Building a Fully Onchain Exchange: Inside World Markets | Aurelius & Hersch

if possible, you should build the entire thing on chain. That is super counterintuitive. You ask any engineer, you know, matching engine, etc. None of that can exist on chain. And so this with this counterintuitive insight, we ask ourselves, do we think the EVN will eventually get fast and cheap enough to support a fully on chain exchange? Nothing's set on 0x research is the recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. It's podcasts. This word, informational purposes only. And any views expressed by anyone on the show are sold. They are opinions, not financial advice. Pocaccio, Ryan and our guests may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed. What's up guys? Welcome back to another episode of 0x research. I'm joined by Lucas and Hirsch from World Markets. Thanks for coming on guys. Thank you. Perfect. For our uninitiated listeners, do you guys want to give a short introduction into yourselves, World Markets and why you guys decided to build World Markets? Yes, sir. I'll go ahead and start. So my name is Lucas. My market's a rally is on Twitter. And I started my first crypto company in 2017 co-founded it as a CTO. That was also an exchange. So a derivative exchange with a hybrid architecture. And then sold out to Amber Group in 2021 with insights from that business launched. Essentially, it's still working on security and trading infrastructure, which evolved into a multi-manager hedge fund across DeFi and DeFi. And then it's still working on World Markets. Essentially, the four ideas and inspiration and insights for World Markets came from the first company from 2017 to 2022 period or 2021. But started the firm thereafter. Perfect. And then you guys are building on mega-eaf, right? Any particular reason why you guys chose mega-eaf or? Yeah, so one of the core insights we had in the first company was there's a relationship between the risk engine and state synchronization. It's technical. We can go down the rabbit hole if it's interesting. But it suggests that you should build the whole exchange for crypto exchanges and really for exchanges, cross-asset classes. That is super counter-intuitive. And so this with this counter-intuitive insight, we ask ourselves, do we think the EVM will eventually get fast and cheap enough to support a fully on chain exchange? Again, this is like 2021, 2022, 2022, 23, etc. And we decided to make that assumption that it would kind of akin to Moore's law. And so that was the sort of insight on the impetus to launch the venue. And then in terms of building on mega-eaf, mega-eaf is the only blockchain that has credibly solved that problem. So the first and the only both on the tech side. And then it's a bonus that they have also the best ecosystem or the emerging ecosystem in the industry. So if trust is an easy decision. Okay, I think that makes sense. And more specifically, what you're referring to is that, well, I guess let's dive into the gas cost section of it, because I guess I haven't used mega-eaf very much. What does the comparison to, let's say, another L2 with no base, although I know that has. And then compared to maybe another L1 EVM like Moana is the big one. How much cheaper is it that it makes sense that you can put everything on chain on mega-eaf? You don't have to have the exact thing. Yeah, that's a great question. So I can give exact numbers to this helpful, but in short, there are two parts to this. One is the structural computation of gas costs and kind of the relationship of gas to like other things on the blockchain or in the ecosystem. That's the structure. And then the second is the actual cost. So the actual cost is, it depends on exactly how you build the app because the op codes have potentially comprising. And there's also kind of a, like being constantly improved by the mega-team, but it's meaning to be cheaper than pace. The target cost is to be about 10x cheaper than base. And so it's cheaper and kind of moving in that direction. The structural advantage that Megith has as compared to the system, like Moana, he mentioned is for L1s, there is a dilemma between the token holders or investors and the apps. So because the gas token is network token, like is the thing you own that becomes valuable. If that price goes up, then you reward the investors, but you penalize the apps because say, a part of the exchange is not going to be able to effectively operate, right? It's too expensive. And vice versa, you can make it very cheap, but in L2, like Megith doesn't have the Dylon. They can, you know, there's, we're all in center of the line in terms of like where does your gas should go. I think that makes sense. And then last on the gas stuff is, or I guess choosing to build on Megith as opposed to having your own app chain is one of the common takes. I think we used to have this before hyperlite, but it got even more popular. Obviously, some side of the campaign successful was this idea that you shouldn't have a purpose exchange compete with other apps for block space. Obviously, you guys are building on Megith, so you're going to be competing with the Megamafia apps as well as like whatever else is long gone. What's your take on this? So there's a, there are two parts to this question as well. Every, all my answers have at least two parts. So the first and most important thing is that I actually think that Megith is, there's sort of this paradigm historically of, okay, exactly what you said, either you're an app chain or you're a general purpose chain and you need to choose and they have trade-offs