‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 5 Rewatch (Part 2)

Hello, and welcome to an incredibly special episode of House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. And joining me today, no one can stand against her blindingly scrumptious luminescence, it's Mallory Rubin. Oh, most glamorous yet tasteful one, my glorificus, Joanna Robinson. We're just each other's minions today, is what it sounds like, as we discuss the back half of Buffy season five, right after this. I'm pro-football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of, major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story. Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta Lumateparone. This little light of mine, in the dark found a hopeful sign. I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta Lumateparone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects. Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824. I'm in my linen button-down shirt era because summers in Los Angeles are oppressively hot. So this is something I've been really, really enjoying based off of what I got from Quince, and I was really shocked by how reasonably priced they were. So you can find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was House of R. It's free. It's the best way to support the show. Can you believe it? The day is here. Unbelievable. It is Buffy season five, part two. This is it. We're apexing here. I cannot believe we're here. This is an incredible time to be alive. Quick programming reminders. Yes. In addition to wrapping up. We're wrapping up this Buffy coverage. We're, of course, doing our ongoing Lanterns coverage. So you can look for those if we get our ducks in a row every week on Mondays is the plan. Yes. Next week is a very, very special week. It is Mallory Rubin's birthday. For a minute, I was like, what are you talking about? I have a debilitating migraine, as you know, and Carlos knows, and Jacob knows, and Scott knows, and now everyone knows. But I told you, like the onion that flowers at the bronze that Spike so loves to consume. That is how I will. I think that will be my experience, my transformation while potting about this wonderful half season of TV with you. But not knowing about my own birthday, not an encouraging start. We're going to celebrate your birthday next week. Yeah. With what you have branded as Mallory Rubin's pivot to horror. That's right. You're turning a certain age. Turning 40, the big 4-0. And you've decided I'm an adult now. I shall brave horror, right? I, you know, I feel like. I feel like I am just missing out on a few big things recently that everybody has gotten to share together. And so I just wanted to dip my toe. I'm not going to force myself to explore certain horror films that I know are just not for me. Like, I'm going to ease in. I'm going to do it in a way that makes sense. You've already watched a couple. But because I really want to see Resident Evil. Yes. It made both of our fall hype meters. We talked about it. I want to pod about it. I want to see it with you. I want to watch it from probably your lap. Okay. We haven't officially committed to that. Your head's sort of tied up. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. In my lap, your head's sort of tucked into my neck. We will be seeing it together. So I think that's probably how it's going to go. And in order to. A box of chicken tenders and watermelon sour patch kids clutched in your hands. I don't know if it'll be a. No emotional support tendies? Well, is it a movie that I'm going to want to like eat during? I don't know. I don't know. That said, I do love a tendie at the theater, as you know. But in order to get ready for Resident Evil, because it's such a big moment, I thought, okay. Let me. Some immersion therapy. Like, let's prep, you know? And so. I kind of feel like Buffy might have loosened the jar for you a little bit. A lot of the stuff we've done recently, I feel like, you know, there's. I can't remember any of them now. But I do feel like. There's, you know, and also this. But, you know, Buffy is. There have definitely been things. Buffy is comedy horror. That's right. And there is some horror fixed up. Yeah. I mean, Stranger Things, which is literally made for children. And yet, multiple times while we did Stranger Things, you were like, was this too scary for you? There have been a lot of things. There have been a lot of scary things over the last few years where I thought, you know what? That wasn't too scary for me, actually. I could watch the show for children and I was okay. You're so brave. As you know, I love shows for children. That's one of those bracket complimentary things, as the meme goes. So, I decided, because Resident Evil is directed by, of course, Zach Kroeger, okay, well, let me watch Weapons, which I hadn't seen. He directed an adored film. So, I did that. If you want my instant reaction, we'll talk. We'll share all the thoughts on the actual podcast next week. But I've decided to chronicle my journey on Instagram as well from underneath a blanket. A cocoon of. Yeah. A comforting cocoon. Flashback to your Last of Us couch dispatches. Very reminiscent of that. Dispatches from the couch. These are even more poorly lit, I would say. And as you know, I have not yet found the time to post the Instagram reel, which I think probably for most people in the modern age takes, like, four minutes. And for me, it took, like, much longer than that. You know, it's like, ooh, subtitles. What a journey. I have watched Nosferatu, as you know. You and Adam are the only people who know that. And I film my own. This is my reaction immediately after. I just haven't posted it yet. Some takes coming on that one. Wonderful experience. So far, I'm like, two for two. These were a blast. So next up is Obsession. OK. That's this weekend. And we will see how that goes or if it breaks me. And I just recant on this pledge before the podcast. Yeah, if we just, like, if it grinds to a screeching halt. Perhaps. Could be. Could be. Who knows? Backrooms? That's on the list as well. I don't know if I'll get to that before Resident Evil, given that we're down to just a few days before we see that. We're going to see it soon. And this is NFL opening week. You seem quite busy. Drake May threw three interceptions last night. Just want to get that on the public record. Is he on your team? No. Oh. But he's the quarterback of the New England Patriots. And so it was just a wonderful experience for everyone who's not a Patriots fan. OK. Yeah. Great. All right. Well, that was a part of your reminders in a roundabout way. Speaking of which, if you want to hear more of Mallory Rubin's football takes, she was our guest co-host on the Prestige TV pod this week. That's right. Michael Waldron of Chad Powers and Loki fame. What a treat. And Avengers fame. And Doctor Strange fame came in to chat with us. So that was phenomenal. We love Michael Waldron. So it was wonderful. But I would say even if you haven't watched Chad Powers, that was just a great conversation about how he thinks about story. And this is one of the sort of, I don't know if I would say chief architects, but a significant architect of the current MCU era. So a great brain to pick. I had an absolutely wonderful time. I had a really good time with him. Chatting with him. That's great. And we're on the Prestige TV feed. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing that, Mallory, and saving me from embarrassing myself about football. So follow us on social. Why not? At House of Art Pod. Yep. Do it. Wow. The timing. Subscribe to the pod. Email us. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. We appreciate all of your emails. Yes. This is Buffy season five, episode 11, Triangle through episode 22, The Gift. So that is your spoiler warning through the end of Buffy season five. Sheesh. So let's go now to our opening snapshot. I love the custom. I know. Sound. It really is. It's great. Carlos killing it as always. Carlos, this is his favorite season of Buffy. It's true. He's very excited for this episode. All right. So Buffy season five, as we mentioned last time, September 21st. 26, 2000 to May 22nd, 2001. The episodes included today are Triangle, Checkpoint, Blood Ties, Crush, I Was Made to Love You, The Body, Forever, Intervention, Tough Love, Spiral, The Weight of the World, and The Gift. We will be doing a sort of slightly drilled down examination of The Body and The Gift, which Mallory identified as her two favorite episodes of the back half of the season. And, you know, the body. unsurprisingly a big one for you, but the finale really hit for you of this season. Yeah. Okay, great. We're going to talk about it. Boy. Before we get into that, I just wanted to hit a couple things really briefly. First of all, we've been doing sort of periodically as we go these sort of creator spotlights, talking about the impactful creatives who have joined the show as it has gone on and sort of shaped the show. And I thought I would shout out Stephen DeKnight, who joins in season five. Blood Ties is his first writing credit, which is a big one to just like drop this guy into. And he also does Spiral, I believe, in this season. He goes on to work on Angel, Smallville, Dollhouse, like the Spartacus verse. And then, of course, Netflix's Daredevil season one is sort of a big reason why we know his name. He took over Daredevil season one from a different Buffy guy, Drew Goddard, who hasn't joined the team on Buffy yet. Right. And he was replaced by a different Buffy guy, Doug Petrie. So they really wanted that Buffy vibe over there on Netflix's Daredevil season one and two, for sure. Let me tell you something. I've watched my share of Spartacus in the day as well. Have you? I didn't know. The original run, I watched every second of. That's his baby, pretty much. Very entertaining. I fell off over time. Are you feeling any Spartacus vibes in watching the Knights of Byzantium on their horses run down a Winnebago? Let me say, from the. The start here. Thought this was an incredible half season of television. The Knights are not why. No. Not our fave. No one's fave. Stephen and I wrote what I would say is the most controversial Buffy episode of all time, which is in season six. We have that to look forward to. Okay. So I don't, obviously don't know what that refers to. And I won't say what I think it might be, but I do have a guess based on a spoiler I have for season six. I'm not going to say it into the mic, but I'll tell you later. Will you remember to tell me? Season six. I'll just type it in the doc right now. I'm going to do it right now. We won't say it on the mic. Yeah. I would say that's part of it, but it's not the only reason why. Okay. But yes. The thing I wish I didn't know, but do. Which is why that episode is so insane, because that's not even the only reason why that episode is as tough as it is. But what's really interesting, having someone join season five, he is a huge Buffy fan. So a Buffy fan, when Stephen and I talks about joining Buffy, he's like, I cried because this is my favorite show on television. The dream. And he had very few writing credits, but I think he just really vibed with Joss in terms of their, hey, we're white guys of a certain age who read the same comics, et cetera, et cetera, and have the same sensibility. His spec script that he wrote was, which I think is really interesting. I haven't read it, but the concept is really interesting. It's like, it's a one-off episode where Xander gets the Slayer powers. And his conclusion, the way Stephen DeKnight describes it, he's like, it's basically explaining why men cannot be Slayers. And I was just like, oh, that's interesting. Intriguing. Intriguing. Gotta keep Xander in the funny syphilis. He's gotta be the guy. It's a regular guy. Marty Noxon, side note, we've already talked about Marty Noxon as a creator, but she really sort of steps in. She steps in a bit more to her power this season. She writes and directs two different episodes, Into the Woods, which was not her favorite episode of all time, but also Forever, which I actually really, really liked in this season, which she has the unenviable task of, I mean, the enviable joyous task of writing Riley off the show, but then the unenviable task of following the body. Forever is the episode that comes after the body, so she had to do that. And then she will take over as executive producer on season six. Joss is kind of out of the picture for season six. For the most part, except for one very important episode. Oh, interesting. He's launching Firefly on Fox. And so it's so funny because Firefly, I'm a huge Buffy fan. I watched every single second of Angel. I did watch the Firefly premiere, but I was not a huge Firefly fan when it came out. And everyone was so confused why, because it seemed like it should be right up my alley. And I was just like, Joss left my favorite show to go work on Firefly. And I, you know, I have come to enjoy season six more every time I rewatch it. But at the time, everyone in the fandom is like, this doesn't feel like the same show. And you really felt the absence of Joss. And I've come to appreciate that it doesn't feel like the same show. I've come to appreciate some of the avenues it goes down that I don't think Joss would have been capable of going down. So like, we can talk about that when we get there. But I felt abandoned by Joss going under. A deep resentment toward Nathan Filiana's character named Mal, as you know, I was in. I mean, I enjoy Firefly. I really love Serenity. Yeah, same. But I had complicated thoughts. I had complicated feelings about it at the time. I was just resentful of it. And then before we get into sort of our episode mini deep dives, Glory is Ben? Ben is Glory? Where do you net out on Glory as a big bad? Mixed positive. Mixed positive. But the, so like we talked about in season five, part one, I think that Glory, the performance, the character, the connections between Glory and Serenity, you know, fashion forward, my minions all want to fuck me, all that. It's just incredibly entertaining. It's a very, very, very entertaining, watchable character. I would say the minions in the back half are particularly just joyful. The minions are on one in the best possible way. We gave some flowers to our guy, Dreg, last pod. Shout out, Jinx. Jinx is my guy. Stealth MVP of the season. Jinx is kind of my guy. With love and respect to Dreg, Jinx like steals the show when he shows up. One of the things, I don't, this isn't an exact science, but I'm keeping a casual mental log as I'm taking notes on each half of the season as we do the pod of like, whose quotes am I writing down the most? Jinx really in the running this season. I mean, obviously it still was Anya and Spike at the end of the day. Like, how could it not be? But basically everything Jinx said, I'm like. Isn't it interesting to think about the role that Anya and Spike play on the show and how, how clearly the writers just love writing for them. And to think that they were not series regulars. I know, it's wild. Until, I mean, Anya doesn't, I think, enter the credits until season five. And then, you know, Spike only sort of partway through season four. So they're, you know, I always think of those, like the high school era and the post high school era with this sort of like weird, one college season interregnum. And like. Where they actually went to college. Yeah, exactly. Buffy quits college in this half and you're like, I forgot you were even going. I honestly was glad that it was like formally acknowledged, right? I thought it felt important. And a nice professor. For one. So that's really nice. But yeah, the way in which Anya and Spike are so crucial to the success of the show and. Indelible. Having them come in like mid run is just a fascinating. And it just like really changes the entire flavor. Because like, you know, Xander and Willow and Oz and a bunch of, and Cordelia certainly were like. Yeah. The quippy, funny, charismatic characters, whatever. But as Willow and Xander's arcs sort of like deepen and darken and all these other things. We still need that effervescence and the constant sort of like wit and witticism. And it comes from them. Sorry, we were talking about Glory though, allegedly. Well, perhaps notable that the conversation went to other characters. Because I think, so, you know, it's a very entertaining and watchable villain. And I think some of the stuff that we get to hear Glory say to Buffy, you know, you may be tiny queen in vampire world. But to me, you're a bug. We get that sense of perspective and the heft and the might of Glory, obviously, where that builds to in the season with Buffy confronting the fact that actually, for real, this is not a winnable fight in the way that the other ones have been. Yeah. That's all great. The comedy is great. I thought that the, in terms of, especially because, you know, one of the best moments of this stretch of episodes, the season, the series, and the history of television was something I had already heard out of context completely, but now have the full appreciation of. Like, Anya, if you are not, human, or you weren't, and then you are grappling with what it means to be human, how do you navigate that? And it's just breathtaking in the body. To put Glory in the, like, noxious version of that, at the end, when the veil is fading between Ben and Glory. Just feeling, like, infected with human feelings. Yeah, exactly. And, like, you know, this is what the poets are always going on about. It's one of those things where I think, logically, that's an interesting intention to give us multiple characters who are like, I have to face what it means to be human. And something about it is uncomfortable. But you have this, like, historic high in one area, and then Glory doing a version of it that doesn't quite measure up. But I like the intention of it. Honestly, like, I just think the Ben part doesn't work. Yeah. It's like, he's not quite the Riley-level drip, but he is, like, a little bit of a snooze to me. And I think that it's not, in a show that typically does a, I think, really great job, given that almost every week, even in the big bad of it all, there's new canon, new lore, new demon or element that we are seeking to quickly establish and understand. I think this tipped a bit for me from building the mystery and waiting and biding our time into, like, how much sense did this all make? Their attempts to keep Glory at bay is, and the sort of bullshit explanation they come up with is sort of Glory wondering, like, oh, if Ben's humanity was what was keeping her from killing Buffy this entire time when really she should have killed her in the very first fight they have this season. Yeah. It's always. Yeah. It's always a challenge for a Buffy season. Let's talk about the better plotted ones. When you have the Master, okay, he's physically trapped, you know, in season one. He can't get out. He sends so many people after Buffy, but the Master's trapped until he ascends, right? Yeah. And then… uh you know the spike drusilla angel of it all like that's incredibly complicated and nuanced and wonderful um and then the mayor god tear i mean yeah incredible and faith mayor and faith as sort of like this this duo and in season three and then let's not talk about the initiative but like it's always this thing where they like we meet the mayor a couple times you know we meet him we're like oh this guy's a demon and then he like becomes this more serious that that's the the rhythm of the show when you haven't gloria's already at the peak of her powers it's not like she grows in power she has this achilles to achilles heels which is like her mental decay if she needs to suck the sanity out of people and then also she can be killed when she's inside of ben's form like those are the two sort of big weaknesses other than that like super speed like super strength all this sort of stuff like that has been there throughout so it's not like there was a limiting factor on her right the mayor didn't eat a big box of spiders before he could like be certain things you know what i mean and so um oh man so i i i think they sort of miscalibrated that a bit this season i do think though coming off of the initiative anything is going to feel better and if you wonder that like if you want to be the most generous you version of yourself that you can be you can say glory is not really the point of the season but yeah in terms of that sort of like we introduced her she's fun but we need to come up with a reason why this all-powerful being wouldn't have you know figured a figured out who the key was and be killed every one at this point you know yeah and i totally and i think the other thing that feels distinct from i mean not that we were rooting for anyone with who was with the master but like in all except for you always always darla shout out darla i do love darla um darla's really having a time on angel right now uh the character it's so there was a mention you know when drew comes back there's like the allusion to what darla is up to and it did it i did have a moment where i was like despite my you want to want bold claims that i'm gonna wait should i just see what darla's up to like the you know drusilla uh spike angel we're so invested in characters in that dynamic in a way that makes it really complex we're very invested in faith even when she loses us it's just messier this is like i'm like i like jinx i think jinx is funny but there's no one in glory's orbit i'm rooting for right and we should be rooting for ben but we're not and when ben has this sort of like fall his decision he makes you're just sort of like okay yeah yeah um we got an email from a listener nick who isn't likes the character of glory isn't a huge fan of claire kramer's performance i really like claire's performance but he he made a shout out that i think is true and something that sticks out a bunch inside about the vampire slayer where he said um some actors can pull off the weed and speak or scooby isms if you prefer and some just can't and it i do agree they just sound wrong in glory's mouth and it's true it happens sometimes where you're just sort of like oh