Build Muscle & Strength & Forge Your Life Path | Dorian Yates

When people come to train with me, I said our objective is to get an exercise and go to real muscular failure. You've got to give it more than it's used to. The body does not want to change. It wants to keep state to squab. So you've got to give it a bloody good reason, as we would say, in England, to change, right? So you've got to put more stress on the body than it's used to. And then you need to recover from that. That's the idea to do enough to stimulate, but not more than that, because this is an overload that you've got to recover from. And the number one thing that I hear from people is, I don't really have time for that. I have a business, I have a family. I said, if you could give me 45 minutes, twice a week, that's all you need to do. And it's not theory, because I've done it. You change your life, literally, with that and a good diet. So the whole time thing excurses, it's not relevant. I'm not listening. You don't need a lot of time. Welcome to the Uberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for every day life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dorian Yates. Dorian Yates is a legendary six-time Mr. Olympia winner, who is also considered one of the greatest pioneers of training methods for bodybuilding health and fitness. He is known for using and recommending low volume high intensity workouts, meaning very few sets done with maximal focus, perfect form, and directed muscle engagement taken to muscular failure and beyond. Today, Dorian teaches us how the typical person who is not interested in competitive bodybuilding should train for health and fitness and overall best results. We cover muscle building, fat loss, mobility, what forms of cardio are best, when to do them, and much more. The advice Dorian provides today is immensely valuable and applicable to everyone, men, women, young, and old. He explains how, for most people, the best muscle building and strength results will be achieved by training no more than three, and in some cases only two days per week. Dorian also shares valuable insights on how to mentally frame and navigate your life in goals. How to use your hardships as fuel, and it's a lot to say about that based on his own experience, but also how to recognize and lean into your natural strengths. How to be practical in choosing what dreams you chase, and how to know when to pivot from one endeavor to another. We also discuss cannabis. In fact, even though I, of course, knew he was, Dorian and I first connected because of an episode that I did about cannabis, both the potential benefits of cannabis, as well as the very serious risks that may exist for certain people. Dorian's experience and read of the data on cannabis contrasted with mine, and that led us to an ongoing discussion that we continue today on the podcast, and that has me now reading into some newer studies, and I promise that I'll update everyone on my take of those studies once I get through them. Oh yes, and Dorian also took me through a yate style high-intensity workout at Gold's Jim Venice. We trained back, we filmed it, and it's posted to our Clips channel, so you can check that out. It's linked in the shownote caption. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dorian Yates. The Dorian Yates. Welcome. Apparently, yeah. Yeah, certainly. Big fan for many years. Thanks to you and thanks to Mike Menser and a few. At the time, real iconoclas, I trained differently than everyone around me told me to, and while I never became a competitive athlete at anywhere near the level that you did certainly, it got me the results I wanted so much faster. I feel super healthy and great at 50. And I really want to talk about this high-intensity low-ish volume training that really can be credited to you, because for those that don't know the community that you come from, there have been people who have been big proponents of long sessions, many hours in the gym at the opposite extreme. There have been people such as Mike Menser, who have been proponents of very brief, very high-intensity, even one set to failure, and that's it. And you brought things into some sense of moderation. This is almost like a hybrid. Yeah. Exactly. Between the purist HIT, which I mean, I didn't come up with the idea, the guy that really initiated the whole thing was Arthur Jones, who was the guy that made the Norse in the machines, and then he passed it on, right? And Mike Menser made it more popular because Mike Menser was American champion, Mr. Universe, and he was in the magazines. And I read Arthur Jones' books, and I think I'm a logical thinker. So it made sense to me. But if it made sense to me, and it didn't work out practically, who cares, you know? So like yourself, I was kind of training like that, and everyone was telling me, this is not the way to do it. You need to train more often, do more sets and so on. So I tried it. And the whole thing with my careers, it's a bit like a science experiment, in a way, that I documented everything. So I've got every workout. The first time I stepped in the gym and said, seriously, okay, I'm going to train, and I want to be a competitive bodybuilder, and this is how I'm going to change my life, and maybe I'm going to get a gym or something like that. That was about it at the time. But I said, okay, so I'm tracking everything. My progress is going really well. I'm training like three times a week for maybe 45 minutes an hour, but I'm working as well. I'm doing construction. I'm doing some heavy jobs. So this is taking energy. Going well, going well, okay, then let me try it. Let me jack it up on training four times a week. Do a little bit more. What happened? Nothing. That's what happened. Everything stopped for three or four weeks. I cut it back, started growing again. So I didn't really need to learn that lesson too many times. And I got to be British champion. I got to be pro, so in pro. And I read everything that Mike mentioned, wrote in the magazines and everything like that, and got to meet him when I came out here. We discussed training, and so, okay, what are you doing? I'm warming up whatever it takes a couple of sets. I'm doing a set to failure. And then I'm resting two or three minutes, dropping it down 10% maybe and going to failure again. So I'm hitting that nail in twice just to make sure it's in there. So Mike said, why don't you try it cutting back to one set to failure? So I started that around 19, 192. And I feel like I get another level of growth from that. So people say, Dorian doesn't do HIT. I don't know what category we want to put it in, but it's probably somewhere between conventional bodybuilding and the extreme of HIT that Mike Mensa was doing and Arthur Jones, which would be perfect for the average person. I mean, Arthur Jones was doing like a whole bodywork a couple of times a week. That was his initial recommendation. And I agree for the average person, that's great, because you want to build a certain level of muscle mass for your health. But I was a competitive bodybuilder. So you got to be concerned with a little bit like, you know, side-doubt, rear-doubt, average person could do one shoulder exercise that would be enough. So you need to do a little bit more as a competitive bodybuilder. So somebody came up with a moniker of blood and guts. They saw my trainer, that looks like blood and guts. So that's what we called it. So it's high-intensity training a lot less than the other guys were doing probably, but maybe the HIT purist will say, "Ice not." But it is what it is. And it's all, I've got it, every workout written down, so people can see what I did and call it what you will, but you know, it was briefer than everyone else I was competing against. And it had an effect. Although not everyone followed what I was doing, but prior to myself being successful, it was like six times a week. Some people were doing twice a day, not very often, to be honest. There's a lot in the magazines. Arnold promoted that a lot, right? But if you look at Arnold, he was probably a full-size when he was 21-22. He was huge. How did he get there? He was a bench press in 500. He was doing deadlifts, he was doing squats, whatever. He built the foundation. And I believe competitive bodyboats back then, they kind of use the weights as a calorie burner as well. So they've got the muscle mass, then they do more volume and more sets and more reps. And obviously, this is helping to maintain the muscle while at the same time burn a lot of calories. So I said, "Wouldn't it be better to do the weight training just to build muscle and maintain muscle and do some cardio exercise to burn extra calories?" So then you'll be able to recover properly. So that was my approach. So it probably falls somewhere in between the two camps, to be honest. Yeah, I remember trying the one set to failure, a couple warm-ups, one set to failure. You pre-exhaust, you know, leg extensions into leg press. And it occurred to me after about a year or two that I needed to do a little bit more. I mentioned that because I think I'm like most people in the sense that, let me frame this right, I could get certain movements to really thrash the muscle that I needed to with one or two sets. But if there isn't really good mind-muscle connection and fiber recruitment, you might need a bit more. It's possible. Yeah. I mean, none of this is written in stone. When people come to train with me, I said, "Our objective is to get an exercise and go to real muscular failure. We'll need to get there safely so we'll do a couple sets to warm up. But if somehow you don't feel or I don't feel you nailed it and that said let's do another one. You know there's not a law, we can't do a little bit more. So you are correct in saying that somebody that's very experienced, they get that mind muscle connection where you can just link in and you can fully destroy it. So it depends on the person but the idea is to not do more than is necessary because then you're going to find it harder to recover. And the process is stimulate, right? So you've got to train, you've got to overload and during this process you're not growing, you're creating damage, stress to the muscle, that then has to recover and then overcompensate. So two things need to be in place, need to be sufficient intensity or overload or there'll be no reaction and then you need to recover from that. And let's just put it straight out there man. You know there's a big difference between somebody using anabolic steroids then somebody that's not. So somebody that's using can recover from that process more quickly than some of that isn't. So I feel like I should always say this because when you're looking at a champion bodybuilder, how he trains a young guy trying to build up, that's probably not appropriate for you right now. That guy has already got the size and is refining for a competition or something. So that's the idea to do enough to stimulate but not more than that because this is an overload that you've got to recover from. So you've got to recover before you grow as well. So you don't want to go back to the gym before that whole process is a taken place. So I use some simple analysis sometimes when people are training with me like we're going in now, we're not going to wall down, right? We're re-eave having your house, we're not going to wall down and the guys need to come now with the bricks. So they need materials and they need to do it but the halfway through building that wall and you're coming knock it down again, we're not getting anywhere, you know? 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Again, that's Juve spelled J-O-O-V-V dot com slash Hubertman to get up to $400 off. One of the really kind of unfortunate things about resistance training is that it fills the muscle with blood temporarily, in part because of some quotes that came from Arnold and pumping iron. The so-called pump is an illusion, right? It's transient, and while it can be helpful in letting you know that you targeted a given muscle correctly, I think people get addicted to that feeling, but they're not realizing that the damage to the muscle tissue that then is allowed to recover is what makes the muscle actually larger when you're now inside of the gym. A pump is just a temporary extra blood flow to the area. That feels good, you pump up, you feel tight, but you can get a lightweight and get a great pump. It's not going to stimulate any growth. So don't be fooled by the pump. It's nice and it's part of the process, but you've got to overload the muscle. It wants to keep the state to squaw. Otherwise, you won't adapt. So even if it's like half a pound more, or one rep more, it's got to be something more that the body says, "Hey, this stress, I can't handle it. I need to reinforce myself and adapt to this stress." So next time, it won't be so stressful. That's basically the process. So it can't be linear forever, right? Maybe in your first year of training, in the first 18 months, you just go in, like I put 20, 25 pounds on in the first 18 months that I was training and natural as well. So it becomes a case of diminishing returns, and at some point, you can't just keep going up like this. So I tell people, train real hard for like five or six weeks and then come down for two weeks, maybe some maximum. So you'll sort of saw tooth it like that. Hard for five or six weeks, then back off. And during that two weeks, are you telling people to stay out of the gym entirely? No, I'm telling you, you can go in and do some lightweight, like, but nowhere near failure, blood flow, keep the maintenance. If you want to take a week off, I think it's a good couple of times a year. A lot of guys, when I had a gym, you know, the guys, I'm stuck on this and then I said, okay, take a week off. Oh, no, what do you mean? I said, man, just take a week off. Yeah, come back in a week and tell me how you feel. And I came back and I was stronger. I was like, no shit, man. So because you've rested, you're letting your body rest and rebuild. So that'd be a lesson to you. So if I could travel back in time, I wouldn't have called the movie "Pumping Iron," I would have called it stress and adapt. Stress recovery. Not quite so sexy. Exactly. Exactly. I feel like I'm coming all the time. But that whole notion of the pump plus this idea that, you know, many, many hours in the gym is what's required. I think if it kept a lot of the general public out of resistance training, I think now that's changed. And fortunately, because I think it is very beneficial. If we could get a little granular about training and recovery, I think it'd be helpful for people. I realize that you laid out the top contour really nicely. So for a person who's natural, not taking hormone replacement therapy or antibiotics, you think two, maybe three whole body sessions to start out to learn the movements. Is that doing one or two sets to failure? What does that look like for the raw beginner? A raw beginner, first of all, you need to learn how to do the movements correctly before let's thinking about going to failure. So it'll be a certain period of time learning to do the exercise correctly. Put in some kind of idea in the head of what's going on. You know, what do the pecs do? Bring your arms down and across the body. What do you lats do? They bring up around down and back. So it'd be amazed like if you have to probe bodybuilders, some of them don't know. Like why they're doing what they're doing. What's the mechanics involved? And I get them to do light sets. Very perfect. Do you feel that? Do you feel how it contracts when you're lats and you squeeze and you contract it? Yeah, I feel it. I feel it. Okay. Now you've got it, but you've got to try to maintain that when it gets really hard because we're going against the natural mechanics of the body here, right? Because we, as I say, we're doing chest-your. We're trying to isolate the pecs with some doubts involved in triceps and work that or we work in legs. We're working back. The body normally doesn't work like that. It works as a unit, right? If you throw something, you don't do that from your triceps, right? It'll be from your foot through the hips, through the shoulder, whole body thing. So when the exercise gets really hard, your brain is going to try to recruit or change the exercise to make it easier. So I got to get people to override that instinct. Just stick with the form until we get to the point where you can't do any more and understand, you know, that's why I get them to do light stuff at first to really feel it, understand, I explain what's going on. A couple of weeks after that, we can start pushing to failure. I actually had a guy recently that we had a business meeting and he told me he was diabetic and had liver problems and it was overweight and this and that. I gave him a challenge. I said, "You're trained with me for a month. I'll fix all that shit." I'll put my duct at this and that. I said, "Listen, he trained me three times a week for about 45 minutes. After one month, obviously I changed this diet as well, basically for a short period of time very low carbs. After one month, he was not in a diabetic zone. He was out of the pre-diabetic zone. He was in the normal range. - Great. - And his liver function that was three times the normal amount, liver enzymes, was back to normal. I told him, check it out, you've got a fatty liver. So yeah, I had a fatty liver, I said, I know. He said, my doctor told me not to eat fat. I'm like, man. Do you know how long, at least I don't know here, but in England, how long an MD, a doctor, spends studying nutrition? - Yeah, it's trivial. - One afternoon. One afternoon, two or three hours. I mean, you can learn nothing. So the doctor was telling me he's got a fatty liver, so stop eating fat. I said, that's absolutely the worst advice you could get. - It's a reason. - Because you've got fatty liver. It's uncontrolled blood sugar. So we get your blood sugar down. One month, his liver was normal, his blood sugar was normal. He lost like five, six kilos of body fat, just in a month and we're doing three times a week. - Whole body. - We split it up, actually. It's a three workout, so he's hitting everything once a week. - When our mutual friend, you knew him better than I did, the now