and good luck. I actually think Megith is in kind of a new category, if you will, is sort of like pushing the frontier on this, which has arisen organically from our interactions and from working with them to not boss here in a number of months. And that is that you can panic at the best of both worlds. So it's actually possible to have a general purpose chain like Megith, but then fine-tune or improve the RPC infrastructure, the sequencer to like more efficiently computer operate certain apps, which is the work that we've been doing with Maggie. So not all transactions need to be treated equal and in fact should be treated equal. And the benefit of this is that the apps get the best of both worlds. Actually, you don't have to pick and choose if you have like really good collaboration between the apps and the chain, which is again, you need to megadave if you compare this to other ecosystems. And so I think that's the kind of the first part of it. The second part of it is, okay, well, what are the benefits of being on a general purpose chain? I think not a lot of people talk about that when it comes to this discussion. And to simplify it, exchanges and all financial applications need distribution. The irony is that if you talk to the same people who think that purpose need to be on options, they will also tell you that distribution is 95% of the game. Well, you got to pick or choose. So all of the money is on Ethereum L1, Ethereum mainnet, like slow, expensive Ethereum. So pretty clear that like, you know, distribution matters when it comes to your ecosystem chain. Yeah, I think that makes sense. Okay, let's get into world markets. You guys have a very handy tool on your docs page that says, what is your unique features? But I want to, so I'm going to start from the very top of those, which is Atlas, your risk engine. So this will be fully on chain. Yes, that's right. And the app is live and public. We're still bootstrapping liquidity. Purpose liquidity is pretty good. Lending liquidity has like just started to come online this week as being not massive, but significant enough for people to properly use it. Spot liquidity is next. Okay, so maybe let's start it from the very top. So you guys are doing purpose spot and lending. How does I can see how spot and lending work spot together? Does the purpose and lending work with each other? Maybe like a general overview of the architect and how everything links to one another. Yeah, great question. So it's all, so every market is on an order book, including the loans. Loan are 10-day duration fixed rate. That's super important. Anybody who's used D5 professionally is kind of aware of the very painful risks of the variable rate lending and the cross collateral pools and all this stuff, which has a lot to do and a lot of losses. There's none of that on-world. So it's fixed rate and you get that rate for the term of loan and then you can choose whether to renew it. So you have these three, you know, severed markets. What unifies them is the the margin system i.e. Atlas service engine. And I guess a really good question, which is what's the relationship between say, perpsum and lending? Right. So the venue world does a couple of unique things. The first is that you can borrow under collateralized for spot assets. That's really useful for any kind of yield bearing tokens. What you see in D5 is like loop lending. No more. One click. Right. So that's where spot is useful. That's also useful because as the lender, like let's say that you're trading perps, you want to get interest on your collateral. Right. Pretty sure forward. Like right now, you get a hyperliquid, you know, lighter. Those dollars should sit there. They're unproductive. If you really get a, you know, 7% 8% return on those idle dollars, you can do that on the world. Taking it a step further, world understands net market exposures. So if you were short East perps and you're long, say, state, teeth, then it understands that those net to zero or if the, you know, national value is the same, but there's net off. And we'll compute risk primarily on the market exposure, such as the gross exposure. There's a little bit of risk consumption that goes into the gross exposure, you know, due to liquidity and such, but the wall that's on the net exposure. Is this not done currently on other perps, exchanges on that right? Yeah, it's not done on any DeFi exchanges whatsoever. No, DeFi apps. And the under collateralized lending, I assume, is only to make this. I know you can like just borrow and then buy a spot. You can borrow, you know, you have a thousand dollars, you could borrow $10,000. Okay. I have sweet NF. Yes, you can't withdraw it. Okay, that makes sense. Okay, let's talk a bit about Atlas, maybe at a high level. So it brings, I guess, all three of them together and then compared to the other risk engines that exist, it actually computes using, use your spot balances, I assume they're borrowing as well. It takes that into account. Of course. And the perps positions. How did you guys, how did you guys come up with this? Or I guess, is this how it's done in the traditional world where it's like, this is just how it should be and you're springing it on to. Yeah, yeah, great question. So essentially, the way we come up with it is really an intersection of like three experiences or observations. One is our first company where we learned a lot about, you know, I mean, my co-founder of that business is something of a financial genius. And we explored thoroughly risk and how the risk can kind of relate to a matching engine. So, and then also again, like, and