this writing's so gimmicky but but on the one hand that might be true of the given writing but on the other hand i really do think that like um that willow and zander uh can sell literally any sort of cutesy little talk tara sometimes i think stumbles i think dawn sometimes stumbles with it and so that sort of speak uh seth green is a master of it you know what i mean like yeah um but it doesn't feel natural in every single person it's like how some actors can like perform shakespeare and it just sounds like modern speak because you're like oh my god i don't know how to do it i don't know how to do it you're like oh i understand exactly what you're saying and some people struggle with that like like the the sorkin yeah pattern yeah you know that's it that's definitely a a thing um on the ass front in case that we don't have another opportunity just shout out the zander moment where he's like i just would get it he wouldn't say anything i didn't get it that was great so great that that was really good and there's something appalling there to be fair but just a great great way to invoke us yeah there are a couple times when zander's like there need to be more men here um dawn zander's like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know and i was made for love made to love you dawn uh shouting out ted that's one of my favorite moments too yeah because like dawn remembers ted that's great hysterical and also i did really appreciate the show acknowledging yeah we're doing another weird flesh robot thing we are way better this time i really love that episode yeah uh that's not one of the two favorites we're going to talk about we're going to talk about our favorites next fan duel is now available everywhere in the u.s so you can get in on the sports action no matter 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prescription medicine for adults with active psoriatic arthritis serious allergic reactions increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur before treatment get checked for infections and tuberculosis tell your doctor if you have an infection flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine imagine being a million miles away explore the possibilities ask your doctor about trim fire tap this ad to see new joint data and learn more about trim fire including important safety information season 5 episode 16 the body written and directed by dr. by joss whedon mallory rubin you knew this plot point was coming which i think is my fault yes well yeah i mean i wouldn't say fault it was your doing i did it it was me uh and you knew this but you also knew this episode was extremely well regarded so how did it stack up to knowing you know you weren't surprised and devastated at the end of i was made to love you the way that the rest of us were i will say when you watch i was made to love you and buffy's wearing the like red v-neck sweater and you're just like the whole episode you're just like i i will say i knew what what waited for me in the body i didn't know what waited for me in the body i knew what waited for me in the body i did not know that i was going to learn that joyce had died at the end of the sex robot episode so that was a bit of a moment yeah um geez so we've talked a lot over the years on we've had various reasons to talk about when something is really hyped yeah like can it possibly measure up and you know i think we've talked about this across the process and i think it's really important to talk about this because i think it's really important to talk about this because i think it's really important to talk about this because we talked about this a little bit when we got to hush like you know i know even though i had never seen buffy i know the body hush once more with feeling like i know i've just heard these invoked enough to know like what the you're plugged in your hip couldn't be less true but thank you for saying it um and with hush obviously a very different episode i said a version of this where it's like you know not only did it not fail to measure up it was somehow better and like more gripping than i thought it would be just because of the pleasure of actually getting to experience it and then understanding why it means so much to people right um this was like really an all-timer in terms of not only meeting the hype but somehow exceeding it like i just thought this was one of the best episodes of tv ever i mean this is easily my favorite buffy episode easily and i just thought it was like breathtaking for all of the reasons that people who are listening to this pod who surely love this episode and have loved buffy for a long time um probably also love it i you know i knew that that joyce was gonna die i had heard again out of context so it didn't hit his heart but i had heard you had played the the anya speech in the scooby dorm room scene um but just every single part of this all of which i'm i'm excited to discuss now you know the the the non-supernatural aspect of it the filming and just stylistic choices in terms of the framing the use or lack of use of of sound the language choices like the the way that the body is invoked throughout right um you know the the the the dream like almost like hallucinogenic moments for for buffy um just the way that this entire episode which is like a portrait of of deep and astonishing grief is is rooted fully in the routine thing uh i just thought was like kind of gobsmacking in its confidence and execution you know knowing that uh really all we're frankly even to the point where at the end even though i loved every every part of this episode when the vampire gets up off the slab i'm like we don't need like any of that in this episode now there's something very effective about the way that plays out in that sequence of course but you know this is an episode about like the the sheen of sweat on buffy's face as she hears the children crying laughing out in the yard, like experiencing a child-- That is now for her definitively over the lingering shot of the paper towel just soaking up the moisture of Buffy's vomit on the rug. The framing of the paramedic where it's like this almost disembodied aspect of a mouth saying words to you about a thing that like can't possibly be true. Just all of those choices. And, you know, the Buffy and Giles and Dawn of it all. Amazing. I think the Willow, Tara, Xander, Anya scene is my favorite Buffy scene. It's mine too. It's unbelievable. Yeah. The Scooby Dorm scene is for some reason my favorite section of this episode. And, yeah, maybe my favorite episode section of Buffy. Just the way those four dynamics. It's interesting when you rewatch the season and you see something like Triangle, which makes much of Willow and Anya's sort of – which hasn't been – It's been like a consistent thing throughout. But, like, you know, there's been eye rolls at Anya. But they really sort of ramp up the tension between the two. So then when you have this breaking moment where Willow, like, cannot be polite with Anya at all, it, you know, it feels seeded in advance. I love everything you said. The fact that Whedon has talked about the fact that this is – a lot of it is based on him processing his own mom's death makes a lot of sense in certain stylistic choices. Like the numbers on the phone looking really big. Like, or just, like, something he remembered from his own personal experience. You know what I mean? It's just sort of, like, you can't invent those things. You have to experience those things. And even if we haven't experienced those things, the authenticity of it just, like, really rings true. I think it's amazing. I love – I don't love that you mentioned the vomit. But I love that you mentioned vomit. Something that I really love about this episode is the way in which, like, the various, like, liquid – bodily fluids. Buffy's vomit. Xander's blood. Dawn's snot in the bathroom. Everyone's tears. Like, this physical matter of being alive, of your body producing things that Joyce's will no longer – Joyce is not only never drinking fruit punch again. She's never vomiting again. And she's never bleeding that way again. And she's never going to snot again and all this. So just the aliveness of the negative space around Joyce that's left here inside of this episode I think is incredible. The mom, mom, mommy. From Sarah, which we'll get another mommy in forever and also it'll come up again in a different season, like, absolutely kills me. Sarah is incredible in this episode. There is a one-er at the beginning of the episode. So, like, you know, a one-shot, no-cuts section that Sarah did seven times all the way through. And I just, like, cannot imagine the emotional exhaustion of performing that. An all-time. TV sequence with no cuts, no breaks, seven times through is just incredible to me. I – the mommy in this episode in forever just absolutely destroyed me. Another moment in that sequence that, like, just hit me so hard was the – on the phone, you know, calling 911. Yeah. The CPR conversation. Yeah. The, like, no, I don't remember because – and this will then be from this point forward. This has always been present in the whole run of the show. But from this point forward, really, this is very central on what Buffy is navigating internally and then what Buffy will navigate with others, most especially with Giles the rest of the season, building toward this massive decision, this sacrifice and the gift. This question of, like, is Buffy just a kid? Is Buffy – so in the gift, when we get that, like, you're just a girl, like, that's – That's what I keep saying. It's just so – It's just so connected to the whole series to that point. But, like, to – it's so good. Yeah. And to a moment like this. And so the idea of the pressure that Buffy feels to – because it's real. It's not actually just something Buffy feels. It's real. Like, you have to know and you have to figure it out and you have to be the one to save us. And so this moment of just, like, I don't remember a thing that has nothing to do ultimately with being the Slayer, but it's something that, like, just people learn or they don't and then they need or they don't. And it's scary. And she's afraid. And then actually trying to do it and they're like, oh, my God, I heard something crack. Crack. And these are just such – I mean, that's Slayer strength, of course. But it's also, like, just such a normal terrifying thing to witness that has to do with being still a really young person in the world and also a person who is facing losing her parent, right? There is nothing that Buffy could have done, as the doctors will say and as I firmly believe, right? Yeah. Yeah. You won't believe that. But that is – that, I think, is true. All that being said, the fact that her Slayer strength, which is the thing that has enabled her to save so many lives, is a detriment to her in this moment when she's trying to perform CPR on her mom. Again, it was too late. The body was already cold. But, like, you know, that is so beautiful and poignant and horrifying. Also, like, so the real time – so we have – the episode's broken into basically, like, these little one acts, right? You've got Buffy and Giles at the Summer's Craftsman. You've got Dawn at school. You've got Scooby's, our favorite section. You've got the hospital and then the morgue. That's all one thing, the hospital and then the morgue. Right. And time unfurls in real time across those. We are with these characters as, you know, we watch the doctor walk all the way down the hallway. We have to wait for the ambulance to show up. We have to wait for Giles to show up. Right. We walk down the hall with Dawn. Dawn and her friend from the bathroom into the art class. We watch Xander Park. We have to wait for Xander and Anya to come. So, Xander Parks. Yeah. And then we have to wait for Xander and Anya to, like, come upstairs. And so we're with Tara and Will, like, waiting for that. We wait with Tara and Buffy in the waiting room when everyone else is out doing things. Great. Tremendous Tara moment, obviously. Really good. And then we walk with Dawn down the hallway into the morgue. Like, we're just – the way in which the lack of score, which you already mentioned. Yeah. Where we're forced to sit in the silences and forced to sit in the waiting of the bizarre time dilation of this. Yeah. It just sort of, like, time stops, but then it also doesn't and everything keeps going and you have to keep slaying vampires by the end. Or, like, the moment that kills me in the opening sequence with Buffy at home is when she, like, wishes the paramedics good luck on their next assignment. Oh, my God. Yeah. This just sort of rote politeness that she's performing because she doesn't know how to exist inside of her own community. She doesn't know how to exist inside of her own grief. Yeah. Let's take it sort of section by section. Let's talk about Buffy and Giles. What do you want to say about, you know, it's largely Buffy until Giles arrives, but this sequence here? Man, I think to your point about just the time dilation and the – what does it actually feel like in every second of that? You know, we have the 911 call. We have the Giles call. That all feels right, like that those would be the things that Buffy did, but also then those moments building up toward Giles arriving of, like, not knowing. Not knowing what to do and how to fill that moment of devastation. I think my favorite single choice in there is Buffy looking at Joyce's body and fixing her skirt because it's, like, a lot of things in this episode actually reminded me of my favorite movie ever, Ordinary People. And one of the things that I just, like, that just destroys me in that, which is a movie about death and grief and the inability to, like, cope with the things. Things that happen and you're a hand in them, right? Or you're wondering if you played a role, even if that's not a fair weight to put on yourself. And the – without going into too much detail about Ordinary People. You should watch it if you haven't. It's devastating, but beautiful. I've just always been gobsmacked by, like – I'm moving between two scenes here, this and the Scooby dorm room scene. But the, like – we were going to our son's funeral. Like, why did it matter what I was wearing on my funeral? And, like, it's – in that movie, it's, like, there's, like, a villainous presence there, right? There's a nefarious force there. So it's different tonally and emotionally. But when Willow is, like, what do I wear? Like, where's the blue sweater that Joyce loved? Or, like, what does it mean if I show up in a cheerful shirt? Right. These are the things – What does purple mean? Yeah. These, like, are the things that you think about when you don't know how to navigate the horror. They're in front of you. It just is human nature. And so the skirt is a version of that because it's, like, I don't know what to do about the thing that has just happened. So I can do this. But also there's the dissonance of trying to preserve the modesty of your mother and a woman and a person who is about to be, like – Put on the slab. Put on the slab. Yeah. The – modesty is the perfect word. But the – The phrase that popped in my mind was, like, human dignity. Yeah. And so it's just sort of, like – The last preservation of that. But, like, to all these other people, she is, you know, merely the body. Right. It's not the body of my mom. Right. Oh, my God. And then, of course, Sarah's performance of Buffy's reaction when she says, we can't move the body. Oh, my God. And her just, like, horror that she has said this. That's unbelievable. Unbelievable. And so, yeah, with Giles coming in in that moment and the, like – it's just the damn breaks. And he sees – then they just like kind of fold into each other. Right. And There are, you know, last pod, it was like, this felt like a kind of weirdly Giles-lite stretch of episodes on the both dad and daddy categories that we have. Not so here. The dad moments from Giles in the stretch, either where he is behaving that way or where one of the characters, like Buffy, is really looking to him that way. To the extent where, which I found beautiful across the episodes, including here, I mean, the way that he is there to just, like, cocoon her and try to comfort her at the end at the hospital. And he's like, I'll fuck the forms. You know, frankly, it made a couple of the moments in these stretches of episodes feel not wrong. It, like, made sense in the context of the moments. But when he's like, well, you're Dawn's family. I'm like, but you're all, no, you're all. Or when Buffy said to him, like, well, this is a family thing. It's like, no, that's like, you're all. This is a family. And we see that a lot of times. Honestly, an enormous bone I have to pick with this series, and we will discuss it more in later seasons. But, like, the, I understand what they're trying to explore in this sort of, like, Buffy has to grow up all at once. Yeah. Which she has always, has always been part of her story. But, like, I think they, in order to force that, they have made the decision to have certain characters around her behave in, I think, an uncharacteristic way. Of just sort of, like, this is your job instead of Dawn is ours. Yeah. To take care of. Dawn is your sister. You have to do it. Right. Which I don't think is something Giles would do. Yeah, exactly. Or any of the other characters do. I really agree. Yeah. The other Giles aspect, of course, of this, like, the, what we get from Joyce in I Was Made to Love You is that she's, like, going out on a date with this guy, Brian. Brian who sent her flowers, you know? And, like, of course, it's a classic. People do this all the time in storytelling. Whedon is particularly guilty of this. This is, um. This is Jenny and Giles are going to have a date right before Jenny dies. It's just sort of, like, Joyce gets to be her, like, most human, effervescent, funny, vulnerable self in the episode right before, or the very episode she dies in, actually. But what's hanging over this, of course, is also the, like, Giles' own relationship with Joyce. Which is not, like, Giles is, like, carrying a torch for Joyce. He did not seem, like, upset that she was going out with Brian. But, like, in Forever, the episode that comes after this, we get this sequence. That absolutely kills me. Where Giles is in his house listening to the record that he played for Joyce and Band Candy. Just sort of, like, thinking about his own as the father figure to Buffy. It's certainly not you, Hank Summers, and Joyce as the mother figure. Like, they had this sort of, like, youthful sexual adventure. But also just, like, they had their own relationship. This isn't Buffy's mom. This is Joyce Summers who meant something to Giles as well. And so that is hanging over this, him entering the scene here. I mean, it's even directly invoked in this episode because one of those, like, dream states we get. We end episode 15 with, like, Joyce's dead body on the couch. And then we open the body with that exact scene, the end of episode. There's no, like, previously on it. It's just the end of episode 15 playing again. And then we go into this, like, family dinner. Everyone's there. Joyce is alive and well. They're all talking. The Scoobies are there. Buffy and Dawn. And Giles is there. There's, like, Anya. They're talking about, oh, Santa Claus. The myth is that it's a myth, right? It just feels like any moment that these characters could have shared together. They go into the kitchen. Joyce and Giles and Buffy. And band candy is mentioned. So to, like, you know, I think, and intentionally, obviously, to remind us of all of the history between these characters. And, like, you know, the way that even then those, when is Buffy in some sort of, like, okay, I am experiencing unreality. They're all different. They all function. They function differently. Yeah, like, that is what was lost. What will I not experience again? The Shire, you know. Yeah, exactly. The, we travel briefly to the pit, right? The, like, baguette we're going to intubate. Yeah. The rapid cuts. So, I mean, you know. You already know as a viewer. But you know in that stretch, that's not the way that sequence would go. We wouldn't be moving that quickly from moment to moment where, oh, Joyce is up. And we're in the ambulance. And the things they're saying about just a true miracle. And then, you know, we know that the pace of that is wrong, right? And so it's, like, the thing that, it's wish fulfillment, right? Yeah, the show is not trying to fool you. Right. With that, yeah. It's putting us in Buffy's head and desire. And then the next version of it that we get, I might be forgetting one, but I think is the conversation with the doctor at the end where he's like, absolutely, I have to lie to you to make you feel better. And it's just seamlessly integrated into the flow of that conversation just for a line. Yeah. You know, so each of, there's a through line across the episode of not wanting to exist in the reality of what has happened. But each of those manifests differently and tells us something different. It's great. Something I love about that holiday meal flashback, because that's a real memory, not a fantasy, is the reason Whedon put it there is he didn't want the cast credits to play over Sarah's. Sarah's performance with Joyce. So he jammed that in after the opening credits so that, you know, you could have all those things, all the white script on the bottom of the screen happen over the sequence. So it's like, you know, necessity being the mother of invention. It's like a beautiful sequence that does all those things thematically and then also serves as practical, I don't want to get in the way of my own art sort of idea inside of the episode. So good. Dawn at school. Man. You know, we open with this fake out of like Dawn Curry. Crying over, you know, being bullied and a boy she likes and these very teenage concerns. Dawn enters the story here. You can feel however you want to feel about Dawn, but she re-injects this sort of like school is hell or teenage concerns having to sit side by side. So we get this like, you know, her very own bitchy Cordelia sort of like in the hallway making like making up stories about