deceased, unfortunately, Mike Mentzer, told me to train each body part once per week. First I thought he was crazy, so legs once a week, calves once a week, maybe twice for some people, the calves, but shoulders and arms and chest and back on three separate days. Legs, chest and back, shoulders and arms. I thought he was crazy, but then I thought about it and the chest and back workout, you're indirectly targeting the arms. Legs is, if you do 'em right, as a whole body experience. - And a lot of stress on your nervous system, which has to recover independently of the whatever muscle group you're training. If you do legs, I mean, really to failure, there's a lot of stress on your nervous system as well, so that also has to recover. That's why I say after six weeks, I've just noticed with myself and many people, it seems to like you hit a plateau there. So I'm trying to push through it, come down, and I take a rest and go again later. - So I know that your opinion on real world results versus laboratory studies, but these days, let me just put something out there, I'd like to see your response. These days, people will talk a lot about, okay, the studies or muscle biopsies show you train a muscle and stimulate hypertrophy growth. And then muscle protein synthesis peaks, 48 hours later, which means that you can hit the muscle again, ideally three days later or two days later. I tried that 'cause I thought, "Hey, listen, I'm a scientist, I'll try it." And I immediately started going backwards with my progress. This was a few years ago. And went back to training each thing directly once per week, and where there's indirect stuff, arms getting hit once indirectly 'cause of a chest and back workout on a separate day, found, I went right back to progress again. And so, I'm a scientist, trained to do science. So how do you think about something where in a laboratory, you can see something like, protein synthesis peaks 48 hours later, except therefore, train every 72 hours versus the real world phenomenon. - This is all very interesting, but if it doesn't work in practicality, what's it worth? You know, I hear this a lot now about this science-based training, but I actually don't know what science they're talking about. I mean, some meta studies, I think, but how were those studies carried out, with whom and so on and so on? I don't know, I know the KCVA AirTor study where it put on 65 pounds of muscle verified in a month by training like less than about an hour a week, I think. - It was your whole body. - Super slow body stuff. - And yes, he was very underweight because he wasn't on anything, and then he got sick. So he's underweight, so he's building back muscle, but he wouldn't build it back without much stimulus. So 65 pound of muscle, although it was muscle memory, let's say he had been that big before, but he put it on in a month, and you compare that with Arnold that diited down to 210, I think, to do this film, stay hungry. Then he went back up to 230 for the Mr. Olympia, but that took him like three months. So you can compare the two. So when the people talk about these science-based studies, and he shouldn't train to failure, it's better to keep reps and reserve, I don't know which studies they're talking about. I'm not saying they're not out there, but I'm not familiar with them. I'm not familiar with how they carried out the studies. But if it doesn't work in practicality, does it really matter? - Well often, I've spent some time with these, and you might not be surprised to learn that a lot of times, it's, you know, we got some college students, they're doing leg extensions, you know, we're looking at biopsies of the quadriceps, this kind of thing, rarely is it the kind of compound movements, multi-joint movements, sometimes, but not always. Well, my experience with the high intensity, low-ish volume training has been, I'll say it's not just about gaining muscle, I mean, I'm now 50, I know you're almost 64. - Yep, looking amazing. - Looking amazing. We'll tell us more about longevity stuff in a bit, but I have to say part of it is also that if one trains the way that you're describing each muscle once per week, focusing on intensity, not volume, and so forth, six weeks or so, then backing off for two weeks, you also find that in your peer group, you're not the one always complaining about pain, and you have energy for other things, which we'll get back to. I mean, unless you're a competitive bodybuilder, most people, including myself, need energy to tend to life, and want to be able to not be, it's not the soreness, it's the constant aches and pains that come from overtraining, I think, that most people don't have to live with, but think they do. - It depends on your goals, yeah, but I really believe the average person, yeah, that wants to get health benefits from bodybuilding, weight training, resistance, whatever you wanna call it, right? They should have a guy that's 40 or 50 or 60, guy or a lady, whatever. The idea is if you could, because you've lost muscle mass, slowly since maybe 1% a year, since you're 40, right? And this is affecting your health, your metabolism, the ability to process sugar, many, many things are, bone strength, and the number one thing that I hear from people is, I don't really have time for that, I have a business, I have a family, I said, if you could give me 45 minutes, twice a week, that's all you need to do. Okay, you need to eat properly and everything like that, but that's all you need to do for the average person. If you talk eight to 10 exercises that covered your whole body and you did it twice a week, that would be enough for the average person. One for chest, one or two for back, one or two for legs. Hey, if you wanna do some bicep curls and some triceps, you can do it, but you're doing pressing anyway. So for the average person, that would actually be enough. And it's not theory because I've done it with people, like I'm saying, this gentleman that came along, we put 45 minutes in, nearly an hour, three times a week, 'cause I had him doing cardio as well. Well, I guess how long the cardio was, six minutes, six minutes, you have been pedal hard. We're doing sprints, like on an air bike. So my favorite, because it engages every muscle, push, pull, legs. If you do a 20 second, all out, and you can see how you got on the side of the thing, you can see how much watch your generator. So now you have a target to hit or exceed every time. So do a minute, minute and a half warmup, whatever. Feel warm, all out, balls out, like the devil's chasing you for 20 seconds. First one's tough, it's okay. Go down slowly for a minute, do the second one, all out. Second one's really tough, yeah. The third one is, I've never met anybody that wants to do one after the third one, because literally you can't breathe. And the benefits from that, again, I think it was a book called The One Minute cardio. It's a bit tricky, 'cause it's not really one minute. There's one minute of sprints, but a six minutes in total. And they compared that to 45 minutes of steady cardio on a treadmill or whatever it is. And the results are more or less the same. So what do you wanna do if you wanna spend six minutes? You wanna spend 45 minutes, or rather do the six minutes. I do a bit of long cardio as well myself, 'cause I like biking and the mountains and stuff. But if you did that twice a week, along with some weight training, that would be amazing. You change your life, literally with that and a good diet. I'm not listening. - Well, what I love about you is that you've done things at the ultra elite level within bodybuilding. But the advice that you're giving right now is very practical for the everyday person. And I'm not a psychologist, but I'm an adventurer of hypothesis here, which is that some of that has to do with the fact that you grew up, blue collar background, from Birmingham working full time, while building out your bodybuilding career. You didn't come to it with a briefcase full of cash and have the opportunity to just say, well, how much training can you do? Well, let's figure it out. You had to be very practical. And my guess is that you had to be very practical about recovery and nutrition as well. You probably, I'm guessing there was a point in your life where you couldn't afford grass-fed meat shipped in from South of France. And this guy, I'm not saying you do that now, but-- - Let me tell you a story, man. - When I was a British champion, I was a big thing back then British champion, right? 3,000 people and audience packed out. We had buses coming from my gym, all this stuff, you know, air horns. British bodybuilding crowds are not like, they're pretty rowdy, they're not-- - I think the British are rowdy. - The Friday sport get pretty rowdy. - The pretty rowdy, if you see boxing in Vegas and there's a British fighter, they take over the whole place. So anyway, this great accolade on British champion now. And I went home, I got no car. I'm living in a council estate, it's like projects, you know, council estate. I got no car put in my bedroom. I don't even have proper bed, I just got a mattress. I got a TV that barely works. And I got a trophy. I'm like, wow, look, I'm British champion, but nobody gives a fuck really. Like, you know, I do, and the people that's in the bodybuilding community, but this hasn't translated into anything yet. It took me about five years of really like, you know, 100% dedication for me to turn pro. And the ironic thing is, I guess, like when you start and you got nothing, nobody's very interested and nobody wants to help you. And you start, when you become successful, then successful, people want to help you 'cause they want to help themselves, which is fair enough, it's a transaction, but until then, no. So I got my first car when it was 25. All my friends were driving 18, 19. But the funny thing is, I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything. I knew I was on this mission, and this in itself was so powerful, like nobody else had this mission that I was doing, which just to change my life, basically. And bodybuilding was the vehicle. And I think something that really helped me is I'm an avid reader. I have been since I was about 10 years old, and I can take in a lot of information on a subject if I'm very interested. I'll almost be get obsessed with it for a while, and then I might just see, I forget about that, go interested in something else. So all the guys that I was training with, they were like just watching videos and listening to other guys in the gym. I was reading Mike Men's, I was reading Arthur Jones, I was trying to figure it out for myself, which means you need a very independent kind of personality. So yeah, let me try to do a bit more, doesn't work finished. And the fact that I've got all this, every single workout from 1983 to 1997, written down, all the diets later on when I'm using an alabolog, what I'm using and how long, and all this stuff, so I could analyze it, see what's working, and what's not working. A lot of guys were like shooting in the dark, hoping they're gonna hit something, but they don't. And I didn't have time to waste, this was a mission. I didn't have skills, I didn't have a family, all this stuff. So bodybuilding was my road to change my life. Where it was going at first, I didn't know, but I knew it was going somewhere. I knew I could be very good at it. Did you have the sense, even before all this, that perhaps you were different or that you were destined to pursue something? 100%. 100%. 100%. From the, what's your earliest recollection of knowing that you were going to aspire to some very high peak? Well, the first thing I was into was Bruce Lee, right? So, you know, Bruce Lee, and then even I was impressed with this physique, then now I look at compared to a bodybuilder, it's very lean, but the abs and everything had that poster on a wall, you know, with the cuts down there and everything. So I was doing push-ups. Just my last year at school, I started getting bodybuilding magazines and doing a bit of weight training. So there was that then, I left home at 16, and I just didn't have the lifestyle to pursue it. And for some reason, I'm not doing this. I said, I'm not doing this until I can do it properly. And I always knew I was different, I guess, you know, but you didn't, I didn't know why and I didn't know where it was going, but I knew it was going somewhere. And it's a strange feeling through my whole process. I feel like I've done it before, almost, you know? Like it was destined, I wasn't a surprise. And the earlier years, it's like, I just knew I got to just put everything into this. I got to put everything into this. And I can't let anything distract me. 100% into this. So yeah, I knew I was destined for something and when I started doing bodybuilding, I was like, ah, so this is it, yeah? I don't know if you heard this story, but I got a little bit of trouble. Just rowdy guys, really. We got picked up on the street at the wrong time because there were some street riots in Birmingham, which we weren't involved with, but wrong place, wrong time, got sent to a detention center. And in there, they had weights and there was 300 guys. And like I was nearly the strongest guy in there. The only guy who was stronger me was like 50, 60 pounds heavier. And I was really lean. I had abs and everything. Everyone was like, wow, to physique. Even though prison officers in there were like, you should do something with this. So don't worry, I'm gonna. So that was another one like, hey, you've got something here. You know, it was a crossroads here. And I was like, I never want to be in a place like this again and lose my freedom. You literally become a number and you told me to get up and went to do this and those places suck. And I saw people in there that would, I knew they were destined to like, this is their life. Even they didn't care. Yeah, I know, but I don't give a fuck. I might be in jail, but this is just the life I've chosen. Good luck with that man, it's not for me, you know? So that again was like, hey, you need to do something with this. And when I left there, I didn't start training. I was like, I gotta get a job. I gotta get an apartment. I gotta get stability. And when I did, I was like, right, I start my bodybuilding journey. Right, down to day, the day. I still got it, man. What's in those notebooks? Everything from what you did for a warm-up, how you felt going into the. All the sets and reps warm up. How was feeling that day? Some days I was feeling overtrained and tired. Even though I was training three days a week, sometimes I had to back off the intensity because of the work and stuff like that. But how I was feeling and it's interesting if I look at my books over the years, the first ones are quite childish, got these little go-for-it, you know, mass and power. Kind of cool too. I'm glad to actually mention that. I've kept training logs inspired by you and by Mike for many years. And getting to read that kind of stuff, the kind of silly stuff. I mean, it captures the spirit of it at the time. I wouldn't forget half of the stuff that I did if I hadn't documented it. Even now, my guy's on social media was like, "When we're doing this exercise and when you just change to this one, I'm like, I don't know, man, I have to go back and look." And sometimes it's not as I thought it was when I go back. It was a little bit different. So it's great that I got all that written down and documented. And I used to have every month a review where I'm at and the goals for the next month. Try to make them realistic, but you know, that goal is in mind for the next month. Super methodical. Very methodical, analytical logic. Do you get that from one of your parents or be cut to go in the opposite direction of your parents? Well, my mother was actually quite very educated. She was private school and everything, but my dad was very working class, car mechanic and everything. But he managed to-- Perfect combo. He managed to, you know, I was young. I lost my father at 13 right from a heart attack. But he was a working class guy that managed to buy a small farm. He managed to learn to fly an airplane. I went in with my dad when I was like four or five years old. His flying four-seat sessners and everything like that. So I mean, he must have been a smart guy and very driven. It's about to do that as a working class guy. I imagine back in the 1970s flying airplanes and your work as a maintenance engineer at the Rover plant or something. I think for Americans, they don't realize how stratified the class system in England was in that time. It's very different. Very, very different. Absolutely. A working class guy flying an airplane. There was nobody else doing that. So he must have been a guy above average intelligence and my mom was as well. So I probably got the logical stuff from my dad, I would say. You know, my mom's more female, more emotional. My dad was probably very logical in his ways. And an engineer-- you know, engineering's about numbers and everything. So a lot of people ask me, what happened if you didn't lose your father when you were 13? You don't really ask the bodybuilder problem wouldn't exist. Because if life's comfortable, you won't put yourself through this shit, man. I mean, it's a lot of work, a lot of dedication, a lot of sacrifice. And over many, many years, it's not a short term thing to get from being starting bodybuilding to be a pro bodybuilder. It took me seven years. And that was quick. That was relatively quick. So seven years of absolute, this is my main focus of life. This is what I'm doing for seven years to get to be a pro. And then I want seven years as a pro as well. By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade. And indeed, that's true. The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet, while also providing support for a demanding life. 