sort of architecturally, the relationship between the, like, why doing things fully on chain actually allows users to make more money. I can get into that. It has to do with like, atomic execution and, you know, looking at like, state change, post execution state. But that's like the first experience. Okay, second experience. Traditional markets is way more capital efficient. And what's interesting is, and what's really exciting is that you have these financial relationships and traditional markets that we're describing here. None of this is new. This is all being done. And, you know, highly likely to ask that's in the traditional world. What is new relative to the traditional world is you can't do everything in one place, typically due to regulation. Regulation being there largely for a number of reasons, but larger to prevent conflicts of interest and manipulation that can occur when all of these functions are in one place. And so, doing things fully on chain allows us to credibly solve the conflicts of interest, as well as, you know, and prevent manipulation and transparency, etc. Which the traditional world for the last 2000 years of financial history does never have been an option. So that's super exciting for us. And it's also why we anticipate listing, you know, effects and R2B raise that are highly traded, uh, management crypto. Okay. I think that makes it so from my understanding, this exists in Trat5, but in Trat5 mainly exists in different venues, but they're able to do it because they have legal repercussions in crypto. You don't have legal repercussions, so you have to bring everything under one hood. Like you can't go under collateralized lending and withdraw the assets that you buy on spot, but, you know, have conflicts of interest, so you're able to bring everything under one hood and make it work. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's that's the core of it. We can avoid the those sort of inherent problems of traditional markets. There's other, there's also like settlement and you know, how markets form like as you know, broker-dee or kind brokers exchanges overlay to each other can start. I'll skip the rabbit hole, but you're correct. It's a mental. And then fixed rates, you mentioned that it's annoying to have variable rates. Can you talk a bit more about that? Like why you guys feel fixed days and why 10 days? Yeah. So the duration is a little arbitrary. It could have been two weeks, it could have been a month, but we think 10 days is appropriate just from our own experience trading. And I mean most of the experiences and the decisions that come in design the exchange come from our own experience running a hedge fund. So like, and the nature of our fund is unique, it's not like we want we run sort of a single strategy where we come to the office every day and figure out how to make it fast or how to make it smarter. We actually force like every professional trading team in the industry or at least as many as we possibly can. I think we probably know maybe nothing most but close to a number of trading teams. And we do diligence their strategies and then construct portfolios where we kind of pick a little bit from each one so you're the best of each team allocate that all runs in our infrastructure. So we also see a retrain and with that knowledge have a lot of views on how to design a venue. So one of the biggest problems is particularly if you have any size and you're in D5, D5 is primarily healed. And we can get into like the you know the market structure and the market and microstructure. But if you're a borrower lender, usually you're like you know looping yield and that's kind of like you know other than MEV what people do want to gain. If you use a pool like AVE or Morpho or frankly like any lending protocol today almost then the because it's a literal pool the rate is determined based on the quantity of A or a quantity of B in the pool right kind of quote unquote supply demand. This creates a major issue because let's say that you you know either due to manipulation which happens all the time and I can explain why or due to like just kind of you know the market structure or poor liquidity you can often in your looping right borrow. Like typically you put in a token you borrow a bunch of another token and then stick it to something else that borrowing rate can go from my 3% to 100% overnight. And it can do that because either it's very low liquidity and so that's just like a natural market force or because you know launching data public somebody sees that you're in that position and that is very hard for you to unwind. And if they can spike the rate on you then they know they can get paid like for that duration and so it's actually an incentive to kind of screw people over and the pools are not designed to prevent that really at all. But you guys are going with an order book model right and not a flyer. That's right. You can't do a cool one. Are you working with AVE on or is it a separate order book model? Totally separate. Yeah so we know they have on team like those guys are great but our protocols don't have any kind of connection. Okay that's fair. Let's get into the ADL bit or specifically the know ADL bit. I don't understand ADL enough to have a very strong opinion on this. I know the very big thing a couple of months ago in October, October, right? 