her, but also based in reality about her. Like. Cutting her arm open and all these other things. The fact that this boy is actually quite nice to her. Dawn has a friend. That's right. That's nice to see. Something that the show will continue to struggle with, honestly. But like she briefly has a friend in this episode. The way that the sound cuts out that, you know, Buffy comes in and she and Dawn are in the hallway and apparently they shot the scene a number of different ways. And one of the ways was like we're with them in the hallway. But they went with this. He decided to go with this version of like shooting from inside the classroom so we don't hear it. And we just – we linger on like her friend and this boy that she has a crush on and just sort of like their horror but also what comes with that, which is the gratitude of like this kind of grief isn't touching me today. You know? I don't have to – whatever this is, which is seismic, whatever it is, even if we can't hear it, is seismic. And it's not something that I have to deal with today. And then they cast this actress as the art teacher who I think looks so much like Joyce. No question. And it's just like so haunting to see her there. The style in the air. Yeah. I mean, everything. Yeah. I really like quite liked the choice to take us into school with Dawn in this stretch because, you know, it achieves a few things. I mean, I think like there are other moments in the season where, you know, there's like a comedy beat where Dawn is like, man, they put – you know, the monks put like K through 8. They can't just do 9. Like it's – you know, or when we learn that Dawn, after finding out that she's the key, was like talking shit at school and said things to the teachers that they couldn't – she got suspended. Or when Buffy goes in, basically has to be in the role of like parent-teacher conference and, you know, we witness part of it and then learn later that one of the things that Buffy heard from the principal was like, they're going to take her away. Like, you know, so school and Dawn – Again, I have questions about that. Yeah. I have questions, yeah, about a lot of that. But there's no other version quite like this where it's like because the characters – Dawn, you know, will say to Buffy in the next episode at the end of Forever when they have really a wonderful scene together and they both say hurtful things to each other, born out of genuine anxiety and fear for both of them. This question of like, I'm just your – it's like, I'm just your job. Because that is Dawn's fear. That she's evil, that she's a source of all of this pain for other people, but also that she's a thing, she's a concept, she's a construct. Right. We have to see her exist as a person in her own life. It's not just enough for us to hear Buffy or the other characters say that to her. So even though it's just a couple minutes, it does, I think, help root us in Dawn is a kid who goes to school every day. She has a life outside of – And Dawn has friends. Yeah. And Dawn has a crush. And it's like – Very quick, but I thought was really – Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really important in terms of what comes after. In terms of what you were saying about the use of the window and the grief on display. Sorry. Can I just really quickly say that like on the Dawn humanity front, it's a – you know, Dawn again, not a character I always, always, always, always love. And there are some things in Blood Ties, you know, that the fandom loves to make fun of in terms of her being like, get out, get out, get out. Like it's an iconic sort of Dawn, let's make fun of Dawn moment. But the conversation between Buffy and Dawn, which is played again in the film. And the finale, of course, because they're talking about the summer's blood. But when Dawn is talking to her about the summer's blood that they share, I just think it's a really beautiful under – like because there's this theme. of chosen family which is constant throughout Buffy underlined especially in the terror episode Buffy but that is also the episode where Buffy tells Giles like this is who Dawn is so the idea of like Dawn is chosen family right but also like if we prick you do you not bleed you are you are a human right so like we have the same blood we choose you we have chosen you you are chosen to us you are the chosen one in a certain way but also you bleed you're a human girl right your blood is the same as my blood and so like that that underlining of like Dawn is a real person a real girl I think that's beautiful what you mentioned about just showing her outside of that context of the family will we see Kevin again young Kevin and his his charcoal drawing skills I have no idea I was struck by the the observation of the Dawn Buffy moment through that yeah pane of glass as well because this will sound uncharitable I don't really mean it that way but it's like I thought it was intentionally a way of showing us the like voyeuristic aspect of this too you know when you grieve there's really like like they're watching the body they're yeah it's like there's this is the most private thing right you have lost your parent you have lost a family member you have lost one of the closest people to you in the world and everybody else is watching you and the thing that I love one of the things I love about this episode is it shows us that in all sorts of ways like it's also true you know when it's well-intentioned and when it comes from a place of deep love and affection all the Scoobies want to be there at the morgue because they want to support Buffy but that also means there's a lot of moments of like do you need anything are you okay which comes from a place of care and protection here are all the snacks which do you want that felt so true to life to me where you're like you don't know what to do and how to help your friend but then there's the part of it when you're the person who's feeling that where you're like everyone wants to know if I'm okay or if I'm okay or is wondering what's happened to me yeah or I don't know that you have to I'm sure that there are some mentally healthy people who don't but like when I when I had my health stuff last year and everyone was like so lovely 10 out of 10 no no zero complaints but something that a friend of mine who had gone through something similar told me is she was like you can't even understand how much energy you are going to spend trying to make other people feel okay about what you're going through and again no one is asking that of you it's just sort of like a very human response and so yeah everyone's like really all anyone wants to do hopefully is like support you and help you but another side of that is that you as the person are just sort of like I'm okay it's okay everything's okay you know because you want to you want to make it feel small for them and again I hope that there are some mentally healthy people out there who are just sort of like I'm not okay this is terrible because that's what we should do but I feel like that's mostly not what we do yeah at the end of the day totally Buffy saying to Tara like I'm really sorry that you're having to deal with all this and Tara's like you don't have to like say that to me but in those moments it does feel like you like have to but again Tara's the one who's been through it so she can say like I know I know what you're feeling in a way that they can't understand another great example of what happens in this episode really continuing to have an impact on the characters and the relationships moving forward as it should because it's seismic it's like when Willow and this will come up in I think various other moments of the pod and categories today but the those Willow Tara fights and Willow like I'm the junior partner and like that was I thought fascinating and also felt very true to life to me and I just really admire the show's interest in exploring those aspects of like how difficult it is to go through hard things with people you love like it's hard to go through hard things without people you love but it's also hard to go through them with people you love and it just captures this so so amazingly let's talk about Tara and Willow let's go to the Scooby scene with our first clip here can't do this we can do this okay we can be there for Buffy and Dawn I don't die when Willow cries we cry so actually I had a I had a different reason for putting this clip in here but once I picked the clip I was like oh we should talk about the fact that there's like a historic kiss inside of this episode which is like they had not let Tara and Willow kiss they had done a lot of like magic is metaphor for sex or like they cuddle in bed or they have a dance where they you know raise up off the ground or stuff like that but they do not kiss they kiss here it's sort of like smuggled inside of this episode in a way that like which I think is very clever of Whedon in terms of like he's like I'm not gonna do a like big deal we're doing which at the time they like when Ellen like came out on the TV show Ellen or whatever like in a similar timeline it was like a very special episode and a really big deal and all that sort of stuff like that he's like we're not gonna do that we're gonna sort of smuggle in in the middle of this other seismic episode that is like so big that like in a way that I that I don't think like diminishes the impact of this this is like this ends a like Warner Brothers policy of no same-sex kisses on the network like is ended here you know what I mean which is devastatingly late and all this other stuff like that but like I don't think it's minimizing the importance of it I think he just wants to underline like this is a part of life this is a part of their life they are in love and this is what people in love do and they lean on each other and how beautiful that they are there to support each other the reason I had this here because I forgot the kiss came in the middle when Willow says I can't do this and Tara says we can do this that's a hugely important thing and then immediately after when Willow's like little Dawn like the way in which this Scooby scene unfolds and every character except for Tara who's just in full-time caretaking mode but every character sort of like shifts in terms of like who's caretaking who and the way in which like a way through grief when you don't know what to do is if you can take care of someone else through it all of a sudden you have something to do and some place to direct yourself so like Willow at complete loose ends trying to figure out what to wear you know and just in shambles but Xander shows up and Xander's feeling a certain way and Willow switches into like sort of like okay come fight me you know like she's taking care of Xander there and she's thinking about we need to take care of Dawn which is again something they will put a lot on Buffy when like I really feel like all of them would would do it a bit more or then Anya's confusion comes into play you know and and so just sort of that like sort of like handing off of who's falling apart in a given moment and who's taking care of whom is is the core of this show is Buffy Willow Xander that friendship that family that unit and the way in which they show up for each other and especially when we've been talking about this season the separation between Willow and Buffy how they hardly have any moments where we remember that they're friends there's an incredible moment in Weight of the World which matters so much because we've been missing it sure and it's it's logical and it makes sense that you grow up and you maybe sort of like sink deeper into your romantic relationships so like Xander and Anya and Willow and Tara and like you know these are their core relationships that they're building you know Willow's like Tara's not just my girlfriend she's my everything you know what I mean and so like but what that means is that there's less room in her life for Buffy but the way in which these various puzzle pieces have always fit back together at the end by the time we come around to a season finale is is why the show matters the way that it matters and this scene is such like an important snapshot of that like foundation of this entire journey oh my god I love that I just thought this was unbelievable and like so real just so so so real you know when somebody you love and care about deeply suffers a loss you often what happens is that like you feel helpless you feel a desire to help them but you don't know how yeah you also don't know how to help them so don't know how to help yourself I love what you're saying about the healthy hot potato of like who is the caregiver and the nurturer in a given moment and who needs to be cared for and nurtured but I think also there's an aspect of like if you are reminded of who you are to somebody right then you also are reminded of who the person they just lost was to them and so like I mentioned this last pod that one of the things I had to kind of keep reminding myself throughout this season was that Xander and Willow have known each other their entire lives that comes up I thought very effectively in the Anya-Willow argument in Triangle you know you two have known each other forever like I will never have that but that actually was not true for Buffy right but still these are these formative years and obviously for these characters these deeply formative experiences And so it's the time since Buffy. If he came to Sunnydale that Buffy and Xander and Willow have had together. But it's also like you just right away you start thinking of those moments like they're at the summer's house or Joyce is bringing them more chips. And like, you know, you really took me back to like thinking about like my friend's parents. You get so close to some of your friend's families when you're young. Especially like the I don't know if you have this in your friend group, but like the one person whose house you always go to. You're at all the time. Yeah. Shout out Hillary's parents. Shout out the Sapersteins. Yeah. The Dommishes. Shout out the Dommishes. They had an entire beverage fridge in their garage for us. It was just like the best. What was in it? Some Yoohoo? Some sodas? Sodas. You know, like whatever we wanted. Sunny D, Capri Sun. I just always thought that was like the coolest thing that they had a separate fridge in their garage that was just for like drinks for us. It's incredible. And yeah, I don't know. Like I it's just a really hard thing to watch somebody you love grieve. And when that person is also the person who is gone is also close to you. It's. It's just like such a almost existential kind of thing. I on again on the front of like how the show continues to acknowledge the events of the body moving forward in little subtle, really effective ways. Something like Willow saying in a subsequent episode, like, I'm just going to go see my mom. Like, I've been doing that more. You know, things like that. It just really feels rooted in the experience of how you would navigate something like this. I already talked about the outfit thing. I just thought that was like. Just just genius and incredible. The the Tara Willow moment is beautiful that we can do this. The we can be strong. Like Amazon's. Like Amazon's. You know, Xander having a moment that I think was reasonable to expect the audience would have of like, we show this wasn't glory or we show there's not another explanation. I thought it was smart that that. Well, Giles, too, when when Buffy calls Giles and she's like, she's here at the house and you roll. And he's like, is it glory? What's happening? And, you know, that's important because I think there would be people at home who are wondering. And but also then because it's for me, at least, I think so much more effective that that's not. Yes. The answer and the tragedy of like, no matter who you are and what superpowers you have and what evil you have thwarted, like terrible things happen all the time. And and this is, you know, there's a lot of battles, little battles that Buffy loses. But like she. She stops every spoiler, stops every single apocalypse, like every apocalypse that comes. She stops, you know, so she can't save every single person, but she saves she saved the world a lot. Like, that's what she did. Right. Put it on. Put it on. Put it on the tombstone. So like, but this is just not something this is just. Yeah, this is just life. And this is something that, you know, Dawn sort of encounters this a bit in forever when she talks about like this resurrection. There's this idea of like. You know, what can magic do and what it can't do. And this idea of like you can't like a natural death, a death that just occurs naturally is not something that you can like turn back time on our listener Jasmine. Actually, we got a number of emails about this, but our listener Jasmine wrote in about this like fairly popular fan theory that Joyce's brain tumor is supernaturally connected. I don't hold with this, but I just thought I would mention it just because we got so many emails about it. And Jasmine comes with some some. Bonafides. Jasmine says, I'm a developmental psychologist and there's evidence that becoming a parent changes the brain. Specifically, studies that take scans of parents' brains have observed a thinning of the cortex. We're just starting to understand this process and its consequences. Joyce's doctor mentioned that her tumor was an. OK, here we go. Oligodendroglioma. You think so? OK. I got to get ready for the pit season three. OK, which Wikipedia tells me arises mainly in the frontal lobe. Even though many called Joyce's death natural and not magical. I can't help but wonder. If the monks cramming 14 years of caregiving plus pregnancy into Joyce's brain all at once had negative consequences for her brain and caused her tumor, which was in an area that sees change during pregnancy and caregiving. We also hear very little, if anything, from Buffy's father for the rest of the series. I'm also curious how he was affected by this. Well, I don't really care about Hank Summers, but but Jasmine's just voicing a very popular theory, which is like the creation of Dawn and all of that info being jammed into Joyce's brain. Could that have been connected to the tumor? I much a the writers have never. Said anything like that, be I much prefer the version of the story where this is just like a mortal thing that have, you know, because that's part of what Anya says, right? It's stupid. It's mortal. Right. Should we watch a bit of Anya's speech? Please. There's just a body and I don't understand why she just can't get back in it and not be dead anymore. It's stupid. It's mortal and stupid. And Xander's crying and not talking. And I was having fruit punch and I thought, well, Joyce will never. Have any more fruit punch ever. And she'll never have eggs or yawn or brush her hair. Not ever. And no one will explain to me why. Unbelievable. Oh, my God. Emma Caulfield, everyone. Why? In that mention, the way that she's talking about Xander and like, again, in terms of that idea of like caretaking is she's just like Xander. So, you know, we before they arrive, we see them in the car and there's. Dead silence in the car. Right. They're not talking to each other. Yeah. But her desire to like she does she care about Joyce? Yes. But she's only like basically two years old. Anya, like she just got here as a human. Right. So she doesn't understand your human ways. Right. Essentially like a like a toddler's response. Right. To death. Right. But also as like a I care. I like Joyce. Fine. Xander's my person. Yeah. And Xander's devastated. And I don't know how to fix that. But I really I really love that. That's part of again that that emotional support hot potato that you termed it. I love that, too, the like and, you know, there's the tonal evolution we're building so effectively toward that incredibly raw speech from the kind of more familiar clipped comedy. What feels to us like comedy because it's coming from Anya. And so even the tenderness with which Anya says previously, like Xander cried, you know, it was it was it was. And it's because it's like this Xander's the quippy joke guy. You know, Xander's the fun sex guy. So like to see Xander just break down of you can even though we didn't witness it. We can so palpably feel how Anya would have been receiving it. I also think it's tremendous inside of this episode that there are successful comedy beats inside of so much grief and torment like Anya finding the blue sweater and then just tucking it away in the drawers like one. But like. Xander punching the wall and like, who's your drywall guy? And Willow being like, you know, I've never asked, never thought to ask. Like, it's just like it's just because you do you laugh, you laugh through grief as well, you know. And so, yeah, any time that Xander and Willow remember that they're best friends is, you know, very important to me. And the sequence is amazing. Anything else you want to say about this? I think just I mean, it's beautiful and it's heart wrenching. I think that there's something about it, about the Anya speech in particular. But all of it. That's really what she's asking here. Right. I knew her. And then she's there's just a body. Right. It's stupid. It's mortal. It's stupid. No one will explain to me why. So much of the rest of this season, the finale, but in general, the series, the distinction between Buffy, the Scoobies and the foe is very, very routinely rooted in the idea of humanity. This is always what. Even in this. In this in this season, the question of like, well, OK, Angel had a soul. Well, I've got a chip. That's not the same thing. You know, there are so many different moments and manifestations for examining the idea of like, what does it mean to be human and what does it mean to not be human? And often that is the superpower. Right. And so it is like to see the other side of it, which is the one. Not everybody who's watching the show is going to know what it's like to be the chosen one. But everyone experiences a moment like that. Right. Where they're like, I. I don't know how to cope or process with the thing that has just happened. And I don't know why it has to