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With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can try our place with zero risk, and you can see why more than 1 million people have made the switch to our Place Kitchenware. I have two questions. One practical, one more related to your personal story. The practical one is one. Nowadays, there's an almost obsession online of young guys, teens, 20s, 30s, who immediately think they should be on testosterone enhancement, TRT going beyond TRT, getting on gear. How long gear for the folks that don't know is a verbiage for steroids? TRT, testosterone replacement therapy, lower dosages designed to bring things into upper normal range, in some cases a little higher. What, from the time you picked up a weight, maybe in this youth detention center, until the first time you went on gear, how long was that, and how much did you achieve doing the sorts of training you were talking about before? I want to separate this out from the competitive phase. In part, because frankly, I think, and I've been very open, I went on low dose TRT, I started when I was 45, about 125 milligrams a week. Same as you. Yeah, same as you. But I always tell people, they really, really, really should wait if do it at all. How long did you have without anything? Where's food, training, sleep, maybe some supplements, like some creatine, some protein power? Not as early as in 83, earlier in the year. I was 180, 185, but very lean. You can see some pictures of me. Yeah, you have those big joints. You have an athletic. I got very low body fat as well naturally. My son and my daughter, they both had abs and when I was 11 years old, very, very lean, pale skin, low body fat, thin skin, type of thing. So you wouldn't say, wow, look at that guy, he's big, but you'd say, wow, he's really cut this guy. That's how I started, 180. After six months, I think it was 195, and the gym owner put on a contest in Birmingham, local gym thing, and he was like, come on, go in a contest and I don't know. Okay. So I went in. No diet, no steroids, nothing. It was the first time as contest. I still got the pictures, but the two guys that I was competing as they came second and third I won, both of these guys were already on stuff. So I was able to beat them, not using anything, right? Because genetically, I'm better, I guess, I'm not saying in six months, I overtook them, I probably started ahead of them. So that was with nothing. I got up to 210. So I was just looking back because we did some social media posts with my early training. So I'm benching three plates aside for like three or four reps, and I want to go now into the IFBB and compete, which I know everybody's using, right? So I was 210 when I decided I'm going to do this competition and I did some debolt, 20 milligrams a day, about six weeks, and I switched to ANIVAR for the contest. So I went from 180 to 210, so that's 30 pounds. I put on in a half training or something, and I decided to do the competition. So in six weeks, I think on 20 milligrams of debolt, I went to like 230. You know, it was a big boost in six weeks, but I already put on 30 pounds without anything. And for me, it was always like, I'm going to do competitive bodybuilding, and I intend to make a career out of it. So I just want to be on the same playing field as everybody else. So I won the novice competition in the IFBB, and everyone was like freaking out. The guy who was the head of the federation who's also a judge at the Mysterio Limpia, and some other guys came backstage and said, where the hell have you come from? And why are you in the novice competition? I said, well, I'm from Birmingham, and it's my first competition in the federation. So I started at the bottom and I went, you're probably better than our best heavyweight. I'm like, no, come on. And they were laughing like this, kid. We want you to join the British team in two weeks time at the World Games, which is World Championship. So I went from a novice two weeks later to competing in the World Games against Berid and May, who became a top Olympian, Matt Mendez and all, who was the best amateur in USA at the time. And I got seventh place there. And I remember, like, I basically spent all my funds to get ready for this concert. I had nothing left. I had to buy a track suit, tanning lotion, like I was earning very little money. So this took all my money, and I broke, and I had to ask my brother-in-law, can you lend me like 20 pounds because I need to do this and get a taxi to the team selection. All right, so I went to the team selection. I got picked, but I was like, amongst all these guys, and I'm thinking, like, I just borrowed some money to get here. But they picked me for the World Games team. So I went quite uniquely, I think, from a novice competition to a World Championship in two weeks. So that's kind of the level I was at when I first started competing. I don't want to put words into your mouth, but do you think it's fair to say that for people who are not going to pursue competitive bodybuilding, that it's probably best to explore how far they can go with their training and good nutrition, and perhaps even without hormone replacement until they really need it. Or later, I mean, to me, it seems like given the health risks, unless there's sort of like boxing. Like, like, boxing is one of done some boxing, done some sparring. But at some point you realize, wait, if I'm not going to make money doing this, if this isn't my career, getting hit in the head is just not worth it, especially for my job. I'm not asking you to be a public health advisor, but you've been in this sport. A lot of young guys and gals are interested in looking better, feeling better, and going immediately to what peptides can I take. What, you know, should I be on HRT? Should I take Anivar and I've got my opinions, but you're the expert here. Well, it's my opinion and the way I looked at it was like, I'm going to do this as a sport, right? So I justified it because everyone else is doing it, and I did it as a professional. And 1990, so it was two times British champion, overall British champion in 1988. I got my pro card. And my first pro contest was nightive champions, which was probably the second or third, you know, below the mystery Olympia. Because those of you don't know, you can't just go into mystery Olympia, right? You have to win a pro show, a place in the top three as it used to be then. I'm not sure. Now they seem to give out so many pro cards. It's kind of lost its value, but then it was tough to get a pro card. So I said, look, I've been doing all this, yeah. I'm taking. steroids, which may have some negative effects on my health later on, may do. So I'm going to go to night of champions. If I don't get in the top five, I'm not good enough. So at that point, if that's the case, no longer justified to take the steroids, or compete, because I've gone as far as my genetics will allow me. As I observed, the history of bodybuilding, the guys that were great champions, they were great, like out the gate. They didn't get I don't know, 12th place in Mr Olympian, the next year winner. You got it? You already don't have it, right? That's what I thought. I'm going to be brutally honest with myself. I have a gym, I'm making okay money now. If I don't compete, I could open more gyms, put more time into that, have a young son. You know, they're kind of making a sacrifice of time and energy and everything, because I'm putting everything into this. So if I don't get in the top five in the night of champions, competitive careers over steroids are over. Do something else within the sport. Open more gyms or something like that. Anyway, the story is I got second, so I continued to do what I got to do as a professional and I feel it was justified because I was earning a lot of money, more money than anyone else I knew ever earned. But what's my advice if you were a 20-year-old guy and you were speaking to me and I'm giving you advice? Get as far as you can, naturally, and then look at it. But whatever gains you make by taking anabolic is a temporary situation. You will do so when you get off, right? So it's a merry-go-round. Once you get on the merry-go-round, you don't really want to get off because when you do get off, you start to lose all those gains, you start to feel mentally depressed because now your hormones are on the floor. So what you're going to do? Jump right back on again and it becomes this merry-go-round as far as I'm concerned, everybody should make their own choices in life and be able to do what they want to do. But keep that in mind. Is it worth it? Because negative, possible negative effects physically and also not talked about a lot mentally. I believe there's a lot of people in a sport with mental health problems, especially women now because they're in the high doses now, where before they really weren't. And we're in this age of instant gratification. Everybody wants everything now, right? And I see it a bit like this maybe from the guys' point of view. Well listen, women have embraced implants, right? They're having lip fillers and bow talks and all this shit. So why can't we take some antibiotics just to look good and have abs on the beach? Why not? Because of that. And ask yourself if it's worth it because this is a reality. You can't keep those gains. So you're probably going to be forced to continually do this over a long period of time. And that might be bad for your health. I seem to be in very good health. But I've changed my lifestyle and there are a lot of different things to kind of recover from the stress that I put on my body in a professional career. And I'm here today and I'm healthy and I'm successful and my business is good and I'm happy. But it could have been different. It was different for a lot of guys that I used to compete against. Yeah, a lot of them are dead. Yeah, so is it worth the risk? I mean, that's their question to answer, but I would say it is not, but that's just my opinion. Well, I'm struck again by how rational you were if I place in the top five, et cetera, I'll move forward if not very calculated. Very grounded. Yeah, so that was the first question. And we will return to some training things. But the second question relates to this thing that you mentioned about your dad. Had he not passed away young? A friend of mine, we were talking recently about having daughters versus sons. I won't provide the context for this, but and he said to me, he's got three daughters. And he's very happy with his three daughters. And he said, and he said, you know, the one thing about sons is they feel, I think it was talking about himself, they feel like they have to fill their father's shoes. There's going to be a phase where they're competing with their dad, no matter what. And my reflexive response was, and then I realized, listen, I went through all that stuff, all that stuff. And in many ways, my dad and I are in good terms now, but we had some choppy ears in there. But for sure, but now we're good. But the friction, I mean, that grew me a lot too. I mean, it forced me to work harder. I mean, there were probably some long nights that, you know, I just, I wasn't consciously tying it to like, well, I'm trying to, you know, outdo him. But I pushed myself to become somebody that was at least as, you know, successful in certain ways and ideally more. And so do you think this is a, this is a real situation can go two ways, right? I mean, you have a son now. So how do you think about this with him? I think you found it tough. He confines with my wife a little bit that he found it tough. Like, I don't try to compete with me in what I do because, but take the principles of discipline and hard work and he can apply that really to anything. But yeah, I think, you know, my son did some bodybuilding. I was, he was playing with the idea of a competitor, which he probably could have done quite well. But I said, look, you're a sensitive guy, a much more sensitive than me. I got thick skin. But let me tell you what will happen if you compete. You win. Of course he won his Dorian son. You lose. How can he lose his Dorian son? I said, either way, that's, he'd be prepared for that's going to be the reaction. So, you know, if you want to do it, I'll support you, but he decided not to get into the competitive side of things. What are your trains, people and stuff? So, you know, it's still, both of my kids are in the fitness world, let's say. But, competitive world is a different thing and there's very few people that can get to the top and make it work for them, you know. More people now because before you had to compete and you had to win and you had to be in the magazines. Now, a lot of people can make money on line coaching or whatever it is. So, there's more avenues now that you can go into to make money in the what's called now the fitness industry is so much bigger than when I was competing, but I would say, purist bodybuilding is less people doing it. More people going to the gym and doing fitness in general, but I think bodybuilding per se was more popular in the '80s and '90s because it was all new. And there was, unless there was no crossfit, there was no MMA, there's, you know, things have changed since then. There was no fitness, Mr. Olympia, there's no, I don't know, they've got so many classes now. So, there's many more things for people to do than, you know, maybe their figure is not worth it, to be a competitive bodybuilder, if you can learn an income online and not, you know, put yourself online in competition. So, things have changed a lot since then. Yeah, and the bodies that are in movies have changed tremendously. The average size of a male or female, the shape is it's so much more bodybuilder-esque now. It's like a huge huge. It's mainstream now. When I started bodybuilding in 1980s, I don't think the general public really knew about steroids. You know, they got a little incline when Ben Johnson got a positive. Now, everybody's mainstream, right? Everybody knows about steroids and I think it's seen as by males as a cosmetic enhancement, just like females put in blush bands or Botox and whatever they put in their lips and everything to make that change. So, it's mainstream. You got rappers, you got movie stars, like they want to get in shape for a movie and come on, man, and it's not happening. And two months that transformation without some chemical help, which, you know, they're earning millions and millions in the movie. So, maybe it's worth it for them, of course. You mentioned you have a thick skin. One of the things that got me to learn about you early on, because frankly, I was involved in other things, a little bit of martial arts, some soccer, some things. And bodybuilding to me wasn't something I really wanted to pursue as a sport, but I wanted to put on muscle-outs to all skinny kid. That's what led me to mencer and how I learned about your training, discovered what you were doing, and then really learned to extract what I think is the best of bodybuilding for somebody who doesn't want to do it. Like, how are they training, how are they eating? What are they doing that's separate from the drugs that I can benefit from? This kind of thing. And to be fair, TRT can be very useful to treat depression and other things for men and in some cases, even women. We'll get back to that, but I want to just kind of frame this in a certain way. However, you know, one of the things that I think drew me to what you were doing at the time is that you had this kind of like mellow sort of, I would say kind of like quiet, thick skin stance. We also have kind of commonalities through our music tastes, so I saw that and I recognized certain things. In the tattoos, the punk rock thing, yeah, away music and that kind of thing. And so you go, "Oh, here's somebody who's kind of different than the rest of this community." But when people see the videos of you training, we'll put some links to those. It's so striking because you're like this, but then in the moment of a set, it's like, I mean, intensity doesn't quite explain. explain it. It's like, and I'm curious because people can see those videos. What was going on in your head? Were you going into the set, through the set, were you thinking about, I'm just guessing your dad, how you were an underdog, were you just thinking about the muscle? What were you using besides listening to loud music and intensity doesn't come from nowhere? It comes from someplace. What's your internal narrative at those times? Well, I always prepared myself before I went to the gym, just walked through the doors casually. I'd review my training before I went there. This is what I did last week. This is what I wanted to do today, and I would sit and do a visualization. So I'd have specific clothes for the day and like OCD maybe, and I used to have this thing which seems strange to me now. I used to iron my clothes before I went to the gym. They had to be ironed, they had to be thin. I just read a study how ironing clothes really lowers your cortisol by about 40%. I didn't know that. I was just doing it. I trained with my friend in New York, he said, "What the fuck are you doing, man? Just put your t-shirt and no, no, no, no, I got to iron it." There was a whole game preparation going on to get me in maybe OCD, maybe too much, but it worked for me. So I review, go to the gym and have my targets, and I use a special type of motivation. It's called "Fuck you motivation." Fuck you to all the teachers at school. Let's say you couldn't get anywhere. Fuck you, fuck anyone. So I'm going to show you. Fuck you. So fuck you motivation. It's a great one. Whatever you got inside you, anger, negative emotions, use it all. Use it all like fire. And then when I go home, I'm like, "Oh, I'm chilled. I've slayed dragons in the gym. I've hacked people up with my sword. And it's like a form of mastery over oneself, mastery over the whole thing with the dieting as well for competitions. Maybe I went a little bit overboard with it and came down a little bit too much because then it was like mastery over my instincts of one of each and I do that. No, I'm deciding here. I'm in control. And maybe this worked against me a bit as well because I would be like going to the world. I don't care if I feel a little, "I'm going through it." So yeah, I used all these anger, negative emotions, whatever it is. I'll show you. I'm going to make it. I'm going to do this. So whatever works for you, but for me, that worked. You know, the anything negative of turn it into something positive, you know, it's transforming the negative energy which could be destructive to myself or maybe other people around me, taking it, alchemy, you know, changing it into something else. So I used all that negative feeling, negative