10, 10. Yeah, October 10. Do you kind of want to talk a bit about maybe give us like a cursory overview of ADL and then why you guys decided not to go with it? And I would love like a take on why you think a people exchanges using ADL are you can get creative on that if you don't like it. I think they're shit like up to you, but like any. So so ADL was really interesting about about this ADL feature is that it's been around for a very long time. But until very recently, nobody had heard of it. I mean, obviously professional traders know what it is and talk about all the time. But in terms of Twitter and retail and kind of within the broader, you know, new cycle, there's been almost no mention of it. And the reason it's now talked about so much in my view is because it's this most obvious like data point or the uniation between the casino and in exchange, it highlights that dichotomy. And when you look into it, you know, you think, okay, wait a minute, like there is not an exchange on the planet at least not to my knowledge. For any asset class outside of crypto, where the exchange can take over your position at will arbitrarily and close it not only when they want to, but at what price they want to. The only institution that I'm aware of that does this is a casino. And so traditional markets over the last several hundred years or a thousand years have evolved for exchanges to become increasingly trustworthy. Right? Like integrity is potentially the single most important feature of any large financial market. Right? So ADLs highlight that. All right, I'll pause there for kind of why I think ADLs have come to the picture recently and can get into sort of the technical details if maybe you like that. Now I think that makes sense. I also think in crypto, people like to find something when they lose money, but I get your point. So in tradfly, we don't really have, I mean, there's no ADL mechanism. How does, I mean, I guess how does it work? So in crypto, we have ADL and then outside of crypto, what is the so that the exchange doesn't incur bad that it's not a thing, I guess. Right, right. So the first thing is that it's actually not necessary, which really makes you wonder kind of like what the heck is going on, right? So the way it works in traditional markets is you have an exchange and obviously like different exchanges have sort of different, you know, like very nuanced details. What's going on? And people match. Okay. That's all the exchange does. So where you get into kind of like something akin to ADL territory, if you were to ask, you know, by an answer or hyperlipwood, well, why do you have ADL? So I wonder is this happened? The answer is if one side of the market can't pay the other side of the market or one user can't pay another user because the price has moved too quickly, that in order to avoid the exchange incurring debt, we need to forcefully close out, you know, the side of the market that's winning so that they can then pay the side, you know, the losing side can still afford to pay. The way this actually works in traditional markets is that function of like credit worthiness is owned by a clearinghouse. So the clearinghouse is typically owned by members who contribute like their own capital as collateral and then the members, the sort of people who are employed by the clearinghouse are, you know, maybe like delegates or functional members of the clearinghouse, they settle with each other and essentially like, you know, work out and avoid these kind of problems and usually the simplest, you know, solution is just that one, things are a long more capital efficient so it's not just like isolated margin all the time and two, you like as the market moves, your margin account is updated like immediately. So, you know, you're having to like repose collateral one like your credit is being adjusted and there's all very transparent and this people have been doing for a very long time. But you don't need adls because you actually know everything on shame. So I can talk about how we do it and how we avoid those risks but then I was going to be my next question. The fundamental problem that we see is the exchange should never take over your position. There's there's liquidation which is when you can't pay your, you know, that's a different story. You need to get liquidated. But if you're winning, like what, you know, it doesn't make any sense. So the core problem with the exchange taking your view of your position is that it leads to what's happened at Binance and OKX and buy a bid in hyperlipwood, which is they all now run internal trading tasks. Hyperlipwood is way more transparent about it and so like they get a lot of credit for, you know, being kind of groundbreaking in that way. But you're very, in a very real sense trading against the house. And these trading desks for a lot of these exchanges and all their history was actually what generated a substantial portion of the revenue, not trading fees, right? It's literally the casino. So that like the casino starts when the exchange is allowed to control your positions right at at its will. The way to avoid that is for counter parties to always be bilateral. So and for risk to be sort of scoped on a bilateral basis. So let's say that you're long and I'm short and the market goes way up, right? Now you're winning and I'm losing. It goes up so quickly that I can't pay you. What should happen if that scenario happens and that scenario that scenario really shouldn't have an all-train Y. But if it does happen, then the the loss IE I can't pay you that loss is written off by US My Counter Party and by you alone. Okay. So instead of making a hundred dollars, you would have made eighty dollars, which is bad, right? This is this is a terrible scenario. But it's not sort of socialized amongst like all participants. And the traders have the ability to