be this way. And again, the build of Anya through this season of like in Triangle or and I was made to love you when there's the two, the double joke of like her talking about the way that the robot April talks, this like clipped, overly literal manner. And Xander's like, you know, some guys kind of like that. Like the way in which Anya is robotic in nature. I can't remember if I told you this, but when I was like trying to pitch a friend of mine in college to like join the Buffy bandwagon because I knew she would love it. And she was a huge Star Trek Next Generation fan. And some of the Buffy writers came from that world. But like I was explaining the role of the Anya character and she's like, oh, she's the Data. Data being the android from Star Trek. You know, like I don't understand her human ways. And it's a way in which a writer can like really drill into what it means to be human by giving you something. But yeah, all of Anya is like, I'm a former demon moments that are played for comedy, like in Checkpoint when she's so worried about the Watcher's Council showing up. Incredible. And she's just sort of like, I'm not a demon anymore. With my father. With my father. And I was young and small. Yeah. All of that stuff is played for comedy. And then she like shows up here and it's like this huge obstacle to her belonging in this room. And I just, you know, so she goes and sits in the corner. Like Xander doesn't comfort her. Like nobody comforts her when she has this incredible. Well, break time. I mean, like, Willow does a bit with her words. But, like, nobody hugs Anya in that moment. I don't understand why. Like, no one will tell me why. I don't get it. All right. We're in the hospital. Oh, man. And the morgue. What do you want to say about this that we haven't already? I mean, I think the Tara moment's extraordinary. But what else do you want to say? I loved the Tara moment so much in part because it also connects to what we discussed in the first half of this season, the Tara family episode. So this is another, you know, a deepening of our understanding of who Tara is and what she has lost and where she comes from. But also the other thing that we talked about was, like, who has made an effort to get to know Tara? Right. This is a—it's up to Tara to share this. Yeah, Tara's like, my mom died, by the way. But it's also a big thing to not know about someone, you know? And so I just—I don't know. I thought that the way that Tara shared that— Because it felt right for her in that moment, but also it was then clear that it was not a thing that other people, other than Willow, knew. Or even, like, thought about. Like, maybe they knew because, like, you know, her dad shows up in family. So maybe there was a conversation about that. But, like, it's not—they don't hold on to information about Tara. Yeah. She doesn't matter to them in the way that, you know— It's very, very painful. And then on that front, like, what Tara—what I hung on to is, like, Tara saying to Buffy in this stretch, you know, I— I lost my mom. My mom died. And I had these thoughts. And I—there were things in my head that I, like, didn't think should be there. And then that just feels so true for Buffy in so many moments the rest of the season. So that felt like—again, there's just a deftness to the priming in this episode. This is such an emotional dynamo. But there are also so many moments that really, like, position us to receive what comes after. And I thought— I thought the scene was one of them. A couple more things I want to mention. Obviously, of course, because we cover Marvel, we have to mention that Xander says the Avengers get— got to get with the assembling. The nerd—like, the nerd—comic book nerd, Star Wars, et cetera, mentions will ramp up significantly starting in season six going forward. So, like, this is something—which is just sort of, like—I don't know. It's really extremely fun and funny to watch it going forward because— what they're mentioning, you know, if they mention, like, Doctor Doom or they mention this, that, or the other thing, like, which is, like, not obscure but, like, slightly niche. And now we're like, Robert Downey Jr., one of the biggest movies of the year, is playing Doctor Doom. Like, it has become, like, more of the text of our culture. But anyway, how did it feel to hear a Whedon script say, the Avengers got to get with the assembly? Quite good. I also—I got a kick out of that. I also—I—in— I have this coming in one of my categories later, so I'm scooping myself a little bit. But as we talked about pre-podded, there are, like, 800 picks for each category, so it's fine. The—then the last thing she'll see is me protecting her. You'll fail. Exchange is so Cap-Tony-Ultron-like that we'll do that together, too. It's like, this is—this is just the first pass on that exchange. This is just wild. Joss rewriting himself. Yeah. No spike in this episode, and this is the first time he's Abton since he joined the opening credits. Uh, though, of course, he shows up in Forever, uh, and—and we'll talk about that in one of my categories. But, um, but I like that he's not here. It feels—it does feel right. Actually, he doesn't—he doesn't—he doesn't belong here at all. So, as—even as a huge Spike fan, I'm glad he's not here. Um, and then just, like, the investment of time. Okay, so—so Whedon gets this reputation of being, uh, ruthless and killing off characters, right? It starts with Jenny Callender, which we talked—we talked about in season two. Um, we get it here, uh, with Joyce. This is a reputation that he gets. Like, you know, it'll show up in Angel. It'll show up in Firefly. It'll show up in, um, in Avengers and everything going forward, right? And this is pre-Game of Thrones. So, pre what happens in season one of Game of Thrones. So, this was, like, the sort of, like, oh, my God, this is so ruthless, blah, blah, blah. And Jenny Callender, as I detailed in depth—and I don't talk about Jenny anymore, and it really bothers me. Yeah. But, like, Jenny Callender— Um, that death meant so much to me because it—I just didn't know you could do it. Joyce is so different because it is five years of my life with these characters. Yeah. Like, season two, that was, like, about a year—a year of my life with this because it was a midseason. So, like, about a year, Jenny Callender dies. Five years in with these characters. Ninety-four hours of your life, but actually since you watch every episode twice, it's, like, 188 hours, actually, of your life that you've spent, uh, with these. With these characters. So, what matters to them matters so much to us because we've just invested so much time in them. And so, like—and it's one thing to die, to go out fighting a vampire or whatever. It's another thing for Joyce to just feel like she's just, like, ripped untimely from—from her life. Um, and so, uh, also, I'm so much closer in age to Joyce now than I was, uh, when I first watched this show. So, um— Yeah. So, yeah, it's, uh—but that—that thing that television can do, that film can't do. Sure. Uh, and that even reading a book once can't do, which is just sort of, like, that depth of emotional investment over time in characters. And so, when this happens to Joyce, but then also to all the people around Joyce that we care about, it just matters so much to us. Yeah, and—and you just understand what it—what it means to them. I think that, you know, that on that front, the evolution of the Buffy and Joyce relationship over the years, I mean, God, that's—that's part of what we're bringing. I think that, you know, that on that front, the evolution of the Buffy and Joyce relationship over the years, I mean, God, that's part of what we're bringing. With us to this moment, because it's, like, one of the things that has been so fascinating about them as a pair is that they have had so many things to work through and navigate. And so, there's an aspect of, like, feeling a gratitude that they were in a better place, right? Because that's not—that's not always how it goes. But also, there's this, like—it—it heightens in some way for me, like, the finality of it. Like, this is a relationship defined by, like, ebbs and flows and changes, and, like, the changes are done. Yeah. Yeah. Because Joyce is gone, you know? So, you work through, like, all of the challenges when Buffy is, like, a young whippersnapper, and then Joyce's rejection, right, of the truth and—and those questions of identity, which we talked about, you know, so much in—in season two. Yeah. And then the—the distance and the growing up and the change. And, like, I think we—in season four, I was really like, man, I really— Missed Joyce. I missed Joyce. It's, like, where's Joyce? But that also did feel right. Buffy's like, I'm at college. And, like, I didn't—I didn't go far. Five states away, I'm in the same town. So, like, I'm determined to, like, forge this new existence for myself. And then this—for, you know, all these reasons, Dawn and then Joyce's health and Dawn again, like, to be back home, to give us that real immersion in the summer's home of just their time together, like, moments again in the kitchen with breakfast and things like that, you know? And just, like, I don't know. It's just—then you're like, that's never— There's no more of that. It's gone. It's a really interesting way in which they rolled out this death because that's such—I love what you just said. But, like, thinking about all the moments that—all the time we got to spend with Joyce this season, it doesn't feel manipulative. They knew from the beginning of the season. And, in fact, I think Christine Sutherland has said at the end of season three, Joss was like, eventually, I'm planning to kill you. So that's happening. But they knew at the start of the season that that's what they were doing, even though in a 22-episode season, you know, as you're writing, as things are happening. As things are airing, things can change. But this was always the plan. So they knew they wanted us to spend time with Joyce. And they didn't do it just, like, randomly. They gave her this health—so it's not like they were trying to fool us. Like, it's a difference between, like, a shock and awe death and a just sort of, like, Mr. Policeman, we gave you all the clues. Like, she has been suffering through this all season. There have—you know, and there were never any promises from the doctors that everything was going to be fine, you know? And so it's just sort of like, it's so earned because they're just sort of like, here's the path, and we've walked you right up to it. And you're still stunned that it happens unless you were spoiled by your podcast co-host in advance. Again, I don't believe that things that happened more than 20 years ago can be spoiled. I don't. I don't. Okay. I think you're absolved completely. On that point, I—one of the—another moment that I just thought was, like, just perfect in this episode was the—when the paramedics are there and they're asking, any health issues? And Buffy's like, no. Oh, well, there's the brain tumor. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And—or Xander having his moment of, like, how could the doctors let her go? Yeah. Or then the conversation— Xander looking to blame someone. Yes, because that's what you do. You want to be able to put it somewhere, right? Yeah. And, like, then the moment at the hospital where—especially because Buffy is often with Dawn, you know, in the conversation about the wake in the subsequent episode. Like, oh, I didn't know that. Well, like, my— Mom and I talked about it. Buffy is often the one in the position of, like, well, I had all the information and you didn't. So to see Buffy in the other spot where the doctor at the hospital at the end is like—Buffy's like, shouldn't we have known that—okay, you're saying, like, the surgery site. Shouldn't we have known this was a risk? And the doctor's like, Joyce knew. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's the body. Just unbelievable. Is anything going to top that the rest of the way? I don't see how it could. Is this—so Passion is your favorite episode. But do you think that this is the best? I think formally— Is there a best favorite distinction? I think formally this is the best. Yeah. I—if we're doing my favorites— Yeah. As you know, I'm a firm believer of best and favorite are separate lists. I understand that. that yeah uh and i love that you can have a different number one no no no i think in terms of favorite i would probably put it like somewhere around number four okay like it's in the top five favorite but in terms of like technically best technically impressive storytelling i think it's number one yeah interesting okay um for sure though i mean i gotta say like surprise and innocence like the angel turn in terms of like so what can a show do is innocence is still number two on my list yeah i think this is now the number one and then like surprise innocence if i can count a two-parter as number one is number two like that's and then we'll figure it out from there but that's definitely true and we'll do we'll let's do a full ranking when we finish but just knowing that once more was feeling it's a musical episode i have to assume it's very high on your list but we'll find out it's tough it's tough i i re-watched it this last week uh as i told you i sort of spilled into season six and i was like i'll just make it to the musical episode then i'll stop and actually i made it to the one after that and then i was just like okay we can calm down but like because the one after the musical episode is also really good speaking of the one after so the body airs on february 27th forever the follow-up episode airs april 17th so there's seven weeks whoa between the body and the episode that came after this is fairly standard you know there would be like back in the day yeah these like sweeps breaks and all this or something do this i don't know imagine watching the body and then just like having to sit with no new buffy episode for seven weeks anguish yeah if you would have made me guess without looking at the dates i would have predicted i would have said that the break maybe came after forever yeah that makes sense but that's not what they did wild downright cruel season five episode 22 the gift once again written and directed by joss whedon uh two written and directed by joss whedon i mean it's just it's his show uh this is the 100th episode of the series uh it is the one where buffy dies again um molly rubin yes the body was spoiled for you this was not you were surprised and so let's talk about it no i just had no idea that this was coming i had no idea um i knew that the gift was a well-regarded episode but i had no information about it other than the you know the thumbnail for the episode on hulu is like i think a close-up of glory's face so i knew glory made it till the end of the season i've started paying better attention do you read the descriptions you can't you simply can't yeah you can't like if you read the description for the body you would have been hardcore fucked because it's just like processing joyce's death it's like don't put that in the description of the episode i've started paying more attention to thumbnails in the description since you've like described your journey through and i'm like preemptively so mad about some season six stuff and i'm just sort of like cool it hulu i know be more mysterious yeah i mean i get i you know i'm sure many people who are booting up buffy on hulu are like watching it for the 800th time and they want the cue of like what oh that's the episode where etc etc makes sense but i am like damn there's some like there should be a filter you should be able to put like a filter on it yeah that's a good idea first time watchers yeah and all of the thumbnails are just like the logo yeah it's like buffy holding a stake yeah it would still be great it would work um okay things i things i i didn't know uh and even when i finished watching because i haven't watched any of them yeah season six so i i'm here's what i know i know that there's a season six and i know that there's a season seven which you'll you'll walk us through what level of awareness and understanding and clarity there was on that front in real time for me in the year 2026 watching this i was like on the one hand did buffy just die like i had a real holy shit i i was not expecting that moment but then also because i know there are future seasons i'm like the show's not over but immediately i was like did they think the show was over like was this a potential series finale because it really has that feel not just with buffy's decision buffy's choice but so many of the moments between the characters and the previously on is like the entire series so far so on that front yeah even when i was sitting down to watch the episode hit play the previously on is rapid fire flash of every prior episode i think right and because i did not know what awaited even then still i was like all right are every one of those like weapons gonna come into play i thought there might be just like a plot reason yeah re-watching it going back through for the second time when i knew how the episode ended i was like this is like it's eligible for most emotional moment one of our categories because it's just yeah you know to take you through your history with the show and the characters really just very intense um i thought that the decision with buffy and what buffy did at the end was really interesting and bold and uh i'm excited to talk about it it's not the only reason i really like the episode though i think that the giles buffy scenes and conversations in this episode are like amazing yeah i think that what we hear buffy say to dalin at the end is amazing i think that watching all of the scoobies like look at buffy is amazing i think the xander anya scene is amazing um if this i'm glad it's not the series finale but if it had been given how hard it is to end shows well this would have been like a pretty strong final note for the series and i've told you that i'm not like a huge fan of the final season uh and there are parts of the finale that i think are extraordinary but honestly if if i had to pick this is a better end point this or even the season three season three finale or this finale like it just feels like it feels like we get like a season three finale is the uh the season five finale and then um and then the two that come out you know these feel like different eras but yeah i i i think this is an extraordinary finale and the way it checks in with everyone and the way in which everyone's relationships are so important um it opens with buffy meeting a vampire who doesn't know her which i love as a bookend for like meeting dracula in the season premiere and him being like you are global you know what i mean and then shout out my guy dracula miss him one of our listeners wrote in to let us know that that same year that actor played dracula in a different movie are you gonna watch it yeah what's it called i don't know vlad and me i don't remember what it's called oh my god i okay well i know what i'm well not tonight because i have a lot of work to do but maybe tomorrow night i know what i'm doing tomorrow night that's amazing yeah i love been a long time since i met one who didn't know me was also the bookend inside of the season but just the bookend to like the whole journey you know taking us back to a time before we were actually with buffy where this wasn't every minute of our life and we were like oh my god we're going out of her reality like i mean you're you're the slayer from the jump but like i don't know it was just and the way that that's like a an alley encounter it's just sort of like an interstitial yeah uh between the end of the previous like it's the same conversation in the magic box at the end of the previous episode into like what happens after she just goes outside to dust a vamp you know what i mean and so it's just sort of like yeah this moment so good i like the i like what it tells us about the what has happened and what has happened and what has happened and what has been kind of a constant in buffy's life given how much of this episode and the most i thought powerful and potent moments in the episode are buffy interrogating what it means to have to live a life this way you know the choices i don't want to live in the world like this yeah um xander and anya sex is a coping mechanism for death the way in which like that scene the the scene in this episode the scene previously when they have sex after joyce dies right and anya is like like more about creating life and then xander gets his like i'm not ready to be a death she's like not right now dude i'm just saying like it means something else and so i love that it takes the like anya's horny jokes into the space of like what can sex mean yeah this is like in the best version of this that i don't think they landed perfectly well this is what the like uh aria gendry stuff in thrones is supposed to be you know it's just sort of like we may die tomorrow we may die so let's let's live a little you know on the anya front as well i love that she gets the moments of the episode where she's like uh they're like well what are you contributing and she's like here's nine helpful things incredible an absolute fucking icon so good and the way in which like all these elements from earlier in the season come into play it just feels like such a comforting little tapestry where all the threads have been in place so like the way that the troll hammer comes up yeah the way that the summer summer's blood comes up uh spikes dead slayers you know what what fool for love means like the fact that you watch fool for love or spike is talking about like when it is that slayers die without knowing that that's how the season ends is like wild and interesting to me no question um doc joel gray's character coming back tara's sanity the visions etc etc like all of that sort of stuff and then of course the buffy bot uh the way in which the buffy bot which is like you know i was made to love you is like a funny little jane espenson sex bot episode which turns into this like tough look for our guy spike really tough look for our guy spike