emotions and I stayed in Birmingham as well while I was Mr. Olympia for six years. More opportunities here and everything but more distractions as well. So I wanted to stay in the same gym, try to keep that same attitude even though I got more money in the bank and I'm driving them as aiders instead of chumper on the bus, right? But I wanted to keep that, that's why I didn't move over here. A lot of people asked me why I didn't go to the States because the industry is there. But by the time I got to be Mr. Olympia, I could kind of dictate things. So I did want to want to do which was keep my head down and keep that hunger going. I love the transmutation of anger and the everyone's got their stories of the, and I can remember in the third grade someone said something about the jacket that my mom gave me that data. These little things, they don't bother me anymore, but there were times when we can layer and use it for fuel. Yeah, take that anger, the negative thing, whatever, change it into something positive. And we were discussing earlier like, do we know any elite level athletes that came from a very comfortable, wealthy family? I don't know any. I'm not saying there isn't, but I don't know any. Maybe you need that. You need that motivation. You know, you want to make something, you want to make something of your life, you want to prove to yourself and everybody else, you know, that you've got something. And I just, when I was young, I looked at life around me. I said, "What is this? I'm going to get a mate, have some children, go to work, come back." For a lot of people, this is great. Maybe the love of the family and everything like that, but I didn't have that. Even when I had a family, it wasn't a family. My mom and dad were kind of together because it was the 60s, but I got the idea that, you know, that was because of me, maybe. So we never sat down and had a meal as a family. I never. So we were, my mom and dad were married, but they were leaving kind of separate lives. And I was in the middle somewhere, I guess. Yeah, so if I didn't have that motivation, you know, maybe my dad would have taught me to be a maintenance car engineer or something. I don't know. It would be a whole different story, I'm sure. I have this theory that barring accident or injury that we kind of have an unconscious sense of how long we're going to live. I started thinking about this when I read the biography of Steve Jobs, who, you know, he was really on a mission early on. And kind of an odd guy. He was in the area I grew up in and, you know, this whole thing with LSD, but also screen therapy, but also he thought that objects had personality and things like that. He's quite different. He was doing something different. He saw the world very differently. And he changed the world. Like a Marhadeem, he absolutely changed the world. If you learn about him, you realize that he had some sense that he might not live a very long time. And he died quite young, pancreatic cancer. Is it a sense or is a premonition? Is it? Yeah. And you can edit these thoughts, I think. Because I always had this bit of a fate list thing maybe because my dad died so young. So my dad died at 42. My mom quickly met another guy that she wanted to marry. And he also died at 44. So I saw two guys. Okay, they both smoked 40 cigarettes a day, which was usual at that time and don't exercise and drink. I'll know. Not to get enough sleep and no sunlight. All these things. But, you know, I've changed this over the years because now I'm 63, going on 64 and appear to be very healthy. I feel great and I'm looking forward to the future. And I don't know, none of us know, right? I'm just trying to live the best life that I can live day by day. And, you know, be the best version of myself and have a good quality of life and appreciate every day at a time. I mean, this is what we learn from dogs, yeah. They don't live in the future. They don't live in the past. They're just there all the time. They're there as a reminder. We're both dog lovers. So we're talking about that earlier on. So we don't know how long we're going to live. Just make the most of it every day. And I said I read a lot. So I was this book by a lady that works in endcare. So she interviewed all these people that they know where they're dying, right? They're on the way out and what they regret and all this stuff. Mostly it was not doing the things they love, not telling the people that they love that they love them enough. Not one fucking person said, I wish I worked harder or anything like that. You know? So I think we have to just make the most of the most of each day and appreciate it. Because it's, you know, it's going to end, right? We're going to move on. I don't believe we stop. We just move on. Yeah. I think we continue on in some, some, we're already there. We're already everywhere at the same time. And that's what I think. We're just aware of this. We're on this channel right now. We're on this radio, the radio wave. I certainly subscribed to that. And I want to get into it kind of your exploration of psychedelics and consciousness and then moving on from it, which is not everyone is aware of. But before we do that, despite the living for the day by the day, you had this sense that like you're going to put everything you have into something and you went for it. In this, I'm realizing how very logical like if this, then that, if that, then not this, it wasn't this. It wasn't do or die. It was maybe do or die during the training. But it was when the feedback signal was there's a real opportunity here. You put everything in. Exactly. But you weren't foolish with your life resource. No, I did a step by step, you know? And anabolic sort of token of azamete was, you know, is fairly low. So I don't think there was that much risk there. When I was becoming Mr. Olympia, it went up another level and growth hormone was not available early 80s. So that came in later 80s into the 90s and so on. But I don't think there's much danger in that. There's dangerous in the body weights, high blood pressure, inflammation, diuretics. Diuretics, I mean that's death sentence if you overdue that and it has happened. The guy, I mean hit me, the guy that I got second to at my first night at Champions from Ahamed Benazisa, I don't know if you remember him. He was a short guy but amazing, a lot of muscle. And he passed away on a tour because it was doing extreme things with water and diuretics. And they actually did introduce testing for diuretics, 1996 in the Western Olympic because people were concerned about this. There was a few guys that died just trying to get dehydrated and get in condition. But I think somebody failed to test and challenges it legally and it didn't stand up so then they just dropped it. They did steroid testing interestingly in 1990. How did I go? Sorry. You know it's funny, there used to be a big deal to try and figure out if somebody taking stuff or not. I mean there's just these telltale signs, right? A certain leanness, a certain, you know, protrusion of some vascular in the neck was, I mean you can tell when people are on and when they're not, right? And although there are a couple genetic freaks out there like yourself when you're younger, my friend Nassima who works with Mark Bell, who you know, she's got really long muscle bellies, he's naturally lean and he's a real athlete and according to him, I think as of last time we spoke, you know, he hasn't touched anything and people would, you know, die to have his kind of musculature and but he trains hard. He does everything but it's kind of scary to think what happens when guys like that would go on. I think those are the genetic. Look on my in 1990, Mr. Olympia. I don't know because they didn't publish the weights. But Lee Haney still won it. He was maybe a bit lucky to beat Lee LeBrader. But I'd say Haney was probably 20 pounds down. I mean the fans were like, like, this, we want to pay like a couple hundred dollars to see, you know, guys that are a lot less than before, we want to see the state or more. You know, nobody wants to see a guy run a hundred meters in 11 seconds when they've seen under 10 seconds. So I think the people that control the sport, they realize this is not going to fly. So they dropped it. It's so interesting because, you know, bodybuilding is an unusual sport. But for that matter, so is free solo rock climbing. We had Alex Honolud on here. He, you know, climbed El Cap, probably the most dangerous athletic feat of all time. One slip and fall in your dead. He said, you can make mistakes but not slip and fall mistakes. Things like that, things like bodybuilding, things like what we see from the Red Bull athletes. I do think it serves an important role in getting human, us as the rest of us to think about what's possible with the human body technology and pharmacology. And I do think that from each extreme sport, even skateboarding, a sport I was involved in early on. By the way, street skateboarders putting their, their selves at extreme risk, only one, one guy, wears a helmet. Yeah. One. Okay. On vert, they wear helmets, right? But on the street, they don't do it. Why? Because it's not part of the culture. It would like be asking professional bodybuilders to stop taking gear. It's not going to happen. It's embedded in the culture to see how far you can take something in a certain dimension. I think these things provide a useful role in getting the rest of humans to understand what's possible. And there's usual, usually, excuse me, valuable takeaways like resistance training. Absolutely. Nutrition. The nutrition guidelines for the U.S. just came out today. They, it basically inverted the few food pyramid, limited amount of grains, fruits, vegetables, meat, eggs. It's funny. It's basically what has been talked about in the fitness bodybuilding community for a very long time, insulin management, low sugar. I mean, it's so fine because now everyone's like, oh, you know, this is so outrageous. But that was pulled from the sport that you're describing. So for people who might not be familiar with the names, because our listenership is broad, I think it's important for people to understand how something like fitness or health progresses. It pulls these things from the pioneers that we're willing to frankly go pioneer. It's done. It doesn't come from university studies. And I say that as a university professor, it comes from the real world and then back through. We're probably 20 years ahead. I don't know about the U.S. but I went to a conference in London and it was a national health service. How they're now going to study more nutrition because in their five or six years, they do, they do two hours studying nutrition, which is like, I mean, you can't even get high school level understanding in two hours. So I was pleased to hear that now they're, you know, they're going to look at nutrition as part of the health thing. But it was funny because they were promoting a plant based diet. But you know, unfortunately, it's going to lack this and this and this. So we need to reinforce it with supplements. It's all in the animal based diet. But that raises cholesterol. So that's bad, but we'll have a very deficient diet and have to supplement it. I felt like it wouldn't be better just to take the diet that has the nutrients in it in the first place. So I see competitive bodybuilding is like the peak of an iceberg. You know, it's an extreme is right at the top, yeah. But the basic things that we learn can apply to somebody that wants to improve their health. So in an extreme level, we could say, maybe it's unhealthy. But if you take the basic principles, it can be very healthy. Having your hormones in the correct place, building muscle mass, there is incredible things that you can do for your health. And you won't be needing to rely on medications to control your blood sugar and your blood pressure and whatever else your body can do it itself, you know. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking element makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an element packet dissolved in it. I also drink element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try element, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. This is perhaps a good moment to tell a brief story about our mutual friend Mike Mencer. I'll keep it really brief. I paid for an online consult with Mike. It was like a hundred bucks. I had to wire it to him, which was a fortune for me. It was like all my money. I was in high school, right? I was working at this old skateboard shop selling shoes. Maybe wasn't all my money, but it was significant. I had to wire it to him. He calls and my mother was like, why is this grown man calling? Who's this grown man calling the house? He laid down the program. He barked when he spoke. I don't think people were like, he literally barked when he spoke, he twerred. But there was a real kindness way back somewhere in that bark and the methods worked. But he gave me some, we stayed in touch and for a couple reasons. First of all, he emphasized on that call, but in subsequent calls, stay away from antibiotics. I didn't ask. He just said it. He said, and he said, learn to enjoy training really fucking hard. Those were his words. It's a beautiful thing. I was like, all right. I was coming from skateboarding. He's like, I'm used to getting hurt. But he's like, he learned to enjoy training really fucking hard his words. And then he also encouraged me to read. He was like obsessed with philosophy. He was obsessed with the end-rand objective, it's a epistemology. A lot of that stuff I found to be somewhat interesting, but I mean, he was super dedicated to that. But he also embedded in me. He said, he said, you seem like you like learning. Maybe you should focus on school. And at the time, I was kind of rebellious against my dad. And I took his advice because it was coming from him. And then when I got to school, we stayed in touch. I was in Santa Barbara. And he said, just remember, I'll never forget this. He said, just remember, 90% of what you're learning is completely wrong. And the worst part is they don't realize they're wrong. And I said 90% and he said 90% and he said, but the 10% that's right, those are the gems that you build off of. And I thought, man, and now, you know, 30 or more than 30 years later as a professional scientist and now a podcaster, I can tell you, having spent a lot of time running studies, writing grants, reviewing, like I've been deeply in that community, he's exactly right. And so he was wrong about a great many things, but he had some real gems embedded in that like barking of a voice. He's yelling at you basically. So anyway, I'm grateful to him And then he also said, "You'll love this." He also said, "And also, you're not Dory and Yates, so don't try to be." He said, "A lot, guys, right now." This is when the grainy photos of you will put a link to this. When that transformation happened, when those photos came out, I think people saw that, and it sparked this aspirational thing, and millions of people like, holy shit, that's possible, but he said, "Listen, you're not that, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't enjoy training hard. You're not that, but you could do." Take the benefit. Take the benefit. That's a really good coach. The last thing I needed was somebody to tell me, "Hey, listen, do this because he needed someone around to talk to or something like that." Anyway, that's Mike. Let's talk about those photos, 'cause I think, and we'll put them up, we'll put a link to them. What happened in that one year? And why do you think that that sort of, kind of transformation is so much different than somebody getting big, just big, or somebody getting real strong, or somebody, like something happened in that one year trend that before and afters, that changed the way people think about fitness in general. Not just the sport of bodybuilding, but fitness, like what the human body can do. Yeah, it was a breakthrough level for the sport, as people say, before Dorian, and after Dorian, the sport changed. And my approach was unique as well. And Joe Weed, you know, he had his way of doing things, right? This was the guy, by the way, folks that ran muscle and fitness and a bunch of other magazines. He basically took the sport of bodybuilding and popularized it into what is now the health and fitness industry. He was a brilliant marketer, you know? Joe Weed, a train of champions, he didn't know nothing about training, but he knew about marketing. Here's the thing, right? 