Build Your Own Table: Risk, Reinvention & Going Forward: Michelle Miller

(upbeat music) Thank you for listening to Farocious Ambition. This is your hostess Monica Dominic. And today's guest is really proof that where you start does not define where you end up. Michelle Miller is the founder of Creative 8. It is a creative advertising agency that really helps brands grow with strategicity. Strategicity. (laughing) With strategies, sorry, clarity and serious intention. But what's fascinating about Michelle, to me, isn't just the company she's built, it's the life that you have built specifically. Michelle grew up in a men and a night community, in a world with very, very clear expectations, structure and limitations that are set. And somehow she turned that foundation into something completely different and a life where she's leading a company, traveling across the country, stepping on to stages and expanding her voice in a way that most people never even attempt and doing all of that with expectations, structure and limitations. So to me, it's a fascinating area that I can't wait to cover. She is now a sought after speaker and entrepreneur who's figured out really just not how to run a business, but to grow a presence and create a brand. So this is gonna be one hell of a conversation, you guys. And today we're gonna unpack all of that. The transition, the mindset shifts, the risks that you had to take, and what it really takes to go from a vision of your life into something entirely new. So Michelle, welcome to Perotia's Ambition. - Thank you so much for having me, Monica. So happy to be here. - It's gonna be here. It's gonna be a great conversation. And like I always tell all of my, my interviews, I'm gonna take you back to the beginning or you're gonna take me back to the beginning. And I really don't care where we start, but I do wanna say before we get into creative eight and everything that you're building now, I really wanna start at the beginning because I think it's fascinating. I don't know much about the men and night community. I don't know much other than, you know, what I saw on the Amish Mafia. Which, you know, let's face it is, it's all true. I'm sure-- - Oh, 100% with Levin on Lima, I'm sure. It's on TV and it's on the internet. So it's gotta be true, right? - Of course. - But I really want to know what it was like growing up in that environment. And at what point did you really start thinking like you wanted something different? So you don't have to answer that question right now, but that's where I'm gonna go. So you take me back to where you want to. - I mean, that's a big question to start with. So, let's start smaller. - We'll start small. - I was born in Ohio. - Actually, I was born in Worcester, Ohio. So what's really interesting is actually, if you go back and say where do you want to start in terms of the business journey, truly all the way at the beginning is where to start. Even generations before me, my grandparents had, my grandpa, my dad's dad had a, always had his own business. My dad always had his own business. See, my mom had her business. - As men and I? - As men and I, yes. And so I come from a family of entrepreneurs. And it's been interesting that wasn't necessarily something that was emphasized or pushed growing up, but all of our dinner time conversations were around what was going on in the business and what was happening with the business. My parents were even in business together for the majority of, they just unwound their last business about a year and a half ago. And my dad always ran the operations and my mom ran the books. So whether he had a trucking business at one point, wholesale mill work, he had their bioblock business at the very end, I mean, and everything in the middle, rental properties, they ran everything together, which is amazing to me. - And they're still married. They've been married for 40 years. - Ooh. - So yeah. - For that. - I know, I know. - It's divorced prevalent in the men and night community. (laughing) - That's funny. - I'm joking. - But I'm not, I'm just kidding, but seriously. No, it's, it's interesting, my parents are still together and they're still, they spend all their days together and all their time together. And so I grew up with a great example, a very solid sound family structure, which was a big deal now. I look back at that and it's not something I take for granted. I think the older I get to and the more I just see what happens in the world, I just don't take that for granted. So I feel very lucky. I have siblings, I am the oldest of three. So, and I, if you look at a, one of those books, like the birth order books, and you read about all the traits of an oldest child, especially an oldest daughter, I'm a hundred percent textbook, oldest child. And then my brother is almost two years younger than me and then my sister's five years younger than me. So, I'm the oldest of three. - Wow. - And do your siblings also have the entrepreneurial spirit? - They do. - Which is really interesting. We've all taken our own journeys with it. So I graduated from Mountain Union for undergrad and I was the first of us three to get a undergrad degree, of course, I'm the oldest. And then I went back to grad school and I got my MBA from Case Western. My brother had a slightly different journey. He started out working for Caterpillar and worked on their equipment. And he went to technical high school, like the, whatever it's called, the technical schools. And then he ended up going back to Kent State and getting his aviation degree. He's now a captain for United. - Wow. - Which is crazy, but captain's don't work as much as you might think. He might kill me for saying that. But so on his free time, he has, I forget how many right now, five duplexes that he manages, property manages, owns. He loves doing that. So that's what he does in his spare time. And then my sister, and becoming a nurse practitioner, and she has a nutrition company. So she does a lot of coaching, especially now for a lot of women and mothers. That's her, that's her niche. And she's a mom herself. She's married and has four kids. - That's amazing. - Yeah, we all kind of got that bug, I guess. Like I said, it was never anything that was just pushed. It was just an environment we were growing up, we grew up around in. And then even when I started working, I treated every job and every budget I was ever given from a marketing perspective as if it was my own. So because that's, I didn't know anything else. It was never someone else's money, it was always, this is my money and I need to spend it wisely. So that was a really core philosophy. - I think that's so valid too, because I know that I always, no matter where I was in my career, I always tried to look at things as a business owner. As I was the entrepreneur, I also grew up in an entrepreneur home. So my mom was an entrepreneur and then my dad quit his job to join forces with her. But a lot of that was around, like you've just learned to walk with integrity. You look like you're not wasting money. Every dollar earned is a dollar earned and a dollar spent is still a dollar that you had to earn before you could spend it. So I appreciate that. Growing up though, I wanna go back a bit to the Mennonite stuff for those who don't know, for all my listeners who are in other states. We have a very large population in Ohio of the Amish and Mennonites are closely related, right? - Yes. - Can you high level, 'cause I don't wanna talk about this much, but just so people can understand, eventually when we get into the juxtaposition to you being and creative eight, and owning creative eight and what your whole industry is, so often people hear Mennonite and they automatically think Amish. And then when you automatically think Amish, you think no running water, no, so no plumbing, no electricity, no car driving, no colors, no, you think of all of these very rigid rules, and that's not quite what Mennonite is, right? So can you give us just a high level of what that, if you don't mind, of what that difference is from the perceived notion that I'm sure you get a lot of people who are like, oh, you drove a buggy to school? Well, nope, you didn't. Or did you, wait a minute, maybe you did. So like you probably hear that a lot though. I was like, oh, so yeah, did you make your own shoes and drive a buggy? And no, that's like they're very different, but it also is not traditional. Yeah, I went to Westerville, South High School, and went to all of these crazy ragers, so like where's the middle ground? Can you explain that a little? Sure, sometimes I will freak people out and be like, do you wanna come over and turn butter with me, 'cause that's what I'm doing on my-- Yes, I make my own butter. I make my own butter, I sure do. That's awesome. See, you're looking at you being a butter churner. You're not even, but at night. Well, and by churning, I mean, I, of course, he's my, not my food processor, my sand mixer. Oh, I make my butter, so it turns it for me, but yeah. Okay, see, you're making some compounds. Make my own bread. Oh, okay, that I can get on board with. My sister got on the sourdough trend during COVID, and I was not mad about that, getting fresh sourdough. Yeah. So my sourdough, my starter is named John Levend, like John Levend and my pizza oven is named the crusty Tegan. What's that one for? Well, 'cause crusty Tegan is John Levend's wife. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, and fun fact, and then we'll get back to you. But my pizza oven was a gift from a friend of mine who actually regifted it to me and crusty Tegan and John Levend gave it to her. No way. So the pizza oven that I have is I like to say, it is a gift directly to me from John and Chrissy, but they know about it. So can we told them, can we told them she was like, I tried making a pizza and I caught the thing on fire so then I gave it to Monica. So they know that now that she's even showed them, I have a sign, like a friend's fabricated sign out of steel and it's mounted to my my pizza oven and it says the crusty Tegan. You can never get rid of that now. I'm gonna put a picture of this in the show, Yes, just so that you guys can see the crusty tea and then my John Levin. These show notes, by the way, are going to be wild, because my shows go everywhere. I would love it. I love it, because my people, they're just, we're all over the place. - Yes, all right, back to you. - That's what's back to me. - Did you eat pizza? Did you eat pizza growing up? - Yes, we ate all the normal things. I wore all the normal clothes. If you passed me on the street, you'd never know I'm men and I didn't wear the prayer cover or anything like that. So three out of my four grandparents left the Amish church. And so what happens is when you leave the Amish church, usually, a lot of them will go to conservative men and I, which are those are the ones that still drive the darker colored vehicles, and they sit men on one side and women on the other side in church, and they'll wear the prayer coverings. So like my grandma wore, my grandma Miller wore the prayer coverings until she died, but went to the same then regular men and I church that we went to growing up. And so basically, the biggest thing that separates men and I from other denominations of beliefs is their strong stance on pacifism. So they were all the conscientious objectors during World War II. So they're very into peace. They love peace, pray for peace, all of that. And so can we have men and I it's running our country right now? - We could use a little more peace. - I think we could. - Sometimes. - I would lessen from all of it. This is totally not political at all. Right wing, left wing, or middle wing, and don't matter. - Yeah, good. - Well, but my biggest thing is that the Bible says there's a time for war and a time for peace straight up. So for me, that was very much where I was like, well, I love a lot of the core beliefs that they have and I believe that should be a goal. However, it's a time for war and a time for peace. - I think the mom is in the pop is also saying that. - Really? I'm not joking. There really was. There was a song. - Oh my gosh. - Oh my gosh. - Yeah, there's, it was on the Forest Cump soundtrack. - Oh, I'll have to rewatch Forest Cump, then I end up listening to that. Yeah, thank you. Show notes. - Show notes. Show notes. - Yeah, so that's, so I grew up that way and I joined the men and I church when I was 14. And my family went there growing up and then, yeah. So I think those are the biggest differences. My dad did grow up speaking Pennsylvania Dutch. So that's how the Amish dialect. So it's like a choppy butchered form of German. So like instead of how are you, it's bebish due or dubish for short. So still mad at him for not teaching me that because that would have been really handy. It does still freak Amish people out if I walk up to them in public or I see them in an airport. Or if I'll go into one of their businesses and I just walk in them like bebish due. They're like, what? - What? - Yeah, I'm going to need a blue collar dress right now, but I don't usually look like I blend in. - I need you to teach me very properly later how to do that. And when I'm in like my hot pink and glitter keels, I'm going to make sure to walk into dirt Dutchman and say bebish due. - bebish due. - Yes, bebish due. How are you? Yeah, that's the formal version of it. So there's some little things like that. But it's cool. I'll hear my dad in his business. He used to deal with a lot of Amish. Companies, so it'd be cool to listen to him talk Dutch. And yeah, it's so wish something I wish he would have taught me more of. - Yeah. - So yeah, that's really cool. - That's how I grew up. I grew up in a very, very traditional conservative upbringing. - And I find it interesting. So I grew up and very, my family was immigrants. One side from Italy, one side from Ireland. And they refused to teach the, I'm a second generation. And my dad, first generation on the Italian side, his mother came over as a kid. And when they came over, the grandparents, so my great grandparents refused to let their children speak Italian. - Wow. - And it was because you were, it was back then, when they came over, it was like you were the flea bottoms. The Italians, the Italian immigrants were the back then, the worst to the worst. So they got relegated to like northern Minnesota and to work in the iron ranges. And I came from a wine producing family and regions and farmers and stuff. But anyway, I say all that to say it doesn't surprise me that he didn't teach you that because the older generations like that, it was this notion of like, no, you have to be like true American, true. You know, whatever. And like it's only English, proper English. And that's what you're going to learn. And I think it's a beautiful thing that we've gotten to a point now where we appreciate and celebrate where we came from. I think that's a huge thing. Even I dove into it a couple of years ago. I got on online and started to trace some of my roots in my ancestry. And I was able to go into a church in Switzerland that my, you know, seventh great grandfather or something helped rebuild in like the 1400s is wild. And I got to see our name on a tablo in the sanctuary. And I look at that. It's so, I think it's just so cool now. And I love hearing about people's backgrounds and especially their ancestry and their heritage. I love my Italian friends. Yeah, we're pretty honest. I can't eat pasta better than whatever my Italian friends will cook for me. So no, I love that. Okay, so that's, that's you're growing up and then your college. What made you say, you know what? I'm going to go on my own and grow. You, you do it. Creativate. So like at any point we can get into that. But I want to know. Talk to us about those steps from all right. So you finish college. When and when did you start either working in advertising or even before? What was it that gave you this, this entrepreneurial, I know you were raised with it. But what gave you that hit of like now? I'm going to, you know, I started scooping ice cream. That was my first job. What was your first job? Yeah. Oh gosh, my first job was, I think I babysat. My first official job was, I was a hostess at a restaurant called the Barn Restaurant in Smithville, Ohio. Ironically, we wore dresses that were platter floral with little lace around the edges. That's true. And aprons and people would ask where Amish all the time, which was pretty funny, given my background. And it's not an Amish establishment. But anyways, so that was where I started to work. And then, but it really goes back even before that. Like when I was a kid for fun, I used to have businesses. I sold lemonade, of course. But then I also had golf balls. I used to clean golf balls and put them in egg cartons. I sold, I want to make these little homemade flags and put them on sticks because we were out of lemonade. You know, it's innovation comes from lack of her scarcity of something, right? What else did I sell phone numbers? That's a story. We were also out of lemonade. So I took open the phone book and just started to oh my god, phone numbers to people. And I sell you a number that you can get for free. For free? Yeah. Didn't know about that at the time when I was like seven years old. But so I really started with that. And even I had a library. I had a paper airplane museum. And I was always trying to charge my family, you know, 50 cents to come in and see whatever creation I'd put together. So that was just how I grew up. I just really loved it. I was always dreamed of having a business. But then when I started to look at colleges and trying to figure out my degree, I actually looked at nuclear medical technology as a degree from the University of Finley. But then I realized that's really, really narrow. It's stress tests and hospitals. And I wanted something a little more creative than that. And so that's how I ended up in business as a degree. And then started working in corporate because I thought that's what you do. Or I needed to do in order to be successful. And I look back now, it never really felt authentically me. I always felt like I was kind of in a box. And I didn't, I wasn't able to put my finger on it entirely as to why. I had different types of businesses and backgrounds that I worked in, everything from healthcare to manufacturing and all kinds of other stuff. But it just never quite felt like it was the right fit. And it was actually when I left, the company I was at in 2018. That was the first time I ever kicked around the idea of starting a company. But I was in my, just finished my MBA, I was in my late 20s. And at a mortgage, how I get my healthcare, how I pay for things, how I just, it didn't feel like I could, like realistically. So I went and worked at another job. And pretty much cried every day going to and from it. Oh, was that thing like the enterprise corporate level? Oh yeah, it was the most ultra corporate, great experience. Wonderful people, just not a good fit for me. I ran, I built up the marketing division of the second largest division of a $2.3 billion publicly traded company. So it was a great experience. I learned a lot, but I felt like my soul was leaving my body every day because it just wasn't a good fit for me. So you listen to podcasts going to and from work about people who'd started their businesses or business advice or entrepreneurship or solo entrepreneurship and all that other stuff. And so I left there and then started to work for another company. And I was like, I can't, I can't do this anymore. Like I have one option. I have to go do what I know. I've kicked around doing for five years and never had the courage to do. I have to do it. I have to give it a shot. So I ran all the numbers and kind of figured out what it is that I needed to do to make ends meet. I started working with a mindset coach and finally pulled the trigger in May. It was May 1st of 2021. So it'll be five years, uh, almost next month. Yeah. And you started by yourself. Mm-hmm. Yep. I mean, how many employees now? We have eight total. Wow. Yeah. And offices, um, just in Columbus or in Worcester too. So we have a physical office in