anyone who's listening that maybe is still sitting on their idea, wondering if it's time, is there another critical piece of advice that you would want them to hear before they take that leap? Definitely. The number one thing I did when I was trying to decide whether to take the plunge and leave my job at Oscar Health that I loved in order to go start this thing was to run a low stakes experiment. And frankly, this was taking a page out of the Uber playbook. When Travis Kalanick, the co-founder of Uber was looking to start that product, he hired a private driver and made that private driver available to a group of friends. Just to understand how it would work to have a group of people using shared access to a driver. When was the high demand period for that driver? When was that driver bored and lonely, did people use it a lot? Did they see value in it? And I took that playbook and replicated it in my own business. We brought on an amazing EA, a woman named Sean, who is still with us, a critical part of our team, who was an experienced EA. And we said, we're gonna introduce you to 15 families that we know, 15 customers. And all we ask is that if they do work with you, that we see the high level data of how much, how often, and on what types of tasks. And we charged that cost. Charlens hourly rate, we passed through 100% took no profit on it, no margin, but also didn't subsidize it because I wanted to see when people paid the real cost of Charlens brilliant time. Did they use it? And what we found was incredibly helpful in shaping the product. And frankly giving not only me confidence to leave my job and go do this full time, but also in retrospect, our early investors gave them confidence to invest, which was that people loved the product. They started using it and they used it more and more and more every day. They wanted to tell their friends and loved ones about this product. To have other people have access to the amazing shawl and they wanted to use it for a pretty wide range of different tasks, but a discrete set of tasks where we really could use large language models to develop expertise and workflows. And all of that shaped the early product and allowed us to get off the ground in our MVP first iteration. And I think that experiment was very affordable. We did it nights and weekends and it gave us the kind of green shoots of signal that there is something here and also de-risked it a little bit where we said, oh, yeah, okay. I do feel confident about taking the plunge. And I think having that experimental mindset is something that has served us now three years into building. And honestly, really just instilled that approach into how we operate from day zero. Awesome, really helpful perspective. So Megan, before we wrap up, we're going to pivot into five fire facts. It's a rapid fire interview that just gives our audience a candid glimpse into some of your personal life hacks, perspectives and experiences. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay. Favorite task to give to Duckville? Oh, I, anything customer support related, I had an Amtrak train canceled the other day and I had to get off the train and come back to my original destination. And I had not only gotten that fair refunded, my return fair refunded and a credit from Amtrak, but it happened before I got back to my original destination. Anything customer support related handed off to Duckville? Amazing. A book or author you recommend over and over. Oh, Catherine Graham, her autobiography personal history is so inspiring to me. She was a really publisher of the Washington Post in an era where there weren't a lot of women leading, especially in those kinds of roles and seeing up close impersonal, the ups and downs that she went through and how she handled them and the vulnerability and grace and authenticity with which she led. I just find so inspiring. Awesome. Favorite way to unplug without guilt, oh man. Honestly reading. Reading for me is so all-consuming that I can't possibly think about what I'm missing, what I should be doing or even the guilt that I am reading. And so I always try to have at least a couple books on my bedside table that I'm actually excited to pick up and read. Also happens to be a good alternative to scrolling social media, which I am very guilty of. I think we all are sadly. One life admin task you secretly love doing. Oh, I love folding laundry and unloading the dishwasher. Putting dirty laundry in, putting dirty dishes in the dishwasher, like you could not, oh my gosh, I would outsource those so fast. But dealing with the clean stuff on the other side, putting things away brings me this immense amount of control. Don't stop being calm and controlled. I get it. Favorite way to spend a day with your kids. Oh, honestly, like taking a walk on the beach, hanging out, it's those quiet moments that we don't have to be doing anything fancy. It's creating enough space and time and frankly a little bit of boredom that the real conversations start to happen. And if you can have the joy of doing it in a place where you have some natural beauty, it's a plus. Love that. And lastly, where can people learn more about DuckBill? Go to duckbill.ai or download our app and sign up. We would be so honored to help. And truly, we started this company to help people live more fulfilling joyful lives. And so not only would we love to be a small part of that for you, but we also love your feedback. So you can find me at [email protected] for any feedback or special requests or anything that you'd like to share so that we can continue making this the product that these listeners deserve. - Amazing. Thank you so much, Megan. This was amazing. Thank you, Nancy. This makes my day. It is such an honor to be here with you. - Thank you. Well, to stay connected with Megan, the Makers Mindsack community and me, check out all of the details and the description below and don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share with your community. Thanks so much for tuning in. (upbeat music)