actually control who their counterparty is. So let's say that I think that you're taking too much risk. I can actually switch my counterparty on this on this first position. And let me then go into what I mean by taking too much risk specifically and why this scenario shouldn't happen on world. It is possible, but it should be very rare at a minimum. So remember for ADLs, the exchanges can unwind your positions when and at what price they want. Right? It's literally like their discretion on trying to. The risk parameters on world, which effectively determine leverage and how much of asset you can hold and you know, you're sort of margin consumption, right? We should determine counter party risk. Those parameters are all fully on chain and fully transparent. And so two things happen due to that. One, because there's perfect information symmetry between the exchange operators and the traders, those values should actually kind of adjust for an equilibrium, which is optimal. That's the first thing. The second thing is that let's say that you don't agree with us that you think like, yeah, these guys are idiots like we think the east, you know, stats are just way too risky, right? Then you can actually avoid you have some you have just some discretion to avoid taking having counter parties who hold a lot of East Perps. And so that's how you this works on world. Okay. I think that's all instead of socializing it, because with social rising, I guess the exchange can do nefarious things and get away with it potentially. You enter people into, are you worried that there might be some additional complexity on the UX side or is this not something that or are you guys off is getting it enough? It's it's obvious. Like if you go to the UI, like none of that none of that stuff is, you know, you don't interact with it. And why should you like really drill down and then you can. But you I mean, if you think about ADLs like there isn't, you know, your position just disappears and it says like like auto-dealer range, that's the whole UX. So. - Okay. - We tried to really get it. - Okay, I wanna, I wanna dive a bit into the GTM side. Specifically, how many markets do you guys have listed currently and how many, I guess, what's the listing strategy going to look like? I, you mentioned FX and real world assets, which I assume is a big thing, but do you guys wanna chat a bit about that? - Yeah, so, probably speaking, we list major hydro-liquid assets. We, one of the reasons that is, is you can think of it as like a disadvantage or kind of, a structural advantage depending on how you wanna, you know, look at it, but. One of the reasons that other exchanges cannot so easily just like create universal margin, is because the good market, I mean, hyperliquid, this was hyperliquid's good market. And then I think there's like a whiteboard and lighters office that says like, copy hyperliquid zero fees and that's sort of all the furniture. So, and inherently, then it's lighters good market. But the good market was. List, like list assets quickly, right? That people wanna trade, they can't get anywhere else. And so when your first to list, users come. And even if users don't trade those assets for very long time, they stay on the exchange. And that strategy did exceptionally well, right? Like in the centralized exchanges, it actually worked very similar way, but have obviously been kind of so to less than hyperliquid now. The problem with that is if you wanna do, if you wanna have like great capital efficiency and universal margin, you actually can't allow users to take super high leverage on this like really long tail stuff. Because it will introduce kind of party risks to everybody else on the exchange. And so there is a sort of structurally different approach here where you choose to either go like to really high quality asset route or they're like fast listing asset route. Now, you can do a little bit of both, right? I'm sure that you'll kind of see us do new or some new assets on hyperliquid improve their capital efficiency. But a big picture, it's like for a cross-eye crypto and you know, commercial markets, where we see, and I'd say the really big driver, maybe the biggest driver is when we list something, we have a view on how traders are gonna use it. We don't like just the list shits and then think the market will show up. And we have this view because we know what people do and work with them on the trading side. And so there are a heck of a lot of trades that would make a lot more money for essentially no additional financial risk. If the capital efficiency was good, if the exchange is worth properly designed. And so that's kind of where we focus. - I think that makes sense. Maybe less retail and more people who are trying to run the strategies that they cannot right now, on tune. - So yeah, there are two user groups. One is institutional and for the stuff I've been talking about on this podcast, like that's the value proposition. The value proposition is very clear. They understand these nuances. For retail, there are kind of two parts to this good market, two to three parts. One is mega-thiko system. And that's really like the kind of, the first and the earliest retail good market, which is obviously, you know, we think we're gonna do exceptionally well in the coming months, coming quarter. Okay, two is everybody, you, me, your mother, my mother, wants to make more money, right? And wants to make more money safely. Like if you go to the grocery store to buy milk, you don't wanna get mugged. Like you're gonna go to the grocery store that has a less chance of you getting