Worcester. But the rest of my team is remote. So we're in Ohio, New York, Massachusetts, South Carolina, Minnesota. Wow. Yeah. In Ohio. In Ohio. So tell us about, I mean, first of all, uh, and I don't want to skip over the formative years of from year one till what year was it that you hired your first employee. Uh, part time, it was a year after nine months after I started the company. I heard my first part timer and I hired my first full timer, uh, about a year and three months after. That's huge. And that wasn't my goal. I didn't say I'm going to go out and let's start a company, big company. I really just wanted to do some consulting work and pay my bills. And I thought my, I may have been burned out on marketing entirely, but then I figured out was the environment. And I was in that I was burned out on not the craft itself. So yeah, I started out as a consultant and then it really just started it. you know, it takes a little bit to iterate a business too to figure out like, what's the sweet spot? And where do we serve really well and all of that to finally get to where we are today? Well, but uh, and just from a, uh, person who's much older. You're not much older than me, but that's fine. I'm, yeah. You're all 29. Oh, no, I'm not. Anyway, um, but to do all of that to get where you are, though, in five years, that's not a lot of time to, to like, to hire people and to be a year and a half in and actually hire a full-time person. Um, that's huge. And that, that to me speaks, and then the fact that you're still here now five years later, and you're still growing and you're still, you know, having clients and pushing out, um, girl, that's huge. That just doesn't happen. Well, thanks. It's, it's one of those things that I think if you start to look at the statistics and the odds, it's crushing. They're all stacked against you. I mean, all the stats that show any type of business, the odds of it failing by I think year two are extremely high. The odds of making it to your five are even more rare and slim. So it's not lost on me of what a blessing it is to be in this position that I'm in to have the team I have and have the clients that we get to serve. I mean, it is a huge blessing. I'll take it for granted. It's amazing, but I think, um, to those people out there who are in the working department or the working side and they're not the entrepreneurs, um, one thing I think that they don't understand that I always try to impart on anytime I take a stage, anytime I'm talking or being interviewed, um, is the amount of stress it puts on us to know that for me, you know, we have a hundred and thirty hundred to 160 employees. That's a lot of people that I have to worry about. So their families are on my my head. So going to bed at night is the did I make all of the right decisions that's going to benefit all of my employees. Not what's going to put money in my pocketbook, but now I have employees and it doesn't matter if you got a hundred and sixty if you've got, well, it probably does matter if you get up into the billions. I don't think that CEO necessarily cares, but, um, but definitely when you have one employee or you have eight employees, every decision you make, every email you miss or phone call you don't take or appointment you don't go on could equate to something that you're not doing for your employees or at least that's what we tell ourselves. That's such a good point. It's a heavy, heavy responsibility and I don't take it lightly because like you said, there's when you payroll like that everyone's families are counting on you being mentally sharp. Um, I don't always talk about this, but I got divorced two years ago. I was married for a short period of time for about two years and that was so hard because at the time I had two full time employees when I went through that in a part time when I went through that that period in my life. And for me to not be mentally sharp every day was excruciating. I drove myself nuts knowing that I had on my best days, I maybe had a third of what my brain function normally would have been if I wasn't going through that type of thing. So, you know, it just allows you to look at people with so much more grace of if you're going through something hard and it's empowered me to be more open about the struggles that you have because it's so easy to get on especially on LinkedIn, get on there and everything's perfect and wonderful and amazing and glowing and it's it's not that's not reality of what we're how we're living and so I try really hard to be authentic and open about how tough it is especially as a business owner it's one thing to start out as a consultant. There's pros and cons everything, right? Like it's tough to be a consultant because then the whole burden of the businesses on you and again, if you're having a foggy day no one's there to back you up. You want to go on vacation? Work's not going to get done. Then on the flip side you have a whole team and it's like now you have even more people that are relying on you. You can sometimes step away or go do other things and work will still get done but it's a heavier weight because you have all of these people that are now relying on you and to provide for them and their families. So it's you know entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart business ownerships not for the faint of heart. It absolutely is not. It's not. I want to go to asking you though a lot of what porosius ambition is and is about is overcoming the failures. Overcoming the nose that we get the busted up knees when you fall down but as an entrepreneur as you're saying it's not for the faint of heart it's not for the weak of heart but it's for the people who continually get up because we do fail all the time. I call it porosiusly failing because you have to I will fail in a flame of glory because I will take the risks as hard and as heavy as I can so that when I fail I'm failing far and I'm failing what feels like fast and brutal but in reality it's just because I pushed myself and I didn't I'd likely never fail a hundred percent. I may fail overall but what did I learn a long way and then what am I going to learn from it. Can you walk us through any points that you had to pick yourself back up and at time where you failed I'm one I'll say give us a time where you failed and two did anybody ever tell you you couldn't do it. Gosh I failed more times than I can count. I think a lot of it's about like you said picking yourself back up and learning the lessons along the way. I actually realized recently so growing up and I grew up in a very we swept things under the rug. We didn't really get out there and talk about them. So to start a business and not be good at having difficult conversations that was not a strength that I had and so I also had never owned and never even worked in an agency before I started one. I interned after my junior year of college and then so that was my experience as like a whopping three months of working at an agency. Never worked at one full time. Never done account management before. Client management I only ever worked on the client side which most of the time served me really well because then I could look at things through the client lens not through how an agency would look at things but sometimes that really hurt me. So I remember the first you lose the client turn is normal and sometimes people go in different directions or you know they they hired different resources internally. But I remember when I lost my first bigger retainer client it was right when I was going to think of through the thick of my divorce and I was crushed like absolutely crushed and I look back now and I realized I wasn't looking for signs of that they were that they were going in different direction that they were going to hire some different people internally. They were looking to basically get acquired eventually so they were trying to trim costs. I took it all very very very personally and that was really hard and I remember I couldn't sleep and I also was in the process of gain divorce so financially like that was not a great time for them to cut the cord and but now I learned so much from going through that experience of about mindset and I found out a little over a year later there was a lot more of that story of what was going on behind the scenes and what I was told that had nothing to do with me and I think there's so many times in life where we want to put things I'm a perfectionist I want the best always I want the most perfect outcome always and we put all this weight on ourselves that we don't necessarily have to carry and I look back now and I'm like I could have had different conversations I could have handled things differently I should have structured that retainer differently there were so many things I learned out of it that I've now been able to take and move forward and but when you start to go through some of those really awful lows of business then when they happen again you can take what you've learned and apply them again so even in sales I do all of our sales I get told no a lot and now I'm like all right it wasn't meant to be for some reason like it could have been they would have been a really bad fit as a client or they were you find out something later and you're like that would have been a really toxic client or that person wasn't a great person or whatever it was so now whenever I get told no I'm just like well all right that was not meant to be and that's okay onward and upward next so you have to go through some of those really nasty falls and to pick yourself back up again I mean that was a really low that was I remember is so clearly it was January over two years ago that was a low how could it not be I mean that's a low in life right but then as an entrepreneur guess what our business is our life and our life is is our business and as much as we try to balance out personal time failure's not an option so especially when you have employees so I appreciate that like you have to fail and again it sounds like you failed ferociously too yeah and I think a big part though is like when you can learn from