decoy moment here i want to read this email we got from our listener bridget about the buffy let's just talk about the buffy bot okay okay it's in this episode it counts right yeah sure she says i do think intervention the episode where in spike fucks the buffy bot many times she can make sketches it's such a great example why spike is a character so many people including me bridget says are enamored with him the buffy bot is such an egad spike what the fuck moment but by the end of the episode spike has almost died to protect buffy and don and has completely won the audience and a reluctant buffy over with his actual heroism slash devotion. Mileage may vary, but that is how she felt. That is certainly how I felt when I was a teenager, or in my 20s at this point, probably. It definitely doesn't excuse anything that came before, but he still chooses to protect others over his own self-interest, and I, Angelus, would never. This is my bone to pick always with the Spike haters, because I'm like, when people compare Spike with a chip to Angel with a soul, I'm like, sure, but let's compare Spike with a chip to Angelus. Like, the things that Angelus does, and the things that Spike, he has his choices limited by the chip. There's a leash on him. I understand that this all sounds like Cope, but. You have a type. He's a problematic fave. Cope springs eternal. Okay. This email is, this is basically my, like, what I was texting you while watching this episode. You're like, oh no, don't make the Spike. And I'm a huge Spike enthusiast. I've just loved getting to it. I've experienced Spike through your eyes, through my eyes. Yeah. I texted you, like, some version of, like, don't fuck the Buffy bot. Don't fuck the Buffy bot. And then by the end, I was, I sent you the Godfather 3 meme. Like, they pulled me back in. So that's the, that is the journey. I mean, Spike, you know, as is always the case, there are some deeply toxic and horrible moments outside of the Buffy bot. I mean, as usual, like, the way he's treating Harmony is just appalling. Yeah, Crush is a fascinating episode. I want to, I do want to quickly finish this email. She says, he's taking the windiest path towards redemption, but it's a hell of a journey to watch. I also think it's interesting that the Buffy bot is a really fascinating inversion of the Madonna horror complex. Despite being a sex bot, Buffy bot is portrayed as rather chaste and pure, down to her very covered blouse and knee-length skirt. But she still fucks. Buffy's sexuality and goodness are not at odds within Spike's mind. In addition, the, quote, relationship itself is quite loving and perverse. He's not interested in a misogynistic power fantasy of dominating the Slayer through violence. Sure, he's corrupting her, but it's more of a, you know, in-the-bedroom way. Rather, he wants to know what it's like to be submissive to the Slayer's goodness. With that being said, despite the Freudian flip, Spike's idea of Buffy is still inherently problematic by reducing Buffy to a slutty saint, for lack of a better word. He still fundamentally misunderstands or reduces the complexity of Buffy as a whole person. We all agree, the Buffy bot's bad. I believe Buffy called it obscene. Yeah, obscene. But he's really just starting to get to know Buffy and has only just revealed his deliberate choice to fully ally himself with the Slayer. Buffy's rejection of the Buffy bot is bad. A Buffy bot, while acknowledging the genuine help he provided, is a fundamental first step toward creating an actual emotional bond between the two characters. And I just want to do a quick, like, what I think is fascinating about Spike's sidebar, which is about the civil war inside the writer's room about Buffy and Spike. So Jane Espenson, who wrote I Was Made to Love You in Intervention, among other episodes, the Spike redeems himself despite fucking a Buffy bot episode, is like the world's number one Spike and Buffy supporter. She loves it. She loves this. Uh, David Fury, who wrote Crush, uh, among other things this season, hated the idea of Spike and Buffy, was getting in fights with fans on, on message boards about their, he was like, I think it's obscene, perverse. Like, I think it's very bad. Um, there's that sequence inside of the episode Crush where, uh, Tara and Willow are talking about the hunchback of Notre Dame and how like, you know, which is just like a very, might as well be transparent, uh, sort of comp for the Spike-Buffy relationship. But I do think that the way in which the, the writer's room were in their own tug of war over Spike's redemption is part of what makes it one of the juiciest, like, two steps forward, one step back, uh, character arc redemption. I think even juicier than something like Sawyer, um, even juicier than something like Jamie Lannister, uh, I'm biased, of course, but I just think that, like, the fact that there was someone in the writer's room was like, no, remember who he is constantly. Yeah. Inside, when you're watching Crush and, like, Drew, bites those humans in the bronze and then Spike drinks from them. And you're like, uh, you know, but Dave Fury's like, that's who he is, man. You gotta remember it. When he makes his, his big, his big speech at the end, he has tied both of them up. Like, yeah, I think that's really interesting to know because I think that manifests in the story in a way that, for me, I certainly understand why there would be people who watched the show when it aired or especially now who are like, this is, like, just, yeah, I kind of can't get with it. Um, I, I love it. I, I think the fact that Spike is, I obviously, of course, love it. I, I, I really do understand, though, why, why people would not. I, um, I, there's a version of it where the questions, the concerns that you would have as a viewer are not acknowledged in the story that is, like, not only not effective, but really galling. Yeah. The fact that Buffy and Spike, inside of their relationship, have so many exchanges about how his behavior, his tendencies, his longing, are, the problems there, but also the other characters. Like, I, frankly, I almost thought this was, like, a degree too extreme in, in this stretch, but when they think that Buffy and Spike are fucking, every single Scooby is, like, no. Right. No. All of them, right? And then you have the balances on the other side of, like, we've seen the affection that, even though Xander's like, so I do get it. I also get it. Buffy's like, I'm not having sex with him. But are you? Beginning to wonder if you are. Great moment. Um, you know, we've seen, we see what Spike looks like through everybody's eyes. So we see the moments that he and Joyce have shared. We see the, the relationship with Spike and Dawn, which, like, Buffy is, at times in this season, very disturbed by, is, like, so compelling to watch because we get to see a nurturing side of, of Spike that is, like, to me, little bit, which is what he calls Dawn, is right up there with Pet in terms of, like, Spike, different buckets of whatever, but just, like, little bit. Come on. Yeah. And, like, you know, you have a moment where Buffy is, uh, basically calling upon him to help. And he's like, that's a lot of, like, manly, I'm going off the dome, but, like, that's a lot of, like, manly responsibility to put on me right away. But we've seen that he's just sort of inclined to do it, actually, right? And so when you're building toward crucial moments in the final episodes of the season where Buffy, there's a rationalization of it. Like, he's the only one who's strong enough to take glory. Even though we will actually hear Buffy say to Willow, you're the only one who's damaged her at all. And Spike has, like, routinely gotten his ass destroyed. Yeah. You know, there are, you're going to have to watch a lot of Buffy copium in terms of, like, the Spike stuff. I can't wait. In terms of, like, her being like, this is fine. So, like, this is my question. They have this incredible, like, one of the best scenes ever, I think, inside of this episode when he says, I know you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster, but you treat me like, a man. And that's, and then he says, get your stuff, I'll be here. Like, he doesn't, he's like, he's, so it's a self-indulgent moment where he's like, let's talk about me for a second. And then he, like, sort of remembers, oh, like, we're doing a thing. Like, get your stuff, I'll be here, right? Again, compared to Angelus's repulsion for anything resembling humanity, Spike being like, you treat me like a man. And that's, like, the most important thing to him. I loved that moment. And part of the reason that I love Spike, and there are obvious ones, he's insanely, hot. He's incredibly funny. One of the things I love about Spike is, like, to me, we've talked a lot about the honesty of the show, the truth of the show, the reality of the show, right? And how the fact that it's supernatural actually heightens that. Of all of the, I want to be careful how I say this because Spike does a lot of, as we just outlined, like, really fucked up things that are not okay. So I don't want to say that that's true for all people. But a thing that I think is true of people, for human beings, is that we are really selfish and always think about ourselves. I just think that's how people are. It doesn't mean you're not also capable of thinking about other people. Hopefully you can do both. But these moments where Spike is like, I want people to see me this way, or how do I see myself? We talked about this a lot with Fool for Love. Like, I just, I just think that he's more honest than a lot of the other characters are. So is Anya. Like, Spike and Anya are sort of the, we got an email about this, or maybe a comment, but, like, this idea of, like, Cordelia being the sort of, like, truth-teller on the show, and when she leaves, Anya and Spike come in to be, like, the truth-tellers. Like, the moments where Spike, where everyone in the Scoobies are like, oh, she's fine. And he's like, she's barely hanging on. Or like, Willow won't do this. And he's like, oh, you really? He's like, I would. He's like, Willow won't? I would? Are you kidding me? Like, what are you blind? So, like, the moments of insight and empathy that he has, or if not empathy, then at least insight, you know, that he has for the people that the people around them who know them best are not willing to look at. Yeah. And so I think, like, I don't know. When you fall in love with somebody, yes, it's about them, but, like, it is also about you. It's about how they make you feel, right? And it's about how you think they see you. And so I just love the way the show portrays Spike's infatuation with Buffy, even though she is often so cruel to him and diminishes him. They're entwined with that. Is that being near her makes him want to be a little bit better, and that's meaningful. You make me want to be a better man, as Jack Nicholson said. I don't know if you want to say this language. It's always on our minds. On that front, in this back half of the season, I would say that, like, while Spike is typically the one misbehaving, Buffy says some really hurtful things to Spike in the back half of season five. Like, I think specifically the, like, you can't love without a soul idea. you know, like you don't know what feelings are. Like Spike is a character feels really deeply he doesn't always know what to do with that but he feels he's a lover boy he always has been he sure is so like you know at the end of of of 18 when buffy impersonates botfy oh buffy yeah just started you're you're in my notes i love it the incredible scene obviously just amazing really funny but the fact that like again i'm such a sucker for this when like someone can recognize yeah when someone's real or not inside of like a genre story well especially because and this is very it really is satisfying none of her friends can tell the difference she's like guys what the fuck like you all thought that was me that's insane but it takes like one touch of the lip for spike to know that it's spike through like one closed eye you know but then what she says to him like that thing it wasn't even real what you did for me and don you that was real i won't forget it he's learning okay so good let's talk about giles what giles does in this episode so like his anger earlier in the episode the way in which he and buffy are at odds in this episode then of course like what he does at the end of the episode which is like she's a hero i'm not by the way let's just add buffy to the mountain of heroes who say i don't kill humans yeah literally in spiral which was just a few episodes previous she killed several knights of the byzantium like she flung them off of moving winnebago and their like cohorts were like uh you killed a bunch of our guys i think those guys were human i mean they weren't like normal but they were human so like more importantly yeah she was like driving to the horses which is not okay that was not okay definitely killed many humans but she and matt murdoch both are like we don't do that so sure yeah um okay um and then the conversation he has with buffy on the couch here um i i asked carlos to do a little mix of one of our favorite season two moments with this uh episode uh 22 moment can we watch this please i don't have a choice you have a choice you don't have a good choice but you have a choice i don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices if everything just gets stripped away i don't see the point i just wish that i just wish my mom was here that's one of my favorite scenes so far yeah i loved it giles and buffy on the couch in the training room um the reason i was thinking about lie to me i was thinking about like the idea of choice is so important buffy in general but like that moral clarity that she has at 16 yeah in a world where her mom isn't dead and like you know all these in her and her boyfriend hasn't uh you know turned into a demon and like all these other things haven't happened to her yet that moral certainty where she's just sort of like you have a choice it's not a good one but you have a choice and she has you know which we agreed with her you know we're not like on ford's uh team inside of that episode but like yeah but like how much harder that that notion becomes after everything that she's been through and then the choice she makes at the end of this episode right she's like these are the choices kill dawn or the world ends and then she figures out i have a choice it's not a good choice but i have one and it's to fling my my body into this uh you know cg terrible cgi and sort of like portal thing abyss thing yeah so um but yeah and and then giles and buffy being at odds inside of this episode yeah uh is so good what did what did you feel about this why this scene resonates so much with you and and giles's uh purpose inside of this episode i mean so on the buffy front first like what what we saw in the clip what we heard in the clip the lead into that the the like reflecting on angel and sacrificing angel and how much she loved him but like no knowing it was right knowing it was necessary and knowing it was right and talking about all of the different apocalypses they've navigated and how they found a way to make to make it through and then saying like i don't have that anymore right it's just devastating you already mentioned this a few minutes ago we were talking about spike but the way that what we hear in in the subway sequence of full for love then kind of washes over us here thinking about that idea of like uh spike is positioning it as a longing right a craving like a need to touch this thing on the other side of the veil and maybe that's part of it because we we do hear but you guys you're right dracula indeed well and i think in the um in the mind palace comatose buffy willow stretch in the in the penultimate um part of what buffy is admitting to herself and to willow and conceding it's like that's where i gave up yeah yeah and so that it's very present on our minds there as well but i think here it's just like it's there's just a hopelessness to it right like i don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices it's just so sad and i think that like because it's a character who you know i love that you paired it with that season two moment what buffy has done for other people and helped unlock for other people but because buffy is a character who we no matter how hopeless it feels we we expect to like find a way forward right um you know i uh i've said before on many many many pods that like the forest again chapter of deathly hallows is my favorite chapter and there's like a there that that was on my mind just in general in this finale like watching what buffy does i think especially the not you know there's that moment with dawn but there's not actually a final moment with everybody else that you know is a final moment very reminiscent of like walking past uh ron and hermione and like not saying goodbye um with giles so you have the fact that they're disagreeing giles is saying um actually like we should just kill vision you know yeah we don't trade lives we don't trade lives but like what if we did maybe that would be the right decision we don't trade lives on so many times i mean it's like it's very hard not to think about that yeah so you know giles is doing the unenviable unpleasant kind of horrible gross thing which is the practical thing yeah of saying there's actually only one path forward now buffy has this like death is your gift i've gone through this journey with the guide death is your gift that gets stuck in my head all the time just the way that that voiceover works it's really good um death is your gift buffy has a you know her journey with figuring out what that means that is you only hers right and so i think that's a really right yeah but still i love that we got this kind of like this conflict between them right before what could have been and i still don't know exactly what you know how it will be undone in season six like the end um because giles is so often a character who i think of as being like really loving and nurturing and tender and he is that in a lot of moments in the back half of this season you know the babysitting the helping with the dishes and the dinner etc but he also is like he can be severe you know and some of that is like the ripper when it when it rears a lot of ripper pops here at the end for sure and some of it is also like the what it meant to be a part of the watcher's council and then reject that but then have to hold and especially because in this stretch of episodes he the watcher's council is back quentin is back and giles has moments where he's like fuck that like you don't you don't get to stand there and say well we have this like greater calling and cause it's like what about the person i love so he has moved in and out of that and i think that's a really good of that circumstance and that also to me feels true to life i think that at the end watching him kill ben him to him saying to buffy kill dawn i assume mileage like may vary for people on how that sits giles going in at the end to kill ben so that buffy didn't have to i thought ruled yeah honestly like it's a horrible thing the way he performs it is just it's so good and there's a like on the one hand it kind of feels like it's a horrible thing to watch but on the other hand like she will she would never do this because it's not who she is it's like she's not faith right this was this was the source of the rupture between buffy and faith yeah but there's also a like buffy doesn't kill humans unless unless other than the legions that she is there's a like she it's not who she is but it's there's also the degree of like and i want to make sure that can be true for as long as possible yeah yeah she she has to lose so much of her innocence in her childhood inside of this season and he's like let's give her this one thing i like what you're the despair the like giving up the all the things that she's feeling about the choices and the end here so that when she makes the decision to dawn it actually is framed as sort of this like hopeful moment of clarity it's sort of a moment of uplift despite us watching everyone be devastated by it happening but like the two big deal lines come out of this episode death is the stretch death is your gift is one of them at least for me i think about all the time and then the hardest thing in this world is to live in it is like i thought that was amazing and absolutely iconic yeah buffy line um i put this in the nose but like i can't tell if i think it's it's like unbearably corny that sarah michelle geller modified the speech in her tribute her lovely tribute to michelle trackberg or it's incredibly emotional i think it's both but i know that i cried a lot uh when michelle trackberg died sarah michelle geller posted essentially this speech uh from the end of uh the gift um but reversing some you and i being the one who's surviving here and um again like i don't know and as you know we'll talk about um next season we'll talk about sort of some of the tribute posts that happened for nicholas brendan but like it's uh because it was from a season six scene of xander's um but like i don't know it's how it's because on the one hand i do think it's how these actors sort of like i don't know performative grief on social media is always something that like makes me feel a little weird you but i do think it's almost like comfort that they're giving for their fandom of just sort of like here's a way to process this it's a it's a story you're familiar with and it's a story we've all shared together and it's a story we can understand okay i've decided it's not corny and it's actually very emotional but like but like it's you know it also doesn't i don't think they owe us their authentic uh grief experience so i think sometimes instead we get this sort of like like through the sheen of something else uh version of their grief and i think that that is great and fine that they should put this distance but also share something with you know their fans who are looking for stability or understanding through something like this so i don't know that's something