mugged when you buy milk. It's universal and it's forever, right? So safety is, and I think retail users, have an understanding of that intuitively, when they do the research and when they kind of understand the differences between being on chain knot, et cetera. All right, so make more money for less risk. That's the number two for retail. Thing number three is the way that markets have, traditional markets have evolved. There's not the way crypto works, but I have, I do think crypto will kind of evolve in this direction. Although perhaps it would have been different than traditional markets have evolved. Exchange is like one question I like to ask people is what is NASDAQ's UI look like? You know, what about the New York style exchange? All right, like exchanges have evolved to be a fundamentally institutional business. And part of the reason is because to benefit the institutional side of things, it adds complexity that retail generally doesn't want. And you also, you know, working with institutions will allow it kind of gives you, it's not just complexity, but economies of scale, et cetera, et cetera. And so retail is enserved by, you know, dealers, burger dealers, et cetera, retail aggregators. And this is interestingly, now what we've seen crypto historically. Although I think that's largely because the things, the apps that did this blew up, Celsius, right, block five, et cetera. But we are a thing that happened on Meg-Eath. And I think that we will see this happen more so as kind of DeFi and the industry evolved. Where apps that, you know, face retail are hyper focused on servicing retail, right? We're talking about, so hit one is really a perfect example, you know, 1,000 X leverage. Like there is no exchange on earth that it's going to offer you 1,000 X leverage, right? That is also servicing institutional clients. Not gonna happen. You know, it's built as like an arcade finance, like, you know, so they, but hit one is an institution. And they think and they operate like an institution and they trade on both markets. And so that brings retail flow. I am in terms of kind of slightly related to this, are you worried about USDM being the asset that people are going to create instead of USDC or USDT? - Yeah, that's a great question. So I would say that there are kind of two parts that it's fundamentally is not a concern, but it is something to monitor. And what I mean by that is USDM is backed by, you know, very stable assets, to my knowledge. I don't own it or control it, obviously, but it's backed by treasury bills, right? And so as long as the pipes are clean, the dependencies are clean, it has a fund administrator or Anchorage, and it is, you know, managed in a kind of traditional in a first congested way. So that as long as all that, you know, stays clean and as we expect, then really it's, you know, a wrapper of treasury bills and obviously nobody has a problem with that. Every institution on the planet, in probably a lot of retail, is going to be sensitive to a new stable point. And people don't like new stable points, right? It's like it's only downside. So, you know, George Soros, et cetera. So there's going to be a kind of initial hesitation that needs to be addressed with the market. And to kind of ignore that, I think would, would, you know, not be especially wise, but it's easily solved with, you know, transparent monitoring and reporting and, you know, how kind of like everything in Trojan marches to solve. And so, yeah, I think as long as, and obviously Megeth has, you know, to my knowledge, like full intention to do that. And everybody's aligned in terms of interest so that making this very stable. And it allows Megeth to operate sequencer at cost, right? So it creates incentive alignment, which otherwise wouldn't be there. And is kind of a net benefit to the apps and the traders and, you know, the users and ecosystem. It just requires your monitoring and transparency. - Yeah, but no, I guess I have two more questions before we wrap things up. I guess one of them that's kind of a wrap up question. The first one is, what is the next big thing for you guys like over the next, I usually say six to 12 months, but I feel like you're, I don't wanna do six to 12 months because you guys are relatively early. So let's do like three, two, one. what is the big thing that you guys are, you would want for listeners to do or have as a takeaway or try out. - Yeah, so the Meggy ecosystem is gonna be coming online in this time. It's hard building an ecosystem and it's hard building the apps. We're starting to see, I would say the end of the beginning, right? Where the apps are us included, shipping final updates are gonna allow users to, it's not gonna be a perfect experience, but it's gonna be a good experience and users will be able to see the value and grow the ecosystem as we like continue to improve. And you're gonna see that for a large number of, you know, maybe eight projects. So that's super exciting. And I think being the ecosystem paying attention to that is gonna be the thing to do right now we're in a bear market. But if you look at like the best investments of the last 50 to 100 years, right? Since like 1920, the very best investments were made at the bottom of the bear market, across asset classes and across time, right? So if you wanna set yourself up for a success, I think the thing to do is pay attention to the Meggy ecosystem so that when the next bull market comes, you know, you've put in the time and the work and accumulated whatever's points or the experience and and commoditize that. So that's one, two, vault. What I am super