it and you can say what could I have done better and you did and then it but you you probably wouldn't have learned that and you wouldn't have learned the flags to look for and you wouldn't have learned the also quite honestly as your business is growing then you know what the business owners are dealing with so if you know if one of their big clients just change the payment terms from 45 days to 90 days they're screwed right and now as a business owner with a growing business you understand what that looks like absolutely yeah there's especially around even the iterations of the services that we've offered and different areas of the business that have grown or not grown I'm in a constant state of learning as a business owner I don't think you ever get to sit back and be like well I've peaked I've learned all there is to know in the business exactly where it's going to be and it's in perfect condition there's always areas you're going to learn so we got into some new industries last year so I'm learning a ton about that I mean there's just there's always areas we're going to keep learning and if you're not learning anymore it's when you should be scared honestly If things aren't failing sometimes then you should be scared because you're not trying new things. Bingo, you're not trying and if you're not trying then you're getting in your own way. You're prohibiting your own growth. Yes. So we had a conversation just before we walked upstairs here to my studio. And I'm just going to bring this up because this is something few people are comfortable enough to talk about. So if you would just give us a little bit here on some of the hardness and how do I word this. We were talking about being a woman in business and you are a single woman in business right now. And some of the things I think that our counterparts are male counterparts no matter how supportive they are. And there's a million out there who are amazing don't realize when we're leaving an event and there's you know for example if it's a male who's hosting a whatever a meeting and there's four people. And one of them has to go home and the other one says yeah come back to my house for drinks and how easily the guys can do that or if it's girls like we can do that easily when it's girls. But how different it is when that's part of the business that's part of getting out there and closing new deals and how hard it is because we can't do that. It's so true and I never thought about it until I experienced it personally how many roadblocks you don't you just run into sometimes you don't even realize you're about to do it. That's such a good example of there's CEO that said oh yeah every time the sales rep comes into town we always go out to dinner and then we go back to my house and we grab you know bourbon I can't do that. And so it puts you at an automatic disadvantage I've always been really being a woman in business I never want to walk around with a chip on my shoulder. However I am also just aware of some of the limitations that we have sometimes that just we have to navigate situations differently. I have so many examples I could go through right now of times where I've been put in a situation as a few more business okay we'll just go into one of them last year. Not all wives are secure in their marriages and so a lot of men are out traveling and sometimes things happen on the road right it's very common I see it a lot however I'm a five foot eight bond female business owner. Bob shall for the record thank you and people though they if you are insecure female already and you meet me I've been told I can scare and intimidate people which is not not true at all. No not true not true but I mean I've had this was even this was 10 years ago what it happened to me the first time I met a vendor's spouse at a company all company picnic and we invited my vendor. And this spouse came and she walked up and she shoved her I'm like like in front of her husband like hi I'm you know whatever her name was I remember Jane yeah hi I'm Jane I was like hi I'm Michelle nice to meet you this is my husband I'm like yeah I know that your husband I've been working with your husband okay. And yeah and I mean the number of times I've been even previous even about four or five years ago I was it was a that clients hitting on you they absolutely are not hitting on me they asked how my day is yeah it's fine it's fine thank you last year I gotten I've got drug into a situation where apparently someone on the road and I don't know things that happened before and so then this spouse sees me engaging with them on LinkedIn or Facebook or whatever and they're like this woman's you know and then I get pulled into things and it's just it feels very I don't like stuff like that at all it's not a productive use of my time it's not a productive use of my energy or there is quite frankly and so I have to always I hate it but I always have to be a little bit mindful of how I present myself so I'm not automatically labeled something I'm not I think that's something I I had interviewed another girl woman a few months ago on here and she told me off air she didn't want to say this on air because of the the I don't want to say preconceived notion but the the label that it might place on her she will not drink at networking events or with anybody from work she won't do it even one drink if it's a fancy dinner she will tell them no I'm sorry I don't drink even though she does but she won't because the the and there's great guys that look I'm not blaming any guys out there this is not any bashing it's just I want the men counterparts to hear about some of the things that we have to think about even when you're out there as a as a wonderful male supporter just to kind of think about so if you want to continue the meeting maybe don't put it at your house unless there's a whole slew of people going including women or your wife if she'll be there then I'll be okay but like unless there's that don't ask us because we will have to say no for our own things so I think it's just something again we're not doing any kind of bashing it's more just an education of like this is legitimately something we have to deal with that's why I didn't even want to bring it up because sometimes you almost get labeled it I just read it up and that's not what I want to do that's right but at the same time too then also in terms of safety I mean I have a whole hour long keynote I gave on females traveling safely and it started out with my first job out of college at a hospital I had a soccer and so I had to have a hospital security escort me to my car every night after work and it was such a major inconvenience rate this person literally came into my place of work and was looking for me at my desk and fortunately I was in the main campus having a meeting I wasn't there when it happened but I mean we had police reports file all that and I travel quite a bit now for work so I'm very very passionate about female safety even if there's not bad intentions just some of that and I I'm very lucky in a lot of the industries I work in I have a lot of people who are like I call my second dads they make sure I get back to the hotel safely at night and there is nothing weird or strange about it and then you know you just kind of like watch intent and just see what people how well do you know the people because I've also had people follow me back to my hotel and actually follow me all the way to my room before so I now have a two drink limit for myself I don't ever have more than two maybe one people that know me well know me I have a reputation for you can there's nothing you can say or do that's going to push me past my two drinks nothing and maybe even one some nights where I'm like I'm good sometimes zero drinking we're drinking water because I just you offered me a glass I'm like I'm good happy with water thanks also but I will also say there's times when the ladies when we went out for the ISSA conference when I won the award we tore it up man we had a blast so when you're in the safe environment you can but it's just something again I'm not and this is in in no way form bashing it's more just educating and just because I think I think a lot of our male counterparts don't get that we have to put those limitations on herself yes so I think that's a big thing I'm a big believer to in male advocates so just knowing who those people are in the room that you can trust and then you can say hey like this person's creeping me out or whatever it is or make sure I get home safely tonight there's some areas I really hate traveling to like Vegas because I've just had too many bad experiences there so I try pedal cost avoid lost Vegas if I can so I think it's a lot about mindfulness and awareness but that's for the safety perspective we're going back to being a female in business and then a female owner yeah we have to be very very mindful and aware of how we present ourselves and then also staying true and authentically ourselves I mean I went through a phase where I wore all black all the time because I was like I don't want to deal with any of this I don't want to ever be labeled something so now my even just my personal style has gone through some iterations through the years and now the last two years I would say had been my most authentic self or I've landed on something that style that I'm comfortable with and I feel like is appropriate and a good representation of me but you're also now representing your company it's not just you right so you got to make sure you're representing your team well so making sure you show up and you look like you've prepared for the day you look like you've I don't know ready yeah you're ready because also we get judged harder on that as females than men do too so there's just there's a lot of dynamics we have to be on our toes all the time all the time that's true and I just think again that that's something that so many times people just don't understand right especially as business owners and even many many amazing women out there who I'm working different offices or a woman dominated environment or office