i grapple with a lot um on fake out deaths or not this is something that you and i talked about uh between uh last week and this week where you were like i'm so curious joanna you hate a fake out death how do you feel like we were talking about this buffy yeah this buffy death here's something that steven denight said um about sort of the buffy death right uh joss kept saying oh she's dead she's dead she's dead she's rotting in her grave he said this on the internet and sure enough she's dead and she's rotting in her grave and how he brings her back it's perfect it's not easy it's never easy coming back it's hard to go home and it will be very much so for buffy so that was something they were saying he said an interview between season five and season six okay so it was like she's dead we're not pretending she didn't die here she is dead yeah okay but she will be back yeah yeah sure and they said that just right away okay interesting the show is continuing she will be back so here's here's um in the summer of 2001 between season five and season six when the show transitioned from warner brothers to upn and we'll talk about that sort of bidding war in a second just because it informs the storytelling here um upn had already picked up buffy for two seat two more seasons okay when this episode aired so the fans who were dialed in which is not everyone not everyone's reading where the the bidding the network bidding physical tv guide yeah exactly um but the fans were dialed in knew that this is not the end of buffy this is not a serious finale even though it feels like a serious finale warner brothers promoted it as a serious finale because it was the last episode that was airing on their network so it's a kind of like petty bitchy move they're like tuned in for the series series finale what a diva but buffy lives this like poster and billboards all red with just her eyes and it said buffy lives uh on upn this fall uh october 2nd uh on upn uh we're up everywhere so like buffy will come back buffy lives like it's happening we're not telling you how okay tune in to find out but that's happening so she's dead she will live again that is something in the fandom news so it's something i feel comfortable yeah telling you i hope that's okay with you it's too late i already did it um we we can save the actual discussion of this for the season six pods when i have more context for how it happens but when we had that conversation the other day one of the we both mentioned the john snow of it all and i said to you like i've that was on my mind what not knowing buffy died but then having the clarity i'm like oh this knowing what this show means to you and the character means to you it's like clearly this has about yes choices in other shows yeah i mean okay so the doc character says it in this in this season when um when don is talking about bringing joyce back he's like you know oftentimes right this doesn't go very well and there's the willow tara like conversation about the the resurrection magic and like all that so like you know it doesn't go like yeah there should be a cost yes we talk about this all the time there should always be a cost and so the way it really didn't occur to me until how well the show engages with the cost of this decision yeah i'm excited to see informs how pissed off i get when it there is no yeah sure seeming cost yeah uh across other stories because i'm just sort of like it this is what i was taught it should be like like when angel comes back from hell sure and he's feral at least for a couple episodes you know there should be a fucking wall um okay yeah and i the only other i don't know really much about season six other than i know people say it's very dark yeah so i don't know how much of that is about this or other things i'll find out so there was here was the bidding ward basically this is like this is a 20th century fox show that aired on the warner brothers network that happens all the time right that like one studio is making it another studio is anyway um the contract was up and fox wanted because they believed buffy was a huge important show for warner brothers which it was they wanted two million dollars an episode they were getting one million they wanted two million dollars for season six and seven and one of us is like wait we can't do that they're like we gotta invest in seventh heaven and all these other shows like we're not we're not gonna invest in seventh heaven um and so they got all the way up to 1.8 but they couldn't get to two but upn was like we'll do two and upn was like a nothing network at this time you know they weren't even the cw yet which they will become but like uh so they said two so what the joss did write this at end of the season as if perhaps it would be the last because his contract was not renewed like he didn't have a place to go while he was writing this episode by the time it aired they knew it was gonna go but he sort of conceived of it as like if this is the end okay if if nobody can figure this shit out yeah let's end it in a way that feels like a solid end so it could have ended here for sure but by the time they like shot it and then by the time it aired like they already knew that they were going somewhere sarah michelle geller had said in the press i'm not going uh the the more the wb is my home and i'm not leaving and then the lawyers were like that's not how contracts work sarah you're you're contracted through season seven now by the end of season seven when season seven rolled around sarah michelle geller's like i'm actually tired of being buffy all the time and so she's actually the reason why buffy ended in season seven because sarah was done so we'll talk about that when we get there interesting um okay but that is that is the gift death is your gift uh what a twist it's her death um anything else you want to say about this episode before we get into our superlatives i don't think so it'll come up in a couple categories sure will let's go down to our superlatives um all right starting with favorite line i'm actually going to give it to the hardest thing is to live in it me too that's such a banger sorry i can't really top it that is just amazing that's really like all-time stuff that's the winner for sure what are you some runners-up yeah what are your winners let's see um episode 15 spike to buffy at the party at the party oh dear if looks could stake i loved that also from that episode buffy to warren this could have gone in horniest or funniest but she's not a toy warren says i know what you're thinking but she's more than that and then buffy says i'm sure she has labor-saving attachments many exciting labor-saving attachments it's just incredible writing um let's see the so on the death is your gift front from episode 18 the guide also says before that love is pain and the slayer forges strength from pain love give forgive risk the pain it is your nature love will bring you to your gift and then buffy's like literally what what this is very funny but i just thought risk the pain was great i really liked that um on a similar front i have a spike line which again just eases the burden of my very lengthy spike category uh answers uh why the blood right blood is life black brain why do you think we eat it it's what keeps you going makes you warm makes you hard makes you other than dead because it's her blood um and i just want to shout out lover's walk when he says love isn't brains children it's blood this has been a spike uh drum he's been banging for a while now but like blood makes you warm makes you hard makes you other than dead and it's the delivery of that line is so good and in the finale i loved that as well um i think my last uh the nominee for a contender for favorite line two willow lines from the penultimate episode from 21 all this it has a name it's called guilt it's a feeling and it's important but it's not more than that buffy i just loved that i loved that and then is it nice that the show remembered that they were friends you didn't ask for this but you do it every day and so you want it out for a Those were more picks about liking the idea than the line itself. Sure. But, like, I think it has a name. It's called guilt. It's a feeling, and it's important, but it's not more than that. It was just really good. Best villain of the week. So, I might be cheating slightly because it's a return. We kind of always cheat on this category. Literally always. I'm not cheating on this category, but. You did last time, and now I am. Yeah. It's eligible for best villain of the week for this stretch of episodes, but they're returning. The return of the Watcher's Council. Oh. Is my pick here. Okay. Not Drusilla. I was hoping you would have Drusilla. Maybe not. But I'm here. I do like the Drew stuff quite a bit. So, you're going to Quentin Travers. I thought. The love of your life, Quentin Travers. This was interestingly done. It's less to me about the council, though I did get a real kick out of the chick in the Watcher's Council. I mean, like. I had that as a deep runner up on horniest moment. Okay. So, right away, they come in, and, you know, so in episode 11, Giles is going to England. There's a lot of Anya comedy that we'll talk about in that category. Yeah. But the idea that we have to seek out their help at all is, like, meaningful and significant given the rift, right? The rift, yeah. So, then they come back, and, you know, not only the rift after Helpless, but everything that we saw with the Faith Buffy, Body Swap episode, all of it, right? You still have this little part of you that's like, oh, I don't know. Maybe they'll be okay this time. No. Right away, they get in, shut down the magic box, threaten to deport Giles. Fuck you. That Giles line, they can kill you with the strike of a pen. That was so good. The insecurity that they spark in Buffy again, right? No one could have done any better than you is something that Giles says in Buffy replies, but no one else is going to be asked the questions that I can't answer. Like, they just take Buffy right back to that place that she was when they ruled her over. She ruled her life. Yeah. Which I thought was really effective to watch. The shameful tactics that they employ that Giles calls them out on. You know, the scandal here is not anything you've done wrong. It's the way they're behaving, holding what they know hostage. And then most effectively of all, of course, is, again, the breakthrough for Buffy. Like, once again, Buffy is able to navigate this and reach a point of clarity. I've had a lot of people talking to me the last few days, everyone just lining up to tell me how unimportant I am. And I finally figured out why. Power. I have it. They don't. This bothers them. It's just so good. Did it feel at all to you now that you've seen Labyrinth, reminiscent of Sarah saying, you have no power over me? Yeah. Yeah. Sky does. Really, really good. You know, better than Olaf, who can say? That's a great one. Olaf's great. Olaf is so funny. I did not cheat. Not in my heart. Really good. What's your pick here? Not Drusilla. Everyone give it up for Warren Mears. No! Yeah. No. Oh, no. Warren. Warren. I was made to love you. Okay. So Warren. Incredible pick. Here's a couple things. Warren showing up and this is how evil Warren is. Yeah. Warren shows up and instead of turning off the sex bot he made because he met Katrina, who he quite liked, he was just hoping that he just ghosted her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let her batteries run out. There's no off switch on April. You couldn't just put her out of her, like, die a fucking bollock hole shit for Warren Mears. And then what is, I think, interesting, honestly, in a way that they don't really even land with glory, are the parallels between Buffy and Warren in this episode. There are parallels between April and Buffy in this episode, like, in terms of, like, how can I shape myself to please a man the way that she laughs at Ben's non-joke at the party, et cetera, et cetera. But, like, I don't know. Like, Warren, in this insidious way, saying, like, everyone deserves to be loved, which is a phrase we hear all the time, which we agree with. We say, everyone deserves love. But he's like, I deserved this. This was owed to me. So I made it. And I find Warren's incel shit so prescient and so important inside the show. No question. So I'm giving it up for her. Okay. Warren bears. Warren just doing the full Ex Machina here before we had Ex Machina. It's really good. Adam Bush, I think, is very, very good. And also the way that Warren is, like, also kind of a, like, there before the grace goes Xander sort of figure as well. For sure. Yeah, for sure. I just, I really, I really like him. Runner Up, I don't know if it counts because he's in three episodes, but Joel Grey as Doc is, like, incredibly good. And when he shows up in Forever and is, like, humming Peter and the Wolf or, you know, like, where you see a glimpse of his tail under his little robe there. Yeah. And, you know, launching that idea of, like, people coming back wrong. And then just, like, showing up, like. Yeah. The tongue is, the tongue won't come up in a later category. Sure will. But, like, the tongue sucks. But, like, Joel Grey is an Oscar-winning actor, star of Cabaret. Like, it's a caliber of performer that they've not had on the show. It shows up for three episodes to play this weird little demon guy. But the fact that, like, Buffy beats Glory. And it's too late because Joel Grey is here to slice. Dressed to impress, too. You know, to slice her open is just, like, he's so. And, like, you know, what he won an Oscar for is Cabaret, where he plays the emcee. And it's, like, the goblin energy that he gives off as the emcee in Cabaret. Like, he's just always been possessed of this, like, very spooky energy. So, even though in Forever he shows up to, like, help, he's so scary. Yeah. And then. The pooling of the black in his eyes is, like, oh, boy. So scary. Yeah. So, yeah. But mostly Warren. I'm absolutely floored by the Warren pick, but I like it. I do feel. I'm putting down a prediction. Yeah. You've said to me every now and then, feel free to make a prediction. This has a whiff to me of the Jonathan, where now I think Warren's back in the show. Interesting. That's. This feels to me like you're priming me for Warren's. I'm just putting it down. We'll see. The thing is, like, sometimes I do this and I'm like, I know that Mallory's going to figure this out. But, like, I can't not talk about Warren. I have to. You could have just done, you know, again, you seem to be enjoying being a troll and Olaf says, I adjusted. No. Warren is. Oh, God. Warren matters. This is a good pick. It is. All right. Best fit. Okay. Okay. I am going with. This is a dual Buffy. This is a Buffy Giles pick when they go to the desert. It's my pick as well. Fucking iconic. Yeah. Both of them. Yeah. Buffy. Actually, my pick is back to back in Forever and Intervention. Buffy is rocking this, like, sort of monochromatic look. At Joyce's funeral, she's got this sort of, like, gray turtleneck, gray pants, gray trench. And then in the desert, like, describe what she's wearing in the desert. So she's in, like, a chunky chocolate turtleneck and this excellent coat. This is an excellent coat. This is a real. This is a real. This is the beginning of an enduring chunky turtleneck era for Buffy Vampire Slayer. It will go through. Well, the final season's a little more fluttery-sleeved blouse. But, like, season six, a real chunky turtleneck. Remember when Riley briefly wore a turtleneck because he didn't want Buffy to know that he was going to the vamp den? Do you think that's better than, like, the little scarf she tied around her neck when she got bit by Dracula? Giles, meanwhile, is in jeans, a black turtleneck sweater, and a brown blazer. And just looks insanely hot. Very good. Insanely hot. Um, you texted me about, which I had not actually clocked in real time watching it, but this is, uh, we should mention here, Spike doing a bit of the. That's in my worst fit. Is it? Is that in your best fit? His Riley cosplay? His Riley cosplay, which we get multiple versions of. First of all, at one point, he's just wearing the initiative cardigan pants and this is a sweater. The Green Army sweater is actually in my best fit category. It's pretty looking. Because Spike begins his pivot towards clingy sweaters, which will. Dovetail into an outfit that I have sent you from season seven. The purple. Yeah. It's, like, absolutely, like, slutty, clingy sweater that he wears in season seven. But the clingy sweater era starts here. Interesting. With the army green sweater. Okay. For sure. The two, we get the, um, the blue button down with the black t-shirt under it and then the green button down with the gray t-shirt under it. Some baggy slacks. I think because he's trying to just, like, it feels like a mind game from him, right? In a way that I. He's, like, shows up at the bronzes. He's drinking a Budweiser. It's all of Spike's food and drink intake at the bronze continues to just delight. Wonderful stuff. Okay. Um, some runners up. Yeah. Joyce's, uh, date night, I was made to love you, halter number. Also just the incredible conversation about. About where her bra is. On the dessert cart. Wonderful stuff. So good. Uh, in intervention, the Buffy bots, kicky little outfit. The little, like, pleated pink skirt with a leather jacket. Uh, love that. Um, Ben in every single glory dress and robe he has to wear. I think he's pulling it off. Ben, a pretty useless character, but I think he looks great in those, uh, dresses. So good job, Ben. Yeah. Um, and I mentioned the, the green sweater and then, yeah, that's it. What do you, anything else you have in best fit? All right. Worst fit. Dear God, what were we wearing? I regret to inform you that in Blood Ties and Tough Love, Buffy wears a skinny sequined scarf, which was just one of the worst things that happened. in the early 2000s. just a razor thin sparkly scarf situation horrid you don't think this one's gonna come back around dear god no low rise bad enough uh what do you have um so i'm also going with something from blood ties which the it's the gift giving for buffy's 20th and she receives uh quote less killy more frilly this paris yeah i don't know what is this i don't know and then everyone is like oh i want it i'm just like i need it giles is like i already have it and i was like what is happening what is happening this is insane what is going on i just did not understand it at all here's the only thing i have to top this which is at at this like i was made to love you party which i'm very confused by who's throwing this party seems like it's happening on campus why is ben a med student there i have so many questions very confused about that why is ben a medicine student there spike a hundreds year old vampire i have no problem with but ben age gap let's back off the 20 year old maybe um at that party willow is wearing a lay over a fuzzy green turtleneck a very classic i'm wearing an eskimo outfit to this party sort of move from willow i just thought i'd shout it out um all right anya's most hilariously blood and or horny moment you've got a clip for this you want to roll it let's do it so are you more uh relaxed no no i mean it sounded like you arrived no yes i had the pleasure moment and the blissful calm that comes right after it but that only lasted a couple of seconds and now i'm terrified again this is the best character in the history of television anya is so perfectly you coded like i love her i would die for her thank you i had the pleasure in the blissful calm that comes right after but that only lasted a couple seconds and now i'm terrified again this is from the finale from uh the gift they're supposed to be looking for the sphere but they went for a quick fuck yeah instead and then they have this exchange and it's just absolutely perfect i have as always with anya 800 runners up but that that was my winner what do you have what's your pick um i already mentioned from i was made to love you she speaks with a strange evenness and selects her words of shade too precisely and xander says well some of us like that kind of thing in a girl and then just like the look she gives him is just like very sweet um but also and i was made to love you oh well when she and tara are talking about the internet which we'll come back uh she says oh well at first it was confusing just the idea of computers was like whoa i'm 1100 years old and i'm not going to be able to do it again i'm not going to be able to do it again i had trouble adjusting to the idea of lutherans that was great i thought that was really funny uh what else what are your some of your runners up oh my god some more but what are you okay so weirdly given that episode 11 triangle is not the best episode or my favorite i had like a thousand category nominees from it yeah and i did think the anya willow stuff was really good um like the way that their respective jealousy and protectiveness like manifested i i quite liked a lot of great anya lines in this in this sequence here's my favorite line in the sequence here's my favorite one note i have for you tell me when annie is like you and xander like cheated together cordelia i don't like it and willow's like gay now and i'm like that's not a great answer you guys did that yeah i would prefer more i would never do that again that was a horrible thing i did not gay now i think willow is like out of pocket that whole episode yeah oh totally which is part of what i like about it actually because we sort of are accustomed to seeing anya misbehave and willow be like super rational and like well-reasoned and willow's kind of you're like that's not a nice thing to say or a nice thing to do and like you actually are stealing and like all that um so a few anya just bangers in this giles saying he's leaving town he's panicked and she's like that's great that's it two words that's great killed me she's so excited that he's getting the fuck out and she gets to run the store um willow of course is just actively like she can't run the store giles is a little more subtle about it it requires finesse to which anya says i have finesse i have finesse