1992, Mr. Olympia, and then 93. So people think that between 92 and 93, on stage, 17 pounds of muscle I put on in one year. It's not really true. In 92, six weeks out from the Mr. Olympia, I was probably five pounds, six pounds, less than the next year, all right? But I knew Lee Haney wasn't going to be there. I knew that the guys I was competing against were smaller than me. So I said, I don't mind sacrificing some size to get like super shredded, like as shredded as the smaller guy, right? So I was coming down, coming down, coming down, thinking I get, you know, more shredded. Maybe I did a little bit, but I realized analyzing because we don't have no iPhone or nothing, right? But I used to take pictures every week, take the camera roll to the, you know, on weight, from to develop it and all that. And then look, how did that look? And I looked at 92, six weeks out. I said, I pretty much contest ready then, but I just kept dieting, dieting. So I sacrificed a lot in 92 and I determined that I wouldn't do that in 93. I still did it a little bit because I tend to overdo things, right? So 93, I would say I put on six or seven pounds of muscle. As a Mr. Olympia, this is outstanding, right? Because you're already at a high level. But I didn't sacrifice 10 pounds of muscle that I wasted the year before. So it appeared that I put on 17 pounds of pure muscle in a year. I didn't, I just simply didn't sacrifice as much as I did the year before. So it was a great year of progress. And the pictures that were taken in 92 were taken a week after the contest. So I had lost that muscle. So if you compare that one to that one, it looks like, wow, it's night and day. It wasn't really. I got pictures from 92 where I'm almost as big as 93. But nobody saw those pictures. And the pictures that I talk in 93 was my friend with the camera. I said, hey, it would be good if you come up and did those pictures that we did last year in the same spot in a gym. Yeah, let's do that. And when he showed them the afterwards, even I was freaked out. What? And he's like, I'm sending these to the magazines. They were not meant to be, they were meant to be just for my record. They had about a camera than me. So that's what I wanted them for. That's why I got my underwear on and my socks. Yeah? Because I never think these posters are going to be published, right? But he sent them to Weeder. And the editor at The Weeder magazine was Peter McGoff. He was English, so we were friends. So he sent them to Peter McGoff and Peter said, "All the guys are coming to the office and they know I'm friends with you." So they're looking for something. So how's it going? He said, "Oh, I got these very casually. I've got these pictures. We'd like to see them." He said, "I put them on the desk." He said, they went white. They just went and just stood there shaking the headlight. It's on for a second then. I mean, six weeks out, everyone gave up when they saw those pictures, more or less. How did it feel to be at one point an underdog? And then you're the winner. Well, hold on. Before I was a winner, very difficult because I had this underdog thing. I'm from the streets and nobody thinks I can do this. And I'm from England, that all American and this and this and this, that's against me, theoretically. So I thrived on that. You know, fuck you, motivated. As I said, I'm going to show you. So I got the second to Lee Haney, but then he retired. So now the title's open and logically I'm the favourite. And actually, I struggled with that for a while. First of all, it was like, I'm the favourite now. I don't have that underdog thing. I don't know what to do now. And then I was like, so I'm probably going to be Mr. Olympia. It's a real, you know, when I went against Haney, I wanted to try to win, but I was a new guy and, wow. So I can be Mr. Olympia and then I just kind of turned it around in my head. Yeah, but why not, man? Somebody's got to be Mr. Olympia and do you know anybody that's dedicated themselves to the craft, the way you have absolutely not. So yeah, god damn it, I deserve it. And this took about a week to like change this whole point of view, where I was comfortable going as the favourite because yeah, I'm going to win, so I should be the favourite. But I was struggled with it, man, because the whole time I was underdog, even when I was in England, I'm not social, so I didn't talk to the judges or socialise or do anything. I was like, you know, who is this guy? Why is it like that? Just comes here and disappears. I was interested in socialising or talking or trying to get favours and just do my thing, how you know? Well, dopamine is all about the pleasure of pursuit, not the pursuit of pleasure. And the problem with reaching a goal line is for many people, they don't know what to do at that point. In fact, one of the coaches for the Boston Celtics, who used to be a former chess prodigy, Josh Wadeskin, was on here and he said, you know, it's very different when you're defending a championship. You're now the defending champion as opposed to it's you've been climbing up exactly. Exactly. I'm going to knock him off. Oh, now you're there. Now we want to try to knock you off. Once you hit the peak, because I think the reason I'm asking is I think this is important for many people who are on the climb, want to be on the climb, want the peak. Once you're at the peak, sounds like you did a very good job of rotating your mindset to no one's going to take this away from you. Like a bulldog. And don't get comfortable. Don't get comfortable. Like the Rocky movie. Remember Rocky movie? When he gets comfortable, he's got the big house and everything. It starts getting and they get Mr. T coming along, the bad ass from the ghetto. Kick in his ass because he got too comfortable. So I always remember that. I'm just going to stay here training the gym with the same guys I train with. They don't fucking treat me like a superstar or nothing. You know, they know I'm the man, but we're friends with him, friends for years. They know me. Keep my feet on the ground. If I came here, I potentially could have made more income, but it probably would have lasted shorter. So in the long run, I probably would have made less because just too many distractions. I wanted to keep my way away from everything. And it's different days than everything is in magazines. So with the magazines, I would come here, doing the Mr. Olympia, do one week of intensive photograph sessions video, everything for the magazines. So they have enough material for a year. They're not simply disappear and go home and nobody would seem. There's no social media. There's no, you don't need to keep up the constant flow of attention in order to earn income. I own my prize money. I got my contracts. I go home and start working again. And I loved it. You know, I loved having that mission, but I can tell you something. It's very difficult to find a picture of me smiling because I was so intense in this tunnel. And at the end, there was no joy in it. Like the last year, 97, I remember getting ready for the contest. I'm like, wow, this feels like Groundhog Day. I've done this so in process so many times and I started to think this is starting to feel like a job. I mean, it was, but it was a passion more. It was a bit of both, right? But now it's starting to feel like a job and I start to think about what am I gonna do after this because it's starting to, I don't wanna feel like that, you know? - Sounds like I'm just joking you, but I'm telling you that's a very wise perspective because a lot of people don't wanna let go. They don't see themselves in anything else and therefore they don't know what to do. Also, when you reach a certain level in anything, it becomes easier to just make a little bit of more money over here. - Yeah. - I mean, you know. - People will just pay you to be in the room. - You're the king though. - You're the king, right? So maybe you don't wanna give that up. So yeah, it was tough and I kind of observed a lot of athletes from different sports, how they really struggle. Because yes, you can still go to the German lift weights, but why are you doing it now? That absolute tunnel that you put yourself in, like you go in a battle every day for this goal, that in itself is a high. The dopamine, as you say, as a chase, I mean, a competition is once a year, right? For me at least it was once a year. So it's the whole year that you know. - It's that no more. - Aiming on that target. I can see that day, the whole year. I'm thinking about that day, like I'm in a tunnel. Probably my best friend is like, it's great to hang out with you now, because you're in the room. He said, I'd be with you before, but I'm a well-in-the-ware that your mind was not there. Like, you know? Now you're like, yeah, now I'm enjoying life. Then I couldn't afford to really enjoy it. Like, I'm on a mission here. I'm in a war or whatever I had in my head. But it's a huge part of my life. Without that, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. Now I wouldn't be, you know, would have met my wife, she's a competitor as well, so many things. So I knew I had to do it. And now it's obvious why. And I think, I mean, I had people coming up to me with tears in their eyes. Many people saying, bro, I know you don't know me, but you saved my life. You know, just something you said or you did or inspired me and this is like fucking, this is worth more than the Mr. Olympia trophy. So I did it for myself. It was a selfish pursuit. It's bodybuilding. It's all about you, yeah. But now it's changing to something else where I can use my position, my influence and at my age, my life experience to help and inspire many people. And maybe that's the whole point of the thing, ultimately, you know? There was a plan you weren't aware of. Yeah, absolutely. I just know I had to do it. Not I want to. Like I have to. Like my life depends on this. That was my mentality. Well, I certainly get that feeling and I can say for myself and many others that you have really inspired me. I had no, as I said, no aspirations of becoming a bodybuilder, but the idea that I could strengthen my body and most importantly do things differently than everyone else said. And it know that it works. I think that as much as the titles that you've achieved and your backstory is super impressive, and all of that stands forever, right? You're on the rush more of bodybuilding, that's for sure. This notion that you went about it differently, right? Like you said, you weren't out in California. They called you the shadow because you disappear and then come back the way you trained, the low volume high intensity training. I don't think people realize just how opposite that was to everything that was being thrown at people. And so what it told me was that one should trust experience and try things at the margins safely because oftentimes there's real pearls there. And when there is, you have to discard of everything else you hear. And I hear I'm talking about fitness, but I've seen this in my science career. In media and podcasting, you know, the number of people that told me like don't do a podcast, like you know, they're going to what close family members and scientists don't be like what are you doing? And it's like now they're coming to me asking, hey, do you have a job because I want to get out of this science thing? It's a grind. Oh, no, it's, it's, and like you said, you get, you catch so much friction early on. There must be something that pulls iconoclast forward. It's like this, you said I have to do it. Just by everything else that's happening. Doesn't matter what's happening, man, I had to do it. And day by day, I was very conscious. I need to do my best today, every day, every day, every day. And in that tunnel. And also, you know, post-career, I talk about my experiences then and depression and so on. This can affect anybody and actually affects a lot of athletes from that extreme, you're in the extreme tunnel, stress, goals. And then it's suddenly gone. So you don't have this goal that was like, in a way, giving you a lot of dopamine. You can go to the gym, but there's no, there's no purpose now, really. I know someone whose child just went off to university. And they were so committed as a single parent that they're in a little bit of an existential crisis. Yeah, they don't have that. Who am I without that role? And they'll figure it out. But I think it's, it's actually, it's this identity thing. So where's that boundary between? You need to identify with something as it being you and you are it in order to really go to great heights and anything. But then you also have to be able to dissociate from that identity piece. Well, that's the question. Who am I? That was the question. Who am I now? What am I going to do with life? What am I supposed to do? I was only 35. You know, and I'm retired. It's like, you know, when a guy retires at 60, even if he's just been working in a bank or whatever, it's very often that they get depressed because they don't have, they're going to work every day and they don't have this, you know, it's not a mission, but they don't have this routine anymore. They don't know what they're supposed to do with their time. Imagine the intensity of an athlete, and then that's not there anymore. So it took me time to change the mindset from, oh, look what I've lost. And I don't know who I am anymore, because I was the king and now I'm not, or whatever. To like, yeah, but there was a lot of things I couldn't do then. Like my life was so restricted then. I wouldn't even go out if I'm going to get back after 1030 because I got to be at bed at 11. I mean, this was all, yeah, it wasn't just for competition. Now I'm, you know, doing fairly well financially. I don't have to do anything that I don't want to do. And I can go and I've always been in love with animals of wildlife. And I used to sponsor mountain gorillas in Rwanda and Uganda, because there was only 600 of them in the world. So I used to sponsor them. So one of the first things I did was went on a safari out to Uganda, gorilla trekking in the mountains. And I couldn't do that before. I mean, maybe I could, but in my mind, I couldn't. I don't want to take the time off. So it started to open up more possibilities slowly, but it probably took me a couple of years to start to come to terms with it. I mean, I had a business. You had kids too, right? I had a son here at that point who was coming to end of school age. I had a business, but it's like, you know, it's not exciting. It's not that passion. So I decided I can do lots of other things. And slowly, I started to get comfortable with it. And whatever I want to be, you know, I'm not a Mr. Olympia. You're not a scientist. It's what you do. It's not who you are, right? It's what you're doing at the point of time. So it was a whole journey of exploration. And I've always been very good at why. You know, 21 years old, I started bodybuilding. Why? Why is that the best way to train? Just because everyone's doing it, am I sure? Try to doubt? No, it's better to train more briefly. I get better results. So fortunately, they always had the independence of thought, even though the guys at the gym say I'm wrong. I'm like, OK, you're right. Thank you. It's really interesting because, you know, we've created this little backdrop, this kind of ghost of Mike Menser. And for those of you who know him, he barked when he spoke. He was a real iconoclas. He carried this bitterness for never having become Mr. Olympia. I think Mike was too rigid in his thoughts. You've got to be a little bit flexible. Yes, mostly, who was right, but maybe for this guy is-- you know, it got to be a little bit flexible. And I think it was a bit too extreme in the end, like training once every 10 or 12 days and so on. And he became unhealthy, ready, smoked. Yeah, there's open about it. I didn't understand-- Yeah, infest-- I still don't understand it. I still don't understand-- I understand ex bodybuilders or athletes that don't want to maintain their peak. Of course, it's ridiculous. You can't, as you get older. But I didn't understand somebody that was in health, fitness, bodybuilding that suddenly didn't want to exercise and got overweight and smoked cigarettes and so on. I didn't really understand that. That was one thing I didn't get with Mike. He was very like pissed off about the Mr. Olympia or the R1 in 1980 and got this illusion with a sport and he carried around with them. I mean, he was one of the first conversations we had when the first met. He told me Arnold is not going to like me and I said, "Well, not that I really care, but why?" And you think that. And it's like because you're better than him. Well, it's debatable. But let's say if I was, why would Arnold give a fuck? Because his neck and move is 20 million. I wouldn't give a shit if I was him. He's like, "You don't understand Arnold." So, you know, he was carrying this still around with him. It wasn't healthy, I guess. I don't know and I'm not a psychologist, but I'm an adventure that he wanted to be a winner. But the winner more than he probably loved the fitness piece and the training piece. And I say that because it sounds like I'm name dropping here, but I'm fortunate to be very good friends with the great Rick Rubin, right? And Rick has worked with so many amazing artists and he'll tell me stories sometimes about people who really didn't make music or do comedy because they loved music and comedy. They wanted to be loved. When they got maybe attacked about a song not being as good as their last song, it crushed them. And he would say, "Just go back and make music." Yeah, they were. And this is one of the things that makes Rick so brilliant. But then he eventually, he would share these stories in private, of course, that some people aren't doing the thing for the thing. It's about they weren't loved as a kid or they would need the adoration. And so it's not, maybe Mike could, we're speculating here, but could, smoke cigarettes and let himself be out of shape because it wasn't really about bodybuilding. He just maybe needed to be a champion so he could validate something we don't know, right? But I always got the impression with Mike that it wasn't really anything to do with health. I mean, it's not at competitive level. Let's say maybe it could be. But you can be healthy with it. But I love to train, man. I mean, it doesn't matter what it is. I could hike, I could ride a bike, I could do Pilates, I could do yoga, you know, done boxing, don't loads of things. But I just like to exercise and I like to feel good. And it's nothing competitive anymore. It's like this is my vehicle that I've got to experience life in a physical reality. This is it. If this isn't working well, I'm not going to have much fun here and not going to have good quality of life. And what do I want for the next, you know, have a long, I want to be functional and be able to do these things that I love to do. And I want to be around and be healthy for my kids. And I just love to exercise, man. I do something every day. Different things. Not lifting weights. I do that maybe a couple of times a week, moderate weights, because I don't want to, I've got injuries. I've got a torn bicep on this side, a torn tricep tendon and some shoulder issues. I don't have any pain or anything. But it's just mechanically. My right side is stronger than my left. So I feel like I have a lot of pain. You look lean and strong. Yeah, I'm lean. I'm strong. I don't push too much with a weight. And you kept your height. You know, a lot of people who don't train, I didn't keep my height. Really? I got taller. No, I posted about a month ago, six weeks on my page, just teasing people. Because I went to get some more throttics in my shoes, you know, to balance out. And the guys got the measuring thing. So I just stood on it said you 183. I never been more than 18. Matrix system folks. Yeah. Yeah. It's like six foot. I was 10 5 10 and a half, 5 11 maybe. So did I physically grow bone? No, that's what I thought. Because I'm 6 6 1. I heard you're 5 10. Yeah. Walked in thinking maybe people usually lose a little bit of height, unless they train real hard and they make sure to take care of themselves. And then I walk in and yeah, you're about six feet. Yeah. But the thing is why? Because I've been doing Pilates and functional training and resetting the shoulders back, my posture is much better. So I'm standing straighter, which gives me an extra inch of height. So I've actually got taller. No, I haven't taken huge amounts of growth hormone. I've suddenly grew when I was 60 years old. It's just my posture and the way I stand, there's less curvature shoulder there. So you lose a bit of height because when you lift and your pecs get bigger and your legs shoulders rotate forward, you're trying to hunch forward. So you're sitting a little bit lower. I didn't even know. I was like, measure myself. I thought, wow, that's just because I'm standing straighter and my shoulders are back. They're lost that cervical arch. It's more straighter now. And we call the text neck for kids. Yeah, head shoulder shoulders forward. Yeah, you know, boxes have it because they're always like forward with the shoulders. So I've just got my posture really good. I've done yoga for like seven years. I've done Pilates, do some functional training. So it's all about getting this thing into the best shape. I don't have any pain joint pains. I'd hit replacement like 14 months ago, which is great. And you're just on the train for what I need. What do I need right now? I need some good cardio, but not excessive. So I do some sprints and some bikes outside. I do a little weight training in order to maintain not trying to build nothing, just trying to make people are going to want to know. I don't even have a split, man. I go in. I generally do some upper body ones, weak and some lower body ones, pushing, pulling, something. Yeah, I do, you know, things that I can do with chest and shoulders is very light because of the pushing. So I do some dumbbell press. Any compound movements for your lower body? At this point, no, because my legs are really big, like because I didn't have any injuries on the lower body, I think I've maintained a lot more muscle mass here. So I do bike. I do some sickle Bulgarian squats with lightweight. So I can do one side at a time. But like heavy leg presses and things like that, why? Well, why would I do it? It's because potentially risking an injury and yeah, you can leg press a ton of weight, but you can't touch your toes. What's the point? You know, when you're also maintaining some muscle that you've laid down for many decades, right? You're going to go anywhere as long as it gets a little bit of stimulation. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, function. Last year, I became a function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. 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Function currently has a weight list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to function. For people that are interested in longevity or maybe a little bit quote unquote lighter bone, do you think they should emphasize cardio more in strength, less or the opposite? Whereas you are able to get away with doing quite a lot of cardio, pilates and yoga, but you don't need much resistance training. We don't talk about this anymore. It used to be endomorph, ectomorph, and so more. Nobody talks like that. I had excessive amounts of muscle mass. Actually, I was a few years ago, still at like 250, just on TRT and some training and I went for a checkup. My blood pressure was a bit high and it just triggered something. I mean, like I've been eating still like a bodybuilder, frequent meals, chicken, breast and rye. I don't know. It's just habit. So I kept doing it. I said I'm going to go on a low protein diet, more plant-based and lose some weight, right? But which weight I'm going to lose. I'm not fat. So I guess I'm going to lose muscle mass, but it was interesting exercise in that I dedicated my whole life to earlier life to building muscle mass. Now I'm actively trying to lose it. For health reasons, but also I wanted to check my ego. I think everyone else was more concerned than me about ice. We're skinny now and everything. I don't care. I'm doing what I think is best for my health. I'm losing some weight because I think if you're carrying a lot of weight when you get older, even if it's muscle I don't think it's a ideal, right? So I brought my weight down from 250 to 230 and at that point I put more protein and fat. So right now I eat probably twice a day in between 12 and 10 and might have a shake or something like that. So it's more high protein and fats, bit less carbs, intermittent fasting. And I feel great on it. I go in the morning, get up, do my things, and speaking about breathing, I mean I came a lot more conscious about that through doing yoga practices. At one point I really got into yoga and the breathing, different breathing techniques or different things. I mean you can do breathing to like produce DMT and like you can really shift your self just with breathing. It's amazing what you can do. So I went through all that and became much more conscious about breathing and trying to breathe through the nose, wearing the gym. You know, naturally got your mouth open and trying to go up in as much oxygen as it can. So breathing is definitely important. I try to, you know, I'm doing yoga, trying to breathe through the nose and come more conscious about breathing and I feel like I can speak to my whole body. Like anywhere I want to go, speak to myself, contact my organs and check in with them and make sure everything's all right. I had exterior muscle consciousness, but nothing else. Now I'm whole body conscious and health has a lot to do with the mind. Might be more than we even realize. I think unresolved traumas leads to a lot of disease. So it's good to explore yourself and your mind and how you look at things and maybe change the way you look at things and don't carry this, this weight around. I have a friend that practices different kinds of medicines and he had three cancers and he's convinced that it's a trauma-based. Well certainly there are data and there are a lot of real life examples where it when people hold in their pain and in particular shame, it causes disease. We've had a couple of guests have talked about this, but it's kind of interesting. The original naming of the type A personality was all around people who were prone to heart attack because they didn't actually let out what was going on for them. And it's been a ride for the psychology science world to try and figure this out. I think we'd be remiss if we don't talk a little bit about psychedelics and your experience with those. But I want to preface that with saying that my understanding is that right now you're not a psycho nut, but you did explore which I find really interesting because people think if you start something you got to do it forever. With the exception of maybe fitness and sleep and all the basic health stuff, what's so striking is it seems like you're able to go into something deep, get the best of it and then get out. Yeah, that's what I did with psychedelics. I feel I wouldn't say I'll never do psychedelics again because I may be in a different space and may feel the need to do it. But I went through that whole experience and it was amazing. I mean, it gives you a totally different perspective on life. You said 97 was last Olympia. You realize you're done 98 through 2000. You're kind of going through a reframe. Yeah, a whole lot of things happened as well in my personal life. My nephew passed away 15 years old in my house and there was no explanation. It was very close. My marriage was everything was falling apart. Everything was falling apart in my life. But maybe it had to get reorganized. I think I went for a period like I just want to have fun here and just I don't really go too deeply into stuff because it was I kind of get into it and it was too heavy. So I'm like, I'm just going to have fun and later on a friend of mine was like, you should try DMT. He's over in California and he had some pharma grade stuff and I'm only in California. Yeah, I read this book when I was living in Amsterdam for a couple of years. It was no internet. So I read this book DMT The Spirit Molecule. You can get that all about DMT. So I'd heard about it. I heard about that stuff. So we got the powder and I smoked it and I saw the behind reality if you like. The construction, the numbers and the geometry and everything's connected. And everything's one thing and we have an experience and we can choose to experience good, bad, whatever in this in this reality and it's a temporary experience and everything is forever. There's no time and all these things came in but DMT is a very short experience like 10 seconds or something. So then I got invited on this podcast in England called London Real. Yeah. And it was very early, small podcast at the time. They invited me down and I said, it sounds interesting because I like to talk. I can talk about different subjects or whatever. So we're back, you know, before we do the podcast, we're talking away and I don't know, it came in a conversation. Yeah, DMT, oh yeah, I've done that. What? You've done it all in there. Would you be willing to talk about it on the podcast? I says London Real or London Bullshit? What's the name of the podcast man? And I talked to about the psychedelics and my experience and it went absolutely huge because this was, I think it was like 2012. That's early. But people were stopping me on the street and they weren't stopping me because you're Mr. You're that guy on. Oh, it's fascinating what you talked about and and because I was on that show, then this camp from Costa Rica, they got in touch with me and we're an Iowaska camp. I did it once in Spain, Iowaska. It was a great experience and then these guys going to touch with me and they said, how do you feel about coming to Costa Rica and being like a headliner? I don't know about that man because it's very private. I just want to do my own thing. I can spain nobody knows who I am. So I did it once there and like, I'm just doing my thing man, I don't want to be, you know, you're a diary and I'm just hit for my personal experience. And they're like, well, when it's the ceremonies, that's the shaman and the facilitators and you're just another guy once you go in there. But during the day, can you look after the guys? I said, I don't know. Okay, let me give it a try and people from the fitness industry or the gym or whatever were coming and I said, why are you here? I'm because I was kind of interested. I was kind of curious, but I didn't know. I didn't know if it's for me. Maybe it's a hippie thing. Maybe I don't know, but when I saw that you're doing it, I said, it's cool to start on it's doing it. Let's go. So we did three camps there with like 20 people ahead. In one week, you do four sessions. So I've probably done like 20-something IOSCA ceremonies and each time was different, each time I learned something. But I got to the stage where I'm like, what more can I learn? I'm not coming here to be a tour. You know, psychedelic tourists, they call them. People that keep going back, keep going back. Well, if it was helping you, why didn't you keep going back? Once you've learned, I can't remember who it was, but they said, once you pick up the receiver and you get the message, put it down, right? So it was over a period of time and I was like, wow, I just, I don't feel like I need to do anymore or I want to do anymore. It might change. But I feel like I learned what I needed to learn and I helped other people on their journey as well. So I got the message, you know, what more do I need to know? If I would have sat down with you prior to your psychedelic work, like right here right now, would you feel different, be different? I believe so, yeah. I mean, it's like, it's hard to describe the whole experience. I was like, wow, well, it's different for everybody. But in terms of the takeaways, we're some related to the bigest takeaway is everything. Everything, everything, everything, everything is one thing. We're one thing. We're not a drop from the ocean. We're the ocean and a drop as a roomy, that's a roomy thing, right? But I get it. I was saying that before before I even read that. I was telling people, I said, imagine an ocean, that's everything. But there's a spray that's come out, like a little drop. Anything, so I'm just a little drop. Oh, for me, I'm like, no, you're the ocean as well. You'll drop back into the ocean when you, so everything is one thing. We're all connected. Having, we're the same thing, having separate experiences. That's what I got. And we're all connected. And the whole experience we have in is mental. Like, nothing exists without observation. So this is all created by us. Everything, sour imagination, that doesn't really exist. If that makes sense to me, it might not. Because you've got to experience it. So I'm very open. As a neuroscientist, I understand for certain that our brains are very good at extracting certain kinds of information. That's red, that's blue. I can hear your voice, that's Dorian, I'm me, but that's through a certain set of filters. And-- - Yeah, you're machine with a computer. And it's a limit set. - We got certain filters. It's like someone described it, there's a, I forget who it was that, you know, if you were in a house and the windows were open out onto a yard, you would hear certain things and see certain things and that's your conception of a yard. But if you were outside in the field on the other side of the yard, you'd get a very different picture, a very different experience of it. Let me give you another analogy like that. I don't know where this one came from, but I was used at one time, 'cause there's so many different levels to psychedelic experience. But I said it like this, imagine you're in a room, whatever shape, square room, and you're in this room and that's all that exists. You can see it, you can touch it. There's nothing more, 'cause you're not aware of it, right? How about if I bought a little trampoline in here, and you're bounced up on a trampoline and you happen to see over the wall and you see there's a hole in other world out there that you didn't know about, but now you've seen it, you can't forget, right? So that you'll come back to this room with a different perspective knowing that this is not it, really. So it gives you a totally new perspective on life, I think. - I'm totally on board. I will say, I do think there are certain people with predisposition to psychosis that should be cautious about psychedelics. - Oh, the camp I went to in Costa Rica is like they do a full review, they got doctors on board and everything like that. So they do vet people before and get their medical history and all that stuff. I'm sure there's some exceptions where maybe it might not be beneficial, but I'm not an expert on that. But if it's a real camp and that is the thing, a lot of them are not, you know, they just get as many people in there to get as much money and they don't get the attention and everything like that. So if you're going to do it, I mean, do your bit of research on who's doing it and how are they qualified and what the facilities like and everything like that. I mean, I did it in Spain where it's kind of wild west, they don't really tell you too much, you know. But I can handle that not everyone else can. So better to go to a place where they do it very professionally. And with a shaman, you know, proper, like a traditional, not a guy. I mean, I could say I'm a shaman and what comes on if, what I'm not, you know. These guys, it's passed down through the family and they do maybe a decade of training before they're going in there and actually administering the ceremonies. So I think that's important. Yeah, I think the data on psilocybin for depression, MDMA, not recreationally, but therapeutically for PTSD. I've gained for PTSD and for alcohol and other substance abuse disorders is very intriguing. And I'm not trying to hedge here and play, you know, but I think it's very interesting. I think we're headed. I think people forget. This is one of these things where I almost forgot to say this. Whether or not it's therapy, working out, a pill or psychedelics. Ultimately, what we're after is this thing of brain plasticity, right? I mean, they're all aimed at the same end point. But the psychedelics are particularly interesting because the experience of them, not just the effects they have long term, but both the experience of being in the psychedelic journey as well as the long term outcomes seem to create something that done correctly brings people more peace. Well, there's a guy in England that's now funded and has been doing the experiments. And they've got like brain activity before and afterwards. I don't know what basis is on, but let's say the brain activity that they can see is like maybe 30% litop, 100%. Yeah, it's sort of activating positive your brain. That's kind of sleeping, I guess. Yeah, it's revealing a bunch of lateral connections in what we call the default mode network. Basically, more brain areas are talking to one another in the psychedelic. Which change your perspective. That's right. And the way you think. It's change your perception. Effects everything. There was a guy, fun enough, he used the work for the government in UK, right? So they had him do a report on drugs and recreational drugs and what his conclusions were. And he said, people that take ecstasy, MDMA, on the weekend, statistically, they're much safer than somebody that does horse riding. I mean, this is a scientific, and they fired him. And a lot of scientists that work for the UK, they retired. They're like, we're scientists. We're scientists. You can't dictate to us what the conclusion must be we're scientists. We just look and give you the conclusion. Anyway, Professor NotNow is working independently and funded and in London. And he's doing a lot of these studies on different psychedelics and brain activity and depression and so on. So a lot of people that come to the camps who are struggling with depression and different issues. And some of the experiences might have been unpleasant at the time. But everybody at the end of the