space where they don't they don't have to play those politics right right so I think it's I think it's a beautiful thing that we just keep explaining but yeah this is what happens and there was a time for me it was a year ago I was at a conference and I was with and I'm in technology right so that is a very very male dominated world and I was at one of the after parties and it was the after party that I was invited to I got there a little bit late but it was you know you go to these conferences you got four parties to go to and this one was a big one on a rooftop restaurant and I was the only female there and these guys were drinking a lot and I intentionally I didn't drink a drop I was drinking straight water because I just had this feeling and sure enough like an hour and some drunk guy walked up to the organizer one of the the the premiere sponsor of the event and said, dude, what what's going on here? You don't have any. And he used a very derogatory statement about women. And he was like, you don't have any of them here. You know, it's just all of these. And then he used a derogatory statement about what type of men are there? And like he's like, you're in a pepperoni factory where all the the the ladies. And my friend who worked for the vendor who put this on was drunk. And he looked at me and he said, well, this is Monica. Like he literally served me on a platter. And that guy who was drunk looked at me, looked me up and down. And I am standing in a room with 25 high level technology executives who either use me or use our services, PSI services, or we're thinking about it. And I literally, they all watched a guy who I trusted say, well, here's Monica. And gives me this like hand motion up to down. And that drunk guy looked me up to down. And then he looked at me and he leans in close to me. And he goes, hmm, aren't you a snack? Gross. Yeah. And that was literally at a conference with trusted people. And then I went and told the board. And now it's kind of humorous. So now like when I walk into a board meeting or something, they're like, what's up snack? Yes, snacks here. Snacks here. And they'll go call it. Right. And I'm just like, hmm, thanks. But that's literally. And it because a friend who was drunk said, well, here's Monica. Why would you do that to me? And then for him to do that. And then I saw him at a meeting the other and I he I don't think he probably even remember saying that. But it's just it discredits you. It's just it's frustrating and just getting boiled down to whatever you look like or whatever the, I mean, I've been in room full as a people too. I'm sorry. That happened. And it's so tough to because it comes out of the blue. It comes out of nowhere and trying to come up with the right response at the time that's appropriate for the setting. I'm usually just shell shocked when stuff like that happens. I'm just like, I can't wait to get out of here. I mean, at the older I get and then fortunately, the more times stuff like that's happened, the bolder I've gotten with coming up with a retort or reply that's not not clapping back in any way, but you see, I don't think that's that's not appropriate. No, so I think I clapped back pretty inappropriately too. Yeah, I think I said, like, you couldn't not only handle like you couldn't not only handle this snack, you damn well, couldn't handle the meal. And then my friends are like, wow, I was like, well, but you're a jerk, sir, you're a jerk. Right. Well, that's why I don't, I don't like, I like keeping my rigid bedtime. I love lean in bed by nine. I mean, uh oh, we're going to miss it tonight. I know. No, that's okay. That's okay. But you know, like even even my personal life, I don't like going out late if I don't have to. I like keeping my schedule. I like keeping my routine and usually nothing good happens if you go out super late. There are times where I will make an exception and I will drink a few espresso martinis and red bowls and stay up late because I know everybody's going down the bar after it's a group of people that I trust and I'm there to spend time with them. I don't get to see them very often. I'll suck it up better cup and make it happen. But most of the time I'm like, there's nothing that is worth that is keeping me from a good night's sleep in my bed. So I can be sharp again the next day. Well, and I think that's a thing. So now we'll we'll go back to your your company. You travel. I mean, I travel a lot, but you travel more than most people I know and I'm not just saying like you travel from Columbus, Ohio to Indiana. You go to Alaska and then your home for four days and out to Arizona, then home for two days and then go in between your Columbus and Worcester places and then out to the East Coast. How do you keep your energy up and run a company when you're traveling that much? It is not easy and anyone who tells you it is is a liar quite frankly. Yeah, I've run some pretty aggressive timelines and travel itineraries, especially the last few months. I mean, I'm learning as I go and I always think I have more energy than what I do. And sometimes it takes me longer to recover than other times. I'm in the middle right now being home for three weeks straight. Couldn't be happier about it. It's so nice to be at home and rest in recharge, but really it starts to it starts to build up. You think you're okay for a little bit and then once you hit the end of one of these really long stretches, you just collapse. I mean, this winter when we had a big snow storm come through, I was supposed to be in Vegas. I was speaking to the conference and attending a conference for a couple days and I was going to Scottsdale. I was going to come home for two nights and then go back out to Iowa and then come home again. Well, with the snow storm, I ended up staying in Scottsdale. So what was it like a six day business trip turned into 12 because I just stayed there and then went straight to Iowa. So seven day, I don't remember exactly what it was, but a lot of it is continuing to eat well when you're on the road, drinking a lot of water. I work really hard. I know my team feels the disruption sometimes when I'm on the road just because sometimes you go on a flight and there's no Wi-Fi. You're dead. That's it. You're dead in the water. Like I can't communicate with anyone for a few hours. That's it. So the travel days are hard, but I try really hard to continue to just take care of myself. I try not to schedule six AM flights if I don't have to. I always think it's a good idea because I'm going to maximize my day. Bad idea. I don't do it. And late night flights home, although sometimes those are unavoidable. Sometimes that's just what happens. So it's tough, but I mean, my company's remote. So I can work from anywhere, which is a blessing and a curse at the same time, but truly if I have my laptop and a Wi-Fi connection, I'm good to go. So fortunately, when I travel, it's not like I have to shut everything down, but it is tough. It's tough to juggle, especially if I'm in an all-day client meeting, trying to communicate that in a nice way to all my other clients who would like time and attention and just making sure that I like to be where my feet are. So I want to be present. So if I'm at dinner, I usually have my phone tucked away in my purse or flipped upside down on the table if I absolutely have to have it out for some reason. So I try to be really hard, I try really hard to be present with wherever I'm at, which is a big deal. But yeah, the travel, the travel is not glamorous. Actually, we could drop this in the show notes. I have a photo of me curling my hair before I went to a reception, because that's all I had time to do in the airport that day. I was like, well, I got to go out straight off the plane to go to this reception. So we're going to curl my hair in the airport lounge. That's what we're going to do. And so you just kind of make it work, but it is not glamorous. And my neck is still messed up from all the nasty hotel pillows that I stayed on from the last three months. So that's crazy. Well, keeping that confidence, though, and then showing that it's also, do you have time in your schedule? Because it's also very inspiring to other people. So do you have time in your schedule to do any givebacks? And by that, I'm meaning like mentoring and taking other people under your wing. One of the biggest things I've learned over the last few years is sometimes there's phases in life, there are pages, sometimes there chapters, and sometimes there are entirely new books. So when I go into these really intense travel times, which is usually the first quarter of every year, just based on the industries, I'm in and when their conferences are and things like that, I do have to scale back a little bit. But when I am here, I try really hard to go to coffee with people. I love going to eat coffee with people's kids that are in college and hearing about what their goals and their ambitions are. I'm blown away by the next generation of talent that's coming out, absolutely blown away and totally inspired and like these people can run circles around me. And so I love doing that. We have a couple nonprofits that we support as a company. My favorite one is called the Carrying Closet and they mainly focus on domestic violence and children. And so we volunteer as a team, at least in North East Ohio crew and then whoever's in at the time will go and volunteer there for half a day and we'll sort clothes, we'll set up their boutique, we help them move things around, we do all kinds of stuff. And then I like to, I've emptied their annual fundraiser the last two years, which is so much fun, such a joy to hear about the lives that they change and help raise funds for that nonprofit. But that's an area that I definitely want to do more of. But there's definitely everything just ebbs and flows. There's times where my business seems all of the attention. And then there's other times where things quiet down a little bit and I'm able to go spend more time having coffee or being available. But regardless of every person that I have, anyone who's in college that