excited about is essentially marrying what we did in the fund and what we are doing with world. If you look at the vaults of like lighter, hyperliquid, you know, et cetera, and even just what you have in DeFi today, more foe, yada yada. These vaults are limited. Obviously hyperliquid and lighter performed exceptionally well. But kind of limited to like single strategies, oftentimes without inability to scale without like, you know, their terms decreasing. And so, you know, the capacity constraints, et cetera. What we're doing is our vault will source trading teams across the industry. We'll pick the best. And these trading teams will compete for capital and fees with the returns being passed on to the depositors. And because this is like real DeFi, and not what I call pretend fi, which is centralized exchanges, calling themselves decentralized exchanges, you can actually take that vault token and stick it wherever you want. You want to leverage it up on more foe, right? Like be my guest. You want to stick it back in the exchange using the death collateral? That's also an option. So I'm super excited about that because I think the yield coming from the pro trading teams are able to take advantage of all these nuances of the exchange. I think that's going to be a super sexy. Yeah, I think that because are you using anybody for the vault infrastructure? Is it being built in house? - We're potentially going to work with enzyme as a partner that's sort of who we're thinking about at the moment. There's this vault is able to actually trade outside of world but can also in order to take advantage of our recharge opportunities, but fully on chain, our early self-foil on taxes and on chain. And so it has a lot of infrastructure that is, it's a relatively complex infrastructure. It also uses you for your security. - Yeah, that makes it. My last question is for her, which is how he got involved in world markets because he hasn't spoken the whole day. I don't want to give him that. - Finally, finally, I'm back, I'm back, oh my God. Yeah, sort of like the way I got involved was funny enough was through my old boss and Kevin, who's like another co-founder at world markets. And Kevin just randomly DMed me on Telegram. He was like, 'cause he got my app through my old boss and Kevin was like, what are you doing? And I'm like, nothing, just like fun employed trading, right? Just, I don't know, just trying to like, seize as much money from the more I guess possible through trading. And he was like, you're a man, I'm building something cool. I want you to be a part of it. And I'm like, what are you building, right? I'm like, is it just another Perp Dex? And he's like, no, the pitch was, this is like the end game for Perp Dex, right? This is like the final evolution of what financial like markets should look like on chain. And I'm like, okay, yeah, this is really cool, right? And I'm like, has anybody done this before? And he's like, nope. And I'm like, who else is on the team? He's like, we have Lucas, we have another person, Mo. And there's a small team. And he's like, we're trying to just try to build up like the best frickin' exchange possible. I'm like, I want to be a part of it. And lo and behold, I'm like the dog that's helping build the world markets. - Very good, very, very good. - One thing I want to mention kind of on the back of what her set is, a bit more context about the team very briefly. So there's one individual who I don't talk about enough on these things, and that's Mo. So Mo is, Mo has been writing code for 40 years. And is, I mean, I talk about these things because I have a pretty face. But I'm like five foot seven, by the way, so I'm making it, but. (laughs) It makes like nothing with the ladies, but. So, these ideas really come from Mo. He's kind of the, I don't wanna talk about too much, but he's kind of like the brainchild and genius, if you will, of understanding what's actually in the market today having the traditional market experience. And being able to synthesize this in a way that's architecturally robust. And that is a very, very hard problem to solve. And the reason that we have a lot of confidence in sort of our moat and you value is because the only way to solve it, you can't hire like 10,000 physicists and solve like, you know, special relativity, right? Like it doesn't matter how many physicists you have, it doesn't give you nine seconds. You need that like one person to sit in a dark room for however many years, and just like pen and paper, you know, think like one step to the next. And that's no. So, you know, he kind of deserves all the credit here to be honest. And then we recently brought on at Gareth, as our COO, so Gareth went to Harvard Law was a 20 for a long time, New York regular year. And then was Andrew Cuomo, the government of New York's kind of right-hand guy. I don't know if he would, I mean to say that, like that's exactly, but, Rand is PR and you know, is COVID campaign and incredibly talented. And then there's Tourage, you know, and Kevin MacCovid on the PD side as well. - Very good, well massive shout out to Moe, as well as the rest of the team. I'm going to give, we'll put these in the shout outs as well, but I think most people should know her. She has a bit too many followers, but it's at Teddy Rostracker, markets are really as Lucas is 0x Larbist, and of course, follow World Markets Inc at World Markets Inc and make sure to check them out on Twitter as well. Guys, I really appreciate you taking the time to come on today and chat. - Thank you, man. - We appreciate it. - Thank you, thank you. (upbeat music)