week is like, wow, this is the most important thing I've done in my life. This is life changing. I heard that so many times, like, literally, from everybody that's done it. So it's worth looking into, definitely. And beyond whatever you might feel at the time, there's no side effects afterwards or anything like that. And another thing after doing these camps-- I mean, you're restricted with your diet. And just before you go, they give you a specific diet and things to cut out like alcohol and any other kind of drugs and so on. And I feel like if my brain was a computer, like at the end of the week, all the junk files are gone out. And it's just-- I have so many ideas and inspiration and ideas for business and like it's on fire. And eventually, it settles down to a more normal pace. But you feel like your computer's just been upgraded. Yeah, de-fragged, as they say. We mentioned schizophrenia a couple minutes ago. Reminds me, there are these very interesting findings. You know, there are a few exceptions to what I'm about to say. But I know that your wife is from Brazil. And we were talking about the value of sunlight, you being from the UK. You know, you don't find schizophrenia near the equator. Because of the light. I'm not going to say schizophrenia is one thing. And I'm not going to say it's caused by one thing. But there's some very interesting hypotheses about certain types of winter infections make people more prone to them. Now, why would those winter infections only occur closer to the poles? It may be that-- this is a theory that some of the long wavelength light from the sun, the reds in orange and yellows and so forth, provide a protective function on the mitochondria and at certain stages of pregnancy. Because there is a genetic component to schizophrenia. But there's also an environmental component. Identical twins don't always both have it. Sunlight seems protective. The amount of sunlight seems protective. In a way that is not trivial, that statistically is very impressive. So it's interesting, right? Sunlight. Sunlight. Sunlight. Overall health. The sun is essential. I mean, I've talked about it before to friends and everything. I was like-- I mean, I was in the club, right? Isn't it a ridiculous joke? How have been told to be scared of the sun when it's the giver of all life on the planet? Somehow it can be bad for us? That's just ridiculous, yeah? If you go in the sun and you start to get burned, get out of the sun. What's wrong with a layer of clothing? Yeah, and put on a hat. Yeah. This man, I'm as white as they come naturally, yeah? I'm like a bottle of milk, man. But I went to Spain. And I guess my nutrition improved. Much better fruits and vegetables. That might be something. But I slowly introduced myself to the sun. And now I can stay out all day. I might get a bit reddish because I'm pale skin. But I don't get burnt or nothing, man. I can stay in the sun all day. And, yeah, I just feel much better in the sun. Everybody does. People come from England to live in Spain because of that fact. And if we look between the UK and Spain, it's about a six, seven-year difference in the life expectancy, yeah? Maybe the food's a bit better, but the sun is the key, I believe. I won't launch into a whole scientific lecture on this, but it's very interesting and not a coincidence at all that dopamine and the synthesis of dopamine in the body. It's all tyrosine, but there's an enzyme called tyrosanis. And it's the rate limiting enzyme for dopamine production. Dopamine makes you feel good, motivated, et cetera. It's correlated with the sex hormones, we know all this stuff. Certainly you do. It's also responsible for pigmentation of the skin, which is why-- For instance, an arctic fox, which is white in the winter, becomes brown in the summer through the dopamine pathway. So the feeling good in the sun is not a trivial thing. It's through the dopamine pathway and the melanin pathway. The other thing that's really interesting is that there's been a study recently where they gave people a glucose tolerance test. How well they manage blood sugar, insulin, et cetera. And in sunlight, or even with some sunlight just landing on their back, their metabolism goes up by about, I believe, 29%, and their blood glucose regulation is far better. [BLANK_AUDIO] It's because the sunlight actually gets through the body, charges the mitochondria. - And naturally reaches the mitochondria in the cell. - It actually, the long wave length light will go all the way through your body and charge your mitochondria on the way. And this is not like, here's say, this is documented in beautiful studies. Glenn Jeffreth University College, London, another formerly pasty pale Brit, who I've known for many decades, came here sat there and said, the more time you get in the sun, the longer your life, the more time you get in the sun, the better your blood glucose regulation. The more time you get in the sun, and on and on and on. And the opposite is also true. Too much time under just LED lights and not enough sunlight is damaging to mitochondria. And it's a very big effect. I think this is going to be one of the biggest health issues. - This is beyond vitamin D production. - It includes vitamin D production, but actually vitamin D comes from the UV. The stuff they say is bad. The UV light is what triggers vitamin D production. So look, you don't want to get a sunburn and I'm glad you mentioned that. We have been sold a bill of goods about the sun, and I think in the next 10 years, it's going to go the same direction as lifting weights turns to fat. No one believes that because it's not true, but we were told that for decades. - Oh, they used to believe it. I mean, when I started back in the eighties, very few women wanted to lift weights because they would get too big. And yeah, I was funny. People come down the gym when I was British champion or something. Yeah, I don't want to get too big. Like something like you, that would be great. - Don't worry. - It's not going to happen by accident. - Yeah, don't worry. - Yeah, as I always tell people, especially if a woman want to train, the pump you get in the gym, that's as big as you're ever going to get within a couple of months. So if you ever see yourself in the mirror at the gym and go, oh my god, that's far too big, go ahead, quit for two weeks, but you know, exactly. I mean, people think they're going to go sleep in one of these. - What's interesting, you know, that went in Spain, yeah? And we live right, what a bitch. Me and go, a lot on the beach. - Right outside, a lot, right? I had my vitamin D tested and it was only 35. I thought just from the sun. - Some people just don't convert vitamin D that well and or produce vitamin D that well, and need to supplement it. And it does seem to have some genetic component, which makes sense. Speaking of which, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about cannabis because I think one of our early correspondences - Yeah, I was like, I didn't have a sort of cannabis. And I said, listen, I'm worried about psychotic risk but I said, listen, there could be medical uses and I've done a couple different episodes. - I've done a few episodes here, right? - I had a tea on. - Yeah, I had them on my podcast, but we didn't touch on it. - You didn't touch on it? - Okay, no, I mean, I think that I want to be clear. My stance is one where I've seen people benefit. I've seen data that for people with a predisposition to psychosis, the high THC can be problematic. This is just what I've seen. But you sent me a note saying that, first of all, that your experience with it has been good. So I want to give you the opportunity to share that. And then some of the things that you speculate about because I'm an open book. - Well, to give you some background, yeah. I guess cannabis is a bit like cultural. In Birmingham where I grew up, I have a lot of Jamaicans. So I mean, Jamaicans, they smoke cannabis, they make tea, it's just a cultural thing, it's normal for them, right? So it was about how to couple of friends that their dad's with Jamaican. So I was smoking it anyway, but I wasn't smoking it because I thought there was any particular health benefits. I just smoking it and drinking alcohol, like hanging out. But my friends, dads with Jamaican, were like, this is protected against this and we drink tea for this and the women take it for menstrual pain, PMA. So I kind of heard that, but I'm okay, whatever. And I would smoke occasionally when I was training. And when I went to live in Amsterdam for a little bit, as I said, I did a lot of reading, started reading about it, I started searching for studies. I found those massive, massive health benefits from THC and different cannabinoids. Some of it really counterintuitive, I guess, for people. You had Peter Ateer on here, right? So you asked Peter, I think, what about smoking cannabis? How does that affect your lungs? And I think he was pretty much saying, it's probably like the same as nicotine. Tobacco, right? I think that's what he said. Well, he's probably not aware of a 25-year-long, massive study that was done at UCLA. Dr. Donald Taskin, I think his name is. So they put these people into groups, cigarette smokers, cannabis smokers and control group that didn't smoke anything. So after 25 years, what did they find? Cigarette group, we already know, right? Lots of lung function increased cancers, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. In the cannabis group, and heavy, daily smoking, 25 years, I'll agree because I've been heavily smoking every day for 30 years, right? So what was the effect on the lungs? Some negative, yes, because of the heat and the tar and everything like that. It could irritate the airways. It reduced somewhat the antioxidant layer on your airways. So statistically, it would be more susceptible to an infection, maybe bronchitis or something like that, although of all my friends, I don't know anyone that got it, but statistically, it would be more likely to get it. Lung function, interesting, 25 years of cannabis smoking, compared to the non-smokers, there was a slight increase in lung capacity in the cannabis smoke. I have to check out this study. No cancers. Other groups got cancers, but this one don't after 25 years. So that's the lung cancer. So maybe Peter was not privy to this information. Well, I'll check out the study. I'm not familiar with it, but I appreciate you raising it. I wonder if it's the THC and whether or not edible forms of THC would have the same effect or whether or not it's the smoking of cannabis. So you know of Rixemson? I know of Rixemson. RSO. Rixemson, anyway, he made a concentrated oil from cannabis. Now they sell it in all the pharmacies called RSO, although I spoke to RIC as nothing to do with him. He just-- because he was the guy that originally did it. In Canada, I only cure hundreds of people with cancers. He made a doctorum entry called Run from the Cure. So the guy was growing cannabis on his farm in Canada, making the oil from it because he discovered by mistake. He had some skin cancer, and he discovered by mistake that the oil got rid of it and he started to-- anyway, he was persecuted by the authorities in Canada because he wasn't selling it. He was literally putting his money into it, growing plants and giving it away for free. Watch the documentaries, very explains it all. And he was persecuted there and he lives in Europe now. And there's a lady at the University of Madrid, Dr. Sanchez. She's proven in lab setting, T-H-C. You can even get the video, the speedy up video, literally eating of the cancer cells. Yeah, I've seen this. I think we're finally in 2026, breaking into new ground, where people are looking at psychedelics, looking at other compounds, nutrition, et cetera. I do think we're an optimist. I like to think that, in part, because of discussions like this, and an open mind and it has not existed before, that we're starting to break new ground in at least exploring things, right? Being willing to explore things. You won't be shocked to hear, but many people might be shocked to hear, that the initial group that was exploring different types of breathing to achieve different brain body states-- people like Stan Graf and all those people-- a lot of them were run out of universities. They were thought it was somehow it was looked at as two-counter culture. Now, my lab-- I'm not running a lab right now, but I still teach, but my lab has published clinical studies, federally-- well, in that case, privately funded, but peer-reviewed studies on breath work for anxiety control, breath work for sleep augmentation. And so to us, now, breath work sounds like they're kind of like, oh, of course, right? But 20 years ago, if you said breath work, people were like, OK, where's your magic carpet? And there's the door, and let's lock you out. You can manipulate your brain and your body with breath work. Sure. Yeah, you can really shift your state. And the thing with the cannabis I've also seen it in my life. I've seen it with real people, and there's thousands of people out on the internet if you search. Well, certainly for glaucoma, a field that I was involved in for a long time. Eye pressure cannabis is a well utilized tool to relieve eye pressure. And the major cause of blindness, second to cataract only is glaucoma due to elevate eye pressure and cannabis reducing. That's well established. So in the ophthalmology community, they've really embraced it. I do have one question I think is in the back of many people's minds or should be. You were clearly, and still are, a very driven guy, although now you have this kind of addition. I'm trying to do that. Yeah, you have an additional-- you have an on-off switch right now. Maybe it was all gas pedal before. Many people that I know who smoked a lot of weed, some of them became very a motivated. They-- like, I do it tomorrow. Yeah, exactly. So you are a unique specimen in the sense that you're super driven, right? And so I had this, you know, dime store psychologist theory for a long time with my friends, which was, hey, if you're really driven, maybe you should do some things to relax. Maybe cannabis is right for you a little bit. But if you're lazy, I don't know if that's the right choice. And if you're lazy, you're lazy, right? Maybe it just amplifies it. You know, there's a test you can do now. I don't know if it's here, but I did it in Spain. So we have an endocannabinoid system, right? Inside your body. But it varies. So there's a swab you can do. And it gives you a report on your endocannabinoid system, right? And there was, one of them is a likelihood of negative effects from one to 10. So the lady did my thing, and I was just kidding around with her. I said, what does it say there? Do I need to THC for life? Just messing about. She said, you're not far off. She said, look at this. The likelihood of you having negative effects from cannabis, you're on one out of 10. So for instance, my wife, we've been married 12, 13 years now. Sorry, Gala, if I made a mistake. She's not going anywhere near it. She's totally paranoid if she has a little bit of cannabis. So I'm well aware of different endocannabinoid systems, maybe, or different personalities. So for some people, they will get a lot of negative effects. So you have to find out for yourself. But it's interesting that they've got this test now that actually proves that your endocannabinoid system might be slightly different from mine. So I might benefit more from THC. Maybe you've benefit more from CBD or a balance. So it's interesting now that we're able to get this information. And I'm very driven and I'm very disciplined, yeah. And yeah, my wife thinks I'm hyperactive. I'm kind of quietly, I'm looked very relaxed, but I'm constantly thinking and moving. So probably for me, it's beneficial at this stage. And I have this discussion with my friend, oh, it's not good and it's only for losers. I said, you like to watch that American football, don't you? On Saturday, it's like, yeah. I said, you know they did a survey with their NFL players and NBA players. How many of them use cannabis on a daily basis? In between 70 and 80%. So we're talking about the most elite athletes in the world. Highest paid athletes, they wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't benefiting them. And they're saying it's benefiting them. But more to the point, how about the owners of these clubs? If they thought this was having a negative foul, they would stamp it out right away, but they don't. And these are, you know, the basketball players are saying they smoke blunts before they go on a court and they play better and they recover better and so on. And that makes sense. - So I would say it's good to hear that you say that it probably varies by person. - Yes. - Your wife, it's not enough for her. It's clearly for you. And it probably varies by profession and natural drive. But maybe other things too. I mean, I know some artists musicians who need to drink and smoke. And others who don't. And, you know, now nicotines made a big comeback in the oral forms of nicotine. You know, I feel like just like with dogs, there's tremendous variation in body size temperament. - Even food. - Humans are different. - Some food for some people are allergic to it. They give them bad effect and somebody else not. So there's no rule that applies to everybody, 100%. But cannabis has a very negative image, they say. Because of over 100 years of propaganda, yeah. It was a medicine you could get on the shelves in America in 1900. It was for many things. Queen Victoria, the famous longest queen. She used to use cannabis for period pains and this and that. So it was used as a medicine for a long time until the pharmaceutical industry came along. And then all of a sudden they're making movies. You know, if a white woman smokes cannabis she's gonna sleep with black men and all kind of crazy stuff. There was one called reef or madness. You know, smoking. (laughing) - Gonna send you crazy. - I mean, well, this is in people's minds, you know. It's a bad thing. It's a drug. It's not. It's a plant medicine. And it grows from the ground. Like that. - It's stronger now. It's higher in THC because it's been crossbreed and cross, like a dog. You know, you want a dog with a long nose. It's the same thing