ever go out with or meet up with, they have my personal cell phone number. And I always say call or text me anytime. If you have any questions about anything, you want me to read through your resume. You want me, you see, I know someone at a company you want to work at and you want an intro. Happy to do it. So it's just, it's just something you, I think, you take day by day. For me, it's really hard to commit to saying I'm going to be at a program that's every Wednesday night for four months in a row. I just know that's not realistic for me. So just trying to find other ways, even if it's a Zoom, even while I'm on the road, there's other ways I can give back. They're just a little more nontraditional. No, I like that. So I have to ask them, what's next for you? That's a great question. I have a note on my phone that has more business ideas than I could ever knock out in a lifetime. So, but right now I'm really enjoying the team I've built and the clients that we have and making sure that they're really well-served. For fun, I like to do a lot of home projects. So I think it's one of the ways I can get a really beautiful before and after I love painting. I replaced a toilet this last weekend. I can do all kinds of home stuff. I like, I do my own electrical now. Not new wiring. It's just replacing lights and things like that. But yeah, so I have a couple of properties that I like to pick at, bless you. And yeah, I don't know, I don't know. What's in my mind, too, is if you would have told me 10 years ago, this is where I'd be sitting right now today here at this place with this business, with these people in my life, I couldn't have dreamt this up for myself. So there's something to be said too for just being open to whatever's coming next and not mindlessly blowing around like a feather with no purpose or no direction, but being open to opportunities that sometimes knock on your door and exploring those. So I think it's a very valid thing and all of my listeners will know there's a particular person who I tend to quote all the time and it's just two simple words that he says but go forward. And it's this whole theory on it's Jaco Willink and somebody was interviewing him and said how do you overcome your fears. If there's a fear that's in your path, what do you do to get over it? And he said, I go forward. I go through it. I look at it and I get to the other side and the only way that I'm going to go through that fear is to go through it and just go forward. So I think that you're describing that so eloquently of like you just have to go forward and that's the only way sometimes that you can get through it, whether it's hard stuff, whether it's easy stuff, you just have to keep going forward. And oftentimes I think if people just stay stuck because it's easy because that's what you think is expected of you, then you're just not going to grow. I saw a quote about that recently where it said a lot of people don't chase. There was why do people not chase their dreams. And a lot of it is it's hard to envision yourself in any place but where you are right now. And then and then the other part of that too is believing that that could be yours and that you are worthy and that you deserve it and that you are worthy of chasing your own dreams. And I think that there's something to be said for sometimes just doing. I mean, I never started a business before. And if I waited until if you wait to have the experience to do whatever it is that you want to do, you'll never have it. I mean, I kicked around so many reasons for so many years as to why I couldn't open a business. Oh, it's too risky. Oh, I don't have my MBA. So I got my MBA. Then it was, well, I don't have all these things figured out. And at some point you just have to say, I believe in myself, I'm going to go do it. And I used to hate the question when I'd be interviewing for jobs where they say, where do you see yourself in five years, where do you see yourself in 10 years. And I would say, well, I know what I don't want to do, but there's a lot of things I would love to do. And I mean, I remember one of the goals I set for myself when I graduated from college was to run a marketing department before I turned 40. That was my big goal for myself, plot twist. I did that with time I was 25. So I also tend to underestimate what I'm capable of. So that's why sometimes you just have to go for it, even if you think you're not prepared or not ready for it. Because sometimes you'll fall flat on your face, but you'll learn a million lessons along the way, or you'll have that one conversation or be introduced that one person that ends up changing the trajectory of your life. And you never know when that's going to be if you aren't bold enough and brave enough to just go for it. And also people actually don't spend any time concerned about how you're perceived only you spend time doing that people are all selfish and obsessed with themselves. Nobody gives a crap about us. I always think how funny it is to me how many people stop themselves because they're going to look stupid or they're going to look quote, quote, look dumb look stupid. And I always sit there and say like, I mean, first of all, don't nobody care. But second of all, how conceited of you to think that somebody does right or to think that they're going to care that much that it's going to harbor what you're doing. And I think that's something that we get just as we get older too. Yeah, let the people talk let and I you know, I know there's the whole let them theory and I believe that to a degree, but I also think like it's I'm less of a let them, although I am that way, it's more of a who cares them like who cares or who was it? I forget some some actor said, darn it, it's going to kill me to remember who it is. But he said that he just doesn't get caught up in the minutia of ignorance anymore. So if somebody wants to say one plus one is three, he's like sure is have a good day. And that's it like why why fight with why even try to fight with somebody. So and I've always liked that. I'm like, yes, don't get caught up in the minutia of ignorance. I like that phrase a lot. Yeah, yeah, I was like, I think that's just brilliant. I don't remember how he said it, but that's kind of the way that I took it. I was like, yeah, why would you get caught up in that? So it's kind of one thing. I don't care. I won't not fight with somebody. I won't. Yeah. If they're like, oh, the sky, what are you talking about? The sky is green. I'll be like it sure is absolutely and what a pretty color green. It is have a good day like who cares. I'm not going to fight if that's what you want to be. So my brother and I talk about this a lot. Actually, he's he went back and got his his aviation degree and then he did not have a smooth sailing journey. I won't get into all of all of that, but he did not have an easy uphill path to get to where he is today. And he and I talk about if if we listened to all the people that told us whatever it is that we were doing was a bad idea. Like the number of people that told him going back to school when you were every holiday was 2425 to go pursue an aviation degree that you might go become a commercial airline pilot. If he listened to a number of people that were like, you're crazy. I mean, he would have never done it. And same with business ownership too. I mean, the number of people that are like, oh, there's actually I, I was my own worst critic for the longest time. Oh, there's plenty of people out there that already have business models similar to the one I want to start. They've already taken the industry. There's no space for me here. Well, there's space for me and their space for my team and their space for the work that we do and people want it and they crave it. And so sometimes businesses or lifestyles or people that look like you may not exist, but that doesn't mean that that's not for you or that's not maybe it doesn't exist because that's the space for you to walk into. Right. That's exactly where you should go. And I think I interviewed somebody who was it pretty recently. I had her on. I'm pretty sure. No, it was a female. I had her on. I mean, it's slipping my mind who because I get to interview so many awesome people. But she told me because we were talking about the path of business ownership and what got her there. And she looked at me and she goes, you don't remember. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, you looked at me because I said, oh, I think I want to start my own consulting company. And I don't know that anybody's going to want to work with me. And she said, Monica, you looked me dead in the eye and said, well, why wouldn't somebody want to work with you? And she was like, that's stuck with me. And I was like, that question. I mean, that's just the way I live my life. Right. There's not everybody's going to want to do business with me. Not everybody's going to want to do business with you. But the people who do want to do business with us. That's the people who are supposed to be there helping just to start a business or whatever it is you sell, even if you don't own a business. If you sell a business, I never took when I was in traditional sales for enterprise companies and people would tell me, no, I never took it personally. It was like, okay, it's just not right for you because then they're, but good. I want you to tell me that I don't want you to be so sad about trying to tell me know that you don't tell me know because now I'm going to waste my time. Right. The second I know, I'm out the door. It's like, great. No problem. I might hit you back up a year later. I might send you or now I can just automate that shit. You know, but and then you'll hear from me every once in a while, like, hope you're doing well. Not even ask him for a sale. Hope you're doing good. But on to the next. Yeah, your vibe, a tractor tribe. And actually, I just talked with someone about this at a recent event where I actually told, I told them, I'm so sorry, but we don't have the capacity right now. And that was really hard to have that conversation. I've actually had a couple