coming out of my bottom i can completely lie to the health inspector i can you know distract him with coy smiles and bribe him with money and goods just incredible and then in the willow getting pissed at willow stretch this is how it's sort of we build toward it zander she's talking to giles like i'm not here make her stop incredible because of course then she's doing that exact thing in the argument with willow this was great you're referencing literature i have no way to be familiar with this killed me you're trying to make me feel left out and you're stealing this is so funny um oh oh i know what this is this is peer pressure any second now you're going to make me smoke tobacco and have drugs have drugs incredible stuff that was all from episode 11 my last one is from the body uh you already mentioned this this the santa claus conversation don goes all well he doesn't traditionally bring presents so much as you know disemboweled children but otherwise i love it she's the best a rap really quick episode 12 with the watchers council um when she says you know they don't sound very extreme and compatible i was dying in the i was younger and therefore smaller and shorter than i am now so you spell it like that just killed me i was i was cracking up that was so funny the whole way that stretch was edited um the willow and tara 13 they're trying scoobies are trying to convince buffy to accept the party and willow's like you know what they say the bigger they are and anya says the faster they stomp you into nothing when the scoobies are interacting with dawn for the first time in that same episode after learning the truth that dawn is the key and like immediately uh explaining why buffy and giles kept it from them because they were all terrible at this and then like dawn who has constantly in this season been in close proximity to conversations that don't need to be happening where she could hear them which drove me crazy actually it's used so many times it's really that's a big note i have it doesn't make any sense um that said they conducted conversations at public libraries for a really long time maybe they think it's fine um and anya her a couple a couple of these moments where dawn's like you know everyone gets quiet and i know you're talking about me and you make a very pretty little girl this is anya just trying to be normal sanders like uh anya you want to help me with that thing and anya says ha ha ha sander needs help with this thing killed me absolutely incredible and then she's another attempt to cover as you know us sometimes we like to pretend stuff you know like say there's a fireman or a shepherd just very specific role play scenarios that she's sharing with this child incredible stuff um at the party in episode 15 you mentioned the internet stuff already the tech talk with tara i don't know why the little checks mix thing oh yeah the woven match green patties is so good incredible and then when their response to they're not woven you know is then how like the she's missed the vibe is so good um and then when xander's getting car sick in the in the in the rv in episode 20 and she says he doesn't travel while he's like fine shrimp the shrimp key coming off the bunnies come up again yes the alternate dimension where there's no shrimp tara's like i'm allergic very rewarding um most 2000 thing oh yeah speaking of this the exchange and i was made to love you between tara and anya where tara says i go online sometimes but everyone's spelling is really bad it's depressing is one of my favorite lines honestly sure but i go online sometimes is such a 2000 thing to say uh 2001 i guess is when this was also the role of april was written for do you want to guess is it someone who so it has to be someone who was like known very very very known jessica beale more known but not for acting oh for what singing oh i have no idea dancing uh christina aguilera close brady spears okay i got pretty close yeah close-ish yeah wow ready for brady's she turned it down because she said she wanted to hang out with the scoobies not play a sex bot fair enough pretty good feedback she was a buffy fan she wanted to be on it but she did not want that role incredible wow um that's my most my most 2001 thing a role written for britney spears a connected element actually i had boy bands because when giles is babysitting and the conversation in episode 15 where he's like 14 is too old for a babysitter i'm not doing this again and he says they listen to quote aggressively cheerful music sung by people chosen for their ability to dance and we ate cookie dough and talked about boys um great stuff but yeah that's a cash obviously just cash anya's obsession with cash is a very like time capsule-y thing you know this was just what are you gonna what should you talk about now zell venmo about the fact that they're discontinuing the penny that freaks me out every time i see it it's it's really scary i don't like it either um okay this is one where i i want to take you behind the curtain here for your most 2000 thing yeah but yeah and And while also acknowledging up front that I did not actually, like I intended to this morning, go back to look at it and actually confirm it was this. So this might all be for naught. Is this another bowl cut photo moment from you? No, this is about a pen. Oh. In episode 17, Willow is using a pen. And I was like, I gasped. It ported me so powerfully to this moment in time and using those pens. And then I was like, so I wrote it down. I was like, the pen. That is just, that was the pen. What pen is it? Thank you for asking. This is what. Is it the black, red, green, blue? No, it's the clear plastic with like the, you know, the pad and the color. And you can see the, it's a little thicker. Yeah. And it has the, like the nubbin at the end is also the color of the ink. Yeah. Like a gel pen? But not part of the gel pen craze because it's clear plastic. You're about to. So this was my journey last night Googling it because I was like, what the fuck was this pen called? And I was Googling. Every permutation I could think of, of like clear plastic pen, 2000, very popular, you know, clear plastic pen, slightly thicker, 2001. And finally I got the, the, how do you, is it Pentel? Oh yeah, Pentel. Pentel RSVP. The RSVP. Google it. The Pentel RSVP ballpoint pen. You're going to be like, oh yeah. Oh yeah. See? I have like so many of these. I had so many of these in blue. I had blue and black. I want to say Willow might've been using like purple, but they definitely had green. They had red. I just right away, I was like sitting in Marcy Kaiser's room with those pens. Like it was just like a visceral thing. Did you ever have like a pen that was like your pen? I was a real pilot G2 gel pen for, I would say I still kind of am. You still are. No, I didn't. I wasn't. I did use these quite a bit. I wasn't necessarily. The green. I had more of a, like a yikes pen. Pencil loyalty when I, this was when I was young. It's like an elementary school thing with the fun erasers. That was when I was like a small child. Oh. They were great. They were so fun. They were a delight. Look at them. But a pen loyalty, I don't know. I did, as we've discussed on other pods, probably Buffy pods, maybe Stranger Things pods. I did have a real gel pen. You know, you get all your writing, you're writing on your back of your hands and like everyone's writing on their like trapper keepers and stuff. I said I'm a thousand years old right now. The guys in the control room were like, what are these crones talking about? That was like on Prestige when we found out that Kai, our beloved producer, did not understand the let's all go to the lobby sort of like pre-movie thing. And I was just like, what? What? Dude, I mean. What's happening? Time comes for us all, I guess. Was, are Bloomin' Onions of that moment? I mean, they're eternal, I guess. So not really. They still exist. I think they still are, but really like flourished. They were a big deal then. Yeah. So Spike's obsession with the flowering. Also a sort of flower shaped thing they make from an onion. It's brilliant. That's episode 11. He also says they've got this onion thing. And then in episode 14, he says the flowering onion got remodeled right off the sodding menu. Comes up like a ton. We just talked about the Bloomin' Onion. It will come up again in season six. When were we talking about the Bloomin' Onion? What pod were we talking about that on? I feel like it was Buffy part one because I said it was going to come up in season six and I was wrong because I forgot that it came up in the back half of season five. I feel like it was Buffy part one. Because we were talking about like Outbacks and Chili's and like. It was Lanterns because they went to the Outback. Oh, okay, okay. And then. And then we got to Buffy. I can remember the pins I used. What are these crones talking about? Real that energy. Not a podcast we had a week and a half ago. Terrifying. Horniest moment. We each have a clip. Let's start with yours. Let's do it. I thought. I thought that I made you everything that I wanted, but it wasn't what I really wanted. I'm sorry, but it's over. But I can be whatever you want. I love you. I'll do whatever you want. Would you like a neck rub? No, no. The only part of that that actually matters. So you also love Warren Mears. Let us commit to the record the following. When we get to see the menus. Yeah, the heads up. Fetish. Best underscore lover. Obviously amazing. But when you go down the snappy dresser, kissing, sex, praise, neck rubs, fetish, fetish, one fetish, two fetish, three positions, one, two, three, four, five, six. How many sub menus are there? We have no idea. And then, you know, the follow up in episode 18 with the bot fee menus. We have some positions there, too, but it's a little more tame. I'd say. Make Spike happy. Kissing. It's very sweet. And then position. Warren Mears is a real sicko. Something to think about. What's your clip? I'm excited. Let's play it. You better not be thinking what I think you're thinking. Because my answer is the same as always. No threesomes unless it's boy, boy, girl. Or Charlize Theron. That's my pick for funniest moment. Incredible. This is just unbelievable. I just want to celebrate her. This is Harmony's last appearance on Buffet. But she shows up on Angel. So more incentive for you to watch Angel. But this is when she's like, say goodbye to this. That's Mercedes McNabb exiting Buffet Vampire. Does she have any threesomes on Angel? Tune in to find out. Oh, man. Great stuff. I have some runners. Oh, well, Joy's talking about her bra. Yeah, that's the runner up as well for me. OK. Great stuff from Joyce. In Forever, when Angel comes back, and as I told you, I cried. This will come up again. But when Angel comes back, and he says, I can stay in town as long as you want me. And Buffy's like, how's Forever? Does Forever work for you? That's a bad idea. I'm seriously needy right now. And he's like, let me worry about the needies. I can handle it. And then they make out ferociously. And then she's like, I told you, you better go. Like, I'm going to fuck you if you stay, right? And he's like, I'm sorry. But here's my follow up. And the eternal Angel versus Spike conundrum. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In this idea of moment of happiness for Angel, and a lot of people have different. Is it just the orgasm? Is it just sort of like basking in the afterglow or whatever? Could he not have like gone down on Buffy the way that Spike does for the Buffy bot? And just sort of like, it's about her pleasure, not about his moment of happiness, but her neediness and her moment of happiness. Something that I think would have occurred to Spike, but does not occur to Angel. And that's what I think is true. First thing Spike does. What a generous, giving lover Spike is. To the robot. That's also my list. To the sex body, Bill. And then, of course, the watcher who did her thesis on Spike. Yes, great one. You know, just one more brief moment to celebrate the minions and glory here. A lot of incredibly horny stuff. Glory in a towel, sopping wet, hugging Jinx, saying, oh, sweet, lumpy minion, you're the only one that understands, probably because I haven't sucked. And you're like, your brain out. Yeah. What is? Oh, creamy coolness. Creamy coolness is something that Dreg calls her. Yeah. Jinx calls her glittering, glistening, glorificus. So, you know, the compliments are flowing, but they are sexy in nature. Oh, definitely. Creamy coolness. I mean, if Angel could just keep the creamy coolness in his pants, where would we be? I have a technical question. Go ahead. Does he have to, like, because if he, like, comes in the Buffy bot, does he have to, like, empty the Buffy bot? Unless it has some sort of, like, self-cleaning mechanism. I mean, I think Warren was using his April bot. Like, you do an RV, like, when you, like, you know, drain an RV. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you can't just let it build up forever until it explodes. I hadn't thought about that, and I credit you, my beloved, for making me think about the details. I appreciate you. Oh, my God. Incredible. Incredible stuff. Let's pivot to Giles' most dad moment. Great. Mm, God. I had the, we listened to aggressively cheerful music sung by people chosen for their ability to dance. We ate cookie dough and talked about boys as a very dad moment. I had just an insane number of contenders here, but I have a clip for my winner, actually. Let's do it. To slay, to kill, it means being hard on the inside. Maybe being the perfect slayer means being too hard to love at all. I already feel like I can hardly say the words. Buffy. Giles, I love you. Love, love, love, love, love, Giles. It feels strange. I just thought that was very important and magical, his hand on the shoulder the whole time and just telling him that she loves him because he's like her dad. This is great. I was made to love you as well, right? That is from. Or is it. Episode 18. Oh, okay. Also a sexpot episode. Got it. Classic. Great. Other contenders? What else you got? Yes. Let's see. The hokey pokey moment. Incredible stuff. From Intervention. Yeah. And then from Spiral when he's literally like dying and he says, so proud of you, everything a watcher. And then he corrects himself. I. Could have hoped for. That's my second. That's my second. That's my second. Second place one as well. I mean, incredible. I just had to lead with like babysitting and hokey pokey. to get to the emotion. But there we go. I don't know where I was like, they're not going to kill Giles, are they? I mean, impaled, you know, speared while driving this caravan. A real wash in a Firefly. Way to go. That's right. Very tough. What else from Giles? I liked all the, again, the Watcher's Council stuff, the kind of whisper yelling, like I'm not having you put her through another one of your insane tests. They're all very comforting, bloodless ways of looking at it, isn't it? She's not your bloody instrument. Just all that protection. Oh, I mean the body stuff. Yes, of course. When Buffy says to Giles, like, they picked the perfect thing. I can't lose you. That's just so good. Let's see. Oh, this is just like a visual. But in episode 14, when Buffy comes home and Giles is there, she's out with her friends and he's like protecting the home front because they think Gloria might come. And he's just sitting there at the desk, sipping tea, reading a book, keeping an eye on Don and Joyce. And I was just like, I mean, it doesn't get more dadcore than that. My heart. My heart was melting. Again, I actually thought, given the history between like Xander and Spike and Giles and Spike, this didn't overall totally land to me in terms of where we would find those characters. That said, still eligible for this category, I think Giles in episode 15, after they've all realized that Spike is in love with Buffy, going into full like stay away from my daughter mode. Oh, I had that in Daddy. Because it felt very Ripper to me. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not your friends. We're not your way to Buffy. There's no way. There's no way to Buffy. It was kind of hot. I'd say like crowd Spike against the wall. Man. Very good. Yes, everything in the body, as you said, in episode 18, doing the dishes, cooking. Yeah, doing the dishes. All of that was just so good. Let's see what else. And then we've talked about the other stuff. She's a hero. You see all that, you know, killing Ben so she doesn't have to. Really good Giles stretch. Yeah, a weak first half, but a really strong second half. Yeah. Laughably bad digital effect. Do we both have Doc's tongue here? How is this not the fruit by the foot? Secret lizard tongue. It's gotta be. I mean, it's just like, it's very bad. Wild stuff. I don't, there actually were not a ton of other contenders. No. For this. No, they got all of their weird snake stuff out of the way in the first half of the season. I love that that came back into play where Buffy's like, this was where I lost the snakey wakey. So this will plot our course to glory. Great stuff. Dawn. She sure is here, huh? I mean, Blood Ties, I actually think is a very good episode. Yeah. Her like, her cutting herself freak out, her scene with Joyce. I do enjoy, and this is just like a funny moment, in Blood Ties, Buffy being like, how was school today? And Dawn says, the usual big square building filled with boredom and despair. And Buffy says, just how I remember it. And also, as I mentioned, Dawn remembering Ted and I was made to love you. Oh, that was incredible. What do you have? You know, as we've mentioned, for Donnie, the Dawnster. The Dawn-Spike bond overall and just their storyline was, I thought, really good. Little bit. Niblet. Wonderful stuff. My pick here is episode 17, The Inversion. Dawn, who has gone on this pursuit to resurrect Joyce. Ill-advised pursuit. Oh, yeah. Dawn being the one to tear the photo. Yes. When Buffy, and they've had this fight, you know, you have to, you have me. No, I don't. I didn't mean to push you away. I didn't. I just couldn't let you see me. It's very, very intense and emotional. Very good. And then, you know, and we're cutting to the shuffling feet. The feet walking. And it's like, oh my God, like, are they gonna, I didn't know. You see the silhouette in the window. Yeah. I'm like, are we gonna, it's like, zombie Joyce is about to be back in the show. Like, what is gonna happen? And then the knock and, you know, Buffy has said, don't do this, don't do this. But as soon as we hear the knock, Buffy is the one who's like mommy and runs to the door and Dawn has to find the strength to protect Buffy from that. I think Forever is a great episode. Really good. Really good. Yeah. I really love that episode. So that's my pick. Giles's most daddy moment. I have a clip. This is for you. Oh my God, I'm thrilled. Well, they're probably already on their way. Our old friend, Quentin Travers, is heading up a delegation. They put me through that test and almost killed me. And then when I was fate, they almost killed me again. Honestly, I really can't handle almost being killed right now. I don't like the sound of this. This is a visual. It's about the. It's so hot. It's insane. The unbuttoned shirt and the chest hair sort of spring out. And I just thought you would enjoy looking at that. So that's for you. I just find him absolutely magnetic and mesmerizing. Mine was kind of also a visual. It's actually a sad moment that you've already talked about. It's in episode 17 when Joyce is listening to Tales of Brave Ulysses and he's sitting and he's playing cream and he's got a glass of brandy and he's sitting in his chair and it's this very intense thing but he. I'm sorry. He looks so hot. He just looks so hot. And I can only be me and I was just like blown away by how hot he looked. That's so good. So that's my pick. Let's see. What are some other contenders here? Like as per usual, I have a lot of violent ones. Violent ones, yeah. So it's like when he kills Ben, when he intimidates Spike, and then in Tough Love when he hurts a minion while everyone else is looking away. Yeah, I had that too. And then he's just like really proud that he intimidated him. Intimidated him. Also, I like. You hear like a crack. He like broke his fingers or something. And he's, I mean, a ripper, like you said. Similarly, when Buffy says, Giles, that Travers guy is like 60. I can't hit him. Can I? And Giles is like, I suppose no. Well, I could. I think I will. And I was like, do it. Do it. In episode 11, even though Drool is involved, I don't know if it's meant to be sexy, the central library alone and Buffy's like, don't talk about books again. You get all. I was like, yeah, he does. And sometimes there's Drool. I was like, I'm in. I've heard all I need to hear. He's the best. Oh, God. I just love him. I shake my gourd. That's the thing we heard Giles say in this episode or this stretch of episodes, episode 18. That's what it's all about. It was really funny. All right. When Will cries, we cry. I mean, I thought there were kind of two main contenders, right? There's obviously there's two main contenders. There's the body and the scene we already talked about at length, which like I think is the pick. But because we talked about that so much already, I will take a moment instead to highlight the Willow Tara episode 19 focus, which in a couple different. There's an evolution of what we mean by when Willow cries here because the argument, which I thought was amazing. It frightens me how powerful you're getting. That's a weird word. Like, no, of course, right? Frightens. It frightens you. I frighten you. And the way that Willow is so hurt to confront these concerns that Tara has. Don't you trust me? Yeah. Right? With my life, that's not what I mean. I just thought that was amazing. What is it about me that you don't trust? It's not that. I worry sometimes you're changing so much so fast. I don't know where you're heading. Where I'm heading? Like, there's just kind of the confusion and the despair that Willow feels in that moment. And then we build a couple scenes later toward her scene. She's mere steps away, but not in time to stop Glory from brain-sucking Tara. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I mean, that was just heart-wrenching. The fight you mentioned from Tough Love, that episode's written by Rebecca Rand Kirshner, who is another writer who I could sort of, like, spotlight. But she did, she joined in season five. She did Tough Love. She also did two really important season six episodes, Tabula Rasa and Hell's Bells, which we'll talk about when we get there. But she's really good at, like, really hard relationship stuff. And, yeah, I loved, I think Tough Love is really good. I think the Tara Willow stuff in Tough Love is really good. I don't always love, like, the Tara insanity plotline that follows. All of this sort of, like, funny insanity stuff on this show is, like, weird to me. But everything leading up, and then, like, I mean, the bench scene is harrowing when Glory shows up, slides her little fingies in Tara's hand, and then just, like, crushes the shit out of her. How horrible. And also just sort of, like, all these people, and you can't do anything because I'll kill all of them. Right. Like, it's just, like, I think that whole part is really good. What comes after, I have some questions, but, like, that's good. Yeah, I agree. It made me think of, like, Stranger Things season three a little bit with the use of the fair and the idea, the juxtaposition of this kind of, like, portrait of Americana, you know, the mall, the fair, whatever, and you're like, this horrible thing is happening right here and does anybody notice? And then in that same episode, that, we alluded to this earlier, but Willow pushing back when Buffy tells her not to go fight. Yeah. I love this. You know, this is not your choice, it's mine. This is not the time, Buffy says. When is Buffy when you feel like it? So when you love as much as I love Tara, I was like, yeah, fucking go. Go. Breach. And then, yeah, then, like, Willow showing up and, you know, fighting Glory is very good. I was concerned. It was anxiety-inducing. I was worried. See, Joss Whedon has made you scared that he's going to kill any given character. Yes. The Hulu thumbnails, however, have made it clear to me that Willow survives. Alas. A lot of Willow thumbnails to come. I did try not to look at them, but at some point I did. Oh, dear. It's the spite category. Oh, my God. I can't wait to see what you pick here. And we have several clips. You should go first. Have we met? Hit me with an axe one time. Remember, get the hell away from my daughter. You got any of those little marshmallows? Let me look. get out of this house or I will stake you myself you're a very bad man passions is coming on passions oh do you think Timmy's really dead oh no no she can just sew them back together he's a doll for God's sake what about the wedding I mean there's no way they're gonna go through with that care Joyce was the only one of the lot of you that I could stand and she's the only one with a daughter you wanted to shag I'm touched I liked the lady understand monkey boy she was decent didn't put on airs I said a nice cuppa for me and she never treated me like a freak sad a celebration of spike and Joyce through the seasons I liked the lady I know really gets me ah yeah that's a great one what a compilation thank you Carlos for putting all of those clips together that I sent to you late last night hopefully you have funnier ones uh yes let's do my pick for funniest I'm not sampling I'll have you know look at all these lovely blood-covered people I could but not a taste for spike not a lick I knew you wouldn't like it you want credit for not feeding off bleeding disaster victims well yeah I mean that can certainly go in the most spike bucket so good so that's my pick for funniest I have some other contenders there as well but let's do my pick for Um, even I cannot bring myself to put this in hottest, so this is going in most Spike. Okay. Oh, Spike, you're the big bad. You're the big bad. I mean, most Spike exists for that moment. Our guy did not just go to Warren and say, make me one too. Yeah. He said, have her say, I'm the big bad. I'm the big bad. Whoa, fucking her. Oh, my God. In the cemetery. Astonishing stuff. Memorable, important, astonishing, incredible reaction shot from Xander and Anya there. Just wild. What are some of your other contenders here? And I was made to love you at the mysterious aloha dance. When Buffy is flirting with Ben, Spike is in the background. And, like, deeply out of focus. But James Marster's just giving all of this, like, anxiety body language for Spike watching them flirt, which is just incredible. In Triangle, Xander says, so, uh, think I should run and get Buffy? And Olaf says, barmaid, bring me stronger ale and some plump, succulent babies to eat. And Xander says, I'm going to run and get Buffy. Or maybe you could fight him. And Spike goes, yeah, I could do that. But I'm paralyzed with not caring very much. Just very Spike. In that same stretch when Olaf says, do you know where there are babies? And Spike turns to Xander and just goes, what do you think? The hospital? Spike, no! In Blood Ties, Spike painting his nails. Buffy interrupts him painting his nails. Spike saying, I wasn't lurking, I was standing about. Completely different vibe. You can buy many different t-shirts that say this on them. Historic line. I wasn't lurking, I was standing about. I loved that. That was so good. And then you already mentioned this. But I generally think the most. Spike moment is the intervention. Like Buffy pretending to be the Buffy bot moment. Because it has everything in there, which is just like, hey, it's absolutely disgusting and repulsive and obscene. Gross and obscene that you made this Buffy bot. But also you did this other thing. And she gives him like a genuine kiss, which like probably she shouldn't. But she does do that. And he's like swoon. But also I'm all beat up and my hair is tousled. And yeah, it's a it's a lot of luck. So. So that's my incredible. I think the most. But because it just has everything all together. And then I do want to shout out. They don't use it very often when they do. It actually really works. Spike and Xander chemistry when they go on their little like side quest in in way to the world. I think it's really good. And the whole bed is glory. Glory has been stretch hysterical. When Xander starts it again and spikes like this will be worth it and smacks him upside the head. And they both say. At the same time, like I think spike and Xander Xander, of course, is going to hate spike forever because that's who Xander is. But like when they do jam together, it's really actually fun. So, yeah, I I quite enjoyed the like. Are you all high? Like if you all just smoked a bunch of. Yeah, that was all really funny. Let's see. Hottest spike moments. Ton of contenders. When he says you're all I you're all I bloody think about. Dream about you're in my gut. In my. Throat drowning in your summers. I'm drowning in you. I can see that Drusilla and Buffy are both chained to the wall. As he says that in episode 14. So, as usual, we have some notes. But then he says that you're like, whoa. Episode 15. If you want me to leave, you can put your hands on my hot, tight little body and make me iconic. I really apologize. I mistakenly put that in our previous pod. But of course, it is for this. Yeah, absolutely. Iconic. As I already mentioned, going down on Buffy. That's certainly. Eligible for the hottest spike moment pick here. We already did the blood. That's it's always got to be the blood. The way he delivered that was very powerful. I like just commentary on Giles is writing for the funniest category in episode 13. We already learned to write so bloody small from a fruit. Killed me. Good Lord. Giles writes as dull as he talks, doesn't he? That was great. Let's see. Yeah, I had the I loved the standing about exchange as well. That's certainly. That's certainly on my list. Also from that Don conversation in episode 13. Is that supposed to scare me? And he sighs and he says a little tremble wouldn't hurt. That's like such a great spike moment. Let's see. All the weird Buffy sex stuff feels very more appropriate in the most spike than in the hottest. I think. I just don't know how to talk about the Buffy bot stuff in a way that makes me seem like a progressive feminist person. Petting the. She's like, where's my blue cashmere sweater? And then we got to spike. Petting it. Or we've talked last spot. And then Harmony has to Harmony dress. That's actually my role play with Harmony. Harmony. Harmony in the like khaki bootcut cords or whatever. And the blue sweater. Really funny. Wild. And then all of the like, I'm kind of attempting to have a normal date stuff that he does. Like and Buffy's reaction when he reaches across to the glove compartment for the flask. And she's like screams and recoils. What is this a date? No. Do you want it to be? Incredible. You can't deny it. There's something between us. Loathing. Disgust. Heat. Desire. Wonderful. The other sex bot stuff, you know, you're evil and that excites you. It excites me. It terrifies me. Are you afraid of me? Yes. Should I start this program over? No programs don't use the word. Oh, my God. Again, the way that they're like lampshading how like. How obvious the dynamic between Buffy and Spike is. Where it's just sort of like, I'm drawn to your dark. Like all, you know, like they're like, we're going to make fun of it. But also it's very good. It is. Just very good. It is. We're like, do you feel like, I mean, I know you enjoyed Spike when he showed up in season two. But like, how is your Spike journey going? Like. Oh, it's wonderful. I mean. He's only growing in your eyes in terms of. Growing. Growing. Growing in a way Angel just can't, you know. No, I love. I love Spike. I'm having a great time. I just think he's like kind of mesmerizing to watch. Deeply flawed and problematic, but. That's part of it. Hot and compelling. Yeah. Like. I love all the backslides. The backslides are really good. And we feel weird about rooting for him, but then we do anyway. All right. Funniest moment. Hmm. In. I don't know how to pick. I have so many, but I will say in Tough Love. Yeah. When Willow says, well, I took Psych 101. I mean, I took it from an evil government scientist who was skewered by her Frankenstein-like creation before the final. But I know what a Freudian slip is. Incredible. Really good. My winning pick for this is the Harmony clip that you played. The Harmony discovering Drew as Spike and the clip that you played, the threesome one. Hysterical. Relatedly later when she shows up. And we haven't mentioned it, but like a great Spike. A great Drusilla episode. Really good. Wonderful. Always fun to see her. A delight. When Harmony shows up later and shoots Spike with an arrow and is like, what about me, Spike? You forgot about me again? The actual girlfriend? And you're like all in. You're like, Harmony, yeah, go. Do it. And then she's like, I gave you the best bunch of months of my life. And it's a classic Harmony moment. She kills me. I'll miss her. I'm sad to know she's gone. What else? Let's see. I liked, in general, the way other characters described the minions. Kind of mean, obviously. But amusing. Jawas, right? Tell my sister I'm sick of running into her Jawa rejects from Ben. And then Xander winning the day with kind of like hobbits. With leprosy. Yeah. Really good. Spike with the goggles in the Winnebago. spiral hysterical and incredible visual uh we've already mentioned the ben and glory stuff in way of the world is uh legendary stuff of legend in the gift uh when buffy is like if you fuck with don i'll kill all of you and spike goes well not exactly the saint christmas day speech was it giles says we few we happy few and spike says we banned a bugger that was great very good um talking about the bronze rebuild insurance doesn't cover acts of troll um and then the minions yeah yeah just like shout out to we talked about drag uh so drag is kevin weissman who uh of alias fame big kevin weissman fan so it's like it's funny to like i can see his face under the prosthetics you know what i mean i'm just sort of like there he is there's a guy i know but the other two main ones jinx which is troy blendell like just comes into the show just like runs away with it unbelievable but shout out gronks lily knight uh who has all the scenes with ben she's really fun incredible i'm really a fan so yeah the minions humor is really good the minions are fantastic in episode 12 when uh minion brings glory the mailman to brain suck and it's ah very good delicious like just this kind of commentary track for what glory is doing is so funny yeah really really kills me uh let's see what else hmm that's why we've hit we've hit a lot of the big ones all right most emotional moment um i do have a clip for this this is not my pick but i already told you that the angel moment really like got to me him showing up i like just forgot he was in forever so like when buffy's standing graveside and night turns to dark and then he just like slips his hand in her hand and it's just like oh angel's here yeah i love this scene um and uh as i mentioned once they're no longer on the same network it is much harder to like have scenes like this contractually uh but this is what our listener lou wrote in to say once he leaves the show angel fulfills his original planned purpose which is a guardian angel figure as the series goes on and buffy gets stronger it is really important that people in her life operate as checks on her power this means often calling her out questioning her and keeping her humanity and humility intact but buffy is so often the one who has to wrestle with the life changing and world changing choices her body is the one that takes on all the violence and trauma she is definitionally isolated a lot of the time she's the chosen one and my heart hurts and breaks for her in the moments where she stands alone and is at odds with the scoobies then angel arrives in her moments of loneliness he comes in and reminds her that there is someone in the world that will unconditionally be on her side he comes through not to save the day not to take her away from all this he is not the knight in shining armor but to give her that piece of him that will always be hers again and again and that is so often what she needs in those moments when he comes back a moment to breathe free in the world that exists only between them she doesn't know who's in his life and he doesn't ask about who is in hers it's a shelter well except for when he fights with riley it's a shelter of a person who is untethered from the complications of your life but will forever know you anyway and i really like that yeah um but my emotional moment belongs to someone else can we play this film please and give my love to my friends you have to take care of them now you have to take care of each other you have to be strong i mean it's all of them but most especially spying oh man sorry but the way that spike saggers into this and there's sun so he has to like crouch like he's he's crumpled by despair but also there's sun there so he has to like crouch down to be out of the sun so like it doesn't belong there uh but is there anyway and then like you know i mean we've talked about allison hannigan's cry face it's incredible amazing uh anthony stewart head is giles so good uh etc etc but like james marster's it's all fantastic full head and hand sob i can't top it it's so good sorry um i mean this category is a loaded one this time like for mostly because of episode 22 and 16 which we already talked about at length but like they're just they are devastating moments they are so heart-wrenching the previously on for the whole series the vampire who doesn't recognize buffy and the kid she saves in the you're just a girl that's what i keep saying the refusal to let dawn die and then the last thing she'll see is me protecting her like all the stuff we've already talked about the the i you know i don't have that anymore moment and then yeah the hardest thing in the world is to live in it it's all devastating all of it incredible all of it incredible i have one more from the very important i was made to love you think amazing i can't i do generally think april and buffy on the swing set is like yeah very emotionally devastating as her battery is like drained down and as buffy is lying to her about warren and stuff like that and it's just like i that really gets me it is really good yeah katrina's spine somehow intact yeah how is katrina alive i don't i have no idea how katrina is alive uh that's a good one i yeah i had some other word mirrors once again engineering tremendous moments for us i mean yeah is warren the greatest like scientific and technological mind i assume he's going to become not just an insult but like an evil tech oligarch we'll see um that episode 18 what you did for me and don that was real i won't forget it moment is that hit me hard i certainly think that's eligible here um in episode 17 forever the when buffy is talking to angel about everything that's happened i love this the yeah the funeral was brutal but it's tomorrow that i'm worried about that whole exchange what's tomorrow that's exactly what i don't know up until now i've had a roadmap things to do every minute everybody expects me to know how to do it um strong like all of that and then obviously the the joyce um mommy moment at the end there uh at the end of the day i think my pick like just has to be the body and anya's speech i don't know how it couldn't be but everything else is just devastating as well guess what it's a really hilarious horny uh action-packed uh groundbreaking devastating show i thought that the back half of this season was really excellent really really really excellent mostly because of warren but also because definitely also because of olav exactly and quentin oh man oh i only have two two seasons left sad i'm really curious how season six lands with you i'm really really curious again i've really appreciated every single time i've re-watched it and then season seven i haven't re-watched so we get right together that's exciting so i i do like a dark season so that i like that won't bother me marty noxon is like having watched what she has made post buffy you can really like reverse engineer sort of like what's interesting to her um and so yeah i just think for all you know joss whedon created my favorite show of all time is a deeply problematic dude without question that's understating it uh you know created this great story about like what it means to be a teenage girl and all this sort of stuff like that but for marty noxon a like hey this is what it means to be a young woman yeah and uh find yourself i mean obviously there are incredible supernatural circumstances of like right i died yeah okay yeah but like also just the choices we make as young adults and and this is you know how we feel about them and they the accomplishment but also the like the the missteps and the shame and all that sort of stuff and i just think that like having a woman running that season you know and and the uh the villains that are picked for that season i think is is really interesting so intriguing yeah hi i'm excited all right um that is buffy season seven we'll be back sometime we don't know when with season six couldn't tell you and uh we've got a lot coming up for sure um i don't know if you heard but football has started among other things um you have a super bowl prediction um i heard it was their year yeah was last year the year you went all in on the lions no i've never i have i was at an off-season prediction you made this year there was some lions moment for you because of a friend of yours who roots for the lions yeah probably like an episode where i was like i'm interested in the lions but all in is a deeply inaccurate word all right so lions ravens detroit baltimore the blue collar super bowl battle that we've been working for years honestly deserve honestly what is what's your prediction currently lions ravens genuinely yeah really yes kind of i i do think and i really i it's hard to repeat which makes me less inclined to pick seattle i do think seattle's very good um the rams are unbelievable but it's something about like i've thought for the last three years that lions ravens can happen and it hasn't so i'm like why not that said i am the world's biggest jared goff doubter so same um that has been buffy season five handsome football bonus football talk uh should we do a football corner every week how many days uh do you look in the mirror and go how did we hire joanna robinson at the ringer.com uh literally zero days ever what i do every day is how did we get so lucky that we hired joanna robinson here at the ringer what a fucking thrill and privilege uh we are thrilled and privileged um yeah by our team that's right our scoobies carla shirboga jacob burnett scott scotley arjun arun kapal dummy a dinner on what a squad uh carlos is going on vacation that's right for a couple weeks so deserves it really deserves it big time um we'll be back with Lanterns yes episode 5 can't wait and uh I love you I love you too thank you for watching Buffy with me thanks for thanks for bringing this into my life what a profound joy thanks to all the bad babies who uh wrote us so so so many emails great emails and left comments and have shared stories about how they're watching for the first time or re-watching because it's their favorite or you know whatever the case may be truly truly exciting to go on the journey with all of you and we'll be back soon bye ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease symptoms don't pause for the moments that matter that's why understanding your treatment options matters discover what's possible with Trimpia Gucelcomab Trimpia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis serious allergic reactions increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur before treatment get checked for infections and tuberculosis tell your doctor if you have an infection flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine talk to your doctor and explore what's possible or call 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