with plants. So people want to get more bang for their buck. So the breeders are trying to breed more THC into it. And sometimes this is not good for people because the CBD is kind of calmed down and balanced with the THC. Now the CBD is down and the THC is up there. So that's why it's more likely to make you feel a little edgy now because the THC is kind of active, you know. - I had a guest on here named Chris McCurdy. He's a scientist out in Florida. And he taught me three things. I think that you'll find interesting in light of what we're talking about. One, that every pharmaceutical company has what are called bioprospectors that send people quietly to the jungle, to other places, and not just the jungle to find plants that are used locally, and then to find specific molecules and develop highly potent extracts to grab just one effect. The second thing is we were talking about cratum. I think the proper pronunciation is cratum. And he was talking about how the cratum plant and even the cocoa plant chewing on the leaves is known to give people a kind of balanced in both cases kind of stimulant relaxation effect. - I did that in Peru when we went to Machia Pichu. - Interesting. - Yeah, he felt like maybe had a coffee or something. - Okay, well it's interesting because what happens is people take the plant, find the molecule that produces like the real dopamine high in the case of cocaine, or cratum, and they then develop cratum isolates or cratum-like synthetics, or THC-like synthetics. And so what, especially in the United States, there's this tendency to take a plant, which is very balanced in its chemistry, and then to extract the thing that gives you an amplified effect, which is most habit forming and addictive. And then drive that to market. But then we demonize the whole plant. - It's natural form. You can't baits into it. So you can't make a lot of money. So you need to change a little bit, or extract something out of there. Kind of this grows from the ground. Yes, it's stronger than it used to be back in the '60s 'cause the grow is a bread it like that. But it's not synthetic. It's just a plant, crossed with a plant. Like, you know, it's a natural process. That's why farmers make money from it. They have to change it from its natural form balance. But when they do that, it doesn't work so well. - Well, the internet has caused a great many problems, instant gratification, this kind of thing. But I also think it's solved a great number of problems. And one of the things that it's solved is that the discussions about plants versus isolates. Cannabis for one person, maybe not for another. Psychedelics, TRT versus steroids. I like to think that we are in a whole new era now where people hopefully are starting to search for information differently. It's not like it was. - You can find it now in your fingertips, man. - It's great. - When I first started to get interested in psychedelics and cannabis, I mean, as I said, I was in Amsterdam. So there's stores there with books in there that I wouldn't normally find even in England. So that's when I had to, you know, when I started bodybuilding, I had to go out and buy magazines or get a book, it wasn't so easy. Now at the fingertips, you can do anything. And all listen to me, go check that study if you want. I don't make it, but I can tell you, after 30 years of daily smoking, I went for a fitness evaluation, was in Brazil a couple of years ago. They said the test biology, I should be 38. And my breathing and my heart rate to recover very from exercise is excellent. Well, no one's doubting your figure. I promise you that. - Grossly. (laughing) - I'm similar to your wife in that, it's not for me. But I'm, you know, like to each their own, right? I have the things that work for me and the things that don't. And I'm open-minded. I have a couple more questions. One is about your wife, vis-a-vis training for women. Early on, we were talking about training and I'll point people to some other references that you've put out there about training, but you made it very clear kind of what the beginner versus more advanced stuff is, I wanna make sure that we touch on, she's quite the athlete. Do you think women who want to get stronger, maybe just a bit more size here and there, but not overall size, do you think they should train differently? And if so, how? - Definitely from men. - Yes. - I don't think so. I mean, the same muscles in the same place, same rules apply, the muscles are not gonna grow unless you're overload them. It's just gonna be limited by the fact that you're female and you don't produce a lot of testosterone, which makes it much more difficult to build muscle. So we just have this nonsense word, I say this the nonsense word. Now I don't wanna get bigger, I wanna get toned. All right, but there is no such thing as toned. What you mean is you wanna look firmer, right? Yes, it's called building muscle and losing body fat. So your arms might be the same size, but it's a different composition now. looks leaner, it looks more shapely. It's the same thing. It's bodybuilding. You're building muscle and losing body fat. That's the only way you can change your shape. You can do yoga, you can do polite, all these things. It's great for your mobility or internal musculature. But the only way to really change your physical appearance is resistance training. Wait, Trin, what if you want to call it? Maybe they don't want to call it bodybuilding. Oh no, resistance training. That sounds better, but it's the same bloody thing, you need to build muscle and lose body fat. Then you'll look leaner. And don't worry about building too much muscle. Unless you're a genetic outlier, that's genetically very muscular and maybe higher testosterone levels, the girls that you see in competition, they're all using steroids. All of them, even the bikini compasses, they had this bikini class with women that introduced years ago. 'Cause the idea is the women are getting too big now and the other class is, so we'll make this bikini class. Which is a fit, you know, young girl, that's been trained of a little bit bikini on the beach. They started doing juice and got bigger. I'm like, what are they gonna do next? Bikini, light. Unfortunately, when it gets competitive, people start using products. So all those girls you see doing competitions, they're all using steroids. So you're not gonna get like that by mistake. You need to build some muscle mass. You can change your appearance and be healthier. Resistance training, just the same as a man. Maybe you wanna do extra work on your glutes or something 'cause that's a big thing for women. Maybe you do another exercise there that the man doesn't do, but it's the same thing applies, right? Stress, adaptation, recovery, adaptation. It's the same principle. Not voodoo, there's no, you know, there's a whole industry now, right? Online and simple. Easy, facts. Don't sound sexy. So that everybody tries to make it very complicated in order to make the client perceive more value. I got a change. It's talking to a guy once who's the top trainer. I said, why have you got a trainer of clients routine every random four weeks, six weeks, whatever it is you do? I said, it's nonsense. People just do the same exercises that work, right? Don't keep changing around. You can't even track it. Yeah, I know, but they want it. They like to change it around. I'm like, maybe it's a good business strategy, but I'm like, just tell people the truth and that is what it is. It's much harder to package and sell drive. Yeah, it's hard work, sweat, push yourself, but there's a beauty in that. There's a beauty in pushing yourself. And once you overcome something, then you feel more confident and stronger to overcome something again, right? And this bleeds into everything, right? Into your life, like the gym is a microcosm of your life, right? If you're going to push your back in a gym and not push yourself, when it gets tough, you can art now, screw that, put it down. I'm probably going to do the same thing in life when things come along that are tough, you know? So it's not just a physical thing. It's the mantle thing that controls everything. If you become a more resilient, more confident, stronger person, that goes into everything in your life. So there's more to bodybuilding than big muscles and competitions. And iron your shirts. Yeah, iron your shirts, lower your cortisol. Yeah, I don't even know why I was doing that. It's so cool. I'm imagining that I'm just starting ironing my own shirts. Tell me about DIY nutrition. I'm not getting paid to ask this. I'm just really curious. Where is it? What is it? When I was bodybuilding, I was competing. I was contracted to work with a weeder company. You know, be that guy in the magazines and hold the product and everything. But I was interested in supplements. I was always reading nutrition supplements, anything to do with my craft. And I spoke to Joe Weeder and I said, "Listen, can I work with the guys?" And you know, "No, no, no. Just break that guy." So I was interested in getting involved then because I thought the weirdest supplements definitely could be better, right? Well, he didn't want me involved in that. So through various businesses over the years, I built DIY nutrition with my own brand. I was just doing it myself. Me and a partner and doing it ourselves. And over the years, then I found some good partners. And we got to the point now where we have our own pharmaceutical facility in Europe. And we've been hitting the bodybuilding market all over Europe and Middle East. And now we're shifting. We're still going to maintain that. We're always shifting into health, wellness, all the things that we're talking about. And making some real kick ass product for that market as well. So there's almost like two Dorian's, Dorian the bodybuilder and Dorian now who's in his 60s and being concerned about my own health and longevity and quality of life. And what supplements can you take to help in that area? So we're developing that whole kind of new area. That I'm really interested and really involved in the development of the products and everything like that. And we are after many years of demand coming to the US pretty soon. So that's one of the reasons I'm over here meeting with some people and everything. So look out for us. We'll be in the US soon as well. Great. So I imagine is the quote-unquote conventional stuff, like way protein, creatine, glutamine, and some additional things as well. Yeah, we've got pre-workout, creatine, pre-workout's called blood and guts. And that's the first product we're going to be bringing here to the US. There'll be a lot more shouting in jumes. Yeah. I'm working on something special. I want to say what it is yet, but something special with blood and guts product. So you get a bit more than a product for myself. We'll wait till that's ready to go. Yeah, let us know. Final question. And it's arguably a big one, but feel free to handle it however you want. You've had a very unusual life relative to most humans on the planet. And it passed. It's been interesting. It's been a wild ride. And again, I'm struck by your internal sense that you were destined for something different and great. You're really leaning into it in such a logical way. And also knowing when to rack that and go to the next thing, keeping the best of what was and grabbing the best of what's next and so forth, as well as maintaining your health. So here's my question. Because you did all that. You're doing it now. It's not over. And you also have this experience of psychedelics and consciousness. And you're a thinker. You're thinking-- That's one of the reasons I like to smoke cannabis. Because I just go into thinking. It's like breaks all the boxes. And you and Rogan can do that. It's talk about that way. And for the rest of us, we end up in a little ball scared that the mint is going to put in this choice. I saw a lot of people in the smoke. Oh, man. My wife says when they're like, she's like, don't do it. Well, I can't-- I don't enter marital disputes. But so what do you think this is all about, man? For not just for you, but for everyone. I mean, you-- for a lot of people look up to you, they look to your story, but it's your insight and your experience that I think is what's so intriguing. What do you think is all about? I mean, why are we here? We're God playing hide and seek with itself. We're consciousness, having an experience, being in a physical reality. And we're all the same thing. We appear to be different and separate. And we are. We have an individual experience. But ultimately, we're the same thing, having all these experiences at the same time. If you want to call that God, it's just everything. That's what I got from psychedelics. And we're all on our own journeys in this reality. Maybe to learn things, or maybe to explore what it's like to be in this reality, because consciousness is not physical. It's just consciousness. And I believe it's in everything. In the plants, in the animals, in us, is all the same thing, having kind of different experiences. And it doesn't end, you know? It's like we've got the TV on, right? TV's on there. We're watching it. We turn it off. All the TV blows up or whatever. But the energy that was going into the TV is still there somewhere, right? So we are still somewhere, even after this experience finishes. This much I'm pretty sure about. That's what I got. And live life to its fullest. Like, you're going to come here and have this opportunity, and just stay here and go from here to here and do this. And I never wanted to do that. I knew I felt there's more to life. And there still is. I want to adventure, I want to experience it. and uh. It's been up and down and I feel like now, like I'm the most balanced and the most peaceful that I've been. I know my plays and try to enjoy every day and spread love, you know, because that's where we come from, we've forgotten. But it's all, creation is the same as love, it's the same frequency. That's what I get from my experience and I look forward to every day and being somewhat of a mentor and a teacher, I guess, at this point, you know, I do these camps like once or twice a year, just like six people or something, where I take them through my training methods and in the germ and we do the theory and they become certified at the end of the week. So we call it dy-h-i-t training certification. But I said to the guys, I said I'm thinking of a change in name of this thing to the dy experience because the training is part of it but it almost becomes something else by the end of the week, it's been so much time together and talking and training together and I see the people when they're under stress in the gym, I see things about them that I could maybe share and to be helpful. So I feel all the things I've been through is giving me the experience to be able to do that and help and inspire other people and my own kids and anyone that's around me can benefit from my experiences. I think at this point that's probably the reason I did it all in the first place. You know, I wanted to be this guy, I wanted to be Mr. Olympia, I wanted to have this trophy because I wanted to make the money and be famous and all that stuff, I suppose. But what was the point of all that? I think I get it now more than ever. So I'm feeling a good place, I feel peaceful, I feel balanced and that's my role now, I think. You know, just to inspire and help other people from my experiences and my knowledge. So I think that's where I'm at now, yeah. Well you have certainly inspired me and millions of other people and you're going to continue to buy virtue of your accomplishments, what you've said here today and everything going forward. I can't express enough gratitude to you. You've really been a leader without realizing it in domains of life that you don't realize for, you know, like a guy who was plugging away in the lab, who also like working out who didn't become an athlete or a bodybuilder but really loved fitness. I'm just one example of millions of people who have been truly inspired by you, you've shaped and changed the millions of awful men and I really appreciate that. It's real. It's real. And when I saw that you were into some of the same music and that you like blondie and you know, I met her. Did you really? Oh yeah. You know, it was 1990 in New York. I met her in the gym there and man, I don't have a fucking camera. Man, she's amazing. I remember as a kid and I was like, man, you know, some guys like the swimsuit models. I'm like, she was punk. I'm like, blondie is it. And so just, you know, there are these points of convergence that one feels and again, I'm saying this for me, but millions of people feel that they go, oh, bulldog or blondie or whatever it is, how, that you like the hack squat, not the smith rack at a certain stage of your career, I guess you liked both. But you know, these things matter in ways that most people never get the opportunity to say directly to you and thank you. So on behalf of all of them, thanks. And also just on behalf of my show. It's been awesome. And now I'm super grateful that we did it and I'm excited to train tomorrow. Oh, we're going to ask you tomorrow. Nice. Yeah, I'll admit them 1% scare, but 99% fired. Don't worry, you'll be alive. I still got some fun. The guy went in a, they were filming me so it came out. I was like, just fucking get on this leg press and do this and bring it down on the control and press it up and just fucking do that till I tell you to stop. Yeah. I said, listen, you're not going to die. But if you do, you won't know about it. So don't worry. And that's awesome. Awesome. All right, man. Let's see it. Goals tomorrow. See you at Goals tomorrow. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dorian Yates. To learn more about Dorian and what he's doing now, please see the links in the show note captions. Also linked in the show note caption is the video of the high intensity low volume workout that Dorian took me and my producer Rob through at Gold's Jim Venice. We trained back. It was brutal and it was awesome. If you're learning from Endor and join this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review. And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. 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