times other think about it. And but I would so much rather have that conversation. It's a hard conversation to have at the beginning. It's even harder. The further things go. So like, what if I had taken on this person as a client, this company is a client. And I didn't have the capacity for me. And they had a terrible experience. And then they tell everyone, you don't want to work with her company there. Not good. I would so much rather you write about that. Actually, in your book of like, you'd rather say no. And then. Those people actually, they might send you business because they're like, no, this person is very in tune with themselves. And they know what's going on. And I respect them for saying, no, and not just taking me on if I couldn't support it. So I'd rather have that conversation than an even worse one later. Absolutely. I think that that's just knowing our own limitations. And there's I think a from and look entrepreneurs definitely deal with this. But I think people period deal with this where it's like you just think I need more and more is going to make it better. So I need more sales, more closings, more clients, more of this. And in reality, then you can sometimes do brand damage or you can sometimes do cost the integrity of the work or the output, whether it's a widget or a service. So it's or even just yourself. So even if you're not even if you're a stay at home mom, don't over schedule yourself, don't overdo it. And God knows I overdo it. I'm not a mom, but like I overdo it with everything. You know, and I and I still put boundaries up, but I think it's okay to say no. Yeah, it's hard to it is hard, but like if you're not doing that, then you're going to just burn yourself out. Yes, which I struggle with that all the time, burnout, and I probably always will, quite frankly, but I'm in this I call myself a multi passionate entrepreneur. And when that's the case, and you have a lot of passions and a lot of things you want to pursue and a lot of things you love doing, it's really easy to say yes to everything that you're like, I want to do it all, I want to do it all. But I tell clients all the time we're about quality, not quantity, I'd rather do fewer things well than a lot of things poorly. So focusing your time and your energy on the things that you know you can do well, and it will serve you well and serve your teammates or your clients well is so much more important. than just putting out, I mean, even from a tactical marketing standpoint, where we're doing a lot right now around target account marketing, because rather than sending out these massive emails or massive messages to massive amounts of people who may or may not be interested in what it is you have to say, focusing on a smaller, more curated list of people or companies and going after those very intentionally is a much, much better use of time and more yield better results than just throwing everything up against the wall and hoping something sticks. Oh my God, of course, you've just got to be curated and I think that that's something that we learn as we get older and fail. More importantly, it doesn't matter about the age. It matters how much failure you're doing. So when you can fail and fail forward and you're learning from it, then all you're doing is learning from it. So you're benefiting yourself. Yes, that's great. It's hard. No, I love it. So I always ask at some point during the podcast, how did I meet the person? Many times, I've never met them before. And half the time somebody will be on either sitting in this chair or be online with me. And that's the first time I've ever laid eyes on them. But that's not true with you. That is not true here. That is not true. So I went to a event. Okay, so I started spending a lot more time in Columbus last year and then started to move myself down here. And last June, a long time mentor of mine. And actually, we do a lot of work together now, but he invited me to go to the event. And Dave, Dave Lumis, yeah, I'm trying to get him on this podcast. So he's a great podcast guest. And I swear Dave comes up in every single podcast I ever go on. And so does Christine Hawkman, who was the high performance coach, they recommended earlier. So shout out to both of them because they have heard my life. Oh my gosh, they're amazing humans. So Dave invited me to go to this event at Horse Power Farms as a Reese builds event and said, I didn't really know anything. But I was in a phase last year where I was like, I'm just, you know, we just talked about saying no, but I was like, I'm just a yes. Because you know, yes, it was a year of yes, it really was. I was like, I'm sure I'm game to go meet people at a networking event. Dave knows everyone. So if I just go and hang out with Dave, I'll like, by default, if standing next to meet like tons of people. So I show up at this event, turn off Dave knows a lot of people and I look around and I'm like, where are the women? Oh, men. There were a couple women, but they were all, there are men. So I see this woman in pink lipstick and pink heels holding her own. We were talking like two or three people. And the other thing you get over to is as a business center, you get more and more bold walking into rooms. If you aren't like, you need to master the skill, just walk in a room and just walk right up to people. I used to dread cocktails or happy hours. And I'd like stand off to the quarter by myself waiting for someone to come up and say, hi, just go say hi to people. So I see this woman over here, clearly like powerful boss woman. And I walk up turn. I was just like, hi, I'm Michelle. I've never been to one of these events before. What's your name? What do you do? And I'm talking you for like an hour. I said, my name is Monica. Let's chat. And that was really it. I was it. And to the point where I was after an hour, I'm like, you know, if I'm being a stage 5 clinger, boot me out of here, but there's not other women here. So I'm like, who should I know? And you introduced me to a couple of people. And then you had your things to do. And then I went and started networking with all those people too. So yeah, it was very serendipitous. That was last June. Yeah. June is about last five. And here we are now. And then since then we've created a great friendship and camaraderie too. So as business owners, it's sometimes is like, I just need to vent this out. Can I just get this out? And we go have a coffee, a drink, water, and just talk. And because sometimes there's few who understand what it's like to be in our shoes or what we make it, right? What there's what pressure we put on ourselves. And I'm not saying all of that is valid, but it's valid for us, right? It's what we create what we put. So benefit of that or the moral of that story is text yourself, text yourself to go out and get uncomfortable, to go up to somebody and say hi. And that was it. That was it. It was literally. That's how that's literally how easy it is. And then I say hi to you. And then we've I've introduced you to other people. You've introduced me to people. And now it's like this big happy little network. And we have this whole group of women, um, business owners who, who just hang. I prayed about that last year. I was like, I need more, uh, female business owners in my life. And I just didn't have that. And especially ones that you'll meet a lot of people who are solo pernoors, which is all fine and well. But you just feel you, you, you, you deal with a very different set of issues as you have payroll quite frankly. Um, and as you have a larger growth, you know, scale of clients and especially once your business gets into the seven figures, it's a very different conversation. And so to be surrounded by people that get it, um, is such a blessing. So, so all this started because no one introduced us, no one opened up the store for us. It was literally, I just saw you at an event and walked up to you and I'm like, hi, Michelle, nice to meet you. What do you do? And here we are today. Yeah. And here we are. And then some of the other guests. So like Natasha's been on here and that was from networking. Well, I think we both spoke on the same circuit. But yeah, point just being get out of your own damn way. Yes. And, and go say hi, go introduce yourselves, go ask for mentors, go ask for if, if, if you can be a mentee of theirs. Um, and just collaborate. Ask for what you want. That's been huge. I remember my first, the first company that I worked at, I worked there for six years. This is my second or third job out of college. Uh, but I felt like I, I really wanted to keep growing and developing. And so I went to that report to the CEO and I went to him and I said, I want to, I want a leadership development program. I need something that I can keep working on or working towards. And guess what? They put one together for me. It would have never put that together if I hadn't asked, um, raises are another common one that you've got to go ask for. But even just looking for that mentorship support development. I mean, it's amazing how many people are flattered. If you go up and ask, Hey, would you mentor me? People are like, Oh my gosh. Yes. And so it's, but you never know unless you ask, you have to ask for what you want. That's right. Um, and I think that that's a very valid thing. I was having lunch the other day with a client. And when we sat down, long time client, uh, and she's a manager for one of the clients and she sat down and was like, can you give me some advice? Can you give me some help on building my brand? And I was like, well, sure. Like I thought we were here to talk tech, but absolutely. And then we can do both, right? So it's just about that. It's finding your lane and unapologetically staying in it. And it's amazing to me too. How many men actually have reached out to me and said, I'm thinking about starting my business or I see what you're doing. And I'm really inspired or any of that. And I always take on those conversations with absolute discretion, never share with anyone, especially if they're employee and you're like, I am looking to do this or this. Um, but I think it's just so important that we, we create paths and open doors for other people who want to follow their dreams to because I've certainly had people along the way who have opened doors for me to get to where I am today. So it's never anything you do alone. It's something you have to, you have to build a community, but build in a community takes intention. We could spend hours talking about that too. If how it takes time and energy to find that. So anyway, all that to say, uh, yeah, just walking into an event and walking up to you and saying, hi, I mean, that's, you never know when something cool could happen. I talked to people on airplanes. I talked to everybody. So are you saying that you create a bait? I created it. Okay. So before we get into my final five questions that are the rapid fire, I do want to ask tell our audience here how they can work with you. Okay. Um, so creative is a sales and marketing and enablement firms. So we like to make sure that only 10% of the time there's overlap between your sales strategies and your marketing strategies. So we do a lot of CRM implementations, for example, but basically if you're looking for someone who can come in and we're a little more on the marketing side, but we do a lot of sale support through CRM. Um, but if you're looking for someone to really help you, um, put together a strategy, a plan and then go execute it, that's what we like to do. So when I started out as a consultant, I thought I was just going to write plans, which I did initially and then people came back to me and said, okay, now who do you recommend to go do it? Well, actually I can do that too. So, um, so we do a little bit of both. So if you're in, we work in a ton of different industries now, we do a lot of work and be to be, um, in a manufacturing and some of the more commercial industrial and nitty-gritty types. But we have auction clients. Um, we have a veterinary services client. We have a whole wide swath because at the end of the day, the industries have nuances, but the core fundamentals of sales and marketing are the same. No, that's great. And we will link in the show notes, uh, all the ways to get in touch with you from your website, um, your LinkedIn, your email, whatever you would like to share. Um, we'll put that in the, in the show notes. So now, unless there's anything you want to leave us with before I get into my ferocious five, any, any last things that you want to talk about. It's not a trick question, too. The answer can be no. You don't have to get to a yes. I think we covered a lot. We did. Yeah. I guess my, my one word, my word last year was authenticity matters. I guess it's two words, but I'm really a big fan of authenticity and being yourself and finding a way to do that in either the space you're currently in or if you don't feel like you can be authentically yourself, create a space. So I talk about that a lot too about how I felt like I couldn't find the right table to sit at. So I built a table. And then it's amazing how many people come and join you at your table. So live authentically life is short. I love it. We're going to use that in a short definitely. And right after this. We're actually going down stairs and the kitchen table that will eat dinner at I built. I designed it. And how that happened. Fun fact, we moved into this house I think eight years ago. And when we were getting ready, no, wait, it was before this house. The house we built before this house. So three years, three or four years before that, I wanted one of those big, beautiful, giant, heavy farm tables. And they were costing thousands of dollars. And I wanted it so simple. And I refused to spend, you know, four, five, six, seven, eight thousand dollars on the table. I wouldn't do it. So then I came home one day and I looked at Mike and I said, I'm going to build a table. And he was like, you're not going to build a table. And I said, watch me. Watch me. Now. Now. Oh, go sit down. So I literally started doing so much research on engineering and architecting a table. I learned about like the buttresses. I learned about like, I mean, you name it. I learned about like supporting beans. I learned about sunk anchors. And I mean, I learned about all this stuff. Wow. Yeah. And I learned about what types of woods to use. And then two, two, what is it? Not today to graph two. Oh, what is it? Like when you take one foot and you make it like a quarter of an inch. And then it's a whatever. Oh my god. My brain's not working right now. To scale. I made it to scale. And I had like all the scale paper out there. I had everything. I made a cut list. I had like the list of every piece of lumber I needed, every kind of screws I needed, you name it. And when I walked downstairs one day, and I had all of my my drawings, and then I had wrote and drew out the cut line and that this board would go here, this breadboard would go here. These were the anchors. This was the point that I needed to make these pocket holes. You name it. I had it all. And Mike was like, oh shit. You really want to make a table? And I was like, yeah, can I borrow your car? I'm going to go to I need your SUV. I'm going to go to the hardware store. And he was like, well, I want to go. Girl, it was so hard for me to say yes. Did you? I did. I let him help. But I was like the the general contractor of that. Yeah. But yeah, it was so hard for me to look at somebody who told me I couldn't do it. And he said it out of love. It wasn't this thing of like, you don't have the ability to. He was like, we're not gonna build it. Just no. But yeah. And then that table, when we sold that house, they went back and forth with me on they wanted to buy the house, but they wanted the table. And I said, no. And they said, we won't buy the house. And I said, then don't buy the house. They wanted to table that bad. Well, it's testament to the craftsmanship, craftsmanship. That's right. And then I finally said, like, look, I built it. Like I designed it and built it. And they said, oh, okay, we'll let you have it. Wow. Yeah. Never underestimate the power of a woman on a mission. So build your own table. Build your own table. That's right. You literally built your own table. I literally built my own table. So I chuckle. And now I love in a podcast recently, we said Shirley Chism who said years ago, you know, all around finding your voice and politics from a woman's side, Shirley Chism said if there's not a chair at the table for you, bring your own chair. And then I think our generations have taken that and said build your own table. But in doing so look at how awesome it is. And quite honestly, now I think we're to a point where people are taking the table we built and the table that already existed and now they're pushing them together. So it doesn't have to be an either or, you know, now I think we're at this point in business that and in life that I think people are just starting to say, no, I see the value in that table and in this table. Let's collaborate. I love that. Oh, and the whole table analogy too. So I jokingly say we give three F's at creative eight faith family food in whenever order you'd like. And I also have this talk right now that I've been giving on maintaining our humanity in the middle of an AI transformation. And looking for those points of being human and really connecting with other humans. One thing we all do is we eat. And so literally breaking bread with colleagues with clients with everybody is something I believe so strongly. And and I think people who are really good at maintaining relationships true authentic human relationships at connection are still going to be the people in business that do the best because at the end of the day, it did you ever read? I think it was Bob Eiger's book, the Disney CEO. Oh, yeah, he talks about the story of when he I can't remember what it's called, but he's talked about the story of when they bought what's named George Lucas when they bought all the Star Wars stuff. And it was literally, yeah, it was literally like them walking outside together and him promising that he would take care of the franchise. It wasn't some big technology thing. It was literally two people just trusting each other and agreeing they're going to do business together. And this is what's going to happen. And that's how they do the right thing. I think that was it. I may be misquoting it. But I mean, at the end of the day, that's what still matters is we're still humans. So I've got to show it for humans and eat at the same table. Eat at the tables we build at the tables we build and the tables they build. It doesn't matter. Just eat together. Eat together. I love it. It's important. All right. Well, I'm going to ask you my quick rapid fire questions. Coffee or cocktails? Coffee. Morning person or night owl? Morning. We know that answer. Do you take risks or live in a sense of security? Risks. Really? Yeah. Okay. Do you lead or follow? Lead. Have you always? Yes. Okay. One word for your future. Oh, this isn't one that's getting me. One word for my future. Unexpected. Okay. I like that. Yeah. Not following the norm. I like that. Leave the door open. You know, I do. Yeah. Well, Michelle on behalf of all of our first just ambition listeners, thank you for spending an hour plus with us, giving us so much insight and being raw. Thank you for being transparent and just taking us through your whole, your whole path. We appreciate you being here. Thank you for having me out here. This is such a treat and went by very quickly. My pleasure, my pleasure. And to all of my ferocious ambition listeners, things I want you to go away with from today is the question, why don't you follow your dreams? I want you to make me a promise that you are going to follow your dreams. That the malt be a multi passionate entrepreneur, I'm going to use that one a lot and to always remember to ask for what you want. Those are the things that Michelle left us with. And I am leaving you with a heartfelt thank you for being here as always. And I look forward to our next time we get to chat. Thank you for listening to ferocious ambition. (upbeat music)